ARCHIVED - Transcript
This page has been archived on the Web
Information identified as archived is provided for reference, research or recordkeeping purposes. It is not subject to the Government of Canada Web Standards and has not been altered or updated since it was archived. Please contact us to request a format other than those available.
Providing Content in Canada's Official Languages
Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.
In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded verbatim transcript and, as such, is transcribed in either of the official languages, depending on the language spoken by the participant at the hearing.
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES SUBJECT / SUJET: CANADIAN TELEVISION POLICY REVIEW / EXAMEN DES POLITIQUES DU CONSEIL RELATIVES À LA TÉLÉVISION CANADIENNE HELD AT: TENUE À: Conference Centre Centre des conférences Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais Place du Portage Place du Portage Phase IV Phase IV Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec) October 5, 1998 5 octobre 1998 Volume 10 tel: 613-521-0703 StenoTran fax: 613-521-7668 Transcripts Transcription Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience publique ainsi que la table des matières. Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le participant à l'audience publique. StenoTran Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des télécommunications canadiennes Transcript / Transcription Public Hearing / Audience publique Canadian Television Policy Review / Examen des politiques du Conseil relatives à la télévision canadienne BEFORE / DEVANT: Andrée Wylie Chairperson / Présidente Vice-Chairperson, Radio- television / Vice- présidente, Radiodiffusion Joan Pennefather Commissioner / Conseillère Andrew Cardozo Commissioner / Conseiller Martha Wilson Commissioner / Conseillère David McKendry Commissioner / Conseiller ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS: Jean-Pierre Blais Commission Counsel / Avocat du Conseil Margot Patterson Articling Student / Stagiaire Carole Bénard / Secretaries/Secrétaires Diane Santerre Nick Ketchum Hearing Manager / Gérant de l'audience HELD AT: TENUE À: Conference Centre Centre des conférences Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais Place du Portage Place du Portage Phase IV Phase IV Hull, Quebec Hull (Québec) October 5, 1998 5 octobre 1998 Volume 10 StenoTran TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES PAGE Presentation by / Présentation par: Canadian Labour Congress / Congrès du travail 2978 du Canada and the National Action Committee on the Status of Women / Comité canadien d'action sur le statut de la femme ACTRA, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television 3044 and Radio Artists (Performers Guild) Rogers Cablesystems Limited 3079 Cancom, Canadian Satellite Communications 3129 Inc. / Les Communications par satellite canadien inc. Chambre de commerce et d'industrie du Québec 3152 métropolitain Chinese Canadian National Council 3187 StenoTran 2978 1 Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec) 2 --- Upon resuming on Monday, October 5, 1998 3 at 1105 / L'audience reprend le lundi 4 5 octobre 1998 à 1105 5 14273 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning and 6 welcome back to our hearing, and welcome to those who 7 are here for the first time. 8 14274 Madam Secretary, would you please 9 invite the next participant. 10 14275 Mme SANTERRE: Merci, Madame la 11 Présidente. 12 14276 The first presentation this morning 13 will be a shared presentation by the Canadian Labour 14 Congress / Congrès du travail du Canada and the 15 National Action Committee on the Status of Women / 16 Comité canadien d'action sur le statut de la femme. 17 14277 You may start now. 18 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 19 14278 MS RICHE: Thank you very much. My 20 name is Nancy Riche. I am Executive Vice-President of 21 the Canadian Labour Congress. We are here with the 22 National Action Committee on the Status of Women, John 23 Grant-Cummings, and on my right is Tom O'Brien of the 24 Communications Department of the Canadian Labour 25 Congress. StenoTran 2979 1 14279 We didn't caucus first, so I don't 2 know who is starting. 3 14280 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: You can start. 4 14281 MS RICHE: I will start? Okay. 5 14282 I will read a brief summary of ours 6 and then turn it over to Joan. 7 14283 We are not like many of the experts 8 you have seen over your period of time of hearings. 9 However, the Canadian Labour Congress is Canada's 10 central labour body representing 58 national and 11 international unions and 2.3 million workers, and we 12 would add to that their families. 13 14284 Canadian workers have a strong 14 interest in preserving, protecting and promoting 15 Canadian culture through our cultural industries and 16 particularly efforts to increase Canadian content in 17 Canadian television. The CLC fully supports the goals 18 of the Broadcasting Act and welcomes the review of the 19 Canadian television system. We urge the Commission to 20 strengthen the Act and to enforce it effectively. 21 14285 Canadian content quotas were put in 22 place in 1959 in order to counteract the tendency of 23 private stations to import American programming. The 24 regulation succeeded in ensuring that private station 25 programming included some Canadian content. However, StenoTran 2980 1 quotas have also made one thing very clear: private 2 broadcasters will use whatever loopholes exist in the 3 regulations to maximize profits. In practice, this 4 means that private television networks will save their 5 prime time slots for American programming. 6 14286 Under the existing regulations prime 7 time programming must include 50 per cent Canadian 8 content. The major private stations meet this standard 9 but only because prime time is defined as 6:00 p.m. to 10 midnight. Once the news hours of 6:00 p.m. to 7:00 11 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. to 12:00 midnight are removed, the 12 private stations fail miserably. 13 14287 The accompanying charts -- and that's 14 in our brief -- show that in recent broadcasts Baton, 15 CTV, CanWest, Global and other private television 16 corporations aired very few shows of Canadian origin. 17 Since news segments will be produced in Canada in order 18 to cover Canadian events regardless of the definition 19 of prime time, including the news hours in the prime 20 time definition for the purpose of governing Canadian 21 content has no positive impact. It is clearly time to 22 redefine "prime time" in order to achieve the goals of 23 the Commission. 24 14288 The Commission's best opportunity to 25 ensure that the Canadian village, to appropriate a StenoTran 2981 1 phrase from Marshall McLuhan, isn't dominated by an 2 American chief lies in regulating the 7:00 to 3 11:00 p.m. slot. This time slot, when most Canadians 4 are watching, provides the best opportunity for 5 Canadians to share the stories, music, drama and 6 entertainment, the culture that binds us to our 7 communities. 8 14289 Canadians spend more than 20 hours 9 per week in front of a TV. It is the most popular 10 voluntary activity in Canada measured in hours. The 11 average Canadian 12-year-old spends as much time 12 watching television as going to school. Unbelievably, 13 given the statistics, English-speaking Canada is the 14 only industrialized country in the world where domestic 15 content television is not the primary source of viewing 16 supply for viewers of all ages. 17 14290 When we fail to place high quality 18 Canadian content before Canadian audiences, we are 19 squandering the opportunity to strengthen our culture 20 and celebrate our unique national character. We have a 21 right to create a culture which embraces the best of 22 who we are. As it is now regulated, private prime time 23 television broadcasting is diffusing U.S. culture into 24 Canada. 25 14291 As the regulations stand, Canadian StenoTran 2982 1 content is determined by a points system which gives 2 more points to shows which are created with Canadians 3 serving in senior capacities. This is good and 4 necessary, but insufficient. The points system should 5 be applied to the actual content of the programs. We 6 suggest that such a system could get points for 7 characters, issues and locations that are clearly 8 identified as Canadian. 9 14292 It is not that the shows can't find 10 audiences, the audiences can't find the show. There is 11 a point to be made here about promotion. Any competent 12 marketer will confirm the necessity of, one, making 13 your product readily available and, two, promoting it 14 aggressively in order to capture a market for it. A 15 recent study by the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting 16 found that Canadian television stations in Winnipeg 17 broadcast "The Simpsons" 27 times per week, "Due South" 18 twice and "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" once. With 19 broadcasting schedules like this, claiming that 20 Canadian shows can't find audiences is a 21 self-fulfilling prophecy. 22 14293 Given the Free Trade Agreements, to 23 which the current and the last federal governments have 24 made Canada party, it is more important than ever that 25 Canadians protect and promote their culture. Rules StenoTran 2983 1 that used to require corporations selling in Canadian 2 markets to employ Canadians are gone. While culture is 3 protected now, the U.S. keeps lodging complaints about 4 cultural protection. They recognize that the cultural 5 protections enjoyed by Canada and France encourage 6 other nations to restrict U.S. television, film and 7 music. They also recognize that their persistence over 8 the last 50 years has been the key to tearing down 9 barriers to trade. 10 14294 The government has made the 11 development of the information highway a top priority. 12 Developing the Canadian branch of the information 13 highway may help to ensure that Canadians keep up with 14 cutting edge communications technology but protecting 15 and growing Canadian culture, cultural talents, skills 16 and products is likely to help us survive as a nation. 17 14295 In sum, the CLC applauds the 18 Commission for its efforts to safeguard and promote 19 Canadian content in the television system, and we 20 encourage the Commission to do everything it can to 21 strengthen both the Broadcasting Act and its 22 enforcement of it. 23 14296 There are other points we might wish 24 to make, but in the interest of time, I am now turning 25 it over to Joan. StenoTran 2984 1 14297 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Madam 2 Riche. 3 14298 Madam Grant-Cummings. 4 14299 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: Thank you. 5 14300 NAC would like to start out by saying 6 that, while many private broadcasters may be well 7 resourced to participate in these hearings, which are 8 very, very important I think in terms of Canada's 9 political and social development, there are many groups 10 that could not be here, Media Watch for one, which has 11 been one of the best watchdogs that this country has 12 seen in terms of women's portrayal, and Media isn't 13 able to be here, and we are here sharing the time of 14 the CLC. 15 14301 We want to focus mainly on the 16 political and the social impact that our current 17 television programming is having on Canadian society. 18 Just to point to some of the things that make up Canada 19 that we feel are sadly lacking from what has been 20 portrayed as good Canadian television, I think we all 21 recognize that during the nineties the globe has seen 22 an unprecedented advance made in terms of 23 telecommunications mechanisms and technology. We 24 believe that this has directly impacted society's 25 concept of who we are as men and women, this has StenoTran 2985 1 impacted young people, how people of colour are seen, 2 how aboriginal people are seen. 3 14302 All of these portrayals within TV and 4 being able to beam things from a living room in Canada 5 to somewhere in Zambia or Tuvalu or Jamaica I think has 6 made our world shrink in one sense, but what it also 7 has done is to give a particular amount of power to 8 broadcasters to influence political and social 9 development within our countries and globally. I think 10 that is the point that NAC, the women's movement -- and 11 certainly the CLC has also made that point -- would 12 like to make this morning. 13 14303 What we see on our airwaves is not 14 disconnected from how we vote, the community values 15 that seem to rain, it is not disconnected from our 16 trading agreements or our economic system, and we 17 believe that one of the impacts of the globalization of 18 the economy has been to actually shrink the diversity 19 of how culture is viewed and the diversity of political 20 opinions and analysis that we see on our airwaves. 21 14304 Today, as far as women are 22 concerned -- and NAC has 700 member groups across 23 Canada in all the provinces and territories, 24 representing almost 3 million women. What we hear from 25 women wherever we go is the fact that we don't see our StenoTran 2986 1 values, our political views and the kind of development 2 that we expect Canada to triumph or to champion 3 reflected in Canadian television. It is missing to a 4 great degree still in the public broadcaster, the CBC, 5 and in terms of private broadcasters we are lucky if 6 feminist values, for example, or multicultural values 7 are ever at all mimicked in any of the private 8 broadcasters. 9 14305 As far as we are concerned, Canada is 10 a multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic and 11 multilingual country, but I think if a sister or a 12 brother from another planet came here, they would be 13 hard pressed to find that multiculturalism or 14 multi-ethnicity in this country. What they would see 15 on our Canadian television is largely white male 16 leadership, mainly business, mainly English, some 17 French speaking. In terms of women they would see 18 largely white women, mainly blond, and they would see a 19 preponderance or a dominance of people of colour or 20 aboriginal peoples depicted as those who engage in 21 criminal activity. 22 14306 In terms of how women are portrayed 23 in the media, although Canada has advanced somewhat, 24 they would also see an acceptance of violence against 25 women as commonplace. As the United Nations has StenoTran 2987 1 pointed out to Canada, in the last year we have 2 actually seen an increase in the level of violence in 3 this country against women. So, while we had some 4 success in the eighties and early nineties, we are 5 actually regressing in that step. 6 14307 I think one of the things that they 7 would also see is that there is a great debate going on 8 right now as to what constitutes hate and what is 9 freedom of speech. As far as women in this country are 10 concerned, it is hate if it doesn't advance equality, 11 it is hate if it does not find progressive solutions 12 speaking to issues such as racism, homophobia, ableism, 13 ageism and so on. 14 14308 I think that our brother or sister 15 from another planet would be hard pressed to find 16 people with disabilities depicted in any real way in 17 Canadian television and would assume that none existed 18 in society. 19 14309 Canadian content can be very, very 20 exciting, but for it to be exciting to us it has to 21 reflect who we are and all of our values, and that is 22 sadly missing from our Canadian television. It is 23 there in a better degree within the CBC, but in private 24 broadcasters, if our culture isn't globalization of the 25 economy, embracing that business sense or economic StenoTran 2988 1 system, then obviously we are not Canadian because that 2 is what we see largely. 3 1115 4 14310 Women are very discerning and I think 5 there are two events in this country that told women, 6 certainly women inside NAC and women inside the CLC 7 about the lack of regard with regard equality-seeking 8 women are treated in this country. In 1996, Canada had 9 the largest mobilization of women in this country 10 organized by NAC and the CLC, the women's march against 11 poverty. 12 14311 And despite the efforts of expert 13 female journalists, broadcasters and political 14 analysts, not even the CBC tracked march across the 15 country. And that said a lot to women across this 16 country. 17 14312 Last year in 1997, women organized an 18 all parties federal debate to show our interest in who 19 governs this country -- a very, very serious issue 20 going into the third millennium. 21 14313 Not even the CBC transmitted that 22 debate in its entirely, never mind any other station. 23 14314 As community television shrinks 24 further more and more within Canadian television, the 25 spaces for those of us who are largely marginalized in StenoTran 2989 1 this country keep on shrinking with it. 2 14315 When you talk to people of colour and 3 aboriginal people, women, especially feminist women, 4 people with disabilities, and so on who are experts and 5 political savantes, the thinking is the same. When are 6 we seen as the experts? In all the Canadian talk 7 shows, the political commentaries, who is used as an 8 expert? It's largely a white male who is mainly 9 English speaking. And that is not the extent of the 10 multicultural nature of this country or even represents 11 from a gender perspective the kind of skills 12 development and ability of the rest of us to 13 conceptualize what is happening politically, 14 economically, and socially in this country. 15 14316 So we want to see a multicultural 16 version of expertise and political savantes and 17 legitimate opinions because we clearly feel that what 18 is transmitted on our TV screen informs public opinion. 19 It informs how people vote. It informs what we accept 20 as equality in this country. It informs that we accept 21 as good government. And, therefore, it's very, very 22 important and it is very instructive, in particular to 23 young people. And that is our major concern that what 24 we see does not reflect that width and depth of what is 25 Canadianness in terms of how we think politically, StenoTran 2990 1 economically and socially. 2 14317 I want to end by just making two 3 references to two stations in particular. We have 4 CFMT, which is called multicultural television, which I 5 guess most of us who belong to this multicultural 6 community assume means those of us who are not English 7 or French speaking Europeans. 8 14318 But when you look at multicultural 9 television, one would think that the only thing that 10 Canada as a multicultural society is interested in is 11 junk food programming. We are given "Jerry Springer," 12 for example, to swallow as multicultural television 13 programming. 14 14319 Within our multicultural community, 15 there are people who are very, very skilled and aware 16 of geo-politics. We don't see that kind of programming 17 in multicultural television as if to say this wide 18 group of people have no concept of politics , social 19 development, or economic development. 20 14320 I think that the fact that there 21 isn't right now an aboriginal Canadian television 22 station is also very, very indicative of the alienation 23 of a whole group of people who have a particular way of 24 living, particular way of development that is being 25 shoved more and more to the margins. I know there's an StenoTran 2991 1 aboriginal group that is putting forward a proposal for 2 license and NAC fully supports that. We fully support 3 community television. We fully support the increase in 4 Canadian content, and we also fully support the CBC in 5 terms of it being a public broadcaster, but it has to 6 to actually live that nature of being a true public 7 broadcaster. 8 14321 Thank you very much. 9 14322 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Madam 10 Grant-Cummings. Does that complete your presentation? 11 14323 MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS: Yes, it does. 12 14324 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 13 McKendry, please. 14 14325 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Good Morning. 15 Ms. Grant-Cummings, I got the impression from your 16 opening comments that you were required to appear with 17 the Canadian Labour Congress for financial reasons. 18 Did I get that right? 19 14326 MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS: In terms of 20 scheduling, we had to appear today. This was impacted, 21 yes, by our financial status in terms of how we were 22 able to appear. I think we were asked to appear later 23 on this week but that would have created more financial 24 issues for us. 25 14327 I think on that point what we want to StenoTran 2992 1 say is that the CRTC and other commissions like this 2 needs to understand that given the lack of resources, 3 and in particular financial resources that many 4 community groups have, and the community groups across 5 this country operate and who have a great stake in what 6 you are doing, they don't have the luxury to pick up 7 and leave on their resource offices to come and make 8 their presentations. And one can get the impression 9 that these communities do not care when, in fact, they 10 greatly care because they are impacted on how they are 11 portrayed in TV on a daily basis. 12 14328 The CRTC probably needs to look at 13 some of the systems that other commissions use to 14 facilitate that kind of participation by offering 15 subsidies, for example. 16 14329 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, 17 Commissioner McKendry, Ms. Grant-Cummings, you can have 18 all the time you want to answer our questions and we 19 will take all the time you would have taken to ask 20 them, whether you appear today or another day. The 21 Commission does try to accommodate, and I thought your 22 appearance this morning was an accommodation. 23 14330 Go ahead, Commissioner McKendry. 24 14331 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Yes, I just 25 want to emphasize that point. Take as much time as you StenoTran 2993 1 need, and I was also under the impression that we had 2 attempted to accommodate you by having the joint 3 appearance. But, as Commissioner Wylie has pointed 4 out, please feel free to take as much time as you need 5 and we certainly aren't going to restrict our 6 questioning because of your joint appearance. We don't 7 pool your times together and divide by two. 8 14332 One of the things that intrigued me, 9 Ms. Grant-Cummings, about your comments was that when 10 many people in this proceeding appear before us, they 11 focus on the cultural aspect of television broadcasting 12 and its importance to the country. Now I take it that 13 you see television as a significant force for political 14 and social development, and I think you're one of the 15 few parties that's appeared before us until now that's 16 taken that perspective. Can you just elaborate on that 17 point and relate it to the cultural focus that many 18 others have taken? 19 14333 MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS: I think one of 20 the things, when we talk about culture, we don't talk 21 about, for example, the culture of equality that exists 22 in this country. The role that labour plays, that the 23 women's movement plays, that ethno-specific groups 24 play, et cetera. If you're going to have six talk 25 shows per week, debate major political issues that come StenoTran 2994 1 out of Queen's Park in Ontario or the House of 2 Parliament in Ottawa, in terms of who has the privilege 3 to debate those issues or who television stations see 4 as the credible experts, that shapes who Canadians see 5 as credible and that is not largely people in labour. 6 It's not largely feminist organizations. It's not 7 largely people of colour or aboriginal people. And 8 this kind of perpetration of a very narrow definition 9 of who is the expert, who can analyze, who is aware of 10 geo-politics, I think has a major, major impact on our 11 communities. It also, I know certainly within the 12 women's movement, has actually been translated into 13 what we call clearly an anti-feminist stance within our 14 media. 15 14334 When we talk about issues like girl 16 power and women power, that is superficial stuff. It 17 doesn't get at the fact that in terms of women's 18 progression, for example, in Canada, there are many, 19 many gains that are eroded because we are not given 20 that space on TV to even enunciate that kind of 21 politics. 22 14335 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: In the 23 proceeding that we currently have underway, what would 24 you like to see us do in our decision-making with 25 respect to the issues that you have raised? What could StenoTran 2995 1 we do to move the agenda forward, from your 2 perspective? 3 14336 MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS: One of the 4 recommendations that we make in our brief is that you 5 do a real updating of your report that I think you came 6 out with in December, 1990 to specifically look at the 7 political and social impact that Canadian television 8 has on different communities. And I think there are 9 many groups out there with very, very clear mechanisms 10 or recommendations of how they can see that change. 11 14337 The CRTC's mandate involves stations 12 actually promoting multiculturalism in programming and 13 that doesn't mean having now and then food colouring on 14 your station. It means in terms of who influences the 15 decision-making within the organization and who has the 16 right or who influences those decisions that involves 17 who is it that is the face of the station in things 18 like political discussions, economic analysis, and 19 impact on different groups of people. It has to be a 20 mix of us. You have to have different voices. The 21 voice of multinationals can't govern every space on TV. 22 And that is what it seems like right now. And I think 23 for many, many people who are alienated from our 24 political and economic system, that sense of 25 hopelessness or helplessness that many Canadians are StenoTran 2996 1 feeling and why we have such low voter turnout, is 2 impacted by them seeing only these individuals. 3 14338 So stations choose. It's not by 4 default. Stations choose who is there and who makes 5 these decisions. 6 14339 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would just like 7 to add to that. In our brief, we talk about that 8 person from the other planet believing that Canada 9 would be a nation of stockbrokers because of the 10 massive increase of business shows. And this season, 11 or last season, it grew by leaps and bounds. 12 14340 Being a bit of a junky for the news 13 channels, I spend most of my time screaming at the TV 14 because the other side is not heard. 15 14341 There used to be a workers program on 16 Newsworld. What was it called? We paid for it. We 17 raised the money among out affiliates and then had a 18 production company put it together and then sell it to 19 Newsworld. And that was the only show that was on and 20 that was on for about one season. "Working TV" or 21 whatever we called it. The commercials or the 22 advertisements were bought by the steelworkers, the 23 autoworkers and it was the only way that we could get 24 any kind of coverage for the ordinary working Canadian. 25 14342 So I would add to what Joan says that StenoTran 2997 1 we have also seen the shift to the right, the political 2 right. And, again, if that's all you see, that's all 3 you know, that globalization is good, that free trade 4 is good. 5 14343 Now I'm not saying it's total. 6 There's some balance, on occasion, and I often am one 7 of the people providing the balance, but it's very, 8 very rare. 9 14344 On the women's, it's interesting that 10 when the issue is pay equity, I guess they work really 11 hard to get women on TV. 12 14345 So that brings up something else. 13 That if it's purely seen as women's issues, they would 14 look for women to do it. If it's a general business 15 program or a program about globalization, generally 16 speaking, or the Asian crisis, we rarely see women 17 doing it. Or would we see men doing pay equity. Which 18 again sets up a dynamic that that's the one group that 19 appears. It sort of boxes groups into certain issues. 20 1130 21 14346 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: I was 22 interested in that and that point you made. You made 23 it in your written brief at page 9. One of the 24 questions that came to my mind when I read that part of 25 your brief was to what extent is it appropriate for the StenoTran 2998 1 Commission or for the government I suppose in general 2 to become involved in prescribing the content of news. 3 How much should be devoted to this and how much should 4 be devoted to that. Is that what you are looking to us 5 for? 6 14347 MS RICHE: Well, it is not news. It 7 is the analysis where you see this kind of stuff. It 8 is not the news program. If in fact -- I mean I could 9 complain about a lot of that too and where the emphasis 10 is put. It is the analysis of the events. 11 14348 There has never been, as long as I 12 have been around this city, about 15 years, on budget 13 day with the exception of one federal budget, where 14 anybody on the panel was anybody but economists. I 15 won't go so far as to say it was only men. There may 16 have been one or two women, but it has only been either 17 academic economists or economists attached to a 18 particular business or business organization. Only 19 once do I remember that being any different. 20 14349 So, it is not the news; it's the 21 analysis. I do understand your question and the 22 delicacy and the fine line, but I think in terms of the 23 Commission there is certainly a way to talk about the 24 balance of the analysis, that all parts of the country, 25 all segments, all sectors, all colours should be StenoTran 2999 1 represented in the analysis. 2 14350 I think Joan's point and I am afraid 3 this is -- I mean this is the kind of work that we are 4 trying to do in the CLC -- first of all, acknowledge 5 that we do live in a terribly racist country. We like 6 to pretend we don't. 7 14351 One of the ways of combatting that is 8 that all sectors would be speaking to the analysis of 9 the main stories, that you have the views and the 10 opinions of all sides and sectors. This is not to say 11 that those not represented now would be on my side. I 12 would like to think they were, but they might not be. 13 They might be presenting the same position, but we do 14 need a balance. 15 14352 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So it isn't 16 necessarily less business news, but more balance that 17 you are seeking in the way these issues are presented 18 to the public? 19 14353 MS RICHE: To say it's business news, 20 it's not business news that we are seeing. It is 21 business analysis. I mean if there is a strike, a big 22 strike, labour will be the lead story, there is no 23 doubt about it. And if there is a big business merger 24 that will be the lead story, no doubt about it. But 25 it's the analysis shows that we have seen since we got StenoTran 3000 1 these specialty channels, particularly Newsworld. 2 Newsworld I suspect, and I haven't done the study, has 3 increased its coverage of business analysis I would say 4 almost by 50 per cent in the last year or so. 5 14354 I mean I watched the new programming 6 that came out. It used to be a few minutes every hour, 7 from five o'clock until seven in the morning. Now it 8 is like the business program. The business person on 9 Newsworld in the morning show is now almost the 10 co-anchor. It was someone who used to come in. There 11 is a change. 12 14355 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Mr. O'Brien, 13 did you want to answer? 14 14356 MR. O'BRIEN: Yes. One last thing 15 and that is the Commission does make decisions about 16 what communities are represented on broadcast time, 17 cablecast time. You may be seeing applications from 18 producers who would like to have solely a business 19 channel or more business on air. 20 14357 Clearly, I mean if you look at 21 Newsworld, if you look at CTV, one where the stock 22 prices are up every 10 minutes, it would be great if 23 the Commission would actually do a study on that. It 24 is clear that that community is extremely well served 25 now and that any future application for expanding StenoTran 3001 1 businesses I think based on the amount of time business 2 news is on air I think should be rejected by the 3 Commission. 4 14358 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Let me come 5 back to -- sorry, Ms Grant-Cummings, did you want to 6 add something? 7 14359 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: Yes. What I 8 wanted to say is that I think the Commission needs to 9 look at this from the perspective of how civil society 10 is represented in our media and how our media 11 facilitates participation of civil society because 12 right now I think the media speaks to a particular 13 group of Canadians. It doesn't speak to most of us. 14 14360 I think the sideline enough of NGOs, 15 of non-governmental organizations even having space to 16 participate in that more integrated analysis that 17 Canadian television needs to have I think is a decision 18 that has been made by many networks and it is not one 19 by default. It is an indicator of the values of many 20 private broadcasters and included in even the CBC in 21 terms of how programming is decided and who 22 participates in the analysis. 23 14361 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: One of the 24 trends we have seen emerging in broadcasting in recent 25 years is the emergence of specialty television StenoTran 3002 1 channels. There is a specialty channel that focuses on 2 women's issues and there are other specialty channels 3 that focus on particular segments of society as well. 4 Is there a risk or a danger for the Commission and 5 others in that if one focuses on the specialty channel 6 that the conventional over-the-air broadcasters, in 7 terms of representing the diversity of the country and 8 so on, that we tend to think we are taking care of the 9 problem by having a specialty channel and we don't 10 really need to worry about the conventional 11 broadcasters? 12 14362 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: You absolutely 13 have to worry about the conventional. I think it has 14 to be a simultaneous process. For example, the Women's 15 Television Network isn't seen by many women as women's 16 TV, like men may see the fishing channel as men's TV or 17 TSN as men's TV. WTN isn't accepted by many women as 18 women's television. 19 14363 It is marketed to women, but it uses 20 the same business values to guide it in a lot of its 21 programming. I think it has to be integrated. I think 22 we want to see private broadcasters. We want to see 23 Global, CTV integrate the analysis of most of us in 24 this country, not just a few of us and I think we will 25 always need specialty channels because there are going StenoTran 3003 1 to be some issues that have to be dealt with on their 2 own, but it should not preclude them from dealing with 3 the integrated analysis. 4 14364 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So we and 5 others shouldn't sit back and say, "Well, we have taken 6 care of the problem. We have specialty channels." 7 14365 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: No way. 8 14366 MS RICHE: It is interesting to note 9 that in giving the licence to WTN I would imagine much 10 of the argument was that there wasn't enough women's 11 television, so the Commission obviously has accepted 12 the arguments of Joan already this morning back when 13 WTN was licensed, even if it doesn't cover what it is 14 supposed to. 15 14367 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Mr. O'Brien 16 and Ms Riche, let me ask you a couple of questions 17 about your written submission. My first question is on 18 page 7 of your written submission. Let me read a 19 couple of sentences and I will ask you about that. It 20 is the second paragraph, quote: 21 "To those who scream that there 22 are no audiences for shows about 23 Canadians we answer that there 24 are plenty of engaging and 25 compelling Canadian stories and StenoTran 3004 1 that Canadians will tune in when 2 these stories are told well. We 3 assert that those who claim 4 otherwise are simply lazy and 5 uncreative." 6 14368 When I read that I think there would 7 be a counter argument that could be put to you and I 8 would like to get your reaction, that in fact perhaps 9 it is regulation that makes people lazy and uncreative 10 because it creates an umbrella for them and some people 11 have argued that to us. I take it that's not your view 12 and I am wondering if you can suggest to us how we 13 would overcome the lazy and uncreative problem in a 14 regulated environment? 15 1140 16 14369 MS RICHE: One was in changing the 17 prime time -- the recommendation that we made 18 previously -- that if you took out the news that there 19 would be some time there to do it. 20 14370 We're not here to unregulate or 21 deregulate the industry, as I'm sure you know, which 22 was clearly a part of your question. In fact, because 23 I think we have gone so far in terms of, you know, the 24 number of channels and the number of US TV available to 25 us, that the regulation becomes even more important to StenoTran 3005 1 bring us back to some sort of balance of Canadian 2 content, and that will require some assistance, some 3 financial assistance. 4 14371 The thing that we go on to say, here, 5 is how exciting it has been, the few people in Canada 6 who have been able to manage to pull the funding 7 together to be able to produce in Canada, by Canadians, 8 for Canadians, and about Canada, and how successful 9 it's been. 10 14372 What we think we've not gone near to 11 tap is the resources that are available. There are 12 many groups who could do "This Hour Has 22 Minutes." 13 These guys lucked out. Once they were able to get 14 there, then the rest of the Canadians saw them. I 15 mean, I'm from Newfoundland, so I know there's at least 16 150 more shows like "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" any 17 given day. So there's incredible stuff available, but 18 if you can't get in -- you know, when we think about 19 it -- no choices. But the frustration is that, had we 20 been able to get in before, we may not be in this 21 situation now. 22 14373 And I know there are those who will 23 criticise, you know, Canada Council grants and even 24 entertainers who, the first thing they want to say is 25 gripe that they never got a grant, but in fact, you StenoTran 3006 1 know, "This Hour Has 22 Minutes," those folks got a lot 2 of grants, back when they were "Codco." They were able 3 to develop by Canada Council. 4 14374 The Great Eastern -- I don't know if 5 you've ever heard that show on CBC Radio that comes out 6 of Newfoundland. My nephew is on that. That's why I 7 mention that, you see. We may even down the road talk 8 about lowering the regulation, but I don't think we can 9 until we get to a certain level, particularly now, with 10 all the channels. The choice is there for Canadians. 11 But if we, you know, maybe, given the opportunity, and 12 that can only happen, I suspect, with regulation. Tom. 13 14375 MR. O'BRIEN: Brian Mulroney once 14 characterised Canada being next to the United States as 15 sleeping with an elephant. Well, that elephant 16 produces a lot of shows, and it promotes the heck out 17 of those shows. And so it's more profitable for 18 private broadcasters to simply licence those shows, 19 because there's a spillover promotion effect in Canada. 20 Any night, we can all go home to the television, turn 21 on cable, and we can see "ER" being promoted -- 22 tremendously being promoted. That costs money, and 23 Canadian -- private broadcasters don't have to do that 24 to the extent that they would if it was an American 25 show that they could licence, because the Americans are StenoTran 3007 1 already doing it, spilling across our border. 2 14376 So, it's more expensive to promote 3 Canadian shows, and you know, this is all about 4 profitability. Private stations, private broadcasters 5 buy and licence American programs and broadcast them 6 because they're more profitable. They don't have to 7 promote them. 8 14377 So if we were to go to an unregulated 9 situation, we'd see, I suspect, less and less Canadian 10 content. I mean, we can see that now. As point of our 11 submission, we have charts that show, in a given recent 12 period, how little Canadian content programming in 13 prime time the private broadcasters actually did, once 14 you eliminate news broadcasts. So the last thing we 15 would want would be to move away from the regulated 16 market that has given us Canadian content. 17 14378 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you, 18 Ms. Riche and Mr. O'Brien. I wanted to ask you about 19 your comments on local programming, and your references 20 to local programming. Now, I expect Ms. Grant-Cummings 21 may have thought about local programming as well, in 22 terms of the issues that she's interested in, so I 23 invite her to comment as well. 24 14379 And I was wondering if you could 25 expand for me on the solutions that you suggest, with StenoTran 3008 1 respect of solving the problem of declining local 2 programming that you've referred to on page eight. 3 What do you think the solutions are to that problem? 4 14380 MR. O'BRIEN: Well, I mean, I realise 5 that some licences were granted, I believe, 20 years 6 ago that didn't require, for instance, in Ontario, a 7 certain station to have local broadcasting facilities, 8 which eliminated their ability to do local programming. 9 I guess my understanding is that that requirement was 10 not foisted onto them at the time of their licensing. 11 So that made the playing field, I understand, a little 12 bit uneven. 13 14381 So we simply urge that local content 14 requirements be placed on the shoulders of all 15 broadcasters -- private broad- and cable-casters 16 equally -- and that if some station can show that 17 somehow this creates an unequal burden on them, then 18 maybe we should find the funding so that, in fact, they 19 can execute local programming requirements. 20 14382 What you can see locally, is we look 21 at Ottawa's local station, CJOH, carried 30 hours of 22 local programming. CBC and CHRO boasted many local 23 shows as well, and this was back in the early 90s. In 24 the upcoming season, only two non-new shows made for 25 local audiences by a local broadcaster will be aired. StenoTran 3009 1 So I would like to get that in the record. You can see 2 it's a problem. 3 14383 So again, we'd like to see local 4 programming be the requirement nation-wide, and that if 5 that requirement is enforced equally around the 6 country, we think ultimately it won't provide a 7 competitive disadvantage to stations, finally. 8 14384 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Let me just 9 ask Ms. Grant-Cummings a more specific question. You 10 represent a number or NAC represents a number of 11 organisations, women's organisations around the 12 country. Have you had any feedback from them about 13 their ability to access stations in local communities 14 to discuss the issues you're interested in in the 15 context of those particular communities? 16 14385 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: Overwhelmingly, 17 there's a lack of access, as far as women's groups are 18 concerned, unless there's some issue that stations 19 think, you know, hey, a cross-sector of people will 20 beam into, they're not allowed air time. Or unless 21 they demonstrate in front of a station, or threaten 22 boycott, which is ridiculous, because there's no way we 23 should have to do that. Their views are not 24 incorporated into local or national programming. You 25 have to fight to get that space, and that is the StenoTran 3010 1 overwhelming feedback that we're getting from women, 2 whether they're in the Yukon, whether they're in 3 Beechville, Nova Scotia, or in Toronto, Ontario. 4 That's the feedback. 5 14386 MR. O'BRIEN: Can I say one more 6 thing about this? One of our concerns is that when 7 stations are required to produce local programming, it 8 gives an opportunity for local cultural talent to 9 exercise their skills. It's the entry point for people 10 who will someday become national broadcasters, 11 nationally-seen actors, people with national-level 12 technical skills. Local programming is the entry point 13 for them to learn those skills and to practise those 14 skills before they're ready for, you know, national 15 showcasing. So, you know, we worry that without local 16 content requirements, that this entry point will be 17 gone. 18 14387 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Ms. 19 Grant-Cummings, to what extent has your organisation 20 directly approached broadcasters to try and have a 21 dialogue with broadcasters about the issues you're 22 concerned, and if you have, how responsive have the 23 broadcasters been in terms of dealing with those issues 24 from the perspective of having a dialogue with them? 25 14388 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: Well, I think one StenoTran 3011 1 of the telling comments from broadcasters that we have 2 interacted with is if there's too much of a presence on 3 TV, people are going to think we support NAC. If we 4 have a feminist broadcaster, or a person of colour 5 cover a particular issue that is of importance to 6 people of colour, people are going to see this as 7 biased reporting, and our question is always, well, is 8 it only white males in broadcasting who can present 9 unbiased professional reporting? You know, but that 10 has been the type of feedback that we get whenever we 11 have tried to interact with broadcasters on this issue 12 in terms of, you know, having our views heard. Whether 13 it's the budget, as Nancy said, whether it's pay 14 equity, whether it's trade agreements that women are 15 very, very concerned about, the discussion of the 16 MAI -- all of these key issues, you know, that's just 17 feminist trash. It's outdated. We don't want to hear 18 it. 19 14389 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Let me ask 20 Ms. Riche and Mr. O'Brien a question. You referred 21 earlier to funding, in terms of solving the local 22 production problem and so on, and there's a reference 23 on page ten, where you state, and I quote again: "This 24 means providing more government funding for Canadian 25 productions." StenoTran 3012 1 14390 Are your members willing to provide 2 this funding? Because in the end, it's people who work 3 that ultimately provide the funding, either through 4 their tax bill or through subscription payments to 5 television and so on. So I take it, here, you're 6 acknowledging there's a price, and I assume your 7 members are willing to pay the price. 8 1150 9 14391 MS RICHE: Well, it is not as simple 10 as that. Government makes choices over how they spend 11 the money they already have. So we are not saying here 12 you must raise income tax in order to fund local 13 programming, we are saying that the government makes 14 choices. It made choices when it demanded the cuts to 15 CBC. It made those choices. It did not say to the 16 workers of Canada, "We will give you back a penny per 17 hour" or something "and we will cut the CBC." 18 14392 I think you know quite well it 19 doesn't work as straightforward as that, as you would 20 ask. 21 14393 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: So you are 22 suggesting that there would be cutbacks somewhere else 23 to fund these types of initiatives? Is that what I 24 should take from that? 25 14394 MS RICHE: No, it depends on when the StenoTran 3013 1 government sits down to carve out their money. I don't 2 know. That's how the Liberals/Conservatives work; they 3 cut back on social programs to allow to do other 4 things. There may have been another choice. There may 5 have been a choice, heaven forbid, to allow the debt to 6 go up, to allow the deficit to stay, to concentrate on 7 growth in the economy as opposed to that. It is not 8 that cut and dry. 9 14395 If in fact Canadians want to see more 10 Canadian content, if they want more of this in local 11 programming, if they would like to see more CBC -- 12 because I think everybody sitting around the room my 13 age remembers all the local content we used to have on 14 particularly our CBC and our private stations. Where I 15 grew up the six o'clock news was generally an hour, an 16 hour and a half, with local interviews. I remember 17 clearly these were important events in our lives; in 18 St. John's, Don Jamieson, in fact, the former Cabinet 19 minister, started out that way. So the choices can be 20 made. 21 14396 If we want to put it down to cut and 22 dry, you pay more here or you get cut back there, then 23 we have a problem. We have a serious problem, which of 24 course has been the conservative argument in this 25 country for the past decade. Or we can say, Canadians StenoTran 3014 1 want this, they are paying income tax, and let's decide 2 the choices that we make. 3 14397 I can't answer your question because, 4 first of all -- I will try to be calm -- it is a bit of 5 a set-up and it tells me more about your politics than 6 mine. 7 14398 MR. O'BRIEN: Commissioner, as Nancy 8 just said, we don't have a specific proposal, but the 9 Commission orders in other areas of its work. You 10 order, for instance, using telephone revenues generally 11 to subsidize rural telephone usage because of the 12 tremendous capital costs involved in bringing telephone 13 service trough rural areas, and we support that; I 14 think all of Canada supports that. 15 14399 So the Commission, it is not just 16 government funds as a general term. The Commission can 17 order if it deems that local content, more Canadian 18 content is a goal worth supporting. The Commission can 19 find revenues, we believe, in other areas -- and not 20 just the Commission. 21 14400 When John Dillinger was asked why he 22 robbed banks, he said, "That's where the money is" -- 23 and, speaking about banks, you would never find us 24 having a problem if the Commission recommended to the 25 Government of Canada that -- banks have had four years StenoTran 3015 1 of consecutive record profit levels. If you 2 recommended taxing the banks in order to support higher 3 Canadian content or more local programming, at the 4 Canadian Labour Congress we certainly wouldn't have a 5 problem with that. 6 14401 MS RICHE: And you would support 7 that. 8 14402 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: Absolutely. 9 14403 I think there is one point that I 10 also wanted to make but forgot. In terms of the 11 complaints process that is in place so that individuals 12 can make complaints around program content or lack 13 thereof, I think we have to come up with a better 14 strategy than what is there right now. I don't know 15 how the Commission can do this in terms of, of course, 16 resource -- access to resources is going to be a major, 17 major issue, but one of the reasons why we are aware of 18 the fact that this is a major issue for women across 19 the country is because weekly we get calls. As soon as 20 women see something on TV that really offends them in a 21 very, very clear way -- the whole issue of telling 22 them, "Write a letter to the station and cc to the 23 CRTC", that process is very limiting. 24 14404 When we as an organization speak to 25 stations, it becomes -- "You are just one voice who has StenoTran 3016 1 said this." The recognition that this organization 2 represents many women isn't something that is validated 3 at all by these broadcasters; yet, still, we may be the 4 route to this being changed. 5 14405 So I think broadcasters use that 6 very, very flippantly to brush off complaints, and 7 that's where the whole issue of picketing a station; 8 then women have to picket a station for the station 9 manager to acknowledge that there was a complaint in 10 the first place. 11 14406 So I think one of the things that the 12 CRTC has to put its hands around is how do we 13 facilitate a better complaint system? I think the 14 length and depth of a lot of the complaints that are 15 coming in can actually inform how licensing is done or 16 renewed in the future. 17 14407 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you. 18 14408 Let me end my questions by asking 19 Ms Grant-Cummings about children's programming. Is 20 there any brighter picture there from your perspective 21 in terms of the issues you are interested in with 22 respect to children's programming than there is with 23 the other types of programming? 24 14409 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: I think actually 25 one of our successes is YTV. I mean, there is always StenoTran 3017 1 room for improvement, but I think, just in terms of my 2 own nine-year-old and in terms of the feedback from 3 women and what it is that they preferably will have 4 their children see, how YTV is set up in terms of the 5 diversity of actors that are represented there, in 6 terms of the content of the programming, that is one of 7 the stations that I think women have talked about in a 8 positive light. 9 14410 I think it is good to see in terms of 10 who is viewing -- the viewership has increased at YTV, 11 and I think it is because it has crossed many sectors 12 in how it depicts Canadian children. 13 14411 COMMISSIONER McKENDRY: Thank you 14 very much for answering my questions. 15 14412 Those are my questions, Madam Chair. 16 14413 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 17 Cardozo. 18 14414 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, 19 Madam Chair. 20 14415 First, an interesting comment on YTV, 21 Ms Grant-Cummings. We had Shaw here last week and we 22 asked them how they go about reflecting diversity, and 23 the program director, Peter Moss I believe is his name, 24 said that in fact when they do select their casts for 25 the various programs they do keep an eye on the racial StenoTran 3018 1 composition of the actors that they have. That's one 2 of the ways they make sure that they have diversity. 3 So it is an issue that they think about. I think it is 4 an example that, when a producer/broadcaster puts their 5 mind to anything, they can do it. 6 14416 A few questions. 7 14417 In terms of labour news, Ms Riche, 8 you mentioned the program there was on Newsworld, and I 9 believe somebody else mentioned it; it was possibly the 10 Council of Canadians a week or two ago. I wonder if, 11 at a later point, you can give us some more information 12 on the specific name of the program, how long it 13 lasted, and the kinds of advertising that you did put 14 in or the unions put in if that's easily available, 15 because we would be interested to have that, and also 16 why it ended if you have any letters or any background 17 about why Newsworld ended it. 18 14418 Certainly, the suggestion of 19 increased business news on Newsworld has been raised as 20 not being balanced by other news, and they have -- I 21 guess they call it "NBN", "Newsworld Business News", 22 which is a major section in the evenings. 23 14419 In terms of having a variety of 24 viewpoints on television, what are your feelings about 25 programs like "Face Off" and now "Counterspin"? Do you StenoTran 3019 1 see that as a more positive portrayal of the issues in 2 terms of analysis of news and current affairs? 3 14420 MS RICHE: I have only seen 4 "Counterspin" a couple of times. I liked it. I was 5 not a fan of "Face Off" generally speaking; I will 6 probably end up not being a fan of "Counterspin". 7 14421 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Why is that? 8 14422 MS RICHE: Because I think that's 9 what they call "fighting fish"; journalists call that 10 fighting fish, the people are screaming at each other. 11 It is not my favourite kind of show. I would say "no" 12 more often than I say "yes" to do those. I think what 13 I am talking about is something along the lines of 14 Allison Smith's sort of stuff where there is a rational 15 discussion and analysis of the issue. 16 14423 I realize certainly trade unions are 17 seen as kind of passionate screamers and rhetorical 18 stuff, and that's why -- why wouldn't they ask someone 19 like me to do that kind of stuff, but I am not sure -- 20 14424 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: They make good 21 television -- 22 14425 MS RICHE: But I am not sure it is 23 helpful at the end of the day. It is not for me, not 24 for me personally. I found "Face Off" -- a lot of the 25 times I just turned it off. I would switch on to see StenoTran 3020 1 what was on and -- "I don't need it." I did it once -- 2 no, it is just, I mean, three people speaking at once 3 is not good to anything. So I would like to see a more 4 in-depth analysis. 5 14426 We have never seen an analysis of a 6 strike on TV unless it goes on for about a year and a 7 half, and the impact on the community, but in terms of 8 when the strike happens, we do here both sides, sort 9 of, sometimes the union is not even named in the story, 10 who represents, and the company name is and the 11 employees of the company but not the union. 12 1200 13 14427 But an analysis of that strike would 14 be really interesting TV because no strike is the same. 15 That kind of thing. 16 14428 But the other thing is we get very 17 little of our side on the emerging work force. I mean 18 it is not discussed on TV in terms of what is happening 19 for people. If you're following the coverage of the 20 current UI debate, now it's become a different debate 21 and story after story is not mentioning what has 22 happened to workers, you know, why we are here, where 23 we are. Now we're having a debate on what to do with 24 the surplus. 25 14429 Now, of course, I'm speaking from a StenoTran 3021 1 really selfish perspective, right? I want my side all 2 the time. But I would like to see it occasionally. 3 You know, there are some things that can happen that 4 it's not a "Counterspin"/ "Faceoff" kind of set-up. 5 14430 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: How about a 6 different kind of -- 7 14431 MR. O'BRIEN: Could I also respond? 8 I mean if you ever had any question about democracy in 9 the labour movement, you're seeing it right here 10 because as a frequent guest on "Counterspin," I want to 11 tell you how fabulous I think the show is. 12 14432 MS. RICHE: It was on once. 13 14433 MR. O'BRIEN: Twice. Twice. 14 14434 MS. RICHE: Twice? 15 14435 MR. O'BRIEN: Twice. Nancy, you 16 should tune in more often. 17 14436 MS. RICHE: I just gave my reason why 18 I don't. 19 14437 MR. O'BRIEN: At any rate. But I do 20 agree that having shows like "Faceoff" and 21 "Counterspin" is not the ultimate solution or is not an 22 alternative to covering the issues of working people in 23 Canada. 24 14438 I have Newsworld on in my office and 25 CTV1 in my office. It's always on low all the time and StenoTran 3022 1 I can't tell you how often, as an example of the kinds 2 of values that are put out there, the hosts of the show 3 or one of the other professionals on camera will 4 mention when they have air time to fill up how they're 5 going to the cottage this weekend, comments like that. 6 I'm thinking how many of our 2.3 million members have 7 cottages to go to? Who are they speaking to in these 8 stations? And I just throw that out as an example of 9 the kinds of values that I think that are put out on 10 news shows on a regular basis. 11 14439 So, in short, I think "Counterspin" 12 and "Faceoff" are good but we would prefer to see the 13 issues of working people covered regularly on national 14 and local newscasts. 15 14440 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, Ms 16 Riche, one of the things that we've been talking about 17 is the lack of a star system in which English-speaking 18 Canada in terms of why people don't recognize and see 19 enough TV. Obviously, Mr. O'Brien is recognizing that 20 more than you have in terms of becoming a star. So 21 you've got some competition. 22 14441 MS. RICHE: That's why they haven't 23 asked me to go on "Counterspin." You understand that's 24 the whole reason for my intervention. 25 14442 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: We will make StenoTran 3023 1 sure Ave Lewis hears about this. 2 14443 Let me ask you, Ms. Grant-Cummings, a 3 couple of questions about some other recommendations 4 that we have made to us in reference to some of the 5 issues you've raised. 6 14444 ACTRA, who is on next, actually, let 7 me just read this recommendation: 8 "In addition, ACTRA believes it 9 is time for the Commission to 10 update its study on gender 11 portrayal. The last report 12 issued in 1990 was based on data 13 collected in 1984 and 1988. 14 Many changes have taken place 15 since that time and it would be 16 valuable to have a report card." 17 (As read) 18 14445 Do you have any thoughts on that? 19 14446 MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS: Yes, we have 20 actually the same recommendation. We didn't call it a 21 report card but the same thing. 22 14447 So, in the written brief that I will 23 be giving you at the end of this, it does have the same 24 thing and we have gone through that 1984 to 1988 stats 25 and I think that's why for us this is such an important StenoTran 3024 1 issue because I think there is a misconception out 2 there that things have actually moved forward. When 3 you speak to people in broadcasting who have come from 4 different walks of life, different backgrounds, you get 5 a greater sense that actually things may have been 6 stripped away or moved backward. 7 14448 So I think it's important to do that 8 research to get what is real and what is really a 9 misconception. 10 14449 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The other 11 recommendation that has been made by friends of the 12 Canadian Broadcasting and I think some others who will 13 be appearing this week is that we establish a task 14 force on racial stereotyping and look at some of the 15 issues around there. 16 14450 I'm trying to think on these two 17 issues about giving the issues you've raised what are 18 the kinds of measures we can take. Are we ready to do 19 something about it? Do we need a little more study? 20 14451 MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS: Yes, I think 21 that would be absolutely essential, and I think if 22 Canadian broadcasters would sort of take their fear 23 away, they would see where this is actually value added 24 type of thing. If we are talking about reaching 30 25 million people across this country from coast to coast StenoTran 3025 1 to coast, and we know in terms of the make-up of this 2 country it is a heterogeneous one, my feeling is that 3 one of the reasons why some Canadians just beam into 4 American junk food programming is because they don't 5 see themselves anywhere in Canadian broadcasting so 6 they do what they think is the next best thing, which 7 actually may be worse for us in the end. So we beam 8 into BET, if we're black, and we watch shows that are 9 more likely to have black actors on, which don't really 10 help in terms of the stereotype issue. 11 14452 But if Canadian broadcasters really 12 wanted to capture who we are, they would take that bold 13 move and participate in a task force like this so we 14 can see the kind of programming that truly reflects who 15 we are. 16 14453 This whole issue of just accepting 17 American culture because they are more powerful 18 financially or whatever reason, I agree it has to do 19 with a lack of capacity in terms of putting resources 20 in and the laziness is there, if you're talking about 21 lazy. I think this task force will be very, very 22 instructive. 23 14454 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In terms of 24 some of the stations that do better in this issue, 25 would you pick out any examples? One that comes to my StenoTran 3026 1 mind is City TV, which seems to do more in terms of 2 reflection of minorities in all their roles, including 3 MuchMusic as well. There's more of a diversity of 4 genres. Would you agree with that? 5 14455 MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS: I think to a 6 degree City does, and what I see happening is that 7 people who started at City, end up on CBC and on other 8 stations later on when it seems they have become, I 9 guess, well known to the Canadian public in terms of 10 their face or in terms of their experience. So I don't 11 know what's happening there. 12 14456 But City does have a better 13 representation. The issue, I think, for some 14 broadcasters who I've spoken to is how they are paid by 15 City and other stations that seem to want them involved 16 and whether they have a real impact on the 17 decision-making mechanisms in terms of programming. 18 14457 So I think there are different levels 19 that we have to look at, not only the fact that one 20 station may have more food colouring, as we call it, 21 but where there are actually people in the organization 22 and do they actually influence programming. 23 14458 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When you 24 mention people move from City to CBC, I recall a 25 comment I read recently by Moses Znaimer after Ave StenoTran 3027 1 Lewis had moved from City to Newsworld, he said CBC was 2 the home for the aged -- Ave Lewis who is 26. I said 3 is there a home for the aged for City graduates or 4 something to that effect. 5 14459 You raise the issue of working 6 conditions and that, and, Ms. Riche, I was a little 7 surprised that you didn't address issues of working 8 conditions, wages levels, job security. Are any of 9 those issues of concern to you in terms of the 10 broadcasting industry, the production industry? 11 14460 MS RICHE: Of course. 12 14461 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Or have you 13 had a chance to look at this? 14 14462 MS. RICHE: Of course, but the brief 15 was prepared in terms of, as I understood this hearing, 16 on Canadian content. 17 14463 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Yeah, okay. 18 14464 MS. RICHE: We did talk about funding 19 and the cutbacks in CBC. So, of course, they are of 20 concern. Obviously, I mean we are CLC. We didn't 21 choose to put it in here. 22 14465 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. 23 14466 MR. O'BRIEN: I will say our 24 component sister or sister and brother unions, ACTRA 25 and the Communications, Energy & Paperworkers will be StenoTran 3028 1 up before this Commission shortly to speak to some of 2 those specifics. 3 14467 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, great. 4 Let me just mention a few other things. Actually, 5 first, it's a comment but also a question, if you've 6 got any comments on it. 7 14468 Ms. Grant-Cummings, about CFMT, you 8 mentioned "The Jerry Springer Show." "The Jerry 9 Springer Show" is not part of the multicultural 10 content, as it were. They have what we refer to as a 11 60/40 deal where 60 per cent of their programming is in 12 languages other than English and 40 is in English 13 programming. 14 14469 Part of the reasoning for that was 15 that the multilingual broadcasting doesn't bring in 16 enough revenue partly because it's also narrow casted, 17 it's hard to raise a lot of advertising money. 18 14470 So they were allowed to carry 40 per 19 cent English programming and a lot of that is American. 20 So it's under that context that "Jerry Springer" comes 21 in. Let it not be said that I'm defending Jerry 22 Springer or any other show, nor am I attacking him at 23 this point but that's part of the deal. Now you might 24 say is that the cost of multicultural programming? 25 14471 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: I mean it's one StenoTran 3029 1 thing, yes, you have that 60 per cent, but I think in 2 terms of how that 40 per cent is used, whether CFMT 3 needs to have access to resources so they can actually 4 develop real Canadian content in that 40 per cent 5 English is something that I think should be discussed. 6 I am sure that people in different communities will 7 want to talk about that. But I don't think that 40 per 8 cent is used well when we spend that money on "Jerry 9 Springer." Because people were not dealing the 10 multiculturalism from that 40 per cent. And to keep 11 your viewership, I think across your whole programming, 12 there has to be something that speaks to the intellect 13 of this multicultural mix. 14 14472 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But he's very 15 popular. He brings in a lot of money. 16 14473 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: It's junk food. 17 The same way we eat chips. Hey, the same way we watch 18 "Jerry Springer." 19 14474 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Lastly, 20 I just want to let you know about four other hearings 21 coming up in reference to some of the issues you've 22 mentioned and it's partly because it's the first time I 23 think either of your organizations have appeared in a 24 little while, certainly the first time while I've been 25 here over the past year. So we want to encourage you StenoTran 3030 1 to come back more. 2 14475 First, in terms of aboriginal 3 programming, you're aware that there's an application. 4 There is a deadline, I believe, later this month. So 5 if you have any views, that's the time to participate. 6 14476 The reason I mention these is because 7 we tend to work fairly discreetly from each process to 8 process because each process, everything you write in 9 or say is on the record of that process so that you and 10 everybody else can see it. That's why we may not get 11 into some of the discussions about these other issues. 12 14477 We have a process on New Media which 13 covers, of course, the Internet issues. The deadline 14 for the first phase was the first of this month but you 15 might talk to our office and find out if you can submit 16 stuff for the second phase, which is early next month. 17 14478 In terms of community programming, 18 you mentioned some concerns about there. We are 19 looking at what's called a broadcast distribution 20 undertakings regulations and that looks at cable 21 companies and other forms of distribution. Issues of 22 community programming would come up there. So if 23 you've got any specifics, that will be at some point 24 next year. 25 14479 I think either later this year or StenoTran 3031 1 early next year, we will be having a review of what's 2 called the self regulatory process, such as the 3 Canadian Broadcast Standards Council you can complain 4 to. 5 14480 So, again, if you've got comments, 6 please keep that one in mind. 7 14481 With that, Madam Chair, those are my 8 questions and comments. 9 14482 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 10 Pennefather? 11 14483 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you, 12 Madam Chair. 13 14484 Ms Grant-Cummings, I was going to ask 14 you for your comment on a task force as well because 15 the Canadian Diversity Network also proposes a similar 16 task force as to the one that Commissioner Cardozo 17 recommended. 18 14485 It is interesting, too, that they 19 recommend more research be done on comparing English 20 and French Canada in terms of visible minorities 21 representation and portrayal. 22 14486 Noting that there appear to be more 23 visible minority journalists in Quebec, and French 24 programming seems to be more culturally and racially 25 representative of the population within Quebec, from StenoTran 3032 1 your perspective, have you looked at the differences 2 and find that an important point, differences in 3 English and French Canada? Many intervenors note, and 4 so does our public, notice the distinctiveness of the 5 French market. I was wondering if in what we are 6 discussing today you have anything to add to that? 7 14487 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: Actually, 8 Quebec -- I think it's the only province in terms of 9 our membership where women in NAC have actually stated 10 that they get a more balanced -- actually a more 11 political analysis from a diverse group of people. 12 14488 The other area that NAC Quebec raised 13 is in terms of how international reporting is done in 14 Quebec, which is much more balanced than is done in 15 English Canada. 16 14489 So I mean definitely something 17 different is happening in Quebec that I think the rest 18 of the provinces and territories need to look at. 19 14490 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. 20 One last question. You mentioned early in your remarks 21 a UN report regarding violence against women on 22 television. Could you just tell me what reports you're 23 referring to and if it's in the process of the 24 follow-up to the Beijing conference or is it another 25 process? StenoTran 3033 1 14491 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: It will be part 2 of what they call in the Beijing Plus Five Process 3 that's going to be concluded in the year 2000. But in 4 the 1997 sitting of the UN Commission on the Status of 5 Women, I think it was their 41st session, one of the 6 things that the special rapporteur in Violence Against 7 Women pointed out is the fact that Canada in the 8 seventies and eighties is when women's organizations 9 really organized and got the government to take 10 seriously this issue and eventually the Canadian public 11 became a leader in coming up with strategies to 12 eliminate violence against women. 13 14492 But what they have seen towards the 14 middle and towards the end of the nineties is Canada 15 actually regressing in terms of the kinds of things 16 that we are doing. 17 14493 For example, the federal government 18 and provincial and territorial governments used to have 19 months where they really blitzed the airwaves with 20 anti-violence information. That is something that most 21 provincial governments don't do anymore, never mind the 22 municipalities. And the federal government does not 23 have an anti-violence strategy per se. And with, I 24 think, the defund into women's groups in order for us 25 to mobilize even around that issue, it has translated StenoTran 3034 1 into violence continuing unabated as far as the 2 rapporteur is concerned. 3 14494 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Are you 4 talking about violence in society or violence in terms 5 of television broadcast media material? 6 14495 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: I think the 7 submission that Canadian women made involved what we 8 see on TV and I think one of the things we talked about 9 was the seemingly acceptance of soft porn as normal 10 when it also constitutes violence against women, 11 according to UN definition and the definition of the 12 women's movement. 13 14496 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: Thank you. 14 I would appreciate if you could give us the specific 15 reference to the specific report. 16 14497 Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 14498 THE CHAIRPERSON: All of you have 18 mentioned business analysis and business news. Do I 19 understand correctly you think there's too much 20 business news and not enough business analysis? 21 14499 And, secondarily, that business 22 analysis doesn't analyze from the point of view of 23 sufficient sectors of society, particularly, let's say, 24 women. It could also be new Canadians. I'm not sure 25 which one it is that you find is a problem. StenoTran 3035 1 14500 I would have thought that the latter 2 would be for people such as your organization that the 3 problem is that women are also interested or should be 4 interested in business analysis and they should have 5 access to analyses that is done from that perspective. 6 14501 For example, there are business 7 occurrences that have a larger impact on women or will 8 have an indirect impact on women because of the groups 9 they represent in the work force or in certain 10 professions or in the federal government. Or which is 11 it? That we're inundated with business news, not 12 sufficient business analysis? Or that where we have 13 business analysis, it's not done from a perspective 14 other than that of the business white man, when, in 15 fact, we're all involved in business, directly or 16 indirectly. 17 14502 MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS: I guess I will 18 start and Nancy and Tom will also. 19 14503 I think one of the things for us is 20 the fact that the globalization of the economy, which 21 is a capitalist economic system that has certain 22 characteristics and values and assumptions is the 23 message that is being sold to us as inevitable and the 24 only viable economic system, number one. 25 14504 The values and the assumptions that StenoTran 3036 1 play out in how that information is relayed to people 2 within Canadian society about our accepting this 3 economic system and when transnational corporations, 4 for example, push governments to adopt a multilateral 5 agreement on investment, for example, the analysis of 6 the impact on women, on indigenous people, on work of 7 people living in poverty isn't done for the main part. 8 What is done is a selling job to the public as to why 9 this is good, not in terms of any possible negative 10 impacts. I mean all of a sudden now the Finance 11 Minister is talking about the market not being always 12 right after all. 13 14505 For the past 10 years, we have heard 14 that the market is always right. So how can you, as a 15 community that may have other opinions, influence the 16 wider Canadian society when everyone is saying the 17 market is always right. You switch to CBC. You switch 18 to CNN. You hear the Prime Minister, the Finance. 19 Everybody is saying this. And the opinions of those of 20 us who fare impacted negatively about the market isn't 21 said at the same time or included in any analysis of 22 this new perspective around the market. 23 14506 So the analysis is a major piece and, 24 yes, we all want to do business, hear what's happening 25 in terms of business. But the hidden costs to many of StenoTran 3037 1 us are not put out. 2 14507 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would suspect 3 that these hidden costs are also borne by white males. 4 We know white males and business people and some white 5 women or women of colour are business people. 6 14508 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: Yes, you are -- 7 14509 THE CHAIRPERSON: You would agree 8 that the difficult part of all this is to get the 9 analysis to address the various segments of society and 10 the manner in which any business occurrence or budget 11 decision will affect them. And I would think that that 12 would include a whole lot of groups, including white 13 males who are other than the business white males who 14 are in the business itself. And that's very difficult 15 because that's getting into actual programming content 16 and how it's addressed. It's an endemic problem in the 17 press. It's an endemic problem in the media. 18 14510 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: And that's why 19 I'm saying the values and assumption of the voice that 20 is heard is only -- Tom's values and assumptions aren't 21 the ones that we are hearing. We are hearing the 22 values and the assumptions of a particular group of 23 business people who are saying this is what we must 24 accept. We are not getting that counter balance with 25 even the white male voices that have different values StenoTran 3038 1 and assumptions 2 1220 3 14511 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: That is why I am 4 saying the values and assumption of the voice that is 5 heard is the only -- Tom's values and assumptions are 6 the ones that we are hearing. We are hearing the 7 values and the assumption of a particularly elite group 8 of business people who are saying this is what we must 9 accept. We are not getting that counterbalance with 10 even other white male voices that have different values 11 and assumptions. 12 14512 So, if we look at values, the 13 principle of values, that's the piece where I think the 14 problem filters down and how the analysis is then 15 constructed. 16 14513 MS RICHE: We tend to use the word 17 "business" as something greater than it is because the 18 shows are called business shows. It's the perspective 19 from which it is presented and that's a choice by the 20 television stations by who they invite to come and do 21 the analysis. I mean somebody sits in a room and they 22 decide who is the expert in it. 23 14514 If it never goes beyond that, then it 24 will always be the same people that they will call who 25 are the experts. I mean all of us in this room could StenoTran 3039 1 name the six or seven people who do the kind of 2 business analysis that we see. It is not merely a 3 report. It is the analysis. 4 14515 If we watch the fall of the loony and 5 listen to those people who said, "Well, it can go much 6 further. This is quite all right. Relax. Chill out." 7 And a week later I saw exactly the same person saying, 8 "It's time to panic." I even questioned the ability of 9 the person to give the analysis at the time, thinking 10 how come this person keeps continuously being asked to 11 do this. 12 14516 If those people they ask are not able 13 to give the impact of the particular story on all 14 segments of society, and it appears they aren't if we 15 are concerned that some voices are not being heard, 16 then other voices have to be brought to the table 17 because we do not hear the balance in the view and I 18 understand that. I understand that. I mean, people 19 speak from their perspective, from their cognitive 20 structure, from their own experiences. I mean that's 21 where they speak to. 22 14517 So that means then you go to Joan's 23 point of other faces, other voices have to be there 24 because I don't think we can trust those who are there 25 to just expand their analysis to make sure everybody is StenoTran 3040 1 included or every sector is included. 2 14518 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe the next time 3 Mr. O'Brien is invited on those programs he will have 4 to decline in favour of someone else. 5 14519 MS RICHE: Exactly. 6 14520 MR. O'BRIEN: Thank you, Nancy. 7 14521 We see business news as a misnomer. 8 It is managers' news and investors' news. It is not 9 news from the point of view -- it is rarely news from 10 the point of view of the consumers who buy the products 11 and the services and from the workers who manufacture 12 or serve those products or services. 13 14522 Obviously this is anecdotal, but it 14 actually speaks to the intervenor funding issue because 15 I notice that, for instance, the Public Interest 16 Advocacy Centre was on last week and they represented 17 four organizations. When they have been before this 18 Commission in the past in other hearings on other 19 issues, they have gotten intervenor funding to do the 20 economic analysis and the legal analysis that allows 21 them essentially to compete intellectually with some of 22 the well-funded heavyweights that have appeared before 23 you. 24 14523 If intervenor funding was available 25 for this particular hearing maybe we could have done StenoTran 3041 1 the kind of quantitative analysis of how many hours and 2 minutes of business news there is in fact on the air, 3 as well as the qualitative analysis of the content of 4 that business news. 5 14524 THE CHAIRPERSON: Intervenor funding 6 is, of course, a problem that goes beyond what the 7 Commission would like to do, but, on the other hand, 8 organizations such as yours decide where they spend 9 their funds. 10 14525 You were talking of choice earlier, 11 Madam Riche, and there is a point at which choices are 12 made, including by your organization as to how much 13 energy to put into any particular process, depending on 14 how important you find it to be. 15 14526 MS RICHE: We are in the position to 16 make the choice. I think what we are saying is there 17 are groups that are not even at that point to make the 18 choice, as we are. 19 14527 THE CHAIRPERSON: And we do operate 20 under two different Acts of Parliament, so that 21 presents a problem as to what the powers are to assign 22 anyone's costs, but they have been making that point 23 and we are hearing it. 24 14528 MR. O'BRIEN: One last thing, Madam 25 Chair. We understand that the Canadian Association of StenoTran 3042 1 Broadcasters, that is private broadcasters, has spent 2 three-quarters of a million dollars preparing for this 3 hearing -- preparing their brief for this hearing. 4 14529 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would very much 5 hesitate to put a price or a value on the information 6 they brought us, so I am not going to comment. 7 14530 MR. O'BRIEN: I was just going to say 8 if in fact that's true, even the Canadian Labour 9 Congress, with our resources, could never spend that 10 kind of money preparing for one hearing. I don't think 11 there is a non-profit organization -- maybe all of us 12 combined could spend that kind of money preparing for 13 one hearing. 14 14531 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam 15 Grant-Cummings, you mentioned earlier the difficulty of 16 Media Watch not being able to afford to come and make a 17 presentation here. Are you aware whether they appeared 18 at any of the June town hall meetings we conducted 19 across Canada? 20 14532 MS GRANT-CUMMINGS: No. They didn't 21 relay that to us, but certainly in us coming here we 22 communicated with Media Watch to find out whether or 23 not they would be able to participate and they told us 24 they wouldn't. 25 14533 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because there is StenoTran 3043 1 obviously more than today's opportunity to appear. The 2 Commission did make an effort in June to have open 3 meetings in a number of cities across Canada and, of 4 course, any written submission that is before us gets 5 equal weight. We have them, we read them and we take 6 them into consideration. 7 14534 I would be surprised if we didn't 8 hear from Media Watch at some of those meetings, but 9 they were certainly there in a number of cities to 10 facilitate public access, which we are trying very hard 11 to enlarge by making it easier and not requiring that 12 everybody come to Hull in this process. I would like 13 to assure you that the transcripts of those town hall 14 meetings or roundtables are part of the record of this 15 process and has the same weight as the transcript of 16 what is occurring today. 17 14535 We do thank you for coming. We 18 regret if we were not able to accommodate you 19 perfectly. We enjoyed having you and we hope we will 20 see you again. 21 14536 Thank you, Madam Riche, Madam 22 Grant-Cummings and Mr. O'Brien. 23 14537 MS RICHE: Thank you. 24 14538 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary. 25 14539 Mme SANTERRE: Merci, Madame la StenoTran 3044 1 Présidente. 2 14540 The next presentation will be done by 3 ACTRA, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and 4 Radio Artists. 5 14541 THE CHAIRPERSON: I would appreciate 6 it if you would introduce yourselves again because I 7 was distracted while you did. Saturday I mistook a man 8 for a woman, so I did not do very well by having missed 9 the introduction and the change. To my horror it was a 10 writer of "Legends of Ottawa Valley Mishaps," so 11 hopefully he will be kind if he writes one about this. 12 14542 I would appreciate it if you 13 reintroduce yourselves because I did miss your names. 14 14543 MR. GROMOFF: I am Brian Gromoff. I 15 am the President of ACTRA. Thank you. 16 14544 THE CHAIRPERSON: And your colleague? 17 14545 MR. GROMOFF: My colleague is -- 18 14546 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you don't know 19 either. 20 14547 MR. GROMOFF: Garry Neil, who is our 21 policy advisor. 22 14548 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 23 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 24 14549 MR. GROMOFF: Thank you, Madam Wylie 25 and Commissioners. Congratulations on your appointment StenoTran 3045 1 as Vice-Chair of the Commission and best wishes to 2 Madam Bertrand for a speedy recovery. 3 14550 Let me first say how delighted I am 4 to appear before you today. My name is Brian Gromoff. 5 I am an actor in Calgary and President of the ACTRA 6 Performers Guild. With me is Garry Neil, ACTRA's 7 policy advisor. 8 14551 Now, for more than 50 years ACTRA and 9 its predecessor organizations have represented 10 professional artists working in Canada's audio-visual 11 industry. ACTRA today represents the collective 12 bargaining needs of more than 11,000 members who work 13 in the Canadian television programs produced from cost 14 to coast which are at the heart of your deliberations. 15 14552 I am also honoured to follow in the 16 footsteps of previous ACTRA Presidents who have 17 appeared before you and your predecessors, even as far 18 back as the Board of Broadcast Governors on many 19 occasions to discuss the issues of today. 20 14553 As we look back over the many 21 appearances ACTRA has made over the years, one theme 22 has been central to our representations -- Canada's 23 professional performing community believes passionately 24 that Canada must have a strong Canadian presence 25 through its artists and creators in all media and in StenoTran 3046 1 all genre of production. 2 14554 While the central theme of our 3 representations has remained remarkably consistent over 4 more than 30 years, the changing environment has 5 resulted in bringing forward many different ideas about 6 how we can provide that choice in each era. Some of 7 ACTRA's ideas have found their way into regulations and 8 policies; other have not. Overall, ACTRA has a proud 9 legacy. 10 14555 I put today's discussion in this 11 historical context because I believe we must first of 12 all celebrate the tremendous accomplishments of 13 Canada's television system. Despite the challenges of 14 financing and competition from our southern neighbour, 15 the past 15 years has seen a huge growth in the number 16 and quality of Canadian programs. 17 14556 Canadian programs are exported to 18 world audiences and some Canadian performers, we can 19 think of Paul Gross, Sonja Smits, Bill Hurt, Sara 20 Polly, Graham Green, and many others, have become stars 21 in our own country. And for those of us that saw the 22 Gemini's last night, I think that will be proof indeed. 23 14557 Every part of the system deserves 24 credit for this success, independent producers, the 25 CBC, the CRTC, private broadcasters, actors, directors StenoTran 3047 1 and technicians, but we all know that problems remain. 2 While Canadians enjoy a broad range of news and 3 information program choices, there are not enough 4 Canadian entertainment programs available. We still do 5 not have an adequate supply of quality Canadian drama, 6 variety, children's, serious music and dance programs 7 to meet our needs. 8 14558 Now, some have argued at these 9 hearings that because of technological change, 10 expanding communal choice in both services and 11 suppliers and globalization, the CRTC should reduce, 12 eliminate or rollback the regulations which are the 13 foundation of the success. 14 14559 ACTRA rejects these arguments and 15 believes these hearings must be about how we can build 16 on the success you help to create and move to the next 17 level of development. ACTRA believes that we can build 18 a system in which Canadians can choose from among a 19 range of high quality Canadian programs in every genre 20 at any time of the day. 21 14560 It is in this context that ACTRA has 22 put forward its proposals for your consideration and 23 for discussion among our colleagues and the public. I 24 would just like to go through the key points from our 25 submission. StenoTran 3048 1 14561 One, jointly with the Directors Guild 2 of Canada, the Writers Guild of Canada and others, 3 ACTRA submits that the CRTC should establish a new 4 bench mark for private conventional broadcasters. The 5 bench mark would provide that each licensee must spend 6 no less than 7 per cent of gross revenues on 7 entertainment programs -- that is Category 7, 8 and 8 9 -- and must schedule on a weekly basis seven hours of 9 first run entertainment programs between the hours of 10 7:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. 11 14562 Now, in tabling this proposal we 12 reject the negative scenario about future prospects of 13 private broadcasters put before you by the Canadian 14 Association of Broadcasters and believe that these 15 broadcasters will remain profitable into the next 16 century, albeit with rates of return which are lower 17 than they have achieved in the past few years. A small 18 price to pay for a truly Canadian set of choices. 19 14563 Secondly, members of ACTRA want to 20 work, to practice the craft for which we have trained 21 for years. And while work opportunities are important, 22 most members I talked to want most of all to work on 23 Canadian programs which tell our stories because we 24 understand the impact of and, therefore, the cultural 25 importance of television. StenoTran 3049 1 14564 But ACTRA firmly rejects the argument 2 of some intervenors that Canadian artists should be 3 limited only to telling stories about Canada, the 4 wheat, cowboy and beaver syndrome. We must continue to 5 be free to tell stories about any topic we want. 6 14565 ACTRA supports the maintenance of the 7 principal which underlies the point system. 8 14566 If Canadian artists tell the story 9 regardless of the topic and where it is set, we will 10 bring a Canadian sensibility and perspective to it. 11 But ACTRA does believe that it is time to increase the 12 on-screen presence of Canadians in Canadian content 13 programming. 14 14567 This will address the desire of those 15 intervenors who want to see a more distinctively 16 Canadian orientation on the television screen. It is 17 for this reason that ACTRA has proposed that the 18 existing point system be revised to increase the number 19 of points awarded for performer categories from two to 20 four. 21 14568 In ACTRA's proposal the lead 22 performer would be awarded two points and one point 23 would be awarded each of the second and third leads. A 24 producer would be required to obtain at least two 25 points for the performer categories to qualify the StenoTran 3050 1 program as Cancon. 2 14569 ACTRA believes the CRTC should also 3 give serious consideration to increasing the minimum 4 threshold to achieve Canadian status. In the existing 5 point system it is perhaps time to establish a new 6 minimum of eight out of ten points. In the new system 7 proposed by ACTRA, 10 out of 12 will be required to 8 achieve recognition as a Canadian program. 9 14570 Thirdly, ACTRA has advanced a 10 proposal which will help the system to achieve its 11 promise in the next century. We share concerns 12 expressed to you about the precipitous decline in local 13 programming. We believe that BDUs should do more to 14 support Cancon production. The system overall needs 15 more serious music and dance programs and perhaps a 16 mechanism could be found to obtain a contribution 17 towards Canadian production from U.S. services 18 distributed in Canada. 19 14571 ACTRA has filed a comprehensive 20 submission on all the issues in the CRTC's Public 21 Notices and we would be pleased to discuss any of these 22 with you. Thank you. 23 14572 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 24 Cardozo. 25 14573 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thank you, StenoTran 3051 1 Madam Chair. 2 14574 Thank you, Mr. Gromoff. 3 14575 What I would like to do is to go 4 through some of the recommendations you have put 5 forward in your written brief and have talked to today 6 as well. Let me start with the CBC and perhaps in the 7 written brief more than today. You talk about the CBC 8 being the cornerstone, and this is in Recommendation 5, 9 being the cornerstone of the broadcasting world. Are 10 there things about the CBC that you think are important 11 for the CBC to do in this cornerstone role and are 12 there things that you would see them doing which the 13 private broadcasters would either not be interested or 14 not be doing for any other reason? 15 14576 MR. NEIL: In our view, the CBC has a 16 comprehensive to play in the system and it should be 17 providing a range of programming, alternatives, and a 18 range of news and information programming. 19 14577 It will naturally because of its 20 public nature be able to do some things which private 21 broadcasters are unable to do. Particularly, it should 22 be more of a risk taker perhaps. It should be doing -- 23 certainly it should have greater obligations in some of 24 the social issues that you were discussing with the 25 previous intervenors. StenoTran 3052 1 14578 But we don't see that the CBC should 2 not be involved in something because the private sector 3 is doing it. We think that the CBC ought to be 4 properly funded to do all of the things which the 5 Broadcasting Act says it will do. 6 14579 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 7 14580 How about high profile sports events 8 which are bid for in very big dollar terms and some 9 private broadcasters have suggested that the CBC has 10 much deeper pockets and, therefore, there isn't a fair 11 competition when the bidding goes on for those types of 12 programming? 13 14581 MR. NEIL: In a universe while in an 14 ideal world it may be that the CBC's contribution in 15 the sports area will be in more locally and regionally 16 based or perhaps in sports that aren't as well covered 17 as others, we are far from an ideal world. I would 18 have a tough time accepting that the CBC would have to 19 get out of sports programming in a universe in which 20 they are not sufficiently funded. 21 14582 It is my understanding that the CBC 22 continues to make a considerable amount of money on 23 sports programming, which then can subsidize other 24 parts of the program schedule. The CBC after all is 25 the first conventional broadcaster to be truly Canadian StenoTran 3053 1 in its prime time hours and that costs money. 2 14583 So, to the extent that we don't get 3 to that ideal world where public dollars are fully 4 supporting the CBC, then I would have a tough time 5 personally in saying that the CBC ought to get out of 6 something in which they can make money to contribute to 7 their other objectives. 8 14584 MR. GROMOFF: We don't believe the 9 CBC should be ghettoized into producing the only 10 Canadian content. It is everybody's responsibility who 11 broadcasts in Canada to produce Canadian. 12 14585 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But is it fair 13 to expect as much Canadian broadcasting from the others 14 when the Crown corporation does get quite a bit of 15 public funding? Is it fair to believe that there will 16 be a differential in who does how many hours? 17 14586 MR. NEIL: Absolutely. There should 18 be a differential. We think that differential is 19 happening. We are not proposing in here the seven 20 hours of original Category 7, 8 and 9 programming per 21 week for conventional broadcasters is still much less 22 than the CBC has in their current schedule. So, we 23 don't see that the contribution of each is going to be 24 identical. 25 14587 We think that the CBC is now StenoTran 3054 1 basically taking the right approach, that in its 2 prime-time schedule it is Canadian. Where it uses 3 foreign material it should be foreign material that is 4 not otherwise available to us, which would mean 5 essentially non-commercial -- non-U.S. commercial or 6 programming from other parts of the world. 7 1240 8 14588 But again, going back to the sports 9 programming, just where they make a considerable amount 10 of money at it, it's pretty tough to say that they 11 should get out of it. 12 14589 MR. GROMOFF: If we look again at the 13 Geminis from last night, the CBC garnered many, many 14 awards for its Canadian content, rather than the public 15 broadcasters, the ad broadcasters. 16 14590 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The best show 17 went to Global for "Traders." 18 14591 MR. GROMOFF: In one out of 67. 19 14592 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I think they 20 got more than that. Anyhow, let me move -- 21 14593 MR. GROMOFF: 406. 22 14594 MR. NEIL: And TV Ontario was second 23 in number of awards won. 24 14595 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In terms of 25 recommendation seven, regarding the regulations for StenoTran 3055 1 broadcast undertakings, I put this issue to the CCTA, 2 Canadian Cable Television Association, last Saturday. 3 I liberally read out of your brief and put it to them. 4 And they had objection to it on two counts. One, is 5 they felt that the increase from five to seven percent, 6 that two percent would simply get carried through, 7 transferred over, passed on to the subscriber, who they 8 felt shouldn't have to cough up more. 9 14596 And the other is that the limit that 10 you have -- maybe I'll just read this into the record, 11 especially if there are people watching this and 12 wondering what we're talking about. You say, number 13 seven: 14 "The CRTC should begin to 15 increase the contributions made 16 by broadcasters' [distribution*] 17 undertakings and others to the 18 program funds to a new benchmark 19 of seven percent, and should 20 limit to two percent the amount 21 that the BDUs can reduce the 22 contribution in respect of 23 spending on community channels." 24 (As read) 25 14597 So they didn't agree with the seven StenoTran 3056 1 percent because it was an increase that would get 2 passed through to the subscriber, and they felt that 3 the limit of two percent for their own community 4 programming would unfairly harm their community 5 programming. The point being, that when you've got 6 community programming, it's important to have a good -- 7 in somebody else's words -- "look and feel to it" in 8 order to capture those viewers. 9 14598 What's your response to their 10 response to your recommendation? And you get the last 11 word, because they're not on again. At least, 12 verbally. 13 14599 MR. NEIL: I think there's a big 14 discussion that needs to be had in this country about 15 the community channel and their role and 16 responsibilities. And ACTRA and indeed, I think, I, 17 personally, have appeared when I was previously at 18 ACTRA before this Commission, and talked about a 19 significant number of problems that we have had over 20 the years with the community channel and the lack of 21 accountability, shall we say, for that resource. 22 14600 And it's in that context that we have 23 put forward this proposal about limiting their ability 24 to otherwise contribute to Canadian content programming 25 through spending on the community channel. StenoTran 3057 1 14601 If indeed, the community channel is 2 becoming an important mechanism by which cable 3 companies are differentiating themselves in a 4 increasingly crowded marketplace, then they ought to be 5 spending their resources internally on that programming 6 to attract the audiences. And we don't see that they 7 should be taking away from -- which is essentially what 8 it boils down to, otherwise -- their contribution to 9 Canadian content programming through this spending. 10 14602 With respect to the increase, I guess 11 it's very much, again, one of these cases where it's 12 difficult for us to make a comment about how they are 13 spending their money, and about whether or not an 14 additional contribution could be easily made from 15 companies where we do not have, really, sufficient 16 access to financial information -- much of which is 17 considered to be proprietary -- financial information 18 to truly judge how their resources are being allocated 19 and spent. And overall, we believe that the 20 recommendation that we have made is quite a reasonable 21 one if we look out over the next few years, and is one 22 that the cable companies could, in fact, absorb. 23 14603 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But you're 24 thinking that the increased two percent, if it were to 25 be put in place, should not be passed on to the StenoTran 3058 1 subscriber? 2 14604 MR. NEIL: That would be our 3 preference, yes, absolutely. 4 14605 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I guess 5 there'll be more time to discuss that in the review of 6 the BDU regulations next year. 7 14606 Just a word about ACTRA Works. Can 8 you give us a little bit of background about ACTRA 9 Works and how it works? 10 14607 MR. GROMOFF: ACTRA Works is a way in 11 which we believe we can help further train, further 12 enhance the skills of our members, and of non-members, 13 in fact, as well. We have, within our own 14 organization, members who have taught a lot within the 15 profession, and what we're using is those people to 16 train other people throughout the country, so it's not 17 centralised. What this is is ongoing professional 18 training for members across the country, done by 19 members in the community. 20 14608 It started out, first of all, with 21 people from Toronto, as it happens, who went across the 22 country. Now what we're doing is training people 23 within the community in order to train not only actors, 24 but our apprentice members and non-members as well. So 25 that the the quality of professionalism, the quality of StenoTran 3059 1 performance, the quality of talent can be increased 2 throughout the country. 3 14609 MR. NEIL: So as we note, it's an 4 independent, not-for-profit agency now. That's the 5 legal structure of it. And it organises and delivers 6 training programs. So programs in dialects, or 7 auditioning techniques, or techniques for film versus 8 television, specialised things that performers need to 9 know if they're going to keep up to date with their 10 profession. 11 14610 MR. GROMOFF: It's there also to make 12 certain that, let's say, theatre actors who haven't had 13 much television experience can now start getting that 14 television experience are given training in that. 15 People who haven't done voice work, haven't done 16 dubbing, haven't done animation, they can exposure to 17 that. 18 14611 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what's the 19 source of its income now? 20 14612 MR. GROMOFF: Source of income -- 21 originally, it got money from CHRC, and ACTRA 22 fraternal, and ACTRA Performers Guild itself. And 23 there was a charge to members. What we found was that 24 across the country, most of the branches, because they 25 wanted their members to take these courses, would, in StenoTran 3060 1 fact, subsidise their members in order to take the 2 courses. 3 14613 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. In 4 recommendation eight, you talked about commercials and 5 promotion, and if I can summarise, you said that the 6 CRTC should encourage production of Canadian 7 commercials and airing of these commercials during 8 prime time. One of the ways to encourage that that has 9 been suggested by some intervenors has been that we 10 recognise Canadian commercials as Canadian content. Is 11 that the kind of encouragement you're talking about? 12 Because these are going to be your actors, right? 13 14614 MR. NEIL: Yeah. We haven't thought 14 of that in particular, but it's certainly one that 15 sounds to me to be a positive incentive. The problem 16 in the commercial field is that -- I don't think we 17 have this figure in here, because the campaign that we 18 allude to in the written document has not yet gotten 19 off the ground. It's a campaign that we're trying to 20 develop jointly with the advertising industry, both the 21 advertising agencies and the advertisers, who are 22 represented by the Association of Canadian Advertisers. 23 14615 We have seen a serious decline in the 24 volume of commercial production in Canada to the level 25 of probably only half of the television commercials in StenoTran 3061 1 English that are broadcast on Canadian television are 2 now produced in Canada. 3 14616 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Of Canadian 4 products? 5 14617 MR. NEIL: No, this is overall of 6 commercial time placed on the Canadian broadcasting 7 system. It's hard to come up with a figure, because 8 you guys stopped collecting figures on commercials a 9 number of years ago. That was part of the first round 10 of deregulation. It's hard to come up with figures. 11 What we rely on is Telecaster, which is an agency 12 through which advertisers go to when they have a 13 commercial they wish to place in the Canadian system. 14 So roughly, in our estimate, and this is not just us, 15 but the advertising industry as well, roughly half of 16 the commercials that are placed in the Canadian 17 advertising system now originate outside the country. 18 So, if your product is a product that's available both 19 in Canada and the United States, then you're able 20 simply to place a US commercial and advertise that 21 product. 22 14618 So the problem becomes even more 23 significant if that overall 50 percent figure is more 24 or less accurate -- and we believe it to be -- if you 25 have a product that's uniquely Canadian, like you're a StenoTran 3062 1 Canadian government which is advertising, which is 2 done; or you're a Canadian lottery, which is 3 advertising, which advertises extensively; or a 4 Canadian beer product, which is advertising 5 extensively -- those have to be Canadian production. 6 14619 So what it means to us, is that some 7 of the products which are sold globally, or certainly 8 throughout North America -- those commercials for those 9 products in the Canadian system are now almost entirely 10 made outside of Canada. So we don't have the work 11 opportunities, and more importantly, there's a cultural 12 message in commercials. It shows the sensibility of a 13 culture. 14 14620 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So you can see 15 this counting of commercials as Canadian content, so 16 long as they're produced in Canada, and therefore you 17 would give them a preference. 18 14621 MR. GROMOFF: It's an interesting 19 concept, one that I think we'd have to discuss and 20 think about, but it is an idea. Yes, it is an idea. 21 And I think what I'm getting from you is that all we're 22 interested in is the work. It's not just the work. As 23 I said in my brief, it's also the Canadian sensibility, 24 and as Garry has said, there's Canadian sensibility to 25 those commercials as well. StenoTran 3063 1 14622 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you've got 2 any further thoughts on that, let us know by the fabled 3 date of October the 15th. 4 14623 MR. GROMOFF: Thank you. 5 14624 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have 6 any other suggestions about how we could encourage 7 production of Canadian commercials? 8 14625 MR. NEIL: The principal one that 9 we're working on with the industry, is to go jointly to 10 government and seek the expansion of the tax credit 11 program, which would then provide an encouragement for 12 producers of commercials to produce them here, because 13 there would be a certain credit that they'd receive for 14 the hiring of Canadians as talent and technicians and 15 so forth. So that's the principal -- 16 14626 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's a tax 17 measure, then? 18 14627 MR. NEIL: Yes. 19 14628 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So it wouldn't 20 be within our -- 21 14629 MR. NEIL: No, it would not be within 22 your bailiwick. Aside from that, despite our best 23 efforts, we have been unable to come up with other 24 measures that we could see that you could take that 25 would assist. StenoTran 3064 1 14630 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: What are your 2 thoughts about infomercials, which are growing in 3 number? There's been a recommendation, at least one, 4 that infomercials produced in Canada be recognised as 5 Canadian content. 6 14631 MR. NEIL: I think the only way that 7 we would be prepared to consider that would be in the 8 context of increased requirements for Canadian content. 9 So if the requirements for Canadian content don't 10 change, then I think we would have difficulty in 11 accepting a change that would have the effect of 12 including infomercials. 13 14632 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But isn't it a 14 problem if we upped it by, say, one hour a week and 15 said you can do one hour of infomercials a week as 16 well, that's what would happen, and all we'd be doing 17 is just saying, go out and do an hour of infomercials. 18 Unless it was two hours for one or something like that. 19 14633 MR. GROMOFF: I think what we've got 20 to be careful of, is that in the end everyone's doing 21 anything else but Canadian content. 22 14634 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Infomercial -- 23 14635 MR. GROMOFF: Yeah, infomercial is 24 slightly different from Canadian drama or Canadian 25 music variety, et cetera. StenoTran 3065 1 14636 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, in 2 recommendation nine, you talked about incentives for 3 local programming, an issue that has come to us 4 repeatedly in our round tables that we had across the 5 country in June, as well as in some of the hearings so 6 far. Any specific incentives you'd suggest for local 7 programming? 8 14637 MR. NEIL: One of the things that we 9 have in our brief is this notion that maybe we should 10 be looking at the incentive system, which you already 11 have in a small form, the 150 percent credit for 12 Canadian drama in prime time. Maybe we should look at 13 that whole system to provide both incentives and 14 disincentives, as we were, because maybe we should 15 weight different kinds of programming in different 16 ways. And, you know, at the one extreme, maybe we 17 should only be offering a 75 percent credit if it's a 18 news or information program or a sports program, and 19 maybe there should be a higher credit if it's a feature 20 film designed for theatrical release, that actually has 21 theatrical release, but then subsequently goes to the 22 broadcasting system. In such an environment, then it 23 may be possible to have additional credits for local 24 programming, particularly if that local production is 25 in some of the underrepresented categories. StenoTran 3066 1 14638 I'm old enough to remember when we 2 used to have, on some stations, local variety, you 3 know. Never much local drama, but certainly local 4 variety. And that's disappeared from the system. 5 14639 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You're older 6 than you look. 7 14640 MR. NEIL: I've been at this game a 8 long time. 9 14641 MR. GROMOFF: You had local drama on 10 radio. 11 14642 MR. NEIL: So that would be one idea, 12 because you might then be able to factor various kinds 13 of programming and create credit incentives for certain 14 kinds of programming and perhaps a modest disincentive 15 for another kind of programming. That's one idea that 16 we had. 17 14643 Another idea that may be useful to 18 consider for all of us, was the idea the Friends of 19 Canadian Broadcasting brought forward, which would be 20 to try to create a pool of money through the CTCPF, or 21 whatever it's now called, that would be available for 22 local production. 23 14644 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, in 24 recommendation ten, you talked about encouraging 25 broader input into the CRTC process. That issue isn't StenoTran 3067 1 exactly the issue of this hearing, but perhaps you can 2 just briefly give us any specific ideas about how we 3 could encourage broader participation in our process? 4 14645 MR. NEIL: First of all, I think the 5 way you've conducted these hearings, and particularly 6 the public consultation process, is an excellent 7 example of that. That was an idea that we found very, 8 very exciting. And I'm not sure if many of our local 9 branches took advantage of that opportunity, but it's 10 certainly a way you can have much broader input to 11 these processes. 12 14646 I think we have to find a way to 13 provide some funding for organisations that cannot 14 match the financial resources that other organisations 15 have to find a way to have some kind of support for 16 intervenors -- certain kinds of intervenors. 17 14647 There are people that you really 18 should be hearing from that unfortunately you can't 19 hear from, even in that kind of process of public 20 consultations around the country, because that doesn't 21 go to the question of research, for example. 22 14648 You know, none of us is able to come 23 before you -- the last intervenor, indeed, in our own 24 document we talk about the need to talk about the study 25 of gender portrayal in the system. Ten or 15 years StenoTran 3068 1 ago, ACTRA may have been in a position itself where, in 2 preparation for these hearings, it would have 3 undertaken some kind of survey. We have done that in 4 the past. But we don't have the resources where we can 5 do that any more. So we're unable to bring before you 6 any research on that issue, which is a really important 7 one. 8 14649 So I think in the end, we have to 9 find a way where some of that kind of public interest 10 representation can be supported actively and 11 financially by the Commission. 12 14650 MR. GROMOFF: It's just to make 13 certain that we don't have any disenfranchised groups 14 that cannot somehow get to the hearings in one way or 15 another. It may mean better advertising of your 16 travels across the country. It may mean better making 17 certain that you communicate with those groups, rather 18 than those groups having to find out. 19 14651 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So maybe we 20 could have Canadian content advertising, maybe by your 21 members, and give that 200 percent credit. That's one 22 way to get the word out. 23 14652 On page 21, you've talked about 24 cultural diversity, and you've simply said continue to 25 monitor and regulate, apply conditions of licence. I StenoTran 3069 1 wonder if you've got any specifics on that in terms of 2 conditions of licence? That was in response to the 3 question we had raised about the reflection of cultural 4 and racial minorities and aboriginal peoples. 5 14653 MR. NEIL: Here again, I think that 6 we're in a position where we're unable to bring you 7 more concrete research and background, but certainly, 8 once again, if we look to the potential of some kind of 9 bonusing system that is much more detailed than the one 10 you currently have, that also has certain what I've 11 been calling disincentives, you can see incentives 12 working their way through that kind of approach. 13 14654 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: An incentive 14 to what effect? 15 14655 MR. NEIL: If you have certain kinds 16 of programming, for example, you might find that you 17 have a greater incentive if there's a particular kind 18 of program that's useful for a particular community, 19 comes out of that community for broader distribution. 20 That kind of thing. 21 1305 22 14656 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My memory is a 23 bit weak on this, but a few years ago, as I recall it, 24 ACTRA put together a book out of -- somebody in your 25 Toronto operation I suppose, which was a catalogue of StenoTran 3070 1 ACTRA members from racial minority groups I think. I 2 wonder if you have any more information on how that 3 project has gone. 4 14657 MR. GROMOFF: That was "Into the 5 Mainstream"? 6 14658 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's right, 7 yes. 8 14659 MR. GROMOFF: It was a kind of 9 counterbalance to "Face to Face", which was the book in 10 which both theatre people and television and film 11 people were in. 12 14660 We found that, as the previous 13 intervener has said, there is not enough representation 14 of visual, et cetera, minorities, so we decided that 15 this would be a wonderful way to promote our members 16 who were out of the mainstream, trying to get them into 17 the mainstream. We financed that through ACTRA. 18 14661 Also, ACTRA Fraternal and Ontario, et 19 cetera, some other funding agencies came through with 20 money, and we made it so that it was free, in fact, to 21 members to go into the book. Then gradually, because 22 of costs and because of lack of funding, we had to 23 start charging members. 24 14662 Now, what we have done is in fact 25 integrated them into the whole of "Face to Face". So StenoTran 3071 1 what we are now saying is, you are in the mainstream 2 now. 3 14663 We found that various producers 4 certainly looked at it and used members from it, and we 5 found it a very good tool for our members. 6 --- Short pause / Courte pause 7 14664 MR. GROMOFF: What Gary was saying 8 was, we also make it easier for members to become 9 members of ACTRA as visible minorities, et cetera. 10 14665 MR. NEIL: "Into the Mainstream", we 11 continue to publish that. It is now fully integrated. 12 It is also on line. It is done electronically now, so 13 it is constantly updated. 14 14666 So it is a tool that's used by 15 casting agents, talent agents and the producers 16 themselves and is a widely used tool throughout the 17 North American industry. It is widely used in the 18 U.S., for example. 19 14667 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It is a 20 catalogue of profiles of actors. 21 14668 MR. NEIL: That's right, yes. 22 14669 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could I ask 23 you to file a copy of -- "Face to Face" is the overall 24 book, is it? 25 14670 MR. GROMOFF: "Face to Face" is the StenoTran 3072 1 overall book, and "Face to Face" on line is the 2 computer set-up. Then there is "Into the Mainstream", 3 which was another book. 4 14671 Would you like a copy of that? 5 14672 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Could I ask 6 you to file a copy of both, "Into the Mainstream" as 7 well as the other? 8 14673 MR. GROMOFF: Certainly. 9 14674 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: It is useful 10 to have examples of the kinds of measures people have 11 taken to integrate. 12 14675 Again, if my memory serves me right, 13 in the United States there is a part of ACTRA that's 14 called -- there is a group called Black ACTRA. Are you 15 familiar with that at all? 16 14676 MR. GROMOFF: ACTRA or Black AFTRA? 17 14677 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: My 18 understanding is that was a committee or a group within 19 ACTRA. 20 14678 MR. GROMOFF: There is an Equal 21 Opportunities Committee within our organization. 22 14679 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Oh, is there? 23 14680 MR. GROMOFF: Yes, and each of the 24 branches have their own -- 25 14681 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: When you are StenoTran 3073 1 sending that in, if you could send any information on 2 the Equal Opportunities Committee, that would be 3 helpful too. 4 14682 MR. GROMOFF: Certainly. 5 14683 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Do you have 6 any other specifics to add to the recommendation on 7 page 21 regarding the study on gender portrayal that we 8 have talked about today so far? 9 14684 MR. GROMOFF: No. 10 14685 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. 11 14686 Lastly, let me come back to the 12 central issue of your oral presentation, which is the 13 7/7 and 7 to 11, but also the issue of identifiably 14 Canadian, because I am hearing two things: on the one 15 hand, that your actors should be able to act and be 16 part of everything, whether it is identifiably Canadian 17 or not, but you also want to have -- maybe I am not 18 hearing different things -- that in order for it to be 19 identifiably Canadian, the lead performer should count 20 for two points, and that it is that more than the theme 21 or the locale that would make it identifiably Canadian. 22 14687 MR. GROMOFF: It is a combination of 23 all of it and the points system. 24 14688 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Explain it to 25 me once again in summary. StenoTran 3074 1 14689 MR. NEIL: We reject the ideas, some 2 of which have been put before you, including by the 3 Canadian Labour Congress, of which we are an affiliate, 4 that you ought to begin to look at content or thematic 5 presentation. We believe that the way you determine 6 what is and is not Canadian content ought to continue 7 to be the points system, which identifies the people 8 who are putting that program together, the creative 9 elements of the program. That has to remain the 10 fundamental basis of determining what is and isn't 11 Canadian content. 12 14690 We believe further that those who 13 want that more distinctive presence, to those people, 14 one of the ways that we believe we can bring that more 15 distinctive on-screen presence is by altering that 16 points system to increase the number of points awarded 17 for performer categories from the existing two points 18 to a possible four points, which would then increase 19 the total number of points available to a producer from 20 10 points to 12 points. Those performer points would 21 be given on the basis of two for the lead performer and 22 one for the second lead, one for the third lead 23 performer. 24 14691 The minimum requirement for a 25 producer -- at the moment they need to have one StenoTran 3075 1 performer point -- would move to having at least two 2 performer points. So either the lead is Canadian or 3 both the second and third leads would be Canadian as an 4 absolute minimum. 5 14692 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, that 6 makes sense, but the flip side of the argument is that 7 part of the reason for this whole drive to have 8 Canadian content and identifiably or distinctively 9 Canadian, whatever term you want to use, is this 10 business about telling our stories to each other, and 11 if that story is merely acted out in Vancouver and it 12 is pretend New York, or if it is in a sci-fi movie that 13 could be anywhere, the argument goes you are not doing 14 anything to tell stories to each other or enrich our 15 culture or our understanding of each other. 16 14693 What you are putting forward is a 17 model that is of prime interest to your members in 18 order to get work; I am putting that quite crassly, 19 but -- how do you respond to that? 20 14694 MR. GROMOFF: What we are talking 21 about when we talk about that topic is that a writer 22 can write about anything they like, but they will bring 23 their Canadianism to that. The actor will also bring 24 their Canadianism to it. The director will bring their 25 Canadianism to it. Whether it is a Canadian story StenoTran 3076 1 about wheat or not, or whether it is even an American 2 story, they will still add their Canadianism to it, 3 their perspective of that. That's what we are saying, 4 we shouldn't narrow it down so that our members -- the 5 Writers' Guild, the Directors' Guild are only directing 6 writing and acting in the narrow Canadian story. 7 14695 Canadian content is us, all of us; 8 all the creative artists is the Canadian content. 9 14696 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: But if it is 10 Vancouver pretending to be Los Angeles, where is that 11 Canadianism coming through, other than the fact that we 12 pretend to be Americans? 13 14697 MR. GROMOFF: It is the way it is 14 directed. It doesn't matter that you see Vancouver and 15 it says, "New York", it is the perspective the director 16 or the writer or the actor has on that situation. 17 14698 MR. NEIL: I believe last week the 18 Writers' Guild of Canada appeared before you, and I 19 suspect you had at least part of this discussion with 20 them. We have indeed also had part of this discussion 21 with them. 22 14699 It is very important to distinguish 23 between those programs which truly are Canadian 24 originated and developed and written and those programs 25 which are not. Some of those programs which are not StenoTran 3077 1 can still qualify as Canadian under the existing points 2 system. 3 14700 If you want to tackle that question, 4 in our view, you have to tackle it on the basis of who 5 is telling that story. Where is the story idea really 6 coming from? Who is developing it? Who has written 7 the bible for it? Who is the story editor, if it is a 8 series television production? 9 14701 I think if you go past the facade 10 perhaps of what is coming to you at one level and 11 really examine that question, you will find your 12 answer. That's why we don't see the Canadianisms in 13 some of those series that are allegedly Canadian 14 because they are really not. The idea was generated 15 elsewhere, it was developed elsewhere, the bible was 16 written elsewhere, the story editor comes from 17 elsewhere. And a writer might be hired to write a 18 specific script, but the parameters of that writing are 19 so narrow, so focused that they really don't -- they 20 can't bring any Canadianism to it because they have 21 been given all the characters and how they have 22 developed at that point in the series. 23 14702 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So what you 24 are saying is, rather than Canadians pretending to be 25 Americans, you are describing an insidious plot to StenoTran 3078 1 infiltrate the American psyche and interpret Americans 2 to Americans in a Canadian way. 3 14703 MR. GROMOFF: We are already doing 4 that in comedy. 5 14704 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Those are my 6 questions. Thanks very much. 7 14705 Thanks, Madam Chair. 8 14706 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 9 Mr. Gromoff and Mr. Neil. We thank you for your 10 appearance and presentation. 11 14707 MR. GROMOFF: Thank you. 12 14708 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will now take a 13 lunch break and we will resume at 2:00. Nous 14 reprendrons à 2 h 00. 15 --- Recess at / Suspension à 1315 16 --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1405 17 14709 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon. 18 14710 Madam Secretary, would you ask the 19 next participants to present themselves, please. 20 14711 MS SANTERRE: Thank you, Madam Chair. 21 14712 Before I announce the next 22 presentation, for the benefit of the audience, I would 23 like to let people know that Viacom Canada Limited will 24 not be appearing in front of us today. 25 14713 Therefore, I would like to now StenoTran 3079 1 announce the presentation of Rogers Cablesystems 2 Limited. 3 14714 MS DINSMORE: Thank you. 4 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 5 14715 MS DINSMORE: My name is Pam 6 Dinsmore. I am the Vice-President of Regulatory for 7 Rogers Cablesystems. Before beginning I would like to 8 introduce my team. 9 14716 On my left is Robin Mirsky, the 10 Executive Director of both the Rogers Telefund and the 11 Rogers Documentary Fund. These funds play a critical 12 role in the production of high quality Canadian 13 television programs and feature films. Robin also sits 14 on a number of industry boards, including the Canadian 15 Television Fund, the Canadian Film Centre, the Banff 16 Television Festival and the National Screen Institute. 17 14717 On my far right is Colette Watson, 18 the Vice-President of Programming and Public Relations 19 for Rogers Cable. This year both the CRTC and 20 community television celebrate their 30th 21 anniversaries. Colette is responsible for community 22 television as well as other programming issues. She is 23 also the Vice-Chair of Cable in the Classroom. 24 14718 On my right is John Tory, the 25 President of Rogers media. John is filling in for Phil StenoTran 3080 1 Lind who, as you may know, is convalescing at home. 2 14719 In the second row from my left is 3 Michael Allen, Vice-President of Regulatory Affairs for 4 Rogers Communications. Michael is responsible for a 5 broad range of programming and policy matters. 6 14720 To Michael's right is our legal 7 counsel, Robert Buchan, of Johnston & Buchan. 8 14721 Good afternoon, Madam Chair, 9 Commissioners. 10 14722 Rogers is a seasoned cable operator 11 with long-standing ties to the independent production 12 sector. Rogers has been an integral participant in, 13 and contributor to, the Canadian broadcasting system 14 for over three decades. 15 14723 Rogers serves 2.2 million Canadian 16 cable households, and we hear from thousands of 17 television viewers every day about all aspects of our 18 business. We believe our knowledge of our customers' 19 viewing preferences can help us to make a useful 20 contribution to this comprehensive review of Canadian 21 television policies. 22 14724 Rogers also brings to this forum our 23 expertise in producing, funding and promoting Canadian 24 programming. Rogers community television produces more 25 than 15,000 hours of original, local Canadian content StenoTran 3081 1 every year, in both English and French. We operate 27 2 community television studios in British Columbia and 3 Ontario and employ more than 200 full-time people. 4 Over the years, Rogers has trained thousands of 5 community television programming volunteers. 6 14725 Rogers is very proud of our 7 successful, ongoing relationship with Canada's 8 independent producers. Since it began in 1980, the 9 Rogers Telefund has provided approximately $100 million 10 on a revolving fund basis in support of Canadian 11 programming. Our Documentary Fund, which was 12 established to help sustain the great Canadian 13 tradition of documentary filmmaking, has provided 14 almost $3 million in outright grants to nearly 100 15 English and French documentaries in the past three 16 years. 17 14726 Madam Chair, as you noted in your 18 opening remarks, this hearing is about more programs, 19 better quality and increased profitability. Through 20 Rogers community television, and our ongoing 21 involvement with Canada's independent producers, we can 22 continue to help the CRTC and the system achieve these 23 goals. 24 14727 We would now like to show you a brief 25 video which shows more eloquently than words could the StenoTran 3082 1 contribution that Rogers makes to the production of 2 high quality Canadian programming. 3 --- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo 4 1410 5 14728 MS DINSMORE: Rogers would like to 6 take this opportunity to address two specific issues 7 that have been raised by several intervenors - namely; 8 the contribution of US programming services; and the 9 CAB's proposal regarding 4+1 signal sourcing. 10 14729 Since their introduction into Canada 11 in 1984, US cable channels have served the policy 12 objectives of the Commission by contributing to the 13 development of a stronger Canadian broadcasting system. 14 14730 As linkage partners, they make a 15 substantial dollar contribution to Canadian programming 16 through the discretionary tier revenues that they, 17 along with the Canadian specialty services, help to 18 generate. 19 14731 In 1998, for example, Rogers and its 20 customers will directly contribute more than $42 21 million to the financing of Canadian programming 22 through the 5 per cent of revenue mechanism. 23 14732 Equally important, the US cable 24 channels complement the Canadian broadcasting system by 25 providing diversity in the program choices available to StenoTran 3083 1 Canadians. The CAB and the SPTV have recognized this 2 in this proceeding. Both have acknowledged that the US 3 services provide variety and choice to Canadian 4 viewers, and that their marketing appeal has helped 5 increase the penetration of Canadian services. We are 6 concerned that any attempt to increase the financial 7 contribution that US services already make to the 8 system would, in reality, mean increasing our cost of 9 doing business. 10 14733 In addition, US cable services 11 provide cable companies with a minimum of two minutes 12 per hour of advertising which is used for the promotion 13 of Canadian programming and distribution services. Via 14 these local avails, more than 1600 hours per year are 15 made available to Canadian cable channels to promote 16 their own programming. These local avails are valued 17 at over $4 million in commercial airtime. 18 14734 Rogers opposes any move to change the 19 existing policies regarding the sourcing of US local 20 off air signals, such as the proposal outlined by the 21 CAB. Rogers believes that all conventional 22 broadcasting signals that are available to television 23 viewers over-the-air in a given market should be 24 distributed to cable customers. 25 14735 The CAB would like us to source the StenoTran 3084 1 "4+1" package of US signals from distant geographical 2 markets. In Toronto, for example, this would mean 3 sourcing the signals from Philadelphia or New York, 4 rather than from Buffalo. 5 14736 To be frank, this just doesn't make 6 sense - logically, practically, economically or from a 7 customer friendliness perspective. 8 14737 The signals of the Buffalo network 9 affiliates have been carried by Rogers in Toronto since 10 the introduction of cable. Our subscribers share 11 regional concerns with Buffalo residents and enjoy 12 Buffalo sports programming and weather forecasts. They 13 would be outraged if they lost this familiar 14 programming. 15 14738 Sourcing the "4+1" package from 16 distant markets would also add significantly to our 17 costs - an increase of approximately $2.2 million a 18 year in distribution costs and additional copyright 19 royalties - or $1 a subscriber per year, at a time when 20 we are poised to make massive investments in the 21 infrastructure and equipment needed to roll out digital 22 services. 23 14739 Thank you for allowing us the 24 opportunity to contribute to this landmark review. We 25 would now be happy to answer your questions. StenoTran 3085 1 14740 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms. 2 Dinsmore, and Ladies and Gentlemen. 3 14741 I will not have many questions. You 4 have documented very well the contributions of Rogers 5 to the programming world and, of course, that was 6 highlighted very effectively today in your video. 7 14742 The second area that we don't need to 8 ask questions about is the transition to a digital 9 world. You yourself at page 19 of your written brief 10 say that you look forward to setting out more details 11 of your digital plans in the future and, moreover, you 12 endorse and believe that the CCTA discussion of the 13 issue was fully reflective of the circumstances related 14 to the introduction of digitization, and, therefore, 15 you don't need to add anything to it. 16 14743 After the long discussions we had on 17 Saturday about the CCTA plans, which you acknowledge 18 are yours as well, we will not have questions on that 19 area, but I do have a few questions on areas other than 20 those. 21 14744 I am puzzled. You may have heard me 22 ask the same questions to Shaw. I am puzzled at page 23 seven of your written presentation in discussing the 24 Community Channel the use of providing local coverage 25 and the repeated use of the words "television station" StenoTran 3086 1 and "station" to identify or characterize the Community 2 Channel. 3 14745 Why is that normally those terms 4 referred to broadcasting undertaking? Programming 5 undertaking? 6 14746 MS DINSMORE: I take your question. 7 I would like to ask Colette Watson, who is responsible 8 for the Community Channel or community television 9 programming, to answer that question. 10 14747 MS WATSON: Thank you, Pam. 11 Commissioner Wylie, three years ago, we undertook an 12 overhaul of the Community Channel and it occupies six 13 megahertz of spectrum on our offering, just like any 14 other channel does. 15 14748 We needed to get people to recognize 16 that it is a television service, just like any other 17 tenant, if you will, of the six megahertz from two to 18 78. It's kind of a cultural thing. We wanted to get 19 people to tune in. 20 14749 Essentially, the content is relevant 21 and interesting and we wanted to promote it. We just 22 wanted more people to watch it. 23 14750 So, by not bucking the trend, if you 24 will. By calling it what everyone else calls all the 25 other channels, we decided to call ourselves community StenoTran 3087 1 television. Because that's what it is. It's output on 2 television. 3 14751 THE CHAIRPERSON: I'm not intrigued 4 by community television. I'm intrigued by station. 5 You may or may not be aware that Shaw went further and 6 said, well, in examining what television broadcasters 7 do in the market, in any market, the Commission and 8 what the Commission should require from them, that it 9 should put into the balance what the cable company does 10 on the Community Channel, I gather, as a substitute for 11 less local programming on television stations. 12 14752 I am wondering if your use of that 13 word implies the same thing. That it is a substitute 14 or a replacement for the local programming on a 15 television station or whether it's just -- Community 16 Television, I don't have a problem with. It's station 17 I find intriguing. 18 14753 And, as we discussed with Shaw, it 19 raises all kinds of questions as to whether the 20 Commission ought to look at the responsibilities of the 21 television station and the demands of the public for 22 local programming, which have taken some profile in 23 this process, especially when we went to various cities 24 in June to hear the public, whether or not you take the 25 same view, that it can be a replacement. And then what StenoTran 3088 1 would that lead to, considering that unlike television 2 stations, there's no regulation or there is some but 3 there's no logs. There's no advertising allowed and so 4 on. 5 14754 Should we look at this as a budding 6 television station or is that just a word you have used 7 to describe it? But that it's still, in your view, a 8 community channel in the sense that it was intended to 9 be. 10 14755 MS WATSON: Well, in the sense that 11 it was intended to be in the 1968 policy has evolved in 12 the 1991 policy and it has evolved in terms of where we 13 sit in a competitive environment. 14 14756 We call our installations, if you 15 will, the facilities where we have studios and cameras 16 and edit suites and trucks. We call them stations 17 because that's what they are. 18 14757 They're also a training ground for 19 the next generation of independent producers in this 20 country and so it allows us a bit of credibility, if 21 you will, in terms of being recognized for the output 22 that we provide the system. 23 14758 Now we do operate within a regulated 24 framework and we do have to maintain logs and we 25 produce 15,000 hours of original Canadian content every StenoTran 3089 1 year. 2 14759 And so we are looking for a little 3 credibility for those hours. We have given birth to 4 some of Canada's current stars. Tom Green never would 5 have had a chance. Tom Green came to us four years ago 6 when no one else would look at him. He has had a 7 series, after two years with us, he's had a series on 8 CBC. He's got a series on the Comedy Channel now and 9 he's doing a feature film. He couldn't get a break 10 before. 11 14760 So the fact that we call ourselves 12 television stations. We call the bricks and mortar 13 where we house the studio and lights and monitors a 14 station doesn't change what our philosophy is. And our 15 philosophy is to bring local community-based stories to 16 the communities which we serve. If it's not local and 17 it's not relevant, it's not on our schedule. 18 14761 Now local is not mutually exclusive 19 to relevant. It can be locally relevant or it can be 20 relevant. We had some call-ins last year on locating 21 casinos. Well, we put it on all our stations because 22 Ottawa was looking at putting a casino in. Hamilton 23 and Niagara Falls. And so although the show was 24 produced in Toronto, it was locally relevant to all of 25 those markets. So there are two definitions of what's StenoTran 3090 1 locally relevant. Well, you can't get more locally 2 relevant than what goes on at your city council. You 3 can't get more locally relevant than what happens with 4 your school boards and what's happening with the 5 ratepayer's association and just what's happening 6 generally in your community on a daily basis. 7 14762 THE CHAIRPERSON: By "logs," I meant 8 the amount of news as opposed to some other programming 9 that there isn't the same -- I know the Community 10 Channel has some regulations. 11 14763 Let me be more precise. I have no 12 problem with you telling us how well put together the 13 Community Channel is and the contribution it's making, 14 but we are looking now at how to redefine or reorganize 15 perhaps some aspects of the policies that govern 16 over-the-air television. 17 14764 So my precise question is: Is it 18 your view as it appeared to have been Shaw's, that the 19 Community Channel in the regulatory scheme could be 20 seen as a replacement for the local programming efforts 21 of the local television station, which was the aim of 22 my question in the context of this particular hearing 23 and because we have had this discussion with Shaw where 24 they actually went the extra step. 25 14765 So I thought, as a company that's StenoTran 3091 1 involved in community programming, whether you had a 2 comment about that tradeoff, whether that would serve 3 the broadcasting system well. 4 14766 MS WATSON: Let me clarify for you 5 the difference between the direction that Shaw has gone 6 with community television and the direction in which we 7 have gone. 8 14767 Shaw has very different output in 9 terms of community television. They have, I guess, a 10 service that provides community information, billboard 11 and it's kind of a multi-layered screen, if you will. 12 14768 At Rogers, we chose to maintain what 13 we call a more traditional community television 14 approach, which is to create and produce locally 15 relevant programming. Essentially, we sought to 16 improve the packaging in which it was delivered over 17 the course of the 20 years. 18 14769 Now we are looking to fill the void 19 where local broadcasters have pulled away. This isn't 20 a recent phenomenon. I remember seven years ago, I 21 guess it was, five years ago maybe, when the Ottawa 22 Links came to town and I phoned the general manager at 23 the local CTV affiliate and the general manager at the 24 CBC affiliate and the general manager in Hull to see, 25 are you guys going to cover the Ottawa Links games? Do StenoTran 3092 1 you have a problem if I go in and cover the games? 2 There was no money to be made, so they chose not to. 3 14770 Now it became kind of pivotal 4 programming for us locally. It was a huge rating 5 success. It was huge in terms of community involvement 6 and it was a great learning experience for our 7 volunteers and staff. They loved it. We got some 8 training from RDS to go produce it. It was a great 9 project altogether. 10 14771 But that was an indication of where 11 the local broadcaster was pulling away. Either it 12 wasn't profitable or their network wouldn't allow them 13 the amount of time. Then we were able to step in. 14 14772 Local elections is another instance. 15 For 20, 30 years, local broadcasters have not been able 16 to give you the dedicated blow-by-blow account of local 17 elections on a regular basis. Four years ago, we had 18 this co-venture plan with CJOH locally where we would 19 use their team and they would supplement our equipment 20 and they would use our channel, if you will, to break 21 away from the network and then go to kind of more 22 in-depth coverage for the local ridings here. That 23 fell through because their network wouldn't allow them 24 to, wouldn't give them the extra minutes required. 25 14773 If I go as recently as January of StenoTran 3093 1 this year, no other network in this market could go 24 2 hours a day with ice storm coverage. So we were able 3 to do that. 4 14774 Each and every one of the local 5 broadcasters we spoke to would love to do it but they 6 can't, for whatever constraints they have, be it 7 financial or scheduling, or whatever their network 8 agreements permit. 9 14775 So, yeah, we do want to step in and 10 fill the void. However, the funding mechanism that's 11 provided to us doesn't allow us to say, well, we're now 12 a local broadcaster. So we'd have to re-evaluate in 13 terms of another probably proceeding in terms of how 14 that migration would occur. If it's something the 15 Commission would see feasible, then you would have to 16 determine financially what the migration implications 17 would be to go from being local community television to 18 local over-the-air broadcasters. 19 14776 MR. TORY: May I add just add one 20 point to that, Madam Chair? 21 14777 I think that we often tend to focus 22 in looking at these kinds of things, too, on some of 23 the larger cities and we're talking here about the 24 question of whether or not we are taking up a role 25 someone else once played and so on. StenoTran 3094 1 14778 But, in many communities where we 2 have television stations or community television 3 channels, we are fulfilling a role that a conventional 4 broadcaster never fulfilled because there can't be 5 conventional over-the-air television stations 6 everywhere. 7 14779 So that if you look around in some of 8 the cities where we have responsibility for cable 9 service and operate these community television 10 services, they represent the only community television 11 service or community television station that many of 12 those communities have, whether it's a sort of 13 Newmarket, north of Toronto, or other communities we 14 could name around the country. Owen Sound, Woodstock, 15 these are the places where local news is carried, the 16 city council is carried and so on, and I guess we will 17 always be there regardless of whether there's ever 18 conventional television station in those markets, which 19 in many cases it's doubtful there would be. We will 20 always be there fulfilling this role, which I think 21 gives these people a television station they can call 22 their own. 23 14780 THE CHAIRPERSON: My curiosity in the 24 policy context, of course, is that there has been, if 25 anything, a change vis-a-vis the policy in community StenoTran 3095 1 programming in requiring cable operators to give a 2 certain amount of funds for the production of Canadian 3 programming and, of course, it had been the hope of the 4 Commission that in most communities the cable operator 5 would continue to serve the public in the manner Ms. 6 Watson has outlined. 7 14781 But, in a broader policy context, I 8 was interested in hearing you speak of the difficulty 9 of relying on the community channel as opposed to 10 requiring local programming because it can depend on 11 the city, on the cable company, on the amount, extent 12 of money they want to put into the community channel. 13 14782 So I found Shaw's comment interesting 14 in that regard and yours were not dissimilar, it seemed 15 to me, by calling yourself a station. So it opens up a 16 number of questions. 17 14783 You speak of local avails as one of 18 your contributions. I'm curious to see whether you 19 treat those the same way that Shaw has explained to us. 20 You mention also in your oral presentation the amount 21 of commercial airtime, et cetera, provided. 22 14784 Do you get some revenue back from the 23 services to whom you make avails available? 24 14785 MS. DINSMORE: I'll ask Colette again 25 to answer that question. StenoTran 3096 1 14786 MS WATSON: At this moment, no, we do 2 not charge anyone for local avails, but we are 3 examining the possibility of a rate structure on a cost 4 recovery basis. 5 14787 THE CHAIRPERSON: Similar to the one 6 Shaw was outlining which was amortizing the cost of the 7 equipment and the administration. But, at the moment, 8 you're not. 9 14788 MS WATSON: That's correct. 10 14789 THE CHAIRPERSON: Charging. I think 11 they said $8 a spot or something. I'm not quite sure 12 of the amount. 13 14790 MS WATSON: $8 an occasion, yeah. 14 14791 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it was low and 15 was intended to simply recover the costs. 16 14792 In your written presentation, you 17 speak of the lift that you US services, at page 12, 18 that US services have given to the penetration of 19 Canadian services in Canada by packaging them with 20 Canadian services. As you know, the point has been 21 made by other intervenors that this is no longer true 22 when you look at BBMs. Do you have any comments about 23 that? Have you seen those numbers based on BBMs and 24 the argument that this is no longer true now? 25 14793 MS DINSMORE: Madam Commissioner, we StenoTran 3097 1 have heard those arguments and I would ask Michael 2 Allen to address your question. 3 14794 MR. ALLEN: We're greatly assisted in 4 this matter by the Globe and Mail this morning which 5 published some of these view numbers for us. I would 6 like to just maybe comment on a couple of them, 7 particularly as they relate to the tier that has just 8 been launched, Tier 3. 9 1430 10 14795 I think that when we look at the two 11 previous tiers just by way of background, the tier one, 12 the one that is the most highly penetrated today, was 13 launched on a negative option basis many, many years 14 ago and has enjoyed high penetration ever since. 15 14796 The second tier that was launched in 16 late 1994 or early 1995 began its life as a negative 17 option launch. You may recall there was some outrage 18 on behalf of consumes and it was switched in mid-course 19 of the launch from a negative option basis to a 20 positive option basis. As a result, the penetration of 21 that tier did not rise as rapidly and, in fact, we 22 began the early months of 1995 with a penetration in 23 the high 50s, 55 to 58 per cent. 24 14797 Just last month, the penetration of 25 that tier passed 70 per cent. So we have spent the StenoTran 3098 1 last three years trying to increase that tier of 2 services by 12 percentage points. That tier is 3 comprised of five or six services, including Bravo, 4 Discovery, Showcase, Life and Country Music Television, 5 all of them excellent services and it has one American 6 service, Headline News, also a high-quality service. 7 14798 We were nervous last year, we being 8 the cable television industry grouped together as 9 VisionCom, about how to launch a tier in a purely 10 positive option basis, particularly in view of the fact 11 that we spent three years trying to gain 12 percentage 12 points. We knew, as you have heard from Richard 13 Stursberg on Saturday, that the penetration point at 14 which both the services and the cable companies sort of 15 break even is closer to 70 than it is to 50. So, we 16 were very keen to put together a package of attractive 17 services, which we were able to do. I would like to 18 give you some of the numbers. 19 14799 That tier in aggregate has been 20 attracting between about a 12 and 15 per cent share of 21 all viewing in cable households since its launch and 22 that is comprised of a number of services. There are 23 some very excellent performances being put in, if you 24 can call them that, by services such as Teletoon, 25 Family Channel, History, all of whom are routinely StenoTran 3099 1 above a 1 per cent share and if I am omitting anyone 2 here I do apologize. There is an American service in 3 there, WTBS, that is running on the basis of about a 4 2.5 to 4 share, depending on which week you look at it. 5 It was higher just before Christmas last year when it 6 ran a lot of James Bond movies. 7 14800 These services tend towards a more 8 general interest audience, compared to some of the 9 other services in the tier and if I could use that 10 analogy of the magazine rack which we may have heard 11 before. You can look at the magazine rack and see 12 magazines such as Macleans, Time, Canadian Living, that 13 are general interest magazines and then you see others, 14 such as Photo Life, Discover, Flying, Skin Diver, 15 whatever your interest might be, that are focused on 16 the much more narrow audience, but they are quite 17 viable and they have a very relevant position as far as 18 their audience base is concerned. 19 14801 I think if we were to look in this 20 tier and look at some of those sorts of services, we 21 might find something like Food, for example, which is 22 drawing about a .3 per cent share. In a similar vein, 23 Home and Garden Television, a Canadian service also 24 drawing .3. Outdoor Life, another Canadian service 25 which is oriented more towards activities out of doors, StenoTran 3100 1 sports that are more of a recreational manner, .3 per 2 cent again. Speed Vision, which breaks people into two 3 camps, those who love it and those who don't, .2, .3 4 per cent. These are very narrowly focused services, 5 but they are very important to the people who watch 6 them. 7 14802 We tried to put together a package -- 8 one service I think that touches many people, but 9 doesn't generate a huge share at any particular point 10 is The Golf Channel. Many people, as you may know, are 11 playing golf. I am reminded by Mr. Buchan to my right 12 here who has just been away doing some of this last 13 week. 14 14803 I think the important here is we 15 would try to put together a package and we have some 16 very strong services in there. Family Channel was very 17 helpful to the success of that tier in our view. WTBS, 18 as a general interest American service is very happy, 19 and those other services, whether they are delivering 20 small audiences or large audiences, they are delivering 21 audiences. We think the entire package as a whole is 22 what is important. We don't think it would have been 23 quite as successful if we had launched with perhaps 24 only four or six services. We were nervous about doing 25 that on the basis of the experience with tier two. StenoTran 3101 1 14804 We were gratified by the assistance 2 that was brought to bear by the services with respect 3 to marketing the service. As Richard has pointed out 4 to you on Saturday, there was lots of activity done by 5 the cable company. Even today people are still 6 knocking on doors to get the subscribers to the tier. 7 I think it is fair to say that there are not many 8 consumer products that in the course of less than one 9 year can claim to have achieved 50 per cent market 10 penetration on a positive option basis. We think that 11 is due to three things: Marketing, as I have 12 indicated, very attractive services, both Canadian and 13 U.S., and it is not so much a matter as to whether or 14 not they all bring in big audiences at once. They 15 bring in different segments of the audience, many of 16 which are very loyal. 17 14805 THE CHAIRPERSON: So the answer is 18 yes, it's still a lift in that it would be more 19 difficult to have sold a smaller tier that wouldn't 20 have been one-to-one Canadian than it is to sell it as 21 it is and that the world has not changed for tier 22 three, from what it was for tier one. The importance 23 of the American component in there, in your view, is 24 just as great to reach -- and you could conclude that 25 the penetration would have been less without them? StenoTran 3102 1 14806 MR. ALLEN: Yes, that's right. We 2 think it is just as important. 3 14807 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 4 14808 These are my questions. 5 14809 Commissioner Cardozo. 6 14810 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam 7 Chair. 8 14811 I too have a few short questions. 9 First, in terms of your local programming, community 10 programming, you mentioned 1,500 hours a year. I would 11 take it that's across the system. I am wondering if 12 you have a formula more or less across different cities 13 across the country. You have mentioned covering city 14 hall. Is there sort of a roster of things you do, such 15 as city hall, sports groups, sports? 16 14812 MS WATSON: We operate all our 17 channels with a couple of anchors plugged in. 18 Depending on the market, it is either weekly or daily 19 and in markets that have 30,000 subscribers or more we 20 have a daily program called "Daytime," which is kind of 21 our local access program, if you will. It operates 22 Monday to Friday. It airs three times a day and we 23 just promote what is going on in the community, get 24 people on, do a phone-in component, that sort of thing. 25 14813 Local sports, local amateur sports is StenoTran 3103 1 another anchor and then, of course, city hall coverage 2 is another very important piece of our programming mix. 3 14814 The other I guess four hours, 4 depending on the market, depending on the market size, 5 the four hours of prime time are programmed locally by 6 the local manager, whether it is phone-ins on what is 7 happening in the market. In Vancouver we have the teen 8 program "Esteeza" and so they find that quite 9 interesting. So, the teens come in. They do their 10 weekly show and they talk about what is important to 11 them and they produce it. 12 14815 In Newmarket we do a weekly show with 13 the hospital. The hospital administrator comes on and 14 talks about changes by the Restructuring Commission, 15 changes to the Hospital Fundraising Board, promotes 16 different departments in the hospital, has a doctor on 17 every week to talk about what is going on there. They 18 also do a weekly program with the Hurricanes, which is 19 a Junior B hockey team. 20 14816 In Owen Sound there is a call-in show 21 on what is going on in Georgian Bay. In Kitchener they 22 have "Daily" plugged in, so they try and get all of the 23 local Kitchener news that goes on and the list goes on. 24 14817 In Ottawa we have "Insight." IN 25 Toronto we have "Toronto Living." It depends on what StenoTran 3104 1 is important in the community. You can't kind of 2 cookie cutter local programming because every community 3 has its own distinctiveness. 4 14818 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 5 14819 Are you of the view that most people 6 or most groups, whatever kind of community group or 7 non-profit group or a for profit group, like -- I was 8 going to say a Chamber of Commerce, but a Chamber of 9 Commerce isn't itself a for profit group, but of the 10 groups in society who want access to programming is it 11 your view that most of them are getting on at some 12 point? 13 14820 MS WATSON: Absolutely. In the 14 30-year history of community television there have 15 always been groups who haven't made it on, either for 16 resource reasons or for programming content reasons. 17 It varied over the 30 years. That doesn't change 18 today. 19 14821 What has changed in our format 20 delivery is we have gone from monthly shows to 21 bi-weekly shows, to daily shows. So, the amount of 22 community groups we can bring into community television 23 has grown exponentially over the last few years. 24 14822 In the old traditional way of monthly 25 shows we probably get maybe 2,000 groups to come StenoTran 3105 1 through. This year alone, up until the end of August, 2 we have had at least 15,000 come in on "Plugged In" and 3 another 2,000 come in on "Daytime." So, by the end of 4 the year we will have tripled the output and the 5 serving of these communities. 6 14823 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 7 14824 Now, on average how much of first-run 8 programming do you have in a day? 9 14825 MS WATSON: It depends on the market. 10 So, in the large markets like Ottawa, Toronto, 11 Vancouver, it is probably six to eight. In the medium 12 markets, like Kitchener, London, it is probably five to 13 six and in the smaller markets it is around two. 14 Collingwood, Georgian Bay would around two to three. 15 14826 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And a lot of 16 this gets played a second time at least? 17 14827 MS WATSON: Yes. "Daytime," for 18 example gets played two and three times a day. 19 14828 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: As 20 Commissioner Wylie mentioned, the issue of local 21 programming has been raised with us several times. Do 22 you think we need to do anything to increase or any 23 incentives that we could be providing or should be 24 providing, so that the viewer gets more local 25 programming? StenoTran 3106 1 14829 MS WATSON: Of course, we are proud 2 of the record we have in terms of proving local stories 3 on our community channel. We are also pushing the 4 envelope with respect to working with independent 5 producers. We actually will provide some funding for 6 local documentaries, for local projects. 7 14830 I am reminded of the "Get a Life" 8 series that we produced with Sound Venture Production 9 here in Ottawa. It is a really interesting series for 10 teens on how to get a job, how to go to a job 11 interview, what kind of neat careers are out there and 12 interviewing people who have the careers. So, there's 13 a 13-part series in French and in English that we 14 financed both in cash and in facilities and in support. 15 14831 Sound Venture has now sold that 16 series to TVO and TFO, so that's quite a successful 17 project for the independent producer, as well as for 18 community television. 19 14832 So, we are proud of the fact that we 20 take risks and we do provide local expression in all of 21 the communities we serve. 22 14833 We have some ideas and our people 23 have a lot of ideas, as well as what the incentives 24 could be. We are looking forward to working with CCTA 25 in providing a package of those ideas to the StenoTran 3107 1 Commission. 2 14834 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In time for 3 the BDU regulations next year? 4 14835 MS WATSON: Yes. 5 14836 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 6 14837 So, if you were in a sense filling 7 the gap of what many people think is a reduction in 8 local programming by the other stations, the 9 broadcasters, is that an okay situation or should we be 10 getting them to do more -- getting the broadcasters to 11 do more local programming? 12 14838 MS WATSON: I guess that would be 13 something the Commission would have to evaluate in 14 terms of how it wants the system to be organized. 15 14839 We are happy to play the role. We 16 are proud of the role we play and we think we are quite 17 good at it. So, if there is a bigger role for us to 18 play, we would love to be part of that discussion. 19 14840 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. I 20 am not getting an answer, but that's okay. 21 14841 MR. TORY: I won't help with that 22 either, I am afraid, Commissioner. I will say that 23 there are other instances in which we have also seen I 24 guess both an opportunity and a responsibility to do 25 some other things in the cause of trying to help give StenoTran 3108 1 more people an opportunity to be on television locally, 2 and that includes, for example, where the need 3 warranted and where it was appropriate, a 4 multi-cultural service in Vancouver. Of course, we are 5 very proud of what we do -- I think we are probably the 6 largest producer of multilingual television in the 7 country through our good fortune in owning CFMT. 8 14842 So that I think we certainly view 9 this kind of thing as an opportunity, as well as a 10 responsibility for us and have tried to sort of seek 11 out those opportunities where we can find the resources 12 to carry them out because we think it is so important, 13 the local -- having a station that people can call 14 their own, as I said earlier. 15 14843 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: You raised 16 CFMT. Let me ask you, and I noticed you haven't 17 mentioned it in your brief, but that is to a large 18 extent the matter of a future proceeding under a review 19 of what we call the ethnic broadcasting policy. But I 20 wonder if you could just answer this. I asked CJNT, 21 your counterpart in a sense in Montreal, about the 22 issue of reflection of diversity in the English and 23 French language broadcasters. I am not sure whether it 24 was totally serious or partly, or partly flippant, but 25 I asked her whether more reflection of diversity in the StenoTran 3109 1 other English and French networks was something she was 2 interested in seeing or not. Her response was, "Well, 3 if they do too much, there won't be enough left for 4 me." 5 14844 I am not talking here about 6 multilingual stuff, but in everything you see, the 7 "Traders," the news and everything else, do you see it 8 worthwhile that we address the issue of reflecting 9 Canadian diversity in the other broadcasters? 10 14845 MR. TORY: I would have said, 11 Commissioner, that, yes, it is worthwhile. I haven't 12 spent as much time in this room as others in the 13 regulatory realm, but I think you have addressed that 14 in the past in various ways. I would say of the 15 broadcasters, the conventional broadcasters, they have 16 been making a very real effort, which I think is a 17 noticeable effort to address the issue, whether it is 18 in entertainment programming or news programming or 19 other kinds of programming. 20 14846 So, I think in addition to what we do 21 and what Ms Griffiths would do in Montreal that is a 22 bit different in terms of being multilingual and having 23 a different sort of mandate, that the conventional 24 broadcasters in English and I can't speak as well to 25 the French, but in English certainly have been making a StenoTran 3110 1 real effort to better represent the diversity of the 2 Canadian community in their day-to-day work. 3 14847 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 4 14848 One of the programs that I noticed 5 was on last night and I have seen it before is one of 6 the community programs called "Ten Per Cent QTV." I 7 ask you this in light of a submission or a witness that 8 is going to be on later on this week I believe, EGALE, 9 which addresses gay and lesbian issues. 10 14849 It seems to me that this is probably 11 one of the only programs that does address gay and 12 lesbian issues, sort of by and about gay and lesbian 13 people. I am wondering how long the program has been 14 on and what kind of feedback you have had to it. 15 14850 MS WATSON: It is not the only one. 16 We have a program called "Outlook" as well. "Cable 10 17 per cent" has been on in various -- it's called "QTV" 18 now and has been on for probably 12 years. It has 19 grown from being a Toronto program to a GTA program to 20 now an Ontario program. 21 14851 It is quite an interesting, if you 22 will, third-party association. They have their own 23 executive producer, their own production crew and they 24 use our Lakeshore facility in Toronto, the one that is 25 on Lakeshore Drive, so they use our equipment, but StenoTran 3111 1 everything else they just go out and do on their own 2 and they hand us a tape every week. 3 14852 They used to be on monthly. When we 4 changed our format to go from monthly to weekly they 5 had an hour a month. We asked them to produce a half 6 hour a week at that time and that was three years ago. 7 They were quite nervous about doing that. They thought 8 it was a huge amount of work and they couldn't rally 9 around the volunteers. But they gave it a shot. We 10 provided them with some technical support in that 11 transition phase and now they have probably a 30-odd 12 person team working on the weekly program. They are 13 quite proud of it. They are quite -- not territorial, 14 but they are quite insistent that it gets the play that 15 it deserves and the exposure that it deserves. 16 14853 This year they really wanted to go 17 network. So, our dilemma was, well, if we play them in 18 Oshawa or in London is there a London component? Would 19 they ever come to London to produce a show? So, after 20 working through that with them, they have field 21 stringers and field reporters and they do provide 22 stories from throughout the region. 23 14854 In British Columbia we have the same 24 similar situation and the show is called "Outlook." 25 So, it airs weekly and it is a half hour. StenoTran 3112 1 14855 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And what has 2 the feedback been over the years? 3 14856 MS WATSON: Of course, most of our 4 programming, like specialty services, is niche 5 programming. So, they have a tremendous audience in 6 terms of the group that belongs to it and so it has a 7 wide following and it has good positive feedback. 8 14857 The production quality has improved 9 over the last three years. There was some concern over 10 that, but they have a wide following. 11 14858 Now, we do get complaints about it as 12 well, as you would with any controversial or special 13 interest programming, but nothing out of the ordinary 14 for community television. 15 14859 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: With a program 16 of that kind or any other where you are producing it in 17 one area, how much do you send it out to your stations 18 across the country? 19 14860 MS WATSON: As I indicated, "QTV" is 20 produced for the Ontario stations, so it airs on all 21 the Ontario stations because they have committed to us 22 that they would provide a regional input from Georgian 23 Bay, from southwest Ontario and the Ottawa area. 24 14861 So, we don't send it to B.C. because 25 B.C. has the "Outlook" group and "Outlook" does it and StenoTran 3113 1 so vice versa. 2 14862 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I am just 3 thinking in general of any kinds of programs. Are 4 there any programs that you produce which are sent out 5 across the country? 6 14863 MS WATSON: Yes, there are. This 7 year we produced a series called "Made in Canada." So, 8 we actually paid an independent producer to go out and 9 get interesting stories about Canadians. 10 14864 We took to heart what Keith Spicer 11 said about four years ago after working on the Citizens 12 Forum, that Canadians don't know enough about Canada. 13 So, we decided to fund this series. It is 13 programs, 14 which takes a little bit of history and kind of gives 15 out information about Canada, either trivia 16 information, but historical information as well. 17 Programs like that we air on all our channels. 18 14865 We try and share hockey games, if you 19 will. If there is a team playing in Kitchener that is 20 playing in Ottawa, we try to show it in both markets 21 because it is relevant to both markets. 22 1450 23 14866 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That raises an 24 interesting issue about local programming, because part 25 of local is having the local area portrayed to the StenoTran 3114 1 local people, but the other part of local is taking 2 from one local area to a completely different local 3 area where people would never see much about each other 4 otherwise. 5 14867 MS WATSON: We do a series in the 6 summer called "Daytripping," and it's basically, from 7 the market, where you could drive to in a day for a 8 daytrip. And so when it runs in the summer, it's 9 tremendously popular, because people didn't know that 10 an hour away there was this deer farm, or an hour away 11 the other direction there was Storyland, or something 12 like that. So programs like that we do share in either 13 a geographic region or a province. So we would either 14 confine it to southwest Ontario, to GTA, eastern 15 Ontario, BC, or across the province, depending on how 16 relevant it would be. 17 14868 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Lastly, 18 I just wanted to ask you about the documentary fund. 19 There's a lot of interest in documentaries, Canadians 20 are, I think, increasingly liking documentaries. And 21 you have noted some background about the Rogers 22 documentary fund in your brief and talked about it too. 23 Some people have suggested that there be incentives for 24 documentary airing. What are your views about that? 25 14869 MS DINSMORE: I'd like to direct that StenoTran 3115 1 question to Robin Mirsky. 2 14870 MS MIRSKY: Well, Rogers has 3 certainly seen a need for documentary production in 4 Canada. We started the documentary fund in 1996. 5 We've seen documentary producers where there's a need 6 for additional funding. There are windows for 7 documentaries now where CBC, TV Ontario, Newsworld have 8 created regular timeslots for documentaries. However, 9 there's a gap in funding for docs, so we put the fund 10 on the table. So we certainly have always supported 11 docs, realised how important they are in telling 12 Canadian stories, and I guess we would support 13 incentives to that degree. 14 14871 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, 15 actually, there's one more quick question I have, and 16 that relates to a comment that was made earlier today 17 by a representative from NAC, the National Action 18 Committee on the Status of Women, with regards to CFMT, 19 and I wonder if you could just give us your feedback. 20 14872 She wasn't impressed with Jerry 21 Springer and I don't want to get into individual shows 22 too much, but overall, given the 60-40 split between 23 English and French, what's your thought about how CFMT 24 contributes to the what we see on our televisions? 25 14873 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wonder what cable StenoTran 3116 1 operators have to say about that? I'll be curious to 2 hear. 3 14874 MR. TORY: Well, I think that one has 4 to go back to the model upon which this station, CFMT, 5 operates, I think uniquely, probably, in North America. 6 And in fact, I think there have been times when it's 7 been cited as being the only example of its kind 8 perhaps in the world in terms of the number of language 9 groups and the number of cultural groups that find its 10 way out of the service. And the fact of the matter 11 is -- and I find this experience the same in the 12 publishing business, for which I am responsible -- that 13 people always ask in Canada, why don't you have a 14 magazine for this or for that? And the fact is, this 15 is a small country, and it's a difficult country in 16 which, sometimes, to have something for everybody that 17 they might want. 18 14875 And the same is true in many cases of 19 the groups that are serviced by CFMT, which serves not 20 two, not four, not six, but multiple language groups 21 and cultural groups, dozens of them. And the plain 22 facts are that while those programs are important to 23 those groups, and while we're proud to participate with 24 the independent producers and others who put them on, 25 and while we try to keep that rotation current so that StenoTran 3117 1 the groups that are represented on the station are 2 representative of the community that the station 3 serves, some of those language programs do not pay for 4 themselves, are money losers, as it were. 5 14876 So that I think what we found, and 6 that doesn't take away from, you know, the obligation 7 and indeed the privilege that we have in presenting 8 those programs, but at the end of the day, this is an 9 over the air television station that is not receiving 10 funding from anybody except its advertisers, and at the 11 end of the day what the Commission in its wisdom and 12 working with the original applicants for the licence 13 came up with is, I think, a very ingenious solution 14 that allows us to carry some English language 15 programming, which assists us. And indeed, I should 16 say, some of the language programming as well is also 17 profitable, and it assists us to have those two 18 categories of programming that are profitable, if you 19 want to look at it from an economical point of view, to 20 then be able to afford to put on not just a token 21 effort with regard to the language groups that are 22 smaller, not just some kind of a program to fill the 23 hour, but we believe high quality, first-class Canadian 24 television for those groups in their own language or 25 about their own culture. StenoTran 3118 1 14877 So that we believe it's sort of 2 similar to what has been done in some cases -- back to 3 the Chair's question earlier about packaging things 4 together -- we think that in this case it's not a lift 5 in viewership, but it is, perhaps, a lift to the 6 overall economics of the enterprise, to have the 7 English language programs, whichever programs they may 8 be -- and I'm sure there are programs on every station 9 that are controversial -- that can help to generate the 10 profits that will, in turn, allow us to carry other 11 things on the station that might not find their way 12 onto conventional television otherwise. 13 14878 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Good, thanks, 14 that's the explanation I gave for the 60-40 split -- in 15 less words, though. 16 14879 MR. TORY: I'm a lawyer, so they used 17 to pay me by the word, and so I can't get it out of my 18 system. 19 14880 THE CHAIRPERSON: Considering we have 20 lawyers here, I have another question I wanted to ask 21 you. You stress both in your written presentation, and 22 more particularly in the oral presentation today, the 23 issue of what contribution could be exacted from 24 American services, either via the eligible list, or via 25 requirement that Canadian rights be purchased for StenoTran 3119 1 programming. I'm sure you're aware of the propositions 2 that have been made, some of which would involve the 3 cable system for their deployment or use. You mention 4 mostly the cost of doing business, and that would 5 eventually be passed on to subscribers if such were the 6 case, and I understand your arguments about duplication 7 and double counting of contribution, et cetera. But do 8 you see some more legal problems, as well, of how this 9 could be implemented? Have you thought about that? 10 14881 MS DINSMORE: We've actually taken a 11 fairly good look at this, and, you know, I think it's 12 fair to say that without, you know, putting trade 13 issues on the table, that there would certainly be some 14 issues that would have to be examined prior to either 15 of these proposals coming to the fore. But I think I'd 16 like to call on Bob Buchan to actually answer the 17 question. 18 14882 MR. BUCHAN: Well, Commissioner 19 Wylie, I think your first question, or one of the 20 questions related to US North American rights issue, a 21 separate rights market in Canada and a separate rights 22 market in the United States. And certainly, from 23 Rogers' position, or Roger's perspective, we think it's 24 a commendable objective. It's been an objective of 25 Canadian government policy in the film area for as long StenoTran 3120 1 as I've been around this business, which is quite a 2 long time, and I think we understand where the CFTPA 3 and others are coming from with regard to recognising a 4 distinct market in Canada for Canadian independent 5 programming producers and Canadian rights. 6 14883 The problem that we would foresee 7 from a legal side would be the implementation and the 8 monitoring and the enforcement of a policy of this 9 kind. 10 1501 11 14884 One of the examples, when we were 12 waiting to get on, that we had a discussion about, 13 well, first would be that the Commission would have to 14 assert jurisdiction, in a sense, over the 15 negotiations -- over the arrangements between the 16 independent program producers and the services -- the 17 US cable services that might be -- if they were seeking 18 to acquire North American rights. 19 14885 And if there were an unequivocal 20 obligation to -- on the part of the US cable service 21 that was given either directly to the Commission or 22 through its sponsor that got it on the list, it would 23 be appropriate for the Commission, in a jurisdictional 24 sense, to make that request, presumably. 25 14886 But then, for the Commission to StenoTran 3121 1 monitor and enforce on that obligation might give rise 2 to problems. So one of the issues that we would 3 foresee is if there were a complaint, presumably the 4 Commission would then want to investigate and look into 5 the complaint and find out whether it was justified. 6 That would mean, presumably, bringing the US service -- 7 which isn't directly under its jurisdiction -- before 8 the Commission or through representatives. 9 14887 And even if that were done, and even 10 if there were a violation found or there was a 11 determination made that the North American rights, the 12 separate rights hadn't been recognised, the question 13 would be, what would be the sanction? Would you then 14 just automatically remove that service from the list? 15 And if so, there's a sort of a cost benefit social 16 issue as well, because the viewers who are enjoying 17 that service are going to be, in part, paying the 18 price. 19 14888 But also, just in monetary terms, I 20 suppose, with the example that we thought about, it was 21 if there was a licence fee, a program licence fee of, 22 say, $100,000; and it was negotiated freely between the 23 Canadian independent producer and the US service; and 24 there was a complaint; and there was an investigation 25 or mediation -- we use the mediation-type of method StenoTran 3122 1 that's used with regard to access to complaints; and 2 then there was a renegotiation, and the result came out 3 and the licence fee was $80,000 expressed in terms of 4 the US rights, and $20,000 for the Canadian rights. 5 The consideration paid for the licence fee would still 6 end up being $100,000, and there would be a recognition 7 of separate rights for Canada, but maybe the producer 8 wouldn't end up any further ahead. 9 14889 I'm not saying that that's 10 necessarily the result, or that that's the way that it 11 would go. But it would mean that the Commission would 12 have to get itself into exercising some jurisdiction 13 over entities that currently aren't seen to be directly 14 under its jurisdiction, and over contractual 15 negotiations between independent program producers and 16 US services. 17 14890 But that's a matter for the 18 Commission to decide. These were just some of the 19 considerations that we turned our minds to. 20 14891 I think, with regard to the other 21 issue, and that is the proposal of tithing US cable 22 services, I think it's been suggested by the SPTA that 23 it might be a 30 percent -- or maybe it was the CAB 24 specialty board -- that there might be a 30 percent 25 tithe imposed upon the US cable services that are StenoTran 3123 1 distributed in Canada. Then again, the Commission -- 2 these are discretionary services, and the Commission 3 has never sought to involve itself in the monitoring or 4 the negotiation of the rates that are charged, the 5 affiliation fees that are charged. And to get to the 6 30 percent figure, you'd have to know the 30 percent of 7 what. And that would mean you would have to have 8 access to all of those contracts, and whether that 9 would lead into the area of trade, I have no idea. 10 14892 We have no idea what the reaction of 11 the US authorities would be, but I think there would be 12 some reaction probably on the part of some US cable 13 services, the idea of the CRTC exercising jurisdiction 14 over affiliation agreements that it negotiates with 15 cable distributors in Canada, although clearly the 16 Commission has got plenary and full jurisdiction over 17 its distributors. Is that helpful? 18 14893 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what I 19 was going to get back to, because it's the cable 20 operator appearing before us. 21 14894 My understanding of some of the 22 proposals was that the Commission wouldn't have to 23 exercise direct jurisdiction over any service it 24 doesn't have jurisdiction over. 25 14895 We all, of course, are aware of the StenoTran 3124 1 possibility of trade issues, but my understanding was 2 that some of the suggestions went as far as saying 3 cable operators shall not transport into Canada a 4 service that hasn't purchased Canadian rights for its 5 programming, so that the entire jurisdictional clout 6 would be indirectly via the cable operator, either to 7 levy some contribution or to even not allow services 8 into Canada without proof of Canadian rights having 9 been purchased, which would get around, at least on the 10 face of it, the direct exercise of direct jurisdiction 11 over the services. But I understand the trade issues 12 that are raised by these suggestions, but I'm intrigued 13 by your comments that the Commission would have to 14 exercise direct jurisdiction over services it doesn't 15 have jurisdiction over. We would never attempt such a 16 thing. 17 14896 MR. ALLEN: As a practical matter, 18 I've had the opportunity to negotiate an affiliation 19 agreement or two with an American service, and I think 20 that in the circumstances we've just been considering, 21 what we're really discussing as a practical matter is a 22 cost that would be ultimately in the hands of the cable 23 company, and then to the extent that it's a cost of 24 doing business that must be borne by the revenues of 25 the company -- ultimately the hands of subscribers -- StenoTran 3125 1 for the simple reason that the US service in the 2 circumstances we're considering would seek to recover 3 its cost of doing business in Canada. And if its cost 4 of doing business in Canada suddenly were to increase 5 by 30 percent, it would seek a commensurate increase in 6 the fee payable to it. So what we're really looking at 7 is whether the mechanism were to directly approach the 8 US service or, in the absence of directly dealing with 9 the US service, placing the responsibility upon the 10 cable affiliate to ensure that the payments are made or 11 the rights are purchased. 12 14897 What we're really describing in a 13 practical sense, here, is an obligation on the cable 14 affiliate to either pay the money or see that the 15 rights are maintained. And what we're going to end up 16 with in the end, then, is simply an incremental cost in 17 Canada that will end up, sooner or later, in the 18 general revenues. 19 14898 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will recall I 20 acknowledged that at the beginning. I was just 21 questioning what the legal implications may be at this 22 stage. 23 14899 I understand the idea of the cost of 24 doing business, and we can levy whatever we wish, 25 presumably, indirectly, via the cable operator and then StenoTran 3126 1 it becomes is it too high a cost of doing business that 2 has to be passed on, and makes programming less 3 attractive. But I had zeroed in on the legal 4 implications, and I quite understand the other aspect 5 of it. But we thank you very much -- 6 14900 MR. BUCHAN: Commissioner Wylie, 7 could I just -- 8 14901 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 9 14902 MR. BUCHAN: There's just one other 10 issue related to US services that's jurisdictional, and 11 that relates to local avails. And there's been a 12 proposal on the table that perhaps local avails -- 13 because two minutes of the hour are made available by 14 most US cable services, and since US cable services 15 that are carried in Canada do not sell advertising in 16 Canada, that these avails, if they aren't selling 17 advertising in Canada on the other ten minutes, it's 18 something of a free good, and perhaps there should be a 19 commitment, an obligation by way of conditional 20 licence, presumably, on the cable companies to take all 21 ten or 12 minutes. 22 14903 And I read this proposal, and I've 23 gone through a number of the submissions, and I haven't 24 seen anyone refer to subsection 92 of the Broadcasting 25 Act, which reflects section 50 of the Canada/United StenoTran 3127 1 States Free Trade Agreement, and I think you will 2 remember going back to 1978 when -- 3 14904 THE CHAIRPERSON: I was not even 4 born. 5 14905 MR. BUCHAN: -- Bill C58 was enacted, 6 and when we negotiated with the Americans for the end 7 of commercial deletion and substitution, but the 8 Americans recognised the simultaneous substitution as 9 legitimate exercise of policy by the Commission. And 10 other than the Calgary Edmonton exception that was 11 grandfathered and was grandfathered again in the Free 12 Trade Agreement, there hasn't been any extension of 13 commercial deletion. 14 14906 And that was the third issue in the 15 Canada-US one that I just wanted to make a comment on, 16 thank you. 17 14907 THE CHAIRPERSON: I hope if your 18 client ever comes before us for a rate increase, you 19 don't make such a mistake as to think that I was doing 20 anything other than going to school in those years. 21 14908 MR. TORY: Is it appropriate for us 22 to disassociate ourselves with the comments of counsel 23 in that regard? 24 14909 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why not? 25 1511 StenoTran 3128 1 Why not? I think it's time I pass you to counsel 2 before we get into impeachment here. 3 14910 MR. BLAIS: And Commissioner Wylie 4 stole most of my questions. So I am concerned Mr. Tory 5 may be thinking that I should be paid by the word. So 6 I've come up with another question. 7 14911 An increase, on page six of your oral 8 presentation you mention an increase of approximately 9 $2.2 million a year distribution costs and additional 10 copyright royalties. I appreciate you might not have 11 the numbers at hand, but would it be possible for you 12 to give us the breakdown of how you got to $2.2 13 million? 14 14912 MS DINSMORE: That wouldn't be a 15 problem. It's a combination of our transmission costs 16 and our copyright costs. 17 14913 MR. BLAIS: Could you detail that a 18 bit more in writing? 19 14914 MS DINSMORE: Sure. Sure. 20 14915 MR. BLAIS: Showing the methodology 21 and the assumptions you've gotten. If you could do 22 that by the 15th of October. 23 14916 MS DINSMORE: No problem. 24 14917 MR. BLAIS: We'd appreciate that. 25 Thank you. Those are my questions. StenoTran 3129 1 14918 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much 2 and have a good trip back to Toronto. Except for Ms. 3 Watson. Hopefully, she'll stay here and continue doing 4 a good job on the Community Channel. 5 14919 Before you leave, Mr. Tory, bring our 6 best wishes to Mr. Lynn. 7 14920 MR. TORY: We will do that. Thank 8 you. He's coming along very well and I'm sure he 9 wishes he could be here. But we will do that, and 10 thank you very much. 11 14921 MS WATSON: I'm sure he wishes he 12 could be watching it in Toronto but I understand it's 13 not being carried there. 14 14922 THE CHAIRPERSON: For Phil, we can 15 make special arrangements, though. 16 14923 MS. SANTERRE: Canadian Satellite 17 Communications Inc./Les Communications par satellite 18 canadien inc. 19 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 20 14924 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good Afternoon, 21 Gentlemen. Proceed when you are ready. 22 14925 MR. McEWAN: Madam Chair, 23 Commissioners, Good Afternoon. 24 14926 My name is Duncan McEwan and I am the 25 president and chief executive officer of Canadian StenoTran 3130 1 Satellite Communications Incorporated, or Cancom, as 2 it's commonly known. On my left is Claude Lewis, our 3 executive vice-president and chief operating officer. 4 On my right is Larry Corke, our senior vice-president, 5 broadcasting. To his right is Stephen Whitehead of 6 Johnson & Buchan, our regulatory counsel. 7 14927 This is the first time that Cancom 8 will have appeared before many of you. This is also 9 the first time that I have appeared before the 10 Commission in my capacity as president and chief 11 executive officer of the company. We are very pleased 12 to have the opportunity to meet with you and to share 13 our views on a few issues raised in this very important 14 proceeding. 15 14928 My own background is in the 16 production sector but our appearance here is actually 17 focused on a different but also very vital part of the 18 broadcasting landscape, the distribution sector. The 19 distribution sector of the Canadian Broadcasting system 20 is the critically important means by which Canadian 21 programming is made available to all Canadians. 22 14929 As you know, Cancom is licensed by 23 the Commission as a satellite relay distribution 24 undertaking, or SRDU. We distribute via Canadian 25 satellite a broad range of conventional broadcasting StenoTran 3131 1 services to cable systems and other broadcasting 2 distribution undertakings, allowing BDUs to include 3 these signals in their channel line-ups. The signals 4 we distribute include Canadian English, French and 5 multilingual services and US 4+1 services from four 6 regional corridors. Since Cancom was first licensed in 7 1981, our fundamental purpose and objective has always 8 been the extension of Canadian services to remote and 9 under served areas. 10 14930 The production of Canadian 11 programming does not in any way enrich the fabric of 12 our nation if there is no opportunity for Canadians to 13 view that programming. Cancom's distribution of 14 Canadian television signals by satellite has been the 15 only means by which Canadians living in remote areas 16 have been able to view the same broad range of Canadian 17 programming as their urban counterparts. 18 14931 Making programming available for 19 viewing is the primary contribution which distributors 20 such as Cancom can make to the production of Canadian 21 programming. A secondary contribution is the provision 22 of financial support to the production sector. In this 23 regard, the Commission now requires Cancom and other 24 SRDUs to contribute 5 per cent of their regulated 25 revenues to the creation and presentation of Canadian StenoTran 3132 1 programming. This requirement codifies the critical 2 support which Cancom has provided throughout its 3 history to aboriginal broadcasters and to the extension 4 of francophone services. 5 14932 If distribution undertakings licensed 6 by the Commission are to continue making these 7 contributions on a long-term sustainable basis, all 8 competitors should be subject to comparable regulatory 9 requirements. We have thus argued in another 10 proceeding that terrestrial relay distribution 11 undertakings, TRDUs; that is, undertakings which 12 perform the same function as satellite-based SRDUs, but 13 using land-lines instead of satellites to transmit 14 distant signals, should be subject to conditions and 15 expectations which are similar to those which apply to 16 us, a licensed SRDU. 17 14933 We have also argued in the proceeding 18 commenced by Public Notice, 1998-60, that licensed 19 Canadian SRDUs should not be subject to competition 20 from unlicensed US satellite servers. 21 14934 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. McEwan, we will 22 try to keep other proceedings that are not completed 23 out of the discussion, if possible, because it wouldn't 24 be appropriate to use this forum for discussions of 25 issues that are still outstanding. StenoTran 3133 1 14935 MR. McEWAN: We understand, Madam 2 Chair. In fact, we were conscious of that trying to 3 write this. 4 14936 THE CHAIRPERSON: And, hopefully, in 5 any answers you may give, try to be conscious of the 6 difference. 7 14937 MR. McEWAN: If I may, there is some 8 overlap and we would be happy to be -- 9 14938 THE CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. 10 That's always a difficulty. But the overlap of one may 11 be positive, an overlap to another may be negative. 12 14939 MR. McEWAN: We will happily avoid 13 those issues. 14 14940 All participants in the Canadian 15 Broadcasting system should have an obligation to 16 contribute to the development, exhibition, and 17 promotion of Canadian programs. This includes those 18 participants who are not licensed, but who instead 19 operate pursuant to an exemption order. The 20 contribution need not be financial in nature. It can 21 consist solely of the offering of Canadian choices. 22 But the contribution must, in our view, be equivalent 23 in nature and scope between licensed and exempt or 24 unlicensed participants who are in direct competition 25 with one another. StenoTran 3134 1 14941 MR. CORKE: One of the issues you are 2 addressing in this proceeding concerns the conditions 3 under which foreign services should be authorized for 4 distribution in Canada. Some have suggested that US 5 specialty services and US superstations should be 6 required to make financial contributions to support 7 Canadian programming. Many have noted that such a 8 requirements would be impractical to implement, 9 difficult to enforce, and arguably an additional tax on 10 BDUs which will simply increase prices to the consumer. 11 We agree. 12 14942 US services provide a non-financial 13 contribution as linkage partners with Canadian pay and 14 specialty services. The US services are regarded as 15 tier drivers which contribute to the penetration of 16 Canadian services, and thus support their financial 17 viability. 18 14943 This leads to a paradox in the 19 linkage rules that we would like to address. It seems 20 odd, given that Canadian content should be encouraged 21 wherever possible, that US superstations are eligible 22 for carriage on pay tiers while Canadian distant 23 signals are not. Canadian distant signals contain a 24 diverse range of local, regional and national Canadian 25 programming. Our market research demonstrates StenoTran 3135 1 conclusively that Canadians value and watch Canadian 2 conventional television stations. 3 14944 We continue to believe that Canadian 4 distant signals should be eligible for carriage and 5 linkage in the full discretionary pay tiers of Class 1 6 systems. This would not only expand the reach of 7 Canadian programming, but would be very likely to 8 increase the penetration of the tiers beyond that 9 achieved with US linkage partners only. 10 14945 MR. LEWIS: The Commission stated in 11 Public Notice CRTC 1998-44 that it wished to review 12 with parties in this proceeding, and we quote: 13 "The most effective mechanisms 14 to ensure that Canadians 15 continue to have access to 16 programming reflective of their 17 local, regional and national 18 concerns in the official 19 language of their choice." 20 14946 As a licensed SRDU, Cancom provides 21 national distribution of Canadian conventional 22 television stations in both French and English. These 23 stations produce or acquire and exhibit local, 24 regional, and national programming. Cancom extends the 25 reach of these signals to Canadians who would not StenoTran 3136 1 otherwise have access to this Canadian programming. As 2 Larry notes, Canadians value and watch the Canadian 3 conventional television stations which we make 4 available by satellite. Because of this, distribution 5 of Canadian general interest signals is the best means 6 of achieving preponderance of Canadian viewing. 7 14947 We appreciate from the debate at this 8 hearing that challenges remain as to how best to 9 encourage the production and exhibition of Canadian 10 programming. As far as distribution is concerned, 11 however, the framework is already in place. The 12 Commission's policy framework for competition among 13 licensed SRDUs will provide all the benefits of 14 competition without sacrificing any of the public 15 policy objectives for which Cancom was originally 16 licensed in 1981, and which continue to be applicable 17 today. 18 14948 MR. McEWAN: To conclude, Madam 19 Chair, I will refer to the four key themes which you 20 addressed in your opening remarks. 21 14949 How can the Commission assure that 22 quality Canadian programming is produced and broadcast 23 to the largest number of Canadians? 24 14950 Now we have no comments on which of 25 the alternative frameworks presented in this proceeding StenoTran 3137 1 best encourages the production of Canadian programming. 2 Once the programming has been produced, however, it 3 should be telecast and distributed to Canadians. We 4 believe you should adopt policies which require or 5 assist in the distribution of such programming on the 6 widest possible basis. Distributors in competition 7 with one another should be subject to comparable 8 regulatory obligations in this regard. 9 1535 10 14951 Point No. 2, how can the Commission 11 help ensure that all participants in the Canadian 12 broadcasting system have the ability to adapt to a 13 changing environment and that the system has access to 14 financial resources to benefit Canadian programming? 15 Again, we believe that competition within a regulatory 16 framework is the best means of achieving this goal. 17 14952 Fair and sustainable competition 18 occurs when all players are subject to the same rules. 19 14953 Competition for its own sake would 20 never have resulted in the quality, quantity and broad 21 distribution of Canadian programming which Canada has 22 achieved to date; and that achievement, by the way, is 23 one of which you and we should be proud. 24 14954 Your third point: How can the 25 regulatory framework ensure that the unique StenoTran 3138 1 characteristics of the French-language market are 2 maintained and recognized? Under the Commission's 3 framework for competition among the licensed SRDUs, 4 SRDUs will continue to play an important role in the 5 national distribution of French-language television. 6 That framework requires the satellite distribution of 7 all French-language signals with national rights. 8 14955 In addition, French-language 9 producers and exhibitors are one group of recipients of 10 the required financial contribution of licensed SRDUs 11 to the creation and presentation of Canadian 12 programming. 13 14956 And your last point: How can a 14 regulatory framework recognize the particular 15 requirements of the different elements of the system 16 and balance the desire for flexibility with the need to 17 ensure equity and the protection of the public 18 interest? Here again we believe that a regulatory 19 framework which allows competitive forces to operate 20 within public policy constraints which apply equally to 21 all participants is the best means of achieving this 22 goal. 23 14957 This concludes our presentation, 24 Madam Chair and Commissioners, and my colleagues and I 25 will be very pleased to respond to any questions that StenoTran 3139 1 you may have. 2 14958 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, 3 Mr. McEwan and your colleagues. 4 14959 Commissioner Wilson. 5 14960 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Good afternoon, 6 gentlemen. 7 14961 Since I am somewhat constrained by 8 what I can discuss with you, I hope you won't be 9 insulted if I have only a few questions for you. You 10 will be happy to be able to get home at a reasonable 11 hour. 12 14962 You have limited your comments in 13 this proceeding to just three areas, the responsibility 14 for expenditures on Canadian programming, ensuring a 15 viable private broadcasting sector and the issue of 16 diversity. What I would like to do is just question 17 you a little bit about each one of those areas, 18 avoiding the forbidden topics. 19 14963 Responsibility for expenditures on 20 Canadian programming. In paragraph 4 of your 21 submission you state in the first sentence that: 22 "... it is important to build 23 upon the function performed by 24 distribution undertakings in 25 making Canadian programming StenoTran 3140 1 available to all Canadians." 2 14964 Then, in the final sentence of that 3 paragraph you state that while the financial 4 contribution made by distributors to the production of 5 Canadian programming is important, it is secondary to 6 the actual delivery. 7 14965 Later, in paragraph 9, you say that 8 the contribution of distribution undertakings should 9 extend beyond a financial contribution and that the 10 contribution made by distributors should not be 11 measured only in financial terms. 12 14966 Now, as I am sure you are aware, we 13 haven't had very many parties sort of stepping up to 14 the plate and saying, "please let me give more." So, I 15 am just wondering what do you mean by that when you 16 say -- I mean, are you saying that the cost of delivery 17 of the services that you make available across the 18 country should be factored into our evaluation of your 19 contribution or -- 20 14967 MR. McEWAN: No. I think we are 21 talking about something different when we are talking 22 about the function of SRDUs. We have an obligation to 23 put forward as a distributor 5 per cent of our revenue, 24 our regulated revenue, to the production of Canadian 25 programming and that's the contribution that we make in StenoTran 3141 1 support of Canadian programming. But because it is 5 2 per cent and because this is not a large industry, our 3 own SRDU industry, that by itself is not as important 4 as the other function we perform, which is the 5 redistribution of Canadian signals across the country 6 on an equal basis. 7 14968 So we see our role very much as the 8 provision of Canadian general interest program services 9 to places that otherwise would not have access to those 10 signals, and that's a very important role for us to 11 play because it enables a larger audience to see 12 Canadian programs. 13 14969 That's what that refers to. 14 14970 COMMISSIONER WILSON: So you are not 15 really offering to do any more than you are already 16 doing? 17 14971 MR. McEWAN: No. 18 14972 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Okay. 19 14973 Then, obviously, I misread that, but 20 it just struck me the way that it was worded "should 21 extend beyond a financial contribution," I thought 22 maybe they are making us an offer here. 23 14974 I do want to clarify something. On 24 page 3 of your oral submission today, on this same 25 topic you say: StenoTran 3142 1 "A secondary contribution is the 2 provision of financial support 3 to the production sector. In 4 this regard, the Commission now 5 requires Cancom and other 6 licensed SRDUs to contribute 5 7 per cent... This requirement 8 codifies the critical support 9 which Cancom has provided 10 throughout its history to 11 aboriginal broadcasters and to 12 the extension of francophone 13 services." 14 14975 You mentioned later on that a portion 15 of your 5 per cent goes to the production of 16 French-language programming, but I wonder if you could 17 just explain to me about your history with aboriginal 18 broadcasters and is there a portion of your 5 per cent 19 that is allocated specifically for them? 20 14976 MR. McEWAN: Each year -- well, 21 historically Cancom has offered extensive support to 22 TVNC, and we intend to continue that. 23 14977 Under the new rules we have to file 24 with the Commission a summary statement of how we 25 expect that 5 per cent to be distributed each year and StenoTran 3143 1 we just did that. In this coming year we will be 2 donating more than $400,000 to TVNC, and that plus our 3 other areas of contribution add up to the 5 per cent. 4 This is part of the arrangement that we have with our 5 historic partners in these enterprises, which are LARK, 6 the extension of francophone radio services, Canal 7 Savoir, uplink services for native broadcasters and 8 fundamental cash support for TVNC. 9 14978 So that is something that has been 10 there from the beginning. We can go into that in more 11 depth, but it is something that we intend to continue. 12 14979 COMMISSIONER WILSON: That is great. 13 I am still pretty new here, so I am not familiar with 14 all of the details of all of the commitments that have 15 been made by the different distribution undertakings, 16 but that is helpful to me. 17 14980 The second area in which you make 18 comments has to do with ensuring a viable private 19 broadcasting sector. You state that the Commission's 20 policies with respect to your ability to offer distant 21 Canadian signals actually favours U.S. programming over 22 Canadian programming in that U.S. superstations are 23 available for linkage with Canadian pay television 24 services, while Canadian distant signals are not. 25 14981 I wonder if you could just expand on StenoTran 3144 1 your views on this issue? 2 14982 MR. McEWAN: I will pass to Larry 3 Corke in a moment, but just if I may step off with 4 that, we believe that there is an opportunity here to 5 support the further penetration of the pay tier by 6 opening linkage up to Canadian distant signals for 7 larger distributors and that this will be to the 8 benefit of everyone in the industry without having a 9 dramatic impact because we are talking about the pay 10 tiers and not a lower, more broadly penetrated tier. 11 14983 Larry Corke. 12 14984 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Maybe I can 13 just clarify before Mr. Corke starts. What you are 14 suggesting is on your pay tier you would add on a 15 station from Halifax, one from Edmonton, one from 16 Vancouver and have a whole array of Canadian channels 17 available? 18 14985 MR. McEWAN: Exactly. These signals 19 are already up there, but right now large cable 20 operators are not permitted to take those without 21 specific application. 22 14986 We think this is a way to announce 23 the coverage of the tier, the penetration of the tier, 24 particularly as we move into a more digital 25 environment, without creating some dramatic change to StenoTran 3145 1 the broadcasting infrastructure. 2 14987 Larry, do you want to pick up on 3 this? 4 14988 MR. CORKE: I don't think I can add 5 too much. It is just that as a good example, I can 6 sell WGN, KTLA, WPIX, WSPK to Sudbury, but I am not 7 allowed to sell them CityTV or CFMT. They are all 8 distant signals. They are all independent stations, 9 and Sudbury dearly would like to have CityTV on a pay 10 tier. They would like to have it on any tier, but it 11 would take it on a pay tier, but I am prohibited from 12 selling them. I find that frustrating at times, and 13 that's true all across Canada. 14 14989 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Do you have a 15 lot of demand for this? 16 14990 MR. CORKE: Yes. Yes. I mean if I 17 were allowed to -- you know, ITV on the extended basic 18 tier in St. John's, Newfoundland has a phenomenal 19 following. ITV and CHCU used to be carried in Sudbury, 20 in the Soo, and they were ordered to take them off with 21 some great distress, but we have a tremendous 22 following. Canadians want to watch more Canadian 23 channels and general interest channels are very strong 24 channels. 25 14991 COMMISSIONER WILSON: All right. StenoTran 3146 1 14992 The final area you discuss in your 2 written submission is the issue of diversity. Actually 3 I think we may have just covered that because I think 4 you tie the whole issue of diversity to the same issue 5 of being able to provide distant Canadian signals and 6 that that would contribute to greater diversity. 7 14993 MR. McEWAN: That's correct. All the 8 questions you have asked have in fact been linked. We 9 see an opportunity in our role in distributing large 10 numbers of Canadian signals, as well as American 11 signals, as one that provides an opportunity for more 12 Canadian programs to be seen, particularly since these 13 are conventional television stations with very popular 14 broad levels of programming. It is part of our 15 function and we think there is a small restriction in 16 here that could be eased and will be of benefit to the 17 system overall. 18 14994 COMMISSIONER WILSON: In 1997 the 19 Commission actually denied a request by Cancom to do 20 this. I am just wondering what in your view has 21 changed on the landscape since then that might persuade 22 the Commission to revisit this issue. 23 14995 MR. McEWAN: I think among other 24 things we are heading into an era in which the 25 penetration of digital set-top boxes is going to be StenoTran 3147 1 important. So, anything that drives pay tiers will be 2 helpful for accelerating the deployment of those boxes 3 and this is perhaps a small incremental step that could 4 be taken. But again it is small. This is a modest 5 issue because we are talking about pay tiers. We are 6 not talking about broad tiers. 7 14996 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Do you think 8 all BDUs should be able to do this? 9 14997 MR. McEWAN: I don't see why not. 10 14998 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Or is it just 11 like this would be good for us, but not for the other 12 guys? 13 14999 MR. McEWAN: No. 14 15000 COMMISSIONER WILSON: A lot of people 15 have been saying that, this would be really good for 16 us. 17 15001 MR. CORKE: No, I think anybody 18 should. I mean as long as the rules are tied to 19 linkage and carriage which promotes it, no, everyone 20 should be able to. The signals are there. Technology 21 makes them available to everyone. 22 15002 MR. McEWAN: Yes. 23 15003 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Those are my 24 questions, gentlemen. Thank you very much. 25 15004 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are speaking StenoTran 3148 1 here of making them available to BDUs. 2 15005 MR. McEWAN: That's correct. 3 15006 THE CHAIRPERSON: The Commission 4 allowing BDUs to pick them up for pairing. 5 15007 Do you see that as creating further 6 copyright problems for local broadcasters to bring 7 Canadian signals? Would it depend on the signal? You 8 mentioned City. 9 15008 MR. CORKE: I don't doubt there are 10 probably some program rights issues that certain 11 programmers would have with any foreign signals, 12 Canadian or other, coming into its market or any 13 distant signal. My guess is though that the 14 programming issues centre probably on the American 15 product they are bringing in rather than the Canadian 16 product they are giving more distribution to. 17 15009 THE CHAIRPERSON: I suppose the 18 argument would be that certainly at the level at which 19 the premium tier is the damage is not -- the damage 20 would grow, presumably, or the allegation of damage via 21 program rights issues would increase as the premium 22 tier subscribers increase? 23 15010 MR. CORKE: I think that would be 24 their argument, but one of the reasons why I would like 25 to see this revisited is pay has dropped in penetration StenoTran 3149 1 over the last couple of years. If I can remember -- 2 let's see, my oldest son is 17 -- we have been working 3 trying to sell pay TV for 17 years and it has gone up 4 to 18 per cent and maybe 20 per cent nationally and 5 dropped back down to 15 and going to 12 quick. 6 15011 THE CHAIRPERSON: So, unlike me, you 7 were around then. 8 15012 MR. CORKE: Yes. 9 15013 THE CHAIRPERSON: One of the reasons 10 that pay has dropped, we understand, is channel 11 capacity constraints, and of course every signal you 12 carry takes up a channel. But it would be on the 13 digital tier I suppose, once it is digitized, which is 14 not necessarily tomorrow from what we have heard. 15 15014 MR. McEWAN: Our point is this is a 16 modest proposal and would be at the BDUs discretion 17 entirely. 18 15015 THE CHAIRPERSON: On page 4 of your 19 oral presentation you raise the issue of exempt 20 programming. I am not quite sure what it is you 21 propose, an obligation to contribute, not necessarily 22 monetary, but would consist you say of an offering of 23 Canadian choices. Give me a concrete example of how 24 one would exact some contribution from an exempted 25 service? StenoTran 3150 1 15016 I think we have exacted a requirement 2 from those who distribute a games channel, correct, but 3 it is financial, if I recall. We have asked that the 4 cable operator levy and put in a certain percentage of 5 revenues back into Canadian programming. 6 15017 I am sure that staff will raise their 7 eyebrows if I am wrong. I think it was in relation to 8 the Games Channel, to SEGA, and it was a monetary one. 9 So give me an example of what you mean by something 10 other than financial in nature in an exempted channel 11 situation. 12 15018 MR. McEWAN: Really, this is one of 13 those areas. Our reference here was to the TRDU issue 14 and we are talking about exempt, who are operating 15 under exemption or -- 16 15019 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we are not 17 talking of exempted services like the SEGA channel? 18 15020 MR. McEWAN: No. 19 15021 THE CHAIRPERSON: You know that there 20 have been many suggestions made as to how to extract 21 contributions from American or exempted services, or 22 foreign or exempted services, but this was more in that 23 context. 24 15022 MR. WHITEHEAD: Madam Vice-Chair, I 25 might be able to help you without talking about TRDUs, StenoTran 3151 1 but an example of a non-financial contribution say in 2 the context of the Games Channel might be, okay you can 3 be carried, provided that a certain amount of your 4 shelf space is Canadian games. That's what we would 5 call a non-financial contribution. 6 15023 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you put in a few 7 hockey games in there and you are okay. 8 15024 Thank you very much, gentlemen. 9 15025 Counsel. 10 15026 MS PATTERSON: No questions. 11 15027 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very 12 much. 13 15028 We will now take a 15-minute break. 14 We will be back at five minutes to four. 15 15029 Nous reprendrons à quatre heures 16 moins cinq. 17 --- Short recess at / Courte suspension à 1540 18 --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1600 19 15030 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, 20 s'il vous plaît, voulez-vous inviter le participant 21 suivant. 22 15031 Mme SANTERRE: Merci, Madame la 23 Présidente. 24 15032 La présentation sera faite par la 25 Chambre de commerce et d'industrie du Québec StenoTran 3152 1 métropolitain. 2 15033 La parole est à vous. 3 PRÉSENTATION / PRESENTATION 4 15034 M. McGOLDRICK: Mesdames et Messieurs 5 les Conseillers, Madame la Présidente, effectivement 6 nous sommes seulement deux; je dois regretter 7 l'absence, pour des raisons inévitables, 8 incontournables, de M. Alain Kirouac, le directeur 9 général de la chambre. Alors je suis accompagné de 10 Mme Sylvie Pagé, productrice indépendante de Tout Écran 11 et membre de la Table des industries culturelles de la 12 Chambre de commerce et d'industrie du Québec 13 métropolitain. 14 15035 Je note que notre chambre est la 15 seule à se présenter devant ces audiences, ce qui me 16 surprend quelque peu parce que de nos jours la culture 17 devient de plus en plus économique dans le sens que les 18 entreprises culturelles deviennent de plus en plus 19 importantes. 20 15036 Peut-être que cet intérêt pour les 21 industries culturelles a été une des raisons pour 22 lesquelles, en fin de semaine dernière, la Chambre de 23 commerce de Québec métro a été nommée la chambre de 24 commerce de l'année par la Chambre de commerce du 25 Québec, qui était en congrès à Rivière-du-Loup. StenoTran 3153 1 15037 Peut-être que j'en profiterais tout à 2 l'heure pour déposer à Mme la Présidente le premier 3 numéro de la nouvelle revue de la Chambre de commerce 4 et d'industrie du Québec métropolitain, où il y a un 5 article sur le GRAPPE en page 13, qui est le Grand 6 réseau des acteurs et promoteurs du partenariat 7 économique. C'est par le biais de cet organisme-là que 8 la chambre s'intéresse sur le terrain à toutes les 9 dimensions de l'activité économique, que ce soit la 10 technologie, les infrastructures et la culture. 11 15038 Alors la Table des industries 12 culturelles de la chambre, représentée ici par Mme Pagé 13 et moi-même, nous sommes heureux au nom de la chambre 14 de vous apporter un message. Ce message, je le résume 15 brièvement avant de lire mes notes orales. 16 15039 Premièrement, l'époque de la 17 concentration des décideurs n'est plus nécessaire dans 18 une économie mondiale d'aujourd'hui. Les régions 19 naturelles, qui sont le foyer de populations, 20 d'activités économiques, sociales et culturelles, et 21 homogènes, et caetera, c'est le remplacement de demain 22 de ce qu'on appelait autrefois les états-nations; 23 l'Europe qui se construit accorde une large place, 24 d'ailleurs, au phénomène des régions. 25 15040 Je vais parler également de la région StenoTran 3154 1 de Québec et aussi de l'industrie de l'audiovisuel dans 2 notre région, qui est de plus en plus dynamique. 3 Ensuite, nous terminerons en disant qu'est-ce qui nous 4 manque pour réussir dans ce monde qui se dessine. 5 15041 Alors voilà en bref ce que je vais 6 dire. Maintenant, je vais lire une présentation un peu 7 plus formelle. 8 15042 La chambre est heureuse, évidemment, 9 de l'occasion qui lui est offerte d'élaborer sur le 10 mémoire soumis en juillet dernier concernant les 11 politiques du Conseil relatives à la télévision 12 canadienne de demain. Nous spécifions "de demain" car 13 notre préoccupation, comme d'ailleurs celle de la 14 Commission en tenant ces audiences publiques, est de 15 mieux répondre aux nouvelles attentes de la population 16 canadienne et de l'industrie qui la dessert. 17 15043 Le contexte dans lequel s'épanouira 18 la télévision canadienne de demain n'est pas le même 19 qu'hier, alors qu'à cette époque la stratégie 20 canadienne face à l'hégémonie américaine faisait appel 21 à une centralisation excessive appuyée d'une 22 concentration des ressources financières, techniques et 23 humaines à Toronto et à Montréal. Il en est résulté 24 une qualité et une efficacité certaines mais, dans le 25 cas de l'auditoire anglo-canadien, un désintérêt StenoTran 3155 1 grandissant de la programmation, reflet de l'uniformité 2 du produit face à la variété chez le voisin. 3 15044 Ce qui fait la force d'un pays à 4 structure régionale comme le Canada, c'est sa 5 diversité. Pour la raison évoquée ci-haut, celle-ci, 6 cette diversité, est occultée par une stratégie 7 maintenant dépassée où la qualité technique est acquise 8 et les économies d'échelle sont moins importantes qu'au 9 début de la télévision. 10 15045 Le cas de la télévision au Canada 11 français est différent seulement dans la mesure où la 12 concurrence américaine pour la faveur des 13 téléspectateurs est plus faible en raison du fait que 14 la télé québécoise colle davantage à la réalité 15 culturelle du Québec. Le problème, par contre, de la 16 désaffection est le même dans tout le pays dans le sens 17 que les régions ne trouvent pas leur spécificité dans 18 une programmation standardisée axée autour d'une 19 culture type qui voile les racines diverses et le 20 dynamique des sociétés régionales. 21 15046 Pour la population canadienne, le 22 grand perdant est la variété, celle qui compte, celle 23 du contenu. Nous ne pouvons plus jouer la carte du 24 produit unique ni celle de la nostalgie. Les régions 25 ont plus à offrir. StenoTran 3156 1 15047 N'oublions pas que si la 2 mondialisation des échanges standardise les marchés 3 pour les produits de grande consommation, elle offre 4 aussi des débouchés élargis pour des produits 5 distinctifs issus de la créativité des populations, et 6 cette créativité, surtout dans le domaine culturel, est 7 reliée intimement au vécu des gens, nourrie et inspirée 8 par leur propre histoire et alimentée par le contexte 9 régional, avec les influences de la géographie, de 10 l'économique ou du social. Pour qu'elle s'épanouisse, 11 qu'elle jaillisse abondante, elle ne doit pas devoir se 12 déraciner. Le contenu produit en région peut aspirer à 13 la valeur universelle autant que celui produit dans les 14 métropoles. 15 15048 Pour jouer le rôle de fenêtre sur le 16 monde, les régions doivent avoir une masse critique de 17 production, ce qui permet de développer et de conserver 18 les ressources techniques et financières et humaines. 19 Ainsi, les régions peuvent concurrencer les autres 20 centres de création et de production et contribuer à la 21 diffusion de la culture du pays dans son ensemble. 22 15049 La Chambre de commerce souscrit à une 23 plus grande place pour la production en région. Si les 24 régions démontrent un dynamisme, ce qui est le cas de 25 Québec, nous souhaitons que le CRTC, par ses politiques StenoTran 3157 1 et son encadrement de l'industrie, facilite les 2 initiatives créatrices d'emplois et crée un cadre qui 3 leur permette de compétitionner à armes égales. 4 15050 Le nombre d'organismes qui se 5 présentent à ces audiences indique déjà un intérêt à la 6 démarche du CRTC, et les intérêts variés qui sont en 7 jeu -- producteurs, diffuseurs, spécialistes, 8 créateurs, artisans et gens d'affaires -- se succèdent 9 à cette tribune avec leurs besoins, leurs craintes, 10 leurs espoirs, leurs critiques et leurs inquiétudes. 11 15051 La Commission entendra des 12 intervenants dont la préoccupation première est 13 économique, ceux qui, dans le contexte de 14 déréglementation, ou même de réglementation, se 15 désespèrent seulement lorsque les règles normales du 16 marché sont détournées et qu'elles entravent la 17 fonction sociale de l'entreprise, qui est celle 18 d'assurer l'équilibre entre l'offre et la demande même 19 dans les produits culturels et d'y trouver leur profit 20 dans le respect des règles du jeu. 21 15052 Dans une économie libre comme la 22 nôtre, la tâche d'un organisme comme le CRTC est 23 toujours délicate. Ses choix affectent les citoyens et 24 les gens d'affaires. 25 15053 En terminant, mesdames et messieurs, StenoTran 3158 1 vous me permettrez de rappeler que, peu importe le 2 secteur d'activités à essence économique qu'on débat, 3 même celui de la culture populaire et des 4 communications, des entreprises en santé constituent la 5 base de notre richesse collective sans toutefois 6 prétendre être le seul déterminant de notre 7 épanouissement social et culturel. 8 15054 Merci. 9 15055 Maintenant, je passe la parole à ma 10 collègue, Mme Sylvie Pagé, qui, comme je l'ai dit, est 11 producteur indépendant et membre de la Table des 12 industries culturelles du GRAPPE de la Chambre de 13 commerce de Québec. 14 15056 Madame Pagé. 15 15057 Mme PAGÉ: Madame la Présidente, 16 Mesdames, Messieurs les Commissaires, je voudrais 17 soulever quelques points dont on a déjà parlé soit par 18 la table du GRAPPE, soit comme producteur indépendant 19 lorsque je suis également aux audiences dans ce cas-là. 20 15058 On a souvent parlé -- et je voulais 21 le soulever à nouveau -- que Québec est le deuxième 22 pôle francophone de production en Amérique du Nord. La 23 région de Québec nous apparaît donc bien plus qu'un 24 simple complément de marché, elle est aussi un 25 potentiel d'expression et d'opinion. StenoTran 3159 1 15059 Les ressources, rapidement: environ 2 400 personnes oeuvrent dans le secteur de la production 3 à Québec, 150 techniciens pigistes, près de 500 4 artistes actifs et une quinzaine de maisons de 5 production. Tout récemment, il y a à peu près un mois, 6 l'ONF d'ailleurs ouvrait un bureau à Québec avec un 7 producteur qui aura son bureau officiel dans la ville 8 de Québec, qui travaillera avec toutes les régions. 9 Alors déjà l'ONF a fait un pas là-dessus suite à notre 10 travail et en conséquence de l'énorme travail de 11 réalisateurs et de producteurs qui se fait dans la 12 région, et ils ont fait le choix de la ville de Québec 13 pour toutes les régions de la province. 14 15060 Il y a aussi une autre bonne nouvelle 15 à Québec. Il y a la tête de réseau anglophone Global, 16 dont vous avez permis l'installation. C'est une 17 démarche dont, évidemment, les producteurs se 18 réjouissent, la table également et la Chambre de 19 commerce. Il y a du travail à faire. On doit créer 20 ces liens-là, ces habitudes de travail, mais on en est 21 très heureux. 22 15061 Ce qu'il faut bien voir aussi, ce 23 qu'on demande d'une façon concrète, par exemple, au 24 CRTC, c'est, dans le cadre réglementaire du CRTC, on 25 devra légiférer pour rendre impossible l'évitement des StenoTran 3160 1 diffuseurs -- et je vais m'expliquer -- de produire et 2 de faire produire en région par des compétences 3 régionales des émissions qui pourront être vues et 4 financées par l'ensemble des Canadiens. On en 5 discutera ensemble. 6 15062 Il y a aussi le fait que le CRTC -- 7 un autre point dont on s'est rendu compte -- a 8 évidemment des exigences minimales sur les stations 9 locales. On en a parlé beaucoup lorsque vous 10 renouvelez les licences de stations locales; on parle 11 beaucoup d'obligations d'heures de production pour des 12 informations et on tend tranquillement à sensibiliser 13 tout le monde, le Conseil également et les gens de la 14 production et les diffuseurs locaux, pour produire pas 15 uniquement des informations mais toutes les formes de 16 télévision qui sont accessibles pour les producteurs, 17 notamment pour Téléfilm, le Fonds canadien de 18 télévision et les crédits d'impôt. Alors ça suppose 19 des formes de télévision qui sont admissibles à ces 20 genres de financement là. 21 15063 On espère notamment que le CRTC va 22 diversifier dans ses obligations, va demander 23 précisément des formes de télévision autres que de la 24 nouvelle. On est bien bons dans la nouvelle, on fait 25 ça à peu près depuis 15 ans, mais aussi il y a toute StenoTran 3161 1 une expertise qui s'est développée pour des séries pour 2 enfants, pour des documentaires -- la preuve, l'ONF 3 d'ailleurs a choisi Québec -- et des miniséries; 4 évidemment, pas des séries lourdes qui entraînent 5 énormément de budget. 6 15064 Soit dit en passant, cet été j'ai 7 co-produit avec une maison de Montréal une série 8 lourde; alors tout est possible. 9 15065 Ce dont on se rend compte, 10 effectivement, c'est qu'après de nombreuses 11 représentations auprès de Téléfilm Canada, la SODEC, le 12 fonds, force est de constater que la solution se trouve 13 ici avec vous, les représentants du CRTC. Les 14 diffuseurs ne bougeront que si les obligations de 15 licence leur sont imposées. 16 15066 À mon grand plaisir -- vous avez lu 17 effectivement le communiqué de presse -- Téléfilm 18 Canada a résumé sa comparution de vendredi dernier et 19 demande expressément au Conseil -- je vais le prendre 20 tout près de moi -- qu'il devrait exiger, par des 21 conditions concernant des droits de diffusion, que les 22 radiodiffuseurs déclenchent un nombre convenable de 23 productions régionales. Alors on est très heureux de 24 constater qu'effectivement, d'une façon formelle, 25 Téléfilm est cohérent dans les démarches qu'on avait StenoTran 3162 1 faites auprès d'eux et effectivement on est rendu à 2 essayer de trouver ensemble des mesures qui ne 3 bousculent pas un marché mais qui affinent et qui 4 rendent cohérent le fait qu'on est dans un système de 5 réglementation. 6 15067 Il y a un autre point aussi que 7 j'aimerais soulever à l'attention du Conseil, et c'est 8 les fameuses reprises. Les reprises chez les 9 diffuseurs constituent maintenant près de 30 pour cent 10 de certaines grilles de programmation. Ceci constitue 11 une fausse vision de la réalité de l'offre de 12 programmation et une impossible demande par rapport à 13 la production. 14 15068 Malgré l'avènement de nombreux 15 canaux, l'industrie de la télévision à Québec a 16 encaissé un grave recul de diffusion au cours des 17 dernières années. Le volume de production à Québec n'a 18 pas du tout progressé malgré la venue de tous ces 19 canaux-là, de telle sorte que la contribution de 20 l'industrie de Québec à l'offre de programmation 21 télévisuelle est passée de 15 pour cent en 1975 à 3 22 pour cent en 1996. 23 15069 Je tiens à le redire parce que c'est 24 ça, la réalité. Malgré qu'on a effectivement beaucoup 25 plus de canaux, on parle des reprises, mais l'offre StenoTran 3163 1 télévisuelle à Québec ne nous a pas permis d'accroître 2 et de progresser dans le marché disponible de la 3 production. 4 15070 Alors il faut créer cette habitude-là 5 chez les diffuseurs d'aller demander, et la façon de le 6 faire, de créer cette habitude-là à 250 kilomètres de 7 la métropole, c'est de créer une obligation, 8 effectivement. 9 15071 Téléfilm Canada, notamment, a 10 travaillé avec des projets en pré-phase dans lesquels 11 ils ont investi de l'argent. C'était un projet pilote 12 qui ne demandait pas de licence de diffuseur, alors on 13 était vraiment à une phase préliminaire, et ça a 14 encouragé énormément les producteurs à préparer des 15 dossiers qui leur permettraient éventuellement de les 16 présenter chez les diffuseurs et d'enclencher des 17 licences. 18 15072 On sait que ce sont les diffuseurs 19 qui enclenchent les licences et, suite à ça, la 20 production peut suivre le cours du financement. Alors 21 c'est essentiellement là où on doit... le doigt sur le 22 bobo, c'est là. 23 15073 Il y a un point important: En date 24 du 6 mai dernier le communiqué du CRTC demandait quel 25 incitatif encouragerait les diffuseurs conventionnels à StenoTran 3164 1 investir dans des émissions locales et régionales, 2 notamment. Il y a une petite note que je voudrais 3 porter à votre attention. 4 15074 À partir du moment où, comme 5 producteur régional, on fait des émissions, on est à la 6 recherche, évidemment, pour boucler la structure de 7 financement, de partenaires financiers et on crée dans 8 notre région, dans notre milieu, un nouveau 9 comportement chez les gens qui peuvent financer, chez 10 des partenaires commanditaires notamment, chez des gens 11 qui éventuellement n'auraient jamais investi dans la 12 télévision, et ils le font par le biais des producteurs 13 indépendants qui doivent compléter la structure de 14 financement. Ça crée un mouvement économique 15 intéressant et c'est très efficace. 16 15075 Ça, c'est juste une question de 17 réflexe; les diffuseurs n'ont pas encore ce réflexe-là 18 de dire: Effectivement, on va aller chercher un 19 nouveau marché au niveau des commanditaires. 20 15076 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Madame Pagé, on 21 m'indique que vous avez déjà dépassé l'allocation de 22 temps; alors j'aimerais vous demander de résumer avant 23 que la cloche explose. 24 15077 Mme PAGÉ: C'est beau. Je vais être 25 très rapide. Deux points. StenoTran 3165 1 15078 Je voulais juste tenir aussi en 2 considération l'importance de la culture. Même 3 Mme Copps a fait un bon travail le 24 juin dernier, par 4 exemple. On pouvait noter dans un communiqué 5 l'importance de maintenir les cultures locales et 6 nationales et de reconnaître que le pluralisme et la 7 diversité culturelle font la grandeur d'un pays. On 8 discute maintenant des mesures visant à préserver ces 9 cultures locales et nationales. Alors je pense qu'il 10 faut prendre les mesures. 11 15079 Dernier autre point. Vous parliez 12 tantôt des documentaires à Radio-Canada, par exemple. 13 On parlait aussi du financement des documentaires par 14 Rogers. On parlait aussi des fenêtres, des grilles au 15 niveau des documentaires. 16 15080 Il faut aussi créer des grilles pour 17 de nouveaux documentaires. Radio-Canada et Télé-Québec 18 aussi ont fait des grilles, mais ils ressortent de la 19 poussière des vieux documentaires. Ce serait le fun 20 qu'on puisse donner des projets de documentaires à des 21 producteurs. 22 15081 Alors je vais vous laisser là-dessus, 23 si vous avez des questions. 24 15082 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Voilà. Merci, Madame 25 Pagé et Monsieur McGolbrick. StenoTran 3166 1 15083 La conseillère Pennefather, s'il vous 2 plaît. 3 15084 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Bonjour. 4 Merci d'être avec nous cet après-midi. Vous venez 5 d'arriver de la ville de Québec? 6 15085 M. McGOLDRICK: Oui. 7 15086 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Excellent. 8 15087 En effet, vous avez couvert aussi 9 beaucoup de points dans la présentation cet après-midi 10 et dans votre présentation écrite, sur laquelle j'ai 11 quelques questions. Mais avant de commencer quelques 12 thèmes fondamentaux, j'aimerais juste être claire sur 13 certaines choses. 14 15088 On mentionne souvent -- c'est la base 15 de votre intervention -- la production, la présence 16 régionale à la télévision régionale et à la télévision 17 nationale. La définition des mots, la clarification... 18 qu'est-ce qu'on veut dire par "régionale" dans le sens 19 Québec? 20 15089 Vous avez mentionné que l'ONF 21 revient, en termes de production, dans la ville de 22 Québec et vous avez parlé dans ce sens-là des régions 23 du Québec; ils ont choisi d'être en ville au lieu de 24 dans les autres régions comme ils étaient dans le 25 temps. Est-ce qu'on utilise le mot de la meilleure StenoTran 3167 1 façon si on parle des régions du Québec? Parce que 2 vous avez mentionné aussi Téléfilm Canada et leur 3 implication dans les productions régionales. Voilà. 4 15090 M. McGOLDRICK: Alors, Madame 5 Pennefather, il y a évidemment région et région, il y a 6 grandes régions, mais je pense qu'aujourd'hui on 7 définit "région" comme un ensemble géographique avec 8 une activité économique commune et évidemment 9 d'importance suffisante pour créer une société vivante, 10 et caetera. 11 15091 Alors, dans ce sens-là, évidemment 12 tout se fait en région, évidemment tout se fait à 13 l'état d'une unité familiale ou un village, et caetera, 14 mais à un moment donné, dans notre monde à nous, les 15 régions, ce sont des ensembles relativement grands. 16 15092 Alors il peut y avoir des régions à 17 l'intérieur du Québec, des régions à l'intérieur du 18 Canada, et évidemment à l'intérieur de l'Europe aussi 19 il y a des grandes régions, le Middle Europe et tout 20 ça. 21 15093 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Mais nous, 22 ici aujourd'hui, on parle surtout de la région du 23 Québec vis-à-vis de la région de Montréal. 24 15094 M. McGOLDRICK: Alors on parle, 25 finalement, de la région de la capitale. StenoTran 3168 1 15095 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: De la 2 capitale. 3 15096 M. McGOLDRICK: C'est une région tout 4 de même qui... presque en caricaturant, je parlais d'un 5 produit standard, et caetera, un produit finalement 6 moyen, anonyme, qu'on a créé au moment où il fallait, 7 dans un sens, concentrer les efforts et les ressources, 8 et caetera. Aujourd'hui, ce n'est plus nécessaire 9 parce qu'on peut avoir des économies d'échelle à 10 beaucoup moindre échelle, à plus petite échelle, et 11 ainsi de suite. 12 15097 Mais si on regarde, par exemple, la 13 région de Québec, c'est quatre siècles d'histoire, 14 650 000 personnes qui ont des racines profondes, des 15 racines françaises, irlandaises; à un moment donné, le 16 tiers de la ville de Québec était irlandais, et 17 caetera. Tout ça, une culture qui s'est développée 18 finalement de façon homogène et quasiment en vase clos, 19 et à ce moment-là qui a produit... au 19e et au 20e 20 siècles une bonne partie du patrimoine culturel du 21 Canada et du Québec, ça s'est fait à Québec. Les 22 poètes, les historiens, et caetera, c'était à Québec à 23 ce moment-là. 24 15098 Ce n'est pas parce que les moyens de 25 support changent et deviennent électroniques qu'il n'y StenoTran 3169 1 a pas là matière culturelle pour développer. 2 15099 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Non, je 3 comprends très bien. 4 15100 M. McGOLDRICK: On veut la 5 développer, on a les ressources pour la développer chez 6 nous, et c'est ce qu'on veut. 7 15101 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Je 8 comprends très bien. C'est juste que j'arrive au 9 moment où on peut discuter de ce que nous, ici, le 10 Conseil, on peut faire. 11 15102 Alors disons si on part de la région 12 de la capitale, vous nous proposez un autre thème très 13 important, l'application équitable de ce nouveau cadre 14 réglementaire... et je cite. Et à la page 5 vous 15 mentionné le besoin d'une certaine autonomie. 16 15103 Pourriez-vous nous expliquer 17 qu'est-ce que c'est, cette autonomie que vous cherchez, 18 qui est mentionnée à la page 5 de votre mémoire écrit? 19 15104 Mme PAGÉ: Oui. Moi, je vais vous 20 répondre à ça. 21 15105 C'est que lorsqu'on parle, par 22 exemple... évidemment, c'est les têtes de réseaux qui 23 enclenchent une licence, et les stations locales et 24 régionales ont des heures, donc des plages à compléter 25 selon l'obligation du CRTC notamment. StenoTran 3170 1 15106 Ce qu'on demande, par exemple, c'est 2 d'être capables d'avoir une autonomie par rapport à 3 l'obligation du réseau, c'est-à-dire qu'on est capables 4 de fermer la switch du réseau ou bien de faire une 5 production locale qui est diffusée localement ou bien 6 une production qui sera choisie par la région, par 7 exemple le directeur des programmes de la région, pour 8 être capable de soumettre au réseau aussi. 9 15107 Tout à l'heure, aussi, quand on parle 10 de régions, évidemment quand on parle de régions par 11 Téléfilm... vous avez sonné le mot "Téléfilm"; on a le 12 même problème que les autres qui sont hors Montréal et 13 hors Toronto; quand on parle des régions par rapport à 14 Téléfilm, c'est hors Montréal et hors Toronto. Alors 15 les producteurs qui sont en région, que ce soit Québec 16 ou dans l'est ou dans l'ouest, c'est la même 17 problématique. 18 15108 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Alors, si 19 on reste dans la capitale, on parle, si j'ai bien 20 compris, d'une plus grande présence de la production 21 régionale dans la région et sur le réseau, les réseaux 22 francophones. 23 15109 Mme PAGÉ: Exactement. Exactement. 24 15110 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Et pour y 25 arriver vous proposez certains règlements. Vous nous StenoTran 3171 1 dites que c'est vers nous qu'il faut tourner pour ça 2 mais, en ce qui concerne le contenu de ce cadre 3 réglementaire, vous aimeriez que le Conseil adopte... 4 vous suggérez que des exigences en contenu canadien 5 soient imposées aux heures de grande écoute. 6 15111 Comme vous le savez, il existe déjà 7 une exigence que les télédiffuseurs diffusent 50 pour 8 cent du contenu canadien durant ces heures. Alors 9 votre demande vise-t-elle spécifiquement une exigence 10 en contenu canadien de programmation de type local à 11 l'intérieur de ce règlement déjà existant ou est-ce que 12 vous avez d'autres suggestions à nous faire? 13 15112 M. McGOLDRICK: Évidemment, plus il y 14 a un contenu canadien large, plus à ce moment-là il y a 15 des possibilités pour tous les producteurs. 16 15113 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Vous 17 demandez un contenu canadien plus large que 50 pour 18 cent? 19 15114 M. McGOLDRICK: Non. Plus il y en a, 20 évidemment, ça fait notre affaire, mais ce n'est pas 21 dans le sens de notre préoccupation à nous. De toute 22 façon, ce n'est pas dans notre pouvoir de le faire. 23 Mais, s'il y en a, je pense que là, lorsqu'il y en a, 24 du contenu canadien, à ce moment-là, notre intérêt... 25 15115 Mme PAGÉ: Ce qui est important pour StenoTran 3172 1 une activité de "productariat" plus grande, c'est... on 2 s'est rendu compte, par exemple, que les décideurs 3 locaux offrent, au niveau de leur grille horaire, une 4 possibilité de diffusion des productions locales ou 5 régionales, même sur le réseau, à des heures qui ne 6 sont pas du prime time. Quand on sait que ce n'est pas 7 du prime time, on ne peut pas financer selon les voies 8 normales de financement du prime time comme avec 9 Téléfilm, les fonds et tout ça. 10 15116 Alors ça cause un problème donc de 11 production énorme. Évidemment, comme la production ne 12 va pas toujours avec les ressources financières, à un 13 moment donné il y a un minimum. 14 15117 Alors ça nous confronte à une 15 problématique de ne pas être... si on n'est pas dans le 16 prime time. 17 15118 La question, c'est: Est-ce qu'on 18 considère, par exemple, que le prime time peut être à 19 partir de 5 h 00? On se rend compte que si on regarde 20 la télé attentivement, les productions régionales, même 21 si elles sont faites en région et sont même diffusées à 22 travers les réseaux, ce sont dans des heures qui ne 23 sont pas dans le prime time. Alors c'est une 24 difficulté supplémentaire. 25 15119 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Alors vous StenoTran 3173 1 recommandez certains incitatifs aussi, peut-être, pour 2 insister que, pour la programmation régionale ou 3 locale -- il faut être plus clairs sur de quoi on parle 4 quand on dit "locale" aussi -- soit diffusée aux heures 5 de grande écoute. Est-ce que c'est le genre de 6 conditions que vous proposez? 7 15120 Mme PAGÉ: Il y a deux façons de faire 8 les choses: qu'elle soit diffusée aux heures de grande 9 écoute ou qu'on élargisse, par exemple, l'heure de 10 grande écoute dans la définition d'"heures de grande 11 écoute" d'une part. Il y a une autre possibilité 12 aussi, et c'est: est-ce qu'il est possible de 13 considérer les productions régionales comme une 14 catégorie en soi qui soit admissible au financement? 15 15121 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: C'est quoi, 16 la définition, alors, de ce genre de productions? 17 15122 Mme PAGÉ: Quand on parle de genre, on 18 parle des dramatiques, des émissions pour enfants, des 19 variétés, et un genre qui serait les productions 20 régionales pour leur permettre d'avoir accès au 21 financement. Ce n'est pas dans le contenu, mais 22 c'est... 23 15123 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Et c'est 24 une production qui peut être pas juste un documentaire, 25 une nouvelle, mais du divertissement... StenoTran 3174 1 15124 Mme PAGÉ: De différentes catégories, 2 c'est ça. Finalement, c'est une sous-catégorie. 3 15125 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Pour 4 revenir avec la production régionale, qui est non 5 seulement les nouvelles mais d'autres types de 6 productions... c'est ça que vous recherchez? 7 15126 Mme PAGÉ: Exact. 8 15127 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Alors vous 9 allez dire à l'intérieur du contenu canadien déjà 10 existant, le règlement qui dit 50 pour cent, dans le 11 marché francophone, qui est un marché distinct, c'est 12 tout ce qu'on a pour le moment. L'APFTQ a recommandé, 13 comme vous le savez probablement, d'autres moyens, par 14 exemple les crédits pour certains types de 15 programmation aux heures de grande écoute. 16 15128 Comment vous insérez les productions 17 locales là-dedans? Est-ce que vous êtes d'accord avec 18 l'APFTQ en termes de ce genre d'incitatif pour la 19 programmation locale? 20 15129 Mme PAGÉ: Je vais avoir de la 21 difficulté à me prononcer parce que je n'ai pas vu le 22 libellé de ce projet-là. Il y a des incitatifs qui ont 23 été demandés au niveau des crédits d'impôt pour les 24 productions qui sont faites en région, mais ce qu'on 25 nuance, dans ma chaise de producteur qui est en région, StenoTran 3175 1 ce n'est pas la même chose... je suis membre aussi de 2 l'APFTQ, mais ce que je veux, moi, c'est d'être capable 3 de travailler dans ma région. Il y a des ressources, 4 et quand je n'ai pas assez de ressources, je vais aller 5 les chercher, les gens de Montréal, par exemple. 6 15130 Ce qu'on demande actuellement, 7 l'APFTQ, c'est des facilitants pour aller travailler en 8 région. Moi, je vous dis: On en a, du potentiel, en 9 région; il faut avoir d'abord des facilitants pour, par 10 exemple, quand le Fonds -- on s'est habitués à dire le 11 FTCPEC, mais il faut dire le FTC maintenant -- a créé 12 la prime régionale, que ce soit la prime régionale de 5 13 pour cent de financement supplémentaire, ça pouvait 14 créer un mouvement parce que ça devait être appliqué 15 seulement aux gens qui avaient un siège social en 16 région. 17 15131 Alors ça, ça crée une activité 18 économique et ça crée une dynamique dans les régions; 19 ça ne fait pas amener des gens chez nous. 20 15132 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Quand vous 21 parlez de la masse critique de production, qui sont les 22 autres partenaires, les joueurs dans le secteur de la 23 capitale? Quelles synergies vous cherchez pour aller 24 chercher une masse critique de production, ou est-ce 25 qu'il faut aller à Montréal ou est-ce qu'il faut aller StenoTran 3176 1 international, sur les coproductions internationales? 2 Comment on aborde une masse critique de production? 3 15133 M. McGOLDRICK: Je pourrais peut-être 4 juste ajouter, avant que Sylvie donne plus de détails, 5 que justement suite au forum qu'on a eu au mois de mars 6 1997 les gens de la région, les producteurs et tous les 7 artistes, les artisans de la télévision, et caetera, se 8 sont rendu compte de leur force, de leur dynamisme, de 9 leur intérêt à travailler ensemble, et à l'heure 10 actuelle on est en train d'inventorier les faiblesses 11 qu'on a dans les ressources qui manquent. S'il manque 12 quelque chose du côté technique, par exemple, le 13 montage de films, et caetera, on va s'arrêter et on va 14 chercher des solutions à ce problème-là. 15 15134 En d'autres mots, on s'en va donner 16 les ressources et ensuite on va aller chercher, dans un 17 sens, si les règles permettent d'en obtenir, soit du 18 financement ou soit des contrats. À ce moment-là, on 19 va alimenter et donner à la région la chance de 20 produire davantage. 21 15135 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Je le 22 mentionne par ce que c'est un défi qui existe depuis 23 quelque temps de créer une masse critique de production 24 surtout à cause des coûts, mais vous avez aussi 25 certains atouts, peut-être la présence de d'autres StenoTran 3177 1 institutions, la présence du théâtre au Québec qui peut 2 faire en sorte qu'on peut créer cette masse critique. 3 15136 J'aimerais aussi passer sur d'autres 4 suggestions que vous avez faites, et je ne suis pas 5 claire qu'est-ce que ça veut dire. 6 15137 À la page 6, le premier paragraphe: 7 "Pour ces mêmes raisons, la 8 Chambre estime que ces 9 modifications faciliteraient aux 10 producteurs indépendants hors 11 zones métropolitaines l'accès 12 aux licences de diffusion et, 13 par conséquent, aux divers 14 programmes de financement 15 offerts par les gouvernements et 16 les organismes gouvernementaux 17 ou privés." 18 15138 Pourriez-vous me dire qu'est-ce que 19 ça veut dire exactement? 20 15139 Mme PAGÉ: En fait, ce n'est pas moi 21 qui ai rédigé ce mémoire-là, mais je pense 22 qu'essentiellement ça explique un petit peu ce que 23 j'énonçais tout à l'heure en disant qu'effectivement il 24 faut avoir accès aux licences de diffusion, donc il 25 faut avoir un incitatif, il faut aller dans les têtes StenoTran 3178 1 de réseaux pour dire: "Je dois faire tant d'émissions 2 canadiennes avec tant de contenu canadien, je dois 3 aussi aller chercher des productions qui seront 4 produites en région." 5 15140 Donc il y a un incitatif ou une 6 obligation pour les diffuseurs d'aller chercher 7 carrément... c'est ça. C'est ça que ça veut dire. 8 15141 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Moi, j'ai 9 lu ça comme disant qu'on suggère que les producteurs 10 indépendants et les productrices indépendantes 11 deviennent le télédiffuseur en allant chercher des 12 licences. 13 15142 Mme PAGÉ: Non. Non. 14 15143 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Ce n'est 15 pas ça que vous voulez dire? 16 15144 Mme PAGÉ: Non. Ce n'est pas, je 17 pense, ce que le mémoire dit. 18 15145 M. McGOLDRICK: Non, je ne pense pas 19 que ce soit ça, mais l'ambiguïté est dans le texte. 20 15146 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: C'est 21 plutôt qu'il y a des obligations d'aller chercher cette 22 production régionale, et dans ce sens-là il y a 23 beaucoup de discussions ici, dans les audiences, sur la 24 possibilité que les télédiffuseurs puissent avoir accès 25 au Fonds de production, le Fonds de télévision. StenoTran 3179 1 15147 Est-ce que vous êtes d'accord? On 2 demande de plus en plus... qu'est-ce qu'on suggère 3 comme façon de supporter le financement de cette 4 programmation locale et régionale? 5 15148 Mme PAGÉ: Déjà les diffuseurs se sont 6 immiscés dans les... par exemple, on oblige un 7 pourcentage de licences et ensuite la structure de 8 financement doit être complétée par le producteur 9 indépendant. C'est la façon dont on procède; c'est 10 comme ça que, actuellement, on travaille. 11 15149 Mais de plus en plus le diffuseur va 12 négocier aussi des ententes et dire: C'est un échange 13 par exemple pour aller chercher, nous, nos 14 commanditaires... il faut attirer notre commanditaire. 15 On peut avoir des commerciaux en échange de la 16 visibilité, on a des panneaux d'ouverture et de 17 fermeture, mais ça, ça se négocie déjà. Ça veut dire 18 que, dans le fond, le diffuseur a déjà accès un peu à 19 un montant d'argent supplémentaire parce qu'on doit en 20 plus négocier ça. 21 15150 Ça, c'est au moins notre garantie 22 comme producteur. 23 15151 On a déjà un pourcentage qui varie 24 quelquefois jusqu'à 30, 40 pour cent qu'il faut aller 25 chercher en plus par exemple chez les commanditaires StenoTran 3180 1 indépendants; donc on est tributaires d'une négociation 2 avec le diffuseur. Si en plus on se fait gruger au 3 niveau des fonds, ça cause un réel problème, ça fait un 4 débalancement sur ce qui semble assez bien établi à mon 5 avis. 6 15152 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: J'ai une 7 autre question sur la page 6 qui revient à un point 8 très important aussi. Au deuxième paragraphe vous 9 dites que la chambre considère qu'appliquées à 10 l'ensemble du Canada ces modifications pourraient 11 grandement contribuer à dynamiser et à positionner sur 12 le marché mondial une industrie qui doit 13 continuellement se démarquer et s'affirmer face à 14 l'emprise télévisuelle de nos voisins du sud. Mais on 15 parle surtout du marché francophone dans cette 16 présentation; en fait, plus étroitement, du marché de 17 la capitale du Québec et la production régionale qui en 18 sort. On parle aussi très clairement de la distinction 19 de ce marché francophone. 20 15153 Comment ces mêmes modifications aux 21 conditions de licence, cette politique peut être 22 appliquée à l'ensemble du Canada si le marché 23 francophone est tellement distinct? On voit encore que 24 ça devrait être appliqué partout. Est-ce que j'ai mal 25 compris? StenoTran 3181 1 15154 M. McGOLDRICK: Il y a peut-être, 2 justement, une ambiguïté. Je pense que, si le CRTC, 3 évidemment, dans sa réflexion considère le nouveau 4 contexte dans lequel la télévision de demain ou les 5 communications de demain vont se faire à l'échelle 6 mondiale avec ce brassage, finalement, des cultures, ce 7 choc des cultures, et caetera... que les modifications 8 qu'ils pourraient faire dans un sens pour répondre aux 9 attentes actuelles des régions, ce profil-là ou cette 10 structure-là pourrait être utile évidemment dans 11 l'ouest canadien ou dans les maritimes, et caetera. En 12 d'autres mots, ça pourrait vous servir aussi, pour 13 répondre à l'objectif qui vous a été donné, je pense, 14 que la télévision reflète davantage la culture. Et, à 15 ce moment-là, une fois que toutes ces choses-là ont la 16 chance de se développer, je pense, que ce soit 17 n'importe où dans le monde, si on a quelque chose qui a 18 une valeur universelle, on va pouvoir le vendre 19 l'extérieur. 20 15155 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Je pense 21 que je comprends mieux; le but est le même mais 22 peut-être que les modifications sont différentes, le 23 but étant une présence locale et régionale sur nos 24 réseaux. C'est une autre façon d'améliorer la 25 télévision canadienne... StenoTran 3182 1 15156 M. McGOLDRICK: Oui. 2 15157 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: ... et même 3 dans une atmosphère et dans un environnement globaux. 4 15158 M. McGOLDRICK: C'est ça. 5 15159 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: C'est un 6 point important parce que, comme vous savez, on a 7 rencontré durant le mois de juin beaucoup de Canadiens 8 dans plusieurs villes au Canada et, comme Mme la 9 Présidente a mentionné tantôt, c'est une réflexion, 10 c'est un besoin important qu'on a entendu pour avoir 11 plus de programmation et de production locales ou 12 régionales. 13 15160 Là, je rentre dans les définitions, 14 qu'est-ce que ça veut dire. Ça peut vouloir dire les 15 nouvelles locales, ça peut aller dans votre cas jusqu'à 16 un certain type de production qui vient d'un autre 17 secteur de la province du Québec, ça peut aussi toucher 18 aux francophones à l'extérieur de la province du 19 Québec. 20 15161 Je pense que je comprends mieux ce 21 que vous... 22 15162 Mme PAGÉ: Je dirais même que moi, mon 23 regard se pose davantage aussi, avec la problématique 24 des producteurs indépendants... anglophones également. 25 Quand on est hors région, quand on dit "hors région" au StenoTran 3183 1 niveau de la production indépendante, c'est hors 2 Montréal et hors Toronto, et il y a une problématique 3 qui est la même. 4 15163 Il y a, par exemple, des belles 5 choses qui arrivent, comme "Anne et la maison aux 6 pignons verts", qui a été exportée... et je me souviens 7 d'avoir vu l'équipe de production qui était à Cannes 8 avec leurs blousons, très fiers d'être capables de la 9 vendre à travers des pays du monde. Ça a été des 10 coproductions qui ont été faites avec des gens... je ne 11 voudrais pas faire d'erreur, mais en principe une 12 coproduction montréalaise et des gens de l'est 13 également. 14 15164 Alors ce que je dis, c'est qu'en nous 15 donnant les moyens, comme producteurs indépendants, 16 dans les régions, même à travers le Canada, on bonifie 17 dans le fond, on permet les moyens financiers... donc 18 par des licences, obligations de licence, on permet de 19 faire refléter toute la culture et de faire créer des 20 choses magnifiques qui sont très exportables. 21 15165 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Une 22 dernière question. Est-ce que vous trouvez que les 23 services spécialisés jouent un rôle là-dedans? 24 15166 Mme PAGÉ: Absolument. Eh, que vous 25 êtes gentille, parce que j'avais une petite note StenoTran 3184 1 là-dessus tantôt. 2 15167 Je pense qu'effectivement le CRTC, 3 vous avez donc des exigences pour les stations locales, 4 et ce qui serait pertinent, c'est qu'il y aurait des 5 exigences à l'égard des canaux spécialisés pour les 6 productions régionales également, parce que les canaux 7 spécialisés, notamment, quand ce n'est pas pour des 8 nouvelles... je pense à Canal D, je pense à Canal Vie; 9 ils ne font pas de la nouvelle, et Dieu merci. Alors 10 s'ils ont des obligations de production en région, on 11 ne nous demandera pas de faire des nouvelles, on va 12 nous demander plutôt des séries et tout ça. 13 15168 Effectivement, compte tenu qu'ils 14 vont chercher de l'argent aussi par la 15 câblodistribution, par les payeurs de taxes, et 16 caetera, je pense que ce serait une bonne chose qu'ils 17 aient une obligation. 18 15169 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Mais, 19 pensant qu'un certain pourcentage, qui est assez haut 20 pour la province de Québec, n'ont pas le câble, est-ce 21 que vous ne trouvez pas qu'il faut aussi pencher sur la 22 télévision conventionnelle privée? 23 15170 Mme PAGÉ: Tout à l'heure, évidemment, 24 je vous parlais de la télévision conventionnelle quand 25 on parle essentiellement des obligations, mais je pense StenoTran 3185 1 que, oui, peut-être que les obligations devraient être 2 moindres, mais le regard et l'impact culturel des 3 canaux spécialisés sont très importants, et je pense 4 que ce sont des types de télévision qui pourraient se 5 faire alimenter par des producteurs en région. 6 15171 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: En 7 conclusion, j'entends deux choses. J'entends que vous 8 voulez faire plus de production indépendante dans la 9 région où vous vivez, mais j'entends aussi une 10 possibilité plus élargie pour que ces productions 11 puissent être vues dans la région et partout. 12 15172 Mme PAGÉ: Exact. 13 15173 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: C'est le 14 dernier point qui est très important pour nous: Si 15 vous étiez ici, quelles sont les priorités? Qu'est-ce 16 qu'on fait? 17 15174 Mme PAGÉ: Si j'étais à votre place? 18 15175 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: C'est ça. 19 15176 Mme PAGÉ: Qu'est-ce qu'on fait... 20 15177 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Il faut 21 faire un résumé maintenant des points précis qui, vous 22 suggérez, peuvent vraiment augmenter la présence de la 23 production régionale. 24 15178 On prend pour acquis pour un moment 25 qu'il y a plus de moyens disponibles dans le secteur StenoTran 3186 1 indépendant; ça, c'est un but, l'épanouissement du 2 secteur indépendant. Mais le but que je voulais 3 discuter, c'est que ces productions sont vues à la 4 télévision dans la région, à la télévision à Montréal 5 et peut-être à l'extérieur de la province. 6 15179 Quelle est la priorité? Qu'est-ce 7 qu'on fait, une étape après l'autre? Parce que vous 8 dites que ce n'est pas suffisant dans le moment. 9 15180 Mme PAGÉ: C'est l'obligation chez les 10 diffuseurs d'avoir un créneau. Est-ce que c'est un 11 créneau production régionale? Comme on a une 12 obligation d'avoir un pourcentage de contenu canadien, 13 on aurait une obligation de contenu régional produit 14 par les gens de la région. 15 15181 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: À quel 16 pourcentage? 17 15182 Mme PAGÉ: Je ne sais pas, je ne peux 18 pas vous répondre à ça. 19 15183 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Merci. 20 15184 Mme PAGÉ: Merci à vous. 21 15185 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER: Ce sont 22 toutes mes questions, Madame la Présidente. 23 15186 LA PRÉSIDENTE: Et voilà, Madame Pagé 24 et Monsieur McGoldrick, bon voyage de retour, et nous 25 vous remercions de votre présentation. StenoTran 3187 1 15187 M. McGOLDRICK: Merci. 2 15188 Mme PAGÉ: Merci. 3 1645 4 15189 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary, 5 would you invite the next participant, please? 6 15190 MS SANTERRE: The next presentation 7 will be done by the Chinese Canadian National Council. 8 PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION 9 15191 MR. MA: My name is Jonas Ma, I'm the 10 executive director the Chinese Canadian National 11 Council, and this is our vice-president, Cynthia Pay. 12 15192 MS PAY: Thanks for having us here 13 today. It's our first appearance before you, and I 14 hope not our last. 15 15193 We're a national umbrella 16 organisation representing over 30 chapters across the 17 country. We were formed in 1980, actually in response 18 to a television program on CTV called the "Campus 19 Giveaway." This program depicted Chinese Canadians, 20 but said that they were foreigners and they were taking 21 away places at Canadian universities from so-called 22 "real Canadians." So that led to a national campaign 23 and actually eventually led to the formation of our 24 group. So historically, we have had a strong interest 25 in Canadian broadcasting, and also Canadian StenoTran 3188 1 broadcasting policies. 2 15194 We also support the CRTC's aim of 3 promoting "a wide range of programming that reflects a 4 linguistic duality, and multicultural and multiracial 5 nature of Canadian society." 6 15195 I was glad to hear earlier on that 7 Mr. Tory from Rogers does think that diversity in 8 broadcasting is important. However, the CCNC would 9 disagree with his comment that there has been a great 10 improvement in this area in recent years. 11 15196 It's difficult to measure the impact 12 of not being able to see yourself on TV and to hear 13 about your own stories. According to the 1996 census, 14 Chinese Canadians now measure 920,000 people in Canada, 15 and there are almost 1.4 million East Asian Canadians. 16 15197 We would submit that these numbers 17 are not adequately reflected in broadcast media. 18 Despite the growing size of our community, it's rare to 19 find Asian faces on television or to see dramatic 20 portrayals of our lives. The few Asian characters that 21 do exist tend to reflect negative stereotypes of 22 Asians, such as prostitutes, drug dealers, or kung fu 23 masters. One example of this is the recent CBC comedy 24 program called "Twitch City," and the only Asian 25 characters we saw there were actually drug importers StenoTran 3189 1 who were hiding their products in pineapple cookies in 2 the main character's apartment. 3 15198 So we can't really quantify or give 4 statistics on the impact of this kind of portrayal, but 5 some of our members and ourselves have talked about the 6 impact on them. For example, one of our members from 7 the city of Guelph in Ontario talked about growing up 8 and feeling sort of like a nerd, and wishing that his 9 hair was not so black, and his eyes were rounder, and 10 his features were more western. 11 15199 Another one of our youth members from 12 the Maritimes came to our recent youth conference in 13 Toronto, and she talked about the impact of just simply 14 being in a room with other Chinese Canadians, because 15 many people in non-urban or rural areas grow up in very 16 isolated community with very few other Chinese 17 Canadians. So the lack of representation will have a 18 strong impact on them. Just from my own experience, I 19 also grew up in a small southern Ontario town, and I 20 think as a mixed race or biracial Chinese Canadian had 21 sort of a unique experience. And I can tell you that I 22 also wished I could see more Chinese Canadians on TV. 23 I also had mixed feelings about my own appearance, 24 having lighter hair and sort of thinking that would 25 sort of help me blend into society. And I think I've StenoTran 3190 1 changed my approach to that now, coming here as a 2 Chinese Canadian before you, but I have to tell you 3 that those experiences are very painful to members of 4 our community and, I don't know, like sort of something 5 that doesn't go away when you become an adult. 6 15200 So I've talked a bit about the impact 7 on people living in small communities. I think the 8 same thing exists in large communities, although the 9 number of Chinese Canadians in, say, Toronto and 10 Vancouver is growing and, in fact, we number 16 percent 11 of Vancouver's population, our numbers are still not 12 reflected in broadcast media. 13 15201 I've included a quotation from an 14 article by a 17-year-old Chinese Canadian from Toronto, 15 named Joyce Lau. It was printed in the "Toronto Star" 16 this summer, and she talks about how whenever she saw 17 Chinese Canadians or Asians on television, they were 18 always owning a corner store, or running a Chinese 19 restaurant, or not having any lines. And I guess I 20 could also add that they're more likely to die before 21 the end of the show. But she talks about how she used 22 to sort of laugh it off, but actually she realised how 23 embarrassing that was for her, how painful and it 24 actually made her feel very ashamed of her own 25 heritage. StenoTran 3191 1 15202 So I guess the lack of our 2 representation sort of suggests that we're outsiders, 3 just like the CTV program. We're not real Canadians. 4 The fact that we don't have the close-ups that other 5 people do doesn't sort of make us feel that our looks 6 are somehow normal or are beautiful. The TV does not 7 reflect our community; it doesn't honour our 8 differences; and it also doesn't promote tolerance and 9 knowledge within the mainstream Canadian population. 10 15203 Just one further comment. Also, I 11 think an additional problem is sort of the problem of 12 tokenism, and I would submit that the occasional role 13 or token role also does not solve this problem. We 14 need full, rounded, sort of major, dramatic characters 15 in representation of our stories to have a real impact. 16 15204 And also, I think it's important to 17 note that Chinese Canadians are now the largest visible 18 minority community in Canada, so we're over 25 percent 19 of all visible minorities. 20 15205 We would like to make submissions on 21 two of the questions in your call for submissions 22 focusing on diversity, specifically questions 63 and 23 65. 24 15206 First of all question 63, which asks 25 whether Canadian cultural and racial minorities and StenoTran 3192 1 aboriginal peoples are well-served by mainstream 2 conventional television broadcasters, and what are the 3 most effective ways to ensure that they reflect 4 Canada's diversity. 5 15207 So as you can gather from my 6 comments, we would argue that these broadcasters do not 7 reflect Canada's diversity. Although visible 8 minorities make up over 11 percent of the population in 9 Canada, they aren't appearing in those numbers. 10 Chinese Canadians in particular are not represented. 11 They're not often as the television hosts, or experts, 12 or the centre of dramatic programming. 13 15208 Also, our stories are often ignored 14 or under-reported, and one example of that is the 15 recent story of Indonesia -- the ethnic Chinese people 16 there who were systematically raped and abused. This 17 story was well-documented in the Chinese media, but it 18 was actually quite under-reported and ignored by the 19 mainstream broadcasters. 20 15209 And like I've said, when we are 21 visible, often we're stereotyped or linked to 22 sensationalised news stories, like home invasions or 23 other kind of gang-related crimes. 24 15210 We also link this lack of 25 representation to problems relating to employment StenoTran 3193 1 equity, and I'll talk a bit about that more in detail. 2 15211 I've also made some arguments around 3 the fact that diverse programming or programming that 4 shows Canada's society as it actually is could actually 5 be quite commercially viable. 6 15212 Earlier on, we heard some discussion 7 of some of the stations, like the Speedvision or Golf 8 networks, and I'm sure that fewer than 11 percent of 9 the population plays golf or is fascinated by speed 10 boats and things like that. Also, I think those kind 11 of programs could maybe be more popular in 12 international broadcast markets, because probably the 13 content and the people shown might be actually more 14 attractive to those buyers. 15 15213 So we have a few specific 16 recommendations on this question. 17 15214 The first one relates to public 18 funding or production funding. We argue that ideally 19 there would be additional funds directed at producing 20 more diverse programming, but if this isn't available, 21 we would also argue that what funds are available 22 should be targeted to equity-seeking groups, and at 23 least, for example, if they are 11 percent of the 24 population if it is a minority, that at least that 25 percentage of funds should be targeted towards those StenoTran 3194 1 groups. We would also suggest that because of the poor 2 record of mainstream broadcasters in producing 3 representative and diverse work, that this money be 4 directed more to independent producers. 5 15215 Our second recommendation is that 6 both exhibition and private funding be also directed to 7 this diverse or equity programming. These kind of 8 requirements could be calculated in a way similar to 9 that of Canadian content, for example, a minimum 10 percentage of advertising revenues could be directed to 11 equity programming, and monitoring and enforcement 12 could be done in the same way. 13 15216 A third recommendation is that 14 various incentives should be given to private 15 broadcasters to produce more of this type of 16 programming. These also could be structured in a way 17 similar to that for Canadian content, for example, 18 giving people extra time credits for scheduling this 19 type of programming in peak viewing hours. Also, 20 trade-offs could be made between certain types of 21 requirements in exchange for promoting more diverse 22 programming. 23 15217 Finally, we would also recommend that 24 specialty stations not be used as sort of a stop gap or 25 alternative to improvement in mainstream broadcasting. StenoTran 3195 1 We argue that the range of stations that have been 2 improved in recent years is too narrow, and doesn't 3 reflect the Canadian population. 4 15218 Also, sort of ethnic or token 5 broadcasters doesn't solve the problem either, because 6 some of them don't have Canadian programming, and also 7 some of them aren't in English. 8 15219 So we would also like to make some 9 comments with respect to question 65, whether the 10 Commission's policies dealing with other social 11 concerns are effective. We would submit that the focus 12 on self-regulation and an individual complaint-driven 13 process appear ineffective to our community and to 14 other communities that they're aimed at protecting. 15 15220 First of all, the policies are not 16 well-known among the public, especially within 17 marginalised communities. Until recently, visible 18 minority communities haven't had much input into how 19 these policies are designed or implemented. Also, the 20 practises of hearings and limited availability of 21 documents do limit access to disadvantaged groups. 22 Despite that, we are still here. 23 15221 Also, we would argue that the 24 self-regulation framework that exists is ineffective to 25 address these kinds of social concerns. First of all, StenoTran 3196 1 individual complaints tend to focus on very isolated 2 incidents instead of looking at the broader, systemic 3 situation whether people are represented or even 4 present in broadcasting. 5 15222 Secondly, because of the lack of 6 resources in sort of public interest groups, only sort 7 of impressionistic information is available to document 8 these types of systemic problems, such as the lack of 9 representation. 10 15223 Finally, employment equity 11 information is available under the Employment Equity 12 Act, but the CRTC doesn't seem to take any action on 13 this basis. For example, in 1996, only 4.4 percent of 14 employees in the telecommunication broadcasting sector 15 were members of visible minorities and, as I've already 16 said, actually in the population, they make up 11 17 percent of the population. 18 1648 19 15224 In particular, we noted that the CBC 20 and CTV received the lowest possible ranking on the 21 situation of visible minorities in their workplace. 22 And especially for a public broadcaster, this seems 23 unacceptable. 24 15225 We have a few specific 25 recommendations. Firstly, that the CRTC provide more StenoTran 3197 1 outreach and education about its policies, especially 2 to marginalized communities so that its processes and 3 procedures can become more accessible to them. Also 4 accessibility should be promoted by funding these 5 groups to attend hearings and also to make submissions. 6 15226 Secondly, we argue that appointments 7 to the CRTC should reflect the diversity of Canada. We 8 understand that appointments are made to ensure that 9 there is linguistic and geographical representation and 10 we feel that it should also reflect the population of 11 the entire country. 12 15227 We also argue that the CRTC should be 13 more proactive in enforcing its policies. Instead of 14 relying on individual complaints, there should be more 15 active monitoring for compliance and also action should 16 be taken. For example, under the Employment Equity 17 Act. This Act does provide for fines against all 18 employers who don`t meet its requirements to file 19 reports. But the CRTC could take that one step further 20 by looking at broadcasters and linking this to 21 licensing or any other kind of sanction or reward. 22 15228 Finally, we would recommend that the 23 Commission establish a special task force aimed at 24 looking at racial representation and stereotapes in 25 television. This could be done in a similar way to the StenoTran 3198 1 previous Sex-Role Stereotyping Commission. It should 2 provide concrete policies and strategies in dealing 3 with problems of representation and also consult with 4 community groups like ours to provide some of our 5 expertise in this area. 6 15229 So those are our submissions and we 7 would be happy to answer any questions. 8 15230 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Pay 9 and Mr. Ma. Commissioner Cardozo. 10 15231 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Thanks, Madam 11 Chair. Thanks, Ms. Pay and Mr. Ma. Thanks for coming 12 from Ottawa for this and, hopefully, by the end of the 13 session you will be convinced that it was worth your 14 trip and that you will come back again. And, if you're 15 not, I hope you will let us know. 16 15232 Let me start first with the issue of 17 the task force that you mentioned in your last 18 recommendation and what I'm going to do is I've got a 19 few questions I would like to go through, based 20 primarily on your written submission, but I think we'll 21 cover most of the issues you have mentioned today. If 22 we don't, feel free to add them in at any point. 23 15233 Now with regards to the task force, 24 maybe you can be a little more concrete in terms of 25 offering us a model which was the model we used in the StenoTran 3199 1 Sex-Role Stereotyping Task Force some years back. 2 15234 Do you have any suggestions as to who 3 would be part of it or who we ought to be hearing from 4 or involving in such a task force? 5 15235 MS PAY: You mean from the wider 6 community or from the Commission? 7 15236 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, I mean 8 outside of the Commission, but who outside of the 9 Commission ought to be a part of that process? 10 15237 MS PAY: I think the consultation 11 should be as wide as possible, so groups like ourselves 12 that represent specific ethnic groups and have a 13 national base. Also other equity-seeking groups. So I 14 think ranging from other ethnic specific groups to 15 organizations that focus on race relations to also 16 other equity-seeking groups like gays and lesbians, 17 women who incorporate -- 18 15238 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Would you see, 19 I'm thinking more of once you have covered the 20 equity-seeking groups, would you also look at having 21 the broadcasters and producers and the people that do 22 the stuff as part of that? 23 15239 MR. MA: Definitely, because they are 24 the ones who have to implement -- well, we can look at 25 the reality of industry and to see what other current StenoTran 3200 1 system right now and to what degree the things that we 2 recommended by the task force can be implemented. 3 15240 Another group that I think that would 4 be very interesting is artists, film makers from the 5 visible minority community. In fact, this year we're 6 going to prepare media awards and this is very timely. 7 We are inviting some of these film makers from our 8 community to join us to tell us the kind of issues that 9 they identify in media, in film and in television. 10 Because we need to have people who can express the kind 11 of concerns and the kinds of issues from the point of 12 view of a visible minority. And I think their input 13 will be also very important. 14 15241 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Lest I forget, 15 you mentioned several artists and producers from the 16 Chinese community. Are we talking a lot of people? 17 Are there a lot of people in the community who are 18 doing film production? 19 15242 MR. MA: Not as many as the number 20 that we have should reflect, but I guess there's an 21 increasing number of young people who are interested in 22 media and film in this area, yes. 23 15243 MS PAY: I just want to add, though, 24 that I think the number is not reflected in their 25 access to broadcasting. Their work is not shown on StenoTran 3201 1 television. 2 15244 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The only one I 3 am aware of, this is my ignorance showing, but I 4 believe is Doris Lau who did "Under the Willow Tree"? 5 15245 MR. MA: Doris Nitt, yes. I remember 6 last year there's a film festival called "Reel Asian," 7 R-E-E-L. There's about 30-some films in that film 8 festival that was held in Toronto. 9 15246 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And these are 10 films that were made in Canada. 11 15247 MR. MA: Not all of them. Actually, 12 that's the point I want to make. Out of the 30-some 13 films, only six or seven are made in Canada. The rest 14 have come from the States. In fact, the States has 15 done a better job of having sort of an Asian-American 16 kind of film industry, mini-industry, I guess. 17 15248 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, in your 18 written brief, you also talked about anti-racism 19 training for reporters and media personnel. Is that an 20 issue you would see looked at under such a task force? 21 15249 MS PAY: That could be one of the 22 recommendations that would come out of it. I think it 23 would look at both proactive things like that as well 24 as what the existing situation is. But I know one of 25 the concerns might be where resources for that kind of StenoTran 3202 1 work would be done and I think -- I don't know. I 2 think that broadcasters are given a public resource as 3 a privilege and it is a profitable industry for them so 4 they could be required to provide funding for that kind 5 of thing. So, definitely, I think that kind of work 6 would be very important. 7 15250 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. In 8 terms of the funds in your written brief and today, you 9 have talked about two things. One is having a certain 10 amount set aside for diversity programming and the 11 other was auditing the fund to see how much they spent 12 on diversity programming. There are a couple of things 13 here that come to mind. One is funding that would go 14 to minority producers to, in quotes, tell their stories 15 as with other producers. And "Under the Willow Tree" 16 comes to mind as a story of, I think it was five or six 17 Chinese Canadian women over something like a century. 18 15251 The other side of it is funding to 19 the programs that we do see on television now and 20 seeing that they reflect a diversity in their make-up. 21 We had somebody here from YTV a few days ago and we 22 asked them about how they did it and their answer was 23 simply that when they see their cast, they make sure 24 that there is a cross section of kids in the cast. 25 15252 So what you have got, whatever that StenoTran 3203 1 type of programming they are doing, they are making 2 sure that the actors reflect a diversity. 3 15253 So those are two different kinds of 4 things. If you set aside 11 per cent or some 5 percentage, then are you saying that it's only these 6 people who get funding from that 11 per cent who are 7 minority producers should reflect diversity and the 8 other should not? Or is it better to leave that amount 9 loose but focus more on the reflection and more 10 programming? 11 15254 MS PAY: I would argue that the 12 approach of providing funding to the producers who are 13 from diverse communities might be more effective. I'm 14 not sure how YTV's approach works, but I think 15 sometimes that can result in sort of a token-istic 16 situation where people are sort of stuck in to make 17 sure -- I mean I think it's a good approach to have 18 representation but people have to be there behind the 19 scenes because they are the ones who are telling the 20 story. You can't just sort of slot in a Chinese 21 Canadian and then say, well, they are represented. I 22 think there has to be equal sort of input behind the 23 scenes. I think one of the ways to ensure that is to 24 provide it to the producers. 25 1507 StenoTran 3204 1 15255 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: So if you had 2 a production team, let's say YTV just as an example, 3 would you want the producer to be a visible minority or 4 would you want them to include in their production 5 theme whether in the leading role or not visible 6 minorities? 7 15256 MS PAY: I guess the main thing would 8 be -- 9 15257 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: If you haven't 10 given this full thought, feel free to say so. I'm just 11 throwing these out as ideas that one would have to 12 think through. 13 15258 MS PAY: It could get very 14 complicated in who should get this funding. I can see 15 the potential problems, but I guess the main points 16 would be that people who have some kind of creative 17 input, whether they're a writer or producer, director, 18 anybody who is involved in the making of it, to be the 19 ones who say what the story is, to tell the story. So 20 I think there would have to be a substantial 21 contribution there but I don't know how. It would be 22 relatively complicated to set out the rules for that. 23 I can see the problem. 24 15259 MR. MA: I guess what I would like to 25 add is I guess the funding for producers and film StenoTran 3205 1 makers and artists from visible minority communities to 2 tell their own story is a good way to help them start 3 it. Because if there is no such support, they don't 4 even have any access to participating in the film or 5 the media industry. So once they have that kind of 6 experience, once they gain that expertise, then I think 7 that they should be part of the regular programming 8 that I guess YTV was talking about. But we just worry 9 that if we start out with a very few people in the 10 industry and then suddenly now one-half representation 11 and we stop plugging people into the slot because they 12 want to fill their quota, then the people won't have 13 the skills, won't have that kind of expertise that they 14 can be able to integrate in the industry easily. I 15 think that the idea of having some kind of a 16 programming that caters to them would help them gain an 17 expertise and eventually they can just integrate into 18 the industry. 19 15260 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, let me 20 move to employment equity. The situation now is since 21 the -- I guess the original Act of 1986 was relatively 22 vague as to who had responsibility for implementing 23 employment equity. But the more recent Act of, I think 24 it's '95, was more clear and so the Human Rights 25 Commission had the responsibility for monitoring StenoTran 3206 1 employment equity. 2 15261 As a result of it, the CRTC's role in 3 implementing employment equity has been reduced to 4 those who don't come under the Act; namely, employers 5 with a hundred employees or less. 6 15262 In light of that, what's your 7 comments about what we should be doing about employment 8 equity? 9 15263 MS PAY: One example of something you 10 could do I guess without stepping into the jurisdiction 11 of the Human Rights Commission is to provide an 12 incentive-type program so that broadcasters who do show 13 improvement in that area, for example, could have 14 somewhat relaxed regulation, sort of regulatory 15 requirements in other areas. So instead of having kind 16 of a punitive system where you're monitoring and 17 punishing the people, providing incentives would be one 18 way. 19 15264 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In terms of 20 the employers that we cover, those with a hundred 21 employees and less, what kind of information are you 22 interested in having? Or do you think we should be 23 looking at? 24 15265 MS PAY: I think the type of 25 information covered by the Employment Equity Act was StenoTran 3207 1 quite interesting but I think more detail would be even 2 more helpful. 3 15266 How they looked at the broadcasters 4 who they do cover, they merely provided sort of 5 rankings from A to B or C and whether the broadcasters 6 had improved in the numbers and where those people are. 7 So it's quite vague and they are the ones who determine 8 the grading system. 9 15267 So I think it would be interesting 10 for us as a community group to see the specific detail 11 on how many people are actually working there and 12 actually the breakdown as well. 13 15268 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay, the 14 rankings you mentioned, those are the rankings provided 15 by -- 16 15269 MS PAY: It's in the Annual Report 17 from Human Resources and Development. 18 15270 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Okay. Now on 19 the reflection of Chinese Canadians, you mentioned the 20 numbers and that's very helpful. I was going to ask 21 you about that. But, for the record, what's your sense 22 of the range of professions that Chinese Canadians are 23 involved in? 24 15271 MS PAY: In the media or in the wider 25 Canadian -- StenoTran 3208 1 15272 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: In life. 2 15273 MS PAY: There is an over 3 concentration of Chinese Canadians in certain sectors, 4 like services and fewer in senior management roles. 5 But it's not a huge gap and there is wide diversity 6 within the Chinese Canadian community. So, for 7 example, the fact that they aren't shown as sort of 8 experts on the news in any kind of field, people are 9 there. They exist and they could be found but I don't 10 think an effort is made to find them because the people 11 looking don't think, well, let's look for a Chinese 12 Canadian person. They just look for somebody who looks 13 like themselves, right? 14 15274 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Well, I have, 15 though, in the past while noticed a few more as experts 16 in the business news on Newsworld. Have you noticed 17 that too? People who are being interviewed a financial 18 market experts? 19 15275 MS PAY: Maybe that's because one of 20 the hosts is an East Asian woman, I don't know. 21 15276 MR. MA: Maybe that's also 22 stereotypes of how East Asians in recent years that 23 they are good in business so they are more slotted into 24 that kind of topics they would be interviewed, but not 25 on other topics. StenoTran 3209 1 15277 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: That's a step 2 up from the stereotype of being the drug dealer. 3 15278 MR. MA: There is not totally, I 4 guess, positive, even though, yes, compared to a drug 5 dealer, but we can be seen as ruthless and being very 6 not caring and being very exploitive. That's another 7 kind of stereotype that can be also very negative. 8 15279 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: The ones I 9 recall in the last few months or the last year were 10 just people talking about financial markets. In some 11 cases, again, it was probably because they were talking 12 about the crashing Asian markets. But I think the 13 things that we are talking about are the financial 14 issues as well and they provide us as good television 15 watching as anybody us. 16 15280 But that brings me to the next 17 question which is a reflection in some of the dramatic 18 series that we see, and we see in "Traders" yesterday 19 won I think, at least for the second time, the best 20 dramatic series Gemini, and my sense of the financial 21 markets, given the stereotype, is that there are a 22 number of Asian Canadians in the financial markets but 23 not reflected on something like "Traders," or am I 24 wrong? Are there any Asian characters in "Traders"? 25 15281 MS PAY: I'm afraid I'm not able to StenoTran 3210 1 answer that question. 2 15282 MR. MA: I've seen it maybe once or 3 twice. I haven't seen any Asian characters. 4 15283 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Are there any 5 Asian characters in any of the dramatic series that 6 you're aware of? 7 15284 MR. MA: I think "Degrassi High," I 8 think that one had some. 9 15285 MS PAY: I told you about "Twitch 10 City" which had the drug dealer. There aren't many. I 11 mean that's the problem. There just aren't that many. 12 15286 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And are there 13 actors ready to go into those roles? 14 15287 MR. MA: There are an increasing 15 number of actors and actresses who are ready. 16 15288 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: I just want to 17 touch briefly on the issue of multilingual 18 broadcasting. For your information, we look at a whole 19 bunch of different issues as time goes on and we try to 20 keep each set of issues separately, partly so one can 21 deal with them but partly because the record is a 22 public record and everything that's said about that 23 topic has to be said within that record so that 24 everybody can have access to what is said. 25 15289 I will come back to the issue of StenoTran 3211 1 access to documents in a couple of minutes but what 2 we've done is the issue of multilingual television, 3 which was often called the ethnic broadcasting policy, 4 TV and radio, is subject to a separate review over the 5 next several months. What we're looking at in this 6 review, quite centrally, as we've noted in the -- not 7 very centrally, a number of issues, but clearly one of 8 the issues is the reflection of diversity in English 9 and French broadcasting. Do you see that separation of 10 the two issues? Do you have any thoughts on that? Is 11 that a fair way to look at the two things? 12 15290 MR. MA: I'm afraid I don't quite 13 understand what you mean. Are you talking about the 14 ethnic channels? 15 15291 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: No, the ethnic 16 channels and the multilingual television and radio 17 essentially will come under a separate review. So 18 we're not talking about that today. 19 15292 MR. MA: Today, okay. 20 15293 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: And in this 21 proceeding what we're looking at is more the stuff you 22 have been talking about, which is a reflection of 23 diversity within the English and French networks. Is 24 that dichotomy clear and is that a fair one to make? 25 15294 MS PAY: Well, I suppose it is StenoTran 3212 1 because the English and French are the mainstream 2 broadcasters. So I think the other languages are seen 3 as inherently more diverse. So, for our purposes, it 4 seems a valid distinction. 5 15295 But we also have done work in terms 6 of the ethnic broadcasters within our community because 7 I think just because they are from a minority group 8 doesn't mean they're perfect on issues of diversity 9 themselves. 10 15296 So I think when you're looking at the 11 ethnic broadcasters, it would be interesting to also 12 look at questions of diversity and not just ethnic 13 diversity but things around gay and lesbian issues or 14 disability issues, that kind of thing, would be another 15 level to look at. 16 15297 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Gender issues? 17 15298 MS PAY: Gender, yes. 18 15299 MR. MA: And also Canadian content, 19 because I remember the CCNC some years ago made an 20 intervention on the license of a Chinese station on the 21 issues that there was not enough programming on 22 Canadian issues and content, because a lot of the 23 programs were imported from Asia and not reflecting the 24 fact that people living here now and they should be 25 more concerned about what's going on around them. StenoTran 3213 1 1715 2 15300 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: Hold that 3 thought and we will come back to it. 4 15301 MR. MA: But I think the idea of 5 separating the two is fair enough because I can see 6 that because the ethnic broadcasting and the 7 multilingual channel cater more to the first generation 8 and the mainstream English-French channels cater to the 9 second generation, which they see themselves -- this is 10 the channel they watch and these are the issues they 11 are concerned about. So, it is not the ethnic channel 12 that they watch. 13 15302 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: These are the 14 CBCs? 15 15303 MR. MA: Right. 16 15304 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: For the 17 information of my colleagues that's "Canadian Born 18 Chinese," the other CBCs. 19 15305 Let me mention a few other things. 20 The one thing I will add that you have added to date to 21 our look at this issue is the nuance of the role of 22 minority producers in the English and French-language 23 broadcasting system, so I thank you for that. 24 15306 In terms of access to documents, a 25 couple of things to note. We have as early as of a StenoTran 3214 1 couple of months ago a documentation centre in Toronto 2 which is at the office of Commissioner Wilson who is 3 the Ontario Regional Commissioner, so make sure you get 4 around to that and there may be more such things, 5 depending on the success of that. 6 15307 In terms of outreach, in this process 7 we had hearings. We had roundtables in a number of 8 cities in the month of June. In our notice it is noted 9 that people who wanted to appear and who wanted to 10 participate in this hearing but were not able to come 11 here we could hear them by telephone conference call. 12 I don't know if you knew that. You probably could have 13 saved a bundle of dough, but are those sorts of things 14 helpful in terms of reaching out to people? 15 15308 We have a website too. I don't know 16 if you have visited the website. 17 15309 MS PAY: I think it is helpful, but I 18 think just common sense says that when you have a 19 person face-to-face and you are able to talk to them I 20 think it would have more impact. I don't know, I would 21 argue still for some kind of subsidy or provision of 22 funding for non-profit groups to be able to personally 23 attend the hearings. 24 15310 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO: All right. 25 15311 Under that we haven't done that kind StenoTran 3215 1 of funding in the past. We operate under two Acts of 2 Parliament. One is the Telecommunications Act and one 3 is the Broadcasting. 4 15312 Under the Telecommunications Act 5 there is a process where costs can be awarded to 6 certain not for profit parties, which are awarded 7 against the other participants. In fact, the corporate 8 participants pay. 9 15313 We don't have that ability under the 10 Broadcasting Act, which is why the issue has been 11 raised by a few other participants, which is why we 12 haven't been able to do it here. I just want to let 13 you know about that. On that issue and on the 14 appointments issue it's a political issue, so talk to 15 them about those issues. 16 15314 Those cover my comments and 17 questions. Thank you, Madam Chair. 18 15315 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner 19 Wilson. 20 15316 COMMISSIONER WILSON: I have really a 21 quick comments and that is I want to thank you for your 22 input. I expect that we will see you and please feel 23 free to drop by the Toronto office. 24 15317 I don't know if this is any 25 consolation to you, but being someone who has been StenoTran 3216 1 actively involved in social issues probably earlier on 2 in my career, it is nice -- I don't know if it is nice 3 for you to know this, but the Commission is currently 4 dominated by women, so that's an improvement. 5 15318 I would have to say that the male 6 colleagues on the Commission are very liberated, all of 7 them. 8 15319 As I said, I don't know if that is 9 any consolation, but it certainly made me happy. 10 15320 MR. MA: Maybe one day if there is a 11 task force on sex role it would be helpful and that's 12 what I am hoping, that there is a task force on, 13 visible minority representation. 14 15321 COMMISSIONER WILSON: Somebody was 15 listening obviously. 16 15322 THE CHAIRPERSON: This will give 17 women, both mainstream and minority women, two chances 18 to get better representation, since they presumably 19 will be 51 per cent of the concerns of a task force on 20 racial stereotyping, if we had such a task force. 21 15323 We thank you, Ms Pay and Mr. Ma. 22 Have a good trip back to Toronto. 23 15324 MS PAY: Thank you. 24 15325 MR. MA: Thank you. 25 15326 THE CHAIRPERSON: This will conclude StenoTran 3217 1 today's presentations. We are not sitting tomorrow. 2 We will resume at nine o'clock on Wednesday morning. 3 15327 Ceci termine la journée. Nous ne 4 siégeons pas demain. Nous reprendrons donc à 9 h 00 5 mercredi matin. Bonsoir. 6 --- L'audience est ajournée à 1725, pour reprendre 7 le mercredi 7 octobre, à 0900 / Whereupon 8 the hearing adjourned at 1725, to resume on 9 Wednesday, October 7, 1998, at 0900 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 StenoTran
- Date modified: