Examen des politiques relatives à la télévision canadienne/
Review of the Commission's Policies for Canadian Television
CONSULTATION TENUE À:
Hôtel Banff Springs
Le 10 juin 1998
CONSULTATION HELD AT:
Banff Springs Hotel
10 June 1998
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes
Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Transcription / Transcript
Consultation régionale / Regional Consultation
Françoise Bertrand Présidente/Chairperson
Susan Baldwin Directrice exécutive/Executive Director
Cindy Grauer Conseillère/Commissioner
Joan Pennefather Conseillère/Commissioner
Laurier LaPierre Modérateur/Moderator
TENUE À: HELD AT:
Hôtel Banff Springs Banff Springs Hotel
Salon Van Horne Van Horne Ballroom
Banff (Alberta) Banff, Alberta
Le 10 juin 1998 10 June 1998
1 Banff, Alberta
2 --- Upon commencing on Wednesday, June 10, 1998
3 at 0905/L'audience débute le mercredi 10 juin 1998
4 à 0905
5 1 THE ANNOUNCER: And now, A Town Hall
6 Meeting with the CRTC, sponsored by Procter & Gamble.
7 2 THE MODERATOR: Good morning.
8 Bonjour, mesdames et messieurs.
9 3 Mon nom est Laurier LaPierre, et
10 j'aimerais bien vous souhaiter la bienvenue à cette
11 aventure, which is known as a Town Hall Meeting, with
12 the Chair of the CRTC, two national commissioners of
13 the CRTC, and one of the most important persons who
14 helps these people to do what it is that they do to
16 --- Laughter/Rires
17 4 I would like to inform you that this
18 is a session that is slightly different from the ones
19 that we generally do. This is part of a process. Many
20 Canadians complain that they do not have access or
21 input in the CRTC, largely because they feel they have
22 to travel to the headquarters of the CRTC or wherever
23 they are in hearings. So the CRTC has kindly agreed to
24 travel across the country in order to hear what they
25 call, euphemistically, "ordinary Canadians" who may
1 have something to say about the evolution of the
2 Canadian broadcasting system.
3 5 Therefore this is a golden
4 opportunity for you to have your way with them, in the
5 sense that the past and the present and the future of
6 the CRTC as an institution and its decision-making
7 process is open. However, I must warn you that the
8 commissioners may answer questions that deal with the
9 decisions that they have taken and the process which
10 they use, but they cannot deal with decisions that are
11 forthcoming, because they haven't made them yet, and
12 since they are in a quasi-judicial situation, we would
13 like to protect that.
14 6 We do not of course, since we are a
15 friendly crowd and it is a beautiful day, expect any
16 confrontation. We just expect to have a lot of
17 pleasure and fun.
18 7 Mme Whissell, who is over there, is a
19 court stenographer. She is taking, in a sense, your
20 deposition, because all of this is part of the record
21 of the CRTC and will go to assist the commissioners in
22 taking the decisions that are very important for the
23 Canadian broadcasting system and programming in the
24 forthcoming century.
25 8 If that is all understood, we can now
1 proceed. The idea is that there are no questions from
2 me, I am merely the carrier of the mic. Therefore, if
3 you wish to speak or make comments or ask questions of
4 the commissioners, you will please raise your hand and
5 I will rush to you. I would be grateful if you would
6 raise your hand in anticipation, to the end of the
7 person who is already speaking, because by the time I
8 get to there, half of the program will be over.
9 9 Madame Bertrand, vous avez des
10 remarques à faire au commencement, nous souhaiter la
11 bienvenue, peut-être nous dire de belles choses
13 10 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Écoutez, invitée de
14 telle manière, avec plaisir.
15 11 Je suis très heureuse, avec mes
16 collègues, d'être ici aujourd'hui. On vient faire un
17 peu de "brain-picking" très sérieusement. Nous voulons
18 profiter de l'occasion du forum qu'offre le Festival de
19 Banff, avec des gens qui ont une expertise et une
20 expérience immenses en matière de télévision, et qui
21 sont réunis ici pour réfléchir et penser à l'avenir
22 donc d'une façon très créative, nous voulons, avec
23 vous, parler de télévision, de ce qui nous tient à
24 coeur, et de faire en sorte surtout d'écouter.
25 12 We are here to listen. If you have
1 any questions that you need clarification, we will be
2 happy to try to help you in any matter where you feel
3 that need, but mainly what we came for is to listen to
4 you. It is part of a long process that started in
5 Calgary last week, where we held a town hall meeting
6 with citizens and viewers. We will be doing the same
7 in many cities across Canada, but we felt that we had
8 the opportunity of coming to the Banff Festival,
9 invited by Pat Ferns, and we felt that we could not
10 resist the real opportunity that was given to us. So
11 we are here to listen.
12 13 There are the ones who are here, but
13 we have also colleagues in the audience, and please
14 just feel free to talk about your opinions, what you
15 have on your mind.
16 14 In order to maybe give a framework to
17 the focus on the television public hearing that will be
18 held at the end of September, which is really the main
19 focus of our discussion today, I would like to read an
20 element of the preface of that public notice that was
21 published, to give you the scope of our inquiry.
22 15 "The Commission's goals for this
23 review of its regulatory and
24 policy framework for television
25 are straightforward - further
1 the development of a strong and
2 viable programming industry;
3 ensure that Canadians receive a
4 wide range of attractive and
5 distinctive Canadian program
6 choices; facilitate the growth
7 of strong broadcasting
8 undertakings; ensure that the
9 Canadian broadcasting system
10 meets the needs of Canadian
11 viewers and reflects their
12 values; and, implement the
13 public interest objectives of
14 the Broadcasting Act (the Act).
15 In particular, the Commission
16 wishes to explore how all
17 participants in the system can
18 work effectively to strengthen
19 the Canadian presence on our
20 television screens and to
21 support a healthy broadcasting
22 and production industry, capable
23 of competing successfully at
24 home and abroad. At the same
25 time, the Commission will wish
1 to be assured that the public
2 interest objectives of the Act
3 are well served."
4 16 LE MODÉRATEUR: Merci bien, madame.
5 17 Allow me to introduce to you the
6 members of the delegation. First, Madame Susan
7 Baldwin, who is the Executive Director for
8 Broadcasting, Madame Bertrand, you have already met,
9 Mme Joan Pennefather, who is a national commissioner,
10 and Mme Cindy Grauer, who comes from British Columbia,
11 and who is a national commissioner.
12 18 Are you ready? Tu es prêt? Alors tu
13 vas commencer. C'est très simple -- tu vas commencer.
14 19 Put your hands up, and I have a mic
15 over there as well.
16 20 MALE SPEAKER: I thought you meant --
17 no, I'm not ready to speak. I thought "ready to go"!
18 21 THE MODERATOR: Are you trying to
19 disturb my meeting?
20 --- Laughter/Rires
21 22 THE MODERATOR: Over there, please.
22 23 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic) against
23 violence on television (off mic). We have to step away
24 from violence.
25 24 THE MODERATOR: Excuse me. Could you
1 give your name please, for the record. Would everybody
2 do that, please.
3 25 FEMALE SPEAKER: Bonnie.
4 26 THE MODERATOR: That does not often
5 happen, madame, that you have that, hey? But it's
6 Bonnie. Everybody knows that.
7 --- Laughter/Rires
8 27 THE MODERATOR: Madame.
9 28 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is
10 certainly an issue that is really important to the
11 Commission. As you well know, we were involved heavily
12 in a process a couple of years ago, but the concern has
13 not ended with the process and there has approached
14 privilege to work with the industry, and that has been
15 really very proactive with the cable industry, the
16 distributors, the specialty channels and the
17 broadcasters, in order to adopt a classification system
18 and to really raise the awareness by having a logo on
19 the screens. That system has been in place since last
20 September, if I recall correctly.
21 29 That is definitely still something we
22 monitor very closely, and we will be pursuing those
23 issues on the very broad elements of pornography, also
24 on television, the Pay-Per-View. Those elements are
25 all social issues that will be certainly followed up
1 after the television review policy.
2 30 THE MODERATOR: Do you want to add
3 something to that?
4 31 FEMALE SPEAKER (Bonnie): Yes. I am
5 glad to hear that, and I know that a lot of our future
6 lies in your hands, and you will do a good job.
7 32 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.
8 33 Monsieur. Je viens.
9 34 MR. ROBERTS: Good morning. Bill
10 Roberts, from NANBA.
11 35 On behalf of everyone here I would
12 like to applaud Françoise and Susan and the other
13 commissioners for this process of public access and
14 exchange and accountability. I think it's terrific.
15 36 My question relates to the issue of
16 simultaneous or non-simultaneous substitution. A year
17 or so ago, there was a postponement on the Commission's
18 part for exploring non-simultaneous substitution and,
19 Françoise, I noticed that in the current television
20 review there are questions pertaining to simultaneous
22 37 I just want to get a sense of, is the
23 Commission coming at this from the perspective of
24 broadening its attitude towards simultaneous
25 substitution, to go back and revisit non-simultaneous,
1 or is it tending more in the other direction of looking
2 at whether or not we still need simultaneous
3 substitution per se?
4 38 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well frankly,
5 before we did the strategic planning at the Commission,
6 which gave birth to the Vision Plan, which really has
7 been the demanding plan that has involved everyone, and
8 I apologize for that, for giving work to everybody, the
9 issue on the table was: Should we consider advanced
11 39 But, doing the exercise of the
12 Strategic Plan at the Commission, we felt that there
13 was a need to a much broader review. And after having
14 done many changes in the framework of
15 telecommunications, we felt that there was a need to do
16 the same in broadcasting, so what we thought of doing
17 instead of going at a piecemeal approach and looking at
18 substitution, we needed to review the entire landscape
19 of television policy, and that's what we're doing this
20 summer and going into the fall.
21 40 That question then is certainly
22 included in that review. It will be raised, but we are
23 open. We have no point of view in terms of saying it
24 has to be done, it has to be narrowed, or it has to be
25 broadened. We know it has been a very important levy
1 in terms of the economics and the capacity of reaching
2 out some viewers, but we are questioning like we are
3 questioning every dimensions of the policy. And thank
4 you for your comment.
5 41 THE MODERATOR: Madam.
6 42 MS BAIRD: Nini Baird, British
8 43 I see in your Action Calendar that
9 you are going to be establishing a public consultation
10 process in the fall on new media. Would you care to
11 elaborate on that process.
12 44 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, with pleasure.
13 45 We feel that the new media issues is
14 really one that is developing at rapid speed. What we
15 would like better is to see how the world will really
16 unfold and wait to have a more stabilized environment,
17 but it's impossible. It's important that we see where
18 are the links with telecommunications and the
19 broadcasting universe, and also that the objectives we
20 are pursuing, not necessarily the tools, but the
21 objectives we are pursuing, where we can do the
23 46 We are particularly concerned with
24 matters of access -- access to the infrastructure for
25 the citizen, and also access to the infrastructure
1 where there would be no gatekeeper for the creators.
2 47 THE MODERATOR: Are you satisfied?
3 48 MS BAIRD: (Off mic)
4 49 THE MODERATOR: Oh, my God, I knew
5 it! I knew it.
6 50 MS BAIRD: Could you describe the
7 public consultation process that you intend to engage
8 in the fall.
9 51 MS BALDWIN: The process for the new
10 media will be a public hearing, so it will be a formal
11 public hearing with a public notice that should be
12 issued within the next month, which will outline the
13 general parameters of the kinds of things that we want
14 to look at.
15 52 There again it will be a notice much
16 like what you have seen for television and in the past
17 for radio, which is no pre-determination of issues but
18 rather a desire to understand how to build an enabling
19 framework that is much broader, that is looking much
20 more forward, and I think it will be important for the
21 new media process to know that this is not intended, at
22 least at this stage, to be a decision document. It is
23 meant to be a document more like the convergence
24 document issued by the Commission previously, which set
25 out the issues, identified where existing policies
1 were, where there were policy gaps, and asked the
2 questions about how we should implement.
3 53 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.
4 54 Number 1.
5 55 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic) from
7 56 Many of the proceedings of this
8 coverage are being carried on the Internet (off mic)
9 told me yesterday that they are not regulated (off mic)
10 57 Then the specific question, I
11 understand the United States has agreed (off mic)
12 58 THE MODERATOR: So we have two
13 questions. Madame Baldwin?
14 59 MS BALDWIN: Generally speaking, with
15 the Internet, what you are describing is part of the
16 reason that we want to have a hearing in the late fall,
17 to understand exactly what the issues are, how it is
18 being used.
19 60 I think it's important that we're not
20 calling it an Internet hearing. Internet, frankly, is
21 a distribution system. The issues of new media are
22 issues of content, of access, of dealing with the
23 public interest. So we will look at that very broad
25 61 The second question with respect to
1 taxing the Internet is not something that the CRTC
2 addresses at all. That's for the Government.
3 62 THE MODERATOR: So you are the only
4 body in Canada who says that you don't tax.
5 --- Laughter/Rires
6 63 THE CHAIRPERSON: Some would say the
7 licence fees is quite a tax!
8 64 THE MODERATOR: We are going to get
9 you elected!
10 65 Thank you very much.
11 66 Monsieur.
12 67 M. NORMAND: Merci. Robert Normand,
13 Télé-Québec, Montréal. Je m'adresse à vous en ma
14 qualité personnelle et non pas à titre officiel.
15 J'aurai l'occasion de le faire à ce titre-là en
16 d'autres circonstances.
17 68 Je voulais d'abord vous féliciter de
18 sortir de cette tour d'ivoire -- où les juges ou ceux
19 qui sont assimilés à des juges siègent
20 habituellement -- et de descendre prendre le pouls de
21 l'opinion publique, le pouls de ceux qui sont
23 69 À cet égard, je trouve que ces town
24 hall meetings ou ces forums de discussion sont
25 invalables, mais ils ont leurs limites, même s'ils sont
1 très bien dirigés sous la main habituée de Laurier
2 LaPierre. J'ai eu l'occasion d'ailleurs, dans une vie
3 antérieure, de participer à plusieurs de ces town hall
4 meetings à la Commission Spicer -- je vois mon ami Fil
5 Fraser, qui était un collègue également à cette époque-
6 là -- et j'ai pu me rendre compte que souvent dans ces
7 town hall meetings, ce sont des intérêts bien pointus
8 qui viennent nous présenter leur point de vue, ou
9 encore des forts en gueule, un peu comme moi ce matin,
10 de sorte que il ne faut pas croire que ces town hall
11 meetings là reflètent vraiment l'opinion de l'ensemble
12 de la population.
13 70 Dans cette voie de mieux consulter la
14 population, je vous engage à ne pas vous limiter à ces
15 town hall meetings là, mais à utiliser toutes sortes
16 d'autres techniques pour bien savoir, à l'aube de
17 décisions importantes que vous aurez à prendre --
18 savoir si vous devez faire naître un grand nombre
19 d'autres canaux spécialisés -- si vous devez imposer
20 aux téléspectateurs canadiens le paiement de sommes
21 importantes pour avoir accès à des canaux spécialisés
22 dont ils ne veulent pas nécessairement toujours.
23 71 Je souhaiterais que pour pouvoir
24 prendre une décision éclairée, le CRTC à cet égard
25 fasse une consultation la plus large possible et aille
1 le plus possible voir les usagers eux mêmes et non pas
2 uniquement les représentants institutionnels, comme
3 ceux que vous verrez l'automne prochain ou que vous
4 voyez, jusqu'à un certain point, aujourd'hui, et
5 j'aimerais avoir vos commentaires à cet égard, après
6 une trop longue question.
7 72 Merci.
8 73 LE MODÉRATEUR: Merci bien, Monsieur
10 74 Madame.
11 75 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Merci, Monsieur
13 76 Alors, écoutez, il faut bien savoir
14 qu'une rencontre comme ce matin, les town hall qu'on a
15 faits à Calgary et qu'on fera dans plusieurs villes,
16 fait partie d'un long processus dont bien sûr
17 l'ensemble des commentaires écrits qu'on recevra et
18 l'audience publique, mais en plus, nous préparons des
19 recherches actuellement, dont un sondage auprès de la
20 population, pour lequel on cherche des partenaires et
21 on va cogner à la porte intensément du ministère du
22 Patrimoine pour avoir un partenaire, pour être capable
23 vraiment, bien qu'un sondage n'est pas un referendum
24 non plus, mais à tout le moins à avoir vraiment le
25 pouls le plus exact possible du citoyen dans l'ensemble
1 des provinces canadiennes, pour s'assurer qu'on ait
2 vraiment une lecture aussi juste que possible.
3 77 Alors on comprend bien votre point de
4 vue. On le partage, et on va aller aussi loin que
5 possible pour obtenir la meilleure information
7 78 THE MODERATOR: But for Canadians
8 also to participate, I think you have in your
9 documentation a Website, I understand, that people can
10 write, people --
11 79 THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely.
12 80 THE MODERATOR: And you have offices.
13 Could you explain all that to us?
14 81 THE CHAIRPERSON: It was part of the
15 strategic plan we have done, the Vision Plan we have
16 done. We understood that the public process of the
17 Commission is really like the core of our way of making
18 decision, and that it was already very positive and
19 very interesting, but we had to enrich it, enhance its
21 82 Because of that, we felt that there
22 were voices that we were not hearing as often as
23 others, so what we did is we have been trying, by
24 different means, to reach out and really ramify our
25 capacity of hearing and taking into account all the
1 opinions. For that, what we have done is being very
2 active on the website, doing town halls, doing polls,
3 doing more private kind of meetings where -- on
4 invitation, but with a public record, we have been able
5 to establish round-tables -- that's the word I was
6 looking for.
7 83 So we are trying different means. If
8 you have any suggestions where you think it would help
9 us to hear other voices, be more open please. Feel
10 free to participate in our think-tank about that as
12 84 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.
13 85 He is now ready. He is standing up.
14 86 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)
15 87 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'll let Susan give
16 some explanations, but I would like to reiterate the
17 importance of the independence of the Commission -- but
18 being independent doesn't mean that you live in an
19 ivory tower, as we were referring to earlier.
20 88 As much as we have been trying to
21 hear different voices, we have been really working hard
22 in establishing bridges so that it establishes links
23 not only with citizens, communities and stakeholders in
24 the broadcasting and telecommunications industries, but
25 also in Ottawa. And we have been active with the
1 Copyright Board and many other -- Industry Canada and
2 Heritage Canada, to at least know what we are doing,
3 and to share our strategic plan so that we don't take
4 anyone by surprise, and we try to converge as much as
5 possible in terms of taking into account.
6 89 Maybe Susan can give more precisely
7 how it works.
8 90 MS BALDWIN: Again, as Françoise
9 mentioned earlier as well, we have invited a number of
10 other organizations and groups, and accepted requests
11 from them to come and meet with commissioners and
12 staff. We have met with the Copyright Board, the
13 Public Interest Advisory Committee, the Competition
14 Bureau, so that it really is important, as we develop a
15 policy framework, to understand the issues from all of
16 those perspectives. And that kind of sharing of
17 information is precisely what is going on.
18 91 With respect to the production
19 interests, again you will see in the television public
20 notice a very strong link to understanding the
21 independent production industry and all of its aspects,
22 its importance and its integral nature with respect to
23 the broadcasting system and the objectives.
24 92 One of the reasons for doing a Town
25 Hall in Banff was to very much get that kind of input,
1 because many in the production industry are here, and
2 it gave us a very good opportunity to understand the
3 needs and objectives from that industry as well.
4 93 MS ROBISIS, Toronto Star: Salut, les
5 filles -- je l'ai dit.
6 --- Laughter/Rires
7 94 First, a suggestion -- you asked for
8 suggestions, Françoise. The first one is, I would love
9 to see --
10 95 THE MODERATOR: Are you speaking as a
11 reporter or --
12 96 MS ROBISIS: I am speaking as a
13 citizen of Canada, Laurier. Is that okay?
14 97 THE MODERATOR: Yes, but is that a
15 question for a press conference?
16 98 MS ROBISIS: No, no, no, because I
17 can just call any time, but I think some people would
18 like to hear the answers to this.
19 99 The first question is -- it's not a
20 question, it's a suggestion. You said how can you
21 reach the people. Sometimes I think, and maybe this
22 may sound immodest, but I think of myself as sort of a
23 medium between the industry and the public, and one of
24 the things that has hampered me in my job is the
25 closing of the CRTC office in Toronto, which means that
1 if I want to go through all the documents, yes, the
2 website is great, but if I want to see all the stuff
3 and all the channel applications and stuff like that, I
4 have to travel to Toronto.
5 100 When I used to go to the office in
6 Toronto, there used to be a lot of students from
7 Ryerson and York and stuff doing research, and if those
8 documents aren't there, a huge population, and indeed
9 the entire industry, has to spend a lot of money to
10 shlep back and forth to Toronto.
11 101 Now, my question. Earlier you said,
12 and I guess you were reading from the Public Notice,
13 that your aim is to strengthen the Canadian production
14 sector programming and at the same time to support a
15 healthy broadcasting industry. I would like to know
16 how that can be done without sticking your hands in the
17 pockets of the people even further.
18 102 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand or
19 Madame Pennefather, or Madame Grauer.
20 103 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: It's a
21 very important question I think. Certainly what we are
22 looking at is all imaginative ideas that you could
23 bring forward to the Commission on exactly that point,
24 "What are the ways by which we can assure strong,
25 viable Canadian production for as long as possible?",
1 because that's at the core of what we're trying to look
2 at. We are looking at television programming, we are
3 looking at Canadian content within that programming.
4 104 I think we have achieved a great deal
5 of success over the past few years, just looking at
6 Banff over the last several years, and the other
7 evening at the award show, it's very heartwarming. But
8 there are new challenges, a new environment, and we
9 want to make sure that the regulatory framework is as
10 flexible as possible, and in that process come up with
11 new ideas for the financing of programming.
12 105 MS ROBISIS: May I follow that up?
13 106 THE MODERATOR: Before you do that,
14 may I follow up on the comments you have made.
15 107 Are you going to reopen the Toronto
17 108 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are looking at
18 solutions right now to -- I don't think we will reopen
19 an office as such, but we are looking at ways, for
20 example, to maybe make agreements with some
21 universities to have a centre of documentation that
22 could be consulted, and we are looking at partners that
23 would be natural, and we thought that law schools and
24 communications schools would certainly be the obvious
25 ones, and we are looking at possibilities to do that in
1 all the provinces.
2 109 THE MODERATOR: I will give you a
3 short supplementary -- "short" is the word.
4 110 MS ROBISIS: Further to the question
5 about the hands in the pockets of the people, when I
6 got here the big talk was broadcasters wanting to
7 access the funds, and Telefilm, et cetera, directly,
8 and Ms Copps told me the other day that broadcasters
9 are going to have to put their money where their mouths
10 are, since for the past 30 years they have avoided
11 doing Canadian drama production all of a sudden, and
12 "rah, rah, rah".
13 111 But Ms Copps did say that it was
14 really essentially up to the CRTC. Any hints of where
15 you are going to go?
16 112 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: As we said
17 at the beginning, we're looking at all the options.
18 The --
19 113 THE MODERATOR: So they may go down
20 that road.
21 114 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: I think
22 actually the Public Notice does lay out that very
23 clearly, that there a number of options that we want to
24 look at. And sorry about the Toronto office answer,
25 but I'm a new kid on the block, so I didn't have that
2 115 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think one element
3 that is important about that process is, contrary to
4 some other events we have had, or processes we have
5 had, what we are asking, which is very demanding, and
6 we apologize for that because it means a lot of work,
7 it's a framework we are looking for. It's not only "we
8 need more of this" or "we need more of that", it's
9 looking with us on what could be the elements that
10 could balance themselves in order to make sure that we
11 have an interesting framework going forward, given that
12 we have to take into consideration local presence,
13 regional news, national news, as much as sports.
14 116 That cannot go out of the
15 broadcasting universe, and all the under-served
16 categories are still very important, but it has to be
17 balanced at the same time with, what do we mean in
18 terms of the cultural objectives we are pursuing, along
19 with the Broadcasting Act, but looking at the capacity
20 of paying and the finances behind, because if there is
21 no economics, there is no possibility to support a
22 cultural objective.
23 117 That's why it is very demanding, the
24 process we are initiating, because it's not only "more
25 of this", it is, "How do we do the 'more of this'?", is
1 the question we are asking everybody.
2 118 THE MODERATOR: Number one.
3 119 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)
4 120 MS BALDWIN: I think there are a lot
5 of things that we need to learn about new media. As I
6 hear you describe the current system and relate the
7 current broadcasting system to new media, it makes me a
8 little nervous, because if I look at new media, I could
9 describe it equally as a broadcasting system, as
10 fitting under telecommunications, as using a publishing
11 model, as using a real estate model.
12 121 What I really think we need to
13 understand is, what is the right model for new media?
14 What are the criteria by which we want to establish how
15 that model is going to work? How do we want to look at
16 the issues?
17 122 If we set out the issues for new
18 media, they are the larger issues of access, of public
19 interest, of finding Canadian content. Is the issue of
20 Canadian quota even a realistic question in terms of
21 the Internet? I think that that is the very nature of
22 what we have to define, what we have to describe, so
23 that we understand it before we go forward to make any
24 decisions about it. It really is understanding the
25 framework, and then positioning the questions, and
1 understanding where we have to go from there.
2 123 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.
3 124 Sir.
4 125 MR. DODD: Mike Dodd.
5 126 My question is backtracking a bit to
6 an earlier question, about the closure of the Toronto
8 127 I think it's fair to point out that
9 people in various regions of Canada, other than
10 Ontario, have had the same problem with CRTC access,
11 that has been mentioned -- with the closure --
12 highlighted in the Toronto area with the closure of
13 that office.
14 128 So, realizing that government has to
15 make trade-offs on availability of data, the cost
16 efficiencies, et cetera, I think the way to go would be
17 to actually increase the access from remote locations,
18 such that Internet is an application of that, but I
19 think that proving insufficient, I would like to see
20 the resource going more into making information
21 available from a central database, the people need not
22 necessarily be physically present at.
23 129 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.
24 130 Madame Bertrand, vous vouliez ajouter
25 quelque chose à cela?
1 131 THE CHAIRPERSON: No, I think we are
2 working on solutions that would be closer to people,
3 and although it's on Internet and quite easy to access,
4 we understand very well that Internet is not in all the
5 businesses or homes, so we have to really find ways
6 where it's easy to consult and --
7 132 THE MODERATOR: And I understand by
8 the end of 1999, every library in Canada, and every
9 school in Canada, every classroom in Canada, is going
10 to have a computer and be linked to some sort of
11 system. We look forward to that, Madame.
12 133 THE CHAIRPERSON: That's the Throne
13 Speech promise, and I have nothing to do with this. We
14 are working hard at the Commission in terms of making
15 sure the infrastructure will be there, but that's not
16 our promise, that's the Throne Speech.
17 134 THE MODERATOR: I know, madame, I
19 135 Number one.
20 136 MS TREMBLAY: My name is Liliane
22 137 (Off mic) on retrouve dans nos
23 régions, et particulièrement dans celle de Québec,
24 quatre grands réseaux de télévision (off mic) sont dans
25 l'impossibilité totale d'acheter des produits,
1 d'acheter des licences ou de produire à partir (off
3 138 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Ce que je peux dire à
4 ce moment-ci c'est qu'au niveau du processus que nous
5 entamons sur la révision de la politique, nous avons
6 une préoccupation en ce sens. Notre préoccupation de
7 là où on vient a permis de grandir et de faire en sorte
8 qu'on arrive à des succès assez intéressants, et très
9 souvent les semences de ça sont trouvées dans des
10 petites villes, dans des régions, et pas nécessairement
11 dans les grands centres de production auxquels vous
12 faites référence.
13 139 Conséquemment, nous sommes préoccupés
14 par, est-ce qu'il est toujours important d'avoir ça
15 aujourd'hui? Si oui, comment le soutient-on, parce
16 qu'on voit bien que dans les réseaux, et de langue
17 française et de langue anglaise, ou enfin dans les plus
18 grands groupes de radiodiffusion, à cause de la hausse
19 de certains coûts et de la nécessité de rationaliser,
20 il a fallu peut-être ne plus avoir tout à fait la même
21 présence, et c'est vrai tant dans le réseau public
22 qu'en le réseau privé.
23 140 Alors, en effet nous sommes
24 préoccupés par ces questions, et lorsque nous faisons
25 les town halls, pas juste ici aujourd'hui mais comme à
1 Calgary, je suis certaine que partout c'est de ça dont
2 on nous parle. Les gens sont inquiets de se revoir,
3 parce qu'on parle beaucoup avec les États-Unis de
4 l'importance de l'image canadienne pour le contenu
5 canadien. Bien, c'est vrai dans l'ensemble des régions
6 du Québec, ou du Canada, les gens veulent se retrouver.
7 Donc c'est une question qui est à l'ordre du jour dans
8 la révision de la politique.
9 141 LE MODÉRATEUR: Mais que seraient les
10 éléments pour en arriver à une solution de la
11 difficulté régionale versus le consensus? C'est à eux?
12 142 LA PRÉSIDENTE: C'est à eux, bien
14 143 LE MODÉRATEUR: Très bien.
15 144 Mr. Horowitz -- Professor Horowitz.
16 145 PROFESSOR HOROWITZ: My name is
17 Norman Horowitz, and I am from the United States of
18 America. My question I guess is a United States of
19 America question, quite obviously.
20 146 Even including Jack Valente, what
21 issues would you like to address as to the
22 uncomfortableness that you have with whatever is going
23 on, either in the private sector in the United States
24 or in the Federal Communication Commission, or other
25 regulatory authorities, that you feel have not been
1 either properly addressed or addressed in a manner that
2 you're not comfortable with? Tough question.
3 147 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well --
4 148 PROFESSOR HOROWITZ: And talk about
5 Valente -- I love him a lot.
6 149 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's an interesting
7 question, and we have on international bridging, the
8 same way we have done it here, we felt that there were
9 some very privileged links we had to establish and of
10 course with the States, and we went to meet with the
11 people from the studio and we met with the FCC.
12 150 Frankly, I should say from the point
13 of the CRTC that although sometimes it has been an
14 interesting dialogue and much closer to debate, yet I
15 think when we take the time of explaining the situation
16 of the market here in Canada on how it works and that,
17 yes, we have Canadian content requirement, but it's not
18 against it's really in order to make sure that we make
19 space and that we are one of the markets that is most
20 open, and not only in the English market but as well in
21 the French market, already creates a different
23 151 More seriously, I think also that
24 there is a definite different perspective from the
25 Americans and the Canadians on television more
1 precisely. For Americans, television is a business, is
2 a trade, is commerce, and it's called entertainment.
3 For us, it is a business of course, it has that
4 dimension, but in the Broadcasting Act what is very
5 important and the objectives are all matters of
6 identity and cultural objectives.
7 152 So we are not exactly speaking -- not
8 only from the point of view, but we are speaking
9 different languages. So we have to recognize that.
10 That doesn't mean we will agree at the end of the
11 conversation, but at least it gives the right
13 153 I think when I explain, and
14 everywhere I go -- usually if I have an American
15 audience, I explain how many programs we know here and
16 how many channels we get here, and in comparison I
17 don't think we can expect, in the next two years, and
18 even 20 years, to have the equivalent in the States,
19 and I think we have to repeat on that issue many, many
21 154 Susan has a long experience, as much
22 as the Commission, in the Heritage Department where she
23 was before. Certainly she has some elements of her own
24 to add about this.
25 155 MS BALDWIN: Well, I'll walk right
1 into this one.
2 156 THE CHAIRPERSON: You're invited to
3 do so!
4 --- Laughter/Rires
5 157 MS BALDWIN: What I would really like
6 to see is more openness in the U.S. broadcasting
7 system, to allow greater diversity of content. I
8 really think that offering the kind of choices to
9 people, that frankly are offered within the Canadian
10 broadcasting system, would be extremely valuable.
11 158 The second thing I would like to see,
12 Françoise chairs an international regulatory forum that
13 is linked to the International Institute of
14 Communications. We have had three meetings. It is a
15 forum simply for an exchange of views.
16 159 It does not have the status of
17 treaty, it does not set requirements, it does not ever
18 intend to regulate on an international level, but the
19 participation, which allows for an exchange of views,
20 learning from others, is extremely important, and we
21 have not had a U.S. representative at those meetings,
22 and that would be very valuable for all of us who are
24 160 THE MODERATOR: So will you take that
25 back to the United States, sir, and see to it that it
1 is done.
2 --- Laughter/Rires
3 161 PROFESSOR HOROWITZ: Who might
4 that -- again, the difficulty, speaking as, and as
5 mentioned some time this morning, that Moses Znaimer
6 referred, several Banffs ago, six or seven years ago,
7 that "I'm glad to see once again the running dog of
8 American cultural imperialism", and I said to my panel,
9 no, that's not right, I'm just plain and simple the
10 running dog of American imperialism, without the
11 cultural aspect of it, because we don't have any, so
12 it's nothing to be running around with.
13 --- Laughter/Rires
14 162 PROFESSOR HOROWITZ: So if -- the
15 difficulty was, and I have run some companies in the
16 United States, and they were all regulators in the
17 United States, who would you like to see go, and what
18 meaning would it have? I could go and say it's
19 absolutely terrific, and have zippo effect on the
20 process, and I don't know who could have an effect on
21 the process in America.
22 163 MS BALDWIN: The forum itself is
23 designed for heads of regulatory agencies, so those are
24 the people that we are looking for, so that we really
25 can discuss it. Assuming that in most cases the
1 regulators are as open as we are to getting all of the
2 issues and what we learn out on the table.
3 164 I have another line for you.
4 "Running dog of American imperialism" -- I remember a
5 speech from John McLennan at the IIC, and he described
6 Canada as "the canary in the coal mine of culture".
7 --- Laughter/Rires
8 165 THE MODERATOR: I won't let you deal
9 with that!
10 166 Mr. Miller.
11 167 MR. MILLER: Peter Miller, from the
12 Canadian Association of Broadcasters.
13 168 Actually, I would like to pursue the
14 international discussion, because I think one of the
15 privileges of being in this place is both standing in
16 the mountains, in awe of nature and the world, and also
17 sharing thoughts and experiences with colleagues from
18 around the world. I am very curious to hear from
19 you, Madam Chair, and members of the Commission, some
20 of the thoughts that you might have come up with in
21 your discussions with international regulatory
22 colleagues. Do they share a similar vision of the
23 future of regulations? Do you think there will be much
24 more of a common approach around the world, and I am
25 particularly thinking more outside of the U.S.,
1 obviously, than within the U.S. Is that a very
2 promising area? Obviously it is a very exciting area.
3 169 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's a forum that
4 was born last September, so it is still a very new and
5 fragile initiative, but strong in terms of the needs
6 recognized by each country.
7 170 The interesting point of convergence
8 is the very fact that instead of the meeting of
9 strictly the regulators of broadcasting or of the
10 regulators of telecommunications, it's really reuniting
11 all the regulators, to talk about convergence, to talk
12 about common issues, and what has been done
13 respectively in each country, to compare notes and
14 really do some comparison so that we learn from one
16 171 Never was it in our mind to first
17 install a new layer of regulation, and I think it would
18 be really, even for us, regulator, a fear that we
19 wouldn't want to envisage, but we feel that it's
20 important that we come at it in an independent way, the
21 same way as you are coming to the Banff Festival after
22 a year to repair the future and to repair once again
23 the difficulties, what are the successes, and compare
24 your work. That is exactly what we intend to do, the
25 common agenda is about how the world is changing, our
1 role, our mandate, and also enunciate what we have
2 responsibility for, since we met last year.
3 172 We have met in the meantime in March
4 in Europe to make sure that the European countries were
5 really part of this process, and we are meeting again
6 on an annual basis now, but the next meeting is in
7 Rome, at the end of October.
8 173 So it is really -- I don't know,
9 Susan, you have elements -- Susan has been very active
10 in keeping everybody together, and we are trying also,
11 when meeting with the IIC, what we would like to do is
12 very much like we are doing here in Canada, to bring
13 also industry and regulator together at a round-table,
14 to be able to compare notes not only among regulators,
15 but also among the people who are being regulated, and
16 what is their perception in terms of what should be the
18 174 THE MODERATOR: Okay. Number one,
20 175 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)
21 176 THE MODERATOR: Madam Grauer.
22 177 COMMISSIONER GRAUER: Thank you very
23 much, and it's wonderful to see you. I gather there
24 are quite a few from your school here at the Festival.
25 178 As you know, this is a big part of
1 what we are trying to do at the Commission, through
2 this process and through the hearing coming up in the
3 fall, which is to find ways to strengthen and increase
4 the amount of Canadian programming that is available in
5 all age ranges, so I thank you very much for coming and
6 offering your suggestion, and if you and your fellow
7 students have any further contributions you would like
8 to make, either in writing or I think on the Internet,
9 we would really love to get them.
10 179 THE MODERATOR: Are you happy with
11 that? You're happy with that? Okay.
12 180 Sir.
13 181 MR. ROBERTS: Bill Roberts again.
14 182 Susan, a suggestion. I would be
15 happy to work with the Commission and the IIC on
16 bringing together the three regulatory bodies within
17 the NAFTA region, and I would be happy to do that as
18 soon as February of next year. So there's a
20 183 The question though is, we have heard
21 a lot about Canadian content, and I understand that the
22 Commission will be embarking on a parallel process to
23 the television review, dealing with Canadian content.
24 If that's correct, I would like to understand what are
25 the three or four points that the Commission considers
1 to be the motivation for that Canadian content review,
2 what do you sort of see entailed or captured by that
3 content review and, if possible, a hint of what you
4 envisage at the outcome of that.
5 184 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, actually the
6 content review is the content review is the
7 certification per se and the pointage system, which
8 will be concomitant with the television policy review,
9 so it is really the questions we were asking here,
10 knowing that the certification kind of triggers many
11 things, like the recognition for a broadcaster, whether
12 that was Canadian content and how many points he has,
13 and also eventually also the correspondence with the
14 other systems within government, especially the
15 Heritage pointage. So those are the questions that
16 will be raised in the process but, yes.
17 185 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Just to
18 add to it, I think it's part of the reflection of a
19 changing environment, and to assure that those
20 particular stipulations match the needs today of the
21 production community and in the end, of course, of
22 Canadian viewers.
23 186 THE MODERATOR: Could the CRTC decree
24 that there be no more Canadian content, or is that
25 embedded in the Broadcasting Act or the Act that
1 created you? In other words, is it a --
2 187 THE CHAIRPERSON: There isn't a
3 specification about Canadian content per se, but when
4 you read the Broadcasting Act and its objectives, it's
5 clear that without Canadian content, you cannot meet
6 those objectives, whether it's diversity, duality of
7 culture -- that the cultural objectives are all
8 embedded in the Canadian content.
9 188 THE MODERATOR: Number one.
10 189 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic) as a
11 producer, we have to go through a lot of (off mic),
12 especially to get Canadian content for our broadcasts.
13 (Off mic)
14 190 So my request is, please do something
15 on performance (off mic)
16 191 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand.
17 192 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, I --
18 193 MS BALDWIN: Perhaps I can answer
20 194 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
21 195 MS BALDWIN: I would like to address
22 the question of "prevented from showing it in Canada".
23 196 The fact that it does not have a "C"
24 or an "SR" number means that it does not count for
25 Canadian content, it does not mean that a broadcaster
1 cannot purchase that documentary. So there is nothing
2 that prevents it from being shown, other than the
3 straightforward negotiation with the broadcaster.
4 197 THE MODERATOR: Excuse me. Will the
5 broadcaster who broadcasts this program that does not
6 have these magical little letters after it, would that
7 program be considered by the broadcaster and by the
8 CRTC as a Canadian content broadcasting?
9 198 MS BALDWIN: It would not.
10 199 THE MODERATOR: It would not. I see.
11 So they would have to be made up somewhere else at the
13 200 MS BALDWIN: Correct.
14 201 THE MODERATOR: Please continue.
15 202 MS BALDWIN: The second part is the
16 forums, and I would say that we certainly do have some
17 sympathy on the forum side. It is part of the
18 certification process.
19 203 We will look at the forums, as we
20 have been looking at revising a number of the other
21 application forms within broadcasting, to considerably
22 shorten them and make them a lot more user-friendly.
23 204 THE MODERATOR: Do you look forward
24 to that?
25 205 Are you objecting to the numbering,
1 the percentages?
2 206 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)
3 207 THE MODERATOR: The CRTC has your
4 name, and if they want more information from you and
5 your experience, they will no doubt write to you. Is
6 that all right?
7 208 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)
8 209 THE MODERATOR: Very good. Thank
10 210 Sir.
11 211 MR. GUSTIN: Good morning. Richard
12 Gustin. I'm the Director of Programming for the
13 Saskatchewan Communications Network.
14 212 At a time when we have more specialty
15 services and we are finding the commercial broadcasters
16 and the CBC actually consolidating their operations to
17 the centre, we are finding a situation where it appears
18 that there are less and less opportunities and less and
19 less resources available for the regions outside of
20 Toronto, outside of the centre, to speak to ourselves,
21 that it becomes harder and harder in the regions to
22 tell regional stories, speaking to ourselves within the
23 regions, at a time when there are more and more demands
24 on regional broadcasters like ourselves to try to
25 address this.
1 213 Is there anything that the Commission
2 can do regarding this, to help address this issue?
3 214 THE CHAIRPERSON: I guess the
4 television review policy will raise those kinds of
5 issues, and I know we spoke privately about that, and
6 definitely, especially being an educational regional
7 broadcaster, it creates some kind of pressure that is
8 undue on your mandate, because I suppose the absence of
9 other broadcasters creates demand that you cannot
10 necessarily fulfil with your mandate. So we expect
11 very much that you will be raising those issues in ATEX
12 certainly, and other educational broadcasters and other
13 regional broadcasters will bring those kinds of issues.
14 215 What is clear to us, given the town
15 halls we have had already, is for the citizens it is a
16 very important issue.
17 216 I guess what we will have to consider
18 too is the framework we are talking about here in the
19 television policy review, but that was like -- une
20 pyramide inversée --
21 217 THE MODERATOR: An inverted pyramid.
22 218 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we start
23 by the television policy review but then we will come
24 with the speciality channel hearing, and then we will
25 go to the renewal of the different networks, CBC first
1 and then the CTV, and then we will come with the group
2 licensing that we have talked about after the third
3 network, which is Baton and whoever -- WIC, Shaw and
5 219 That will be really where we will be
6 able to carry the day, because a framework remains a
7 theoretical or abstract structure. Where it will be
8 meaning business is when we come to renewal, and those
9 questions will have to be raised at every step of the
10 way. So keep up the good work. We will need your
11 participation at every step. Thank you.
12 220 THE MODERATOR: Are you suggesting
13 that in Saskatchewan it's not welcomed to look always
14 at the world through the keyhole of Toronto?
15 --- Laughter/Rires
16 221 MR. GUSTIN: Yes, I think you could
17 say that.
18 222 THE MODERATOR: Good.
19 223 Mr. Thomson, sir.
20 224 MR. THOMSON: Thank you, Laurier.
21 225 Andy Thomson, Great North
23 226 As everybody knows, there was a huge
24 funding crisis in the production industry in April of
25 this year, and to a large degree that was caused by the
1 oversubscription of the fund, which was caused by a lot
2 of new broadcasters, both the specialty channels and
3 conventional broadcasters, that had been licensed by
4 the Commission in the past couple of years since those
5 funds were put into place.
6 227 You just mentioned, Madam Chair, that
7 you are going to be looking at new applications for new
8 specialty channels. Does the Commission have a plan of
9 addressing the financing of programs that might be
10 commissioned by those new channels in view of the fact
11 of the current excess demand on existing funds?
12 228 THE CHAIRPERSON: We are concerned by
13 that. We don't know exactly, because it hasn't been
14 reported to us, the exact diagnosis that the milieu has
15 done in terms of the crisis. We know there was a
16 crisis, we know it's severe, we know that there is more
17 demand than supply. We understand that, but certainly
18 those questions will need to be addressed within the
19 television policy review. If it is and then we don't
20 have a complete framework, how can we talk about
21 content and requirements and demands without looking at
22 the possible resources?
23 229 What we understand, though, is we
24 have no say in terms of the rules, and we don't intend
25 to. We have raised the percentage, for example, for
1 what apparently is not a cable fund anymore but has a
2 new name, but certainly we understand the necessity of
3 supporting by the framework, but I think there might be
4 questions that may be raised during the process for
5 which we may not have authority but we take, and we
6 will take, responsibility to carry the message to the
7 Minister wherever it is appropriate, because we feel it
8 is a very important component.
9 230 What we are looking at, and maybe I
10 should precise that, in the process is really how can
11 we strengthen every link of the chain. It's not to say
12 which link are we replacing, it is really, and our view
13 and in our approach with that policy review is really
14 in order to create a framework that can go further. It
15 is really a strengthening of each link of the chain,
16 and that is our perception on how we can really move
18 231 THE MODERATOR: We have about 15
19 minutes left.
20 232 There are questions in the document
21 that has been put out by the CRTC, which in some way
22 involve each and every one of you in this room who are
23 independent producers. One of the questions, that I
24 will read out, and you might think of it when I ask Mme
25 Baldwin to explain what it means: What is the
1 appropriate contribution of the independent production
2 sector -- which is all of us here -- to the evolution
3 of the Canadian broadcasting system? And what is that
4 sector's role -- the independent producer's role -- in
5 achieving the public policy objectives?
6 233 Now, what do you expect, in a sense?
7 You know what I mean, in terms of what sort of
8 questions should they be asking themselves in order to
9 answer them and give you the answers.
10 234 MS BALDWIN: Well, there are a number
11 of issues that have always been in place, because there
12 are several elements to the broadcasting system.
13 235 The broadcasting side is regulated,
14 the independent production side is not regulated. So
15 there is often a disconnect in terms of the objectives
16 of one, the objectives of the other. Funding comes
17 from the public purse for most of the Canadian
18 programming that we see. There is often an increased
19 requirement or expectation that broadcasters should do
21 236 Part of what we would like to
22 understand is, are there new sets of rules that can be
23 used for investment, is there a way to understand a new
24 financing structure, given that we have seen certainly
25 an evolution in the independent production industry
1 itself with respect to its growth, its strength, its
2 need to position itself for increased export and
3 increased return on investment.
4 237 Is there a different relationship
5 that needs to be established with the broadcasting
6 industry, and indeed with the regulator, in order to
7 make the system work better to meet all of the
8 objectives and have two very healthy industries?
9 238 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand, the
10 CRTC does not only listen to the broadcasters and the
11 specialty channels and the networks, and of course the
12 Canadian public, but in a real sense the independent
13 producers ont une grande voix au chapitre.
14 239 THE CHAIRPERSON: Indeed, as the
15 creators and as also the citizens and the viewers. That
16 is very important, and that is what we mean by
17 "reaching out in the public process". The broadcasters
18 are the core -- without the broadcasters, we're not
19 here to talk about it, and broadcasters today, given
20 also how the system has developed, means the
21 conventional broadcasters, private and public. And I
22 see Mr. Beatty being there, so the CBC is definitely an
23 important component of our system, and the specialty
24 channels have become very important in the system
1 240 So, yes, they are the starting and
2 the ending point, but the viewers, creators and
3 independent producers, it has to be, and it has been,
4 otherwise we would not have had the successes we have
5 had without that very active relationship.
6 241 THE MODERATOR: No. 1. Sir.
7 242 MALE SPEAKER: Will the CRTC have any
8 say on anything that's on the issue of acquisitions by
9 broadcasters or producers (off mic)
10 243 MS BALDWIN: I'm not sure I
11 understand the question.
12 244 THE MODERATOR: Would you expand.
13 245 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)
14 246 MS BALDWIN: We don't regulate
15 independent producers.
16 247 I do think one of the important
17 elements of the way we are looking at the system in
18 general, and one of the round-tables that Françoise
19 mentioned, was one which brought in all of the major
20 licence groups -- Baton, Global, WIC, CBC.
21 248 We talked about coming forward to the
22 Commission with the concept of a group licence. It
23 came out of the Third National Network Hearing.
24 249 What was generally agreed was what
25 was needed was an understanding of corporate
1 strategies, so that at a national level the large
2 groups could come before the Commission, explain their
3 overall strategy, understanding all of their ownership
4 structure which, in some cases, will include
5 specialities, it will include independent production
6 facilities, and, in understanding their entire
7 corporate strategy, talking to them in their licence
8 renewal process about how that strategy will play out,
9 how it plays out down to the regional and local level,
10 so that some of the other questions of regional
11 production can also be brought into it at a strategic
13 250 Again, all of these renewals are done
14 at a public hearing, and that offers a wide opportunity
15 for comment on all of those issues.
16 251 THE CHAIRPERSON: If I may, on this
17 issue. When I was telling Mr. Thomson the importance
18 of our look is to see that every link, as much as we
19 will be able to, of the chain grows stronger, that
20 means that there might be a rapport of that chain, but
21 on the whole, it has to be stronger, otherwise we won't
22 be able together to face the challenges coming.
23 252 So it's one thing that there might be
24 vertical integration, and there is not only vertical
25 integration from a broadcaster to an independent
1 producer, we have seen it happen on other elements.
2 But we are concerned, and we are observing and
3 monitoring, even if we don't have any regulation say.
4 253 It is important to us to understand
5 how it affects the system, and if it is going to be
6 weakening the system altogether, we are very concerned.
7 If it is to strengthen it, I think we will applaud.
8 And it cannot be beneficial only for one player. We
9 are coming at it, especially with the review of the
10 television policy, with a systemic approach.
11 254 So those are elements, and we know
12 there are changing events in the universe. There's
13 that one and there are many others in the country. We
14 cannot stop change, and we don't want to stop change,
15 but we want to make sure that the end result is a
16 strengthening of all our system.
17 255 THE MODERATOR: Sir, can we just
18 pursue that? Are you suggesting, by your question,
19 that broadcasters owning independent production
20 companies and having access therefore to the funds,
21 somewhat weakens the system, or betters the system?
22 256 MALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)
23 257 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.
24 258 Sydney.
25 259 MALE SPEAKER: I want to echo what
1 Bill said earlier about this process being a rewarding
2 one for us, and I hope for you, but I think one of the
3 confusions that comes, when you're trying to create a
4 framework to help an industry to grow or to meet
5 cultural objectives, I'm sort of going back to the
6 other point, but it's the rights regulations, it's the
7 CAVCO certification, it's your system of rules. That's
8 what is difficult for producers.
9 260 So hopefully out of this framework
10 exercise of yours, something more useful and more
11 efficient will come for us, to be able to produce and
12 meet our own goals.
13 261 Also, I wanted to take this
14 opportunity to do a little ad with another hat on,
15 which is -- I'm a director of the Canadian Conference
16 of the Arts, and in a couple of weeks we are going to
17 be releasing a document that is trying to move, at the
18 Cabinet level, at the Government's level, to try and
19 integrate these policies, because I think sometimes
20 people come to you, I've done it myself, and asked you
21 to solve a problem which really isn't part of your
23 262 The technological convergence of
24 course is bringing about regulatory convergence, so
25 when Susan says independent producers are not
1 regulated, well, independent producers are regulated by
2 the taxation system, by the Copyright Board, by all
3 kinds of other mechanisms. So there has to be,
4 somewhere in your framework exercise, a need to
5 integrate these things. We know the Cabinet still has
6 powers to direct, so it's in their interest to make
8 263 I am just saying, on behalf of the
9 Commission I hope you will support any effort, and I'm
10 sure you will, to create really an overall integrated
11 policy that meets cultural objectives, and realizing
12 that you're part of that, you can't solve everyone's
13 problems. End of speech.
14 264 THE MODERATOR: I'm so glad that I
15 provide you a forum!
16 265 Madame Bertrand, vous avez quelque à
17 dire à cela? Vous êtes intégrée avec tout le monde?
18 266 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think it is
19 certainly a very valid point. I guess the need -- we
20 cannot decide on a governmental policy, but certainly
21 we recognize the need for more overall understanding
22 and framework, so I can certainly -- in a situation
23 where you have to intervene with different parties, you
24 wish that there would be like an umbrella. So I can
25 certainly say that we will welcome those points of
1 view, and that we will try to reflect them as much as
2 possible in the framework we will put together.
3 267 We don't have the pretention to be
4 that umbrella policy. That is certainly something we
5 have to say.
6 268 THE MODERATOR: But you do go around
7 and you visit. You came to Telefilm to talk to us
8 about your projects and so forth. And you do that with
9 other agencies?
10 269 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. We really
11 have been meeting with everyone to talk about the
12 workplan and ask everybody to participate, knowing that
13 we will do a part of the general work that has to be
14 done, but we will carry our responsibility. If we hear
15 things that don't belong to us, we will knock on the
16 doors with the report, so that we relay the
18 270 THE MODERATOR: Number 1.
19 271 FEMALE SPEAKER: (Off mic)
20 272 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand?
21 Madame Baldwin?
22 273 MS BALDWIN: I think here -- Jane,
23 what I heard you say is "You can't do this, you can't
24 do that", and that is an option not open to you either.
25 And I think what we really need to look at is, if those
1 are the restrictions, where are the openings? What are
2 the elements that need to change and, given the current
3 environment that we have, how can we make it work?
4 274 I can think of a number of --
5 probably from a U.S. perspective -- unpleasant ways to
6 make that work, but that's not what we are looking for.
7 There must be positive ways of integrating the U.S.
8 services with the Canadian system, because that is the
9 way our system works. We have taken advantage of
10 the U.S. services in the past as we developed our own
11 services. We have created new economic models with
12 specialty services, and often the best economic model,
13 in terms of both the U.S. and Canada, has been one
14 which is a Canadian company with maximum U.S. foreign
15 ownership, and that has worked very successfully on
16 both sides of the border.
17 275 There must be more positive ways, and
18 frankly you are the industry with that kind of
19 experience and knowledge about itself, and that's why
20 we are asking the question and not proposing
21 alternatives for solutions.
22 276 THE MODERATOR: Madame, Jack Valente,
23 Sir Christopher Barnes reminded us, said that when he
24 was told that 2 per cent of films within the United
25 States were foreign, and he is supposed to have said,
1 "Oh, my God, I did not know there were that many."
2 --- Laughter/Rires
3 277 THE MODERATOR: I was wondering, does
4 this ever come up to the Commission, that maybe there
5 is a percentage that's too much, of American
6 infiltration into our lives, in our television life?
7 Does that ever come up to the Commission? It's not a
8 policy question I am asking.
9 278 MS BALDWIN: No, and I do think it is
10 raised very often, the fact that 61 per cent of the
11 programming on Canadian television is U.S.
12 279 Most people in the U.S. do not
13 understand that it's that high, and I do recall that
14 Minister Manley was meeting with a number of U.S.
15 congressmen and the complaint was that Canada was a
16 closed system to U.S. programming. And he asked, "How
17 much would you like?" The response from the
18 congressmen was, "We'd like 50 per cent." They already
19 have 61.
20 280 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bertrand, is
21 that within the law, that the CRTC can regulate that
22 percentage, or do you have to have a special law?
23 281 THE CHAIRPERSON: We can always
24 regulate the Canadian content, and I had forgotten,
25 just a few minutes ago, to -- one of the commandment of
1 the Broadcasting Act goes in the objective to maximize
2 the use of creative Canadian talents. So automatically
3 it calls for a Canadian content.
4 282 Let me tell you that I, as the Chair,
5 am much more preoccupied by the commitment that we
6 Canadians have toward Canadian content, than what
7 Americans think. The review of the television policy
8 is: What are we prepared to have and to commit to
9 Canadian content? Then we turn and we talk to the
11 283 But presently, you know that very
12 percentage, and when I hear that in order to sell
13 Canadian specialty channels we need the American ones,
14 it's not the Americans that are imposing that to us,
15 it's us who have that perception, that reality most
16 likely, because that's the way we have developed
18 284 I am much more concerned and much
19 more preoccupied by how do we promote Canadian content
20 for Canadian viewers, and that is definitely one of the
21 questions of the review.
22 285 THE MODERATOR: Thank you.
23 286 And here is --
24 287 MS NOASIK: Shelly Noasik, Vancouver.
25 288 On June 5th, the Aboriginal Peoples
1 Television Network made an Application to you. I have
2 two questions: Will it be reviewed in isolation or
3 with a batch of other applications, and what is the
4 time line on that? Thanks.
5 289 THE MODERATOR: Madame Bauer, or
6 Madame Baldwin?
7 290 MS BALDWIN: I will answer this.
8 291 We have not determined whether it
9 will be in a public hearing with other elements, but we
10 need to first look at the Application and make sure
11 that it is complete.
12 292 Assuming that it is complete, we will
13 likely have a hearing in the summer.
14 293 THE CHAIRPERSON: It won't be with
15 the specialty channels, if that is your question.
16 294 MS BALDWIN: No.
17 295 THE MODERATOR: Madame?
18 296 MS YAFFE: I just wanted to add to
19 what you just said about foreign services, American
20 services particularly helping to sell Canadian
21 Specialty services.
22 297 There are two facts that everybody
23 has to remember. The second tier, the tier I like to
24 call the Showcase tier, conveniently has now achieved
25 over 70 per cent national penetration and has no
1 American services on it, and never did, and I think
2 that was the watershed moment when Canadians could
3 finally say to themselves: Canadian programming is what
4 Canadians want to see in our Specialty Services, it's
5 what they watch, and it's why we get the licences, and
6 it's what we do. It's what that young woman wants to
7 see on Canadian television, and I think we have a
8 responsibility to recognize that, number one.
9 298 Number two, the third tier, which I
10 like to call the History tier --
11 --- Laughter/Rires
12 299 MS YAFFE: -- is particularly
13 successful in terms of viewing not with the small tiny
14 little audiences that are being garnered by the many
15 many American services that were added to that tier,
16 but it is being driven by the four or five Canadian
17 services, six or seven Canadian services on that tier.
18 300 So I think once and for all we should
19 all say to each other, it's Canadian programs that
20 Canadians are happy to pay money to watch, when it
21 comes to specialty television particularly, and I hope
22 that's the driving force behind the next hearings.
23 Thank you.
24 301 THE MODERATOR: I will only remind
25 you that History is first.
1 302 Madame Bertrand, vous avez quelque
2 chose à ajouter?
3 303 THE CHAIRPERSON: No. I totally
4 concur to that statement and commitment.
5 304 THE MODERATOR: One, and this will
6 have to be the last one. Madame.
7 305 MS EDWARDS: Hi. I'm Connie Edwards.
8 I am an independent producer in Alberta.
9 306 While we are discussing American
10 programming and the infiltration to the Canadian
11 broadcast systems, I just want to stand and let you
12 know I am so very passionate about Canadian
13 programming, and I feel it is integral to our community
14 for Canadians to see themselves reflected.
15 307 As an Alberta producer, I would like
16 to strongly encourage that regional representation be
17 addressed. We need to initiate and control programming
18 from the regions so there is true diversity seen by
19 Canadians across this country. Thank you.
20 308 THE MODERATOR: Thank you. Madame,
21 the key hole again, voir le monde à travers le trou de
22 la serrure de Montréal ou Toronto, c'est pas
23 satisfaisant, il paraît.
24 309 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Absolument.
25 310 THE MODERATOR: Or Ottawa.
1 311 THE CHAIRPERSON: Worse!
2 312 THE MODERATOR: But Ottawa has no
4 --- Laughter/Rires
5 313 THE MODERATOR: This is all the time
6 we have.
7 314 I would like to thank you for
8 participating, and I would like above all, Madame, to
9 thank you, Madame, Madame, Madame, to thank you. And
10 please applaud them, because this is a very important
12 --- Applause/Applaudissements
13 315 THE MODERATOR: And I can only say,
14 Madame, that I hope that you have learned as much as we
15 have. Et je vous remercie beaucoup.
16 316 There is something about World Soccer
17 somewhere on the planet, and I would just like to tell
18 you that it is happening after the CRTC is finished, of
20 317 Thank you. Goodbye. Have a good
21 day. Merci bien.
22 --- Whereupon the Hearing concluded at 1030/
23 L'audience se termine à 1030