ARCHIVED -  Transcript - Banff, AB - 1998/06/10

This page has been archived on the Web

Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.

Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages

Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.

In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.



Examen des politiques relatives à la télévision canadienne/
Review of the Commission's Policies for Canadian Television

Hôtel Banff Springs
Banff (Alberta)
Le 10 juin 1998

Banff Springs Hotel
Banff, Alberta
10 June 1998


Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes
Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission

Transcription / Transcript

Consultation régionale / Regional Consultation

Françoise Bertrand Présidente/Chairperson
Susan Baldwin Directrice exécutive/Executive Director
Cindy Grauer Conseillère/Commissioner
Joan Pennefather Conseillère/Commissioner
Laurier LaPierre Modérateur/Moderator

TENUE À:                            HELD AT:

Hôtel Banff Springs                 Banff Springs Hotel
Salon Van Horne                     Van Horne Ballroom
Banff (Alberta)                         Banff, Alberta
Le 10 juin 1998                       10 June 1998



1 Banff, Alberta

2 --- Upon commencing on Wednesday, June 10, 1998

3 at 0905/L'audience débute le mercredi 10 juin 1998

4 à 0905

5 1 THE ANNOUNCER: And now, A Town Hall

6 Meeting with the CRTC, sponsored by Procter & Gamble.

7 2 THE MODERATOR: Good morning.

8 Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs.

9 3 Mon nom est Laurier LaPierre, et

10 j'aimerais bien vous souhaiter la bienvenue à cette

11 aventure, which is known as a Town Hall Meeting, with

12 the Chair of the CRTC, two national commissioners of

13 the CRTC, and one of the most important persons who

14 helps these people to do what it is that they do to

15 you.

16 --- Laughter/Rires

17 4 I would like to inform you that this

18 is a session that is slightly different from the ones

19 that we generally do. This is part of a process. Many

20 Canadians complain that they do not have access or

21 input in the CRTC, largely because they feel they have

22 to travel to the headquarters of the CRTC or wherever

23 they are in hearings. So the CRTC has kindly agreed to

24 travel across the country in order to hear what they

25 call, euphemistically, "ordinary Canadians" who may




1 have something to say about the evolution of the

2 Canadian broadcasting system.

3 5 Therefore this is a golden

4 opportunity for you to have your way with them, in the

5 sense that the past and the present and the future of

6 the CRTC as an institution and its decision-making

7 process is open. However, I must warn you that the

8 commissioners may answer questions that deal with the

9 decisions that they have taken and the process which

10 they use, but they cannot deal with decisions that are

11 forthcoming, because they haven't made them yet, and

12 since they are in a quasi-judicial situation, we would

13 like to protect that.

14 6 We do not of course, since we are a

15 friendly crowd and it is a beautiful day, expect any

16 confrontation. We just expect to have a lot of

17 pleasure and fun.

18 7 Mme Whissell, who is over there, is a

19 court stenographer. She is taking, in a sense, your

20 deposition, because all of this is part of the record

21 of the CRTC and will go to assist the commissioners in

22 taking the decisions that are very important for the

23 Canadian broadcasting system and programming in the

24 forthcoming century.

25 8 If that is all understood, we can now




1 proceed. The idea is that there are no questions from

2 me, I am merely the carrier of the mic. Therefore, if

3 you wish to speak or make comments or ask questions of

4 the commissioners, you will please raise your hand and

5 I will rush to you. I would be grateful if you would

6 raise your hand in anticipation, to the end of the

7 person who is already speaking, because by the time I

8 get to there, half of the program will be over.

9 9 Madame Bertrand, vous avez des

10 remarques à faire au commencement, nous souhaiter la

11 bienvenue, peut-être nous dire de belles choses

12 encourageantes?

13 10 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Écoutez, invitée de

14 telle manière, avec plaisir.

15 11 Je suis très heureuse, avec mes

16 collègues, d'être ici aujourd'hui. On vient faire un

17 peu de "brain-picking" très sérieusement. Nous voulons

18 profiter de l'occasion du forum qu'offre le Festival de

19 Banff, avec des gens qui ont une expertise et une

20 expérience immenses en matière de télévision, et qui

21 sont réunis ici pour réfléchir et penser à l'avenir

22 donc d'une façon très créative, nous voulons, avec

23 vous, parler de télévision, de ce qui nous tient à

24 coeur, et de faire en sorte surtout d'écouter.

25 12 We are here to listen. If you have




1 any questions that you need clarification, we will be

2 happy to try to help you in any matter where you feel

3 that need, but mainly what we came for is to listen to

4 you. It is part of a long process that started in

5 Calgary last week, where we held a town hall meeting

6 with citizens and viewers. We will be doing the same

7 in many cities across Canada, but we felt that we had

8 the opportunity of coming to the Banff Festival,

9 invited by Pat Ferns, and we felt that we could not

10 resist the real opportunity that was given to us. So

11 we are here to listen.

12 13 There are the ones who are here, but

13 we have also colleagues in the audience, and please

14 just feel free to talk about your opinions, what you

15 have on your mind.

16 14 In order to maybe give a framework to

17 the focus on the television public hearing that will be

18 held at the end of September, which is really the main

19 focus of our discussion today, I would like to read an

20 element of the preface of that public notice that was

21 published, to give you the scope of our inquiry.

22 15 "The Commission's goals for this

23 review of its regulatory and

24 policy framework for television

25 are straightforward - further




1 the development of a strong and

2 viable programming industry;

3 ensure that Canadians receive a

4 wide range of attractive and

5 distinctive Canadian program

6 choices; facilitate the growth

7 of strong broadcasting

8 undertakings; ensure that the

9 Canadian broadcasting system

10 meets the needs of Canadian

11 viewers and reflects their

12 values; and, implement the

13 public interest objectives of

14 the Broadcasting Act (the Act).

15 In particular, the Commission

16 wishes to explore how all

17 participants in the system can

18 work effectively to strengthen

19 the Canadian presence on our

20 television screens and to

21 support a healthy broadcasting

22 and production industry, capable

23 of competing successfully at

24 home and abroad. At the same

25 time, the Commission will wish




1 to be assured that the public

2 interest objectives of the Act

3 are well served."

4 16 LE MODÉRATEUR: Merci bien, madame.

5 17 Allow me to introduce to you the

6 members of the delegation. First, Madame Susan

7 Baldwin, who is the Executive Director for

8 Broadcasting, Madame Bertrand, you have already met,

9 Mme Joan Pennefather, who is a national commissioner,

10 and Mme Cindy Grauer, who comes from British Columbia,

11 and who is a national commissioner.

12 18 Are you ready? Tu es prêt? Alors tu

13 vas commencer. C'est très simple -- tu vas commencer.

14 19 Put your hands up, and I have a mic

15 over there as well.

16 20 MALE SPEAKER: I thought you meant --

17 no, I'm not ready to speak. I thought "ready to go"!

18 21 THE MODERATOR: Are you trying to

19 disturb my meeting?

20 --- Laughter/Rires

21 22 THE MODERATOR: Over there, please.

22 23 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic) against

23 violence on television (off mic). We have to step away

24 from violence.

25 24 THE MODERATOR: Excuse me. Could you




1 give your name please, for the record. Would everybody

2 do that, please.

3 25 FEMALE SPEAKER: Bonnie.

4 26 THE MODERATOR: That does not often

5 happen, madame, that you have that, hey? But it's

6 Bonnie. Everybody knows that.

7 --- Laughter/Rires

8 27 THE MODERATOR: Madame.

9 28 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is

10 certainly an issue that is really important to the

11 Commission. As you well know, we were involved heavily

12 in a process a couple of years ago, but the concern has

13 not ended with the process and there has approached

14 privilege to work with the industry, and that has been

15 really very proactive with the cable industry, the

16 distributors, the specialty channels and the

17 broadcasters, in order to adopt a classification system

18 and to really raise the awareness by having a logo on

19 the screens. That system has been in place since last

20 September, if I recall correctly.

21 29 That is definitely still something we

22 monitor very closely, and we will be pursuing those

23 issues on the very broad elements of pornography, also

24 on television, the Pay-Per-View. Those elements are

25 all social issues that will be certainly followed up




1 after the television review policy.

2 30 THE MODERATOR: Do you want to add

3 something to that?

4 31 FEMALE SPEAKER (Bonnie): Yes. I am

5 glad to hear that, and I know that a lot of our future

6 lies in your hands, and you will do a good job.

7 32 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.

8 33 Monsieur. Je viens.

9 34 MR. ROBERTS: Good morning. Bill

10 Roberts, from NANBA.

11 35 On behalf of everyone here I would

12 like to applaud Françoise and Susan and the other

13 commissioners for this process of public access and

14 exchange and accountability. I think it's terrific.

15 36 My question relates to the issue of

16 simultaneous or non-simultaneous substitution. A year

17 or so ago, there was a postponement on the Commission's

18 part for exploring non-simultaneous substitution and,

19 Françoise, I noticed that in the current television

20 review there are questions pertaining to simultaneous

21 substitution.

22 37 I just want to get a sense of, is the

23 Commission coming at this from the perspective of

24 broadening its attitude towards simultaneous

25 substitution, to go back and revisit non-simultaneous,




1 or is it tending more in the other direction of looking

2 at whether or not we still need simultaneous

3 substitution per se?

4 38 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well frankly,

5 before we did the strategic planning at the Commission,

6 which gave birth to the Vision Plan, which really has

7 been the demanding plan that has involved everyone, and

8 I apologize for that, for giving work to everybody, the

9 issue on the table was: Should we consider advanced

10 substitution?

11 39 But, doing the exercise of the

12 Strategic Plan at the Commission, we felt that there

13 was a need to a much broader review. And after having

14 done many changes in the framework of

15 telecommunications, we felt that there was a need to do

16 the same in broadcasting, so what we thought of doing

17 instead of going at a piecemeal approach and looking at

18 substitution, we needed to review the entire landscape

19 of television policy, and that's what we're doing this

20 summer and going into the fall.

21 40 That question then is certainly

22 included in that review. It will be raised, but we are

23 open. We have no point of view in terms of saying it

24 has to be done, it has to be narrowed, or it has to be

25 broadened. We know it has been a very important levy




1 in terms of the economics and the capacity of reaching

2 out some viewers, but we are questioning like we are

3 questioning every dimensions of the policy. And thank

4 you for your comment.

5 41 THE MODERATOR: Madam.

6 42 MS BAIRD: Nini Baird, British

7 Columbia.

8 43 I see in your Action Calendar that

9 you are going to be establishing a public consultation

10 process in the fall on new media. Would you care to

11 elaborate on that process.

12 44 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, with pleasure.

13 45 We feel that the new media issues is

14 really one that is developing at rapid speed. What we

15 would like better is to see how the world will really

16 unfold and wait to have a more stabilized environment,

17 but it's impossible. It's important that we see where

18 are the links with telecommunications and the

19 broadcasting universe, and also that the objectives we

20 are pursuing, not necessarily the tools, but the

21 objectives we are pursuing, where we can do the

22 bridges.

23 46 We are particularly concerned with

24 matters of access -- access to the infrastructure for

25 the citizen, and also access to the infrastructure




1 where there would be no gatekeeper for the creators.

2 47 THE MODERATOR: Are you satisfied?

3 48 MS BAIRD: (Off mic)

4 49 THE MODERATOR: Oh, my God, I knew

5 it! I knew it.

6 50 MS BAIRD: Could you describe the

7 public consultation process that you intend to engage

8 in the fall.

9 51 MS BALDWIN: The process for the new

10 media will be a public hearing, so it will be a formal

11 public hearing with a public notice that should be

12 issued within the next month, which will outline the

13 general parameters of the kinds of things that we want

14 to look at.

15 52 There again it will be a notice much

16 like what you have seen for television and in the past

17 for radio, which is no pre-determination of issues but

18 rather a desire to understand how to build an enabling

19 framework that is much broader, that is looking much

20 more forward, and I think it will be important for the

21 new media process to know that this is not intended, at

22 least at this stage, to be a decision document. It is

23 meant to be a document more like the convergence

24 document issued by the Commission previously, which set

25 out the issues, identified where existing policies




1 were, where there were policy gaps, and asked the

2 questions about how we should implement.

3 53 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.

4 54 Number 1.

5 55 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic) from

6 Calgary.

7 56 Many of the proceedings of this

8 coverage are being carried on the Internet (off mic)

9 told me yesterday that they are not regulated (off mic)

10 57 Then the specific question, I

11 understand the United States has agreed (off mic)

12 58 THE MODERATOR: So we have two

13 questions. Madame Baldwin?

14 59 MS BALDWIN: Generally speaking, with

15 the Internet, what you are describing is part of the

16 reason that we want to have a hearing in the late fall,

17 to understand exactly what the issues are, how it is

18 being used.

19 60 I think it's important that we're not

20 calling it an Internet hearing. Internet, frankly, is

21 a distribution system. The issues of new media are

22 issues of content, of access, of dealing with the

23 public interest. So we will look at that very broad

24 range.

25 61 The second question with respect to




1 taxing the Internet is not something that the CRTC

2 addresses at all. That's for the Government.

3 62 THE MODERATOR: So you are the only

4 body in Canada who says that you don't tax.

5 --- Laughter/Rires

6 63 THE CHAIRPERSON: Some would say the

7 licence fees is quite a tax!

8 64 THE MODERATOR: We are going to get

9 you elected!

10 65 Thank you very much.

11 66 Monsieur.

12 67 M. NORMAND: Merci. Robert Normand,

13 Télé-Québec, Montréal. Je m'adresse à vous en ma

14 qualité personnelle et non pas à titre officiel.

15 J'aurai l'occasion de le faire à ce titre-là en

16 d'autres circonstances.

17 68 Je voulais d'abord vous féliciter de

18 sortir de cette tour d'ivoire -- où les juges ou ceux

19 qui sont assimilés à des juges siègent

20 habituellement -- et de descendre prendre le pouls de

21 l'opinion publique, le pouls de ceux qui sont

22 intéressés.

23 69 À cet égard, je trouve que ces town

24 hall meetings ou ces forums de discussion sont

25 invalables, mais ils ont leurs limites, même s'ils sont




1 très bien dirigés sous la main habituée de Laurier

2 LaPierre. J'ai eu l'occasion d'ailleurs, dans une vie

3 antérieure, de participer à plusieurs de ces town hall

4 meetings à la Commission Spicer -- je vois mon ami Fil

5 Fraser, qui était un collègue également à cette époque-

6 là -- et j'ai pu me rendre compte que souvent dans ces

7 town hall meetings, ce sont des intérêts bien pointus

8 qui viennent nous présenter leur point de vue, ou

9 encore des forts en gueule, un peu comme moi ce matin,

10 de sorte que il ne faut pas croire que ces town hall

11 meetings là reflètent vraiment l'opinion de l'ensemble

12 de la population.

13 70 Dans cette voie de mieux consulter la

14 population, je vous engage à ne pas vous limiter à ces

15 town hall meetings là, mais à utiliser toutes sortes

16 d'autres techniques pour bien savoir, à l'aube de

17 décisions importantes que vous aurez à prendre --

18 savoir si vous devez faire naître un grand nombre

19 d'autres canaux spécialisés -- si vous devez imposer

20 aux téléspectateurs canadiens le paiement de sommes

21 importantes pour avoir accès à des canaux spécialisés

22 dont ils ne veulent pas nécessairement toujours.

23 71 Je souhaiterais que pour pouvoir

24 prendre une décision éclairée, le CRTC à cet égard

25 fasse une consultation la plus large possible et aille




1 le plus possible voir les usagers eux mêmes et non pas

2 uniquement les représentants institutionnels, comme

3 ceux que vous verrez l'automne prochain ou que vous

4 voyez, jusqu'à un certain point, aujourd'hui, et

5 j'aimerais avoir vos commentaires à cet égard, après

6 une trop longue question.

7 72 Merci.

8 73 LE MODÉRATEUR: Merci bien, Monsieur

9 Normand.

10 74 Madame.

11 75 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur

12 Normand.

13 76 Alors, écoutez, il faut bien savoir

14 qu'une rencontre comme ce matin, les town hall qu'on a

15 faits à Calgary et qu'on fera dans plusieurs villes,

16 fait partie d'un long processus dont bien sûr

17 l'ensemble des commentaires écrits qu'on recevra et

18 l'audience publique, mais en plus, nous préparons des

19 recherches actuellement, dont un sondage auprès de la

20 population, pour lequel on cherche des partenaires et

21 on va cogner à la porte intensément du ministère du

22 Patrimoine pour avoir un partenaire, pour être capable

23 vraiment, bien qu'un sondage n'est pas un referendum

24 non plus, mais à tout le moins à avoir vraiment le

25 pouls le plus exact possible du citoyen dans l'ensemble




1 des provinces canadiennes, pour s'assurer qu'on ait

2 vraiment une lecture aussi juste que possible.

3 77 Alors on comprend bien votre point de

4 vue. On le partage, et on va aller aussi loin que

5 possible pour obtenir la meilleure information

6 possible.

7 78 THE MODERATOR: But for Canadians

8 also to participate, I think you have in your

9 documentation a Website, I understand, that people can

10 write, people --

11 79 THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely.

12 80 THE MODERATOR: And you have offices.

13 Could you explain all that to us?

14 81 THE CHAIRPERSON: It was part of the

15 strategic plan we have done, the Vision Plan we have

16 done. We understood that the public process of the

17 Commission is really like the core of our way of making

18 decision, and that it was already very positive and

19 very interesting, but we had to enrich it, enhance its

20 level.

21 82 Because of that, we felt that there

22 were voices that we were not hearing as often as

23 others, so what we did is we have been trying, by

24 different means, to reach out and really ramify our

25 capacity of hearing and taking into account all the




1 opinions. For that, what we have done is being very

2 active on the website, doing town halls, doing polls,

3 doing more private kind of meetings where -- on

4 invitation, but with a public record, we have been able

5 to establish round-tables -- that's the word I was

6 looking for.

7 83 So we are trying different means. If

8 you have any suggestions where you think it would help

9 us to hear other voices, be more open please. Feel

10 free to participate in our think-tank about that as

11 well.

12 84 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.

13 85 He is now ready. He is standing up.

14 86 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)

15 87 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'll let Susan give

16 some explanations, but I would like to reiterate the

17 importance of the independence of the Commission -- but

18 being independent doesn't mean that you live in an

19 ivory tower, as we were referring to earlier.

20 88 As much as we have been trying to

21 hear different voices, we have been really working hard

22 in establishing bridges so that it establishes links

23 not only with citizens, communities and stakeholders in

24 the broadcasting and telecommunications industries, but

25 also in Ottawa. And we have been active with the




1 Copyright Board and many other -- Industry Canada and

2 Heritage Canada, to at least know what we are doing,

3 and to share our strategic plan so that we don't take

4 anyone by surprise, and we try to converge as much as

5 possible in terms of taking into account.

6 89 Maybe Susan can give more precisely

7 how it works.

8 90 MS BALDWIN: Again, as Françoise

9 mentioned earlier as well, we have invited a number of

10 other organizations and groups, and accepted requests

11 from them to come and meet with commissioners and

12 staff. We have met with the Copyright Board, the

13 Public Interest Advisory Committee, the Competition

14 Bureau, so that it really is important, as we develop a

15 policy framework, to understand the issues from all of

16 those perspectives. And that kind of sharing of

17 information is precisely what is going on.

18 91 With respect to the production

19 interests, again you will see in the television public

20 notice a very strong link to understanding the

21 independent production industry and all of its aspects,

22 its importance and its integral nature with respect to

23 the broadcasting system and the objectives.

24 92 One of the reasons for doing a Town

25 Hall in Banff was to very much get that kind of input,




1 because many in the production industry are here, and

2 it gave us a very good opportunity to understand the

3 needs and objectives from that industry as well.

4 93 MS ROBISIS, Toronto Star: Salut, les

5 filles -- je l'ai dit.

6 --- Laughter/Rires

7 94 First, a suggestion -- you asked for

8 suggestions, Françoise. The first one is, I would love

9 to see --

10 95 THE MODERATOR: Are you speaking as a

11 reporter or --

12 96 MS ROBISIS: I am speaking as a

13 citizen of Canada, Laurier. Is that okay?

14 97 THE MODERATOR: Yes, but is that a

15 question for a press conference?

16 98 MS ROBISIS: No, no, no, because I

17 can just call any time, but I think some people would

18 like to hear the answers to this.

19 99 The first question is -- it's not a

20 question, it's a suggestion. You said how can you

21 reach the people. Sometimes I think, and maybe this

22 may sound immodest, but I think of myself as sort of a

23 medium between the industry and the public, and one of

24 the things that has hampered me in my job is the

25 closing of the CRTC office in Toronto, which means that




1 if I want to go through all the documents, yes, the

2 website is great, but if I want to see all the stuff

3 and all the channel applications and stuff like that, I

4 have to travel to Toronto.

5 100 When I used to go to the office in

6 Toronto, there used to be a lot of students from

7 Ryerson and York and stuff doing research, and if those

8 documents aren't there, a huge population, and indeed

9 the entire industry, has to spend a lot of money to

10 shlep back and forth to Toronto.

11 101 Now, my question. Earlier you said,

12 and I guess you were reading from the Public Notice,

13 that your aim is to strengthen the Canadian production

14 sector programming and at the same time to support a

15 healthy broadcasting industry. I would like to know

16 how that can be done without sticking your hands in the

17 pockets of the people even further.

18 102 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand or

19 Madame Pennefather, or Madame Grauer.


21 very important question I think. Certainly what we are

22 looking at is all imaginative ideas that you could

23 bring forward to the Commission on exactly that point,

24 "What are the ways by which we can assure strong,

25 viable Canadian production for as long as possible?",




1 because that's at the core of what we're trying to look

2 at. We are looking at television programming, we are

3 looking at Canadian content within that programming.

4 104 I think we have achieved a great deal

5 of success over the past few years, just looking at

6 Banff over the last several years, and the other

7 evening at the award show, it's very heartwarming. But

8 there are new challenges, a new environment, and we

9 want to make sure that the regulatory framework is as

10 flexible as possible, and in that process come up with

11 new ideas for the financing of programming.

12 105 MS ROBISIS: May I follow that up?

13 106 THE MODERATOR: Before you do that,

14 may I follow up on the comments you have made.

15 107 Are you going to reopen the Toronto

16 office?

17 108 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are looking at

18 solutions right now to -- I don't think we will reopen

19 an office as such, but we are looking at ways, for

20 example, to maybe make agreements with some

21 universities to have a centre of documentation that

22 could be consulted, and we are looking at partners that

23 would be natural, and we thought that law schools and

24 communications schools would certainly be the obvious

25 ones, and we are looking at possibilities to do that in




1 all the provinces.

2 109 THE MODERATOR: I will give you a

3 short supplementary -- "short" is the word.

4 110 MS ROBISIS: Further to the question

5 about the hands in the pockets of the people, when I

6 got here the big talk was broadcasters wanting to

7 access the funds, and Telefilm, et cetera, directly,

8 and Ms Copps told me the other day that broadcasters

9 are going to have to put their money where their mouths

10 are, since for the past 30 years they have avoided

11 doing Canadian drama production all of a sudden, and

12 "rah, rah, rah".

13 111 But Ms Copps did say that it was

14 really essentially up to the CRTC. Any hints of where

15 you are going to go?


17 at the beginning, we're looking at all the options.

18 The --

19 113 THE MODERATOR: So they may go down

20 that road.


22 actually the Public Notice does lay out that very

23 clearly, that there a number of options that we want to

24 look at. And sorry about the Toronto office answer,

25 but I'm a new kid on the block, so I didn't have that




1 information.

2 115 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think one element

3 that is important about that process is, contrary to

4 some other events we have had, or processes we have

5 had, what we are asking, which is very demanding, and

6 we apologize for that because it means a lot of work,

7 it's a framework we are looking for. It's not only "we

8 need more of this" or "we need more of that", it's

9 looking with us on what could be the elements that

10 could balance themselves in order to make sure that we

11 have an interesting framework going forward, given that

12 we have to take into consideration local presence,

13 regional news, national news, as much as sports.

14 116 That cannot go out of the

15 broadcasting universe, and all the under-served

16 categories are still very important, but it has to be

17 balanced at the same time with, what do we mean in

18 terms of the cultural objectives we are pursuing, along

19 with the Broadcasting Act, but looking at the capacity

20 of paying and the finances behind, because if there is

21 no economics, there is no possibility to support a

22 cultural objective.

23 117 That's why it is very demanding, the

24 process we are initiating, because it's not only "more

25 of this", it is, "How do we do the 'more of this'?", is




1 the question we are asking everybody.

2 118 THE MODERATOR: Number one.

3 119 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)

4 120 MS BALDWIN: I think there are a lot

5 of things that we need to learn about new media. As I

6 hear you describe the current system and relate the

7 current broadcasting system to new media, it makes me a

8 little nervous, because if I look at new media, I could

9 describe it equally as a broadcasting system, as

10 fitting under telecommunications, as using a publishing

11 model, as using a real estate model.

12 121 What I really think we need to

13 understand is, what is the right model for new media?

14 What are the criteria by which we want to establish how

15 that model is going to work? How do we want to look at

16 the issues?

17 122 If we set out the issues for new

18 media, they are the larger issues of access, of public

19 interest, of finding Canadian content. Is the issue of

20 Canadian quota even a realistic question in terms of

21 the Internet? I think that that is the very nature of

22 what we have to define, what we have to describe, so

23 that we understand it before we go forward to make any

24 decisions about it. It really is understanding the

25 framework, and then positioning the questions, and




1 understanding where we have to go from there.

2 123 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.

3 124 Sir.

4 125 MR. DODD: Mike Dodd.

5 126 My question is backtracking a bit to

6 an earlier question, about the closure of the Toronto

7 office.

8 127 I think it's fair to point out that

9 people in various regions of Canada, other than

10 Ontario, have had the same problem with CRTC access,

11 that has been mentioned -- with the closure --

12 highlighted in the Toronto area with the closure of

13 that office.

14 128 So, realizing that government has to

15 make trade-offs on availability of data, the cost

16 efficiencies, et cetera, I think the way to go would be

17 to actually increase the access from remote locations,

18 such that Internet is an application of that, but I

19 think that proving insufficient, I would like to see

20 the resource going more into making information

21 available from a central database, the people need not

22 necessarily be physically present at.

23 129 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.

24 130 Madame Bertrand, vous vouliez ajouter

25 quelque chose à cela?




1 131 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I think we are

2 working on solutions that would be closer to people,

3 and although it's on Internet and quite easy to access,

4 we understand very well that Internet is not in all the

5 businesses or homes, so we have to really find ways

6 where it's easy to consult and --

7 132 THE MODERATOR: And I understand by

8 the end of 1999, every library in Canada, and every

9 school in Canada, every classroom in Canada, is going

10 to have a computer and be linked to some sort of

11 system. We look forward to that, Madame.

12 133 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's the Throne

13 Speech promise, and I have nothing to do with this. We

14 are working hard at the Commission in terms of making

15 sure the infrastructure will be there, but that's not

16 our promise, that's the Throne Speech.

17 134 THE MODERATOR: I know, madame, I

18 know.

19 135 Number one.

20 136 MS TREMBLAY: My name is Liliane

21 Tremblay.

22 137 (Off mic) on retrouve dans nos

23 régions, et particulièrement dans celle de Québec,

24 quatre grands réseaux de télévision (off mic) sont dans

25 l'impossibilité totale d'acheter des produits,




1 d'acheter des licences ou de produire à partir (off

2 mic)

3 138 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ce que je peux dire à

4 ce moment-ci c'est qu'au niveau du processus que nous

5 entamons sur la révision de la politique, nous avons

6 une préoccupation en ce sens. Notre préoccupation de

7 là où on vient a permis de grandir et de faire en sorte

8 qu'on arrive à des succès assez intéressants, et très

9 souvent les semences de ça sont trouvées dans des

10 petites villes, dans des régions, et pas nécessairement

11 dans les grands centres de production auxquels vous

12 faites référence.

13 139 Conséquemment, nous sommes préoccupés

14 par, est-ce qu'il est toujours important d'avoir ça

15 aujourd'hui? Si oui, comment le soutient-on, parce

16 qu'on voit bien que dans les réseaux, et de langue

17 française et de langue anglaise, ou enfin dans les plus

18 grands groupes de radiodiffusion, à cause de la hausse

19 de certains coûts et de la nécessité de rationaliser,

20 il a fallu peut-être ne plus avoir tout à fait la même

21 présence, et c'est vrai tant dans le réseau public

22 qu'en le réseau privé.

23 140 Alors, en effet nous sommes

24 préoccupés par ces questions, et lorsque nous faisons

25 les town halls, pas juste ici aujourd'hui mais comme à




1 Calgary, je suis certaine que partout c'est de ça dont

2 on nous parle. Les gens sont inquiets de se revoir,

3 parce qu'on parle beaucoup avec les États-Unis de

4 l'importance de l'image canadienne pour le contenu

5 canadien. Bien, c'est vrai dans l'ensemble des régions

6 du Québec, ou du Canada, les gens veulent se retrouver.

7 Donc c'est une question qui est à l'ordre du jour dans

8 la révision de la politique.

9 141 LE MODÉRATEUR: Mais que seraient les

10 éléments pour en arriver à une solution de la

11 difficulté régionale versus le consensus? C'est à eux?

12 142 LA PRÉSIDENTE: C'est à eux, bien

13 sûr.

14 143 LE MODÉRATEUR: Très bien.

15 144 Mr. Horowitz -- Professor Horowitz.

16 145 PROFESSOR HOROWITZ: My name is

17 Norman Horowitz, and I am from the United States of

18 America. My question I guess is a United States of

19 America question, quite obviously.

20 146 Even including Jack Valente, what

21 issues would you like to address as to the

22 uncomfortableness that you have with whatever is going

23 on, either in the private sector in the United States

24 or in the Federal Communication Commission, or other

25 regulatory authorities, that you feel have not been




1 either properly addressed or addressed in a manner that

2 you're not comfortable with? Tough question.

3 147 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well --

4 148 PROFESSOR HOROWITZ: And talk about

5 Valente -- I love him a lot.

6 149 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's an interesting

7 question, and we have on international bridging, the

8 same way we have done it here, we felt that there were

9 some very privileged links we had to establish and of

10 course with the States, and we went to meet with the

11 people from the studio and we met with the FCC.

12 150 Frankly, I should say from the point

13 of the CRTC that although sometimes it has been an

14 interesting dialogue and much closer to debate, yet I

15 think when we take the time of explaining the situation

16 of the market here in Canada on how it works and that,

17 yes, we have Canadian content requirement, but it's not

18 against it's really in order to make sure that we make

19 space and that we are one of the markets that is most

20 open, and not only in the English market but as well in

21 the French market, already creates a different

22 perspective.

23 151 More seriously, I think also that

24 there is a definite different perspective from the

25 Americans and the Canadians on television more




1 precisely. For Americans, television is a business, is

2 a trade, is commerce, and it's called entertainment.

3 For us, it is a business of course, it has that

4 dimension, but in the Broadcasting Act what is very

5 important and the objectives are all matters of

6 identity and cultural objectives.

7 152 So we are not exactly speaking -- not

8 only from the point of view, but we are speaking

9 different languages. So we have to recognize that.

10 That doesn't mean we will agree at the end of the

11 conversation, but at least it gives the right

12 perspective.

13 153 I think when I explain, and

14 everywhere I go -- usually if I have an American

15 audience, I explain how many programs we know here and

16 how many channels we get here, and in comparison I

17 don't think we can expect, in the next two years, and

18 even 20 years, to have the equivalent in the States,

19 and I think we have to repeat on that issue many, many

20 times.

21 154 Susan has a long experience, as much

22 as the Commission, in the Heritage Department where she

23 was before. Certainly she has some elements of her own

24 to add about this.

25 155 MS BALDWIN: Well, I'll walk right




1 into this one.

2 156 THE CHAIRPERSON: You're invited to

3 do so!

4 --- Laughter/Rires

5 157 MS BALDWIN: What I would really like

6 to see is more openness in the U.S. broadcasting

7 system, to allow greater diversity of content. I

8 really think that offering the kind of choices to

9 people, that frankly are offered within the Canadian

10 broadcasting system, would be extremely valuable.

11 158 The second thing I would like to see,

12 Françoise chairs an international regulatory forum that

13 is linked to the International Institute of

14 Communications. We have had three meetings. It is a

15 forum simply for an exchange of views.

16 159 It does not have the status of

17 treaty, it does not set requirements, it does not ever

18 intend to regulate on an international level, but the

19 participation, which allows for an exchange of views,

20 learning from others, is extremely important, and we

21 have not had a U.S. representative at those meetings,

22 and that would be very valuable for all of us who are

23 participating.

24 160 THE MODERATOR: So will you take that

25 back to the United States, sir, and see to it that it




1 is done.

2 --- Laughter/Rires


4 that -- again, the difficulty, speaking as, and as

5 mentioned some time this morning, that Moses Znaimer

6 referred, several Banffs ago, six or seven years ago,

7 that "I'm glad to see once again the running dog of

8 American cultural imperialism", and I said to my panel,

9 no, that's not right, I'm just plain and simple the

10 running dog of American imperialism, without the

11 cultural aspect of it, because we don't have any, so

12 it's nothing to be running around with.

13 --- Laughter/Rires

14 162 PROFESSOR HOROWITZ: So if -- the

15 difficulty was, and I have run some companies in the

16 United States, and they were all regulators in the

17 United States, who would you like to see go, and what

18 meaning would it have? I could go and say it's

19 absolutely terrific, and have zippo effect on the

20 process, and I don't know who could have an effect on

21 the process in America.

22 163 MS BALDWIN: The forum itself is

23 designed for heads of regulatory agencies, so those are

24 the people that we are looking for, so that we really

25 can discuss it. Assuming that in most cases the




1 regulators are as open as we are to getting all of the

2 issues and what we learn out on the table.

3 164 I have another line for you.

4 "Running dog of American imperialism" -- I remember a

5 speech from John McLennan at the IIC, and he described

6 Canada as "the canary in the coal mine of culture".

7 --- Laughter/Rires

8 165 THE MODERATOR: I won't let you deal

9 with that!

10 166 Mr. Miller.

11 167 MR. MILLER: Peter Miller, from the

12 Canadian Association of Broadcasters.

13 168 Actually, I would like to pursue the

14 international discussion, because I think one of the

15 privileges of being in this place is both standing in

16 the mountains, in awe of nature and the world, and also

17 sharing thoughts and experiences with colleagues from

18 around the world. I am very curious to hear from

19 you, Madam Chair, and members of the Commission, some

20 of the thoughts that you might have come up with in

21 your discussions with international regulatory

22 colleagues. Do they share a similar vision of the

23 future of regulations? Do you think there will be much

24 more of a common approach around the world, and I am

25 particularly thinking more outside of the U.S.,




1 obviously, than within the U.S. Is that a very

2 promising area? Obviously it is a very exciting area.

3 169 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's a forum that

4 was born last September, so it is still a very new and

5 fragile initiative, but strong in terms of the needs

6 recognized by each country.

7 170 The interesting point of convergence

8 is the very fact that instead of the meeting of

9 strictly the regulators of broadcasting or of the

10 regulators of telecommunications, it's really reuniting

11 all the regulators, to talk about convergence, to talk

12 about common issues, and what has been done

13 respectively in each country, to compare notes and

14 really do some comparison so that we learn from one

15 another.

16 171 Never was it in our mind to first

17 install a new layer of regulation, and I think it would

18 be really, even for us, regulator, a fear that we

19 wouldn't want to envisage, but we feel that it's

20 important that we come at it in an independent way, the

21 same way as you are coming to the Banff Festival after

22 a year to repair the future and to repair once again

23 the difficulties, what are the successes, and compare

24 your work. That is exactly what we intend to do, the

25 common agenda is about how the world is changing, our




1 role, our mandate, and also enunciate what we have

2 responsibility for, since we met last year.

3 172 We have met in the meantime in March

4 in Europe to make sure that the European countries were

5 really part of this process, and we are meeting again

6 on an annual basis now, but the next meeting is in

7 Rome, at the end of October.

8 173 So it is really -- I don't know,

9 Susan, you have elements -- Susan has been very active

10 in keeping everybody together, and we are trying also,

11 when meeting with the IIC, what we would like to do is

12 very much like we are doing here in Canada, to bring

13 also industry and regulator together at a round-table,

14 to be able to compare notes not only among regulators,

15 but also among the people who are being regulated, and

16 what is their perception in terms of what should be the

17 future.

18 174 THE MODERATOR: Okay. Number one,

19 please.

20 175 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)

21 176 THE MODERATOR: Madam Grauer.

22 177 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you very

23 much, and it's wonderful to see you. I gather there

24 are quite a few from your school here at the Festival.

25 178 As you know, this is a big part of




1 what we are trying to do at the Commission, through

2 this process and through the hearing coming up in the

3 fall, which is to find ways to strengthen and increase

4 the amount of Canadian programming that is available in

5 all age ranges, so I thank you very much for coming and

6 offering your suggestion, and if you and your fellow

7 students have any further contributions you would like

8 to make, either in writing or I think on the Internet,

9 we would really love to get them.

10 179 THE MODERATOR: Are you happy with

11 that? You're happy with that? Okay.

12 180 Sir.

13 181 MR. ROBERTS: Bill Roberts again.

14 182 Susan, a suggestion. I would be

15 happy to work with the Commission and the IIC on

16 bringing together the three regulatory bodies within

17 the NAFTA region, and I would be happy to do that as

18 soon as February of next year. So there's a

19 suggestion.

20 183 The question though is, we have heard

21 a lot about Canadian content, and I understand that the

22 Commission will be embarking on a parallel process to

23 the television review, dealing with Canadian content.

24 If that's correct, I would like to understand what are

25 the three or four points that the Commission considers




1 to be the motivation for that Canadian content review,

2 what do you sort of see entailed or captured by that

3 content review and, if possible, a hint of what you

4 envisage at the outcome of that.

5 184 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, actually the

6 content review is the content review is the

7 certification per se and the pointage system, which

8 will be concomitant with the television policy review,

9 so it is really the questions we were asking here,

10 knowing that the certification kind of triggers many

11 things, like the recognition for a broadcaster, whether

12 that was Canadian content and how many points he has,

13 and also eventually also the correspondence with the

14 other systems within government, especially the

15 Heritage pointage. So those are the questions that

16 will be raised in the process but, yes.


18 add to it, I think it's part of the reflection of a

19 changing environment, and to assure that those

20 particular stipulations match the needs today of the

21 production community and in the end, of course, of

22 Canadian viewers.

23 186 THE MODERATOR: Could the CRTC decree

24 that there be no more Canadian content, or is that

25 embedded in the Broadcasting Act or the Act that




1 created you? In other words, is it a --

2 187 THE CHAIRPERSON: There isn't a

3 specification about Canadian content per se, but when

4 you read the Broadcasting Act and its objectives, it's

5 clear that without Canadian content, you cannot meet

6 those objectives, whether it's diversity, duality of

7 culture -- that the cultural objectives are all

8 embedded in the Canadian content.

9 188 THE MODERATOR: Number one.

10 189 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic) as a

11 producer, we have to go through a lot of (off mic),

12 especially to get Canadian content for our broadcasts.

13 (Off mic)

14 190 So my request is, please do something

15 on performance (off mic)

16 191 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand.

17 192 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I --

18 193 MS BALDWIN: Perhaps I can answer

19 this.


21 195 MS BALDWIN: I would like to address

22 the question of "prevented from showing it in Canada".

23 196 The fact that it does not have a "C"

24 or an "SR" number means that it does not count for

25 Canadian content, it does not mean that a broadcaster




1 cannot purchase that documentary. So there is nothing

2 that prevents it from being shown, other than the

3 straightforward negotiation with the broadcaster.

4 197 THE MODERATOR: Excuse me. Will the

5 broadcaster who broadcasts this program that does not

6 have these magical little letters after it, would that

7 program be considered by the broadcaster and by the

8 CRTC as a Canadian content broadcasting?

9 198 MS BALDWIN: It would not.

10 199 THE MODERATOR: It would not. I see.

11 So they would have to be made up somewhere else at the

12 time.

13 200 MS BALDWIN: Correct.

14 201 THE MODERATOR: Please continue.

15 202 MS BALDWIN: The second part is the

16 forums, and I would say that we certainly do have some

17 sympathy on the forum side. It is part of the

18 certification process.

19 203 We will look at the forums, as we

20 have been looking at revising a number of the other

21 application forms within broadcasting, to considerably

22 shorten them and make them a lot more user-friendly.

23 204 THE MODERATOR: Do you look forward

24 to that?

25 205 Are you objecting to the numbering,




1 the percentages?

2 206 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)

3 207 THE MODERATOR: The CRTC has your

4 name, and if they want more information from you and

5 your experience, they will no doubt write to you. Is

6 that all right?

7 208 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)

8 209 THE MODERATOR: Very good. Thank

9 you.

10 210 Sir.

11 211 MR. GUSTIN: Good morning. Richard

12 Gustin. I'm the Director of Programming for the

13 Saskatchewan Communications Network.

14 212 At a time when we have more specialty

15 services and we are finding the commercial broadcasters

16 and the CBC actually consolidating their operations to

17 the centre, we are finding a situation where it appears

18 that there are less and less opportunities and less and

19 less resources available for the regions outside of

20 Toronto, outside of the centre, to speak to ourselves,

21 that it becomes harder and harder in the regions to

22 tell regional stories, speaking to ourselves within the

23 regions, at a time when there are more and more demands

24 on regional broadcasters like ourselves to try to

25 address this.




1 213 Is there anything that the Commission

2 can do regarding this, to help address this issue?

3 214 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess the

4 television review policy will raise those kinds of

5 issues, and I know we spoke privately about that, and

6 definitely, especially being an educational regional

7 broadcaster, it creates some kind of pressure that is

8 undue on your mandate, because I suppose the absence of

9 other broadcasters creates demand that you cannot

10 necessarily fulfil with your mandate. So we expect

11 very much that you will be raising those issues in ATEX

12 certainly, and other educational broadcasters and other

13 regional broadcasters will bring those kinds of issues.

14 215 What is clear to us, given the town

15 halls we have had already, is for the citizens it is a

16 very important issue.

17 216 I guess what we will have to consider

18 too is the framework we are talking about here in the

19 television policy review, but that was like -- une

20 pyramide inversée --

21 217 THE MODERATOR: An inverted pyramid.

22 218 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we start

23 by the television policy review but then we will come

24 with the speciality channel hearing, and then we will

25 go to the renewal of the different networks, CBC first




1 and then the CTV, and then we will come with the group

2 licensing that we have talked about after the third

3 network, which is Baton and whoever -- WIC, Shaw and

4 Global.

5 219 That will be really where we will be

6 able to carry the day, because a framework remains a

7 theoretical or abstract structure. Where it will be

8 meaning business is when we come to renewal, and those

9 questions will have to be raised at every step of the

10 way. So keep up the good work. We will need your

11 participation at every step. Thank you.

12 220 THE MODERATOR: Are you suggesting

13 that in Saskatchewan it's not welcomed to look always

14 at the world through the keyhole of Toronto?

15 --- Laughter/Rires

16 221 MR. GUSTIN: Yes, I think you could

17 say that.

18 222 THE MODERATOR: Good.

19 223 Mr. Thomson, sir.

20 224 MR. THOMSON: Thank you, Laurier.

21 225 Andy Thomson, Great North

22 Communications.

23 226 As everybody knows, there was a huge

24 funding crisis in the production industry in April of

25 this year, and to a large degree that was caused by the




1 oversubscription of the fund, which was caused by a lot

2 of new broadcasters, both the specialty channels and

3 conventional broadcasters, that had been licensed by

4 the Commission in the past couple of years since those

5 funds were put into place.

6 227 You just mentioned, Madam Chair, that

7 you are going to be looking at new applications for new

8 specialty channels. Does the Commission have a plan of

9 addressing the financing of programs that might be

10 commissioned by those new channels in view of the fact

11 of the current excess demand on existing funds?

12 228 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are concerned by

13 that. We don't know exactly, because it hasn't been

14 reported to us, the exact diagnosis that the milieu has

15 done in terms of the crisis. We know there was a

16 crisis, we know it's severe, we know that there is more

17 demand than supply. We understand that, but certainly

18 those questions will need to be addressed within the

19 television policy review. If it is and then we don't

20 have a complete framework, how can we talk about

21 content and requirements and demands without looking at

22 the possible resources?

23 229 What we understand, though, is we

24 have no say in terms of the rules, and we don't intend

25 to. We have raised the percentage, for example, for




1 what apparently is not a cable fund anymore but has a

2 new name, but certainly we understand the necessity of

3 supporting by the framework, but I think there might be

4 questions that may be raised during the process for

5 which we may not have authority but we take, and we

6 will take, responsibility to carry the message to the

7 Minister wherever it is appropriate, because we feel it

8 is a very important component.

9 230 What we are looking at, and maybe I

10 should precise that, in the process is really how can

11 we strengthen every link of the chain. It's not to say

12 which link are we replacing, it is really, and our view

13 and in our approach with that policy review is really

14 in order to create a framework that can go further. It

15 is really a strengthening of each link of the chain,

16 and that is our perception on how we can really move

17 forward.

18 231 THE MODERATOR: We have about 15

19 minutes left.

20 232 There are questions in the document

21 that has been put out by the CRTC, which in some way

22 involve each and every one of you in this room who are

23 independent producers. One of the questions, that I

24 will read out, and you might think of it when I ask Mme

25 Baldwin to explain what it means: What is the




1 appropriate contribution of the independent production

2 sector -- which is all of us here -- to the evolution

3 of the Canadian broadcasting system? And what is that

4 sector's role -- the independent producer's role -- in

5 achieving the public policy objectives?

6 233 Now, what do you expect, in a sense?

7 You know what I mean, in terms of what sort of

8 questions should they be asking themselves in order to

9 answer them and give you the answers.

10 234 MS BALDWIN: Well, there are a number

11 of issues that have always been in place, because there

12 are several elements to the broadcasting system.

13 235 The broadcasting side is regulated,

14 the independent production side is not regulated. So

15 there is often a disconnect in terms of the objectives

16 of one, the objectives of the other. Funding comes

17 from the public purse for most of the Canadian

18 programming that we see. There is often an increased

19 requirement or expectation that broadcasters should do

20 more.

21 236 Part of what we would like to

22 understand is, are there new sets of rules that can be

23 used for investment, is there a way to understand a new

24 financing structure, given that we have seen certainly

25 an evolution in the independent production industry




1 itself with respect to its growth, its strength, its

2 need to position itself for increased export and

3 increased return on investment.

4 237 Is there a different relationship

5 that needs to be established with the broadcasting

6 industry, and indeed with the regulator, in order to

7 make the system work better to meet all of the

8 objectives and have two very healthy industries?

9 238 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand, the

10 CRTC does not only listen to the broadcasters and the

11 specialty channels and the networks, and of course the

12 Canadian public, but in a real sense the independent

13 producers ont une grande voix au chapitre.

14 239 THE CHAIRPERSON: Indeed, as the

15 creators and as also the citizens and the viewers. That

16 is very important, and that is what we mean by

17 "reaching out in the public process". The broadcasters

18 are the core -- without the broadcasters, we're not

19 here to talk about it, and broadcasters today, given

20 also how the system has developed, means the

21 conventional broadcasters, private and public. And I

22 see Mr. Beatty being there, so the CBC is definitely an

23 important component of our system, and the specialty

24 channels have become very important in the system

25 today.




1 240 So, yes, they are the starting and

2 the ending point, but the viewers, creators and

3 independent producers, it has to be, and it has been,

4 otherwise we would not have had the successes we have

5 had without that very active relationship.

6 241 THE MODERATOR: No. 1. Sir.

7 242 MALE SPEAKER: Will the CRTC have any

8 say on anything that's on the issue of acquisitions by

9 broadcasters or producers (off mic)

10 243 MS BALDWIN: I'm not sure I

11 understand the question.

12 244 THE MODERATOR: Would you expand.

13 245 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)

14 246 MS BALDWIN: We don't regulate

15 independent producers.

16 247 I do think one of the important

17 elements of the way we are looking at the system in

18 general, and one of the round-tables that Françoise

19 mentioned, was one which brought in all of the major

20 licence groups -- Baton, Global, WIC, CBC.

21 248 We talked about coming forward to the

22 Commission with the concept of a group licence. It

23 came out of the Third National Network Hearing.

24 249 What was generally agreed was what

25 was needed was an understanding of corporate




1 strategies, so that at a national level the large

2 groups could come before the Commission, explain their

3 overall strategy, understanding all of their ownership

4 structure which, in some cases, will include

5 specialities, it will include independent production

6 facilities, and, in understanding their entire

7 corporate strategy, talking to them in their licence

8 renewal process about how that strategy will play out,

9 how it plays out down to the regional and local level,

10 so that some of the other questions of regional

11 production can also be brought into it at a strategic

12 level.

13 250 Again, all of these renewals are done

14 at a public hearing, and that offers a wide opportunity

15 for comment on all of those issues.

16 251 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I may, on this

17 issue. When I was telling Mr. Thomson the importance

18 of our look is to see that every link, as much as we

19 will be able to, of the chain grows stronger, that

20 means that there might be a rapport of that chain, but

21 on the whole, it has to be stronger, otherwise we won't

22 be able together to face the challenges coming.

23 252 So it's one thing that there might be

24 vertical integration, and there is not only vertical

25 integration from a broadcaster to an independent




1 producer, we have seen it happen on other elements.

2 But we are concerned, and we are observing and

3 monitoring, even if we don't have any regulation say.

4 253 It is important to us to understand

5 how it affects the system, and if it is going to be

6 weakening the system altogether, we are very concerned.

7 If it is to strengthen it, I think we will applaud.

8 And it cannot be beneficial only for one player. We

9 are coming at it, especially with the review of the

10 television policy, with a systemic approach.

11 254 So those are elements, and we know

12 there are changing events in the universe. There's

13 that one and there are many others in the country. We

14 cannot stop change, and we don't want to stop change,

15 but we want to make sure that the end result is a

16 strengthening of all our system.

17 255 THE MODERATOR: Sir, can we just

18 pursue that? Are you suggesting, by your question,

19 that broadcasters owning independent production

20 companies and having access therefore to the funds,

21 somewhat weakens the system, or betters the system?

22 256 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)

23 257 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.

24 258 Sydney.

25 259 MALE SPEAKER: I want to echo what




1 Bill said earlier about this process being a rewarding

2 one for us, and I hope for you, but I think one of the

3 confusions that comes, when you're trying to create a

4 framework to help an industry to grow or to meet

5 cultural objectives, I'm sort of going back to the

6 other point, but it's the rights regulations, it's the

7 CAVCO certification, it's your system of rules. That's

8 what is difficult for producers.

9 260 So hopefully out of this framework

10 exercise of yours, something more useful and more

11 efficient will come for us, to be able to produce and

12 meet our own goals.

13 261 Also, I wanted to take this

14 opportunity to do a little ad with another hat on,

15 which is -- I'm a director of the Canadian Conference

16 of the Arts, and in a couple of weeks we are going to

17 be releasing a document that is trying to move, at the

18 Cabinet level, at the Government's level, to try and

19 integrate these policies, because I think sometimes

20 people come to you, I've done it myself, and asked you

21 to solve a problem which really isn't part of your

22 jurisdiction.

23 262 The technological convergence of

24 course is bringing about regulatory convergence, so

25 when Susan says independent producers are not




1 regulated, well, independent producers are regulated by

2 the taxation system, by the Copyright Board, by all

3 kinds of other mechanisms. So there has to be,

4 somewhere in your framework exercise, a need to

5 integrate these things. We know the Cabinet still has

6 powers to direct, so it's in their interest to make

7 sure.

8 263 I am just saying, on behalf of the

9 Commission I hope you will support any effort, and I'm

10 sure you will, to create really an overall integrated

11 policy that meets cultural objectives, and realizing

12 that you're part of that, you can't solve everyone's

13 problems. End of speech.

14 264 THE MODERATOR: I'm so glad that I

15 provide you a forum!

16 265 Madame Bertrand, vous avez quelque à

17 dire à cela? Vous êtes intégrée avec tout le monde?

18 266 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it is

19 certainly a very valid point. I guess the need -- we

20 cannot decide on a governmental policy, but certainly

21 we recognize the need for more overall understanding

22 and framework, so I can certainly -- in a situation

23 where you have to intervene with different parties, you

24 wish that there would be like an umbrella. So I can

25 certainly say that we will welcome those points of




1 view, and that we will try to reflect them as much as

2 possible in the framework we will put together.

3 267 We don't have the pretention to be

4 that umbrella policy. That is certainly something we

5 have to say.

6 268 THE MODERATOR: But you do go around

7 and you visit. You came to Telefilm to talk to us

8 about your projects and so forth. And you do that with

9 other agencies?

10 269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We really

11 have been meeting with everyone to talk about the

12 workplan and ask everybody to participate, knowing that

13 we will do a part of the general work that has to be

14 done, but we will carry our responsibility. If we hear

15 things that don't belong to us, we will knock on the

16 doors with the report, so that we relay the

17 information.

18 270 THE MODERATOR: Number 1.

19 271 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)

20 272 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand?

21 Madame Baldwin?

22 273 MS BALDWIN: I think here -- Jane,

23 what I heard you say is "You can't do this, you can't

24 do that", and that is an option not open to you either.

25 And I think what we really need to look at is, if those




1 are the restrictions, where are the openings? What are

2 the elements that need to change and, given the current

3 environment that we have, how can we make it work?

4 274 I can think of a number of --

5 probably from a U.S. perspective -- unpleasant ways to

6 make that work, but that's not what we are looking for.

7 There must be positive ways of integrating the U.S.

8 services with the Canadian system, because that is the

9 way our system works. We have taken advantage of

10 the U.S. services in the past as we developed our own

11 services. We have created new economic models with

12 specialty services, and often the best economic model,

13 in terms of both the U.S. and Canada, has been one

14 which is a Canadian company with maximum U.S. foreign

15 ownership, and that has worked very successfully on

16 both sides of the border.

17 275 There must be more positive ways, and

18 frankly you are the industry with that kind of

19 experience and knowledge about itself, and that's why

20 we are asking the question and not proposing

21 alternatives for solutions.

22 276 THE MODERATOR: Madame, Jack Valente,

23 Sir Christopher Barnes reminded us, said that when he

24 was told that 2 per cent of films within the United

25 States were foreign, and he is supposed to have said,




1 "Oh, my God, I did not know there were that many."

2 --- Laughter/Rires

3 277 THE MODERATOR: I was wondering, does

4 this ever come up to the Commission, that maybe there

5 is a percentage that's too much, of American

6 infiltration into our lives, in our television life?

7 Does that ever come up to the Commission? It's not a

8 policy question I am asking.

9 278 MS BALDWIN: No, and I do think it is

10 raised very often, the fact that 61 per cent of the

11 programming on Canadian television is U.S.

12 279 Most people in the U.S. do not

13 understand that it's that high, and I do recall that

14 Minister Manley was meeting with a number of U.S.

15 congressmen and the complaint was that Canada was a

16 closed system to U.S. programming. And he asked, "How

17 much would you like?" The response from the

18 congressmen was, "We'd like 50 per cent." They already

19 have 61.

20 280 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand, is

21 that within the law, that the CRTC can regulate that

22 percentage, or do you have to have a special law?

23 281 THE CHAIRPERSON: We can always

24 regulate the Canadian content, and I had forgotten,

25 just a few minutes ago, to -- one of the commandment of




1 the Broadcasting Act goes in the objective to maximize

2 the use of creative Canadian talents. So automatically

3 it calls for a Canadian content.

4 282 Let me tell you that I, as the Chair,

5 am much more preoccupied by the commitment that we

6 Canadians have toward Canadian content, than what

7 Americans think. The review of the television policy

8 is: What are we prepared to have and to commit to

9 Canadian content? Then we turn and we talk to the

10 South.

11 283 But presently, you know that very

12 percentage, and when I hear that in order to sell

13 Canadian specialty channels we need the American ones,

14 it's not the Americans that are imposing that to us,

15 it's us who have that perception, that reality most

16 likely, because that's the way we have developed

17 ourselves.

18 284 I am much more concerned and much

19 more preoccupied by how do we promote Canadian content

20 for Canadian viewers, and that is definitely one of the

21 questions of the review.

22 285 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.

23 286 And here is --

24 287 MS NOASIK: Shelly Noasik, Vancouver.

25 288 On June 5th, the Aboriginal Peoples




1 Television Network made an Application to you. I have

2 two questions: Will it be reviewed in isolation or

3 with a batch of other applications, and what is the

4 time line on that? Thanks.

5 289 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bauer, or

6 Madame Baldwin?

7 290 MS BALDWIN: I will answer this.

8 291 We have not determined whether it

9 will be in a public hearing with other elements, but we

10 need to first look at the Application and make sure

11 that it is complete.

12 292 Assuming that it is complete, we will

13 likely have a hearing in the summer.

14 293 THE CHAIRPERSON: It won't be with

15 the specialty channels, if that is your question.

16 294 MS BALDWIN: No.

17 295 THE MODERATOR: Madame?

18 296 MS YAFFE: I just wanted to add to

19 what you just said about foreign services, American

20 services particularly helping to sell Canadian

21 Specialty services.

22 297 There are two facts that everybody

23 has to remember. The second tier, the tier I like to

24 call the Showcase tier, conveniently has now achieved

25 over 70 per cent national penetration and has no




1 American services on it, and never did, and I think

2 that was the watershed moment when Canadians could

3 finally say to themselves: Canadian programming is what

4 Canadians want to see in our Specialty Services, it's

5 what they watch, and it's why we get the licences, and

6 it's what we do. It's what that young woman wants to

7 see on Canadian television, and I think we have a

8 responsibility to recognize that, number one.

9 298 Number two, the third tier, which I

10 like to call the History tier --

11 --- Laughter/Rires

12 299 MS YAFFE: -- is particularly

13 successful in terms of viewing not with the small tiny

14 little audiences that are being garnered by the many

15 many American services that were added to that tier,

16 but it is being driven by the four or five Canadian

17 services, six or seven Canadian services on that tier.

18 300 So I think once and for all we should

19 all say to each other, it's Canadian programs that

20 Canadians are happy to pay money to watch, when it

21 comes to specialty television particularly, and I hope

22 that's the driving force behind the next hearings.

23 Thank you.

24 301 THE MODERATOR: I will only remind

25 you that History is first.




1 302 Madame Bertrand, vous avez quelque

2 chose à ajouter?

3 303 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. I totally

4 concur to that statement and commitment.

5 304 THE MODERATOR: One, and this will

6 have to be the last one. Madame.

7 305 MS EDWARDS: Hi. I'm Connie Edwards.

8 I am an independent producer in Alberta.

9 306 While we are discussing American

10 programming and the infiltration to the Canadian

11 broadcast systems, I just want to stand and let you

12 know I am so very passionate about Canadian

13 programming, and I feel it is integral to our community

14 for Canadians to see themselves reflected.

15 307 As an Alberta producer, I would like

16 to strongly encourage that regional representation be

17 addressed. We need to initiate and control programming

18 from the regions so there is true diversity seen by

19 Canadians across this country. Thank you.

20 308 THE MODERATOR: Thank you. Madame,

21 the key hole again, voir le monde à travers le trou de

22 la serrure de Montréal ou Toronto, c'est pas

23 satisfaisant, il paraît.

24 309 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Absolument.

25 310 THE MODERATOR: Or Ottawa.





2 312 THE MODERATOR: But Ottawa has no

3 keyhole!

4 --- Laughter/Rires

5 313 THE MODERATOR: This is all the time

6 we have.

7 314 I would like to thank you for

8 participating, and I would like above all, Madame, to

9 thank you, Madame, Madame, Madame, to thank you. And

10 please applaud them, because this is a very important

11 session.

12 --- Applause/Applaudissements

13 315 THE MODERATOR: And I can only say,

14 Madame, that I hope that you have learned as much as we

15 have. Et je vous remercie beaucoup.

16 316 There is something about World Soccer

17 somewhere on the planet, and I would just like to tell

18 you that it is happening after the CRTC is finished, of

19 course.

20 317 Thank you. Goodbye. Have a good

21 day. Merci bien.

22 --- Whereupon the Hearing concluded at 1030/

23 L'audience se termine à 1030


Date modified: