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TRANSCRIPT OF MEETINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES RÉUNIONS DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT/SUJET: CAMPUS RADIO CONSULTATION/ CONSULTATION RADIO CAMPUS HELD AT: TENUE À: Réal Thérrien Room Salon Réal Thérrien CRTC Headquarters Siège social du CRTC 1 Promenade du Portage 1, promenade du Portage Les Terrasses de la Chaudière Les Terrasses de la Chaudière Central Building Édifice central Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec) September 17, 1998 17 septembre 1998 Transcripts Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Campus Radio Consultation/ Consultation Radio Campus PARTICIPANTS/PARTICIPANTS: Joan Pennefather Commissioner/ Conseillère Andrew Cardozo Commissioner/ Conseiller Susan Baldwin Executive Director, Broadcasting/ Directrice exécutive, Radiodiffusion Martine Vallée Director, Discretionary Services & Social Policy/Directrice, Services discrétionnaires et politique sociale Anne-Marie Murphy Legal Counsel/Conseillère juridique Morag York Senior Analyst, Discretionary Services and Social Policy/Analyste Senior, Services Discrétionnaires et Politique Sociale Richard Frith Senior Analyst, Radio and Television/Analyste Senior, Radio et Télévision Annie Laflamme Analyst, Radio and Television/Analyste, Radio et Télévision Richard Dollighan Consultant/Consultant Emmanuel Madan Consultant, BOOM snap!/ Consultant, BOOM snap! Caroline Côté President, NCRA/Présidente, ANREC John Stevenson Former President, NCRA/Ancien Président, ANREC Jill Birch Vice-President, Radio, CAB/Vice- Président, Radio, ACR Hal Blackadar General Manager, CFNY-FM/Gérant, CFNY-FM Lynn Buffone Manager, Radio Policy, CAB/Gérant, Politique Radio, ACR Paul Monty Senior Officer, Regulator Affairs, CBC/Premier Agent, Affaires Réglementaries, S.R.-C. Susan Englebert Director of Radio for British Columbia, CBC/Directrice, Radio, Colombie-Britannique, S.R.-C. HELD AT: TENUE À: Réal Thérrien Room Salon Réal Thérrien CRTC Headquarters Siège social du CRTC 1 Promenade du Portage 1, promenade du Portage Les Terrasses de la Chaudière Les Terrasses de la Chaudière Central Building Édifice central Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec) September 17, 1998 17 septembre 1998 1 1 Ottawa, Ontario 2 --- L'audience débute le 17 septembre 1998 à 0830/ 3 Upon commencing on September 17, 1998 at 0830 4 1 THE MODERATOR: Bonjour, welcome 5 everyone. I know that we're missing a couple of 6 important people, but I think that we should get 7 started and we will try to catch up and have them catch 8 up when they get here. 9 2 I really do want to thank you very 10 much for taking the time to be here today. And I am 11 happy to see that we have got all of the radio sectors 12 represented. 13 3 Just to start, I think I would like 14 to go around the table so we all know who we all are 15 and what organization everyone is representing. 16 4 S'il vous plaît, parlez dans la 17 langue officielle de votre choix. 18 5 I am Susan Baldwin, executive 19 director of broadcasting at the CRTC. 20 6 JOAN PENNEFATHER: Joan Pennefather, 21 commissioner, conseillère. Obviously I have not been 22 here long enough. 23 7 THE MODERATOR: And I was supposed to 24 remind everyone to push the button to speak, please. 25 8 PAUL MONTY: Paul Monty, regulatory StenoTran 2 1 affairs, CBC. 2 9 SUSAN ENGLEBERT: Susan Englebert. I 3 am regional director of radio for British Columbia for 4 CBC. 5 10 LYNN BUFFONE: Lynn Buffone, CAB 6 Radio, manager of radio policy. 7 11 JILL BIRCH: Good morning. I am Jill 8 Birch, vice-president of radio with CAB. 9 12 HAL BLACKADAR: Good morning, Hal 10 Blackadar, with Shaw Communications, specifically CFNY, 11 and Energy Radio in Toronto and Burlington. 12 13 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Caroline Côté, 13 president of the NCRA. 14 14 JOHN STEVENSON: I am John Stevenson, 15 I am also from the NCRA. 16 15 ANNE-MARIE MURPHY: Anne-Marie 17 Murphy, conseillère juridique, legal counsel. 18 16 MARTINE VALLÉE: Martine Vallée, 19 director of discretionary services and social policy at 20 the CRTC. 21 17 THE MODERATOR: And we have other 22 staff behind us, if they would introduce themselves, as 23 well, please. 24 18 ANNIE LAFLAMME: Annie Laflamme, with 25 the CRTC. StenoTran 3 1 19 RICHARD DOLLIGHAN: And Richard 2 Dollighan with the CRTC. 3 20 THE MODERATOR: Merci. 4 21 Comme vous le savez, le Conseil a 5 entamé un processus d'examen de plusieurs des ses 6 politiques importantes, dans le but de déterminer si 7 les cadres réglementaires sont toujours applicables et 8 remplissent les priorités et les objectifs prévus par 9 la Loi de la radiodiffusion et par le Conseil dans son 10 document "De la vision à l'action". 11 22 Nous avons récemment annoncé notre 12 politique de la radio commerciale et nous examinons 13 présentement les politiques des radios communautaires 14 et de campus. 15 23 La politique de la radio ethnique 16 sera, quant à elle, réévaluée dans le cadre de l'examen 17 de la politique de radiodiffusion ethnique qui débutera 18 sous peu. 19 24 We've reviewed the policy for 20 commercial radio, as I mentioned. And it is in the 21 context of a total radio review that we are examining 22 the campus and community as well. 23 25 With respect to the campus radio 24 review in particular, Commissioner Pennefather and 25 Morag York, who is not a morning person, either, and StenoTran 4 1 should be with us shortly and we will embarrass her 2 terribly when she arrives, attended the national campus 3 and community radio conference, the NCRC in Victoria in 4 June and heard from the various participants there 5 about the areas that they felt should be reviewed 6 within the context of this review. 7 26 We have also received comments from 8 campus radio stations that did not attend that 9 particular meeting and these comments as well as those 10 from the meeting are all on the public file. 11 27 As will everything that goes on 12 today, we have the court reporter here so that we have 13 a transcript of the meeting today and that, too, will 14 go on the public file. 15 28 It is one of the reasons that we need 16 these little name tags here so they can see them and it 17 would probably also help if you give your name when you 18 start to speak. 19 29 Following today's meeting, what we 20 intend to do is develop a public notice, probably that 21 we would issue in mid-December that will call for 22 comments on a proposed campus radio policy. And we 23 expect that that policy would be issued in the spring 24 of '99. And we count the seasons very carefully at the 25 commission. Spring ends June 21st. So any time up StenoTran 5 1 until then. 2 30 Welcome Morag. I've already 3 explained that you are not a morning person. May I get 4 you a coffee? Morag is really essential to this 5 process. She is leading this process. She has done 6 most of the work to make all of this happen and it is 7 very, very important to have her here. 8 31 We also have a parallel process going 9 on to review our community radio policy and we will be 10 holding a cross-sectoral meeting in October as part of 11 that process and I would hope that many of you would 12 participate in that as well. 13 32 Nos objectifs pour la réunion 14 aujourd'hui incluent: 15 33 First of all, issue identification. 16 34 We would just like to get the issues 17 on the table so it is very clear from every perspective 18 what they are. 19 35 We would like to understand what the 20 concerns of the various players are around the table 21 and also define in general the environment in which 22 campus radio stations are operating so that we have a 23 context within which to understand both the issues and 24 the concerns. 25 36 We do have an idea of many of the StenoTran 6 1 issues from the perspective of the campus radio 2 community from earlier discussions but we would now 3 like to add the other perspectives and really take an 4 opportunity to discuss them as thoroughly as we can. 5 37 I would also like to emphasize that 6 our discussion today really is very preliminary. It is 7 explore try in nature. Nothing that is said cannot be 8 contradicted at a later point or elaborated at a later 9 point in time. It is really just to get a sense of 10 what the issues are. 11 38 I certainly recognize that most of 12 you have not had an opportunity to go through all of 13 the issues or to take a final position on any of them 14 with members in your organizations and that that is 15 important to do. And I would hope that part of what we 16 will be able to achieve today is to give you a broader 17 understanding of the issues so the discussions with 18 your own organizations can be even fuller, more in 19 context and lead you to a position. 20 39 And some of the issues that have been 21 defined so far are certainly very wide-ranging and I 22 have noted in going through them that many of them 23 actually go beyond the parameters of a campus radio 24 review. So I hope that by the end of the day in the 25 context of campus radio we really will have a better StenoTran 7 1 understanding of the shared issues as well as those 2 that may be unique and particular to individual 3 organizations. And I think that as we do this we will 4 be able to gain a perspective on each other's ideas and 5 concerns, some ideas on how we can work better together 6 to meet both your objectives and the public objectives 7 that we all serve. 8 40 With respect to how we are going to 9 proceed today, what I would like to do is give you all 10 the opportunity to take perhaps up to ten minutes, just 11 to give an opening statement, some of your ideas, the 12 kind of things that you would like to have discussed 13 this morning and then we will follow up with a general 14 discussion of that. And then, about quarter to 11, 15 move into a phase that allows for just a summary 16 comment by everyone as well so that we have some 17 understanding of conclusions and perspectives. 18 41 I think I have gone through the 19 housekeeping matters for the most part. Just -- we do 20 not have translation available. As I have said, please 21 use your language of choice and it will be recorded in 22 the language of choice and that is the way the 23 transcript will appear. 24 42 So with that, Paul, perhaps I can 25 turn to you. I know that you had said that maybe you StenoTran 8 1 or Susan -- you said perhaps you might not want to 2 speak, but would you like to take the opportunity? 3 43 SUSAN ENGLEBERT: Sure. I sort of 4 jotted a couple of things down and so I will kind of 5 throw them out. 6 44 First of all, I would like to thank 7 you for inviting the CBC here. It is an opportunity 8 for us to meet with our colleagues from campus radio 9 which I do not think we have had -- we have never done 10 before, so it is nice to be able to do it. We have 11 never had a formal relationship with campus stations, 12 but I believe that we share many of the same goals 13 which I think lead to a complementary type of 14 programming and also relationships. 15 45 Many of CBC's established hosts, 16 reporters, producers came to CBC from campus radio and 17 as part of our development program and mentoring 18 programs, we welcome them to come and work with us and 19 many of them come for practicums. And it has been, I 20 think, a very beneficial situation for us and I hope 21 for campus radio as well and for the universities. 22 46 I think really that is about all I 23 have to say at the moment, I am very interested to hear 24 what comes next and the discussion. So thank you. 25 47 THE MODERATOR: Jill, would you -- I StenoTran 9 1 don't know whether you would all like to take an 2 opportunity or whether you have someone from CAB. 3 48 JILL BIRCH: Good morning. 4 49 We will just be making a few 5 introductory remarks and Hal and I will share this time 6 with you if we can to talk about some of the things 7 that CAB has been talking about as we have been invited 8 here to the campus radio hearings. 9 50 I think the first thing that struck 10 me was the importance of having an alternate voice in 11 Canada and the role that campus radio plays in finding 12 that alternative voice. And that is an important 13 thing. As I was going through the transcripts from the 14 Victoria meeting, there were a few phrases that really 15 captured the spirit of what campus radio is trying to 16 do and that is a voice for the voiceless and how much 17 that is needed in Canada. And also the issue that a 18 radio program is an audio essay and I thought that was 19 an interesting comment on the role that campus radio 20 does play. 21 51 And there are a number of reasons 22 that CAB is interested in participating in this 23 discussion. I think the first is to acknowledge the 24 contribution that campus radio makes to the totality of 25 broadcasting in Canada. It is an important element StenoTran 10 1 that we recognize. 2 52 The potential of campus radio to 3 contribute to the human resource element of 4 broadcasting is also -- just to further echo Susan's 5 point -- in talking to members, we found that so much 6 of the richness and strength that comes to private 7 broadcasting is born really in campus radio and 8 community radio. And we hope that we will see more of 9 that. 10 53 One of the things that we are 11 concerned with is building Canadian stars, Canadian 12 broadcasting stars. And by that I do not mean just 13 someone in front of the microphone, I mean stars that 14 write copy, stars that can help with Internet. We are 15 looking for the diversity that the campus radio can 16 offer there and to develop these people and get of get 17 them to continue to develop in the private broadcasting 18 arena. 19 54 Further are the synergies that are 20 created between campus radio and private broadcasting 21 in the sense that we are hoping that there will be more 22 opportunities for private broadcasting to go into the 23 campus arena and mentor people that are in that area, 24 to invite private broadcasters into the various college 25 university settings so that they can speak about the StenoTran 11 1 real life world experience. And these are all things 2 that we have been kind of thinking about how can we 3 provide more mentoring to the campus radio, what are 4 the kinds of things. So we are very interested here. 5 We are here to listen really, to understand what it is 6 that we can do to help in that sense. 7 55 The other area that I thought I would 8 raise is the important contribution that campus radio 9 makes to the development of new Canadian talent in the 10 sense that there is a connectivity in the communities 11 that campus radio can reach out and work with those 12 artists and take those risks putting them on the radio, 13 exposing them to the airwaves. I think that is an 14 important contribution that campus makes. 15 56 We certainly understand some of the 16 challenges that campus radio has. And in some of my 17 former work working with associations and 18 not-for-profits, I understand the issue of working with 19 a volunteer board and some of the push and pull that 20 goes on there. Very cognizant of that. And certainly 21 if there are some things there that, you know, we can 22 assist with in the sense of providing connections or 23 information to not-for-profit agencies that specialize 24 in boards and governance, be happy to help out there. 25 57 And we also recognize, of course, the StenoTran 12 1 issue of funding, the issue that student enrolment in 2 some cases is declining. We know that provincial 3 governments are cutting funding and that this is 4 becoming an important issue for the campus radio 5 stations and, you know, we are looking at ways that we 6 can understand how we can better help you in that area 7 and, again, are open to hearing more about what these 8 issues are that you face. 9 58 At this point I would like to just 10 have Hal Blackadar comment on some of the real life 11 issues that he experiences at CFNY. 12 59 HAL BLACKADAR: Thank you and good 13 morning. Well, just for the record, I would like to 14 repeat what I said before Morag arrived -- just 15 kidding. 16 60 I wanted to, first of all, pay 17 tribute here to what I think is already a system that 18 has considerable value to the private industry. 19 61 And if you will allow me to indulge 20 with you for a moment, some of the specific ways that I 21 have found that the system is currently working and 22 undoubtedly there are areas for considerable 23 improvement and obviously you will have areas of 24 concern. 25 62 I think that one of the things we StenoTran 13 1 should recognize is that when there is a healthy 2 program in place at campus universities, campus sites, 3 it is, in fact, a great source of talent that is 4 available to us. 5 63 Now, in my own case, we happen to 6 provide some scholarship money to various campus 7 programs. And, in providing that scholarship money, 8 which has come out of what is known in the private 9 sector as public benefits money and then we have also 10 provided some scholarship money beyond that as have 11 other broadcasters, that scholarship money is helpful 12 in bringing out some of the top talent at the campus 13 stations into our own workshops, our own stations. It 14 is there that, as Jill referred to, a bit of a 15 mentoring program begins. What we have tried to do is 16 to take that mentoring program, then and move it into a 17 next phase and try to bring these people on side as 18 full-time employees as much as possible. Now this is 19 where I get a little self-indulgent, but it is the only 20 way I can tell you effectively how this has benefited 21 the broadcast system. 22 64 Today we have in my present employ 23 between Burlington and Toronto, I think a total of 24 eight employees who are full-time employees who have 25 come out of campus and community stations. All of StenoTran 14 1 these young people have made and are making 2 considerable contributions. For example, Chicken 3 Shwana(ph), who happens to be a personality in his own 4 right on CFNY, came out of a program and is today of an 5 on-air personality attached to our morning show with 6 Humble and Fred. Another individual by the name of 7 Danger Boy. 8 65 We have another young individual by 9 the name of Danielle Holt who happens to be our 10 Internet and computer authority who is a graduate of 11 out of your own programs who provides on air resource 12 and is, in fact, a featured personality. And she has 13 been with us a little over a year, just taking a year 14 off now to travel around the world and gain some new 15 experience and coming back. 16 66 Karen Fischer, Rob Baird, two people 17 who came out of campus programs, creative writers with 18 us who are graduated and are today in Hollywood after 19 about three years in our shop writing scripts for 20 sit-comes. 21 67 The point I am making here is that 22 there is -- whether designed or otherwise, there is an 23 effective program in part in place today. And I would 24 encourage you to make sure that you recognize that you 25 do have a benefit that is leading into the commercial StenoTran 15 1 system that has been helpful to us on the private 2 industry side. 3 68 We happen to be a believer in our 4 company that it is that chain of events that occurs 5 that allows us to develop our talent, that brings the 6 talent along. If we have this kind of talent that can 7 continue to be developed, you do not have to have, as 8 we have today, an American syndicator like Howard Stern 9 on in Toronto or Montreal doing a morning show. It 10 just should not happen. And that is because we ought 11 to be able to develop, as Jill said, a star system that 12 can take people out of the campus environment, bring 13 them into commercial or perhaps into CBC, and then move 14 them through the system. 15 69 I can also tell you that I doubt that 16 we would have necessarily found the kind of young 17 people that we have in our own shops today without 18 having this kind of program in place because they do 19 bring to us a great value from day one. They have 20 learned that broadcasting is a multifaceted type of 21 programming. And when they come into an operation like 22 ours, they do have an experience that, quite frankly, I 23 do not think you could gain if you had not been in that 24 kind of a scholastic and learning environment. 25 70 So the role that you are playing is StenoTran 16 1 an important role to us and I would hope that as you -- 2 as the commission develops its new policy in concert 3 with your input, that you would build on what you 4 presently have, allow us to have access to your 5 graduates, allow us to understand that as you develop 6 your programming, that that diversity that you 7 currently have in place is, in fact, an important 8 diversity to moving into the various aspects of 9 commercial radio. 10 71 I think that we would encourage 11 anything you can do in that area. And, as I said, I am 12 certainly here to listen and I would be very interested 13 in hearing other ways in which we as a private 14 broadcasting organization can provide stronger 15 feedback, a better job of mentoring and doing some 16 other things that I think can benefit both your agenda 17 and ours as well. 18 72 THE MODERATOR: Thank you. If I 19 could just take a moment, I would like to introduce 20 Commissioner Cardozo, Andrew. And Emmanuel Madan is a 21 researcher with us on contract who is looking at some 22 elements of the campus issues for us. 23 73 Please, Caroline? 24 74 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Actually, John will 25 speak. StenoTran 17 1 75 JOHN STEVENSON: Good morning. My 2 name is John Stevenson. I am a long-time, I guess a 3 long-time policy volunteer with the NCRA. And we have 4 a few opening remarks that Caroline and I are going to 5 chaotically share between the two of us, as you can 6 see. 7 76 This is sort of an interesting 8 meeting for me because I was involved in the campus 9 radio review in the early 1990s when I was president of 10 the NCRA years and years ago it seems like now, as 11 Richard will remember. 12 77 And I think that it is interesting to 13 see the change in attitude and the change of feeling 14 within the sector in that time. Richard commented to 15 me before the meeting this morning that when we first 16 did the campus radio review in 1991, 1992, that there 17 was a sense that it was going to proceed quite easily, 18 that the campus sector and the commission had a lot of 19 areas of agreement and it went quite well. There was 20 very good consultation and I think it showed a lot of 21 people that -- a lot of people within the campus sector 22 that the commission was successful and open to them 23 really for the first time. 24 78 But the situation has changed a 25 little bit in the last few years. There is -- my sense StenoTran 18 1 is that there is a lot more concern about the direction 2 of regulation and the impact that it will have on the 3 member stations of the NCRA. And Caroline and I want 4 to outline those areas as well. And it is really a 5 concern about the future and where we are going as a 6 sector and how we are going to be able to grow and 7 develop. 8 79 I do want to add that there are about 9 4,000 volunteer staff working at NCRA member stations 10 across Canada. Many of those people have aspirations 11 to go on and work in other media in CBC or in 12 commercial radio or television and so on. But most of 13 those people, I think, have a real desire simply to be 14 broadcasters within the campus radio environment. 15 80 We have a -- as people at the 16 commission and others know, campus radio in Canada is 17 in sort of a strange situation in regards to community 18 radio sectors in other parts of the world. Campus 19 radio has grown to fill a niche and a need for 20 community radio and community access media because 21 there have been very few independent community radio 22 stations in English Canada. People are probably 23 familiar with Wired World, in Kitchener, and with Co-op 24 Radio, in Vancouver. And those are pretty much the for 25 English Canada at this point. StenoTran 19 1 81 The campus radio has responded to 2 needs for community access by opening stations up to 3 community members, to community programs and that has 4 put us in a very interesting position of serving campus 5 and serving student needs and also serving community 6 needs. 7 82 And most people I think that are 8 involved with the sector, they may not do it for 20 or 9 30 years, they may only do it for three or four or five 10 years, but they still realize that what they are doing 11 is important and they realize they are addressing 12 communities, cultural communities or groups within 13 their towns and cities. 14 83 I wanted to talk first about Canadian 15 content regulation and briefly give everybody our sort 16 of position on Canadian content and the challenge we 17 see -- in changes to Canadian content regulation. 18 84 Back in the early '90s I remember 19 being asked a couple of times by people at the 20 commission what I thought of increasing Canadian 21 content from 25 to 30 per cent. And it was very easy 22 to respond that we were fully in favour of increasing 23 Canadian content and many of our members had gone to 30 24 per cent in the early '90s. 25 85 This time, though, there is a bit StenoTran 20 1 more of a concern in the increase in Canadian content, 2 especially if the long term goal is 35 per cent or 45 3 per cent or maybe within 15 years 50 per cent. And 4 that is not because campus community stations are 5 reluctant to play Canadian selections, but because as 6 over the last few years programming of popular music at 7 campus stations has changed somewhat in that the -- 8 with the increased commerciality of what used to be 9 considered alternative genres of pop and rock music, 10 stations have turned more to urban formats and 11 electronic formats and third stream or, sorry, third 12 language programming. What we are talking about here 13 is rap, hip-hop, R & B, reggae dance, soul, 14 experimental musics, third language musics and so on. 15 86 Many of these selections would be 16 considered popular music and the challenge is obvious. 17 If there is an increase in Canadian content to 35 per 18 cent and then 40 per cent because there simply is not 19 the availability of these selections. 20 87 While I think that it is fair to say 21 that campus radio does a lot to present new artists to 22 an audience and to get those artists recognition, we do 23 not have a high enough percentage of listening to drive 24 substantial record sales and to actually create an 25 industry in some of these -- for some of these genres. StenoTran 21 1 They are simply too small, too specialized. 2 88 We are very concerned that we would 3 not be able to meet a 35 per cent obligation in 4 Canadian content for those kinds of musics. And the 5 result would be not that we would not present any of 6 those kind of musics, but that we simply would not 7 present as much of it as we probably should. And that 8 would be a real shame. 9 89 We would -- we have the same concern 10 about third language programming. If there is an 11 increase in percentages for third language programming, 12 we are worried that we will not be able to meet them 13 and then, again, the result would be that we would be 14 playing less Portuguese music or Russian music or 15 whatever kind of third language programming we have. 16 90 This kind of goes back to us to 17 concepts of music categories and category 2 and 18 category 3 and how they are currently constituted. And 19 we would like this process, the review process, to 20 address that and for the commission to explore ways to 21 separate pop and rock programming where high Can-con is 22 very easy to achieve from what we would consider to be 23 specialty category 3 which would include urban genres. 24 91 We also, and this is -- and I -- this 25 is a very clear directive from our membership, at the StenoTran 22 1 annual meeting they voted overwhelmingly on this, that 2 the commission not impose a 35 per cent Canadian 3 content requirement on campus and community radio 4 stations. 5 92 I've been involved with the sector 6 since 1985 and this is the first time -- and this is a 7 very, very strong indication from the membership that 8 they are very concerned about an increase. 9 93 We also would suggest that we will -- 10 we will suggest that for computing Canadian content, 11 that the broadcast day be considered to be from 6 a.m. 12 to 12 midnight, that listening patterns for commercial 13 radio are not applicable to campus radio stations, that 14 we have more listening in the evening that than we do 15 during morning and afternoon drive and during noon. It 16 would be easier if we would were able to compute 17 Can-con simply for the full period of 6 a.m. to 12 18 midnight. 19 94 And I will turn it over to Caroline. 20 95 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I am going to go into 21 some of our comments on local talent development that, 22 as mentioned in our supplementary intervention with 23 commercial radio, with local -- on local talent 24 development, campus community radio stations do not 25 have all the resources to do all that we have the StenoTran 23 1 potential to do to support new and artists and new 2 music. 3 96 We have mentioned in that supplement 4 ways that we see that we can help and there are many 5 other ways that we feel that we can and we believe 6 that, in order to further help and -- the exposure of 7 independent artists that we need a funded office where 8 the artist can find support and access to non-profit 9 radio in the country. This office would also be used 10 to help campus community radio stations to find 11 independent artists in all music categories. 12 97 Right now, even Toronto and Montreal 13 stations have problems establish meeting their 14 established Can-con requirements for the stations 15 outside of Montreal and Toronto, apart from an couple 16 of exceptions, music does not make it out of these 17 cities. We want a place where we can ensure that music 18 can get to us and where we can find it. 19 98 This Canadian music marketing that I 20 am referring to is using actually the example that was 21 given on page 21, number 73, of the decisions on 22 commercial radio. And I felt that we can use that as a 23 model except here, the way that it is stated is it is 24 only in terms of transfer of ownership. But that we 25 would like to see such an office be funded in other StenoTran 24 1 ways like from the commercial broadcasting side and for 2 it to be all year round and not only in terms of the 3 transfers of ownerships although we would like to be 4 included in that. But we really do not have -- we 5 really do not have as much access as we would like to 6 have. We are always calling on the phone, and calling 7 around, finding out from our programmers, going to 8 shows, getting demo type tapes that way. 9 99 Already we do so much and having 10 artists come in and play live, doing live remotes. We 11 have tried different things such as contests, but we 12 just do not have the money to be doing that that I said 13 that we can do. And with just $300, we would be able 14 to have a room, have independent artists play, 15 broadcast it, record that so that they can get a demo 16 tape and use afterwards. Do for us co-presents things 17 that we do already, which is paid advertisements. We 18 could even arrange tours that they go from station to 19 station all across the country. That we do co-presents 20 and then help them find venues, but those are all 21 things that we would love to do but that we just do not 22 have the money and the resources to do which is a very 23 large concern right now is that we do not have the 24 resources, the money to do all that we want to do and 25 that we are mandated to do and that we are committed to StenoTran 25 1 do. 2 100 JOHN STEVENSON: There are a number 3 of other policy issues that our members have identified 4 in the last few months one of which is ownership and 5 control of campus radio stations. 6 101 There is a concern among a number of 7 stations, most stations, that student unions -- that is 8 student government not be, in future, licensed to run 9 campus radio stations. The concerns that the role that 10 campus station has grown into over the last 15 years is 11 one of balancing campus needs with community needs. 12 And the current stations that are licensed to their 13 student unions are concerned because student unions 14 exert too much control over programming, that there has 15 to be a balance in terms of governance at these radio 16 stations. That is something that we are going to be 17 proposing to the commission to change. 18 102 There are also two decisions over the 19 last ten years that the commission should review. 20 Again, a very strong indication from the membership. 21 One is the 1988 balance decision that affected co-op 22 radio initially and a balancing community access 23 programming. And also the other is the CKDU decision 24 involving sexual content on air. 25 103 Both these decisions have had a StenoTran 26 1 long-term chilling effect on expression at a variety of 2 radio stations. Both these decisions need to be 3 reviewed and clarified for our membership. 4 104 Also, the NCRA is involved in a 5 process of reviewing advertising policy. There is not 6 really a decision in terms of changing advertising 7 policy. But there will be a, I think, a proposal from 8 the NCRA to change that policy, probably to increase 9 maximums and change unrestricted advertising, change 10 the amount of unrestricted advertising on campus radio 11 stations. 12 105 Do you have anything else, Caroline? 13 106 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Yes. In terms of the 14 music categories, I went straight to local talent 15 development because that is -- but in terms of music 16 categories, there is a proposal on the table that we 17 discussed in Victoria and that we have been talking to 18 various CRTC members and the music -- different music 19 communities in supporting which is that we do right now 20 a lot and are doing more and more of DJ mixing, 21 turntablism and audio art. So sort of live sound 22 pieces. And we would like to have that reflected at 23 the music categories, but the way that we are seeing it 24 right now is to have them clearly included in the 25 special cases under NAPL, just to recognize these forms StenoTran 27 1 of art and what we do and that the people doing this 2 are the producers and the artists and it is live. 3 107 Some of our stations have already 4 been including this in our Canadian content under 5 special cases of NAPL. And I actually have a copy of 6 that if anyone would like to see that or make 7 photocopies after. But that we need it to be clearly 8 written in the music categories in our regulations so 9 that when we are explaining our percentages or when we 10 are called for play sheets and percentages, then it is 11 clear and will not be challenged and it is all 12 recognized. 13 108 There are some things that are fairly 14 easy as well that we would like to change which is kind 15 of administration in terms of our licences and that is 16 something like on the cover page of everyone's licence, 17 I think even commercial stations have the same cover 18 page. On the second page of it, in the No. 9, it says 19 "condition for commercial FM stations serving markets 20 other than single station markets concerning public 21 notice CRTC-93-121." And it says that it is a 22 condition of the licence that the licensee refrain from 23 soliciting or accepting local advertising for broadcast 24 during any broadcast week when less than one-third of 25 the programming aired is local. The definition of StenoTran 28 1 local programming shall be set out on page 8 of public 2 notice CRTC-93-38, or as amended from time to time by 3 the commission. 4 109 And this is something that can simply 5 lead to confusion that is on our licences. And we 6 would just like to see that revoked because some people 7 then go, oh, well, then -- you know, and then we are 8 looking for where does it say how much local 9 programming that we have to have, et cetera. Whereas 10 -- but most of our stations do 95 per cent at least 11 local programming. 12 110 But we would like to have it written 13 in our policies that we would like to do -- we would 14 just like it to be defined that we do a minimum of two 15 thirds of local programming. That is, you know, 16 programming that is done locally. 17 111 ANNE-MARIE MURPHY: I would just like 18 to clarify what is happening now in terms of review of 19 the licences. 20 112 I am currently involved in working 21 with the licensing staff in looking at licences so that 22 they actually reflect the situation of each type of 23 station or licensee. 24 113 So that I think you will be pleased 25 to see the outcome of this, conditions of licence that StenoTran 29 1 ought not apply will not appear on a licence. So that 2 should be available upon the next renewals and the same 3 for commercial radio. 4 114 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Okay. Thank you. 5 115 Just a last comment is going back to 6 money for us. That there is going to be a separate 7 review and comments on what is digital radio. And for 8 us with digital that we have no money to go digital. 9 So right now it is hard enough to keep afloat with our 10 budgets and do maintenance with our own equipment that 11 we have, our ancient equipment. And so, you know, to 12 say that we are very worried with digital coming up and 13 with all the talking of digital that we are not going 14 to have access to digital equipment because we just do 15 not have the money for it. And then there is also the 16 training and everything else that goes with it that we 17 are worried about because we do not have any money. 18 And that is it. 19 116 THE MODERATOR: Thank you very much. 20 There are a couple of areas I think I would like to 21 just give you some information about what we are doing. 22 One is some research that we are doing that I Emmanuel 23 is actually doing for Canadian content in the kinds of 24 genres that we you mentioned. And I will ask Martine 25 to let you know just exactly what that is. And then StenoTran 30 1 perhaps you can actually give some guidance to Emmanuel 2 of what he should be looking for, what kinds of 3 questions you would like him to be researching in that 4 area and that would be helpful. 5 117 And this is a personal question that 6 I have been asking about the turntabling. Do you pay a 7 royalty on the record when it is played? 8 118 CAROLINE CâTÉ: No. 9 119 THE MODERATOR: I could not get an 10 answer to the question and I think it just -- I don't 11 know how that should be handled and I just thought, 12 well, is it really being played? It is such a 13 different genre. And that was just a personal 14 question. 15 120 But I will turn to Martine and ask 16 her to just let you know exactly what the research 17 contract involves and perhaps get some feedback as to 18 what would be useful in there and some helpful hints as 19 to how we might conduct it. 20 121 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I would just like to 21 add for turntablism is that our point is that it is so 22 altered that it is now the DJ's, the producer's piece. 23 It is no longer that original piece. 24 122 MORAG YORK: Do we want to talk a 25 little bit about that now or do you want to talk about StenoTran 31 1 it later, the turntabling? Because I think we have a 2 couple of more questions where we may ask for a little 3 more explanation. But would you rather go through the 4 contract now? 5 123 THE MODERATOR: Sure. We can do that 6 now. 7 124 MORAG YORK: Well, I was going to 8 ask, as a sort of follow-up question, Susan asked if 9 you pay royalties. And I thought the question was 10 should you be paying royalties on those records. And 11 my understanding is that a lot of the vinyl that's used 12 in the process of creating turntabling pieces is what 13 they call "sample friendly" meaning that it is intended 14 to be used for that purpose. It is not expected that 15 royalties would be paid on it; is that right? In some 16 cases or in most cases or? 17 125 CAROLINE CâTÉ: In most cases I would 18 say that is true. And there is even a new little logo 19 that I saw in certain CDs that I saw coming to the 20 station recently which says "sample friendly". 21 126 MORAG YORK: Which is meant to 22 encourage DJs to use it for those purposes. 23 127 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Yeah, exactly. 24 128 MORAG YORK: And I have seen records 25 that are entirely comprised of samples of different StenoTran 32 1 kinds of music. You would have a record that is only 2 guitar samples, and a record that is only bass samples, 3 a record that would be vocal samples and you would use 4 those almost as instruments to build a piece of music 5 from those. 6 129 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Yes. Morag knows a 7 lot about this because she got to meet the Turnstyles 8 from Toronto in Victoria. 9 130 MORAG YORK: In Victoria, yeah, I saw 10 them perform. 11 131 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Who took Morag by the 12 hand and showed the different things that they do and 13 how they do it and their record collection, et cetera. 14 132 MORAG YORK: And when I talked to 15 them they looked like a band, you know, there was four 16 of them, they each had a turntable and they stood 17 behind their turntable. And I sort of referred to them 18 as a band. And afterwards Caroline said they do not 19 think of themselves as a band, they are DJs. They come 20 into our studios and do this as DJs, not as a band. 21 133 So it is a -- you know, they look 22 like what you would see in a bar. In fact, that is 23 where I saw them. But you also have the exact same 24 kind of thing happening in your stations. 25 134 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Yes. StenoTran 33 1 135 MORAG YORK: I think it is a hard 2 thing to understand if you have not seen it. But 3 anyway, does that help clarify what we are talking 4 about in terms of turntabling? 5 136 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Well, in terms of the 6 copyright issue, I do not think that we are going to be 7 -- I mean it is a long fight. We have been hearing 8 about this for a long time. Even in the news lately, I 9 don't remember who it was, but just someone that heard 10 their sample, their song in a commercial on TV. But I 11 do not feel that we are here to necessarily discuss 12 about copyright, we are not the copyright board. 13 137 MORAG YORK: But you did mention that 14 you had talked to them and you had a hard time getting 15 clear answers from them. 16 138 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I have talked to 17 various DJs that have called record companies, the 18 copyright board. SOCAN called around to say: "I am 19 using this sample, what is the procedure, do I need to 20 fill out any forms or whatever". And everyone keeps on 21 saying: "Oh, well we do not know we will call you 22 back". And that nobody knows what to do with it. 23 139 MARTINE VALLÉE: At the NCRC, I guess 24 the issue of Canadian content was raised there and the 25 things that John brought up about the availability of StenoTran 34 1 Canadian content in lots of the music genres that are 2 played by campus stations. So what we have done is we, 3 to be able to get a good contract on this is it we have 4 contracted Emmanuel, who is a music consultant, to take 5 a look at the availability of Canadian content and the 6 sources of Canadian music in the genres of music that 7 are sort of suitable for campus radio, the types of 8 things that you play. 9 140 What Emmanuel is going to be looking 10 at is we are going to be asking for the play lists of 11 campus stations to get a handle on, you know, what are 12 the different types of music being played. And 13 Emmanuel will be then looking at talking to a number of 14 sources to find out what is the availability and what 15 is the type of music and this will include various 16 music organizations. It will include the more sort of 17 formal organizations like SERPA and things like that. 18 But also talking to recording recording studios, 19 promoters, all the different sort of music sources that 20 he can identify and also talking to campus programmers 21 at campus situation stations about where they find the 22 music. And he will be looking at primarily focusing on 23 two sample markets. I think one of them will be 24 Toronto, and one of them will be a smaller market, 25 recognizing that where you get the music from may StenoTran 35 1 differ sort of depending on the size of market the 2 station is in. 3 141 That pretty well sums up what you are 4 looking at, Emmanuel? 5 142 EMMANUEL MADAN: Well, yeah. 6 Basically one of the things that I think is important 7 to bring out in this report is the fact that there are 8 a lot of very unique situations that campus radio finds 9 itself in that really do not apply to other 10 broadcasting sectors. So I want to, I guess, underline 11 those and draw attention to the fact that there are a 12 lot of unique situations. 13 143 For example, the fact that there's 14 often a one-on-one rapport between musicians in a 15 community and broadcasters in that community. So tapes 16 can be played or CDs can be played without a record 17 label ever having been involved, for example. Things 18 like -- well, obviously, turntabling as we were talking 19 about this morning and audio are, these are things that 20 fall outside of the, you know, existing codified and 21 well understood categories of how the music industry 22 works. And in almost all cases we are talking about 23 Canadian content. So that in addition to looking at 24 the more conventional channels of music distribution 25 with record labels and music distributors and so on. StenoTran 36 1 144 THE MODERATOR: Do you have any 2 helpful hints as he goes through this or anything that 3 you would like to ensure is covered in this kind of 4 research that would be helpful to both you, us and the 5 broadcasters? 6 145 JOHN STEVENSON: Well, I think it 7 sounds like Emmanuel is going in the right direction. 8 146 The concern that I would have is that 9 looking at stations in Toronto, it gives a skewed 10 perspective on availability of different kinds of music 11 when comparing Toronto to any other city in Canada. I 12 suppose, Montreal would be the other, Montreal and 13 Vancouver. But a lot of our stations are in smaller 14 places in Calgary and Edmonton and Kingston and places 15 where there just is not such a large critical mass of 16 artists. 17 147 And I think it is -- I hope that will 18 be clearly acknowledged and studied. 19 148 LYNN BUFFONE: I was also wondering 20 if, when you review the play list, you will also take a 21 look at the specialty format. There are several radio 22 stations in Canada who do specialty and perhaps some of 23 the music genres that appear on their play list may be 24 helpful to identify additional Canadian content. 25 149 EMMANUEL MADAN: Yeah, well, StenoTran 37 1 specialty programming, third language programming 2 basically all radio programming on campus radio are to 3 form part of the study. So nothing will be left as far 4 as that goes. 5 150 And also to address John's point, we 6 are definitely looking at a sample of actually more 7 than two markets. I am hoping to be able to speak in 8 person to people in two markets. But I do not think 9 that this study can really be credible with a sample of 10 under five. And if it was five, then it would be one 11 large market, two middle-sized and two small, possibly, 12 something like that. 13 151 MARTINE VALLÉE: Just to clarify, 14 Lynn, what you said, when you were talking about 15 special commercial stations in specialty format -- 16 152 LYNN BUFFONE: That's right, Martine. 17 153 MARTINE VALLÉE: Okay. And so 18 identifying both -- well, identify what commercial 19 stations are in specialty format and take a look at the 20 genres of music they are doing and what their sources 21 of music are. 22 154 THE MODERATOR: Andrew? 23 155 ANDREW CARDOZO: I wonder, on this 24 question of Can-con to what extent do you rely on 25 Facteur Music Action who are mandated to essentially StenoTran 38 1 back new artists and relatively new artists. Because 2 when you talk about the genres that you do play: Rap, 3 hip-hop, R & B, third language, my sense is it is fair 4 to say that there is not a lot of records out there at 5 this point. But I -- my sense is also that there are a 6 lot of artists who are not getting records made. So to 7 what extent do you either work with them or encourage 8 them to open up in who they fund? 9 156 CAROLINE CâTÉ: As I have mentioned 10 at the commercial radio review is that these 11 organizations especially at Music Action does not go 12 into the different communities. They do not promote 13 themselves. 14 157 When I even talk to them they say: 15 Well, we don't really buy ads to say that we exist and 16 what is available. And that to me would be just a 17 first to buy an ad in the little burgundy paper in 18 Montreal in the different communities in RDP, whatever, 19 communities where we can find third language artists 20 and where we can find the urban, electronic, maybe even 21 student papers to say that they exist and that money is 22 available because a lot of people do not know that 23 money is available. Or get very -- if you go to Music 24 Action, I mean, how does it represent us in those 25 communities, right, like, who is working there? StenoTran 39 1 158 If you go, it is a bunch of -- it is 2 not just people from those music communities that are 3 working. I know more Music Action than Facteur. I 4 know that Facteur is doing more work in that. I would 5 be very curious to see a list as well of where money 6 has gone with all bands and artists. 7 159 With Music Action/Facteur and then to 8 look in the libraries of a couple of stations and see 9 what has made it there. Because, to my knowledge, they 10 do not hand out any kind of list in help of this is 11 where you should send out your CD or any kind of help 12 with that. And I think that would be really important 13 as well. Because there are some artists who have 14 within around longer and have gotten more help that 15 have gotten to know the ropes. But most of those CDs 16 do not get to us or they just get to the stations -- if 17 they are Toronto artists, then they get to the Toronto 18 stations. But it will not get further than that. And 19 we definitely need access. And we would love to be 20 more a part of that in terms of giving out money. That 21 is why I mentioned even our own office to help the 22 independent music industry and to specifically help us 23 as non-profit radio. 24 160 MARTINE VALLÉE: Does Facteur/Music 25 Action send out -- I know the commission often receives StenoTran 40 1 a sample of records that have been helped or supported 2 partially by Facteur/Music Action. Are those sort of 3 things sent out to campus stations? 4 161 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I have never seen 5 that. I mean, I have had someone -- I met a programmer 6 at the station where I work that works for the Canadian 7 Council, the Canada Arts Council who brought me herself 8 a box of things that were lying around the office. And 9 that was the first time that I have had something like 10 that. And most of it we did not have at the station. 11 162 And it just happens to be, like, we 12 are Ottawa, I work in Ottawa, she works in Ottawa, she 13 has this lying around, she brought it in. But that is 14 too often how artists get to us or even finding an 15 artist at a secondhand store in Montreal. That happens 16 to me all the time for French music. It just does not 17 get out of Montreal. 18 163 JOHN STEVENSON: My experience with 19 Facteur is quite minimal. They just do a bad job with 20 campus radio. They do a really bad job and it is 21 terrible. 22 164 I think I was in campus radio for 23 several years before I even heard of them and that is 24 terrible. And we should know that. 25 165 ANDREW CARDOZO: I would really like StenoTran 41 1 to see that issue explored because the staff I have 2 seen, we've received some of their samples. It is 3 quite impressive in terms of the range of new artists. 4 I would not say it is extensive, but there are a fair 5 number of different genres of music, of hip-hop and R & 6 B and stuff and a bit of third language stuff. And, 7 certainly, campus radio has traditionally and more and 8 more been the area of giving new artists a break and a 9 chance. So we would have to look at how that 10 relationship can be expanded. 11 166 MORAG YORK: I think Emmanuel is 12 taking notes that maybe there are people he should talk 13 to as part of his study. 14 167 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I would also like to 15 add that a lot of what I've seen, especially Facteur 16 fund is a rock type. And we get a lot of rock type 17 music at the station. And we have very little rock 18 type music programming. CFNY takes good care of that 19 and, you know, like we do not, we are less and less 20 into the indy-rock music types at our stations. 21 168 HAL BLACKADAR: Madam Chair, 22 commissioner, as the treasurer of Facteur and a board 23 member, I was of the belief that Facteur was, in fact, 24 distributing the product to campus stations. 25 169 However, if that is not the case, I StenoTran 42 1 will be absolutely delighted to take this back to the 2 board meeting next Friday and I will follow up. And I 3 can assure you that Facteur would have no problem 4 conceptually with getting it out there. I thought it 5 was already going, but if it is not there, I certainly 6 will take it to the board and I cannot imagine why we 7 would not. 8 170 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I do not believe a 9 fund just to do the distribution, because it costs a 10 lot for an independent artist just to do the 11 distribution of a CD, or provide a list or even 12 providing tracking to those artists that would help so 13 much, it would be such a great start. 14 171 THE MODERATOR: Thank you. 15 172 Just a question to CBC, perhaps, 16 because I know that you have a number of alternative 17 music selections and do you have ideas for sources or 18 ways to get at some of that material that might be 19 helpful. 20 173 SUSAN ENGLEBERT: I think we could 21 certainly talk about it. I do feel that with CBC, we 22 are the next step. Sometimes bands start at the 23 college level and then they usually come on to us next. 24 But we are always, in fact, looking for ways to do 25 partnerships and to help young bands get going and I StenoTran 43 1 think quite willing to go into partnerships with campus 2 radio in that regard. 3 174 We have a number of -- the late night 4 program from Montreal, Brave New Waves and Radio Sonic 5 and those programs are do a high Can-con, 50 per cent, 6 sometimes more. And there is a high level of live 7 bands on those programs. 8 175 So, as I say, we are certainly open 9 to doing deals and putting money forward to in 10 partnership and, in fact, do that now with some people 11 where they may book the band, bring them in and we'd 12 like to record them, so we pick up the AFFM costs which 13 we have to pay which helps people put the show on as 14 well. There are different deals we can do to sort of 15 help the presenter. So certainly it is something I 16 think that we could be looking at. 17 176 THE MODERATOR: Thank you. 18 177 I will ask if there are other, rather 19 than my going my kind of list as a result of the 20 discussion so far, I will give you the opportunity to 21 raise issues, respond to some of the issues that have 22 been raised. If there is a particular topic that you 23 would like to focus on in discussion for a few minutes. 24 178 Maybe I could just ask Caroline, 25 while Hal an Jill are talking, and John, I think you StenoTran 44 1 actually raised the issues of the hours for the Can-con 2 distribution, the 6 a.m. to 12 midnight. 3 179 Do you have with you the 4 distribution, when your audience is listening, when 5 your peak periods are? 6 180 JOHN STEVENSON: I don't know if 7 there are any stations in the NCRA that actually 8 purchase the ratings book. It hasn't been seen to be a 9 very useful tool when advertising is not a huge chunk 10 of our revenue. 11 181 The last book I saw in terms -- the 12 last book I actually looked at was about ten years ago 13 for the Halifax market. So it is very unscientific, my 14 perception is. 15 182 But because campus radio tends to be 16 more active listening than passive listening, more 17 people actually listening to the programming than 18 taping it and listening to what the person is saying 19 than, say, the car market or something like that, 20 evenings tend to be quite a bit higher. And also 21 because there is quite a few more young people 22 listening to campus radio than probably to most 23 commercial formats where it is drive time. 24 183 So I would think that that hasn't 25 changed much in the last ten years where we are StenoTran 45 1 probably looking at higher evenings or daytimes or 2 evenings just as high as daytime listening. But 3 without the BBMs, I couldn't tell you officially. 4 184 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I would just like to 5 add weekends. So evening and weekends, if we look at 6 phone calls, funding drive. 7 185 MORAG YORK: We have BBM statistics 8 and we have the unsurpressed statistics which are the 9 raw numbers where the numbers are very small or too 10 small to be statistically reliable, necessarily. We 11 don't usually do much with them because the numbers are 12 so small. 13 186 But I have asked in the context of 14 this for our researching people to try to put together 15 numbers from across the country to kind of aggregate 16 them so you would get a reliable number and then try to 17 graph something that would show the listening patterns 18 over the day for all the campus stations we have data 19 for in aggregate. If we get something that our 20 research department is comfortable with, we could try 21 to put that on the public file. Oh, yeah, and we would 22 have to ask BBM, I guess. Although it is in aggregate 23 -- anyway, we will check it out. 24 187 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I don't know if the 25 CAB would agree with me on this, but I don't know how StenoTran 46 1 much we believe in BBM, really. 2 188 So many people as well that have been 3 in our sector have come in even for a semester or six 4 months. The turnaround at our stations is just 5 incredible. The main host will stay a while, like a 6 couple of years, maybe, but that their contributors 7 change. And the first question is have you ever been 8 involved or do you know anyone who has ever been 9 involved. And if we look at our turnover which at a 10 station where I work we have 250 volunteers 100 to 150 11 of those change every year. I mean, how many people is 12 that? Imagine all the stations across the country, how 13 many people that is that have been involved in our 14 sector, how many people know someone else that has been 15 involved and that can't answer these questions and that 16 listen to our stations. So I find it, I don't know. 17 189 JOHN STEVENSON: Yeah, the numbers 18 are very small for campus radio. I think the last 19 estimate of total listening in Canada was less than -- 20 like, 0.9 per cent was non-commercial, non-CBC radio. 21 190 So I do not -- you may get some 22 pretty strange sort of -- pretty strange sort of 23 graphing of the listening pattern. But, typically, 24 also another factor is the stations tend to be low 25 power so they are not conducive to cars listening. By StenoTran 47 1 and large, it's your 50 watt stations. You have to 2 fiddle with the antenna in the distant part of town 3 sometimes to pick it up. 4 191 So I think what we will probably is 5 end up with is the suggestion that we treat the whole 6 day as the same. 7 192 THE MODERATOR: I guess I am just 8 looking for something a little stronger than intuition 9 on which to base that kind of analysis. I think 10 intuitively we probably all understand that it is a 11 very different day. 12 193 My daughter has just recently 13 discovered the campus radio station and that is 14 definitely nighttime listening and we do get it in the 15 car and it is alternative and she thinks it is 16 absolutely wonderful. She also said: Isn't this 17 great, just think of all the kids -- because she has 18 asked me, can you get my tape played on -- a friend's 19 tape played on a radio station. She said: This is the 20 place to take it. So you definitely have another fan 21 out there. 22 194 ANDREW CARDOZO: You want this kid on 23 your board. 24 195 THE MODERATOR: Hal, Jill, did you 25 want to pursue something? StenoTran 48 1 196 JILL BIRCH: Yeah, thank you. Just 2 one of the questions just for clarification, we are 3 going through the position paper that had been 4 developed and I just wanted a little bit more 5 clarification on the issue of the low power training 6 licences being enhanced. I was wondering if you could 7 just provided some further detail for us of what that 8 means. 9 197 CAROLINE CâTÉ: We have been talking 10 to the CRTC about a possibility of having a temporary 11 low watt licence to try it out. And a lot of student 12 unions, universities, colleges feel hesitant to just go 13 with such -- it is an important thing to hold that 14 licence, to have it and to be promising to do that 15 programming. And people want to try it out for a year 16 and see if it is possible for it to be sustainable and 17 to develop the music library and are we able to do this 18 and how many hours can we really do before applying for 19 a full licence and the full licensing term. That is 20 what it is. 21 198 JOHN STEVENSON: The technical 22 solution in the past used to be carrier current, which 23 is when you run an FM signal through power lines on 24 campus. And that isn't a very effective means of 25 broadcasting, to say the least. And I think this sort StenoTran 49 1 of change would be a replacement and more effective 2 trial basis as opposed to carrier current. So I do not 3 think it is a big conceptual change. In terms of 4 regulation, I think it is more of a technical change 5 that is more appropriate that actually works. 6 199 JILL BIRCH: A further question we 7 had was with regard to the position of increasing 8 advertising on the campus radio stations. And we were 9 just wanting to get a little bit more clarification 10 about what type of advertising that meant in your eyes, 11 would it look like, those kinds of issues. 12 200 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I would like to say 13 that there is no station in the campus community radio 14 sector at all that I have talked to or that who has 15 written me anything that wants to do more advertising 16 and that nobody gets their four minutes an hour. 17 Nobody. So I do not think you guys have to worry about 18 that at all. 19 201 What we are more looking at is, in 20 terms of administration, what is restricted and 21 unrestricted. Do we just want to go unrestricted 22 because people are always calling up: What is 23 restricted, again, what can't we say? Oh, we don't say 24 that anyway. It's more that kind of thing. That it's 25 just easier if we would just: Okay. We have four StenoTran 50 1 minutes an hour and that is it. And then maybe 2 defining a sound to make it -- because we feel, well, 3 say the best or better than is not what constitutes a 4 commercial ad, it is really the sound, like, how does 5 it sounds, how is it being said. 6 202 I mean, we can do lots of commercial 7 ads and not say those words. So we are saying: Well, 8 then, you know, it really is the sound. And we know 9 our sound and we don't have that sound anyway. But if 10 we just need to define a sound or say that, well we 11 will not sound like the commercial stations in our 12 market will sound, then maybe we should just say that 13 and just keep the four minutes. But we are fine with 14 the four minutes. 15 203 JILL BIRCH: If I could just ask, I 16 guess, an open question. If, seeing as we are all here 17 gathered around the table, if private broadcasters 18 could assist campus radio, what are some of the things 19 that you think? We have obviously had some discussions 20 with members internally at CAB and talked a lot with 21 Hal and his relationships. What in your mind would be 22 some helpful things that we might be able to do for 23 you? 24 204 JOHN STEVENSON: Well, Caroline can 25 speak to this as well, but I think as a sector what I StenoTran 51 1 have seen over the last decade is really a plateauing 2 of resources within the campus community radio sector. 3 That is, the situations that stations are in now are 4 pretty similar to what they were in the late 1980s, 5 that there was a lot of growth and a lot of development 6 and a lot of learning that took place in the late '80s 7 and early '90s, but we have plateaued. And as a 8 sector, we, I think, it would be very positive if we 9 could look to the future, instead of looking at just 10 survival, but looking at expanding what we are doing 11 and doing what we are doing better. 12 205 Most stations have budgets that are 13 minuscule by commercial radio standards or by the 14 standards of the CBC. I know the station I worked at, 15 in Guelph, some years ago, the budget was less than 16 $200,000 for a staff of six and a volunteer staff of 17 150 and maintenance and programming and everything that 18 we had to do at the station. And it is great that we 19 can do quite a bit with limited resources, but I think 20 the time has probably come when we have to look to the 21 future and look to doing things more competently and 22 doing -- expanding out into the community, being more 23 of a resource and that sort of thing. 24 206 And I am at a bit of a disadvantage 25 because I did not go to the conference this summer, the StenoTran 52 1 NCRC conference. And so I don't know what people have 2 been saying recently about how we can do this. And 3 maybe Caroline can speak to that. But one of the ways 4 is more direct support from other sectors of media to 5 campus broadcasting, to recognize us as a form of 6 community broadcasting and as such to support us, to do 7 things that commercial radio probably cannot do, to go 8 into areas to provide a lot of programming that 9 commercial radio, just because of commercial 10 constraints, cannot really do. 11 207 And I am not sure what model -- and 12 Caroline probably has more ideas than I do about that 13 -- I am not sure what models we should be suggesting, 14 but any kind of support that we receive makes a huge 15 difference to us. And I know that over the last 16 several years Standard Broadcasting has been the -- I 17 think it is the only large media organization that has 18 given any support to the NCRA and through that to our 19 members. And the impact of that has been absolutely 20 huge. And it is only -- I think the total moneys is 21 less than $100,000 over a period of years. Any amount 22 of support is -- makes a huge difference to the sector 23 and allows us to be able to consider things we could 24 not consider before. 25 208 The total budget, I think for all the StenoTran 53 1 campus stations in Canada is probably around $3.5 to $4 2 million a year and that is nothing. And any support 3 makes a huge difference. 4 209 CAROLINE CâTÉ: John mentioned that 5 Standard gave us, for a couple of years $25,000 a year 6 and that actually went down by $10,000 this year. And, 7 you know, I have to mention that $5,000 of that, by 8 their request, is for the awards banquet where they 9 will come and eat. And for us, $5,000 can really go a 10 lot further than that. That with $10,000, I am talking 11 about a whole new production studio. And that money 12 has gone down and I was surprised to hear you say that 13 at your station you fund -- you help certain stations. 14 I don't know if it is co-op and placements and 15 different awards, I have no clue. But I have never 16 actually heard of them. And also in terms of 17 instructional stations, you were mentioning a lot of 18 instructional stations. 90, 95 per cent of us are not 19 instructional stations. We are not instructional 20 stations, we are not attached to programs. And we are 21 not seeing that money and we are not seeing those 22 programs. We are not seeing journalism contests. We 23 are just not seeing any of that. So I am really 24 surprised to hear you say that. It sounds great for 25 instructional stations, but also, in talking to StenoTran 54 1 instructional stations, they very much told me that 2 they need more support, that they are -- they are the 3 parents and who is going to be going to your stations 4 and that they are not feeling that kind of support. 5 210 So I mean Standard was a beginning. 6 We were hoping to foster more relationships from there. 7 And it is great to hear the CBC say it and it is great 8 to hear you representing the CAB. But we really do 9 need to sit down and see the ways that we can do that. 10 211 The office idea with local talent 11 development is just a first idea as to how -- and that 12 is especially for the artists and getting the artists 13 to us and us to them. 14 212 But, I mean, we have very much looked 15 at the cable model and how much of their percentage of 16 their budget goes to the community stations. And I 17 know it isn't the same thing because their studios are 18 -- it is as if we would move in. And we do not want to 19 move in, either, you know. We don't want to say: 20 Well, we want to use your studio now, you know, please 21 create a home for us. You know, we have our homes. 22 But if there is some way that we can work that way, 23 that would be great. 24 213 JOHN STEVENSON: I think it is 25 particularly applicable when we talk about the coming StenoTran 55 1 of digital radio and how we are going to be able to 2 accommodate that within budgets that on campus are 3 slowly shrinking. 4 214 It is a fear that a lot of stations 5 have that they simply will not be able to be on digital 6 radio and they will not really be broadcasting in 15 7 years or 10 years. And that is a real danger. Nobody 8 is going to rush in. Nobody from the university 9 community is going to rush in and nobody from 10 government is going to rush in and take care of that. 11 It has never happened before. 12 215 These stations started with the sweat 13 and the hard work of people who had a dream to see them 14 created. And nobody -- sometimes universities lent 15 $100,000 or something to a station to start, but it has 16 always come back to the people who wanted to start it. 17 And now we are looking to the future and we cannot 18 necessarily do this, cannot go to the next step by 19 ourselves. 20 216 THE MODERATOR: Susan? 21 217 SUSAN ENGLEBERT: I think in some 22 cases -- with CBC there are things in place that, 23 perhaps, people just do not know about. And I think 24 somehow we are going to have to find a way of getting 25 the kind of programs that we have in place out to you StenoTran 56 1 so that your people know what is going on. 2 218 For instance, we do have -- it is 3 called a New Voices project and we are asking people 4 who have never been on the radio before to -- on CBC 5 before, to come and spend time with us to put together 6 15-minute small programs. It is on five nights a week. 7 219 And we have had, actually, a number 8 of people from campus radios take part in this. But it 9 is a wonderful introduction into CBC. We started doing 10 it last year and we started with two nights a week. We 11 have now expanded it to five. It is 15 minutes in 12 length. And I think if you get into the Internet, it 13 is called Out Front. And it sells you how to go about, 14 you know, getting through the maze of CBC and getting 15 on to it. 16 220 But it is an excellent way of 17 starting out. And it is rather similar to the many 18 years ago we had something called Five Nights which 19 went away, but out of that came some wonderful people 20 Mark Starvitz is one of them who went on to do the 21 journal and all sorts of things. But there are a lot 22 of people within CBC who came in that way. 23 221 And we have some other things when we 24 talk about talent and developing talent, there are 25 routes to go, that I think we need to obviously let you StenoTran 57 1 know how to access better what we have. 2 222 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I have always felt 3 the CAB open to our resumes, especially after five 4 years of knowing production and on-air and research and 5 interviews and music in and out. But it is just the 6 training that in terms of for us that we have to spend 7 a staff that much time with that much turnover. That 8 is really where we need help. There is a void of 9 resources to get those people trained and up to par. 10 223 It is great to hear of these programs 11 but that is already when they have been with us for 12 years and it is the before where we need help. 13 224 SUSAN ENGLEBERT: So you are saying 14 that you need, when people come into your station, you 15 need help in training them, is that where you are 16 going? 17 225 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I would say -- I am 18 saying that the program that you have is great. But 19 for sure a training program would be incredibly 20 helpful. 21 226 At the station where I work, I am the 22 only person in the whole programming department and we 23 are only three full-time staff. Come September, I 24 have, what, a hundred new volunteers to train all by 25 myself and I can't. So how many people of those stay, StenoTran 58 1 go, how much follow-up can I do? Again, I am just 2 human, one person. 3 227 And, for sure, if we can get help 4 with some kind of training, especially from the CBC or 5 people that are from a campus community radio sector, 6 then that would be amazing. 7 228 HAL BLACKADAR: I think, if I may, 8 just so I do understand this correctly, you have 9 mentioned this morning, among the other challenges you 10 have, one is the financial challenge. Both you and 11 John have spoken about the issue of digital which is a 12 topic unto itself which private broadcasters are having 13 equally the challenge to find funds to develop their 14 business plan into the new technology. So we would 15 share your concerns as well that we have to find that 16 money somewhere. 17 229 I guess I would say to the commission 18 that there are undoubtedly, perhaps, under the present 19 benefits test, ways in which funds could be directed 20 towards your program. However, I am not exactly quite 21 clear how broad those may be. 22 230 I think at this point the benefits 23 test -- and correct me if I am wrong here -- that has 24 generally concentrated primarily on the development of 25 Canadian musical artists and programming, and I am StenoTran 59 1 thinking of the musical side. And I think that there 2 has been less emphasis, if you like, on the journalism 3 side and less emphasis, particularly on the hard costs 4 that are associated directly down into the 5 infrastructure of the campus stations. 6 231 And I maybe during this review 7 process it may be up to the commission to decide 8 whether or not to open that door or not to see if there 9 are some areas there in benefits task that would be 10 applicable, that can work for all parties, and see 11 whether or not that is a good use of those funds as we 12 go through the benefits test or some other ways to 13 develop that. 14 232 JOHN STEVENSON: I understand that 15 the commercial stations have a huge challenge with 16 digital radio, but it is -- for campus radio it is 17 simply overwhelming. There is no money in the bank 18 that these stations have that -- well, I think maybe a 19 couple of stations have been saving up for digital, 20 whatever form that is going to take. 21 233 But by and large stations, they may 22 be running a deficit in one year. They may have to 23 borrow money from a student organization or from the 24 university to continue. These are non-profit stations. 25 The challenge is frightening for our stations. StenoTran 60 1 234 And we would -- I think the time has 2 come for a serious look at the benefits test and having 3 some funds from benefits tests applied to our sector in 4 a systematic way. Standard Radio did that. They have 5 been the only people within the broadcasting sector who 6 have done that. And the benefits it to everyone 7 involved, I think, are considerable. And a little 8 money from the commercial sector means a huge, huge -- 9 makes a huge difference to the non-commercial sector. 10 And that is something that we'd really like to see. 11 235 ANNE-MARIE MURPHY: I would like to 12 clarify the current benefits test as defined in the 13 latest commercial policy. First of all, it is a policy 14 and the commission did say that it would generally 15 require a certain allocation. So that is number one. 16 236 Secondly, out of a transaction, the 6 17 per cent is to be allocated, yes, 3 per cent to a new 18 fund to be created, the Canadian Music Marketing and 19 Promotion Fund. 2 per cent to either Music Action or 20 Facteur. And then 1 per cent which is left to the 21 discretion of the purchaser to either of those 22 initiatives, but is left pretty well open to other 23 Canadian talent initiatives, which is very broad, or to 24 eligible third parties as defined under the CAB 25 guidelines for Canadian talent development. StenoTran 61 1 237 So that, as it currently exists under 2 that general allocation model, 1 per cent could be 3 potentially directed to other initiatives that are not 4 defined. 5 238 HAL BLACKADAR: I take it that that 6 would require a definition that would permit campus 7 stations, for example, to qualify, though, would that 8 be correct? 9 239 ANNE-MARIE MURPHY: Under the current 10 Canadian talent development policy, there are -- there 11 is -- there are guidelines that are a little bit more 12 definitive. But when I read this policy, I see other 13 Canadian talent development initiatives as undefined in 14 addition to the CTD program. 15 240 So I would suspect that proposals 16 would be considered under that 1 per cent. 17 241 RICHARD FRITH: It probably, though, 18 Hal would be a lot easier, and Caroline and John, 19 easier to deal with if the initiative -- because there 20 is this umbrella thing, this sort of umbrella 21 requirement in the policy that says that basically the 22 acid test is that all money has to go towards 23 development of Canadian and other artistic talent. 24 242 It would seem to be more in the 25 spirit -- and I am speaking hypothetically -- if it had StenoTran 62 1 to do with projects for campus radio that were sort of 2 under the rubric of initiatives that you guys took to 3 develop Canadian talent than going, like, to general 4 operating funds of the station. Because that seems to 5 be one step removed, although we have not really 6 thought it through. 7 243 THE MODERATOR: It is a policy that 8 we are going to be reviewing. And I was thinking as I 9 was listening to Hal that, yes, there is the benefits 10 test and I would agree with Anne-Marie that that 1 per 11 cent is open enough that if the suggestion comes 12 forward that a broadcaster would indeed like to make 13 that 1 per cent contribution to campus radio, that is 14 something that would very logically be considered under 15 that. 16 244 Secondly, there is the Canadian 17 talent development initiative. And, again, I think 18 this is where I think it needs to be clarified on 19 behalf of campus radio stations, what is the talent 20 being developed so that we can look at the definitions 21 which we are interpreting now very leniently so we take 22 as broad an interpretation as possible and see if we 23 can fit that in. 24 245 The third element, it seems to me, 25 something, Jill, that you have raised when you were StenoTran 63 1 talking, I think, the star system idea from CAB and 2 whether that is something that can itself be expanded 3 to include a star system for campus radios. Also, 4 include the kind of training, whether it is 5 journalistic training, whether it is the kind of 6 infrastructure programming training, and whether there 7 is any potential there. So that there would, in fact, 8 be three elements which are potential sources to assist 9 campus radio. 10 246 CAROLINE CâTÉ: What is very 11 important to us, because we have always been eligible 12 for the benefits test, but as we have said, only one 13 commercial broadcaster has given us money. We would 14 very much like to be written in the policy that we are 15 eligible, that money can go to us. And more than even 16 in the 1 per cent which is very vague, but even in the 17 3 per cent for local talent development. But we need 18 to be written there so that even if there is a staff 19 change at our station, which happens and so forth, 20 people can say: Oh, yeah, we can give money to them. 21 They exist. We can give money to them. Because we 22 have not seen that in the past because it hasn't been 23 specific. 24 247 THE MODERATOR: I understand. Part 25 of the problem that we have -- and we have actually StenoTran 64 1 tried to develop such a list, an eligibility list and 2 it gets very long, it gets very complicated and then 3 you get the what-ifs. 4 248 And part of it I think really is the 5 necessity to develop the communication links. I do 6 think that one of the things that is happening this 7 morning is that we are getting more of those 8 communication links there. And where the CRTC can help 9 in identifying or providing incentives or incentives 10 for incentives as we go through the various processes I 11 think there would be a strong willingness to do that. 12 Where we can assist in the communication function and 13 making those linkages, I think we would be happy to do 14 that. 15 249 It does become very complicated to 16 create an eligibility list because there are always 17 exceptions. There is always one more. And I think we 18 could probably find a more productive way, but 19 certainly the message you are delivering is one that I 20 am hearing around the table very well received. 21 250 JILL BIRCH: Susan, if I could just 22 comment, I think right now, specific to the Canadian 23 talent development, if we can work with the CRTC to get 24 some flexibility there, you can count on it that CAB 25 would get the word out to its membership that this is a StenoTran 65 1 new opportunity. 2 251 And dovetailing with that is that 3 radio is very conscious of its future right now. I 4 think now more so than ever radio is looking ahead. 5 They want to be able to anticipate what the future 6 challenges are going to be and meet them. And 7 certainly with Howard Stern coming to Canada, that 8 incident in itself has caused radio stations to reflect 9 on, you know, what have we done? What should we be 10 doing? How can we invest in our infrastructure? How 11 can we invest in our future? 12 252 And what we are really trying to do 13 at CAB is help position radio as a viable, wonderful 14 medium, which it is, and ensure its development and its 15 growth. And so if we can help you in the sense of 16 providing some relief, because it seems that it is 17 something that is very much required, we will do 18 everything we can to do that. So look to us to work 19 with those solutions with the CRTC. 20 253 THE MODERATOR: Just on the digital 21 radio side, and I am well aware of how expensive that 22 is, I don't know whether there is any communication 23 with Digital Radio Research Inc., whether they know or 24 are aware of the issues relating to campus radio. It 25 certainly is a body that is examining and implementing StenoTran 66 1 digital radio. They are dealing with the transition 2 period. Now, it is not necessarily funding but, again, 3 it may be another forum where if they are aware that, 4 oh, yes, maybe there could be some linkages or some 5 partnerships there. 6 254 And, Jill, I know the CAB is 7 certainly a member of the DRRI board and maybe it would 8 just be worthwhile to invite NCRA or whomever would be 9 appropriate in to discuss with DRRI. Again, it is just 10 to increase the awareness and, you know, there is so 11 much innovation out there, who knows what might come of 12 something like that. 13 255 CAROLINE CâTÉ: In terms of digital 14 radio, the times that I have talked to the man from 15 Standard who is on the board, I think, in dealing with 16 digital radio a lot. Every time that I was talking and 17 asking questions about digital, it was -- there is not 18 that many answers. And we have been having a hard time 19 getting any kind of communication as to what is 20 happening. 21 256 And, also, in the past, we had to 22 fight with l'ARC du Quebec in Canada to get a seat on 23 Industry Canada's committee on looking at digital 24 radio. And I was actually supposed to meet with Lucie 25 after this meeting, Lucie from l'ARC du Quebec, because StenoTran 67 1 she found that they had been meeting without her. And 2 after fighting for our seat and that she was the one 3 representing the non-profit sector, that people had 4 been meeting without her and telling us at all what was 5 going on. And she said it was about a year and a half 6 she had not heard from them at all and found out 7 through the grapevine that they had been meeting 8 without her. So another reason why we are worried 9 about digital. 10 257 HAL BLACKADAR: If I may, I am 11 intrigued by your comments on digital radio and in the 12 initial committee that was set up, as I recall, a 13 tripartite committee, there were representatives 14 initially from campus and community radio stations. 15 And I am just not sure what happened along the way, but 16 we went through those meetings. 17 258 But could I ask you this: When we 18 are talking about the digital world, I am a little 19 surprised that your emphasis is on a digital 20 broadcasting concept rather than the digital world of 21 the Internet which would strike me to be a world that 22 you people know better probably than anyone, but in a 23 confined area where your audio streaming and all of 24 that in itself is a great opportunity. And I am just 25 wondering whether or not you have looked at the digital StenoTran 68 1 world of audio streaming on campus in that milieu, 2 rather than broadcasting side of trying to get into 3 this huge investment which is going to take digital. 4 259 CAROLINE CâTÉ: We have very much 5 looked at that. It is not that we don't have people at 6 our stations. I mean, we have the people at our 7 stations that know how to do that. But, again, money 8 to pay them to do that -- the equipment even that extra 9 Marantz tied up to the computer to load in our 10 programs, having the space. 11 260 JOHN STEVENSON: There are similar 12 financial challenges to doing live streaming. 13 261 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Although not as 14 large. 15 262 JOHN STEVENSON: No, not as large, 16 but because you would need to have a dedicated server 17 and band width and those are all -- particularly for 18 the band width are ongoing expenses where there is no 19 cost recovery. 20 263 So it is -- doing radio over the 21 Internet has interested me for quite a while and I know 22 some stations are doing it because they have the 23 support of their university computer people. So I know 24 that they are doing it down in London at Western and I 25 am sure a couple of other people are doing it. StenoTran 69 1 264 But you need stuff donated to you in 2 order to do it because unless someone on the computer 3 side of stuff says: Okay. Well, we will help you do 4 it, we will give you the server space and you can run 5 off this Internet line, you can't do it. You just 6 don't have the option of doing it because the expenses 7 are too high and you can't necessarily see the benefits 8 in the short term. 9 265 CAROLINE CâTÉ: And then also not 10 even all of our stations have access. I know Industry 11 Canada has a program to help non-profits get onto the 12 Internet, but that has been taking so long and they are 13 talking about the year 2000 and we would have needed it 14 five years ago and, you know, that kind of thing. 15 266 MORAG YORK: I was going to comment 16 that like in CJSW, in Calgary, I think, they have a 17 live stream that I am aware of. But, you know, on the 18 other side of it is the receivership, the ability of 19 listeners to actually be able to hear it and campus 20 radio especially is aiming for what is often called 21 marginalized groups who are maybe less likely to have 22 access to computers or the kind of equipment that you 23 could use to receive Internet, maybe even less than 24 other listenership populations. 25 267 And just going back to the carrier StenoTran 70 1 current thing, I remember when I was in Victoria and I 2 was talking to the computer people and we were talking 3 about the training licence. And I was saying: You 4 know, what is wrong with carrier current or something 5 like that, why don't you just do that, you know, it is 6 a good solution. And they all kind of looked at me 7 like I was crazy and said: No, you have got to be able 8 to turn it on, the receiver, like you've got to be able 9 to turn it on in your car, it makes a huge difference. 10 If people don't -- if they can't turn on the radio and 11 hear you, you might as well not exist. It makes a huge 12 difference to be able to be over the air, for people to 13 go home, turn on the receiver and hear you. And I 14 think you have the same problem with the Internet in 15 that sense. It is not really there on the receiver 16 side. 17 268 JOHN STEVENSON: And I am a big short 18 wave radio fan from my childhood and Internet radio now 19 is very similar to the short wave. I mean, there's 20 lots of stuff you can listen to, but you have got to 21 have the equipment and you have got to find the 22 material. 23 269 Maybe it is not quite as bad as short 24 wave, but it is not mass media, you know, it is 25 push-pull kind of stuff. StenoTran 71 1 270 RICHARD FRITH: John, the thing with 2 carrier current, I think, is you can turn it on and you 3 can get it on the radio, but you also get a big, big 4 buzz if you have got any lights like this, right? 5 271 JOHN STEVENSON: Oh, it is an 6 adventure. I know that when they did it at Guelph 7 years and years ago, that they did not set it up right. 8 And the power -- you are only supposed to do the power 9 lines in particular parts of campus, so it is supposed 10 to be blocked off from going downtown. And it went all 11 the way downtown. It was so strong it was just 12 overwhelming, which is, of course, our long-term goal. 13 It was overwhelming all these other stations. And this 14 buzz, everyone's a.m. station. So it is not, it is a 15 great idea that just does not work very well. You 16 might as well be using a string and tin cups, that 17 would be another option. 18 272 THE MODERATOR: I guess just to carry 19 on the concern side. It is probably worthwhile for the 20 limited audience. But, you know, as I listened to CBC 21 and CAB talking earlier, the whole idea of drawing the 22 diversity from campus radio into the mainstream of the 23 system is something that you would not want to lose, 24 either. 25 273 And so to marginalize, if that is StenoTran 72 1 what would happen through the use of the Internet, 2 while that may be a valuable complement to everything 3 that is going on, probably the transition to digital 4 still remains an issue. And it may be that the 5 transition timing is somewhat longer for campus than 6 others, but that is certainly an issue that should be 7 addressed. 8 274 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Maybe also if we can 9 start on projects such as getting us the computers and 10 that equipment and starting with that and then with the 11 longer commitments and partnership. 12 275 HAL BLACKADAR: I think those are 13 very valuable points. I think that it is kind of 14 interesting that we as broadcasters are, in fact, 15 probably, interestingly enough, moving probably more 16 toward Internet broadcasting or should be as in concert 17 with digital over the air. 18 276 But it is kind of interesting that we 19 as broadcasters need to define our way to the Internet 20 because that is where the future will be. That is 21 where the future lies. And it is not, generally 22 speaking, going to be necessarily over the air as much 23 as we are seeing to this point in time according to the 24 Internet. Clearly, the Internet is going to be a huge 25 source of revenue and a huge source of listenership as StenoTran 73 1 we go along. 2 277 I think, though, if you look at the 3 digital role out in this country -- and Madam Chair 4 your point is a very good one -- if you look at the 5 digital role out in this country, we are now underway 6 shortly in Toronto, shortly thereafter in Vancouver and 7 in Montreal, with digital. I would expect by the time 8 we get into markets like London and Halifax and some of 9 these other markets, we will be some time out. At 10 which point in time I think you will find that the 11 costs that we have seen to date to buy digital 12 equipment is going to come down considerably. And to 13 give you some idea of how much it has come down, it is 14 -- today a transmitter is about a third of the cost of 15 what it was six or seven years ago when we first became 16 involved with digital radio. So that cost is coming 17 down. 18 278 It may be advantageous to not be on 19 the first wave coming in, but to find yourself 20 somewhere a little later on when the costs are far more 21 cost effective. And, frankly, at this point in time 22 there are no receivers in this country. Well, CBC has 23 three, I think, and we have listened to them. But set 24 penetration is going to be an interesting cost as well 25 because the average cost at this point is still about StenoTran 74 1 $700. So we have got some distance to go. 2 279 CAROLINE CâTÉ: And that is just for 3 the receiver. We have mentioned our budgets, right. 4 We can imagine the rest. 5 280 MORAG YORK: I was just going to say 6 that digital radio, you know, because of the nature of 7 it where you have one transmitter that can broadcast 8 five signals, it does seem to be a natural area where 9 you could have some partnerships or cooperation. 10 281 And I know the CBC has been 11 especially involved in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal. I 12 was wondering if there has been some discussion or some 13 thought about partnering with some of the smaller 14 stations in the market if you have four services 15 somewhere and you have a fifth channel available. Have 16 you thought about that at all? 17 282 SUSAN ENGLEBERT: I am probably not 18 really the person to answer this. I really do not 19 know. I mean, I know, as I am sure everyone does know, 20 that CBC has been meeting with private broadcasters and 21 inviting them to hop on their system, their 22 transmitters. But I do not know if they have gone any 23 further than that. 24 283 CAROLINE CâTÉ: And we have said that 25 we would like to be part of those meetings. StenoTran 75 1 284 THE MODERATOR: Okay. Perhaps I 2 could just suggest that we take a quick break and if 3 there are other issues address them upon returning. 4 285 One of the issues I thought we might 5 talk about just after a five-minute break, if we could, 6 is the issue that you raised, John, about the board of 7 directors, the ownership and control issue. And I 8 thought that with the people that we have around the 9 table, perhaps there is some good advice, some 10 experience that may be useful as we are all examining 11 that issue. And maybe we could talk about that a 12 little after a break. 13 --- Suspension à 1012/Recess at 1012 14 --- Reprise à 1030/Resumed at 1030 15 286 THE MODERATOR: Perhaps I could just 16 ask you to give a brief recap of ownership control of 17 student unions. 18 287 JOHN STEVENSON: It is a pretty well 19 known fact that campus radio stations do not have very 20 much continuity. That is that compared to other kinds 21 of organizations, non-profit organizations and other 22 kind of media, there are not a lot of people who stay 23 with campus radio for long periods of time, say, at 24 most more than six or seven years. 25 288 But that is more continuity than StenoTran 76 1 student government tends to have, which might turn over 2 100 per cent every year. So the situation, it has come 3 up a few times and I think it comes up in the life of 4 every campus radio station that the student union wants 5 to change something fundamental about the radio 6 station, change its mandate. People in student 7 government are well-intentioned, but they are 8 cripplingly under-informed about the sector and about 9 what the history of the station and that sort of thing. 10 289 Some of the most experienced and 11 respected people in campus radio have been victims of 12 this kind of change. I know one manager who was with 13 the station for more than ten years and was a very 14 important resource to campus radio all across Canada 15 and because of changes within the student union he was 16 asked to resign and one of the people who had 17 engineered his resignation actually took his place to 18 try to make the station more in the image of what that 19 particular student union wanted that year. It is very 20 unfortunate because campus stations are not just 21 accountable to the university community, to the 22 university staff and particularly to the students; they 23 are also accountable to the community at this point. 24 And it is that responsibility that can be endangered by 25 a student union that simply wants the station to play StenoTran 77 1 -- start playing country music or adult contemporary or 2 something which is completely contrary to the licence 3 of the station and to the history of the station. 4 290 So the members of the NCRA, at the 5 last conference, voted to recommend to the commission 6 that new stations that are licensed not be licensed 7 solely to the student union. There are other models 8 for licensing. I know at the University of Guelph and 9 at Dalhousie University, I worked at both stations, 10 there was an independent organization that was created 11 either a society or a non-profit corporation. At 12 Guelph it was a corporation that had been founded in 13 part by a student group and in part by the university. 14 It was the merger of two clubs that had existed. But 15 it was a separate incorporated entity that had board 16 members from the university administration and student 17 representatives but it also had mandatory 18 representatives from the community as well that were 19 elected and were volunteer. So it provides a balance 20 of the directors. 21 291 And that is the sort of model that is 22 going to allow stations to move forward without undue 23 influence from student unions. 24 292 RICHARD FRITH: And I think that is 25 something that we try to encourage because, you know, I StenoTran 78 1 would say in most cases it is the case now. And the 2 other thing that happens, if you license a student 3 union group directly, we found in a couple of cases, 4 you know, you could get a situation where the number of 5 non-Canadians on the student board was greater than 6 permitted under the Order in Council that we operate 7 under. So that is one point. 8 293 The other -- the current condition of 9 license on the board of a campus station sort of is 10 pretty open in that it says only that the majority of 11 members of the board of directors have to be somehow 12 connected with the institution, be they students, 13 volunteer, faculty. 14 294 Does that -- do you think that that 15 current condition meets the needs of NCRA? Because 16 that is something we put together basically in the last 17 policy review and I was interested in whether or not 18 that seems to be a good condition for your purposes. 19 295 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I don't know how much 20 people paid attention to that, to be honest. I know 21 that CHUO we have the problem that our board, is it 22 three? Three members of our board are just put on by 23 the student union and they tell us that we are not 24 their priority. So I cannot imagine them be the 25 licence holders. And most of the people that are on StenoTran 79 1 our board, only two of them are part of the station 2 they are volunteer reps. And then we have two staff, 3 including myself, and we do not have a vote. So I 4 think it has to be clear, way more clear. 5 296 JOHN STEVENSON: I felt for a long 6 time and I felt -- I said this in the last review, back 7 in '92, that campus stations need to be mandated as a 8 kind of community station. And that, given that, 9 having a majority of members of the board being 10 associated with the university is not really 11 appropriate. There should be university representation 12 on the board, if that is the case, but I am not really 13 -- it is a while since I have had to deal with the 14 board. I think probably since the last review I have 15 not dealt with a campus review of a station board, so I 16 was not aware of that change. 17 297 MORAG YORK: If you look at the 18 funding of most campus stations, there is sort of three 19 sources of funding. There is advertising, there is 20 direct funding through funding drives, listenership 21 funding and there is a student association funding. 22 And, in most cases, direct fees from students make up 23 maybe about a third of the budget of a campus station. 24 And I think that the condition that Rick was talking 25 about was an attempt to make sure that there was some StenoTran 80 1 accountability for that funding that came from the 2 students. So I think that we would want to see some 3 mechanism in the ownership that ensures that students 4 who are funding perhaps a third of the station have 5 some representation on the board and at least some 6 accountability back and forth. 7 298 Now, that does not necessarily mean 8 -- you know, the two are not exclusive. You could have 9 some direct representation from the student, but not 10 necessarily through the student association. But I 11 think that that was the concern we were trying to 12 address and we need to find some kind of compromise on 13 that. 14 299 JILL BIRCH: On another tangent, 15 there are some places that you can get help. 16 300 In a previous life I worked with the 17 Canadian Society of Association Executives and one of 18 the things that CSAE does is it assists not-for-profit 19 organizations, NGOs, in working with boards of 20 directors. 21 301 There is a number of books and 22 pamphlets and seminars that the association holds and 23 you don't even have to be a member to go to these 24 seminars. You can be a member but specifically to that 25 point, because the challenges of reporting to a StenoTran 81 1 volunteer board, as I am sure all of us have 2 experienced over the course of our lives is sometimes 3 difficult, and that is there to support and help. 4 302 So if there is further information I 5 can give you on that, I would be happy to share that 6 with you. Because I think this is one of the 7 challenges you have, as John was saying, is you are on 8 a roll for ten years, a new person comes in, and he 9 says: Well, I could do that job five times better and 10 you are gone. 11 303 And the whole issue there becomes 12 orientation of the board that when you have your first 13 meeting is what is your orientation that you give to 14 the volunteers and who is mandated to do that. And you 15 almost need to have a systematic process where you say, 16 you know, this is how we operate and that involves a 17 lot of succession planning with volunteers and a number 18 of issues like that. So there is tonnes of 19 information. One of the gurus is John Carver. He has 20 a book out on board governance that you can pretty well 21 get anywhere. I don't know if that would help, but it 22 is a huge issue. 23 304 JOHN STEVENSON: I think those kind 24 of resources are really important, but there is not 25 really any substitute for continuity and for having StenoTran 82 1 most of the people on the board familiar with what you 2 are doing and when -- if the majority are from the 3 student government, they will not be familiar with what 4 you are doing. And you are under, you are basically -- 5 it does not matter how long you have been there or if 6 they get the idea in their head that, you know, they 7 are going to change the station and they need to make 8 changes and your costing too much money or whatever 9 kind of problems may happen. That is not 10 accountability to the students, that is simply student 11 politics. That is, you know, university student 12 politics. 13 305 You know, when I came out of 14 university student organizations and went into work for 15 other non-profits, I was expecting the same kind of 16 political environment. And it does not exist in -- 17 whatever challenges non-profits have outside of 18 universities, they, they are -- they tend to have a 19 core group of people, the organizations that know, you 20 know, that have been there for a while, they know the 21 rules and so on and that is quite a bit less common at 22 the university student organizations. 23 306 JILL BIRCH: And just the flip side 24 of that, there is one issue where you are trying to 25 orientate your volunteers and what their roles and StenoTran 83 1 responsibilities are. But I think the other issue is 2 to seek help for yourself in the sense of how do I work 3 with volunteers? How do I understand what motivates 4 them? You know, why are they here? And what is their 5 agenda, whether it is hidden or open. So part of it, I 6 think, is developing the skills required to understand 7 the mind set. And, again, you know, there are 8 organizations that can help you with that. There are 9 philanthropic groups who have all kinds of information 10 and programs. Because part of it is just getting it in 11 your own head where they are at and then kind of 12 working either around or through them whichever works 13 best for you. 14 307 THE MODERATOR: All on the public 15 record. 16 308 ANDREW CARDOZO: Can I just come back 17 to Morag's point about accountability. If the campus 18 radio station is getting a certain amount of money from 19 the students via student council, is there a balance or 20 a way you can see that would be acceptable where there 21 would be some connection between the student council 22 and the board of the radio station? 23 309 JOHN STEVENSON: Well, I do not think 24 anyone is arguing that there should not be people from 25 student government on the board. StenoTran 84 1 310 ANDREW CARDOZO: Not the majority, 2 you are saying. 3 311 JOHN STEVENSON: It is just that I 4 know the stations that have the student union running 5 the licence versus stations that do not and you are 6 always dealing with student government. There tends to 7 be a lot of shared resources between student 8 government, maybe you share a photocopier, maybe you 9 share the accountant. 10 312 So that is going to be a given that 11 you have contact with people. And if you are working 12 in the sector that you are familiar with the people in 13 student government, that you talk to them and have a 14 sense of what their priorities are and that sort of 15 thing and that has been my experience. 16 313 The danger is when, if you are 17 completely at the whim of people in student government 18 and they can make arbitrary decisions about the 19 station. And I do not think anyone would argue that 20 there should not be contact with people in student 21 government and that sort of thing. 22 314 ANDREW CARDOZO: Have there been 23 instances of the student government trying to decide 24 what you say about them? Like, what you say in terms 25 of the politics of student council and run-up to StenoTran 85 1 student elections or council elections and so on. 2 315 JOHN STEVENSON: I can't recall any 3 -- I am trying to remember. There has been other fun 4 things that have happened. Not that one in particular. 5 That is more a student paper sort of problem. I know 6 that that happens quite a bit in the student press, but 7 in terms of influence, no. It tends to be more around 8 programming and they cannot understand why we are doing 9 the programming that we are doing, why we are not 10 playing, you know, more Aerosmith, that sort of thing. 11 316 But that is within the context of a 12 lot of -- you know, the vast majority of these people 13 in student government understanding what you are doing 14 and supporting it. It is just that it doesn't take -- 15 they just need one bad year to -- it happened at 16 Windsor, it happened at Fredericton, I think it has 17 happened at Western. Every once in a while it happens 18 and it throws you back to the point where you have to 19 build it all back up, again, volunteers get angry and 20 leave, a lot of energy goes into fighting for something 21 and it is a lot of wasted energy. 22 317 MORAG YORK: Maybe I can just follow 23 up on John's point about the programming a little bit. 24 It leads us to sort of part of the elements of the 1992 25 policies. As I understand it from Richard, when we StenoTran 86 1 developed the 1992 policy -- it looks like I'm blaming 2 you. 3 318 RICHARD FRITH: I think it is good. 4 319 MORAG YORK: I think it's a brilliant 5 policy, Richard. 6 320 Some of the elements of that policy 7 are fairly detailed regulatory requirements, things 8 like the spoken word level, the hit level, the 9 requirement for a certain level of music programming 10 from different categories. There is a number of 11 regulatory requirements that are reflected in the 12 promise of performance that do not apply to commercial 13 radio at this point any more but we've left that them 14 for campus radio. And the sense that we had, I think, 15 in 1992 was that they helped to provide some protection 16 to campus stations in the event that they do get some 17 pressure from the students' association to develop the 18 more mainstream sound or more commercial sound. This 19 gives you something. 20 321 And I have had calls from people 21 saying: My student association wants me to play hits, 22 can I tell them that the CRTC only lets me do 10 per 23 cent hits? Or something like that. They want to have 24 those kind of things to point to. 25 322 So I was just wondering if you could StenoTran 87 1 give me a sense of how many of those regulations or if 2 those regulations or those details or those elements of 3 the policy are still serving that purpose, if there is 4 a way they could be improved or streamlined. Do you 5 have any concerns in that area? 6 323 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Basically, if we have 7 not mentioned it, it is because we like things the way 8 they are. They have been serving for that. And also 9 for our new staff coming on, well, look at the licence, 10 read the policies. 11 324 MORAG YORK: So you do not see that 12 as difficult. 13 325 CAROLINE CâTÉ: As a constraint, no. 14 326 MORAG YORK: And they reflect what 15 you want to do, mostly? 16 327 CAROLINE CâTÉ: Yeah. 17 328 MORAG YORK: I told you it was 18 brilliant, Richard. 19 329 THE MODERATOR: Is there anything 20 else that you would like to see in there to help with 21 some -- address some of the concerns you have 22 expressed? 23 330 You can always get back to us on 24 that. 25 331 JOHN STEVENSON: I don't know if StenoTran 88 1 there was anything else that came out of the conference 2 about that stuff. Because I wasn't there. 3 332 CAROLINE CâTÉ: And for sure with the 4 call for comments, right, this is just a beginning. We 5 are going to be doing lots of brainstorming from here 6 and lots of proposals, especially with things like the 7 music categories. So we can have a proposal (a), (b) 8 and (c) as to how we can get those things to better 9 work for us. 10 333 I would just like to come back for a 11 minute in terms of the ownership. A small example of 12 having our station -- people on the board being mainly 13 student government like, with us right now at CHUO, the 14 new treasurer is always the treasurer of the student 15 union. Comes in, says, oh, you guys are in debt, how 16 can we get out of debt? Oh, you have to sell more 17 commercials and you have to be more commercial. Oh, I 18 am going to call the CRTC and see how we can change 19 that licence. And that is typical, right. 20 334 And that is without them being the 21 holders of our licence. And then it does change our 22 direction. And you are mentioning the orientation 23 because the majority of the people on the board are not 24 station people and then they decide that that is now 25 our direction is trying to change our licence. StenoTran 89 1 335 So it throws us for a definite loop 2 and brings us back. And they are not thinking of the 3 volunteers. Like, we know the volunteers we are used 4 to. We know what we are doing in terms of staff and 5 the volunteers. But then those are people who do not 6 come into the station and look at the books and say: 7 Oh, how do we get out of that? And they are just 8 thinking: Well, add more commerciality. If you did 9 not have so much third language programming, if you 10 didn't have so much French programming, then. 11 336 JOHN STEVENSON: But they other side 12 of that is they do not know commercial radio and they 13 just have this conception of how radio is supposed to 14 work. But they come in and they say: Well, sell more 15 ads, or do this or do that. You start mixing up what 16 is going on on the air, you start playing more music 17 that is perceived to be commercial, that could drive 18 away your audience. 19 337 But they think, you know, we are 20 student government, we can fix the problem. And they 21 do not know enough about the sector or about radio 22 generally to even address it. 23 338 JOAN PENNEFATHER: This is related to 24 this discussion in the sense that in Victoria and today 25 as well, you raised the issue of balance, the policy StenoTran 90 1 related to balance. I was -- it is coming back to 2 mind, because as you discussed the board of directors 3 and the influence they do or do not have on 4 programming, I think John said it was programming where 5 the issues really begin to arise. If you are proposing 6 a different mix, you are also proposing, perhaps, 7 different expectations, more community, what community, 8 what representation, which brings me back to balance. 9 339 And I was wondering if both of you 10 could just expand a little bit more on that concern, 11 what it specifically means in terms of a review. You 12 said could you review it. Why? What are you looking 13 to change there, or what does it mean to you, the 14 current policy of balance? 15 340 JOHN STEVENSON: Well, the biggest 16 concern I have always had about that policy that came 17 out of the Co-op Radio in Vancouver licence renewal and 18 that was ten years ago now, and that was the first 19 thing I had to deal with when I was on the NCRA board, 20 the concern that has always come out of that is that it 21 has a chilling effect -- it discourages people within 22 the sector from dealing with issues or putting people 23 on the air that may have strong opinions that are 24 legitimate opinions that are defensible. But it 25 discourages people from going forward with that. And StenoTran 91 1 that concern comes out of the perception and maybe 2 people at the commission can clarify it, the perception 3 that when we put someone on the air and they have an 4 opinion that generates reaction from a listenership, 5 the perception now is that we are obligated to produce 6 programming which balances the opinions that are 7 expressed. 8 341 So it is not good enough that if 9 someone goes on the air and says something and someone 10 complains, we are not just -- it is not just good 11 enough to say to that person who is complaining: Well, 12 why don't you come in and we will record you talking 13 about this for ten minutes. They can say: Well, no, I 14 am not going to do that, I am not going to come in, you 15 have got to do it. 16 342 And as the policy currently reads, 17 and I know I was reading an e-mail debate that went on 18 this summer between a couple of people about this. As 19 the policy currently reads, it seems as if we are 20 obligated to produce programming somehow to provide 21 balance to legitimate opinions and points of view that 22 we as a station did not directly produce. 23 343 So in the case of Co-op Radio, it was 24 the Voice of Palestine program. And they said things 25 that some people in the local communities did not agree StenoTran 92 1 with and it was not good enough that they were offered 2 time to give their own opinions. The expectation was, 3 according to the policy, was that we would -- that 4 Co-op Radio would go on the air and somehow, I don't 5 know how, produce a balance when all we are doing for 6 the most part is providing access for these people to 7 provide their opinions. And I think that is the 8 concern. 9 344 And I think everyone in the sector 10 would be committed to fairness. But balance when there 11 are so many different sides to so many different 12 contentious stories and we want to provide those 13 different sides, I think that the issue, the idea of 14 balance is a difficult one. 15 345 JOAN PENNEFATHER: It is difficult, 16 it always is very challenging, whether you are talking 17 a system or you are talking individual program. But I 18 do think it is an important one to discuss because of 19 the very nature of the campus radio stations. We all 20 mentioned at the beginning the alternative voice, the 21 diversity of opinion. What does that really mean in 22 the day-to-day? And reading the policy one can 23 interpret it different ways. That is what I wanted to 24 hear. What exactly does it in the day-to-day turn out 25 to mean? How have you interpreted it? StenoTran 93 1 346 Have you anything to add, Caroline? 2 347 CAROLINE CâTÉ: The example of Co-op 3 Radio and the Voice of Palestine is a incredible 4 example and a specific example, something that I have 5 not heard of ever happening again in terms of the 6 different opinions. 7 348 I see no problem in that at our 8 stations that with the lesbian, bisexual, gay, 9 transgendered show that there would be people from each 10 of those communities in a certain debate given a voice 11 as much as possible. 12 349 I mean, we do go out, people know to 13 go out and get those different opinions within a show. 14 But then if we get a complaint then with that show, 15 right, because we are the only ones that are providing 16 a voice that are giving, again, access to certain 17 groups to voice opinions and give -- and to speak of a 18 certain issue, that form them, you know instead of 19 somebody, you know what I am trying to say, that then, 20 why do we see that as a balance in a way? 21 350 Especially in our definition, I was 22 shocked in Victoria to hear that, yes, then, we are 23 responsible for providing that balance because in our 24 definition we are the alternative voice. So who does 25 not have a voice, what opinions are not expressed in StenoTran 94 1 commercial radio, CBC, we give a voice to. And we see 2 that, we see ourselves very much as creating a balance. 3 351 So I was flabbergasted in Victoria 4 when this came up. 5 352 JOAN PENNEFATHER: And in doing that, 6 you, yourselves, according to policy, must create a 7 balance and what you are talking to me is your 8 interpretation of what that imposes upon you? 9 353 JOHN STEVENSON: I think that there 10 is -- I mean, I know that ten years ago there was a 11 perception that the sector would provide a balance 12 within -- provide another perspective within the system 13 as a whole. That was the argument that was made, that 14 the system as a whole needs to have diversity. And 15 that by particularly a co-op which has a lot of spoken 16 word programming, by going out and finding the people 17 that they did, they were going to be presenting 18 perspectives that were different than what is presented 19 on public broadcasting and commercial broadcasting. 20 354 Because of that, you get a 21 perspective about people's opinions and the kind of 22 ideas that are out there in the community that do not 23 fit neatly into an idea of, okay, here is X and here is 24 Y and they are fighting, you know. If you have got -- 25 every kind of cultural group and political group has StenoTran 95 1 different chunks within it with different opinions. 2 355 It does not seem to be very useful to 3 go out and if someone is giving a particular opinion 4 that may be contentious to roll up the tape and try to 5 come up with something that is contrary when you -- 6 when the opinion that they are presenting is, you know, 7 it is their perspective, it is their experience and 8 there is not an easy way to come up with balance in 9 that sense. And it just sort of implies that, you 10 know, it is what the mainstream media does. You know, 11 there is this group and then there is this group. 12 There is labour, there is management. There is 13 pro-life, there is pro-choice and they are fighting. 14 And the world that we see in campus radio is not that 15 straightforward. You have all sorts of different 16 perspectives. And it is tough. 17 356 And, as Caroline said, you know, that 18 is the last time I remember that there was a complaint 19 and that there was an issue around balance. Ever since 20 then, everyone has been worried about it more so than 21 anything else. They talk about it, they are scared. 22 And I don't know of any direct circumstances where 23 people have shyed away. I know that at CFRU, in 24 Guelph, it did not stop us from doing anything. 25 357 But I know there was a lot of -- back StenoTran 96 1 in the early 1990s, a lot of discussion on the air 2 about East Timor and the university was funding 3 development projects in Indonesia. And I was concerned 4 on a certain level about would we have to produce 5 something and would my spoken word people produce it or 6 not. And I did not want them to have to produce it. I 7 mean, this was a legitimate opinion. I do not want to 8 go on the air and say, yeah, Indonesia, go Indonesia. 9 It was not the moral position and I think that has been 10 proven to be the case over the years. 11 358 MARTINE VALLÉE: I don't know whether 12 it would be helpful or not and maybe Anne-Marie could 13 just jump in to tell us what the balance policy is. 14 But the balance policy applies to each individual 15 station and when a station is broadcasting a matter of 16 public concern, views on sort of a controversial 17 matter, it has a responsibility to present over a 18 reasonable period of time other points of view on that 19 matter to balance it out. 20 359 So it is not -- I mean, the 21 application of it is not if you, you know, you say 22 something about pro-life then you have to have a 23 program, a strong program about pro-choice. It is not 24 that you have to have one or the other, it is just 25 within a period of time that the audience should be StenoTran 97 1 exposed to other points of view on the issues. So it 2 does not necessarily mean that you have to have a 3 strong opinion on the other point of view, it is just 4 that other points of view are presented somehow. 5 360 JOHN STEVENSON: It is the some how 6 that is the sort of the problem. 7 361 MARTINE VALLÉE: We have this 8 conversation a lot with religious stations because we 9 define religion as a matter of public concern. So 10 religious stations by their very nature are obligated 11 to provide balance in their programming. And one of 12 the ways that we tell them that they can provide 13 balance is to have, perhaps, a show, a discussion show 14 or invite different people in a panel just to talk 15 about the issue and that sort of exposes other points 16 of view on the issue. We do not have any sort of set 17 rules exactly how what has to be done. But I think the 18 commission is fairly flexible in what it, you know, 19 what it perceives to be balance to the issue. 20 362 ANNE-MARIE MURPHY: I think that the 21 issue of balance and balance within each station is 22 something where numerous factors come into 23 consideration, one of which being the type of station 24 that is being examined. It will not be the only 25 factor, but, like everything else, because of all of StenoTran 98 1 the different circumstances, the context, the type of 2 licensee, all of those factors come into consideration. 3 So that it is not just having one show to balance 4 another show. 5 363 MORAG YORK: Well, the balance policy 6 applies to all broadcasting. It is not unique to the 7 campus radio sector. I was wondering if the CBC or CAB 8 had any comments on providing a balance programming, if 9 they have difficulty with it or how they accomplish it. 10 364 SUSAN ENGLEBERT: We do not have 11 difficulty with it, but we are all always very aware of 12 it. And, in fact, we have, as I am sure you know, we 13 have computer programs in place so that we keep track 14 of what we do. 15 365 Some of that is quite time-consuming 16 but we have to do it because obviously we are very much 17 sitting out there and we have to. It is something that 18 we just have to do. And we either do it -- it does not 19 necessarily have to be balance within a program. We 20 may find that we have somebody on the air with one 21 position which we will perhaps not invite someone else 22 on, on that program, but within a day or that week, 23 another different opinion has to be on the air. 24 366 It is tricky at times. You know, I 25 can understand. We are always extremely conscious of StenoTran 99 1 it. And it does take up time. There is no doubt about 2 it. But I do not have -- I do not have any answers to 3 your dilemma. It is just something that from the CBC 4 point of view that we must do. It is very important. 5 367 JOAN PENNEFATHER: Just one question 6 of clarification: What is the balance, music to spoken 7 word, on campus? Just approximately, how much music 8 versus how much spoken word. 9 368 CAROLINE CâTÉ: We do 25 per cent 10 spoken word. 11 369 THE MODERATOR: Jill or Hal, did you 12 want to say anything about this? 13 370 JILL BIRCH: I think a lot of the 14 venting that now goes on with radio, how it has 15 evolved, there is a continuous discussion and dialogue 16 now that is encouraged with talk-back lines and things 17 like that, that I think prevents a lot of complaints. 18 Because people feel: Well, I am going to call this 19 radio station and just give them a piece of my mind and 20 it gets on the air. 21 371 I think that is a remedy that I think 22 maybe radio has found. And I am going to defer to Hal 23 as the subject matter expert here. But I think 24 certainly there is ways that you can get around it in 25 terms of providing for that balance by encouraging it, StenoTran 100 1 saying: Look, if you have a problem, you know, call 2 this line and you will get on and, in fact, you will 3 hear yourself. 4 372 So people, I think, are able to 5 understand that there is an outlet. And perhaps in the 6 old days there was no outlet, it was a very one-way 7 mechanism. And I think radio now is developing 8 relationships in a different way with its listeners. 9 And saying: You know, we have an opinion for what it 10 is worth, but we want to hear what you think. 11 373 It is important for the radio station 12 to be real with its listeners to understand what they 13 think and that further defines and reflects their 14 programming. 15 374 So I don't know, Hal, if you have any 16 other comments you would like to add. 17 375 HAL BLACKADAR: I think that is true. 18 I think we have learned that hurtful words from 19 listeners is often easier to deal with than 20 correspondence with the commission. 21 376 I think that what I think we are 22 seeing today is broadcasters accepting the fact that 23 people do want to be heard. I mean, even my own rock 24 station in Toronto where listeners phone up and, you 25 know, we will put a montage of them together on the air StenoTran 101 1 back-to-back on the air. And they may have a very 2 strong view about something that was said by someone 3 without even a strong position when it was said. It 4 may be about a piece of music, it may be about 5 something that is happening. And that comment then 6 begets another comment that is on the other side so, 7 you know, you are there. 8 377 Beyond that station, if you -- I 9 think, in listening to talk stations, you hear that 10 people today seem to be much more aggressive in coming 11 out and not being reluctant to get those points of view 12 across. I know when I am listening to some other talk 13 stations around Toronto there is times when I am 14 tempted to phone in myself but then I am always 15 reluctant to confess that I am listening. 16 378 I think that, you know, in a strange 17 way, you know, your question is a very good question. 18 I hate to sort of parcel out in terms of minutes or 19 time of day, whatever, but somehow we seem to get there 20 in some way. But I don't know if we get there with a 21 big plan. I think it just kind of sort of happens 22 today. 23 379 I know that we are criticized from 24 time to time on some subject matters that we have done 25 where we have had to, as you say, back up a bit and StenoTran 102 1 say, okay, we have to provide something that is a more 2 reasonable balance here. But I really would like to 3 think that, at least on the commercial side, that we 4 are much more open to that. And you are hearing much 5 more of it now on the air than you have ever heard 6 before. At least, that is my impression. 7 380 JOHN STEVENSON: Okay. My concern, 8 it is a practical concern. These individual stations, 9 the situation that Co-op faced ten years ago, and that 10 is, is it enough to offer the person who has a 11 competing view or an opposing view, if it is not -- if 12 it is within the confines of law, is it reasonable to 13 offer them a place, offer them some time on the air 14 just to comment on this issue? And if they do not take 15 that time, is it -- are we then discharged from our 16 obligation to attempt to balance? 17 381 Because the situations tend to be 18 people coming in, producing their own program on a 19 community access basis, coming in, saying what they 20 want to say from their perspective, sharing their 21 experience and then it, you know, and broadcasting 22 that. 23 382 Now, they -- I am just wondering 24 where within our structures we are supposed to, you 25 know, how we are supposed to accommodate opposing StenoTran 103 1 views. Because I do not think the community access 2 show, the whole idea is access to the air waves. They 3 come in and say what they want to say and we want to 4 avoid abusive comment and so on, but it becomes a 5 problem when we offer someone air time and they do not 6 want to take it, we suddenly have a huge problem 7 because we would not feel very good about going to 8 those people who did the community access show and say: 9 By the way, you have to find someone who does not agree 10 with your position on this particular issue. 11 383 And the way that the staff, paid 12 staff is developed at campus radio, by and large they 13 are support staff for people to do individual shows. 14 They do training and so on, but they don't produce that 15 much programming themselves. 16 384 So suddenly, you know, it is a real 17 problem because how do we, you know, do we go out and 18 do a special program, how -- there are a lot of 19 resources that have to go into that. And it seems to 20 be based just on a perception in the mainstream of what 21 is contentious and what is controversial when, as 22 Caroline said, you know, she is trying to -- if you do 23 the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered program, 24 there is conflict within that community, there is 25 political conflict, different things, different StenoTran 104 1 approaches. There is enough within that community that 2 you are trying to provide balance in, even within that 3 community. So it is a practical concern that we have. 4 385 I mean, I know we have tried 5 talk-back machines and that sort of thing. I do not 6 think that addresses the balance issue. 7 386 RICHARD FRITH: So what I am hearing 8 you saying, just to make sure I have it right, you 9 know, in that document that came out with the Co-op 10 decision, if I can roll back my mind that far, it 11 suggests different mechanisms to deal with balance. It 12 seems to me some of them you would have no concern 13 with, the idea that someone would contact the station 14 and say: Hey, I really disagree, could I be 15 accommodated somehow? You seem to say: Yeah, that is 16 possible. 17 387 There is the idea of having access to 18 some program where the person does not have to become a 19 formal volunteer at the station but their view is 20 recorded. 21 388 The one you have trouble with is in 22 the absence of all these things going out and having to 23 produce a program. 24 389 JOHN STEVENSON: Yeah, that's right. 25 Because you have got a group of people who are used to StenoTran 105 1 using the air waves to share their own personal 2 experiences and their own perspectives. And it is not 3 a traditional journalistic role, but it is still a 4 valuable role within broadcasting where you are going 5 to facilitate personal and group expression. 6 390 And I think it becomes a problem for 7 these individuals because that is not the kind of role 8 that they are used to being in. They have set up a 9 debate program or something like that. Again, although 10 it is a practical concern, it is almost completely 11 hypothetical, because I do not think there have been 12 any balance-based complaints that I am aware of in the 13 last ten years. But that is still the concern that 14 this would be the kind of onus that we would place on 15 these staff people. 16 391 RICHARD FRITH: Okay. That is 17 helpful. Because, you know, if we got rid of the 18 balance requirement all together, one then comes up, I 19 am just saying completely for everyone, then one comes 20 up with, you know, a model of broadcasting that is 21 quite different for Canada. 22 392 For example, in the States you have 23 got some talk stations that with go Rush Limbaugh, 24 Ollie North, G. Gordon Liddy. And regardless of what 25 you think of the views, it is one sort of political StenoTran 106 1 point of view that is all the time. And that is sort 2 of quite different than the Canadian model. But I 3 think what I hear you saying is you would just like a 4 clearer way of dealing with it and perhaps some 5 leniency in that one thing about producing a balancing 6 program yourself because of the nature of your sector. 7 393 JOHN STEVENSON: I cannot speak for 8 all the stations at all. I would expect that there was 9 also a school of thought within campus broadcasting 10 that the sector provides a balance to political 11 opinions that are expressed in commercial radio so that 12 the objective would be to balance out those opinions. 13 394 My own personal opinion, I understand 14 the important of fairness and providing and providing 15 fairness to individual stations, but I think the most 16 important thing for the stations would be some 17 compromise in the area of having to produce programming 18 that is contrary, that they be obligated to present 19 programming if someone will come in and do it, because 20 that is what they do, they do community access. But 21 that there not be an onerous obligation to produce 22 programs when there is not any resource to do that and 23 there is not anyone who wants to come in an back up 24 their opinions that they have expressed in a complaint. 25 395 But Caroline might be able to speak StenoTran 107 1 to that as well. 2 396 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I was drawing concern 3 in terms of the balance in programming especially in 4 that most of our stations have been looking at our 5 definition that we are alternative and that we are the 6 voice for the voiceless. So if at our station we do a 7 special program on sexual abuse, I do not want to get a 8 complaint and have to put on the opinions of people who 9 have sexually abused. You know, that is a strong 10 example. 11 397 The LBGT show, talking unifiedly 12 against the mayor in Ottawa-Carleton once again 13 fighting to not put up the flag, you know, I do not 14 want to necessarily have to give a voice to the mayor 15 to talk to us about her homophobia issues. 16 398 We are here to, again, the community 17 access that John is talking about, but this is the only 18 place that you are going to hear these opinions, these 19 voices, these stories, this kind of education that we 20 just do not hear anywhere else. 21 399 So we do very much see ourselves as 22 an alternative medium, or a place to hear those 23 alternative voices and in our deposition that is what 24 we are there for. And I do not want to have to have, 25 you know, these shows that contradict each other that StenoTran 108 1 if we have the LBGT show, to have the "we are 2 homophobic show". What is that? 3 400 MARTINE VALLÉE: I think it is 4 something that just needs clarification -- now I think 5 Susan wants to try to sort of wrap things up -- is what 6 constitutes a matter of public concern and you talked 7 about a show on child abuse or something like that. I 8 do not think a show talking about child abuse would be 9 necessarily defined as a matter of public concern or 10 something that needs to be balanced. It is a show 11 about an issue, so that may be something that we could 12 talk about some more, you know, in some other forum or 13 something. 14 401 But I think Susan needs to sort of 15 wrap things up now. 16 402 THE MODERATOR: I think that you have 17 certainly identified some issues that are ongoing and 18 that will be part of other processes that we are 19 dealing with at the commission as well. And so the 20 dialogue will definitely continue on this one on 21 several fronts. 22 403 What I would like to do now is just 23 offer you the opportunity to sum up, if you wish to 24 take it, and then we can call it a day. But if there 25 are issues you think we have not addressed that we StenoTran 109 1 should make sure we are flagging when we continue with 2 our policy review or a final comment that you would 3 like to make on any of the issues that we have 4 discussed, please do so. 5 404 And perhaps, Susan, I could ask you 6 to start. 7 405 SUSAN ENGLEBERT: Well, I've enjoyed 8 it very much. I think it seems to me that particularly 9 around subjects like talent development and perhaps 10 training issues and things that it certainly got my 11 mind thinking a little bit here. 12 406 I would say that definitely I will go 13 back and talk to different people at the CBC and see 14 what we can do. As I said earlier, I think that 15 sometimes there are -- the channels just have not been 16 opened very much and perhaps this is a good way to 17 start them. 18 407 I don't know if you know of a show 19 called "Radio Escapade" that we do, but we have over 20 the last couple of years been inviting a lot of people 21 from campus radio in to work with us and, in fact, we 22 have a what we call a knapsack which is full of 23 technical gear and they actually use that gear to do 24 the program and we have been doing it all across the 25 country. StenoTran 110 1 408 So, you know, we may just try and 2 step that up a bit more and obviously we should be 3 sending you some of that information so that you know 4 about it because it has been going on with particularly 5 Halifax, CIUT and with the University of Toronto as 6 well. 7 409 So, you know, I think that we are 8 obviously doing things but I do not think it is getting 9 to you. And I think there is probably a lot more that 10 we can be doing. 11 410 THE MODERATOR: Thank you, Susan. 12 411 Jill? 13 412 JILL BIRCH: On behalf of the CAB, I 14 would also like to thank the CRTC for inviting us to 15 participate and hear the world that campus stations are 16 involved in. 17 413 I think that, as I mentioned, radio 18 is taking a real hard look at itself and trying to find 19 ways it can develop for the future, the ways that it 20 can build a star system, ways that it can encourage 21 communities across the country in this area of 22 diversity. 23 414 We feel that the alternative voice is 24 an important voice and certainly I think today there 25 are a number of issues that I have certainly been StenoTran 111 1 capturing and I will take this back to CAB and really 2 get the word out. And I encourage campus association 3 to develop a relationship with CAB and use us as a 4 vehicle to get your message out to private broadcasters 5 throughout the country. 6 415 Most of the broadcasters in radio, 7 commercial radio, are members and we have a number of 8 vehicles where we can get information out to them. So 9 in the instances of DAB, for example, we have 10 committees that are set up. We will be attending a 11 meeting, as a matter of fact, just after this one, 12 today, where you know that I will be raising this at 13 this committee meeting. 14 416 So for me it is helpful just to 15 understand that here are the main concerns I have and 16 then I can go back to the membership and consult with 17 them and understand better ways that I can work with 18 you and with your group. So I thank you for the 19 opportunity and we will do everything we can to support 20 you. Thanks. 21 417 CAROLINE CâTÉ: I would like to thank 22 everyone for their encouraging words. I will be 23 picking up business cards before I leave and, yeah, it 24 is great to hear supportive words. It is the first 25 time that I have heard them. But it is really great. StenoTran 112 1 And I will be trying to -- we will be trying to work 2 all together and seeing what we can do from here. 3 418 THE MODERATOR: Thank you. 4 419 John, did you want to add anything? 5 420 JOHN STEVENSON: No. 6 421 THE MODERATOR: Thank you very much. 7 I found it certainly very encouraging to listen to the 8 kinds of initiatives that are available, the opening of 9 the lines of communication that has happened today, the 10 fact that there are things going on out there to 11 increase the visibility for campus radio. 12 422 It is not going to make all the 13 issues that you have put on the table go away, but it 14 is certainly going to help address a number of them. 15 And I think you have found quite a number of willing 16 partners to help address some of the other issues that 17 are of general concern to radio on a broader level. 18 423 You know, the CBC talked about 19 partnering. Jill certainly offered use of 20 communications mechanisms to link to a wide range of 21 broadcasters. Hal's commitment to go to the Facteur 22 board with the issue about the distribution of lists 23 and product. 24 424 I think these are the kinds of things 25 that really do go a long way to understanding the StenoTran 113 1 common issues and how they can be addressed in a very 2 positive way for the broadcasting system as a whole. 3 425 So I would really like to thank all 4 of you for the contribution that you have made today 5 and I hope that that contribution will continue as we 6 go through the campus radio review process. Thank you 7 very much. 8 --- L'audience se termine à 1120/ 9 Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1120 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 StenoTran
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