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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:


HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Conference Centre                       Centre des conférences
Outaouais Room                          Salle Outaouais
Place du Portage                        Place du Portage
Phase IV                                Phase IV
Hull, Quebec                            Hull (Québec)

October 5, 1998                         5 octobre 1998

                           Volume 10
tel: 613-521-0703          StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668



Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

              Canadian Television Policy Review /
               Examen des politiques du Conseil
             relatives à la télévision canadienne


Andrée Wylie            Chairperson / Présidente
                        Vice-Chairperson, Radio-
                        television / Vice-
                        présidente, Radiodiffusion
Joan Pennefather        Commissioner / Conseillère
Andrew Cardozo          Commissioner / Conseiller
Martha Wilson           Commissioner / Conseillère
David McKendry          Commissioner / Conseiller


Jean-Pierre Blais       Commission Counsel /
                        Avocat du Conseil
Margot Patterson        Articling Student /
Carole Bénard /         Secretaries/Secrétaires
Diane Santerre
Nick Ketchum            Hearing Manager / Gérant de

HELD AT:                TENUE À:

Conference Centre       Centre des conférences
Outaouais Room          Salle Outaouais
Place du Portage        Place du Portage
Phase IV                Phase IV
Hull, Quebec            Hull (Québec)

October 5, 1998         5 octobre 1998

                           Volume 10

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Canadian Labour Congress / Congrès du travail             2978
du Canada and the National Action Committee 
on the Status of Women / Comité canadien 
d'action sur le statut de la femme

ACTRA, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television            3044
and Radio Artists (Performers Guild)

Rogers Cablesystems Limited                               3079

Cancom, Canadian Satellite Communications                 3129
Inc. / Les Communications par satellite
canadien inc.

Chambre de commerce et d'industrie du Québec              3152

Chinese Canadian National Council                         3187



 1                               Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)
 2     --- Upon resuming on Monday, October 5, 1998
 3         at 1105 / L'audience reprend le lundi
 4         5 octobre 1998 à 1105
 5  14273                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning and
 6     welcome back to our hearing, and welcome to those who
 7     are here for the first time.
 8  14274                Madam Secretary, would you please
 9     invite the next participant.
10  14275                Mme SANTERRE:  Merci, Madame la
11     Présidente.
12  14276                The first presentation this morning
13     will be a shared presentation by the Canadian Labour
14     Congress / Congrès du travail du Canada and the
15     National Action Committee on the Status of Women /
16     Comité canadien d'action sur le statut de la femme.
17  14277                You may start now.
19  14278                MS RICHE:  Thank you very much.  My
20     name is Nancy Riche.  I am Executive Vice-President of
21     the Canadian Labour Congress.  We are here with the
22     National Action Committee on the Status of Women, John
23     Grant-Cummings, and on my right is Tom O'Brien of the
24     Communications Department of the Canadian Labour
25     Congress.


 1  14279                We didn't caucus first, so I don't
 2     know who is starting.
 3  14280                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  You can start.
 4  14281                MS RICHE:  I will start?  Okay.
 5  14282                I will read a brief summary of ours
 6     and then turn it over to Joan.
 7  14283                We are not like many of the experts
 8     you have seen over your period of time of hearings. 
 9     However, the Canadian Labour Congress is Canada's
10     central labour body representing 58 national and
11     international unions and 2.3 million workers, and we
12     would add to that their families.
13  14284                Canadian workers have a strong
14     interest in preserving, protecting and promoting
15     Canadian culture through our cultural industries and
16     particularly efforts to increase Canadian content in
17     Canadian television.  The CLC fully supports the goals
18     of the Broadcasting Act and welcomes the review of the
19     Canadian television system.  We urge the Commission to
20     strengthen the Act and to enforce it effectively.
21  14285                Canadian content quotas were put in
22     place in 1959 in order to counteract the tendency of
23     private stations to import American programming.  The
24     regulation succeeded in ensuring that private station
25     programming included some Canadian content.  However,


 1     quotas have also made one thing very clear:  private
 2     broadcasters will use whatever loopholes exist in the
 3     regulations to maximize profits.  In practice, this
 4     means that private television networks will save their
 5     prime time slots for American programming.
 6  14286                Under the existing regulations prime
 7     time programming must include 50 per cent Canadian
 8     content.  The major private stations meet this standard
 9     but only because prime time is defined as 6:00 p.m. to
10     midnight.  Once the news hours of 6:00 p.m. to 7:00
11     p.m. and 11:00 p.m. to 12:00 midnight are removed, the
12     private stations fail miserably.
13  14287                The accompanying charts -- and that's
14     in our brief -- show that in recent broadcasts Baton,
15     CTV, CanWest, Global and other private television
16     corporations aired very few shows of Canadian origin. 
17     Since news segments will be produced in Canada in order
18     to cover Canadian events regardless of the definition
19     of prime time, including the news hours in the prime
20     time definition for the purpose of governing Canadian
21     content has no positive impact.  It is clearly time to
22     redefine "prime time" in order to achieve the goals of
23     the Commission.
24  14288                The Commission's best opportunity to
25     ensure that the Canadian village, to appropriate a


 1     phrase from Marshall McLuhan, isn't dominated by an
 2     American chief lies in regulating the 7:00 to
 3     11:00 p.m. slot.  This time slot, when most Canadians
 4     are watching, provides the best opportunity for
 5     Canadians to share the stories, music, drama and
 6     entertainment, the culture that binds us to our
 7     communities.
 8  14289                Canadians spend more than 20 hours
 9     per week in front of a TV.  It is the most popular
10     voluntary activity in Canada measured in hours.  The
11     average Canadian 12-year-old spends as much time
12     watching television as going to school.  Unbelievably,
13     given the statistics, English-speaking Canada is the
14     only industrialized country in the world where domestic
15     content television is not the primary source of viewing
16     supply for viewers of all ages.
17  14290                When we fail to place high quality
18     Canadian content before Canadian audiences, we are
19     squandering the opportunity to strengthen our culture
20     and celebrate our unique national character.  We have a
21     right to create a culture which embraces the best of
22     who we are.  As it is now regulated, private prime time
23     television broadcasting is diffusing U.S. culture into
24     Canada.
25  14291                As the regulations stand, Canadian


 1     content is determined by a points system which gives
 2     more points to shows which are created with Canadians
 3     serving in senior capacities.  This is good and
 4     necessary, but insufficient.  The points system should
 5     be applied to the actual content of the programs.  We
 6     suggest that such a system could get points for
 7     characters, issues and locations that are clearly
 8     identified as Canadian.
 9  14292                It is not that the shows can't find
10     audiences, the audiences can't find the show.  There is
11     a point to be made here about promotion.  Any competent
12     marketer will confirm the necessity of, one, making
13     your product readily available and, two, promoting it
14     aggressively in order to capture a market for it.  A
15     recent study by the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting
16     found that Canadian television stations in Winnipeg
17     broadcast "The Simpsons" 27 times per week, "Due South"
18     twice and "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" once.  With
19     broadcasting schedules like this, claiming that
20     Canadian shows can't find audiences is a
21     self-fulfilling prophecy.
22  14293                Given the Free Trade Agreements, to
23     which the current and the last federal governments have
24     made Canada party, it is more important than ever that
25     Canadians protect and promote their culture.  Rules


 1     that used to require corporations selling in Canadian
 2     markets to employ Canadians are gone.  While culture is
 3     protected now, the U.S. keeps lodging complaints about
 4     cultural protection.  They recognize that the cultural
 5     protections enjoyed by Canada and France encourage
 6     other nations to restrict U.S. television, film and
 7     music.  They also recognize that their persistence over
 8     the last 50 years has been the key to tearing down
 9     barriers to trade.
10  14294                The government has made the
11     development of the information highway a top priority. 
12     Developing the Canadian branch of the information
13     highway may help to ensure that Canadians keep up with
14     cutting edge communications technology but protecting
15     and growing Canadian culture, cultural talents, skills
16     and products is likely to help us survive as a nation.
17  14295                In sum, the CLC applauds the
18     Commission for its efforts to safeguard and promote
19     Canadian content in the television system, and we
20     encourage the Commission to do everything it can to
21     strengthen both the Broadcasting Act and its
22     enforcement of it.
23  14296                There are other points we might wish
24     to make, but in the interest of time, I am now turning
25     it over to Joan.


 1  14297                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Madam
 2     Riche.
 3  14298                Madam Grant-Cummings.
 4  14299                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Thank you.
 5  14300                NAC would like to start out by saying
 6     that, while many private broadcasters may be well
 7     resourced to participate in these hearings, which are
 8     very, very important I think in terms of Canada's
 9     political and social development, there are many groups
10     that could not be here, Media Watch for one, which has
11     been one of the best watchdogs that this country has
12     seen in terms of women's portrayal, and Media isn't
13     able to be here, and we are here sharing the time of
14     the CLC.
15  14301                We want to focus mainly on the
16     political and the social impact that our current
17     television programming is having on Canadian society. 
18     Just to point to some of the things that make up Canada
19     that we feel are sadly lacking from what has been
20     portrayed as good Canadian television, I think we all
21     recognize that during the nineties the globe has seen
22     an unprecedented advance made in terms of
23     telecommunications mechanisms and technology.  We
24     believe that this has directly impacted society's
25     concept of who we are as men and women, this has


 1     impacted young people, how people of colour are seen,
 2     how aboriginal people are seen.
 3  14302                All of these portrayals within TV and
 4     being able to beam things from a living room in Canada
 5     to somewhere in Zambia or Tuvalu or Jamaica I think has
 6     made our world shrink in one sense, but what it also
 7     has done is to give a particular amount of power to
 8     broadcasters to influence political and social
 9     development within our countries and globally.  I think
10     that is the point that NAC, the women's movement -- and
11     certainly the CLC has also made that point -- would
12     like to make this morning.
13  14303                What we see on our airwaves is not
14     disconnected from how we vote, the community values
15     that seem to rain, it is not disconnected from our
16     trading agreements or our economic system, and we
17     believe that one of the impacts of the globalization of
18     the economy has been to actually shrink the diversity
19     of how culture is viewed and the diversity of political
20     opinions and analysis that we see on our airwaves.
21  14304                Today, as far as women are
22     concerned -- and NAC has 700 member groups across
23     Canada in all the provinces and territories,
24     representing almost 3 million women.  What we hear from
25     women wherever we go is the fact that we don't see our


 1     values, our political views and the kind of development
 2     that we expect Canada to triumph or to champion
 3     reflected in Canadian television.  It is missing to a
 4     great degree still in the public broadcaster, the CBC,
 5     and in terms of private broadcasters we are lucky if
 6     feminist values, for example, or multicultural values
 7     are ever at all mimicked in any of the private
 8     broadcasters.
 9  14305                As far as we are concerned, Canada is
10     a multicultural, multiracial, multiethnic and
11     multilingual country, but I think if a sister or a
12     brother from another planet came here, they would be
13     hard pressed to find that multiculturalism or
14     multi-ethnicity in this country.  What they would see
15     on our Canadian television is largely white male
16     leadership, mainly business, mainly English, some
17     French speaking.  In terms of women they would see
18     largely white women, mainly blond, and they would see a
19     preponderance or a dominance of people of colour or
20     aboriginal peoples depicted as those who engage in
21     criminal activity.
22  14306                In terms of how women are portrayed
23     in the media, although Canada has advanced somewhat,
24     they would also see an acceptance of violence against
25     women as commonplace.  As the United Nations has


 1     pointed out to Canada, in the last year we have
 2     actually seen an increase in the level of violence in
 3     this country against women.  So, while we had some
 4     success in the eighties and early nineties, we are
 5     actually regressing in that step.
 6  14307                I think one of the things that they
 7     would also see is that there is a great debate going on
 8     right now as to what constitutes hate and what is
 9     freedom of speech.  As far as women in this country are
10     concerned, it is hate if it doesn't advance equality,
11     it is hate if it does not find progressive solutions
12     speaking to issues such as racism, homophobia, ableism,
13     ageism and so on.
14  14308                I think that our brother or sister
15     from another planet would be hard pressed to find
16     people with disabilities depicted in any real way in
17     Canadian television and would assume that none existed
18     in society.
19  14309                Canadian content can be very, very
20     exciting, but for it to be exciting to us it has to
21     reflect who we are and all of our values, and that is
22     sadly missing from our Canadian television.  It is
23     there in a better degree within the CBC, but in private
24     broadcasters, if our culture isn't globalization of the
25     economy, embracing that business sense or economic


 1     system, then obviously we are not Canadian because that
 2     is what we see largely.
 3                                                        1115
 4  14310                Women are very discerning and I think
 5     there are two events in this country that told women,
 6     certainly women inside NAC and women inside the CLC
 7     about the lack of regard with regard equality-seeking
 8     women are treated in this country.  In 1996, Canada had
 9     the largest mobilization of women in this country
10     organized by NAC and the CLC, the women's march against
11     poverty.
12  14311                And despite the efforts of expert
13     female journalists, broadcasters and political
14     analysts, not even the CBC tracked march across the
15     country.  And that said a lot to women across this
16     country.
17  14312                Last year in 1997, women organized an
18     all parties federal debate to show our interest in who
19     governs this country -- a very, very serious issue
20     going into the third millennium.
21  14313                Not even the CBC transmitted that
22     debate in its entirely, never mind any other station.
23  14314                As community television shrinks
24     further more and more within Canadian television, the
25     spaces for those of us who are largely marginalized in


 1     this country keep on shrinking with it.
 2  14315                When you talk to people of colour and
 3     aboriginal people, women, especially feminist women,
 4     people with disabilities, and so on who are experts and
 5     political savantes, the thinking is the same.  When are
 6     we seen as the experts?  In all the Canadian talk
 7     shows, the political commentaries, who is used as an
 8     expert?  It's largely a white male who is mainly
 9     English speaking.  And that is not the extent of the
10     multicultural nature of this country or even represents
11     from a gender perspective the kind of skills
12     development and ability of the rest of us to
13     conceptualize what is happening politically,
14     economically, and socially in this country.
15  14316                So we want to see a multicultural
16     version of expertise and political savantes and
17     legitimate opinions because we clearly feel that what
18     is transmitted on our TV screen informs public opinion. 
19     It informs how people vote.  It informs what we accept
20     as equality in this country.  It informs that we accept
21     as good government.  And, therefore, it's very, very
22     important and it is very instructive, in particular to
23     young people.  And that is our major concern that what
24     we see does not reflect that width and depth of what is
25     Canadianness in terms of how we think politically,


 1     economically and socially.
 2  14317                I want to end by just making two
 3     references to two stations in particular.  We have
 4     CFMT, which is called multicultural television, which I
 5     guess most of us who belong to this multicultural
 6     community assume means those of us who are not English
 7     or French speaking Europeans.
 8  14318                But when you look at multicultural
 9     television, one would think that the only thing that
10     Canada as a multicultural society is interested in is
11     junk food programming.  We are given "Jerry Springer,"
12     for example, to swallow as multicultural television
13     programming.
14  14319                Within our multicultural community,
15     there are people who are very, very skilled and aware
16     of geo-politics.  We don't see that kind of programming
17     in multicultural television as if to say this wide
18     group of people have no concept of politics , social
19     development, or economic development.
20  14320                I think that the fact that there
21     isn't right now an aboriginal Canadian television
22     station is also very, very indicative of the alienation
23     of a whole group of people who have a particular way of
24     living, particular way of development that is being
25     shoved more and more to the margins. I know there's an


 1     aboriginal group that is putting forward a proposal for
 2     license and NAC fully supports that.  We fully support
 3     community television. We fully support the increase in
 4     Canadian content, and we also fully support the CBC in
 5     terms of it being a public broadcaster, but it has to
 6     to actually live that nature of being a true public
 7     broadcaster.
 8  14321                Thank you very much.
 9  14322                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Madam
10     Grant-Cummings.  Does that complete your presentation?
11  14323                MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Yes, it does.
12  14324                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
13     McKendry, please.
14  14325                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Good Morning. 
15     Ms. Grant-Cummings, I got the impression from your
16     opening comments that you were required to appear with
17     the Canadian Labour Congress for financial reasons. 
18     Did I get that right?
19  14326                MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS:  In terms of
20     scheduling, we had to appear today.  This was impacted,
21     yes, by our financial status in terms of how we were
22     able to appear.  I think we were asked to appear later
23     on this week but that would have created more financial
24     issues for us.
25  14327                I think on that point what we want to


 1     say is that the CRTC and other commissions like this
 2     needs to understand that given the lack of resources,
 3     and in particular financial resources that many
 4     community groups have, and the community groups across
 5     this country operate and who have a great stake in what
 6     you are doing, they don't have the luxury to pick up
 7     and leave on their resource offices to come and make
 8     their presentations.  And one can get the impression
 9     that these communities do not care when, in fact, they
10     greatly care because they are impacted on how they are
11     portrayed in TV on a daily basis.
12  14328                The CRTC probably needs to look at
13     some of the systems that other commissions use to
14     facilitate that kind of participation by offering
15     subsidies, for example.
16  14329                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before you proceed,
17     Commissioner McKendry, Ms. Grant-Cummings, you can have
18     all the time you want to answer our questions and we
19     will take all the time you would have taken to ask
20     them, whether you appear today or another day.  The
21     Commission does try to accommodate, and I thought your
22     appearance this morning was an accommodation.
23  14330                Go ahead, Commissioner McKendry.
24  14331                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Yes, I just
25     want to emphasize that point. Take as much time as you


 1     need, and I was also under the impression that we had
 2     attempted to accommodate you by having the joint
 3     appearance.  But, as Commissioner Wylie has pointed
 4     out, please feel free to take as much time as you need
 5     and we certainly aren't going to restrict our
 6     questioning because of your joint appearance.  We don't
 7     pool your times together and divide by two.
 8  14332                One of the things that intrigued me,
 9     Ms. Grant-Cummings, about your comments was that when
10     many people in this proceeding appear before us, they
11     focus on the cultural aspect of television broadcasting
12     and its importance to the country.  Now I take it that
13     you see television as a significant force for political
14     and social development, and I think you're one of the
15     few parties that's appeared before us until now that's
16     taken that perspective.  Can you just elaborate on that
17     point and relate it to the cultural focus that many
18     others have taken?
19  14333                MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS:  I think one of
20     the things, when we talk about culture, we don't talk
21     about, for example, the culture of equality that exists
22     in this country.  The role that labour plays, that the
23     women's movement plays, that ethno-specific groups
24     play, et cetera.  If you're going to have six talk
25     shows per week, debate major political issues that come


 1     out of Queen's Park in Ontario or the House of
 2     Parliament in Ottawa, in terms of who has the privilege
 3     to debate those issues or who television stations see
 4     as the credible experts, that shapes who Canadians see
 5     as credible and that is not largely people in labour. 
 6     It's not largely feminist organizations.  It's not
 7     largely people of colour or aboriginal people.  And
 8     this kind of perpetration of a very narrow definition
 9     of who is the expert, who can analyze, who is aware of
10     geo-politics, I think has a major, major impact on our
11     communities.  It also, I know certainly within the
12     women's movement, has actually been translated into
13     what we call clearly an anti-feminist stance within our
14     media.
15  14334                When we talk about issues like girl
16     power and women power, that is superficial stuff.  It
17     doesn't get at the fact that in terms of women's
18     progression, for example, in Canada, there are many,
19     many gains that are eroded because we are not given
20     that space on TV to even enunciate that kind of
21     politics.
22  14335                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  In the
23     proceeding that we currently have underway, what would
24     you like to see us do in our decision-making with
25     respect to the issues that you have raised?  What could


 1     we do to move the agenda forward, from your
 2     perspective?
 3  14336                MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS:  One of the
 4     recommendations that we make in our brief is that you
 5     do a real updating of your report that I think you came
 6     out with in December, 1990 to specifically look at the
 7     political and social impact that Canadian television
 8     has on different communities.  And I think there are
 9     many groups out there with very, very clear mechanisms
10     or recommendations of how they can see that change.
11  14337                The CRTC's mandate involves stations
12     actually promoting multiculturalism in programming and
13     that doesn't mean having now and then food colouring on
14     your station.  It means in terms of who influences the
15     decision-making within the organization and who has the
16     right or who influences those decisions that involves
17     who is it that is the face of the station in things
18     like political discussions, economic analysis, and
19     impact on different groups of people.  It has to be a
20     mix of us.  You have to have different voices.  The
21     voice of multinationals can't govern every space on TV. 
22     And that is what it seems like right now.  And I think
23     for many, many people who are alienated from our
24     political and economic system, that sense of
25     hopelessness or helplessness that many Canadians are


 1     feeling and why we have such low voter turnout, is
 2     impacted by them seeing only these individuals.
 3  14338                So stations choose.  It's not by
 4     default.  Stations choose who is there and who makes
 5     these decisions.
 6  14339                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would just like
 7     to add to that.  In our brief, we talk about that
 8     person from the other planet believing that Canada
 9     would be a nation of stockbrokers because of the
10     massive increase of business shows.  And this season,
11     or last season, it grew by leaps and bounds.
12  14340                Being a bit of a junky for the news
13     channels, I spend most of my time screaming at the TV
14     because the other side is not heard.
15  14341                There used to be a workers program on
16     Newsworld.  What was it called?  We paid for it.  We
17     raised the money among out affiliates and then had a
18     production company put it together and then sell it to
19     Newsworld.  And that was the only show that was on and
20     that was on for about one season.  "Working TV" or
21     whatever we called it.  The commercials or the
22     advertisements were bought by the steelworkers, the
23     autoworkers and it was the only way that we could get
24     any kind of coverage for the ordinary working Canadian.
25  14342                So I would add to what Joan says that


 1     we have also seen the shift to the right, the political
 2     right.  And, again, if that's all you see, that's all
 3     you know, that globalization is good, that free trade
 4     is good.
 5  14343                Now I'm not saying it's total. 
 6     There's some balance, on occasion, and I often am one
 7     of the people providing the balance, but it's very,
 8     very rare.
 9  14344                On the women's, it's interesting that
10     when the issue is pay equity, I guess they work really
11     hard to get women on TV.
12  14345                So that brings up something else. 
13     That if it's purely seen as women's issues, they would
14     look for women to do it.  If it's a general business
15     program or a program about globalization, generally
16     speaking, or the Asian crisis, we rarely see women
17     doing it.  Or would we see men doing pay equity. Which
18     again sets up a dynamic that that's the one group that
19     appears.  It sort of boxes groups into certain issues.
20                                                        1130
21  14346                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  I was
22     interested in that and that point you made.  You made
23     it in your written brief at page 9.  One of the
24     questions that came to my mind when I read that part of
25     your brief was to what extent is it appropriate for the


 1     Commission or for the government I suppose in general
 2     to become involved in prescribing the content of news. 
 3     How much should be devoted to this and how much should
 4     be devoted to that.  Is that what you are looking to us
 5     for?
 6  14347                MS RICHE:  Well, it is not news.  It
 7     is the analysis where you see this kind of stuff.  It
 8     is not the news program.  If in fact -- I mean I could
 9     complain about a lot of that too and where the emphasis
10     is put.  It is the analysis of the events.
11  14348                There has never been, as long as I
12     have been around this city, about 15 years, on budget
13     day with the exception of one federal budget, where
14     anybody on the panel was anybody but economists.  I
15     won't go so far as to say it was only men.  There may
16     have been one or two women, but it has only been either
17     academic economists or economists attached to a
18     particular business or business organization.  Only
19     once do I remember that being any different.
20  14349                So, it is not the news; it's the
21     analysis.  I do understand your question and the
22     delicacy and the fine line, but I think in terms of the
23     Commission there is certainly a way to talk about the
24     balance of the analysis, that all parts of the country,
25     all segments, all sectors, all colours should be


 1     represented in the analysis.
 2  14350                I think Joan's point and I am afraid
 3     this is -- I mean this is the kind of work that we are
 4     trying to do in the CLC -- first of all, acknowledge
 5     that we do live in a terribly racist country.  We like
 6     to pretend we don't.
 7  14351                One of the ways of combatting that is
 8     that all sectors would be speaking to the analysis of
 9     the main stories, that you have the views and the
10     opinions of all sides and sectors.  This is not to say
11     that those not represented now would be on my side.  I
12     would like to think they were, but they might not be. 
13     They might be presenting the same position, but we do
14     need a balance.
15  14352                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So it isn't
16     necessarily less business news, but more balance that
17     you are seeking in the way these issues are presented
18     to the public?
19  14353                MS RICHE:  To say it's business news,
20     it's not business news that we are seeing.  It is
21     business analysis.  I mean if there is a strike, a big
22     strike, labour will be the lead story, there is no
23     doubt about it.  And if there is a big business merger
24     that will be the lead story, no doubt about it.  But
25     it's the analysis shows that we have seen since we  got


 1     these specialty channels, particularly Newsworld. 
 2     Newsworld I suspect, and I haven't done the study, has
 3     increased its coverage of business analysis I would say
 4     almost by 50 per cent in the last year or so.
 5  14354                I mean I watched the new programming
 6     that came out.  It used to be a few minutes every hour,
 7     from five o'clock until seven in the morning.  Now it
 8     is like the business program.  The business person on
 9     Newsworld in the morning show is now almost the
10     co-anchor.  It was someone who used to come in.  There
11     is a change.
12  14355                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Mr. O'Brien,
13     did you want to answer?
14  14356                MR. O'BRIEN:  Yes.  One last thing
15     and that is the Commission does make decisions about
16     what communities are represented on broadcast time,
17     cablecast time.  You may be seeing applications from
18     producers who would like to have solely a business
19     channel or more business on air.
20  14357                Clearly, I mean if you look at
21     Newsworld, if you look at CTV, one where the stock
22     prices are up every 10 minutes, it would be great if
23     the Commission would actually do a study on that.  It
24     is clear that that community is extremely well served
25     now and that any future application for expanding


 1     businesses I think based on the amount of time business
 2     news is on air I think should be rejected by the
 3     Commission.
 4  14358                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Let me come
 5     back to -- sorry, Ms Grant-Cummings, did you want to
 6     add something?
 7  14359                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Yes.  What I
 8     wanted to say is that I think the Commission needs to
 9     look at this from the perspective of how civil society
10     is represented in our media and how our media
11     facilitates participation of civil society because
12     right now I think the media speaks to a particular
13     group of Canadians.  It doesn't speak to most of us.
14  14360                I think the sideline enough of NGOs,
15     of non-governmental organizations even having space to
16     participate in that more integrated analysis that
17     Canadian television needs to have I think is a decision
18     that has been made by many networks and it is not one
19     by default.  It is an indicator of the values of many
20     private broadcasters and included in even the CBC in
21     terms of how programming is decided and who
22     participates in the analysis.
23  14361                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  One of the
24     trends we have seen emerging in broadcasting in recent
25     years is the emergence of specialty television


 1     channels.  There is a specialty channel that focuses on
 2     women's issues and there are other specialty channels
 3     that focus on particular segments of society as well. 
 4     Is there a risk or a danger for the Commission and
 5     others in that if one focuses on the specialty channel
 6     that the conventional over-the-air broadcasters, in
 7     terms of representing the diversity of the country and
 8     so on, that we tend to think we are taking care of the
 9     problem by having a specialty channel and we don't
10     really need to worry about the conventional
11     broadcasters?
12  14362                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  You absolutely
13     have to worry about the conventional.  I think it has
14     to be a simultaneous process.  For example, the Women's
15     Television Network isn't seen by many women as women's
16     TV, like men may see the fishing channel as men's TV or
17     TSN as men's TV.  WTN isn't accepted by many women as
18     women's television.
19  14363                It is marketed to women, but it uses
20     the same business values to guide it in a lot of its
21     programming.  I think it has to be integrated.  I think
22     we want to see private broadcasters.  We want to see
23     Global, CTV integrate the analysis of most of us in
24     this country, not just a few of us and I think we will
25     always need specialty channels because there are going


 1     to be some issues that have to be dealt with on their
 2     own, but it should not preclude them from dealing with
 3     the integrated analysis.
 4  14364                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So we and
 5     others shouldn't sit back and say, "Well, we have taken
 6     care of the problem.  We have specialty channels."
 7  14365                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  No way.
 8  14366                MS RICHE:  It is interesting to note
 9     that in giving the licence to WTN I would imagine much
10     of the argument was that there wasn't enough women's
11     television, so the Commission obviously has accepted
12     the arguments of Joan already this morning back when
13     WTN was licensed, even if it doesn't cover what it is
14     supposed to.
15  14367                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Mr. O'Brien
16     and Ms Riche, let me ask you a couple of questions
17     about your written submission.  My first question is on
18     page 7 of your written submission.  Let me read a
19     couple of sentences and I will ask you about that.  It
20     is the second paragraph, quote:
21                            "To those who scream that there
22                            are no audiences for shows about
23                            Canadians we answer that there
24                            are plenty of engaging and
25                            compelling Canadian stories and


 1                            that Canadians will tune in when
 2                            these stories are told well.  We
 3                            assert that those who claim
 4                            otherwise are simply lazy and
 5                            uncreative."
 6  14368                When I read that I think there would
 7     be a counter argument that could be put to you and I
 8     would like to get your reaction, that in fact perhaps
 9     it is regulation that makes people lazy and uncreative
10     because it creates an umbrella for them and some people
11     have argued that to us.  I take it that's not your view
12     and I am wondering if you can suggest to us how we
13     would overcome the lazy and uncreative problem in a
14     regulated environment?
15                                                        1140
16  14369                MS RICHE:  One was in changing the
17     prime time -- the recommendation that we made
18     previously -- that if you took out the news that there
19     would be some time there to do it.
20  14370                We're not here to unregulate or
21     deregulate the industry, as I'm sure you know, which
22     was clearly a part of your question.  In fact, because
23     I think we have gone so far in terms of, you know, the
24     number of channels and the number of US TV available to
25     us, that the regulation becomes even more important to


 1     bring us back to some sort of balance of Canadian
 2     content, and that will require some assistance, some
 3     financial assistance.
 4  14371                The thing that we go on to say, here,
 5     is how exciting it has been, the few people in Canada
 6     who have been able to manage to pull the funding
 7     together to be able to produce in Canada, by Canadians,
 8     for Canadians, and about Canada, and how successful
 9     it's been.
10  14372                What we think we've not gone near to
11     tap is the resources that are available.  There are
12     many groups who could do "This Hour Has 22 Minutes." 
13     These guys lucked out.  Once they were able to get
14     there, then the rest of the Canadians saw them.  I
15     mean, I'm from Newfoundland, so I know there's at least
16     150 more shows like "This Hour Has 22 Minutes" any
17     given day.  So there's incredible stuff available, but
18     if you can't get in -- you know, when we think about
19     it -- no choices.  But the frustration is that, had we
20     been able to get in before, we may not be in this
21     situation now.
22  14373                And I know there are those who will
23     criticise, you know, Canada Council grants and even
24     entertainers who, the first thing they want to say is
25     gripe that they never got a grant, but in fact, you


 1     know, "This Hour Has 22 Minutes," those folks got a lot
 2     of grants, back when they were "Codco."  They were able
 3     to develop by Canada Council.
 4  14374                The Great Eastern -- I don't know if
 5     you've ever heard that show on CBC Radio that comes out
 6     of Newfoundland.  My nephew is on that.  That's why I
 7     mention that, you see. We may even down the road talk
 8     about lowering the regulation, but I don't think we can
 9     until we get to a certain level, particularly now, with
10     all the channels.  The choice is there for Canadians. 
11     But if we, you know, maybe, given the opportunity, and
12     that can only happen, I suspect, with regulation.  Tom.
13  14375                MR. O'BRIEN:  Brian Mulroney once
14     characterised Canada being next to the United States as
15     sleeping with an elephant.  Well, that elephant
16     produces a lot of shows, and it promotes the heck out
17     of those shows.  And so it's more profitable for
18     private broadcasters to simply licence those shows,
19     because there's a spillover promotion effect in Canada. 
20     Any night, we can all go home to the television, turn
21     on cable, and we can see "ER" being promoted --
22     tremendously being promoted.  That costs money, and
23     Canadian -- private broadcasters don't have to do that
24     to the extent that they would if it was an American
25     show that they could licence, because the Americans are


 1     already doing it, spilling across our border.
 2  14376                So, it's more expensive to promote
 3     Canadian shows, and you know, this is all about
 4     profitability.  Private stations, private broadcasters
 5     buy and licence American programs and broadcast them
 6     because they're more profitable.  They don't have to
 7     promote them.
 8  14377                So if we were to go to an unregulated
 9     situation, we'd see, I suspect, less and less Canadian
10     content.  I mean, we can see that now.  As point of our
11     submission, we have charts that show, in a given recent
12     period, how little Canadian content programming in
13     prime time the private broadcasters actually did, once
14     you eliminate news broadcasts.  So the last thing we
15     would want would be to move away from the regulated
16     market that has given us Canadian content.
17  14378                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you,
18     Ms. Riche and Mr. O'Brien.  I wanted to ask you about
19     your comments on local programming, and your references
20     to local programming.  Now, I expect Ms. Grant-Cummings
21     may have thought about local programming as well, in
22     terms of the issues that she's interested in, so I
23     invite her to comment as well.
24  14379                And I was wondering if you could
25     expand for me on  the solutions that you suggest, with


 1     respect of solving the problem of declining local
 2     programming that you've referred to on page eight. 
 3     What do you think the solutions are to that problem?
 4  14380                MR. O'BRIEN:  Well, I mean, I realise
 5     that some licences were granted, I believe, 20 years
 6     ago that didn't require, for instance, in Ontario, a
 7     certain station to have local broadcasting facilities,
 8     which eliminated their ability to do local programming. 
 9     I guess my understanding is that that requirement was
10     not foisted onto them at the time of their licensing. 
11     So that made the playing field, I understand, a little
12     bit uneven.
13  14381                So we simply urge that local content
14     requirements be placed on the shoulders of all
15     broadcasters -- private broad- and cable-casters
16     equally -- and that if some station can show that
17     somehow this creates an unequal burden on them, then
18     maybe we should find the funding so that, in fact, they
19     can execute local programming requirements.
20  14382                What you can see locally, is we look
21     at Ottawa's local station, CJOH, carried 30 hours of
22     local programming.  CBC and CHRO boasted many local
23     shows as well, and this was back in the early 90s.  In
24     the upcoming season, only two non-new shows made for
25     local audiences by a local broadcaster will be aired. 


 1     So I would like to get that in the record.  You can see
 2     it's a problem.
 3  14383                So again, we'd like to see local
 4     programming be the requirement nation-wide, and that if
 5     that requirement is enforced equally around the
 6     country, we think ultimately it won't provide a
 7     competitive disadvantage to stations, finally.
 8  14384                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Let me just
 9     ask Ms. Grant-Cummings a more specific question.  You
10     represent a number or NAC represents a number of
11     organisations, women's organisations around the
12     country.  Have you had any feedback from them about
13     their ability to access stations in local communities
14     to discuss the issues you're interested in in the
15     context of those particular communities?
16  14385                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Overwhelmingly,
17     there's a lack of access, as far as women's groups are
18     concerned, unless there's some issue that stations
19     think, you know, hey, a cross-sector of people will
20     beam into, they're not allowed air time.  Or unless
21     they demonstrate in front of a station, or threaten
22     boycott, which is ridiculous, because there's no way we
23     should have to do that.  Their views are not
24     incorporated into local or national programming.  You
25     have to fight to get that space, and that is the


 1     overwhelming feedback that we're getting from women,
 2     whether they're in the Yukon, whether they're in
 3     Beechville, Nova Scotia, or in Toronto, Ontario. 
 4     That's the feedback.
 5  14386                MR. O'BRIEN:  Can I say one more
 6     thing about this?  One of our concerns is that when
 7     stations are required to produce local programming, it
 8     gives an opportunity for local cultural talent to
 9     exercise their skills.  It's the entry point for people
10     who will someday become national broadcasters,
11     nationally-seen actors, people with national-level
12     technical skills.  Local programming is the entry point
13     for them to learn those skills and to practise those
14     skills before they're ready for, you know, national
15     showcasing.  So, you know, we worry that without local
16     content requirements, that this entry point will be
17     gone.
18  14387                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Ms.
19     Grant-Cummings, to what extent has your organisation
20     directly approached broadcasters to try and have a
21     dialogue with broadcasters about the issues you're
22     concerned, and if you have, how responsive have the
23     broadcasters been in terms of dealing with those issues
24     from the perspective of having a dialogue with them?
25  14388                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Well, I think one


 1     of the telling comments from broadcasters that we have
 2     interacted with is if there's too much of a presence on
 3     TV, people are going to think we support NAC.  If we
 4     have a feminist broadcaster, or a person of colour
 5     cover a particular issue that is of importance to
 6     people of colour, people are going to see this as
 7     biased reporting, and our question is always, well, is
 8     it only white males in broadcasting who can present
 9     unbiased professional reporting?  You know, but that
10     has been the type of feedback that we get whenever we
11     have tried to interact with broadcasters on this issue
12     in terms of, you know, having our views heard.  Whether
13     it's the budget, as Nancy said, whether it's pay
14     equity, whether it's trade agreements that women are
15     very, very concerned about, the discussion of the
16     MAI -- all of these key issues, you know, that's just
17     feminist trash.  It's outdated.  We don't want to hear
18     it.
19  14389                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Let me ask
20     Ms. Riche and Mr. O'Brien a question.  You referred
21     earlier to funding, in terms of solving the local
22     production problem and so on, and there's a reference
23     on page ten, where you state, and I quote again:  "This
24     means providing more government funding for Canadian
25     productions."


 1  14390                Are your members willing to provide
 2     this funding?  Because in the end, it's people who work
 3     that ultimately provide the funding, either through
 4     their tax bill or through subscription payments to
 5     television and so on.  So I take it, here, you're
 6     acknowledging there's a price, and I assume your
 7     members are willing to pay the price.
 8                                                        1150
 9  14391                MS RICHE:  Well, it is not as simple
10     as that.  Government makes choices over how they spend
11     the money they already have.  So we are not saying here
12     you must raise income tax in order to fund local
13     programming, we are saying that the government makes
14     choices.  It made choices when it demanded the cuts to
15     CBC.  It made those choices.  It did not say to the
16     workers of Canada, "We will give you back a penny per
17     hour" or something "and we will cut the CBC."
18  14392                I think you know quite well it
19     doesn't work as straightforward as that, as you would
20     ask.
21  14393                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  So you are
22     suggesting that there would be cutbacks somewhere else
23     to fund these types of initiatives?  Is that what I
24     should take from that?
25  14394                MS RICHE:  No, it depends on when the


 1     government sits down to carve out their money.  I don't
 2     know.  That's how the Liberals/Conservatives work; they
 3     cut back on social programs to allow to do other
 4     things.  There may have been another choice.  There may
 5     have been a choice, heaven forbid, to allow the debt to
 6     go up, to allow the deficit to stay, to concentrate on
 7     growth in the economy as opposed to that.  It is not
 8     that cut and dry.
 9  14395                If in fact Canadians want to see more
10     Canadian content, if they want more of this in local
11     programming, if they would like to see more CBC --
12     because I think everybody sitting around the room my
13     age remembers all the local content we used to have on
14     particularly our CBC and our private stations.  Where I
15     grew up the six o'clock news was generally an hour, an
16     hour and a half, with local interviews.  I remember
17     clearly these were important events in our lives; in
18     St. John's, Don Jamieson, in fact, the former Cabinet
19     minister, started out that way.  So the choices can be
20     made.
21  14396                If we want to put it down to cut and
22     dry, you pay more here or you get cut back there, then
23     we have a problem.  We have a serious problem, which of
24     course has been the conservative argument in this
25     country for the past decade.  Or we can say, Canadians


 1     want this, they are paying income tax, and let's decide
 2     the choices that we make.
 3  14397                I can't answer your question because,
 4     first of all -- I will try to be calm -- it is a bit of
 5     a set-up and it tells me more about your politics than
 6     mine.
 7  14398                MR. O'BRIEN:  Commissioner, as Nancy
 8     just said, we don't have a specific proposal, but the
 9     Commission orders in other areas of its work.  You
10     order, for instance, using telephone revenues generally
11     to subsidize rural telephone usage because of the
12     tremendous capital costs involved in bringing telephone
13     service trough rural areas, and we support that; I
14     think all of Canada supports that.
15  14399                So the Commission, it is not just
16     government funds as a general term.  The Commission can
17     order if it deems that local content, more Canadian
18     content is a goal worth supporting.  The Commission can
19     find revenues, we believe, in other areas -- and not
20     just the Commission.
21  14400                When John Dillinger was asked why he
22     robbed banks, he said, "That's where the money is" --
23     and, speaking about banks, you would never find us
24     having a problem if the Commission recommended to the
25     Government of Canada that -- banks have had four years


 1     of consecutive record profit levels.  If you
 2     recommended taxing the banks in order to support higher
 3     Canadian content or more local programming, at the
 4     Canadian Labour Congress we certainly wouldn't have a
 5     problem with that.
 6  14401                MS RICHE:  And you would support
 7     that.
 8  14402                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Absolutely.
 9  14403                I think there is one point that I
10     also wanted to make but forgot.  In terms of the
11     complaints process that is in place so that individuals
12     can make complaints around program content or lack
13     thereof, I think we have to come up with a better
14     strategy than what is there right now.  I don't know
15     how the Commission can do this in terms of, of course,
16     resource -- access to resources is going to be a major,
17     major issue, but one of the reasons why we are aware of
18     the fact that this is a major issue for women across
19     the country is because weekly we get calls.  As soon as
20     women see something on TV that really offends them in a
21     very, very clear way -- the whole issue of telling
22     them, "Write a letter to the station and cc to the
23     CRTC", that process is very limiting.
24  14404                When we as an organization speak to
25     stations, it becomes -- "You are just one voice who has


 1     said this."  The recognition that this organization
 2     represents many women isn't something that is validated
 3     at all by these broadcasters; yet, still, we may be the
 4     route to this being changed.
 5  14405                So I think broadcasters use that
 6     very, very flippantly to brush off complaints, and
 7     that's where the whole issue of picketing a station;
 8     then women have to picket a station for the station
 9     manager to acknowledge that there was a complaint in
10     the first place.
11  14406                So I think one of the things that the
12     CRTC has to put its hands around is how do we
13     facilitate a better complaint system?  I think the
14     length and depth of a lot of the complaints that are
15     coming in can actually inform how licensing is done or
16     renewed in the future.
17  14407                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you.
18  14408                Let me end my questions by asking
19     Ms Grant-Cummings about children's programming.  Is
20     there any brighter picture there from your perspective
21     in terms of the issues you are interested in with
22     respect to children's programming than there is with
23     the other types of programming?
24  14409                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  I think actually
25     one of our successes is YTV.  I mean, there is always


 1     room for improvement, but I think, just in terms of my
 2     own nine-year-old and in terms of the feedback from
 3     women and what it is that they preferably will have
 4     their children see, how YTV is set up in terms of the
 5     diversity of actors that are represented there, in
 6     terms of the content of the programming, that is one of
 7     the stations that I think women have talked about in a
 8     positive light.
 9  14410                I think it is good to see in terms of
10     who is viewing -- the viewership has increased at YTV,
11     and I think it is because it has crossed many sectors
12     in how it depicts Canadian children.
13  14411                COMMISSIONER McKENDRY:  Thank you
14     very much for answering my questions.
15  14412                Those are my questions, Madam Chair.
16  14413                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
17     Cardozo.
18  14414                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
19     Madam Chair.
20  14415                First, an interesting comment on YTV,
21     Ms Grant-Cummings.  We had Shaw here last week and we
22     asked them how they go about reflecting diversity, and
23     the program director, Peter Moss I believe is his name,
24     said that in fact when they do select their casts for
25     the various programs they do keep an eye on the racial


 1     composition of the actors that they have.  That's one
 2     of the ways they make sure that they have diversity. 
 3     So it is an issue that they think about.  I think it is
 4     an example that, when a producer/broadcaster puts their
 5     mind to anything, they can do it.
 6  14416                A few questions.
 7  14417                In terms of labour news, Ms Riche,
 8     you mentioned the program there was on Newsworld, and I
 9     believe somebody else mentioned it; it was possibly the
10     Council of Canadians a week or two ago.  I wonder if,
11     at a later point, you can give us some more information
12     on the specific name of the program, how long it
13     lasted, and the kinds of advertising that you did put
14     in or the unions put in if that's easily available,
15     because we would be interested to have that, and also
16     why it ended if you have any letters or any background
17     about why Newsworld ended it.
18  14418                Certainly, the suggestion of
19     increased business news on Newsworld has been raised as
20     not being balanced by other news, and they have -- I
21     guess they call it "NBN", "Newsworld Business News",
22     which is a major section in the evenings.
23  14419                In terms of having a variety of
24     viewpoints on television, what are your feelings about
25     programs like "Face Off" and now "Counterspin"?  Do you


 1     see that as a more positive portrayal of the issues in
 2     terms of analysis of news and current affairs?
 3  14420                MS RICHE:  I have only seen
 4     "Counterspin" a couple of times.  I liked it.  I was
 5     not a fan of "Face Off" generally speaking; I will
 6     probably end up not being a fan of "Counterspin".
 7  14421                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Why is that?
 8  14422                MS RICHE:  Because I think that's
 9     what they call "fighting fish"; journalists call that
10     fighting fish, the people are screaming at each other. 
11     It is not my favourite kind of show.  I would say "no"
12     more often than I say "yes" to do those.  I think what
13     I am talking about is something along the lines of
14     Allison Smith's sort of stuff where there is a rational
15     discussion and analysis of the issue.
16  14423                I realize certainly trade unions are
17     seen as kind of passionate screamers and rhetorical
18     stuff, and that's why -- why wouldn't they ask someone
19     like me to do that kind of stuff, but I am not sure --
20  14424                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  They make good
21     television --
22  14425                MS RICHE:  But I am not sure it is
23     helpful at the end of the day.  It is not for me, not
24     for me personally.  I found "Face Off" -- a lot of the
25     times I just turned it off.  I would switch on to see


 1     what was on and -- "I don't need it."  I did it once --
 2     no, it is just, I mean, three people speaking at once
 3     is not good to anything.  So I would like to see a more
 4     in-depth analysis.
 5  14426                We have never seen an analysis of a
 6     strike on TV unless it goes on for about a year and a
 7     half, and the impact on the community, but in terms of
 8     when the strike happens, we do here both sides, sort
 9     of, sometimes the union is not even named in the story,
10     who represents, and the company name is and the
11     employees of the company but not the union.
12                                                        1200
13  14427                But an analysis of that strike would
14     be really interesting TV because no strike is the same. 
15     That kind of thing.
16  14428                But the other thing is we get very
17     little of our side on the emerging work force.  I mean
18     it is not discussed on TV in terms of what is happening
19     for people.  If you're following the coverage of the
20     current UI debate, now it's become a different debate
21     and story after story is not mentioning what has
22     happened to workers, you know, why we are here, where
23     we are.  Now we're having a debate on what to do with
24     the surplus.
25  14429                Now, of course, I'm speaking from a


 1     really selfish perspective, right?  I want my side all
 2     the time.  But I would like to see it occasionally. 
 3     You know, there are some things that can happen that
 4     it's not a "Counterspin"/ "Faceoff" kind of set-up.
 5  14430                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How about a
 6     different kind of --
 7  14431                MR. O'BRIEN:  Could I also respond? 
 8     I mean if you ever had any question about democracy in
 9     the labour movement, you're seeing it right here
10     because as a frequent guest on "Counterspin," I want to
11     tell you how fabulous I think the show is.
12  14432                MS. RICHE:  It was on once.
13  14433                MR. O'BRIEN:  Twice.  Twice.
14  14434                MS. RICHE:  Twice?
15  14435                MR. O'BRIEN:  Twice.  Nancy, you
16     should tune in more often.
17  14436                MS. RICHE:  I just gave my reason why
18     I don't.
19  14437                MR. O'BRIEN:  At any rate.  But I do
20     agree that having shows like "Faceoff" and
21     "Counterspin" is not the ultimate solution or is not an
22     alternative to covering the issues of working people in
23     Canada.
24  14438                I have Newsworld on in my office and
25     CTV1 in my office.  It's always on low all the time and


 1     I can't tell you how often, as an example of the kinds
 2     of values that are put out there, the hosts of the show
 3     or one of the other professionals on camera will
 4     mention when they have air time to fill up how they're
 5     going to the cottage this weekend, comments like that. 
 6     I'm thinking how many of our 2.3 million members have
 7     cottages to go to?  Who are they speaking to in these
 8     stations?  And I just throw that out as an example of
 9     the kinds of values that I think that are put out on
10     news shows on a regular basis.
11  14439                So, in short, I think "Counterspin"
12     and "Faceoff" are good but we would prefer to see the
13     issues of working people covered regularly on national
14     and local newscasts.
15  14440                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, Ms
16     Riche, one of the things that we've been talking about
17     is the lack of a star system in which English-speaking
18     Canada in terms of why people don't recognize and see
19     enough TV.  Obviously, Mr. O'Brien is recognizing that
20     more than you have in terms of becoming a star.  So
21     you've got some competition.
22  14441                MS. RICHE:  That's why they haven't
23     asked me to go on "Counterspin."  You understand that's
24     the whole reason for my intervention.
25  14442                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  We will make


 1     sure Ave Lewis hears about this.
 2  14443                Let me ask you, Ms. Grant-Cummings, a
 3     couple of questions about some other recommendations
 4     that we have made to us in reference to some of the
 5     issues you've raised.
 6  14444                ACTRA, who is on next, actually, let
 7     me just read this recommendation:
 8                            "In addition, ACTRA believes it
 9                            is time for the Commission to
10                            update its study on gender
11                            portrayal.  The last report
12                            issued in 1990 was based on data
13                            collected in 1984 and 1988. 
14                            Many changes have taken place
15                            since that time and it would be
16                            valuable to have a report card."
17                            (As read)
18  14445                Do you have any thoughts on that?
19  14446                MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Yes, we have
20     actually the same recommendation.  We didn't call it a
21     report card but the same thing.
22  14447                So, in the written brief that I will
23     be giving you at the end of this, it does have the same
24     thing and we have gone through that 1984 to 1988 stats
25     and I think that's why for us this is such an important


 1     issue because I think there is a misconception out
 2     there that things have actually moved forward.  When
 3     you speak to people in broadcasting who have come from
 4     different walks of life, different backgrounds, you get
 5     a greater sense that actually things may have been
 6     stripped away or moved backward.
 7  14448                So I think it's important to do that
 8     research to get what is real and what is really a
 9     misconception.
10  14449                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The other
11     recommendation that has been made by friends of the
12     Canadian Broadcasting and I think some others who will
13     be appearing this week is that we establish a task
14     force on racial stereotyping and look at some of the
15     issues around there.
16  14450                I'm trying to think on these two
17     issues about giving the issues you've raised what are
18     the kinds of measures we can take.  Are we ready to do
19     something about it?  Do we need a little more study?
20  14451                MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Yes, I think
21     that would be absolutely essential, and I think if
22     Canadian broadcasters would sort of take their fear
23     away, they would see where this is actually value added
24     type of thing.  If we are talking about reaching 30
25     million people across this country from coast to coast


 1     to coast, and we know in terms of the make-up of this
 2     country it is a heterogeneous one, my feeling is that
 3     one of the reasons why some Canadians just beam into
 4     American junk food programming is because they don't
 5     see themselves anywhere in Canadian broadcasting so
 6     they do what they think is the next best thing, which
 7     actually may be worse for us in the end.  So we beam
 8     into BET, if we're black, and we watch shows that are
 9     more likely to have black actors on, which don't really
10     help in terms of the stereotype issue.
11  14452                But if Canadian broadcasters really
12     wanted to capture who we are, they would take that bold
13     move and participate in a task force like this so we
14     can see the kind of programming that truly reflects who
15     we are.
16  14453                This whole issue of just accepting
17     American culture because they are more powerful
18     financially or whatever reason, I agree it has to do
19     with a lack of capacity in terms of putting resources
20     in and the laziness is there, if you're talking about
21     lazy.  I think this task force will be very, very
22     instructive.
23  14454                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  In terms of
24     some of the stations that do better in this issue,
25     would you pick out any examples?  One that comes to my


 1     mind is City TV, which seems to do more in terms of
 2     reflection of minorities in all their roles, including
 3     MuchMusic as well.  There's more of a diversity of
 4     genres.  Would you agree with that?
 5  14455                MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS:  I think to a
 6     degree City does, and what I see happening is that
 7     people who started at City, end up on CBC and on other
 8     stations later on when it seems they have become, I
 9     guess, well known to the Canadian public in terms of
10     their face or in terms of their experience.  So I don't
11     know what's happening there.
12  14456                But City does have a better
13     representation.  The issue, I think, for some
14     broadcasters who I've spoken to is how they are paid by
15     City and other stations that seem to want them involved
16     and whether they have a real impact on the
17     decision-making mechanisms in terms of programming.
18  14457                So I think there are different levels
19     that we have to look at, not only the fact that one
20     station may have more food colouring, as we call it,
21     but where there are actually people in the organization
22     and do they actually influence programming.
23  14458                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  When you
24     mention people move from City to CBC, I recall a
25     comment I read recently by Moses Znaimer after Ave


 1     Lewis had moved from City to Newsworld, he said CBC was
 2     the home for the aged -- Ave Lewis who is 26.  I said
 3     is there a home for the aged for City graduates or
 4     something to that effect.
 5  14459                You raise the issue of working
 6     conditions and that, and, Ms. Riche, I was a little
 7     surprised that you didn't address issues of working
 8     conditions, wages levels, job security.  Are any of
 9     those issues of concern to you in terms of the
10     broadcasting industry, the production industry?
11  14460                MS RICHE:  Of course.
12  14461                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Or have you
13     had a chance to look at this?
14  14462                MS. RICHE:  Of course, but the brief
15     was prepared in terms of, as I understood this hearing,
16     on Canadian content.
17  14463                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yeah, okay.
18  14464                MS. RICHE:  We did talk about funding
19     and the cutbacks in CBC.  So, of course, they are of
20     concern.  Obviously, I mean we are CLC.  We didn't
21     choose to put it in here.
22  14465                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.
23  14466                MR. O'BRIEN:  I will say our
24     component sister or sister and brother unions, ACTRA
25     and the Communications, Energy & Paperworkers will be


 1     up before this Commission shortly to speak to some of
 2     those specifics.
 3  14467                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, great. 
 4     Let me just mention a few other things.  Actually,
 5     first, it's a comment but also a question, if you've
 6     got any comments on it.
 7  14468                Ms. Grant-Cummings, about CFMT, you
 8     mentioned "The Jerry Springer Show."  "The Jerry
 9     Springer Show" is not part of the multicultural
10     content, as it were. They have what we refer to as a
11     60/40 deal where 60 per cent of their programming is in
12     languages other than English and 40 is in English
13     programming.
14  14469                Part of the reasoning for that was
15     that the multilingual broadcasting doesn't bring in
16     enough revenue partly because it's also narrow casted,
17     it's hard to raise a lot of advertising money.
18  14470                So they were allowed to carry 40 per
19     cent English programming and a lot of that is American. 
20     So it's under that context that "Jerry Springer" comes
21     in.  Let it not be said that I'm defending Jerry
22     Springer or any other show, nor am I attacking him at
23     this point but that's part of the deal. Now you might
24     say is that the cost of multicultural programming?
25  14471                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  I mean it's one


 1     thing, yes, you have that 60 per cent, but I think in
 2     terms of how that 40 per cent is used, whether CFMT
 3     needs to have access to resources so they can actually
 4     develop real Canadian content in that 40 per cent
 5     English is something that I think should be discussed. 
 6     I am sure that people in different communities will
 7     want to talk about that.  But I don't think that 40 per
 8     cent is used well when we spend that money on "Jerry
 9     Springer."  Because people were not dealing the
10     multiculturalism from that 40 per cent.  And to keep
11     your viewership, I think across your whole programming,
12     there has to be something that speaks to the intellect
13     of this multicultural mix.
14  14472                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But he's very
15     popular. He brings in a lot of money.
16  14473                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  It's junk food. 
17     The same way we eat chips.  Hey, the same way we watch
18     "Jerry Springer."
19  14474                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Lastly,
20     I just want to let you know about four other hearings
21     coming up in reference to some of the issues you've
22     mentioned and it's partly because it's the first time I
23     think either of your organizations have appeared in a
24     little while, certainly the first time while I've been
25     here over the past year.  So we want to encourage you


 1     to come back more.
 2  14475                First, in terms of aboriginal
 3     programming, you're aware that there's an application. 
 4     There is a deadline, I believe, later this month.  So
 5     if you have any views, that's the time to participate.
 6  14476                The reason I mention these is because
 7     we tend to work fairly discreetly from each process to
 8     process because each process, everything you write in
 9     or say is on the record of that process so that you and
10     everybody else can see it.  That's why we may not get
11     into some of the discussions about these other issues.
12  14477                We have a process on New Media which
13     covers, of course, the Internet issues.  The deadline
14     for the first phase was the first of this month but you
15     might talk to our office and find out if you can submit
16     stuff for the second phase, which is early next month.
17  14478                In terms of community programming,
18     you mentioned some concerns about there.  We are
19     looking at what's called a broadcast distribution
20     undertakings regulations and that looks at cable
21     companies and other forms of distribution.  Issues of
22     community programming would come up there.  So if
23     you've got any specifics, that will be at some point
24     next year.
25  14479                I think either later this year or


 1     early next year, we will be having a review of what's
 2     called the self regulatory process, such as the
 3     Canadian Broadcast Standards Council you can complain
 4     to.
 5  14480                So, again, if you've got comments,
 6     please keep that one in mind.
 7  14481                With that, Madam Chair, those are my
 8     questions and comments.
 9  14482                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
10     Pennefather?
11  14483                COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
12     Madam Chair.
13  14484                Ms Grant-Cummings, I was going to ask
14     you for your comment on a task force as well because
15     the Canadian Diversity Network also proposes a similar
16     task force as to the one that Commissioner Cardozo
17     recommended.
18  14485                It is interesting, too, that they
19     recommend more research be done on comparing English
20     and French Canada in terms of visible minorities
21     representation and portrayal.
22  14486                Noting that there appear to be more
23     visible minority journalists in Quebec, and French
24     programming seems to be more culturally and racially
25     representative of the population within Quebec, from


 1     your perspective, have you looked at the differences
 2     and find that an important point, differences in
 3     English and French Canada?  Many intervenors note, and
 4     so does our public, notice the distinctiveness of the
 5     French market.  I was wondering if in what we are
 6     discussing today you have anything to add to that?
 7  14487                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Actually,
 8     Quebec -- I think it's the only province in terms of
 9     our membership where women in NAC have actually stated
10     that they get a more balanced -- actually a more
11     political analysis from a diverse group of people.
12  14488                The other area that NAC Quebec raised
13     is in terms of how international reporting is done in
14     Quebec, which is much more balanced than is done in
15     English Canada.
16  14489                So I mean definitely something
17     different is happening in Quebec that I think the rest
18     of the provinces and territories need to look at.
19  14490                COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
20     One last question.  You mentioned early in your remarks
21     a UN report regarding violence against women on
22     television.  Could you just tell me what reports you're
23     referring to and if it's in the process of the
24     follow-up to the Beijing conference or is it another
25     process?


 1  14491                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  It will be part
 2     of what they call in the Beijing Plus Five Process
 3     that's going to be concluded in the year 2000.  But in
 4     the 1997 sitting of the UN Commission on the Status of
 5     Women, I think it was their 41st session, one of the
 6     things that the special rapporteur in Violence Against
 7     Women pointed out is the fact that Canada in the
 8     seventies and eighties is when women's organizations
 9     really organized and got the government to take
10     seriously this issue and eventually the Canadian public
11     became a leader in coming up with strategies to
12     eliminate violence against women.
13  14492                But what they have seen towards the
14     middle and towards the end of the nineties is Canada
15     actually regressing in terms of the kinds of things
16     that we are doing.
17  14493                For example, the federal government
18     and provincial and territorial governments used to have
19     months where they really blitzed the airwaves with
20     anti-violence information.  That is something that most
21     provincial governments don't do anymore, never mind the
22     municipalities.  And the federal government does not
23     have an anti-violence strategy per se.  And with, I
24     think, the defund into women's groups in order for us
25     to mobilize even around that issue, it has translated


 1     into violence continuing unabated as far as the
 2     rapporteur is concerned.
 3  14494                COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Are you
 4     talking about violence in society or violence in terms
 5     of television broadcast media material?
 6  14495                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  I think the
 7     submission that Canadian women made involved what we
 8     see on TV and I think one of the things we talked about
 9     was the seemingly acceptance of soft porn as normal
10     when it also constitutes violence against women,
11     according to UN definition and the definition of the
12     women's movement.
13  14496                COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
14     I would appreciate if you could give us the specific
15     reference to the specific report.
16  14497                Thank you, Madam Chair.
17  14498                THE CHAIRPERSON:  All of you have
18     mentioned business analysis and business news.  Do I
19     understand correctly you think there's too much
20     business news and not enough business analysis?
21  14499                And, secondarily, that business
22     analysis doesn't analyze from the point of view of
23     sufficient sectors of society, particularly, let's say,
24     women.  It could also be new Canadians. I'm not sure
25     which one it is that you find is a problem.


 1  14500                I would have thought that the latter
 2     would be for people such as your organization that the
 3     problem is that women are also interested or should be
 4     interested in business analysis and they should have
 5     access to analyses that is done from that perspective.
 6  14501                For example, there are business
 7     occurrences that have a larger impact on women or will
 8     have an indirect impact on women because of the groups
 9     they represent in the work force or in certain
10     professions or in the federal government.  Or which is
11     it?  That we're inundated with business news, not
12     sufficient business analysis?  Or that where we have
13     business analysis, it's not done from a perspective
14     other than that of the business white man, when, in
15     fact, we're all involved in business, directly or
16     indirectly.
17  14502                MS. GRANT-CUMMINGS:  I guess I will
18     start and Nancy and Tom will also.
19  14503                I think one of the things for us is
20     the fact that the globalization of the economy, which
21     is a capitalist  economic system that has certain
22     characteristics and values and assumptions is the
23     message that is being sold to us as inevitable and the
24     only viable economic system, number one.
25  14504                The values and the assumptions that


 1     play out in how that information is relayed to people
 2     within Canadian society about our accepting this
 3     economic system and when transnational corporations,
 4     for example, push governments to adopt a multilateral
 5     agreement on investment, for example, the analysis of
 6     the impact on women, on indigenous people, on work of
 7     people living in poverty isn't done for the main part. 
 8     What is done is a selling job to the public as to why
 9     this is good, not in terms of any possible negative
10     impacts.  I mean all of a sudden now the Finance
11     Minister is talking about the market not being always
12     right after all.
13  14505                For the past 10 years, we have heard
14     that the market is always right.  So how can you, as a
15     community that may have other opinions, influence the
16     wider Canadian society when everyone is saying the
17     market is always right.  You switch to CBC.  You switch
18     to CNN.  You hear the Prime Minister, the Finance. 
19     Everybody is saying this.  And the opinions of those of
20     us who fare impacted negatively about the market isn't
21     said at the same time or included in any analysis of
22     this new perspective around the market.
23  14506                So the analysis is a major piece and,
24     yes, we all want to do business, hear what's happening
25     in terms of business. But the hidden costs to many of


 1     us are not put out.
 2  14507                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would suspect
 3     that these hidden costs are also borne by white males. 
 4     We know white males and business people and some white
 5     women or women of colour are business people.
 6  14508                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  Yes, you are --
 7  14509                THE CHAIRPERSON:  You would agree
 8     that the difficult part of all this is to get the
 9     analysis to address the various segments of society and
10     the manner in which any business occurrence or budget
11     decision will affect them.  And I would think that that
12     would include a whole lot of groups, including white
13     males who are other than the business white males who
14     are in the business itself.  And that's very difficult
15     because that's getting into actual programming content
16     and how it's addressed.  It's an endemic problem in the
17     press.  It's an endemic problem in the media.
18  14510                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  And that's why
19     I'm saying the values and assumption of the voice that
20     is heard is only -- Tom's values and assumptions aren't
21     the ones that we are hearing.  We are hearing the
22     values and the assumptions of a particular group of
23     business people who are saying this is what we must
24     accept.  We are not getting that counter balance with
25     even the white male voices that have different values


 1     and assumptions
 2                                                        1220
 3  14511                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  That is why I am
 4     saying the values and assumption of the voice that is
 5     heard is the only -- Tom's values and assumptions are
 6     the ones that we are hearing.  We are hearing the
 7     values and the assumption of a particularly elite group
 8     of business people who are saying this is what we must
 9     accept.  We are not getting that counterbalance with
10     even other white male voices that have different values
11     and assumptions.
12  14512                So, if we look at values, the
13     principle of values, that's the piece where I think the
14     problem filters down and how the analysis is then
15     constructed.
16  14513                MS RICHE:  We tend to use the word
17     "business" as something greater than it is because the
18     shows are called business shows.  It's the perspective
19     from which it is presented and that's a choice by the
20     television stations by who they invite to come and do
21     the analysis.  I mean somebody sits in a room and they
22     decide who is the expert in it.
23  14514                If it never goes beyond that, then it
24     will always be the same people that they will call who
25     are the experts.  I mean all of us in this room could


 1     name the six or seven people who do the kind of
 2     business analysis that we see.  It is not merely a
 3     report.  It is the analysis.
 4  14515                If we watch the fall of the loony and
 5     listen to those people who said, "Well, it can go much
 6     further.  This is quite all right.  Relax.  Chill out." 
 7     And a week later I saw exactly the same person saying,
 8     "It's time to panic."  I even questioned the ability of
 9     the person to give the analysis at the time, thinking
10     how come this person keeps continuously being asked to
11     do this.
12  14516                If those people they ask are not able
13     to give the impact of the particular story on all
14     segments of society, and it appears they aren't if we
15     are concerned that some voices are not being heard,
16     then other voices have to be brought to the table
17     because we do not hear the balance in the view and I
18     understand that.  I understand that.  I mean, people
19     speak from their perspective, from their cognitive
20     structure, from their own experiences.  I mean that's
21     where they speak to.
22  14517                So that means then you go to Joan's
23     point of other faces, other voices have to be there
24     because I don't think we can trust those who are there
25     to just expand their analysis to make sure everybody is


 1     included or every sector is included.
 2  14518                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Maybe the next time
 3     Mr. O'Brien is invited on those programs he will have
 4     to decline in favour of someone else.
 5  14519                MS RICHE:  Exactly.
 6  14520                MR. O'BRIEN:  Thank you, Nancy.
 7  14521                We see business news as a misnomer. 
 8     It is managers' news and investors' news.  It is not
 9     news from the point of view -- it is rarely news from
10     the point of view of the consumers who buy the products
11     and the services and from the workers who manufacture
12     or serve those products or services.
13  14522                Obviously this is anecdotal, but it
14     actually speaks to the intervenor funding issue because
15     I notice that, for instance, the Public Interest
16     Advocacy Centre was on last week and they represented
17     four organizations.  When they have been before this
18     Commission in the past in other hearings on other
19     issues, they have gotten intervenor funding to do the
20     economic analysis and the legal analysis that allows
21     them essentially to compete intellectually with some of
22     the well-funded heavyweights that have appeared before
23     you.
24  14523                If intervenor funding was available
25     for this particular hearing maybe we could have done


 1     the kind of quantitative analysis of how many hours and
 2     minutes of business news there is in fact on the air,
 3     as well as the qualitative analysis of the content of
 4     that business news.
 5  14524                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Intervenor funding
 6     is, of course, a problem that goes beyond what the
 7     Commission would like to do, but, on the other hand,
 8     organizations such as yours decide where they spend
 9     their funds.
10  14525                You were talking of choice earlier,
11     Madam Riche, and there is a point at which choices are
12     made, including by your organization as to how much
13     energy to put into any particular process, depending on
14     how important you find it to be.
15  14526                MS RICHE:  We are in the position to
16     make the choice.  I think what we are saying is there
17     are groups that are not even at that point to make the
18     choice, as we are.
19  14527                THE CHAIRPERSON:  And we do operate
20     under two different Acts of Parliament, so that
21     presents a problem as to what the powers are to assign
22     anyone's costs, but they have been making that point
23     and we are hearing it.
24  14528                MR. O'BRIEN:  One last thing, Madam
25     Chair.  We understand that the Canadian Association of


 1     Broadcasters, that is private broadcasters, has spent
 2     three-quarters of a million dollars preparing for this
 3     hearing -- preparing their brief for this hearing.
 4  14529                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would very much
 5     hesitate to put a price or a value on the information
 6     they brought us, so I am not going to comment.
 7  14530                MR. O'BRIEN:  I was just going to say
 8     if in fact that's true, even the Canadian Labour
 9     Congress, with our resources, could never spend that
10     kind of money preparing for one hearing.  I don't think
11     there is a non-profit organization -- maybe all of us
12     combined could spend that kind of money preparing for
13     one hearing.
14  14531                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam
15     Grant-Cummings, you mentioned earlier the difficulty of
16     Media Watch not being able to afford to come and make a
17     presentation here.  Are you aware whether they appeared
18     at any of the June town hall meetings we conducted
19     across Canada?
20  14532                MS GRANT-CUMMINGS:  No.  They didn't
21     relay that to us, but certainly in us coming here we
22     communicated with Media Watch to find out whether or
23     not they would be able to participate and they told us
24     they wouldn't.
25  14533                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because there is


 1     obviously more than today's opportunity to appear.  The
 2     Commission did make an effort in June to have open
 3     meetings in a number of cities across Canada and, of
 4     course, any written submission that is before us gets
 5     equal weight.  We have them, we read them and we take
 6     them into consideration.
 7  14534                I would be surprised if we didn't
 8     hear from Media Watch at some of those meetings, but
 9     they were certainly there in a number of cities to
10     facilitate public access, which we are trying very hard
11     to enlarge by making it easier and not requiring that
12     everybody come to Hull in this process.  I would like
13     to assure you that the transcripts of those town hall
14     meetings or roundtables are part of the record of this
15     process and has the same weight as the transcript of
16     what is occurring today.
17  14535                We do thank you for coming.  We
18     regret if we were not able to accommodate you
19     perfectly.  We enjoyed having you and we hope we will
20     see you again.
21  14536                Thank you, Madam Riche, Madam
22     Grant-Cummings and Mr. O'Brien.
23  14537                MS RICHE:  Thank you.
24  14538                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.
25  14539                Mme SANTERRE:  Merci, Madame la


 1     Présidente.
 2  14540                The next presentation will be done by
 3     ACTRA, Alliance of Canadian Cinema, Television and
 4     Radio Artists.
 5  14541                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would appreciate
 6     it if you would introduce yourselves again because I
 7     was distracted while you did.  Saturday I mistook a man
 8     for a woman, so I did not do very well by having missed
 9     the introduction and the change.  To my horror it was a
10     writer of "Legends of Ottawa Valley Mishaps," so
11     hopefully he will be kind if he writes one about this.
12  14542                I would appreciate it if you
13     reintroduce yourselves because I did miss your names.
14  14543                MR. GROMOFF:  I am Brian Gromoff.  I
15     am the President of ACTRA.  Thank you.
16  14544                THE CHAIRPERSON:  And your colleague?
17  14545                MR. GROMOFF:  My colleague is --
18  14546                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, you don't know
19     either.
20  14547                MR. GROMOFF:  Garry Neil, who is our
21     policy advisor.
22  14548                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
24  14549                MR. GROMOFF:  Thank you, Madam Wylie
25     and Commissioners.  Congratulations on your appointment


 1     as Vice-Chair of the Commission and best wishes to
 2     Madam Bertrand for a speedy recovery.
 3  14550                Let me first say how delighted I am
 4     to appear before you today.  My name is Brian Gromoff. 
 5     I am an actor in Calgary and President of the ACTRA
 6     Performers Guild.  With me is Garry Neil, ACTRA's
 7     policy advisor.
 8  14551                Now, for more than 50 years ACTRA and
 9     its predecessor organizations have represented
10     professional artists working in Canada's audio-visual
11     industry.  ACTRA today represents the collective
12     bargaining needs of more than 11,000 members who work
13     in the Canadian television programs produced from cost
14     to coast which are at the heart of your deliberations.
15  14552                I am also honoured to follow in the
16     footsteps of previous ACTRA Presidents who have
17     appeared before you and your predecessors, even as far
18     back as the Board of Broadcast Governors on many
19     occasions to discuss the issues of today.
20  14553                As we look back over the many
21     appearances ACTRA has made over the years, one theme
22     has been central to our representations -- Canada's
23     professional performing community believes passionately
24     that Canada must have a strong Canadian presence
25     through its artists and creators in all media and in


 1     all genre of production.
 2  14554                While the central theme of our
 3     representations has remained remarkably consistent over
 4     more than 30 years, the changing environment has
 5     resulted in bringing forward many different ideas about
 6     how we can provide that choice in each era.  Some of
 7     ACTRA's ideas have found their way into regulations and
 8     policies; other have not.  Overall, ACTRA has a proud
 9     legacy.
10  14555                I put today's discussion in this
11     historical context because I believe we must first of
12     all celebrate the tremendous accomplishments of
13     Canada's television system.  Despite the challenges of
14     financing and competition from our southern neighbour,
15     the past 15 years has seen a huge growth in the number
16     and quality of Canadian programs.
17  14556                Canadian programs are exported to
18     world audiences and some Canadian performers, we can
19     think of Paul Gross, Sonja Smits, Bill Hurt, Sara
20     Polly, Graham Green, and many others, have become stars
21     in our own country.  And for those of us that saw the
22     Gemini's last night, I think that will be proof indeed.
23  14557                Every part of the system deserves
24     credit for this success, independent producers, the
25     CBC, the CRTC, private broadcasters, actors, directors


 1     and technicians, but we all know that problems remain. 
 2     While Canadians enjoy a broad range of news and
 3     information program choices, there are not enough
 4     Canadian entertainment programs available.  We still do
 5     not have an adequate supply of quality Canadian drama,
 6     variety, children's, serious music and dance programs
 7     to meet our needs.
 8  14558                Now, some have argued at these
 9     hearings that because of technological change,
10     expanding communal choice in both services and
11     suppliers and globalization, the CRTC should reduce,
12     eliminate or rollback the regulations which are the
13     foundation of the success.
14  14559                ACTRA rejects these arguments and
15     believes these hearings must be about how we can build
16     on the success you help to create and move to the next
17     level of development.  ACTRA believes that we can build
18     a system in which Canadians can choose from among a
19     range of high quality Canadian programs in every genre
20     at any time of the day.
21  14560                It is in this context that ACTRA has
22     put forward its proposals for your consideration and
23     for discussion among our colleagues and the public.  I
24     would just like to go through the key points from our
25     submission.


 1  14561                One, jointly with the Directors Guild
 2     of Canada, the Writers Guild of Canada and others,
 3     ACTRA submits that the CRTC should establish a new
 4     bench mark for private conventional broadcasters.  The
 5     bench mark would provide that each licensee must spend
 6     no less than 7 per cent of gross revenues on
 7     entertainment programs -- that is Category 7, 8 and
 8     9 -- and must schedule on a weekly basis seven hours of
 9     first run entertainment programs between the hours of
10     7:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m.
11  14562                Now, in tabling this proposal we
12     reject the negative scenario about future prospects of
13     private broadcasters put before you by the Canadian
14     Association of Broadcasters and believe that these
15     broadcasters will remain profitable into the next
16     century, albeit with rates of return which are lower
17     than they have achieved in the past few years.  A small
18     price to pay for a truly Canadian set of choices.
19  14563                Secondly, members of ACTRA want to
20     work, to practice the craft for which we have trained
21     for years.  And while work opportunities are important,
22     most members I talked to want most of all to work on
23     Canadian programs which tell our stories because we
24     understand the impact of and, therefore, the cultural
25     importance of television.


 1  14564                But ACTRA firmly rejects the argument
 2     of some intervenors that Canadian artists should be
 3     limited only to telling stories about Canada, the
 4     wheat, cowboy and beaver syndrome.  We must continue to
 5     be free to tell stories about any topic we want.
 6  14565                ACTRA supports the maintenance of the
 7     principal which underlies the point system.
 8  14566                If Canadian artists tell the story
 9     regardless of the topic and where it is set, we will
10     bring a Canadian sensibility and perspective to it. 
11     But ACTRA does believe that it is time to increase the
12     on-screen presence of Canadians in Canadian content
13     programming.
14  14567                This will address the desire of those
15     intervenors who want to see a more distinctively
16     Canadian orientation on the television screen.  It is
17     for this reason that ACTRA has proposed that the
18     existing point system be revised to increase the number
19     of points awarded for performer categories from two to
20     four.
21  14568                In ACTRA's proposal the lead
22     performer would be awarded two points and one point
23     would be awarded each of the second and third leads.  A
24     producer would be required to obtain at least two
25     points for the performer categories to qualify the


 1     program as Cancon.
 2  14569                ACTRA believes the CRTC should also
 3     give serious consideration to increasing the minimum
 4     threshold to achieve Canadian status.  In the existing
 5     point system it is perhaps time to establish a new
 6     minimum of eight out of ten points.  In the new system
 7     proposed by ACTRA, 10 out of 12 will be required to
 8     achieve recognition as a Canadian program.
 9  14570                Thirdly, ACTRA has advanced a
10     proposal which will help the system to achieve its
11     promise in the next century.  We share concerns
12     expressed to you about the precipitous decline in local
13     programming.  We believe that BDUs should do more to
14     support Cancon production.  The system overall needs
15     more serious music and dance programs and perhaps a
16     mechanism could be found to obtain a contribution
17     towards Canadian production from U.S. services
18     distributed in Canada.
19  14571                ACTRA has filed a comprehensive
20     submission on all the issues in the CRTC's Public
21     Notices and we would be pleased to discuss any of these
22     with you.  Thank you.
23  14572                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
24     Cardozo.
25  14573                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,


 1     Madam Chair.
 2  14574                Thank you, Mr. Gromoff.
 3  14575                What I would like to do is to go
 4     through some of the recommendations you have put
 5     forward in your written brief and have talked to today
 6     as well.  Let me start with the CBC and perhaps in the
 7     written brief more than today.  You talk about the CBC
 8     being the cornerstone, and this is in Recommendation 5,
 9     being the cornerstone of the broadcasting world.  Are
10     there things about the CBC that you think are important
11     for the CBC to do in this cornerstone role and are
12     there things that you would see them doing which the
13     private broadcasters would either not be interested or
14     not be doing for any other reason?
15  14576                MR. NEIL:  In our view, the CBC has a
16     comprehensive to play in the system and it should be
17     providing a range of programming, alternatives, and a
18     range of news and information programming.
19  14577                It will naturally because of its
20     public nature be able to do some things which private
21     broadcasters are unable to do.  Particularly, it should
22     be more of a risk taker perhaps.  It should be doing --
23     certainly it should have greater obligations in some of
24     the social issues that you were discussing with the
25     previous intervenors.


 1  14578                But we don't see that the CBC should
 2     not be involved in something because the private sector
 3     is doing it.  We think that the CBC ought to be
 4     properly funded to do all of the things which the
 5     Broadcasting Act says it will do.
 6  14579                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.
 7  14580                How about high profile sports events
 8     which are bid for in very big dollar terms and some
 9     private broadcasters have suggested that the CBC has
10     much deeper pockets and, therefore, there isn't a fair
11     competition when the bidding goes on for those types of
12     programming?
13  14581                MR. NEIL:  In a universe while in an
14     ideal world it may be that the CBC's contribution in
15     the sports area will be in more locally and regionally
16     based or perhaps in sports that aren't as well covered
17     as others, we are far from an ideal world.  I would
18     have a tough time accepting that the CBC would have to
19     get out of sports programming in a universe in which
20     they are not sufficiently funded.
21  14582                It is my understanding that the CBC
22     continues to make a considerable amount of money on
23     sports programming, which then can subsidize other
24     parts of the program schedule.  The CBC after all is
25     the first conventional broadcaster to be truly Canadian


 1     in its prime time hours and that costs money.
 2  14583                So, to the extent that we don't get
 3     to that ideal world where public dollars are fully
 4     supporting the CBC, then I would have a tough time
 5     personally in saying that the CBC ought to get out of
 6     something in which they can make money to contribute to
 7     their other objectives.
 8  14584                MR. GROMOFF:  We don't believe the
 9     CBC should be ghettoized into producing the only
10     Canadian content.  It is everybody's responsibility who
11     broadcasts in Canada to produce Canadian.
12  14585                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But is it fair
13     to expect as much Canadian broadcasting from the others
14     when the Crown corporation does get quite a bit of
15     public funding?  Is it fair to believe that there will
16     be a differential in who does how many hours?
17  14586                MR. NEIL:  Absolutely.  There should
18     be a differential.  We think that differential is
19     happening.  We are not proposing in here the seven
20     hours of original Category 7, 8 and 9 programming per
21     week for conventional broadcasters is still much less
22     than the CBC has in their current schedule.  So, we
23     don't see that the contribution of each is going to be
24     identical.
25  14587                We think that the CBC is now


 1     basically taking the right approach, that in its
 2     prime-time schedule it is Canadian.  Where it uses
 3     foreign material it should be foreign material that is
 4     not otherwise available to us, which would mean
 5     essentially non-commercial -- non-U.S. commercial or
 6     programming from other parts of the world.
 7                                                        1240
 8  14588                But again, going back to the sports
 9     programming, just where they make a considerable amount
10     of money at it, it's pretty tough to say that they
11     should get out of it.
12  14589                MR. GROMOFF:  If we look again at the
13     Geminis from last night, the CBC garnered many, many
14     awards for its Canadian content, rather than the public
15     broadcasters, the ad broadcasters.
16  14590                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The best show
17     went to Global for "Traders."
18  14591                MR. GROMOFF:  In one out of 67.
19  14592                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I think they
20     got more than that.  Anyhow, let me move --
21  14593                MR. GROMOFF:  406.
22  14594                MR. NEIL:  And TV Ontario was second
23     in number of awards won.
24  14595                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  In terms of
25     recommendation seven, regarding the regulations for


 1     broadcast undertakings, I put this issue to the CCTA,
 2     Canadian Cable Television Association, last Saturday. 
 3     I liberally read out of your brief and put it to them. 
 4     And they had objection to it on two counts.  One, is
 5     they felt that the increase from five to seven percent,
 6     that two percent would simply get carried through,
 7     transferred over, passed on to the subscriber, who they
 8     felt shouldn't have to cough up more.
 9  14596                And the other is that the limit that
10     you have -- maybe I'll just read this into the record,
11     especially if there are people watching this and
12     wondering what we're talking about.  You say, number
13     seven:
14                            "The CRTC should begin to
15                            increase the contributions made
16                            by broadcasters' [distribution*]
17                            undertakings and others to the
18                            program funds to a new benchmark
19                            of seven percent, and should
20                            limit to two percent the amount
21                            that the BDUs can reduce the
22                            contribution in respect of
23                            spending on community channels."
24                            (As read)
25  14597                So they didn't agree with the seven


 1     percent because it was an increase that would get
 2     passed through to the subscriber, and they felt that
 3     the limit of two percent for their own community
 4     programming would unfairly harm their community
 5     programming.  The point being, that when you've got
 6     community programming, it's important to have a good --
 7     in somebody else's words -- "look and feel to it" in
 8     order to capture those viewers.
 9  14598                What's your response to their
10     response to your recommendation?  And you get the last
11     word, because they're not on again.  At least,
12     verbally.
13  14599                MR. NEIL:  I think there's a big
14     discussion that needs to be had in this country about
15     the community channel and their role and
16     responsibilities.  And ACTRA and indeed, I think, I,
17     personally, have appeared when I was previously at
18     ACTRA before this Commission, and talked about a
19     significant number of problems that we have had over
20     the years with the community channel and the lack of
21     accountability, shall we say, for that resource.
22  14600                And it's in that context that we have
23     put forward this proposal about limiting their ability
24     to otherwise contribute to Canadian content programming
25     through spending on the community channel.


 1  14601                If indeed, the community channel is
 2     becoming an important mechanism by which cable
 3     companies are differentiating themselves in a
 4     increasingly crowded marketplace, then they ought to be
 5     spending their resources internally on that programming
 6     to attract the audiences.  And we don't see that they
 7     should be taking away from -- which is essentially what
 8     it boils down to, otherwise -- their contribution to
 9     Canadian content programming through this spending.
10  14602                With respect to the increase, I guess
11     it's very much, again, one of these cases where it's
12     difficult for us to make a comment about how they are
13     spending their money, and about whether or not an
14     additional contribution could be easily made from
15     companies where we do not have, really, sufficient
16     access to financial information -- much of which is
17     considered to be proprietary -- financial information
18     to truly judge how their resources are being allocated
19     and spent.  And overall, we believe that the
20     recommendation that we have made is quite a reasonable
21     one if we look out over the next few years, and is one
22     that the cable companies could, in fact, absorb.
23  14603                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But you're
24     thinking that the increased two percent, if it were to
25     be put in place, should not be passed on to the


 1     subscriber?
 2  14604                MR. NEIL:  That would be our
 3     preference, yes, absolutely.
 4  14605                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I guess
 5     there'll be more time to discuss that in the review of
 6     the BDU regulations next year.
 7  14606                Just a word about ACTRA Works.  Can
 8     you give us a little bit of background about ACTRA
 9     Works and how it works?
10  14607                MR. GROMOFF:  ACTRA Works is a way in
11     which we believe we can help further train, further
12     enhance the skills of our members, and of non-members,
13     in fact, as well.  We have, within our own
14     organization, members who have taught a lot within the
15     profession, and what we're using is those people to
16     train other people throughout the country, so it's not
17     centralised.  What this is is ongoing professional
18     training for members across the country, done by
19     members in the community.
20  14608                It started out, first of all, with
21     people from Toronto, as it happens, who went across the
22     country.  Now what we're doing is training people
23     within the community in order to train not only actors,
24     but our apprentice members and non-members as well.  So
25     that the the quality of professionalism, the quality of


 1     performance, the quality of talent can be increased
 2     throughout the country.
 3  14609                MR. NEIL:  So as we note, it's an
 4     independent, not-for-profit agency now.  That's the
 5     legal structure of it.  And it organises and delivers
 6     training programs.  So programs in dialects, or
 7     auditioning techniques, or techniques for film versus
 8     television, specialised things that performers need to
 9     know if they're going to keep up to date with their
10     profession.
11  14610                MR. GROMOFF:  It's there also to make
12     certain that, let's say, theatre actors who haven't had
13     much television experience can now start getting that
14     television experience are given training in that. 
15     People who haven't done voice work, haven't done
16     dubbing, haven't done animation, they can exposure to
17     that.
18  14611                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And what's the
19     source of its income now?
20  14612                MR. GROMOFF:  Source of income --
21     originally, it got money from CHRC, and ACTRA
22     fraternal, and ACTRA Performers Guild itself.  And
23     there was a charge to members.  What we found was that
24     across the country, most of the branches, because they
25     wanted their members to take these courses, would, in


 1     fact, subsidise their members in order to take the
 2     courses.
 3  14613                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  In
 4     recommendation eight, you talked about commercials and
 5     promotion, and if I can summarise, you said that the
 6     CRTC should encourage production of Canadian
 7     commercials and airing of these commercials during
 8     prime time.  One of the ways to encourage that that has
 9     been suggested by some intervenors has been that we
10     recognise Canadian commercials as Canadian content.  Is
11     that the kind of encouragement you're talking about? 
12     Because these are going to be your actors, right?
13  14614                MR. NEIL:  Yeah.  We haven't thought
14     of that in particular, but it's certainly one that
15     sounds to me to be a positive incentive.  The problem
16     in the commercial field is that -- I don't think we
17     have this figure in here, because the campaign that we
18     allude to in the written document has not yet gotten
19     off the ground.  It's a campaign that we're trying to
20     develop jointly with the advertising industry, both the
21     advertising agencies and the advertisers, who are
22     represented by the Association of Canadian Advertisers.
23  14615                We have seen a serious decline in the
24     volume of commercial production in Canada to the level
25     of probably only half of the television commercials in


 1     English that are broadcast on Canadian television are
 2     now produced in Canada.
 3  14616                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Of Canadian
 4     products?
 5  14617                MR. NEIL:  No, this is overall of
 6     commercial time placed on the Canadian broadcasting
 7     system.  It's hard to come up with a figure, because
 8     you guys stopped collecting figures on commercials a
 9     number of years ago.  That was part of the first round
10     of deregulation.  It's hard to come up with figures. 
11     What we rely on is Telecaster, which is an agency
12     through which advertisers go to when they have a
13     commercial they wish to place in the Canadian system. 
14     So roughly, in our estimate, and this is not just us,
15     but the advertising industry as well, roughly half of
16     the commercials that are placed in the Canadian
17     advertising system now originate outside the country. 
18     So, if your product is a product that's available both
19     in Canada and the United States, then you're able
20     simply to place a US commercial and advertise that
21     product.
22  14618                So the problem becomes even more
23     significant if that overall 50 percent figure is more
24     or less accurate -- and we believe it to be -- if you
25     have a product that's uniquely Canadian, like you're a


 1     Canadian government which is advertising, which is
 2     done; or you're a Canadian lottery, which is
 3     advertising, which advertises extensively; or a
 4     Canadian beer product, which is advertising
 5     extensively -- those have to be Canadian production.
 6  14619                So what it means to us, is that some
 7     of the products which are sold globally, or certainly
 8     throughout North America -- those commercials for those
 9     products in the Canadian system are now almost entirely
10     made outside of Canada.  So we don't have the work
11     opportunities, and more importantly, there's a cultural
12     message in commercials.  It shows the sensibility of a
13     culture.
14  14620                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So you can see
15     this counting of commercials as Canadian content, so
16     long as they're produced in Canada, and therefore you
17     would give them a preference.
18  14621                MR. GROMOFF:  It's an interesting
19     concept, one that I think we'd have to discuss and
20     think about, but it is an idea.  Yes, it is an idea. 
21     And I think what I'm getting from you is that all we're
22     interested in is the work.  It's not just the work.  As
23     I said in my brief, it's also the Canadian sensibility,
24     and as Garry has said, there's Canadian sensibility to
25     those commercials as well.


 1  14622                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If you've got
 2     any further thoughts on that, let us know by the fabled
 3     date of October the 15th.
 4  14623                MR. GROMOFF:  Thank you.
 5  14624                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you have
 6     any other suggestions about how we could encourage
 7     production of Canadian commercials?
 8  14625                MR. NEIL:  The principal one that
 9     we're working on with the industry, is to go jointly to
10     government and seek the expansion of the tax credit
11     program, which would then provide an encouragement for
12     producers of commercials to produce them here, because
13     there would be a certain credit that they'd receive for
14     the hiring of Canadians as talent and technicians and
15     so forth.  So that's the principal --
16  14626                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That's a tax
17     measure, then?
18  14627                MR. NEIL:  Yes.
19  14628                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So it wouldn't
20     be within our --
21  14629                MR. NEIL:  No, it would not be within
22     your bailiwick.  Aside from that, despite our best
23     efforts, we have been unable to come up with other
24     measures that we could see that you could take that
25     would assist.


 1  14630                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What are your
 2     thoughts about infomercials, which are growing in
 3     number?  There's been a recommendation, at least one,
 4     that infomercials produced in Canada be recognised as
 5     Canadian content.
 6  14631                MR. NEIL:  I think the only way that
 7     we would be prepared to consider that would be in the
 8     context of increased requirements for Canadian content. 
 9     So if the requirements for Canadian content don't
10     change, then I think we would have difficulty in
11     accepting a change that would have the effect of
12     including infomercials.
13  14632                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But isn't it a
14     problem if we upped it by, say, one hour a week and
15     said you can do one hour of infomercials a week as
16     well, that's what would happen, and all we'd be doing
17     is just saying, go out and do an hour of infomercials. 
18     Unless it was two hours for one or something like that.
19  14633                MR. GROMOFF:  I think what we've got
20     to be careful of, is that in the end everyone's doing
21     anything else but Canadian content.
22  14634                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Infomercial --
23  14635                MR. GROMOFF:  Yeah, infomercial is
24     slightly different from Canadian drama or Canadian
25     music variety, et cetera.


 1  14636                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, in
 2     recommendation nine, you talked about incentives for
 3     local programming, an issue that has come to us
 4     repeatedly in our round tables that we had across the
 5     country in June, as well as in some of the hearings so
 6     far.  Any specific incentives you'd suggest for local
 7     programming?
 8  14637                MR. NEIL:  One of the things that we
 9     have in our brief is this notion that maybe we should
10     be looking at the incentive system, which you already
11     have in a small form, the 150 percent credit for
12     Canadian drama in prime time.  Maybe we should look at
13     that whole system to provide both incentives and
14     disincentives, as we were, because maybe we should
15     weight different kinds of programming in different
16     ways.  And, you know, at the one extreme, maybe we
17     should only be offering a 75 percent credit if it's a
18     news or information program or a sports program, and
19     maybe there should be a higher credit if it's a feature
20     film designed for theatrical release, that actually has
21     theatrical release, but then subsequently goes to the
22     broadcasting system.  In such an environment, then it
23     may be possible to have additional credits for local
24     programming, particularly if that local production is
25     in some of the underrepresented categories.


 1  14638                I'm old enough to remember when we
 2     used to have, on some stations, local variety, you
 3     know.  Never much local drama, but certainly local
 4     variety.  And that's disappeared from the system.
 5  14639                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You're older
 6     than you look.
 7  14640                MR. NEIL:  I've been at this game a
 8     long time.
 9  14641                MR. GROMOFF:  You had local drama on
10     radio.
11  14642                MR. NEIL:  So that would be one idea,
12     because you might then be able to factor various kinds
13     of programming and create credit incentives for certain
14     kinds of programming and perhaps a modest disincentive
15     for another kind of programming.  That's one idea that
16     we had.
17  14643                Another idea that may be useful to
18     consider for all of us, was the idea the Friends of
19     Canadian Broadcasting brought forward, which would be
20     to try to create a pool of money through the CTCPF, or
21     whatever it's now called, that would be available for
22     local production.
23  14644                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, in
24     recommendation ten, you talked about encouraging
25     broader input into the CRTC process.  That issue isn't


 1     exactly the issue of this hearing, but perhaps you can
 2     just briefly give us any specific ideas about how we
 3     could encourage broader participation in our process?
 4  14645                MR. NEIL:  First of all, I think the
 5     way you've conducted these hearings, and particularly
 6     the public consultation process, is an excellent
 7     example of that.  That was an idea that we found very,
 8     very exciting.  And I'm not sure if many of our local
 9     branches took advantage of that opportunity, but it's
10     certainly a way you can have much broader input to
11     these processes.
12  14646                I think we have to find a way to
13     provide some funding for organisations that cannot
14     match the financial resources that other organisations
15     have to find a way to have some kind of support for
16     intervenors -- certain kinds of intervenors.
17  14647                There are people that you really
18     should be hearing from that unfortunately you can't
19     hear from, even in that kind of process of public
20     consultations around the country, because that doesn't
21     go to the question of research, for example.
22  14648                You know, none of us is able to come
23     before you -- the last intervenor, indeed, in our own
24     document we talk about the need to talk about the study
25     of gender portrayal in the system.  Ten or 15 years


 1     ago, ACTRA may have been in a position itself where, in
 2     preparation for these hearings, it would have
 3     undertaken some kind of survey.  We have done that in
 4     the past.  But we don't have the resources where we can
 5     do that any more.  So we're unable to bring before you
 6     any research on that issue, which is a really important
 7     one.
 8  14649                So I think in the end, we have to
 9     find a way where some of that kind of public interest
10     representation can be supported actively and
11     financially by the Commission.
12  14650                MR. GROMOFF:  It's just to make
13     certain that we don't have any disenfranchised groups
14     that cannot somehow get to the hearings in one way or
15     another.  It may mean better advertising of your
16     travels across the country.  It may mean better making
17     certain that you communicate with those groups, rather
18     than those groups having to find out.
19  14651                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So maybe we
20     could have Canadian content advertising, maybe by your
21     members, and give that 200 percent credit.  That's one
22     way to get the word out.
23  14652                On page 21, you've talked about
24     cultural diversity, and you've simply said continue to
25     monitor and regulate, apply conditions of licence.  I


 1     wonder if you've got any specifics on that in terms of
 2     conditions of licence?  That was in response to the
 3     question we had raised about the reflection of cultural
 4     and racial minorities and aboriginal peoples.
 5  14653                MR. NEIL:  Here again, I think that
 6     we're in a position where we're unable to bring you
 7     more concrete research and background, but certainly,
 8     once again, if we look to the potential of some kind of 
 9     bonusing system that is much more detailed than the one
10     you currently have, that also has certain what I've
11     been calling disincentives, you can see incentives
12     working their way through that kind of approach.
13  14654                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  An incentive
14     to what effect?
15  14655                MR. NEIL:  If you have certain kinds
16     of programming, for example, you might find that you
17     have a greater incentive if there's a particular kind
18     of program that's useful for a particular community,
19     comes out of that community for broader distribution. 
20     That kind of thing.
21                                                        1305
22  14656                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  My memory is a
23     bit weak on this, but a few years ago, as I recall it,
24     ACTRA put together a book out of -- somebody in your
25     Toronto operation I suppose, which was a catalogue of


 1     ACTRA members from racial minority groups I think.  I
 2     wonder if you have any more information on how that
 3     project has gone.
 4  14657                MR. GROMOFF:  That was "Into the
 5     Mainstream"?
 6  14658                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That's right,
 7     yes.
 8  14659                MR. GROMOFF:  It was a kind of
 9     counterbalance to "Face to Face", which was the book in
10     which both theatre people and television and film
11     people were in.
12  14660                We found that, as the previous
13     intervener has said, there is not enough representation
14     of visual, et cetera, minorities, so we decided that
15     this would be a wonderful way to promote our members
16     who were out of the mainstream, trying to get them into
17     the mainstream.  We financed that through ACTRA.
18  14661                Also, ACTRA Fraternal and Ontario, et
19     cetera, some other funding agencies came through with
20     money, and we made it so that it was free, in fact, to
21     members to go into the book.  Then gradually, because
22     of costs and because of lack of funding, we had to
23     start charging members.
24  14662                Now, what we have done is in fact
25     integrated them into the whole of "Face to Face".  So


 1     what we are now saying is, you are in the mainstream
 2     now.
 3  14663                We found that various producers
 4     certainly looked at it and used members from it, and we
 5     found it a very good tool for our members.
 6     --- Short pause / Courte pause
 7  14664                MR. GROMOFF:  What Gary was saying
 8     was, we also make it easier for members to become
 9     members of ACTRA as visible minorities, et cetera.
10  14665                MR. NEIL:  "Into the Mainstream", we
11     continue to publish that.  It is now fully integrated. 
12     It is also on line.  It is done electronically now, so
13     it is constantly updated.
14  14666                So it is a tool that's used by
15     casting agents, talent agents and the producers
16     themselves and is a widely used tool throughout the
17     North American industry.  It is widely used in the
18     U.S., for example.
19  14667                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It is a
20     catalogue of profiles of actors.
21  14668                MR. NEIL:  That's right, yes.
22  14669                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Could I ask
23     you to file a copy of -- "Face to Face" is the overall
24     book, is it?
25  14670                MR. GROMOFF:  "Face to Face" is the


 1     overall book, and "Face to Face" on line is the
 2     computer set-up.  Then there is "Into the Mainstream",
 3     which was another book.
 4  14671                Would you like a copy of that?
 5  14672                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Could I ask
 6     you to file a copy of both, "Into the Mainstream" as
 7     well as the other?
 8  14673                MR. GROMOFF:  Certainly.
 9  14674                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It is useful
10     to have examples of the kinds of measures people have
11     taken to integrate.
12  14675                Again, if my memory serves me right,
13     in the United States there is a part of ACTRA that's
14     called -- there is a group called Black ACTRA.  Are you
15     familiar with that at all?
16  14676                MR. GROMOFF:  ACTRA or Black AFTRA?
17  14677                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  My
18     understanding is that was a committee or a group within
19     ACTRA.
20  14678                MR. GROMOFF:  There is an Equal
21     Opportunities Committee within our organization.
22  14679                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Oh, is there?
23  14680                MR. GROMOFF:  Yes, and each of the
24     branches have their own --
25  14681                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  When you are


 1     sending that in, if you could send any information on
 2     the Equal Opportunities Committee, that would be
 3     helpful too.
 4  14682                MR. GROMOFF:  Certainly.
 5  14683                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you have
 6     any other specifics to add to the recommendation on
 7     page 21 regarding the study on gender portrayal that we
 8     have talked about today so far?
 9  14684                MR. GROMOFF:  No.
10  14685                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.
11  14686                Lastly, let me come back to the
12     central issue of your oral presentation, which is the
13     7/7 and 7 to 11, but also the issue of identifiably
14     Canadian, because I am hearing two things:  on the one
15     hand, that your actors should be able to act and be
16     part of everything, whether it is identifiably Canadian
17     or not, but you also want to have -- maybe I am not
18     hearing different things -- that in order for it to be
19     identifiably Canadian, the lead performer should count
20     for two points, and that it is that more than the theme
21     or the locale that would make it identifiably Canadian.
22  14687                MR. GROMOFF:  It is a combination of
23     all of it and the points system.
24  14688                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Explain it to
25     me once again in summary.


 1  14689                MR. NEIL:  We reject the ideas, some
 2     of which have been put before you, including by the
 3     Canadian Labour Congress, of which we are an affiliate,
 4     that you ought to begin to look at content or thematic
 5     presentation.  We believe that the way you determine
 6     what is and is not Canadian content ought to continue
 7     to be the points system, which identifies the people
 8     who are putting that program together, the creative
 9     elements of the program.  That has to remain the
10     fundamental basis of determining what is and isn't
11     Canadian content.
12  14690                We believe further that those who
13     want that more distinctive presence, to those people,
14     one of the ways that we believe we can bring that more
15     distinctive on-screen presence is by altering that
16     points system to increase the number of points awarded
17     for performer categories from the existing two points
18     to a possible four points, which would then increase
19     the total number of points available to a producer from
20     10 points to 12 points.  Those performer points would
21     be given on the basis of two for the lead performer and
22     one for the second lead, one for the third lead
23     performer.
24  14691                The minimum requirement for a
25     producer -- at the moment they need to have one


 1     performer point -- would move to having at least two
 2     performer points.  So either the lead is Canadian or
 3     both the second and third leads would be Canadian as an
 4     absolute minimum.
 5  14692                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, that
 6     makes sense, but the flip side of the argument is that
 7     part of the reason for this whole drive to have
 8     Canadian content and identifiably or distinctively
 9     Canadian, whatever term you want to use, is this
10     business about telling our stories to each other, and
11     if that story is merely acted out in Vancouver and it
12     is pretend New York, or if it is in a sci-fi movie that
13     could be anywhere, the argument goes you are not doing
14     anything to tell stories to each other or enrich our
15     culture or our understanding of each other.
16  14693                What you are putting forward is a
17     model that is of prime interest to your members in
18     order to get work; I am putting that quite crassly,
19     but -- how do you respond to that?
20  14694                MR. GROMOFF:  What we are talking
21     about when we talk about that topic is that a writer
22     can write about anything they like, but they will bring
23     their Canadianism to that.  The actor will also bring
24     their Canadianism to it.  The director will bring their
25     Canadianism to it.  Whether it is a Canadian story


 1     about wheat or not, or whether it is even an American
 2     story, they will still add their Canadianism to it,
 3     their perspective of that.  That's what we are saying,
 4     we shouldn't narrow it down so that our members --  the
 5     Writers' Guild, the Directors' Guild are only directing
 6     writing and acting in the narrow Canadian story.
 7  14695                Canadian content is us, all of us;
 8     all the creative artists is the Canadian content.
 9  14696                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But if it is
10     Vancouver pretending to be Los Angeles, where is that
11     Canadianism coming through, other than the fact that we
12     pretend to be Americans?
13  14697                MR. GROMOFF:  It is the way it is
14     directed.  It doesn't matter that you see Vancouver and
15     it says, "New York", it is the perspective the director
16     or the writer or the actor has on that situation.
17  14698                MR. NEIL:  I believe last week the
18     Writers' Guild of Canada appeared before you, and I
19     suspect you had at least part of this discussion with
20     them.  We have indeed also had part of this discussion
21     with them.
22  14699                It is very important to distinguish
23     between those programs which truly are Canadian
24     originated and developed and written and those programs
25     which are not.  Some of those programs which are not


 1     can still qualify as Canadian under the existing points
 2     system.
 3  14700                If you want to tackle that question,
 4     in our view, you have to tackle it on the basis of who
 5     is telling that story.  Where is the story idea really
 6     coming from?  Who is developing it?  Who has written
 7     the bible for it?  Who is the story editor, if it is a
 8     series television production?
 9  14701                I think if you go past the facade
10     perhaps of what is coming to you at one level and
11     really examine that question, you will find your
12     answer.  That's why we don't see the Canadianisms in
13     some of those series that are allegedly Canadian
14     because they are really not.  The idea was generated
15     elsewhere, it was developed elsewhere, the bible was
16     written elsewhere, the story editor comes from
17     elsewhere.  And a writer might be hired to write a
18     specific script, but the parameters of that writing are
19     so narrow, so focused that they really don't -- they
20     can't bring any Canadianism to it because they have
21     been given all the characters and how they have
22     developed at that point in the series.
23  14702                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So what you
24     are saying is, rather than Canadians pretending to be
25     Americans, you are describing an insidious plot to


 1     infiltrate the American psyche and interpret Americans
 2     to Americans in a Canadian way.
 3  14703                MR. GROMOFF:  We are already doing
 4     that in comedy.
 5  14704                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Those are my
 6     questions.  Thanks very much.
 7  14705                Thanks, Madam Chair.
 8  14706                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 9     Mr. Gromoff and Mr. Neil.  We thank you for your
10     appearance and presentation.
11  14707                MR. GROMOFF:  Thank you.
12  14708                THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will now take a
13     lunch break and we will resume at 2:00.  Nous
14     reprendrons à 2 h 00.
15     --- Recess at / Suspension à 1315
16     --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1405
17  14709                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon.
18  14710                Madam Secretary, would you ask the
19     next participants to present themselves, please.
20  14711                MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
21  14712                Before I announce the next
22     presentation, for the benefit of the audience, I would
23     like to let people know that Viacom Canada Limited will
24     not be appearing in front of us today.
25  14713                Therefore, I would like to now


 1     announce the presentation of Rogers Cablesystems
 2     Limited.
 3  14714                MS DINSMORE:  Thank you.
 5  14715                MS DINSMORE:  My name is Pam
 6     Dinsmore.  I am the Vice-President of Regulatory for
 7     Rogers Cablesystems.  Before beginning I would like to
 8     introduce my team.
 9  14716                On my left is Robin Mirsky, the
10     Executive Director of both the Rogers Telefund and the
11     Rogers Documentary Fund.  These funds play a critical
12     role in the production of high quality Canadian
13     television programs and feature films.  Robin also sits
14     on a number of industry boards, including the Canadian
15     Television Fund, the Canadian Film Centre, the Banff
16     Television Festival and the National Screen Institute.
17  14717                On my far right is Colette Watson,
18     the Vice-President of Programming and Public Relations
19     for Rogers Cable.  This year both the CRTC and
20     community television celebrate their 30th
21     anniversaries.  Colette is responsible for community
22     television as well as other programming issues.  She is
23     also the Vice-Chair of Cable in the Classroom.
24  14718                On my right is John Tory, the
25     President of Rogers media.  John is filling in for Phil


 1     Lind who, as you may know, is convalescing at home.
 2  14719                In the second row from my left is
 3     Michael Allen, Vice-President of Regulatory Affairs for
 4     Rogers Communications.  Michael is responsible for a
 5     broad range of programming and policy matters.
 6  14720                To Michael's right is our legal
 7     counsel, Robert Buchan, of Johnston & Buchan.
 8  14721                Good afternoon, Madam Chair,
 9     Commissioners.
10  14722                Rogers is a seasoned cable operator
11     with long-standing ties to the independent production
12     sector.  Rogers has been an integral participant in,
13     and contributor to, the Canadian broadcasting system
14     for over three decades.
15  14723                Rogers serves 2.2 million Canadian
16     cable households, and we hear from thousands of
17     television viewers every day about all aspects of our
18     business.  We believe our knowledge of our customers'
19     viewing preferences can help us to make a useful
20     contribution to this comprehensive review of Canadian
21     television policies.
22  14724                Rogers also brings to this forum our
23     expertise in producing, funding and promoting Canadian
24     programming.  Rogers community television produces more
25     than 15,000 hours of original, local Canadian content


 1     every year, in both English and French.  We operate 27
 2     community television studios in British Columbia and
 3     Ontario and employ more than 200 full-time people. 
 4     Over the years, Rogers has trained thousands of
 5     community television programming volunteers.
 6  14725                Rogers is very proud of our
 7     successful, ongoing relationship with Canada's
 8     independent producers.  Since it began in 1980, the
 9     Rogers Telefund has provided approximately $100 million
10     on a revolving fund basis in support of Canadian
11     programming.  Our Documentary Fund, which was
12     established to help sustain the great Canadian
13     tradition of documentary filmmaking, has provided
14     almost $3 million in outright grants to nearly 100
15     English and French documentaries in the past three
16     years.
17  14726                Madam Chair, as you noted in your
18     opening remarks, this hearing is about more programs,
19     better quality and increased profitability.  Through
20     Rogers community television, and our ongoing
21     involvement with Canada's independent producers, we can
22     continue to help the CRTC and the system achieve these
23     goals.
24  14727                We would now like to show you a brief
25     video which shows more eloquently than words could the


 1     contribution that Rogers makes to the production of
 2     high quality Canadian programming.
 3     --- Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
 4                                                        1410
 5  14728                MS DINSMORE:  Rogers would like to
 6     take this opportunity to address two specific issues
 7     that have been raised by several intervenors - namely;
 8     the contribution of US programming services; and the
 9     CAB's proposal regarding 4+1 signal sourcing.
10  14729                Since their introduction into Canada
11     in 1984, US cable channels have served the policy
12     objectives of the Commission by contributing to the
13     development of a stronger Canadian broadcasting system.
14  14730                As linkage partners, they make a
15     substantial dollar contribution to Canadian programming
16     through the discretionary tier revenues that they,
17     along with the Canadian specialty services, help to
18     generate.
19  14731                In 1998, for example, Rogers and its
20     customers will directly contribute more than $42
21     million to the financing of Canadian programming
22     through the 5 per cent of revenue mechanism.
23  14732                Equally important, the US cable
24     channels complement the Canadian broadcasting system by
25     providing diversity in the program choices available to


 1     Canadians.  The CAB and the SPTV have recognized this
 2     in this proceeding.  Both have acknowledged that the US
 3     services provide variety and choice to Canadian
 4     viewers, and that their marketing appeal has helped
 5     increase the penetration of Canadian services.  We are
 6     concerned that any attempt to increase the financial
 7     contribution that US services already make to the
 8     system would, in reality, mean increasing our cost of
 9     doing business.
10  14733                In addition, US cable services
11     provide cable companies with a minimum of two minutes
12     per hour of advertising which is used for the promotion
13     of Canadian programming and distribution services.  Via
14     these local avails, more than 1600 hours per year are
15     made available to Canadian cable channels to promote
16     their own programming.  These local avails are valued
17     at over $4 million in commercial airtime.
18  14734                Rogers opposes any move to change the
19     existing policies regarding the sourcing of US local
20     off air signals, such as the proposal outlined by the
21     CAB.  Rogers believes that all conventional
22     broadcasting signals that are available to television
23     viewers over-the-air in a given market should be
24     distributed to cable customers.
25  14735                The CAB would like us to source the


 1     "4+1" package of US signals from distant geographical
 2     markets.  In Toronto, for example, this would mean
 3     sourcing the signals from Philadelphia or New York,
 4     rather than from Buffalo.
 5  14736                To be frank, this just doesn't make
 6     sense - logically, practically, economically or from a
 7     customer friendliness perspective.
 8  14737                The signals of the Buffalo network
 9     affiliates have been carried by Rogers in Toronto since
10     the introduction of cable.  Our subscribers share
11     regional concerns with Buffalo residents and enjoy
12     Buffalo sports programming and weather forecasts.  They
13     would be outraged if they lost this familiar
14     programming.
15  14738                Sourcing the "4+1" package from
16     distant markets would also add significantly to our
17     costs - an increase of approximately $2.2 million a
18     year in distribution costs and additional copyright
19     royalties - or $1 a subscriber per year, at a time when
20     we are poised to make massive investments in the
21     infrastructure and equipment needed to roll out digital
22     services.
23  14739                Thank you for allowing us the
24     opportunity to contribute to this landmark review.  We
25     would now be happy to answer your questions.


 1  14740                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms.
 2     Dinsmore, and Ladies and Gentlemen.
 3  14741                I will not have many questions.  You
 4     have documented very well the contributions of Rogers
 5     to the programming world and, of course, that was
 6     highlighted very effectively today in your video.
 7  14742                The second area that we don't need to
 8     ask questions about is the transition to a digital
 9     world.  You yourself at page 19 of your written brief
10     say that you look forward to setting out more details
11     of your digital plans in the future and, moreover, you
12     endorse and believe that the CCTA discussion of the
13     issue was fully reflective of the circumstances related
14     to the introduction of digitization, and, therefore,
15     you don't need to add anything to it.
16  14743                After the long discussions we had on
17     Saturday about the CCTA plans, which you acknowledge
18     are yours as well, we will not have questions on that
19     area, but I do have a few questions on areas other than
20     those.
21  14744                I am puzzled.  You may have heard me
22     ask the same questions to Shaw.  I am puzzled at page
23     seven of your written presentation in discussing the
24     Community Channel the use of providing local coverage
25     and the repeated use of the words "television station"


 1     and "station" to identify or characterize the Community
 2     Channel.
 3  14745                Why is that normally those terms
 4     referred to broadcasting undertaking?  Programming
 5     undertaking?
 6  14746                MS DINSMORE:  I take your question. 
 7     I would like to ask Colette Watson, who is responsible
 8     for the Community Channel or community television
 9     programming, to answer that question.
10  14747                MS WATSON:  Thank you, Pam. 
11     Commissioner Wylie, three years ago, we undertook an
12     overhaul of the Community Channel and it occupies six
13     megahertz of spectrum on our offering, just like any
14     other channel does.
15  14748                We needed to get people to recognize
16     that it is a television service, just like any other
17     tenant, if you will, of the six megahertz from two to
18     78.  It's kind of a cultural thing.  We wanted to get
19     people to tune in.
20  14749                Essentially, the content is relevant
21     and interesting and we wanted to promote it.  We just
22     wanted more people to watch it.
23  14750                So, by not bucking the trend, if you
24     will.  By calling it what everyone else calls all the
25     other channels, we decided to call ourselves community


 1     television.  Because that's what it is.  It's output on
 2     television.
 3  14751                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I'm not intrigued
 4     by community television.  I'm intrigued by station. 
 5     You may or may not be aware that Shaw went further and
 6     said, well, in examining what television broadcasters
 7     do in the market, in any market, the Commission and
 8     what the Commission should require from them, that it
 9     should put into the balance what the cable company does
10     on the Community Channel, I gather, as a substitute for
11     less local programming on television stations.
12  14752                I am wondering if your use of that
13     word implies the same thing.  That it is a substitute
14     or a replacement for the local programming on a
15     television station or whether it's just -- Community
16     Television, I don't have a problem with.  It's station
17     I find intriguing.
18  14753                And, as we discussed with Shaw, it
19     raises all kinds of questions as to whether the
20     Commission ought to look at the responsibilities of the
21     television station and the demands of the public for
22     local programming, which have taken some profile in
23     this process, especially when we went to various cities
24     in June to hear the public, whether or not you take the
25     same view, that it can be a replacement.  And then what


 1     would that lead to, considering that unlike television
 2     stations, there's no regulation or there is some but
 3     there's no logs. There's no advertising allowed and so
 4     on.
 5  14754                Should we look at this as a budding
 6     television station or is that just a word you have used
 7     to describe it?  But that it's still, in your view, a
 8     community channel in the sense that it was intended to
 9     be.
10  14755                MS WATSON:  Well, in the sense that
11     it was intended to be in the 1968 policy has evolved in
12     the 1991 policy and it has evolved in terms of where we
13     sit in a competitive environment.
14  14756                We call our installations, if you
15     will, the facilities where we have studios and cameras
16     and edit suites and trucks.  We call them stations
17     because that's what they are.
18  14757                They're also a training ground for
19     the next generation of independent producers in this
20     country and so it allows us a bit of credibility, if
21     you will, in terms of being recognized for the output
22     that we provide the system.
23  14758                Now we do operate within a regulated
24     framework and we do have to maintain logs and we
25     produce 15,000 hours of original Canadian content every


 1     year.
 2  14759                And so we are looking for a little
 3     credibility for those hours.  We have given birth to
 4     some of Canada's current stars.  Tom Green never would
 5     have had a chance.  Tom Green came to us four years ago
 6     when no one else would look at him.  He has had a
 7     series, after two years with us, he's had a series on
 8     CBC.  He's got a series on the Comedy Channel now and
 9     he's doing a feature film.  He couldn't get a break
10     before.
11  14760                So the fact that we call ourselves
12     television stations.  We call the bricks and mortar
13     where we house the studio and lights and monitors a
14     station doesn't change what our philosophy is.  And our
15     philosophy is to bring local community-based stories to
16     the communities which we serve. If it's not local and
17     it's not relevant, it's not on our schedule.
18  14761                Now local is not mutually exclusive
19     to relevant. It can be locally relevant or it can be
20     relevant.  We had some call-ins last year on locating
21     casinos.  Well, we put it on all our stations because
22     Ottawa was looking at putting a casino in.  Hamilton
23     and Niagara Falls.  And so although the show was
24     produced in Toronto, it was locally relevant to all of
25     those markets.  So there are two definitions of what's


 1     locally relevant.  Well, you can't get more locally
 2     relevant than what goes on at your city council.  You
 3     can't get more locally relevant than what happens with
 4     your school boards and what's happening with the
 5     ratepayer's association and just what's happening
 6     generally in your community on a daily basis.
 7  14762                THE CHAIRPERSON:  By "logs," I meant
 8     the amount of news as opposed to some other programming
 9     that there isn't the same -- I know the Community
10     Channel has some regulations.
11  14763                Let me be more precise.  I have no
12     problem with you telling us how well put together the
13     Community Channel is and the contribution it's making,
14     but we are looking now at how to redefine or reorganize
15     perhaps some aspects of the policies that govern
16     over-the-air television.
17  14764                So my precise question is:  Is it
18     your view as it appeared to have been Shaw's, that the
19     Community Channel in the regulatory scheme could be
20     seen as a replacement for the local programming efforts
21     of the local television station, which was the aim of
22     my question in the context of this particular hearing
23     and because we have had this discussion with Shaw where
24     they actually went the extra step.
25  14765                So I thought, as a company that's


 1     involved in community programming, whether you had a
 2     comment about that tradeoff, whether that would serve
 3     the broadcasting system well.
 4  14766                MS WATSON:  Let me clarify for you
 5     the difference between the direction that Shaw has gone
 6     with community television and the direction in which we
 7     have gone.
 8  14767                Shaw has very different output in
 9     terms of community television.  They have, I guess, a
10     service that provides community information, billboard
11     and it's kind of a multi-layered screen, if you will.
12  14768                At Rogers, we chose to maintain what
13     we call a more traditional community television
14     approach, which is to create and produce locally
15     relevant programming.  Essentially, we sought to
16     improve the packaging in which it was delivered over
17     the course of the 20 years.
18  14769                Now we are looking to fill the void
19     where local broadcasters have pulled away.  This isn't
20     a recent phenomenon.  I remember seven years ago, I
21     guess it was, five years ago maybe, when the Ottawa
22     Links came to town and I phoned the general manager at
23     the local CTV affiliate and the general manager at the
24     CBC affiliate and the general manager in Hull to see,
25     are you guys going to cover the Ottawa Links games?  Do


 1     you have a problem if I go in and cover the games? 
 2     There was no money to be made, so they chose not to.
 3  14770                Now it became kind of pivotal
 4     programming for us locally.  It was a huge rating
 5     success.  It was huge in terms of community involvement
 6     and it was a great learning experience for our
 7     volunteers and staff.  They loved it.  We got some
 8     training from RDS to go produce it.  It was a great
 9     project altogether.
10  14771                But that was an indication of where
11     the local broadcaster was pulling away.  Either it
12     wasn't profitable or their network wouldn't allow them
13     the amount of time.  Then we were able to step in.
14  14772                Local elections is another instance. 
15     For 20, 30 years, local broadcasters have not been able
16     to give you the dedicated blow-by-blow account of local
17     elections on a regular basis.  Four years ago, we had
18     this co-venture plan with CJOH locally where we would
19     use their team and they would supplement our equipment
20     and they would use our channel, if you will, to break
21     away from the network and then go to kind of more
22     in-depth coverage for the local ridings here.  That
23     fell through because their network wouldn't allow them
24     to, wouldn't give them the extra minutes required.
25  14773                If I go as recently as January of


 1     this year, no other network in this market could go 24
 2     hours a day with ice storm coverage.  So we were able
 3     to do that.
 4  14774                Each and every one of the local
 5     broadcasters we spoke to would love to do it but they
 6     can't, for whatever constraints they have, be it
 7     financial or scheduling, or whatever their network
 8     agreements permit.
 9  14775                So, yeah, we do want to step in and
10     fill the void.  However, the funding mechanism that's
11     provided to us doesn't allow us to say, well, we're now
12     a local broadcaster.  So we'd have to re-evaluate in
13     terms of another probably proceeding in terms of how
14     that migration would occur.  If it's something the
15     Commission would see feasible, then you would have to
16     determine financially what the migration implications
17     would be to go from being local community television to
18     local over-the-air broadcasters.
19  14776                MR. TORY:  May I add just add one
20     point to that, Madam Chair?
21  14777                I think that we often tend to focus
22     in looking at these kinds of things, too, on some of
23     the larger cities and we're talking here about the
24     question of whether or not we are taking up a role
25     someone else once played and so on.


 1  14778                But, in many communities where we
 2     have television stations or community television
 3     channels, we are fulfilling a role that a conventional
 4     broadcaster never fulfilled because there can't be
 5     conventional over-the-air television stations
 6     everywhere.
 7  14779                So that if you look around in some of
 8     the cities where we have responsibility for cable
 9     service and operate these community television
10     services, they represent the only community television
11     service or community television station that many of
12     those communities have, whether it's a sort of
13     Newmarket, north of Toronto, or other communities we
14     could name around the country.  Owen Sound, Woodstock,
15     these are the places where local news is carried, the
16     city council is carried and so on, and I guess we will
17     always be there regardless of whether there's ever
18     conventional television station in those markets, which
19     in many cases it's doubtful there would be.  We will
20     always be there fulfilling this role, which I think
21     gives these people a television station they can call
22     their own.
23  14780                THE CHAIRPERSON:  My curiosity in the
24     policy context, of course, is that there has been, if
25     anything, a change vis-a-vis the policy in community


 1     programming in requiring cable operators to give a
 2     certain amount of funds for the production of Canadian
 3     programming and, of course, it had been the hope of the
 4     Commission that in most communities the cable operator
 5     would continue to serve the public in the manner Ms.
 6     Watson has outlined.
 7  14781                But, in a broader policy context, I
 8     was interested in hearing you speak of the difficulty
 9     of relying on the community channel as opposed to
10     requiring local programming because it can depend on
11     the city, on the cable company, on the amount, extent
12     of money they want to put into the community channel.
13  14782                So I found Shaw's comment interesting
14     in that regard and yours were not dissimilar, it seemed
15     to me, by calling yourself a station.  So it opens up a
16     number of questions.
17  14783                You speak of local avails as one of
18     your contributions.  I'm curious to see whether you
19     treat those the same way that Shaw has explained to us. 
20     You mention also in your oral presentation the amount
21     of commercial airtime, et cetera, provided.
22  14784                Do you get some revenue back from the
23     services to whom you make avails available?
24  14785                MS. DINSMORE:  I'll ask Colette again
25     to answer that question.


 1  14786                MS WATSON:  At this moment, no, we do
 2     not charge anyone for local avails, but we are
 3     examining the possibility of a rate structure on a cost
 4     recovery basis.
 5  14787                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Similar to the one
 6     Shaw was outlining which was amortizing the cost of the
 7     equipment and the administration.  But, at the moment,
 8     you're not.
 9  14788                MS WATSON:  That's correct.
10  14789                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Charging.  I think
11     they said $8 a spot or something.  I'm not quite sure
12     of the amount.
13  14790                MS WATSON:  $8 an occasion, yeah.
14  14791                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, it was low and
15     was intended to simply recover the costs.
16  14792                In your written presentation, you
17     speak of the lift that you US services, at page 12,
18     that US services have given to the penetration of
19     Canadian services in Canada by packaging them with
20     Canadian services.  As you know, the point has been
21     made by other intervenors that this is no longer true
22     when you look at BBMs.  Do you have any comments about
23     that?  Have you seen those numbers based on BBMs and
24     the argument that this is no longer true now?
25  14793                MS DINSMORE:  Madam Commissioner, we


 1     have heard those arguments and I would ask Michael
 2     Allen to address your question.
 3  14794                MR. ALLEN:  We're greatly assisted in
 4     this matter by the Globe and Mail this morning which
 5     published some of these view numbers for us.  I would
 6     like to just maybe comment on a couple of them,
 7     particularly as they relate to the tier that has just
 8     been launched, Tier 3.
 9                                                        1430
10  14795                I think that when we look at the two
11     previous tiers just by way of background, the tier one,
12     the one that is the most highly penetrated today, was
13     launched on a negative option basis many, many years
14     ago and has enjoyed high penetration ever since.
15  14796                The second tier that was launched in
16     late 1994 or early 1995 began its life as a negative
17     option launch.  You may recall there was some outrage
18     on behalf of consumes and it was switched in mid-course
19     of the launch from a negative option basis to a
20     positive option basis.  As a result, the penetration of
21     that tier did not rise as rapidly and, in fact, we
22     began the early months of 1995 with a penetration in
23     the high 50s, 55 to 58 per cent.
24  14797                Just last month, the penetration of
25     that tier passed 70 per cent.  So we have spent the


 1     last three years trying to increase that tier of
 2     services by 12 percentage points.  That tier is
 3     comprised of five or six services, including Bravo,
 4     Discovery, Showcase, Life and Country Music Television,
 5     all of them excellent services and it has one American
 6     service, Headline News, also a high-quality service.
 7  14798                We were nervous last year, we being
 8     the cable television industry grouped together as
 9     VisionCom, about how to launch a tier in a purely
10     positive option basis, particularly in view of the fact
11     that we spent three years trying to gain 12 percentage
12     points.  We knew, as you have heard from Richard
13     Stursberg on Saturday, that the penetration point at
14     which both the services and the cable companies sort of
15     break even is closer to 70 than it is to 50.  So, we
16     were very keen to put together a package of attractive
17     services, which we were able to do.  I would like to
18     give you some of the numbers.
19  14799                That tier in aggregate has been
20     attracting between about a 12 and 15 per cent share of
21     all viewing in cable households since its launch and
22     that is comprised of a number of services.  There are
23     some very excellent performances being put in, if you
24     can call them that, by services such as Teletoon,
25     Family Channel, History, all of whom are routinely


 1     above a 1 per cent share and if I am omitting anyone
 2     here I do apologize.  There is an American service in
 3     there, WTBS, that is running on the basis of about a
 4     2.5 to 4 share, depending on which week you look at it. 
 5     It was higher just before Christmas last year when it
 6     ran a lot of James Bond movies.
 7  14800                These services tend towards a more
 8     general interest audience, compared to some of the
 9     other services in the tier and if I could use that
10     analogy of the magazine rack which we may have heard
11     before.  You can look at the magazine rack and see
12     magazines such as Macleans, Time, Canadian Living, that
13     are general interest magazines and then you see others,
14     such as Photo Life, Discover, Flying, Skin Diver,
15     whatever your interest might be, that are focused on
16     the much more narrow audience, but they are quite
17     viable and they have a very relevant position as far as
18     their audience base is concerned.
19  14801                I think if we were to look in this
20     tier and look at some of those sorts of services, we
21     might find something like Food, for example, which is
22     drawing about a .3 per cent share.  In a similar vein,
23     Home and Garden Television, a Canadian service also
24     drawing .3.  Outdoor Life, another Canadian service
25     which is oriented more towards activities out of doors,


 1     sports that are more of a recreational manner, .3 per
 2     cent again.  Speed Vision, which breaks people into two
 3     camps, those who love it and those who don't, .2, .3
 4     per cent.  These are very narrowly focused services,
 5     but they are very important to the people who watch
 6     them.
 7  14802                We tried to put together a package --
 8     one service I think that touches many people, but
 9     doesn't generate a huge share at any particular point
10     is The Golf Channel.  Many people, as you may know, are
11     playing golf.  I am reminded by Mr. Buchan to my right
12     here who has just been away doing some of this last
13     week.
14  14803                I think the important here is we
15     would try to put together a package and we have some
16     very strong services in there.  Family Channel was very
17     helpful to the success of that tier in our view.  WTBS,
18     as a general interest American service is very happy,
19     and those other services, whether they are delivering
20     small audiences or large audiences, they are delivering
21     audiences.  We think the entire package as a whole is
22     what is important.  We don't think it would have been
23     quite as successful if we had launched with perhaps
24     only four or six services.  We were nervous about doing
25     that on the basis of the experience with tier two.


 1  14804                We were gratified by the assistance
 2     that was brought to bear by the services with respect
 3     to marketing the service.  As Richard has pointed out
 4     to you on Saturday, there was lots of activity done by
 5     the cable company.  Even today people are still
 6     knocking on doors to get the subscribers to the tier. 
 7     I think it is fair to say that there are not many
 8     consumer products that in the course of less than one
 9     year can claim to have achieved 50 per cent market
10     penetration on a positive option basis.  We think that
11     is due to three things:  Marketing, as I have
12     indicated, very attractive services, both Canadian and
13     U.S., and it is not so much a matter as to whether or
14     not they all bring in big audiences at once.  They
15     bring in different segments of the audience, many of
16     which are very loyal.
17  14805                THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the answer is
18     yes, it's still a lift in that it would be more
19     difficult to have sold a smaller tier that wouldn't
20     have been one-to-one Canadian than it is to sell it as
21     it is and that the world has not changed for tier
22     three, from what it was for tier one.  The importance
23     of the American component in there, in your view, is
24     just as great to reach -- and you could conclude that
25     the penetration would have been less without them?


 1  14806                MR. ALLEN:  Yes, that's right.  We
 2     think it is just as important.
 3  14807                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 4  14808                These are my questions.
 5  14809                Commissioner Cardozo.
 6  14810                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks, Madam
 7     Chair.
 8  14811                I too have a few short questions. 
 9     First, in terms of your local programming, community
10     programming, you mentioned 1,500 hours a year.  I would
11     take it that's across the system.  I am wondering if
12     you have a formula more or less across different cities
13     across the country.  You have mentioned covering city
14     hall.  Is there sort of a roster of things you do, such
15     as city hall, sports groups, sports?
16  14812                MS WATSON:  We operate all our
17     channels with a couple of anchors plugged in. 
18     Depending on the market, it is either weekly or daily
19     and in markets that have 30,000 subscribers or more we
20     have a daily program called "Daytime," which is kind of
21     our local access program, if you will.  It operates
22     Monday to Friday.  It airs three times a day and we
23     just promote what is going on in the community, get
24     people on, do a phone-in component, that sort of thing.
25  14813                Local sports, local amateur sports is


 1     another anchor and then, of course, city hall coverage
 2     is another very important piece of our programming mix.
 3  14814                The other I guess four hours,
 4     depending on the market, depending on the market size,
 5     the four hours of prime time are programmed locally by
 6     the local manager, whether it is phone-ins on what is
 7     happening in the market.  In Vancouver we have the teen
 8     program "Esteeza" and so they find that quite
 9     interesting.  So, the teens come in.  They do their
10     weekly show and they talk about what is important to
11     them and they produce it.
12  14815                In Newmarket we do a weekly show with
13     the hospital.  The hospital administrator comes on and
14     talks about changes by the Restructuring Commission,
15     changes to the Hospital Fundraising Board, promotes
16     different departments in the hospital, has a doctor on
17     every week to talk about what is going on there.  They
18     also do a weekly program with the Hurricanes, which is
19     a Junior B hockey team.
20  14816                In Owen Sound there is a call-in show
21     on what is going on in Georgian Bay.  In Kitchener they
22     have "Daily" plugged in, so they try and get all of the
23     local Kitchener news that goes on and the list goes on.
24  14817                In Ottawa we have "Insight."  IN
25     Toronto we have "Toronto Living."  It depends on what


 1     is important in the community.  You can't kind of
 2     cookie cutter local programming because every community
 3     has its own distinctiveness.
 4  14818                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.
 5  14819                Are you of the view that most people
 6     or most groups, whatever kind of community group or
 7     non-profit group or a for profit group, like -- I was
 8     going to say a Chamber of Commerce, but a Chamber of
 9     Commerce isn't itself a for profit group, but of the
10     groups in society who want access to programming is it
11     your view that most of them are getting on at some
12     point?
13  14820                MS WATSON:  Absolutely.  In the
14     30-year history of community television there have
15     always been groups who haven't made it on, either for
16     resource reasons or for programming content reasons. 
17     It varied over the 30 years.  That doesn't change
18     today.
19  14821                What has changed in our format
20     delivery is we have gone from monthly shows to
21     bi-weekly shows, to daily shows.  So, the amount of
22     community groups we can bring into community television
23     has grown exponentially over the last few years.
24  14822                In the old traditional way of monthly
25     shows we probably get maybe 2,000 groups to come


 1     through.  This year alone, up until the end of August,
 2     we have had at least 15,000 come in on "Plugged In" and
 3     another 2,000 come in on "Daytime."  So, by the end of
 4     the year we will have tripled the output and the
 5     serving of these communities.
 6  14823                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.
 7  14824                Now, on average how much of first-run
 8     programming do you have in a day?
 9  14825                MS WATSON:  It depends on the market. 
10     So, in the large markets like Ottawa, Toronto,
11     Vancouver, it is probably six to eight.  In the medium
12     markets, like Kitchener, London, it is probably five to
13     six and in the smaller markets it is around two. 
14     Collingwood, Georgian Bay would around two to three.
15  14826                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And a lot of
16     this gets played a second time at least?
17  14827                MS WATSON:  Yes.  "Daytime," for
18     example gets played two and three times a day.
19  14828                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  As
20     Commissioner Wylie mentioned, the issue of local
21     programming has been raised with us several times.  Do
22     you think we need to do anything to increase or any
23     incentives that we could be providing or should be
24     providing, so that the viewer gets more local
25     programming?


 1  14829                MS WATSON:  Of course, we are proud
 2     of the record we have in terms of proving local stories
 3     on our community channel.  We are also pushing the
 4     envelope with respect to working with independent
 5     producers.  We actually will provide some funding for
 6     local documentaries, for local projects.
 7  14830                I am reminded of the "Get a Life"
 8     series that we produced with Sound Venture Production
 9     here in Ottawa.  It is a really interesting series for
10     teens on how to get a job, how to go to a job
11     interview, what kind of neat careers are out there and
12     interviewing people who have the careers.  So, there's
13     a 13-part series in French and in English that we
14     financed both in cash and in facilities and in support.
15  14831                Sound Venture has now sold that
16     series to TVO and TFO, so that's quite a successful
17     project for the independent producer, as well as for
18     community television.
19  14832                So, we are proud of the fact that we
20     take risks and we do provide local expression in all of
21     the communities we serve.
22  14833                We have some ideas and our people
23     have a lot of ideas, as well as what the incentives
24     could be.  We are looking forward to working with CCTA
25     in providing a package of those ideas to the


 1     Commission.
 2  14834                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  In time for
 3     the BDU regulations next year?
 4  14835                MS WATSON:  Yes.
 5  14836                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.
 6  14837                So, if you were in a sense filling
 7     the gap of what many people think is a reduction in
 8     local programming by the other stations, the
 9     broadcasters, is that an okay situation or should we be
10     getting them to do more -- getting the broadcasters to
11     do more local programming?
12  14838                MS WATSON:  I guess that would be
13     something the Commission would have to evaluate in
14     terms of how it wants the system to be organized.
15  14839                We are happy to play the role.  We
16     are proud of the role we play and we think we are quite
17     good at it.  So, if there is a bigger role for us to
18     play, we would love to be part of that discussion.
19  14840                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.  I
20     am not getting an answer, but that's okay.
21  14841                MR. TORY:  I won't help with that
22     either, I am afraid, Commissioner.  I will say that
23     there are other instances in which we have also seen I
24     guess both an opportunity and a responsibility to do
25     some other things in the cause of trying to help give


 1     more people an opportunity to be on television locally,
 2     and that includes, for example, where the need
 3     warranted and where it was appropriate, a
 4     multi-cultural service in Vancouver.  Of course, we are
 5     very proud of what we do -- I think we are probably the
 6     largest producer of multilingual television in the
 7     country through our good fortune in owning CFMT.
 8  14842                So that I think we certainly view
 9     this kind of thing as an opportunity, as well as a
10     responsibility for us and have tried to sort of seek
11     out those opportunities where we can find the resources
12     to carry them out because we think it is so important,
13     the local -- having a station that people can call
14     their own, as I said earlier.
15  14843                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You raised
16     CFMT.  Let me ask you, and I noticed you haven't
17     mentioned it in your brief, but that is to a large
18     extent the matter of a future proceeding under a review
19     of what we call the ethnic broadcasting policy.  But I
20     wonder if you could just answer this.  I asked CJNT,
21     your counterpart in a sense in Montreal, about the
22     issue of reflection of diversity in the English and
23     French language broadcasters.  I am not sure whether it
24     was totally serious or partly, or partly flippant, but
25     I asked her whether more reflection of diversity in the


 1     other English and French networks was something she was
 2     interested in seeing or not.  Her response was, "Well,
 3     if they do too much, there won't be enough left for
 4     me."
 5  14844                I am not talking here about
 6     multilingual stuff, but in everything you see, the
 7     "Traders," the news and everything else, do you see it
 8     worthwhile that we address the issue of reflecting
 9     Canadian diversity in the other broadcasters?
10  14845                MR. TORY:  I would have said,
11     Commissioner, that, yes, it is worthwhile.  I haven't
12     spent as much time in this room as others in the
13     regulatory realm, but I think you have addressed that
14     in the past in various ways.  I would say of the
15     broadcasters, the conventional broadcasters, they have
16     been making a very real effort, which I think is a
17     noticeable effort to address the issue, whether it is
18     in entertainment programming or news programming or
19     other kinds of programming.
20  14846                So, I think in addition to what we do
21     and what Ms Griffiths would do in Montreal that is a
22     bit different in terms of being multilingual and having
23     a different sort of mandate, that the conventional
24     broadcasters in English and I can't speak as well to
25     the French, but in English certainly have been making a


 1     real effort to better represent the diversity of the
 2     Canadian community in their day-to-day work.
 3  14847                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.
 4  14848                One of the programs that I noticed
 5     was on last night and I have seen it before is one of
 6     the community programs called "Ten Per Cent QTV."  I
 7     ask you this in light of a submission or a witness that
 8     is going to be on later on this week I believe, EGALE,
 9     which addresses gay and lesbian issues.
10  14849                It seems to me that this is probably
11     one of the only programs that does address gay and
12     lesbian issues, sort of by and about gay and lesbian
13     people.  I am wondering how long the program has been
14     on and what kind of feedback you have had to it.
15  14850                MS WATSON:  It is not the only one. 
16     We have a program called "Outlook" as well.  "Cable 10
17     per cent" has been on in various -- it's called "QTV"
18     now and has been on for probably 12 years.  It has
19     grown from being a Toronto program to a GTA program to
20     now an Ontario program.
21  14851                It is quite an interesting, if you
22     will, third-party association.  They have their own
23     executive producer, their own production crew and they
24     use our Lakeshore facility in Toronto, the one that is
25     on Lakeshore Drive, so they use our equipment, but


 1     everything else they just go out and do on their own
 2     and they hand us a tape every week.
 3  14852                They used to be on monthly.  When we
 4     changed our format to go from monthly to weekly they
 5     had an hour a month.  We asked them to produce a half
 6     hour a week at that time and that was three years ago. 
 7     They were quite nervous about doing that.  They thought
 8     it was a huge amount of work and they couldn't rally
 9     around the volunteers.  But they gave it a shot.  We
10     provided them with some technical support in that
11     transition phase and now they have probably a 30-odd
12     person team working on the weekly program.  They are
13     quite proud of it.  They are quite -- not territorial,
14     but they are quite insistent that it gets the play that
15     it deserves and the exposure that it deserves.
16  14853                This year they really wanted to go
17     network.  So, our dilemma was, well, if we play them in
18     Oshawa or in London is there a London component?  Would
19     they ever come to London to produce a show?  So, after
20     working through that with them, they have field
21     stringers and field reporters and they do provide
22     stories from throughout the region.
23  14854                In British Columbia we have the same
24     similar situation and the show is called "Outlook." 
25     So, it airs weekly and it is a half hour.


 1  14855                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And what has
 2     the feedback been over the years?
 3  14856                MS WATSON:  Of course, most of our
 4     programming, like specialty services, is niche
 5     programming.  So, they have a tremendous audience in
 6     terms of the group that belongs to it and so it has a
 7     wide following and it has good positive feedback.
 8  14857                The production quality has improved
 9     over the last three years.  There was some concern over
10     that, but they have a wide following.
11  14858                Now, we do get complaints about it as
12     well, as you would with any controversial or special
13     interest programming, but nothing out of the ordinary
14     for community television.
15  14859                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With a program
16     of that kind or any other where you are producing it in
17     one area, how much do you send it out to your stations
18     across the country?
19  14860                MS WATSON:  As I indicated, "QTV" is
20     produced for the Ontario stations, so it airs on all
21     the Ontario stations because they have committed to us
22     that they would provide a regional input from Georgian
23     Bay, from southwest Ontario and the Ottawa area.
24  14861                So, we don't send it to B.C. because
25     B.C. has the "Outlook" group and "Outlook" does it and


 1     so vice versa.
 2  14862                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I am just
 3     thinking in general of any kinds of programs.  Are
 4     there any programs that you produce which are sent out
 5     across the country?
 6  14863                MS WATSON:  Yes, there are.  This
 7     year we produced a series called "Made in Canada."  So,
 8     we actually paid an independent producer to go out and
 9     get interesting stories about Canadians.
10  14864                We took to heart what Keith Spicer
11     said about four years ago after working on the Citizens
12     Forum, that Canadians don't know enough about Canada. 
13     So, we decided to fund this series.  It is 13 programs,
14     which takes a little bit of history and kind of gives
15     out information about Canada, either trivia
16     information, but historical information as well. 
17     Programs like that we air on all our channels.
18  14865                We try and share hockey games, if you
19     will.  If there is a team playing in Kitchener that is
20     playing in Ottawa, we try to show it in both markets
21     because it is relevant to both markets.
22                                                        1450
23  14866                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That raises an
24     interesting issue about local programming, because part
25     of local is having the local area portrayed to the


 1     local people, but the other part of local is taking
 2     from one local area to a completely different local
 3     area where people would never see much about each other
 4     otherwise.
 5  14867                MS WATSON:  We do a series in the
 6     summer called "Daytripping," and it's basically, from
 7     the market, where you could drive to in a day for a
 8     daytrip.  And so when it runs in the summer, it's
 9     tremendously popular, because people didn't know that
10     an hour away there was this deer farm, or an hour away
11     the other direction there was Storyland, or something
12     like that.  So programs like that we do share in either
13     a geographic region or a province.  So we would either
14     confine it to southwest Ontario, to GTA, eastern
15     Ontario, BC, or across the province, depending on how
16     relevant it would be.
17  14868                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  Lastly,
18     I just wanted to ask you about the documentary fund. 
19     There's a lot of interest in documentaries, Canadians
20     are, I think, increasingly liking documentaries.  And
21     you have noted some background about the Rogers
22     documentary fund in your brief and talked about it too. 
23     Some people have suggested that there be incentives for
24     documentary airing.  What are your views about that?
25  14869                MS DINSMORE:  I'd like to direct that


 1     question to Robin Mirsky.
 2  14870                MS MIRSKY:  Well, Rogers has
 3     certainly seen a need for documentary production in
 4     Canada.  We started the documentary fund in 1996. 
 5     We've seen documentary producers where there's a need
 6     for additional funding.  There are windows for
 7     documentaries now where CBC, TV Ontario, Newsworld have
 8     created regular timeslots for documentaries.  However,
 9     there's a gap in funding for docs, so we put the fund
10     on the table.  So we certainly have always supported
11     docs, realised how important they are in telling
12     Canadian stories, and I guess we would support
13     incentives to that degree.
14  14871                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay,
15     actually, there's one more quick question I have, and
16     that relates to a comment that was made earlier today
17     by a representative from NAC, the National Action
18     Committee on the Status of Women, with regards to CFMT,
19     and I wonder if you could just give us your feedback.
20  14872                She wasn't impressed with Jerry
21     Springer and I don't want to get into individual shows
22     too much, but overall, given the 60-40 split between
23     English and French, what's your thought about how CFMT
24     contributes to the what we see on our televisions?
25  14873                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I wonder what cable


 1     operators have to say about that?  I'll be curious to
 2     hear.
 3  14874                MR. TORY:  Well, I think that one has
 4     to go back to the model upon which this station, CFMT,
 5     operates, I think uniquely, probably, in North America. 
 6     And in fact, I think there have been times when it's
 7     been cited as being the only example of its kind
 8     perhaps in the world in terms of the number of language
 9     groups and the number of cultural groups that find its
10     way out of the service.  And the fact of the matter
11     is -- and I find this experience the same in the
12     publishing business, for which I am responsible -- that
13     people always ask in Canada, why don't you have a
14     magazine for this or for that?  And the fact is, this
15     is a small country, and it's a difficult country in
16     which, sometimes, to have something for everybody that
17     they might want.
18  14875                And the same is true in many cases of
19     the groups that are serviced by CFMT, which serves not
20     two, not four, not six, but multiple language groups
21     and cultural groups, dozens of them.  And the plain
22     facts are that while those programs are important to
23     those groups, and while we're proud to participate with
24     the independent producers and others who put them on,
25     and while we try to keep that rotation current so that


 1     the groups that are represented on the station are
 2     representative of the community that the station
 3     serves, some of those language programs do not pay for
 4     themselves, are money losers, as it were.
 5  14876                So that I think what we found, and
 6     that doesn't take away from, you know, the obligation
 7     and indeed the privilege that we have in presenting
 8     those programs, but at the end of the day, this is an
 9     over the air television station that is not receiving
10     funding from anybody except its advertisers, and at the
11     end of the day what the Commission in its wisdom and
12     working with the original applicants for the licence
13     came up with is, I think, a very ingenious solution
14     that allows us to carry some English language
15     programming, which assists us.  And indeed, I should
16     say, some of the language programming as well is also 
17     profitable, and it assists us to have those two
18     categories of programming that are profitable, if you
19     want to look at it from an economical point of view, to
20     then be able to afford to put on not just a token
21     effort with regard to the language groups that are
22     smaller, not just some kind of a program to fill the
23     hour, but we believe high quality, first-class Canadian
24     television for those groups in their own language or
25     about their own culture.


 1  14877                So that we believe it's sort of
 2     similar to what has been done in some cases -- back to
 3     the Chair's question earlier about packaging things
 4     together -- we think that in this case it's not a lift
 5     in viewership, but it is, perhaps, a lift to the
 6     overall economics of the enterprise, to have the
 7     English language programs, whichever programs they may
 8     be -- and I'm sure there are programs on every station
 9     that are controversial -- that can help to generate the
10     profits that will, in turn, allow us to carry other
11     things on the station that might not find their way
12     onto conventional television otherwise.
13  14878                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Good, thanks,
14     that's the explanation I gave for the 60-40 split -- in
15     less words, though.
16  14879                MR. TORY:  I'm a lawyer, so they used
17     to pay me by the word, and so I can't get it out of my
18     system.
19  14880                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Considering we have
20     lawyers here, I have another question I wanted to ask
21     you.  You stress both in your written presentation, and
22     more particularly in the oral presentation today, the
23     issue of what contribution could be exacted from
24     American services, either via the eligible list, or via
25     requirement that Canadian rights be purchased for


 1     programming.  I'm sure you're aware of the propositions
 2     that have been made, some of which would involve the
 3     cable system for their deployment or use.  You mention
 4     mostly the cost of doing business, and that would
 5     eventually be passed on to subscribers if such were the
 6     case, and I understand your arguments about duplication
 7     and double counting of contribution, et cetera.  But do
 8     you see some more legal problems, as well, of how this
 9     could be implemented?  Have you thought about that?
10  14881                MS DINSMORE:  We've actually taken a
11     fairly good look at this, and, you know, I think it's
12     fair to say that without, you know, putting trade
13     issues on the table, that there would certainly be some
14     issues that would have to be examined prior to either
15     of these proposals coming to the fore.  But I think I'd
16     like to call on Bob Buchan to actually answer the
17     question.
18  14882                MR. BUCHAN:  Well, Commissioner
19     Wylie, I think your first question, or one of the
20     questions related to US North American rights issue, a
21     separate rights market in Canada and a separate rights
22     market in the United States.  And certainly, from
23     Rogers' position, or Roger's perspective, we think it's
24     a commendable objective.  It's been an objective of
25     Canadian government policy in the film area for as long


 1     as I've been around this business, which is quite a
 2     long time, and I think we understand where the CFTPA
 3     and others are coming from with regard to recognising a
 4     distinct market in Canada for Canadian independent
 5     programming producers and Canadian rights.
 6  14883                The problem that we would foresee
 7     from a legal side would be the implementation and the
 8     monitoring and the enforcement of a policy of this
 9     kind.
10                                                        1501
11  14884                One of the examples, when we were
12     waiting to get on, that we had a discussion about,
13     well, first would be that the Commission would have to
14     assert jurisdiction, in a sense, over the
15     negotiations -- over the arrangements between the
16     independent program producers and the services -- the
17     US cable services that might be -- if they were seeking
18     to acquire North American rights.
19  14885                And if there were an unequivocal
20     obligation to -- on the part of the US cable service
21     that was given either directly to the Commission or
22     through its sponsor that got it on the list, it would
23     be appropriate for the Commission, in a jurisdictional
24     sense, to make that request, presumably.
25  14886                But then, for the Commission to


 1     monitor and enforce on that obligation might give rise
 2     to problems.  So one of the issues that we would
 3     foresee is if there were a complaint, presumably the
 4     Commission would then want to investigate and look into
 5     the complaint and find out whether it was justified. 
 6     That would mean, presumably, bringing the US service --
 7     which isn't directly under its jurisdiction -- before
 8     the Commission or through representatives.
 9  14887                And even if that were done, and even
10     if there were a violation found or there was a
11     determination made that the North American rights, the
12     separate rights hadn't been recognised, the question
13     would be, what would be the sanction?  Would you then
14     just automatically remove that service from the list? 
15     And if so, there's a sort of a cost benefit social
16     issue as well, because the viewers who are enjoying
17     that service are going to be, in part, paying the
18     price.
19  14888                But also, just in monetary terms, I
20     suppose, with the example that we thought about, it was
21     if there was a licence fee, a program licence fee of,
22     say, $100,000; and it was negotiated freely between the
23     Canadian independent producer and the US service; and
24     there was a complaint; and there was an investigation
25     or mediation -- we use the mediation-type of method


 1     that's used with regard to access to complaints; and
 2     then there was a renegotiation, and the result came out
 3     and the licence fee was $80,000 expressed in terms of
 4     the US rights, and $20,000 for the Canadian rights. 
 5     The consideration paid for the licence fee would still
 6     end up being $100,000, and there would be a recognition
 7     of separate rights for Canada, but maybe the producer
 8     wouldn't end up any further ahead.
 9  14889                I'm not saying that that's
10     necessarily the result, or that that's the way that it
11     would go.  But it would mean that the Commission would
12     have to get itself into exercising some jurisdiction
13     over entities that currently aren't seen to be directly
14     under its jurisdiction, and over contractual
15     negotiations between independent program producers and
16     US services.
17  14890                But that's a matter for the
18     Commission to decide.  These were just some of the
19     considerations that we turned our minds to.
20  14891                I think, with regard to the other
21     issue, and that is the proposal of tithing US cable
22     services, I think it's been suggested by the SPTA that
23     it might be a 30 percent -- or maybe it was the CAB
24     specialty board -- that there might be a 30 percent
25     tithe imposed upon the US cable services that are


 1     distributed in Canada.  Then again, the Commission --
 2     these are discretionary services, and the Commission 
 3     has never sought to involve itself in the monitoring or
 4     the negotiation of the rates that are charged, the
 5     affiliation fees that are charged.  And to get to the
 6     30 percent figure, you'd have to know the 30 percent of
 7     what.  And that would mean you would have to have
 8     access to all of those contracts, and whether that
 9     would lead into the area of trade, I have no idea.
10  14892                We have no idea what the reaction of
11     the US authorities would be, but I think there would be
12     some reaction probably on the part of some US cable
13     services, the idea of the CRTC exercising jurisdiction
14     over affiliation agreements that it negotiates with
15     cable distributors in Canada, although clearly the
16     Commission has got plenary and full jurisdiction over
17     its distributors.  Is that helpful?
18  14893                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, that's what I
19     was going to get back to, because it's the cable
20     operator appearing before us.
21  14894                My understanding of some of the
22     proposals was that the Commission wouldn't have to
23     exercise direct jurisdiction over any service it
24     doesn't have jurisdiction over.
25  14895                We all, of course, are aware of the


 1     possibility of trade issues, but my understanding was
 2     that some of the suggestions went as far as saying
 3     cable operators shall not transport into Canada a
 4     service that hasn't purchased Canadian rights for its
 5     programming, so that the entire jurisdictional clout
 6     would be indirectly via the cable operator, either to
 7     levy some contribution or to even not allow services
 8     into Canada without proof of Canadian rights having
 9     been purchased, which would get around, at least on the
10     face of it, the direct exercise of direct jurisdiction
11     over the services.  But I understand the trade issues
12     that are raised by these suggestions, but I'm intrigued
13     by your comments that the Commission would have to
14     exercise direct jurisdiction over services it doesn't
15     have jurisdiction over.  We would never attempt such a
16     thing.
17  14896                MR. ALLEN:  As a practical matter,
18     I've had the opportunity to negotiate an affiliation
19     agreement or two with an American service, and I think
20     that in the circumstances we've just been considering,
21     what we're really discussing as a practical matter is a
22     cost that would be ultimately in the hands of the cable
23     company, and then to the extent that it's a cost of
24     doing business that must be borne by the revenues of
25     the company -- ultimately the hands of subscribers --


 1     for the simple reason that the US service in the
 2     circumstances we're considering would seek to recover
 3     its cost of doing business in Canada.  And if its cost
 4     of doing business in Canada suddenly were to increase
 5     by 30 percent, it would seek a commensurate increase in
 6     the fee payable to it.  So what we're really looking at
 7     is whether the mechanism were to directly approach the
 8     US service or, in the absence of directly dealing with
 9     the US service, placing the responsibility upon the
10     cable affiliate to ensure that the payments are made or
11     the rights are purchased.
12  14897                What we're really describing in a
13     practical sense, here, is an obligation on the cable
14     affiliate to either pay the money or see that the
15     rights are maintained.  And what we're going to end up
16     with in the end, then, is simply an incremental cost in
17     Canada that will end up, sooner or later, in the
18     general revenues.
19  14898                THE CHAIRPERSON:  You will recall I
20     acknowledged that at the beginning.  I was just
21     questioning what the legal implications may be at this
22     stage.
23  14899                I understand the idea of the cost of
24     doing business, and we can levy whatever we wish,
25     presumably, indirectly, via the cable operator and then


 1     it becomes is it too high a cost of doing business that
 2     has to be passed on, and makes programming less
 3     attractive.  But I had zeroed in on the legal
 4     implications, and I quite understand the other aspect
 5     of it.  But we thank you very much --
 6  14900                MR. BUCHAN:  Commissioner Wylie,
 7     could I just --
 8  14901                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.
 9  14902                MR. BUCHAN:  There's just one other
10     issue related to US services that's jurisdictional, and
11     that relates to local avails.  And there's been a
12     proposal on the table that perhaps local avails --
13     because two minutes of the hour are made available by
14     most US cable services, and since US cable services
15     that are carried in Canada do not sell advertising in
16     Canada, that these avails, if they aren't selling
17     advertising in Canada on the other ten minutes, it's
18     something of a free good, and perhaps there should be a
19     commitment, an obligation by way of conditional
20     licence, presumably, on the cable companies to take all
21     ten or 12 minutes.
22  14903                And I read this proposal, and I've
23     gone through a number of the submissions, and I haven't
24     seen anyone refer to subsection 92 of the Broadcasting
25     Act, which reflects section 50 of the Canada/United


 1     States Free Trade Agreement, and I think you will
 2     remember going back to 1978 when --
 3  14904                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was not even
 4     born.
 5  14905                MR. BUCHAN:  -- Bill C58 was enacted,
 6     and when we negotiated with the Americans for the end
 7     of commercial deletion and substitution, but the
 8     Americans recognised the simultaneous substitution as
 9     legitimate exercise of policy by the Commission.  And
10     other than the Calgary Edmonton exception that was
11     grandfathered and was grandfathered again in the Free
12     Trade Agreement, there hasn't been any extension of
13     commercial deletion.
14  14906                And that was the third issue in the
15     Canada-US one that I just wanted to make a comment on,
16     thank you.
17  14907                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I hope if your
18     client ever comes before us for a rate increase, you
19     don't make such a mistake as to think that I was doing
20     anything other than going to school in those years.
21  14908                MR. TORY:  Is it appropriate for us
22     to disassociate ourselves with the comments of counsel
23     in that regard?
24  14909                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why not?
25                                                        1511


 1     Why not?  I think it's time I pass you to counsel
 2     before we get into impeachment here.
 3  14910                MR. BLAIS:  And Commissioner Wylie
 4     stole most of my questions.  So I am concerned Mr. Tory
 5     may be thinking that I should be paid by the word.  So
 6     I've come up with another question.
 7  14911                An increase, on page six of your oral
 8     presentation you mention an increase of approximately
 9     $2.2 million a year distribution costs and additional
10     copyright royalties.  I appreciate you might not have
11     the numbers at hand, but would it be possible for you
12     to give us the breakdown of how you got to $2.2
13     million?
14  14912                MS DINSMORE:  That wouldn't be a
15     problem.  It's a combination of our transmission costs
16     and our copyright costs.
17  14913                MR. BLAIS:  Could you detail that a
18     bit more in writing?
19  14914                MS DINSMORE:  Sure.  Sure.
20  14915                MR. BLAIS:  Showing the methodology
21     and the assumptions you've gotten.  If you could do
22     that by the 15th of October.
23  14916                MS DINSMORE:  No problem.
24  14917                MR. BLAIS:  We'd appreciate that. 
25     Thank you.  Those are my questions.


 1  14918                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much
 2     and have a good trip back to Toronto.  Except for Ms.
 3     Watson.  Hopefully, she'll stay here and continue doing
 4     a good job on the Community Channel.
 5  14919                Before you leave, Mr. Tory, bring our
 6     best wishes to Mr. Lynn.
 7  14920                MR. TORY:  We will do that.  Thank
 8     you.  He's coming along very well and I'm sure he
 9     wishes he could be here.  But we will do that, and
10     thank you very much.
11  14921                MS WATSON:  I'm sure he wishes he
12     could be watching it in Toronto but I understand it's
13     not being carried there.
14  14922                THE CHAIRPERSON:  For Phil, we can
15     make special arrangements, though.
16  14923                MS. SANTERRE:  Canadian Satellite
17     Communications Inc./Les Communications par satellite
18     canadien inc.
20  14924                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good Afternoon,
21     Gentlemen.  Proceed when you are ready.
22  14925                MR. McEWAN:  Madam Chair,
23     Commissioners, Good Afternoon.
24  14926                My name is Duncan McEwan and I am the
25     president and chief executive officer of Canadian


 1     Satellite Communications Incorporated, or Cancom, as
 2     it's commonly known.  On my left is Claude Lewis, our
 3     executive vice-president and chief operating officer. 
 4     On my right is Larry Corke, our senior vice-president,
 5     broadcasting.  To his right is Stephen Whitehead of
 6     Johnson & Buchan, our regulatory counsel.
 7  14927                This is the first time that Cancom
 8     will have appeared before many of you.  This is also
 9     the first time that I have appeared before the
10     Commission in my capacity as president and chief
11     executive officer of the company.  We are very pleased
12     to have the opportunity to meet with you and to share
13     our views on a few issues raised in this very important
14     proceeding.
15  14928                My own background is in the
16     production sector but our appearance here is actually
17     focused on a different but also very vital part of the
18     broadcasting landscape, the distribution sector.  The
19     distribution sector of the Canadian Broadcasting system
20     is the critically important means by which Canadian
21     programming is made available to all Canadians.
22  14929                As you know, Cancom is licensed by
23     the Commission as a satellite relay distribution
24     undertaking, or SRDU.  We distribute via Canadian
25     satellite a broad range of conventional broadcasting


 1     services to cable systems and other broadcasting
 2     distribution undertakings, allowing BDUs to include
 3     these signals in their channel line-ups.  The signals
 4     we distribute include Canadian English, French and
 5     multilingual services and US 4+1 services from four
 6     regional corridors.  Since Cancom was first licensed in
 7     1981, our fundamental purpose and objective has always
 8     been the extension of Canadian services to remote and
 9     under served areas.
10  14930                The production of Canadian
11     programming does not in any way enrich the fabric of
12     our nation if there is no opportunity for Canadians to
13     view that programming.  Cancom's distribution of
14     Canadian television signals by satellite has been the
15     only means by which Canadians living in remote areas
16     have been able to view the same broad range of Canadian
17     programming as their urban counterparts.
18  14931                Making programming available for
19     viewing is the primary contribution which distributors
20     such as Cancom can make to the production of Canadian
21     programming.  A secondary contribution is the provision
22     of financial support to the production sector.  In this
23     regard, the Commission now requires Cancom and other
24     SRDUs to contribute 5 per cent of their regulated
25     revenues to the creation and presentation of Canadian


 1     programming.  This requirement codifies the critical
 2     support which Cancom has provided throughout its
 3     history to aboriginal broadcasters and to the extension
 4     of francophone services.
 5  14932                If distribution undertakings licensed
 6     by the Commission are to continue making these
 7     contributions on a long-term sustainable basis, all
 8     competitors should be subject to comparable regulatory
 9     requirements.  We have thus argued in another
10     proceeding that terrestrial relay distribution
11     undertakings, TRDUs; that is, undertakings which
12     perform the same function as satellite-based SRDUs, but
13     using land-lines instead of satellites to transmit
14     distant signals, should be subject to conditions and
15     expectations which are similar to those which apply to
16     us, a licensed SRDU.
17  14933                We have also argued in the proceeding
18     commenced by Public Notice, 1998-60, that licensed
19     Canadian SRDUs should not be subject to competition
20     from unlicensed US satellite servers.
21  14934                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. McEwan, we will
22     try to keep other proceedings that are not completed
23     out of the discussion, if possible, because it wouldn't
24     be appropriate to use this forum for discussions of
25     issues that are still outstanding.


 1  14935                MR. McEWAN:  We understand, Madam
 2     Chair.  In fact, we were conscious of that trying to
 3     write this.
 4  14936                THE CHAIRPERSON:  And, hopefully, in
 5     any answers you may give, try to be conscious of the
 6     difference.
 7  14937                MR. McEWAN:  If I may, there is some
 8     overlap and we would be happy to be --
 9  14938                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand that. 
10     That's always a difficulty.  But the overlap of one may
11     be positive, an overlap to another may be negative.
12  14939                MR. McEWAN:  We will happily avoid
13     those issues.
14  14940                All participants in the Canadian
15     Broadcasting system should have an obligation to
16     contribute to the development, exhibition, and
17     promotion of Canadian programs.  This includes those
18     participants who are not licensed, but who instead
19     operate pursuant to an exemption order.  The
20     contribution need not be financial in nature.  It can
21     consist solely of the offering of Canadian choices. 
22     But the contribution must, in our view, be equivalent
23     in nature and scope between licensed and exempt or
24     unlicensed participants who are in direct competition
25     with one another.


 1  14941                MR. CORKE:  One of the issues you are
 2     addressing in this proceeding concerns the conditions
 3     under which foreign services should be authorized for
 4     distribution in Canada.  Some have suggested that US
 5     specialty services and US superstations should be
 6     required to make financial contributions to support
 7     Canadian programming.  Many have noted that such a
 8     requirements would be impractical to implement,
 9     difficult to enforce, and arguably an additional tax on
10     BDUs which will simply increase prices to the consumer. 
11     We agree.
12  14942                US services provide a non-financial
13     contribution as linkage partners with Canadian pay and
14     specialty services.  The US services are regarded as
15     tier drivers which contribute to the penetration of
16     Canadian services, and thus support their financial
17     viability.
18  14943                This leads to a paradox in the
19     linkage rules that we would like to address.  It seems
20     odd, given that Canadian content should be encouraged
21     wherever possible, that US superstations are eligible
22     for carriage on pay tiers while Canadian distant
23     signals are not.  Canadian distant signals contain a
24     diverse range of local, regional and national Canadian
25     programming.  Our market research demonstrates


 1     conclusively that Canadians value and watch Canadian
 2     conventional television stations.
 3  14944                We continue to believe that Canadian
 4     distant signals should be eligible for carriage and
 5     linkage in the full discretionary pay tiers of Class 1
 6     systems.  This would not only expand the reach of
 7     Canadian programming, but would be very likely to
 8     increase the penetration of the tiers beyond that
 9     achieved with US linkage partners only.
10  14945                MR. LEWIS:  The Commission stated in
11     Public Notice CRTC 1998-44 that it wished to review
12     with parties in this proceeding, and we quote:
13                            "The most effective mechanisms
14                            to ensure that Canadians
15                            continue to have access to
16                            programming reflective of their
17                            local, regional and national
18                            concerns in the official
19                            language of their choice."
20  14946                As a licensed SRDU, Cancom provides
21     national distribution of Canadian conventional
22     television stations in both French and English.  These
23     stations produce or acquire and exhibit local,
24     regional, and national programming. Cancom extends the
25     reach of these signals to Canadians who would not


 1     otherwise have access to this Canadian programming.  As
 2     Larry notes, Canadians value and watch the Canadian
 3     conventional television stations which we make
 4     available by satellite.  Because of this, distribution
 5     of Canadian general interest signals is the best means
 6     of achieving preponderance of Canadian viewing.
 7  14947                We appreciate from the debate at this
 8     hearing that challenges remain as to how best to
 9     encourage the production and exhibition of Canadian
10     programming.  As far as distribution is concerned,
11     however, the framework is already in place.  The
12     Commission's policy framework for competition among
13     licensed SRDUs will provide all the benefits of
14     competition without sacrificing any of the public
15     policy objectives for which Cancom was originally
16     licensed in 1981, and which continue to be applicable
17     today.
18  14948                MR. McEWAN:  To conclude, Madam
19     Chair, I will refer to the four key themes which you
20     addressed in your opening remarks.
21  14949                How can the Commission assure that
22     quality Canadian programming is produced and broadcast
23     to the largest number of Canadians?
24  14950                Now we have no comments on which of
25     the alternative frameworks presented in this proceeding


 1     best encourages the production of Canadian programming. 
 2     Once the programming has been produced, however, it
 3     should be telecast and distributed to Canadians.  We
 4     believe you should adopt policies which require or
 5     assist in the distribution of such programming on the
 6     widest possible basis.  Distributors in competition
 7     with one another should be subject to comparable
 8     regulatory obligations in this regard.
 9                                                        1535
10  14951                Point No. 2, how can the Commission
11     help ensure that all participants in the Canadian
12     broadcasting system have the ability to adapt to a
13     changing environment and that the system has access to
14     financial resources to benefit Canadian programming? 
15     Again, we believe that competition within a regulatory
16     framework is the best means of achieving this goal.
17  14952                Fair and sustainable competition
18     occurs when all players are subject to the same rules.
19  14953                Competition for its own sake would
20     never have resulted in the quality, quantity and broad
21     distribution of Canadian programming which Canada has
22     achieved to date; and that achievement, by the way, is
23     one of which you and we should be proud.
24  14954                Your third point:  How can the
25     regulatory framework ensure that the unique


 1     characteristics of the French-language market are
 2     maintained and recognized?  Under the Commission's
 3     framework for competition among the licensed SRDUs,
 4     SRDUs will continue to play an important role in the
 5     national distribution of French-language television. 
 6     That framework requires the satellite distribution of
 7     all French-language signals with national rights.
 8  14955                In addition, French-language
 9     producers and exhibitors are one group of recipients of
10     the required financial contribution of licensed SRDUs
11     to the creation and presentation of Canadian
12     programming.
13  14956                And your last point:  How can a
14     regulatory framework recognize the particular
15     requirements of the different elements of the system
16     and balance the desire for flexibility with the need to
17     ensure equity and the protection of the public
18     interest?  Here again we believe that a regulatory
19     framework which allows competitive forces to operate
20     within public policy constraints which apply equally to
21     all participants is the best means of achieving this
22     goal.
23  14957                This concludes our presentation,
24     Madam Chair and Commissioners, and my colleagues and I
25     will be very pleased to respond to any questions that


 1     you may have.
 2  14958                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 3     Mr. McEwan and your colleagues.
 4  14959                Commissioner Wilson.
 5  14960                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Good afternoon,
 6     gentlemen.
 7  14961                Since I am somewhat constrained by
 8     what I can discuss with you, I hope you won't be
 9     insulted if I have only a few questions for you.  You
10     will be happy to be able to get home at a reasonable
11     hour.
12  14962                You have limited your comments in
13     this proceeding to just three areas, the responsibility
14     for expenditures on Canadian programming, ensuring a
15     viable private broadcasting sector and the issue of
16     diversity.  What I would like to do is just question
17     you a little bit about each one of those areas,
18     avoiding the forbidden topics.
19  14963                Responsibility for expenditures on
20     Canadian programming.  In paragraph 4 of your
21     submission you state in the first sentence that:
22                            "... it is important to build
23                            upon the function performed by
24                            distribution undertakings in
25                            making Canadian programming


 1                            available to all Canadians."
 2  14964                Then, in the final sentence of that
 3     paragraph you state that while the financial
 4     contribution made by distributors to the production of
 5     Canadian programming is important, it is secondary to
 6     the actual delivery.
 7  14965                Later, in paragraph 9, you say that
 8     the contribution of distribution undertakings should
 9     extend beyond a financial contribution and that the
10     contribution made by distributors should not be
11     measured only in financial terms.
12  14966                Now, as I am sure you are aware, we
13     haven't had very many parties sort of stepping up to
14     the plate and saying, "please let me give more."  So, I
15     am just wondering what do you mean by that when you
16     say -- I mean, are you saying that the cost of delivery
17     of the services that you make available across the
18     country should be factored into our evaluation of your
19     contribution or --
20  14967                MR. McEWAN:  No.  I think we are
21     talking about something different when we are talking
22     about the function of SRDUs.  We have an obligation to
23     put forward as a distributor 5 per cent of our revenue,
24     our regulated revenue, to the production of Canadian
25     programming and that's the contribution that we make in


 1     support of Canadian programming.  But because it is 5
 2     per cent and because this is not a large industry, our
 3     own SRDU industry, that by itself is not as important
 4     as the other function we perform, which is the
 5     redistribution of Canadian signals across the country
 6     on an equal basis.
 7  14968                So we see our role very much as the
 8     provision of Canadian general interest program services
 9     to places that otherwise would not have access to those
10     signals, and that's a very important role for us to
11     play because it enables a larger audience to see
12     Canadian programs.
13  14969                That's what that refers to.
14  14970                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  So you are not
15     really offering to do any more than you are already
16     doing?
17  14971                MR. McEWAN:  No.
18  14972                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Okay.
19  14973                Then, obviously, I misread that, but
20     it just struck me the way that it was worded "should
21     extend beyond a financial contribution," I thought
22     maybe they are making us an offer here.
23  14974                I do want to clarify something.  On
24     page 3 of your oral submission today, on this same
25     topic you say:


 1                            "A secondary contribution is the
 2                            provision of financial support
 3                            to the production sector.  In
 4                            this regard, the Commission now
 5                            requires Cancom and other
 6                            licensed SRDUs to contribute 5
 7                            per cent...  This requirement
 8                            codifies the critical support
 9                            which Cancom has provided
10                            throughout its history to
11                            aboriginal broadcasters and to
12                            the extension of francophone
13                            services."
14  14975                You mentioned later on that a portion
15     of your 5 per cent goes to the production of
16     French-language programming, but I wonder if you could
17     just explain to me about your history with aboriginal
18     broadcasters and is there a portion of your 5 per cent
19     that is allocated specifically for them?
20  14976                MR. McEWAN:  Each year -- well,
21     historically Cancom has offered extensive support to
22     TVNC, and we intend to continue that.
23  14977                Under the new rules we have to file
24     with the Commission a summary statement of how we
25     expect that 5 per cent to be distributed each year and


 1     we just did that.  In this coming year we will be
 2     donating more than $400,000 to TVNC, and that plus our
 3     other areas of contribution add up to the 5 per cent. 
 4     This is part of the arrangement that we have with our
 5     historic partners in these enterprises, which are LARK,
 6     the extension of francophone radio services, Canal
 7     Savoir, uplink services for native broadcasters and
 8     fundamental cash support for TVNC.
 9  14978                So that is something that has been
10     there from the beginning.  We can go into that in more
11     depth, but it is something that we intend to continue.
12  14979                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  That is great. 
13     I am still pretty new here, so I am not familiar with
14     all of the details of all of the commitments that have
15     been made by the different distribution undertakings,
16     but that is helpful to me.
17  14980                The second area in which you make
18     comments has to do with ensuring a viable private
19     broadcasting sector.  You state that the Commission's
20     policies with respect to your ability to offer distant
21     Canadian signals actually favours U.S. programming over
22     Canadian programming in that U.S. superstations are
23     available for linkage with Canadian pay television
24     services, while Canadian distant signals are not.
25  14981                I wonder if you could just expand on


 1     your views on this issue?
 2  14982                MR. McEWAN:  I will pass to Larry
 3     Corke in a moment, but just if I may step off with
 4     that, we believe that there is an opportunity here to
 5     support the further penetration of the pay tier by
 6     opening linkage up to Canadian distant signals for
 7     larger distributors and that this will be to the
 8     benefit of everyone in the industry without having a
 9     dramatic impact because we are talking about the pay
10     tiers and not a lower, more broadly penetrated tier.
11  14983                Larry Corke.
12  14984                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Maybe I can
13     just clarify before Mr. Corke starts.  What you are
14     suggesting is on your pay tier you would add on a
15     station from Halifax, one from Edmonton, one from
16     Vancouver and have a whole array of Canadian channels
17     available?
18  14985                MR. McEWAN:  Exactly.  These signals
19     are already up there, but right now large cable
20     operators are not permitted to take those without
21     specific application.
22  14986                We think this is a way to announce
23     the coverage of the tier, the penetration of the tier,
24     particularly as we move into a more digital
25     environment, without creating some dramatic change to


 1     the broadcasting infrastructure.
 2  14987                Larry, do you want to pick up on
 3     this?
 4  14988                MR. CORKE:  I don't think I can add
 5     too much.  It is just that as a good example, I can
 6     sell WGN, KTLA, WPIX, WSPK to Sudbury, but I am not
 7     allowed to sell them CityTV or CFMT.  They are all
 8     distant signals.  They are all independent stations,
 9     and Sudbury dearly would like to have CityTV on a pay
10     tier.  They would like to have it on any tier, but it
11     would take it on a pay tier, but I am prohibited from
12     selling them.  I find that frustrating at times, and
13     that's true all across Canada.
14  14989                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Do you have a
15     lot of demand for this?
16  14990                MR. CORKE:  Yes.  Yes.  I mean if I
17     were allowed to -- you know, ITV on the extended basic
18     tier in St. John's, Newfoundland has a phenomenal
19     following.  ITV and CHCU used to be carried in Sudbury,
20     in the Soo, and they were ordered to take them off with
21     some great distress, but we have a tremendous
22     following.  Canadians want to watch more Canadian
23     channels and general interest channels are very strong
24     channels.
25  14991                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  All right.


 1  14992                The final area you discuss in your
 2     written submission is the issue of diversity.  Actually
 3     I think we may have just covered that because I think
 4     you tie the whole issue of diversity to the same issue
 5     of being able to provide distant Canadian signals and
 6     that that would contribute to greater diversity.
 7  14993                MR. McEWAN:  That's correct.  All the
 8     questions you have asked have in fact been linked.  We
 9     see an opportunity in our role in distributing large
10     numbers of Canadian signals, as well as American
11     signals, as one that provides an opportunity for more
12     Canadian programs to be seen, particularly since these
13     are conventional television stations with very popular
14     broad levels of programming.  It is part of our
15     function and we think there is a small restriction in
16     here that could be eased and will be of benefit to the
17     system overall.
18  14994                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  In 1997 the
19     Commission actually denied a request by Cancom to do
20     this.  I am just wondering what in your view has
21     changed on the landscape since then that might persuade
22     the Commission to revisit this issue.
23  14995                MR. McEWAN:  I think among other
24     things we are heading into an era in which the
25     penetration of digital set-top boxes is going to be


 1     important.  So, anything that drives pay tiers will be
 2     helpful for accelerating the deployment of those boxes
 3     and this is perhaps a small incremental step that could
 4     be taken.  But again it is small.  This is a modest
 5     issue because we are talking about pay tiers.  We are
 6     not talking about broad tiers.
 7  14996                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Do you think
 8     all BDUs should be able to do this?
 9  14997                MR. McEWAN:  I don't see why not.
10  14998                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Or is it just
11     like this would be good for us, but not for the other
12     guys?
13  14999                MR. McEWAN:  No.
14  15000                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  A lot of people
15     have been saying that, this would be really good for
16     us.
17  15001                MR. CORKE:  No, I think anybody
18     should.  I mean as long as the rules are tied to
19     linkage and carriage which promotes it, no, everyone
20     should be able to.  The signals are there.  Technology
21     makes them available to everyone.
22  15002                MR. McEWAN:  Yes.
23  15003                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Those are my
24     questions, gentlemen.  Thank you very much.
25  15004                THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are speaking


 1     here of making them available to BDUs.
 2  15005                MR. McEWAN:  That's correct.
 3  15006                THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Commission
 4     allowing BDUs to pick them up for pairing.
 5  15007                Do you see that as creating further
 6     copyright problems for local broadcasters to bring
 7     Canadian signals?  Would it depend on the signal?  You
 8     mentioned City.
 9  15008                MR. CORKE:  I don't doubt there are
10     probably some program rights issues that certain
11     programmers would have with any foreign signals,
12     Canadian or other, coming into its market or any
13     distant signal.  My guess is though that the
14     programming issues centre probably on the American
15     product they are bringing in rather than the Canadian
16     product they are giving more distribution to.
17  15009                THE CHAIRPERSON:  I suppose the
18     argument would be that certainly at the level at which
19     the premium tier is the damage is not -- the damage
20     would grow, presumably, or the allegation of damage via
21     program rights issues would increase as the premium
22     tier subscribers increase?
23  15010                MR. CORKE:  I think that would be
24     their argument, but one of the reasons why I would like
25     to see this revisited is pay has dropped in penetration


 1     over the last couple of years.  If I can remember -- 
 2     let's see, my oldest son is 17 -- we have been working
 3     trying to sell pay TV for 17 years and it has gone up
 4     to 18 per cent and maybe 20 per cent nationally and
 5     dropped back down to 15 and going to 12 quick.
 6  15011                THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, unlike me, you
 7     were around then.
 8  15012                MR. CORKE:  Yes.
 9  15013                THE CHAIRPERSON:  One of the reasons
10     that pay has dropped, we understand, is channel
11     capacity constraints, and of course every signal you
12     carry takes up a channel.  But it would be on the
13     digital tier I suppose, once it is digitized, which is
14     not necessarily tomorrow from what we have heard.
15  15014                MR. McEWAN:  Our point is this is a
16     modest proposal and would be at the BDUs discretion
17     entirely.
18  15015                THE CHAIRPERSON:  On page 4 of your
19     oral presentation you raise the issue of exempt
20     programming.  I am not quite sure what it is you
21     propose, an obligation to contribute, not necessarily
22     monetary, but would consist you say of an offering of
23     Canadian choices.  Give me a concrete example of how
24     one would exact some contribution from an exempted
25     service?


 1  15016                I think we have exacted a requirement
 2     from those who distribute a games channel, correct, but
 3     it is financial, if I recall.  We have asked that the
 4     cable operator levy and put in a certain percentage of
 5     revenues back into Canadian programming.
 6  15017                I am sure that staff will raise their
 7     eyebrows if I am wrong.  I think it was in relation to
 8     the Games Channel, to SEGA, and it was a monetary one. 
 9     So give me an example of what you mean by something
10     other than financial in nature in an exempted channel
11     situation.
12  15018                MR. McEWAN:  Really, this is one of
13     those areas.  Our reference here was to the TRDU issue
14     and we are talking about exempt, who are operating
15     under exemption or --
16  15019                THE CHAIRPERSON:  So we are not
17     talking of exempted services like the SEGA channel?
18  15020                MR. McEWAN:  No.
19  15021                THE CHAIRPERSON:  You know that there
20     have been many suggestions made as to how to extract
21     contributions from American or exempted services, or
22     foreign or exempted services, but this was more in that
23     context.
24  15022                MR. WHITEHEAD:  Madam Vice-Chair, I
25     might be able to help you without talking about TRDUs,


 1     but an example of a non-financial contribution say in
 2     the context of the Games Channel might be, okay you can
 3     be carried, provided that a certain amount of your
 4     shelf space is Canadian games.  That's what we would
 5     call a non-financial contribution.
 6  15023                THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you put in a few
 7     hockey games in there and you are okay.
 8  15024                Thank you very much, gentlemen.
 9  15025                Counsel.
10  15026                MS PATTERSON:  No questions.
11  15027                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
12     much.
13  15028                We will now take a 15-minute break. 
14     We will be back at five minutes to four.
15  15029                Nous reprendrons à quatre heures
16     moins cinq.
17     --- Short recess at / Courte suspension à 1540
18     --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1600
19  15030                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary,
20     s'il vous plaît, voulez-vous inviter le participant
21     suivant.
22  15031                Mme SANTERRE:  Merci, Madame la
23     Présidente.
24  15032                La présentation sera faite par la
25     Chambre de commerce et d'industrie du Québec


 1     métropolitain.
 2  15033                La parole est à vous.
 4  15034                M. McGOLDRICK:  Mesdames et Messieurs
 5     les Conseillers, Madame la Présidente, effectivement
 6     nous sommes seulement deux; je dois regretter
 7     l'absence, pour des raisons inévitables,
 8     incontournables, de M. Alain Kirouac, le directeur
 9     général de la chambre.  Alors je suis accompagné de
10     Mme Sylvie Pagé, productrice indépendante de Tout Écran
11     et membre de la Table des industries culturelles de la
12     Chambre de commerce et d'industrie du Québec
13     métropolitain.
14  15035                Je note que notre chambre est la
15     seule à se présenter devant ces audiences, ce qui me
16     surprend quelque peu parce que de nos jours la culture
17     devient de plus en plus économique dans le sens que les
18     entreprises culturelles deviennent de plus en plus
19     importantes.
20  15036                Peut-être que cet intérêt pour les
21     industries culturelles a été une des raisons pour
22     lesquelles, en fin de semaine dernière, la Chambre de
23     commerce de Québec métro a été nommée la chambre de
24     commerce de l'année par la Chambre de commerce du
25     Québec, qui était en congrès à Rivière-du-Loup.


 1  15037                Peut-être que j'en profiterais tout à
 2     l'heure pour déposer à Mme la Présidente le premier
 3     numéro de la nouvelle revue de la Chambre de commerce
 4     et d'industrie du Québec métropolitain, où il y a un
 5     article sur le GRAPPE en page 13, qui est le Grand
 6     réseau des acteurs et promoteurs du partenariat
 7     économique.  C'est par le biais de cet organisme-là que
 8     la chambre s'intéresse sur le terrain à toutes les
 9     dimensions de l'activité économique, que ce soit la
10     technologie, les infrastructures et la culture.
11  15038                Alors la Table des industries
12     culturelles de la chambre, représentée ici par Mme Pagé
13     et moi-même, nous sommes heureux au nom de la chambre
14     de vous apporter un message.  Ce message, je le résume
15     brièvement avant de lire mes notes orales.
16  15039                Premièrement, l'époque de la
17     concentration des décideurs n'est plus nécessaire dans
18     une économie mondiale d'aujourd'hui.  Les régions
19     naturelles, qui sont le foyer de populations,
20     d'activités économiques, sociales et culturelles, et
21     homogènes, et caetera, c'est le remplacement de demain
22     de ce qu'on appelait autrefois les états-nations;
23     l'Europe qui se construit accorde une large place,
24     d'ailleurs, au phénomène des régions.
25  15040                Je vais parler également de la région


 1     de Québec et aussi de l'industrie de l'audiovisuel dans
 2     notre région, qui est de plus en plus dynamique. 
 3     Ensuite, nous terminerons en disant qu'est-ce qui nous
 4     manque pour réussir dans ce monde qui se dessine.
 5  15041                Alors voilà en bref ce que je vais
 6     dire.  Maintenant, je vais lire une présentation un peu
 7     plus formelle.
 8  15042                La chambre est heureuse, évidemment,
 9     de l'occasion qui lui est offerte d'élaborer sur le
10     mémoire soumis en juillet dernier concernant les
11     politiques du Conseil relatives à la télévision
12     canadienne de demain.  Nous spécifions "de demain" car
13     notre préoccupation, comme d'ailleurs celle de la
14     Commission en tenant ces audiences publiques, est de
15     mieux répondre aux nouvelles attentes de la population
16     canadienne et de l'industrie qui la dessert.
17  15043                Le contexte dans lequel s'épanouira
18     la télévision canadienne de demain n'est pas le même
19     qu'hier, alors qu'à cette époque la stratégie
20     canadienne face à l'hégémonie américaine faisait appel
21     à une centralisation excessive appuyée d'une
22     concentration des ressources financières, techniques et
23     humaines à Toronto et à Montréal.  Il en est résulté
24     une qualité et une efficacité certaines mais, dans le
25     cas de l'auditoire anglo-canadien, un désintérêt


 1     grandissant de la programmation, reflet de l'uniformité
 2     du produit face à la variété chez le voisin.
 3  15044                Ce qui fait la force d'un pays à
 4     structure régionale comme le Canada, c'est sa
 5     diversité.  Pour la raison évoquée ci-haut, celle-ci,
 6     cette diversité, est occultée par une stratégie
 7     maintenant dépassée où la qualité technique est acquise
 8     et les économies d'échelle sont moins importantes qu'au
 9     début de la télévision.
10  15045                Le cas de la télévision au Canada
11     français est différent seulement dans la mesure où la
12     concurrence américaine pour la faveur des
13     téléspectateurs est plus faible en raison du fait que
14     la télé québécoise colle davantage à la réalité
15     culturelle du Québec.  Le problème, par contre, de la
16     désaffection est le même dans tout le pays dans le sens
17     que les régions ne trouvent pas leur spécificité dans
18     une programmation standardisée axée autour d'une
19     culture type qui voile les racines diverses et le
20     dynamique des sociétés régionales.
21  15046                Pour la population canadienne, le
22     grand perdant est la variété, celle qui compte, celle
23     du contenu.  Nous ne pouvons plus jouer la carte du
24     produit unique ni celle de la nostalgie.  Les régions
25     ont plus à offrir.


 1  15047                N'oublions pas que si la
 2     mondialisation des échanges standardise les marchés
 3     pour les produits de grande consommation, elle offre
 4     aussi des débouchés élargis pour des produits
 5     distinctifs issus de la créativité des populations, et
 6     cette créativité, surtout dans le domaine culturel, est
 7     reliée intimement au vécu des gens, nourrie et inspirée
 8     par leur propre histoire et alimentée par le contexte
 9     régional, avec les influences de la géographie, de
10     l'économique ou du social.  Pour qu'elle s'épanouisse,
11     qu'elle jaillisse abondante, elle ne doit pas devoir se
12     déraciner.  Le contenu produit en région peut aspirer à
13     la valeur universelle autant que celui produit dans les
14     métropoles.
15  15048                Pour jouer le rôle de fenêtre sur le
16     monde, les régions doivent avoir une masse critique de
17     production, ce qui permet de développer et de conserver
18     les ressources techniques et financières et humaines. 
19     Ainsi, les régions peuvent concurrencer les autres
20     centres de création et de production et contribuer à la
21     diffusion de la culture du pays dans son ensemble.
22  15049                La Chambre de commerce souscrit à une
23     plus grande place pour la production en région.  Si les
24     régions démontrent un dynamisme, ce qui est le cas de
25     Québec, nous souhaitons que le CRTC, par ses politiques


 1     et son encadrement de l'industrie, facilite les
 2     initiatives créatrices d'emplois et crée un cadre qui
 3     leur permette de compétitionner à armes égales.
 4  15050                Le nombre d'organismes qui se
 5     présentent à ces audiences indique déjà un intérêt à la
 6     démarche du CRTC, et les intérêts variés qui sont en
 7     jeu -- producteurs, diffuseurs, spécialistes,
 8     créateurs, artisans et gens d'affaires -- se succèdent
 9     à cette tribune avec leurs besoins, leurs craintes,
10     leurs espoirs, leurs critiques et leurs inquiétudes.
11  15051                La Commission entendra des
12     intervenants dont la préoccupation première est
13     économique, ceux qui, dans le contexte de
14     déréglementation, ou même de réglementation, se
15     désespèrent seulement lorsque les règles normales du
16     marché sont détournées et qu'elles entravent la
17     fonction sociale de l'entreprise, qui est celle
18     d'assurer l'équilibre entre l'offre et la demande même
19     dans les produits culturels et d'y trouver leur profit
20     dans le respect des règles du jeu.
21  15052                Dans une économie libre comme la
22     nôtre, la tâche d'un organisme comme le CRTC est
23     toujours délicate.  Ses choix affectent les citoyens et
24     les gens d'affaires.
25  15053                En terminant, mesdames et messieurs,


 1     vous me permettrez de rappeler que, peu importe le
 2     secteur d'activités à essence économique qu'on débat,
 3     même celui de la culture populaire et des
 4     communications, des entreprises en santé constituent la
 5     base de notre richesse collective sans toutefois
 6     prétendre être le seul déterminant de notre
 7     épanouissement social et culturel.
 8  15054                Merci.
 9  15055                Maintenant, je passe la parole à ma
10     collègue, Mme Sylvie Pagé, qui, comme je l'ai dit, est
11     producteur indépendant et membre de la Table des
12     industries culturelles du GRAPPE de la Chambre de
13     commerce de Québec.
14  15056                Madame Pagé.
15  15057                Mme PAGÉ:  Madame la Présidente,
16     Mesdames, Messieurs les Commissaires, je voudrais
17     soulever quelques points dont on a déjà parlé soit par
18     la table du GRAPPE, soit comme producteur indépendant
19     lorsque je suis également aux audiences dans ce cas-là.
20  15058                On a souvent parlé -- et je voulais
21     le soulever à nouveau -- que Québec est le deuxième
22     pôle francophone de production en Amérique du Nord.  La
23     région de Québec nous apparaît donc bien plus qu'un
24     simple complément de marché, elle est aussi un
25     potentiel d'expression et d'opinion.


 1  15059                Les ressources, rapidement:  environ
 2     400 personnes oeuvrent dans le secteur de la production
 3     à Québec, 150 techniciens pigistes, près de 500
 4     artistes actifs et une quinzaine de maisons de
 5     production.  Tout récemment, il y a à peu près un mois,
 6     l'ONF d'ailleurs ouvrait un bureau à Québec avec un
 7     producteur qui aura son bureau officiel dans la ville
 8     de Québec, qui travaillera avec toutes les régions. 
 9     Alors déjà l'ONF a fait un pas là-dessus suite à notre
10     travail et en conséquence de l'énorme travail de
11     réalisateurs et de producteurs qui se fait dans la
12     région, et ils ont fait le choix de la ville de Québec
13     pour toutes les régions de la province.
14  15060                Il y a aussi une autre bonne nouvelle
15     à Québec.  Il y a la tête de réseau anglophone Global,
16     dont vous avez permis l'installation.  C'est une
17     démarche dont, évidemment, les producteurs se
18     réjouissent, la table également et la Chambre de
19     commerce.  Il y a du travail à faire.  On doit créer
20     ces liens-là, ces habitudes de travail, mais on en est
21     très heureux.
22  15061                Ce qu'il faut bien voir aussi, ce
23     qu'on demande d'une façon concrète, par exemple, au
24     CRTC, c'est, dans le cadre réglementaire du CRTC, on
25     devra légiférer pour rendre impossible l'évitement des


 1     diffuseurs -- et je vais m'expliquer -- de produire et
 2     de faire produire en région par des compétences
 3     régionales des émissions qui pourront être vues et
 4     financées par l'ensemble des Canadiens.  On en
 5     discutera ensemble.
 6  15062                Il y a aussi le fait que le CRTC --
 7     un autre point dont on s'est rendu compte -- a
 8     évidemment des exigences minimales sur les stations
 9     locales.  On en a parlé beaucoup lorsque vous
10     renouvelez les licences de stations locales; on parle
11     beaucoup d'obligations d'heures de production pour des
12     informations et on tend tranquillement à sensibiliser
13     tout le monde, le Conseil également et les gens de la
14     production et les diffuseurs locaux, pour produire pas
15     uniquement des informations mais toutes les formes de
16     télévision qui sont accessibles pour les producteurs,
17     notamment pour Téléfilm, le Fonds canadien de
18     télévision et les crédits d'impôt.  Alors ça suppose
19     des formes de télévision qui sont admissibles à ces
20     genres de financement là.
21  15063                On espère notamment que le CRTC va
22     diversifier dans ses obligations, va demander
23     précisément des formes de télévision autres que de la
24     nouvelle.  On est bien bons dans la nouvelle, on fait
25     ça à peu près depuis 15 ans, mais aussi il y a toute


 1     une expertise qui s'est développée pour des séries pour
 2     enfants, pour des documentaires -- la preuve, l'ONF
 3     d'ailleurs a choisi Québec -- et des miniséries;
 4     évidemment, pas des séries lourdes qui entraînent
 5     énormément de budget.
 6  15064                Soit dit en passant, cet été j'ai
 7     co-produit avec une maison de Montréal une série
 8     lourde; alors tout est possible.
 9  15065                Ce dont on se rend compte,
10     effectivement, c'est qu'après de nombreuses
11     représentations auprès de Téléfilm Canada, la SODEC, le
12     fonds, force est de constater que la solution se trouve
13     ici avec vous, les représentants du CRTC.  Les
14     diffuseurs ne bougeront que si les obligations de
15     licence leur sont imposées.
16  15066                À mon grand plaisir -- vous avez lu
17     effectivement le communiqué de presse -- Téléfilm
18     Canada a résumé sa comparution de vendredi dernier et
19     demande expressément au Conseil -- je vais le prendre 
20     tout près de moi -- qu'il devrait exiger, par des
21     conditions concernant des droits de diffusion, que les
22     radiodiffuseurs déclenchent un nombre convenable de
23     productions régionales.  Alors on est très heureux de
24     constater qu'effectivement, d'une façon formelle,
25     Téléfilm est cohérent dans les démarches qu'on avait


 1     faites auprès d'eux et effectivement on est rendu à
 2     essayer de trouver ensemble des mesures qui ne
 3     bousculent pas un marché mais qui affinent et qui
 4     rendent cohérent le fait qu'on est dans un système de
 5     réglementation.
 6  15067                Il y a un autre point aussi que
 7     j'aimerais soulever à l'attention du Conseil, et c'est
 8     les fameuses reprises.  Les reprises chez les
 9     diffuseurs constituent maintenant près de 30 pour cent
10     de certaines grilles de programmation.  Ceci constitue
11     une fausse vision de la réalité de l'offre de
12     programmation et une impossible demande par rapport à
13     la production.
14  15068                Malgré l'avènement de nombreux
15     canaux, l'industrie de la télévision à Québec a
16     encaissé un grave recul de diffusion au cours des
17     dernières années.  Le volume de production à Québec n'a
18     pas du tout progressé malgré la venue de tous ces
19     canaux-là, de telle sorte que la contribution de
20     l'industrie de Québec à l'offre de programmation
21     télévisuelle est passée de 15 pour cent en 1975 à 3
22     pour cent en 1996.
23  15069                Je tiens à le redire parce que c'est
24     ça, la réalité.  Malgré qu'on a effectivement beaucoup
25     plus de canaux, on parle des reprises, mais l'offre


 1     télévisuelle à Québec ne nous a pas permis d'accroître
 2     et de progresser dans le marché disponible de la
 3     production.
 4  15070                Alors il faut créer cette habitude-là
 5     chez les diffuseurs d'aller demander, et la façon de le
 6     faire, de créer cette habitude-là à 250 kilomètres de
 7     la métropole, c'est de créer une obligation,
 8     effectivement.
 9  15071                Téléfilm Canada, notamment, a
10     travaillé avec des projets en pré-phase dans lesquels
11     ils ont investi de l'argent.  C'était un projet pilote
12     qui ne demandait pas de licence de diffuseur, alors on
13     était vraiment à une phase préliminaire, et ça a
14     encouragé énormément les producteurs à préparer des
15     dossiers qui leur permettraient éventuellement de les
16     présenter chez les diffuseurs et d'enclencher des
17     licences.
18  15072                On sait que ce sont les diffuseurs
19     qui enclenchent les licences et, suite à ça, la
20     production peut suivre le cours du financement.  Alors
21     c'est essentiellement là où on doit... le doigt sur le
22     bobo, c'est là.
23  15073                Il y a un point important:  En date
24     du 6 mai dernier le communiqué du CRTC demandait quel
25     incitatif encouragerait les diffuseurs conventionnels à


 1     investir dans des émissions locales et régionales,
 2     notamment.  Il y a une petite note que je voudrais
 3     porter à votre attention.
 4  15074                À partir du moment où, comme
 5     producteur régional, on fait des émissions, on est à la
 6     recherche, évidemment, pour boucler la structure de
 7     financement, de partenaires financiers et on crée dans
 8     notre région, dans notre milieu, un nouveau
 9     comportement chez les gens qui peuvent financer, chez
10     des partenaires commanditaires notamment, chez des gens
11     qui éventuellement n'auraient jamais investi dans la
12     télévision, et ils le font par le biais des producteurs
13     indépendants qui doivent compléter la structure de
14     financement.  Ça crée un mouvement économique
15     intéressant et c'est très efficace.
16  15075                Ça, c'est juste une question de
17     réflexe; les diffuseurs n'ont pas encore ce réflexe-là
18     de dire:  Effectivement, on va aller chercher un
19     nouveau marché au niveau des commanditaires.
20  15076                LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Madame Pagé, on
21     m'indique que vous avez déjà dépassé l'allocation de
22     temps; alors j'aimerais vous demander de résumer avant
23     que la cloche explose.
24  15077                Mme PAGÉ:  C'est beau.  Je vais être
25     très rapide.  Deux points.


 1  15078                Je voulais juste tenir aussi en
 2     considération l'importance de la culture.  Même
 3     Mme Copps a fait un bon travail le 24 juin dernier, par
 4     exemple.  On pouvait noter dans un communiqué
 5     l'importance de maintenir les cultures locales et
 6     nationales et de reconnaître que le pluralisme et la
 7     diversité culturelle font la grandeur d'un pays.  On
 8     discute maintenant des mesures visant à préserver ces
 9     cultures locales et nationales.  Alors je pense qu'il
10     faut prendre les mesures.
11  15079                Dernier autre point.  Vous parliez
12     tantôt des documentaires à Radio-Canada, par exemple. 
13     On parlait aussi du financement des documentaires par
14     Rogers.  On parlait aussi des fenêtres, des grilles au
15     niveau des documentaires.
16  15080                Il faut aussi créer des grilles pour
17     de nouveaux documentaires.  Radio-Canada et Télé-Québec
18     aussi ont fait des grilles, mais ils ressortent de la
19     poussière des vieux documentaires.  Ce serait le fun
20     qu'on puisse donner des projets de documentaires à des
21     producteurs.
22  15081                Alors je vais vous laisser là-dessus,
23     si vous avez des questions.
24  15082                LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Voilà.  Merci, Madame
25     Pagé et Monsieur McGolbrick.


 1  15083                La conseillère Pennefather, s'il vous
 2     plaît.
 3  15084                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Bonjour. 
 4     Merci d'être avec nous cet après-midi.  Vous venez
 5     d'arriver de la ville de Québec?
 6  15085                M. McGOLDRICK:  Oui.
 7  15086                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Excellent.
 8  15087                En effet, vous avez couvert aussi
 9     beaucoup de points dans la présentation cet après-midi
10     et dans votre présentation écrite, sur laquelle j'ai
11     quelques questions.  Mais avant de commencer quelques
12     thèmes fondamentaux, j'aimerais juste être claire sur
13     certaines choses.
14  15088                On mentionne souvent -- c'est la base
15     de votre intervention -- la production, la présence
16     régionale à la télévision régionale et à la télévision
17     nationale.  La définition des mots, la clarification...
18     qu'est-ce qu'on veut dire par "régionale" dans le sens
19     Québec?
20  15089                Vous avez mentionné que l'ONF
21     revient, en termes de production, dans la ville de
22     Québec et vous avez parlé dans ce sens-là des régions
23     du Québec; ils ont choisi d'être en ville au lieu de
24     dans les autres régions comme ils étaient dans le
25     temps.  Est-ce qu'on utilise le mot de la meilleure


 1     façon si on parle des régions du Québec?  Parce que
 2     vous avez mentionné aussi Téléfilm Canada et leur
 3     implication dans les productions régionales.  Voilà.
 4  15090                M. McGOLDRICK:  Alors, Madame
 5     Pennefather, il y a évidemment région et région, il y a
 6     grandes régions, mais je pense qu'aujourd'hui on
 7     définit "région" comme un ensemble géographique avec
 8     une activité économique commune et évidemment
 9     d'importance suffisante pour créer une société vivante,
10     et caetera.
11  15091                Alors, dans ce sens-là, évidemment
12     tout se fait en région, évidemment tout se fait à
13     l'état d'une unité familiale ou un village, et caetera,
14     mais à un moment donné, dans notre monde à nous, les
15     régions, ce sont des ensembles relativement grands.
16  15092                Alors il peut y avoir des régions à
17     l'intérieur du Québec, des régions à l'intérieur du
18     Canada, et évidemment à l'intérieur de l'Europe aussi
19     il y a des grandes régions, le Middle Europe et tout
20     ça.
21  15093                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Mais nous,
22     ici aujourd'hui, on parle surtout de la région du
23     Québec vis-à-vis de la région de Montréal.
24  15094                M. McGOLDRICK:  Alors on parle,
25     finalement, de la région de la capitale.


 1  15095                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  De la
 2     capitale.
 3  15096                M. McGOLDRICK:  C'est une région tout
 4     de même qui... presque en caricaturant, je parlais d'un
 5     produit standard, et caetera, un produit finalement
 6     moyen, anonyme, qu'on a créé au moment où il fallait,
 7     dans un sens, concentrer les efforts et les ressources,
 8     et caetera.  Aujourd'hui, ce n'est plus nécessaire
 9     parce qu'on peut avoir des économies d'échelle à
10     beaucoup moindre échelle, à plus petite échelle, et
11     ainsi de suite.
12  15097                Mais si on regarde, par exemple, la
13     région de Québec, c'est quatre siècles d'histoire,
14     650 000 personnes qui ont des racines profondes, des
15     racines françaises, irlandaises; à un moment donné, le
16     tiers de la ville de Québec était irlandais, et
17     caetera.  Tout ça, une culture qui s'est développée
18     finalement de façon homogène et quasiment en vase clos,
19     et à ce moment-là qui a produit... au 19e et au 20e
20     siècles une bonne partie du patrimoine culturel du
21     Canada et du Québec, ça s'est fait à Québec.  Les
22     poètes, les historiens, et caetera, c'était à Québec à
23     ce moment-là.
24  15098                Ce n'est pas parce que les moyens de
25     support changent et deviennent électroniques qu'il n'y


 1     a pas là matière culturelle pour développer.
 2  15099                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Non, je
 3     comprends très bien.
 4  15100                M. McGOLDRICK:  On veut la
 5     développer, on a les ressources pour la développer chez
 6     nous, et c'est ce qu'on veut.
 7  15101                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Je
 8     comprends très bien.  C'est juste que j'arrive au
 9     moment où on peut discuter de ce que nous, ici, le
10     Conseil, on peut faire.
11  15102                Alors disons si on part de la région
12     de la capitale, vous nous proposez un autre thème très
13     important, l'application équitable de ce nouveau cadre
14     réglementaire... et je cite.  Et à la page 5 vous
15     mentionné le besoin d'une certaine autonomie.
16  15103                Pourriez-vous nous expliquer
17     qu'est-ce que c'est, cette autonomie que vous cherchez,
18     qui est mentionnée à la page 5 de votre mémoire écrit?
19  15104                Mme PAGÉ:  Oui.  Moi, je vais vous
20     répondre à ça.
21  15105                C'est que lorsqu'on parle, par
22     exemple... évidemment, c'est les têtes de réseaux qui
23     enclenchent une licence, et les stations locales et
24     régionales ont des heures, donc des plages à compléter
25     selon l'obligation du CRTC notamment.


 1  15106                Ce qu'on demande, par exemple, c'est
 2     d'être capables d'avoir une autonomie par rapport à
 3     l'obligation du réseau, c'est-à-dire qu'on est capables
 4     de fermer la switch du réseau ou bien de faire une
 5     production locale qui est diffusée localement ou bien
 6     une production qui sera choisie par la région, par
 7     exemple le directeur des programmes de la région, pour
 8     être capable de soumettre au réseau aussi.
 9  15107                Tout à l'heure, aussi, quand on parle
10     de régions, évidemment quand on parle de régions par
11     Téléfilm... vous avez sonné le mot "Téléfilm"; on a le
12     même problème que les autres qui sont hors Montréal et
13     hors Toronto; quand on parle des régions par rapport à
14     Téléfilm, c'est hors Montréal et hors Toronto.  Alors
15     les producteurs qui sont en région, que ce soit Québec
16     ou dans l'est ou dans l'ouest, c'est la même
17     problématique.
18  15108                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Alors, si
19     on reste dans la capitale, on parle, si j'ai bien
20     compris, d'une plus grande présence de la production
21     régionale dans la région et sur le réseau, les réseaux
22     francophones.
23  15109                Mme PAGÉ:  Exactement.  Exactement.
24  15110                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Et pour y
25     arriver vous proposez certains règlements.  Vous nous


 1     dites que c'est vers nous qu'il faut tourner pour ça
 2     mais, en ce qui concerne le contenu de ce cadre
 3     réglementaire, vous aimeriez que le Conseil adopte...
 4     vous suggérez que des exigences en contenu canadien
 5     soient imposées aux heures de grande écoute.
 6  15111                Comme vous le savez, il existe déjà
 7     une exigence que les télédiffuseurs diffusent 50 pour
 8     cent du contenu canadien durant ces heures.  Alors
 9     votre demande vise-t-elle spécifiquement une exigence
10     en contenu canadien de programmation de type local à
11     l'intérieur de ce règlement déjà existant ou est-ce que
12     vous avez d'autres suggestions à nous faire?
13  15112                M. McGOLDRICK:  Évidemment, plus il y
14     a un contenu canadien large, plus à ce moment-là il y a
15     des possibilités pour tous les producteurs.
16  15113                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Vous
17     demandez un contenu canadien plus large que 50 pour
18     cent?
19  15114                M. McGOLDRICK:  Non.  Plus il y en a,
20     évidemment, ça fait notre affaire, mais ce n'est pas
21     dans le sens de notre préoccupation à nous.  De toute
22     façon, ce n'est pas dans notre pouvoir de le faire. 
23     Mais, s'il y en a, je pense que là, lorsqu'il y en a,
24     du contenu canadien, à ce moment-là, notre intérêt...
25  15115                Mme PAGÉ:  Ce qui est important pour


 1     une activité de "productariat" plus grande, c'est... on
 2     s'est rendu compte, par exemple, que les décideurs
 3     locaux offrent, au niveau de leur grille horaire, une
 4     possibilité de diffusion des productions locales ou
 5     régionales, même sur le réseau, à des heures qui ne
 6     sont pas du prime time.  Quand on sait que ce n'est pas
 7     du prime time, on ne peut pas financer selon les voies
 8     normales de financement du prime time comme avec
 9     Téléfilm, les fonds et tout ça.
10  15116                Alors ça cause un problème donc de
11     production énorme.  Évidemment, comme la production ne
12     va pas toujours avec les ressources financières, à un
13     moment donné il y a un minimum.
14  15117                Alors ça nous confronte à une
15     problématique de ne pas être... si on n'est pas dans le
16     prime time.
17  15118                La question, c'est:  Est-ce qu'on
18     considère, par exemple, que le prime time peut être à
19     partir de 5 h 00?  On se rend compte que si on regarde
20     la télé attentivement, les productions régionales, même
21     si elles sont faites en région et sont même diffusées à
22     travers les réseaux, ce sont dans des heures qui ne
23     sont pas dans le prime time.  Alors c'est une
24     difficulté supplémentaire.
25  15119                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Alors vous


 1     recommandez certains incitatifs aussi, peut-être, pour
 2     insister que, pour la programmation régionale ou
 3     locale -- il faut être plus clairs sur de quoi on parle
 4     quand on dit "locale" aussi -- soit diffusée aux heures
 5     de grande écoute.  Est-ce que c'est le genre de
 6     conditions que vous proposez?
 7  15120                Mme PAGÉ:  Il y a deux façons de faire
 8     les choses:  qu'elle soit diffusée aux heures de grande
 9     écoute ou qu'on élargisse, par exemple, l'heure de
10     grande écoute dans la définition d'"heures de grande
11     écoute" d'une part.  Il y a une autre possibilité
12     aussi, et c'est:  est-ce qu'il est possible de
13     considérer les productions régionales comme une
14     catégorie en soi qui soit admissible au financement?
15  15121                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  C'est quoi,
16     la définition, alors, de ce genre de productions?
17  15122                Mme PAGÉ:  Quand on parle de genre, on
18     parle des dramatiques, des émissions pour enfants, des
19     variétés, et un genre qui serait les productions
20     régionales pour leur permettre d'avoir accès au
21     financement.  Ce n'est pas dans le contenu, mais
22     c'est...
23  15123                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Et c'est
24     une production qui peut être pas juste un documentaire,
25     une nouvelle, mais du divertissement...


 1  15124                Mme PAGÉ:  De différentes catégories,
 2     c'est ça.  Finalement, c'est une sous-catégorie.
 3  15125                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Pour
 4     revenir avec la production régionale, qui est non
 5     seulement les nouvelles mais d'autres types de
 6     productions... c'est ça que vous recherchez?
 7  15126                Mme PAGÉ:  Exact.
 8  15127                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Alors vous
 9     allez dire à l'intérieur du contenu canadien déjà
10     existant, le règlement qui dit 50 pour cent, dans le
11     marché francophone, qui est un marché distinct, c'est
12     tout ce qu'on a pour le moment.  L'APFTQ a recommandé,
13     comme vous le savez probablement, d'autres moyens, par
14     exemple les crédits pour certains types de
15     programmation aux heures de grande écoute.
16  15128                Comment vous insérez les productions
17     locales là-dedans?  Est-ce que vous êtes d'accord avec
18     l'APFTQ en termes de ce genre d'incitatif pour la
19     programmation locale?
20  15129                Mme PAGÉ:  Je vais avoir de la
21     difficulté à me prononcer parce que je n'ai pas vu le
22     libellé de ce projet-là.  Il y a des incitatifs qui ont
23     été demandés au niveau des crédits d'impôt pour les
24     productions qui sont faites en région, mais ce qu'on
25     nuance, dans ma chaise de producteur qui est en région,


 1     ce n'est pas la même chose... je suis membre aussi de
 2     l'APFTQ, mais ce que je veux, moi, c'est d'être capable
 3     de travailler dans ma région.  Il y a des ressources,
 4     et quand je n'ai pas assez de ressources, je vais aller
 5     les chercher, les gens de Montréal, par exemple.
 6  15130                Ce qu'on demande actuellement,
 7     l'APFTQ, c'est des facilitants pour aller travailler en
 8     région.  Moi, je vous dis:  On en a, du potentiel, en
 9     région; il faut avoir d'abord des facilitants pour, par
10     exemple, quand le Fonds -- on s'est habitués à dire le
11     FTCPEC, mais il faut dire le FTC maintenant -- a créé
12     la prime régionale, que ce soit la prime régionale de 5
13     pour cent de financement supplémentaire, ça pouvait
14     créer un mouvement parce que ça devait être appliqué
15     seulement aux gens qui avaient un siège social en
16     région.
17  15131                Alors ça, ça crée une activité
18     économique et ça crée une dynamique dans les régions;
19     ça ne fait pas amener des gens chez nous.
20  15132                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Quand vous
21     parlez de la masse critique de production, qui sont les
22     autres partenaires, les joueurs dans le secteur de la
23     capitale?  Quelles synergies vous cherchez pour aller
24     chercher une masse critique de production, ou est-ce
25     qu'il faut aller à Montréal ou est-ce qu'il faut aller


 1     international, sur les coproductions internationales? 
 2     Comment on aborde une masse critique de production?
 3  15133                M. McGOLDRICK:  Je pourrais peut-être
 4     juste ajouter, avant que Sylvie donne plus de détails,
 5     que justement suite au forum qu'on a eu au mois de mars
 6     1997 les gens de la région, les producteurs et tous les
 7     artistes, les artisans de la télévision, et caetera, se
 8     sont rendu compte de leur force, de leur dynamisme, de
 9     leur intérêt à travailler ensemble, et à l'heure
10     actuelle on est en train d'inventorier les faiblesses
11     qu'on a dans les ressources qui manquent.  S'il manque
12     quelque chose du côté technique, par exemple, le
13     montage de films, et caetera, on va s'arrêter et on va
14     chercher des solutions à ce problème-là.
15  15134                En d'autres mots, on s'en va donner
16     les ressources et ensuite on va aller chercher, dans un
17     sens, si les règles permettent d'en obtenir, soit du
18     financement ou soit des contrats.  À ce moment-là, on
19     va alimenter et donner à la région la chance de
20     produire davantage.
21  15135                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Je le
22     mentionne par ce que c'est un défi qui existe depuis
23     quelque temps de créer une masse critique de production
24     surtout à cause des coûts, mais vous avez aussi
25     certains atouts, peut-être la présence de d'autres


 1     institutions, la présence du théâtre au Québec qui peut
 2     faire en sorte qu'on peut créer cette masse critique.
 3  15136                J'aimerais aussi passer sur d'autres
 4     suggestions que vous avez faites, et je ne suis pas
 5     claire qu'est-ce que ça veut dire.
 6  15137                À la page 6, le premier paragraphe:
 7                            "Pour ces mêmes raisons, la
 8                            Chambre estime que ces
 9                            modifications faciliteraient aux
10                            producteurs indépendants hors
11                            zones métropolitaines l'accès
12                            aux licences de diffusion et,
13                            par conséquent, aux divers
14                            programmes de financement
15                            offerts par les gouvernements et
16                            les organismes gouvernementaux
17                            ou privés."
18  15138                Pourriez-vous me dire qu'est-ce que
19     ça veut dire exactement?
20  15139                Mme PAGÉ:  En fait, ce n'est pas moi
21     qui ai rédigé ce mémoire-là, mais je pense
22     qu'essentiellement ça explique un petit peu ce que
23     j'énonçais tout à l'heure en disant qu'effectivement il
24     faut avoir accès aux licences de diffusion, donc il
25     faut avoir un incitatif, il faut aller dans les têtes


 1     de réseaux pour dire:  "Je dois faire tant d'émissions
 2     canadiennes avec tant de contenu canadien, je dois
 3     aussi aller chercher des productions qui seront
 4     produites en région."
 5  15140                Donc il y a un incitatif ou une
 6     obligation pour les diffuseurs d'aller chercher
 7     carrément... c'est ça.  C'est ça que ça veut dire.
 8  15141                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Moi, j'ai
 9     lu ça comme disant qu'on suggère que les producteurs
10     indépendants et les productrices indépendantes
11     deviennent le télédiffuseur en allant chercher des
12     licences.
13  15142                Mme PAGÉ:  Non.  Non.
14  15143                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Ce n'est
15     pas ça que vous voulez dire?
16  15144                Mme PAGÉ:  Non.  Ce n'est pas, je
17     pense, ce que le mémoire dit.
18  15145                M. McGOLDRICK:  Non, je ne pense pas
19     que ce soit ça, mais l'ambiguïté est dans le texte.
20  15146                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  C'est
21     plutôt qu'il y a des obligations d'aller chercher cette
22     production régionale, et dans ce sens-là il y a 
23     beaucoup de discussions ici, dans les audiences, sur la
24     possibilité que les télédiffuseurs puissent avoir accès
25     au Fonds de production, le Fonds de télévision.


 1  15147                Est-ce que vous êtes d'accord?  On
 2     demande de plus en plus... qu'est-ce qu'on suggère
 3     comme façon de supporter le financement de cette
 4     programmation locale et régionale?
 5  15148                Mme PAGÉ:  Déjà les diffuseurs se sont
 6     immiscés dans les... par exemple, on oblige un
 7     pourcentage de licences et ensuite la structure de
 8     financement doit être complétée par le producteur
 9     indépendant.  C'est la façon dont on procède; c'est
10     comme ça que, actuellement, on travaille.
11  15149                Mais de plus en plus le diffuseur va
12     négocier aussi des ententes et dire:  C'est un échange
13     par exemple pour aller chercher, nous, nos
14     commanditaires... il faut attirer notre commanditaire. 
15     On peut avoir des commerciaux en échange de la
16     visibilité, on a des panneaux d'ouverture et de
17     fermeture, mais ça, ça se négocie déjà.  Ça veut dire
18     que, dans le fond, le diffuseur a déjà accès un peu à
19     un montant d'argent supplémentaire parce qu'on doit en
20     plus négocier ça.
21  15150                Ça, c'est au moins notre garantie
22     comme producteur.
23  15151                On a déjà un pourcentage qui varie
24     quelquefois jusqu'à 30, 40 pour cent qu'il faut aller
25     chercher en plus par exemple chez les commanditaires


 1     indépendants; donc on est tributaires d'une négociation
 2     avec le diffuseur.  Si en plus on se fait gruger au
 3     niveau des fonds, ça cause un réel problème, ça fait un
 4     débalancement sur ce qui semble assez bien établi à mon
 5     avis.
 6  15152                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  J'ai une
 7     autre question sur la page 6 qui revient à un point
 8     très important aussi.  Au deuxième paragraphe vous
 9     dites que la chambre considère qu'appliquées à
10     l'ensemble du Canada ces modifications pourraient
11     grandement contribuer à dynamiser et à positionner sur
12     le marché mondial une industrie qui doit
13     continuellement se démarquer et s'affirmer face à
14     l'emprise télévisuelle de nos voisins du sud.  Mais on
15     parle surtout du marché francophone dans cette
16     présentation; en fait, plus étroitement, du marché de
17     la capitale du Québec et la production régionale qui en
18     sort.  On parle aussi très clairement de la distinction
19     de ce marché francophone.
20  15153                Comment ces mêmes modifications aux
21     conditions de licence, cette politique peut être
22     appliquée à l'ensemble du Canada si le marché
23     francophone est tellement distinct?  On voit encore que
24     ça devrait être appliqué partout.  Est-ce que j'ai mal
25     compris?


 1  15154                M. McGOLDRICK:  Il y a peut-être,
 2     justement, une ambiguïté.  Je pense que, si le CRTC,
 3     évidemment, dans sa réflexion considère le nouveau
 4     contexte dans lequel la télévision de demain ou les
 5     communications de demain vont se faire à l'échelle
 6     mondiale avec ce brassage, finalement, des cultures, ce
 7     choc des cultures, et caetera... que les modifications
 8     qu'ils pourraient faire dans un sens pour répondre aux
 9     attentes actuelles des régions, ce profil-là ou cette
10     structure-là pourrait être utile évidemment dans
11     l'ouest canadien ou dans les maritimes, et caetera.  En
12     d'autres mots, ça pourrait vous servir aussi, pour
13     répondre à l'objectif qui vous a été donné, je pense,
14     que la télévision reflète davantage la culture.  Et, à
15     ce moment-là, une fois que toutes ces choses-là ont la
16     chance de se développer, je pense, que ce soit
17     n'importe où dans le monde, si on a quelque chose qui a
18     une valeur universelle, on va pouvoir le vendre
19     l'extérieur.
20  15155                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Je pense
21     que je comprends mieux; le but est le même mais
22     peut-être que les modifications sont différentes, le
23     but étant une présence locale et régionale sur nos
24     réseaux.  C'est une autre façon d'améliorer la
25     télévision canadienne...


 1  15156                M. McGOLDRICK:  Oui.
 2  15157                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  ... et même
 3     dans une atmosphère et dans un environnement globaux.
 4  15158                M. McGOLDRICK:  C'est ça.
 5  15159                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  C'est un
 6     point important parce que, comme vous savez, on a
 7     rencontré durant le mois de juin beaucoup de Canadiens
 8     dans plusieurs villes au Canada et, comme Mme la
 9     Présidente a mentionné tantôt, c'est une réflexion,
10     c'est un besoin important qu'on a entendu pour avoir
11     plus de programmation et de production locales ou
12     régionales.
13  15160                Là, je rentre dans les définitions,
14     qu'est-ce que ça veut dire.  Ça peut vouloir dire les
15     nouvelles locales, ça peut aller dans votre cas jusqu'à
16     un certain type de production qui vient d'un autre
17     secteur de la province du Québec, ça peut aussi toucher
18     aux francophones à l'extérieur de la province du
19     Québec.
20  15161                Je pense que je comprends mieux ce
21     que vous...
22  15162                Mme PAGÉ:  Je dirais même que moi, mon
23     regard se pose davantage aussi, avec la problématique
24     des producteurs indépendants... anglophones également. 
25     Quand on est hors région, quand on dit "hors région" au


 1     niveau de la production indépendante, c'est hors
 2     Montréal et hors Toronto, et il y a une problématique
 3     qui est la même.
 4  15163                Il y a, par exemple, des belles
 5     choses qui arrivent, comme "Anne et la maison aux
 6     pignons verts", qui a été exportée... et je me souviens
 7     d'avoir vu l'équipe de production qui était à Cannes
 8     avec leurs blousons, très fiers d'être capables de la
 9     vendre à travers des pays du monde.  Ça a été des
10     coproductions qui ont été faites avec des gens... je ne
11     voudrais pas faire d'erreur, mais en principe une
12     coproduction montréalaise et des gens de l'est
13     également.
14  15164                Alors ce que je dis, c'est qu'en nous
15     donnant les moyens, comme producteurs indépendants,
16     dans les régions, même à travers le Canada, on bonifie
17     dans le fond, on permet les moyens financiers... donc
18     par des licences, obligations de licence, on permet de
19     faire refléter toute la culture et de faire créer des
20     choses magnifiques qui sont très exportables.
21  15165                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Une
22     dernière question.  Est-ce que vous trouvez que les
23     services spécialisés jouent un rôle là-dedans?
24  15166                Mme PAGÉ:  Absolument.  Eh, que vous
25     êtes gentille, parce que j'avais une petite note


 1     là-dessus tantôt.
 2  15167                Je pense qu'effectivement le CRTC,
 3     vous avez donc des exigences pour les stations locales,
 4     et ce qui serait pertinent, c'est qu'il y aurait des
 5     exigences à l'égard des canaux spécialisés pour les
 6     productions régionales également, parce que les canaux
 7     spécialisés, notamment, quand ce n'est pas pour des
 8     nouvelles... je pense à Canal D, je pense à Canal Vie;
 9     ils ne font pas de la nouvelle, et Dieu merci.  Alors
10     s'ils ont des obligations de production en région, on
11     ne nous demandera pas de faire des nouvelles, on va
12     nous demander plutôt des séries et tout ça.
13  15168                Effectivement, compte tenu qu'ils
14     vont chercher de l'argent aussi par la
15     câblodistribution, par les payeurs de taxes, et
16     caetera, je pense que ce serait une bonne chose qu'ils
17     aient une obligation.
18  15169                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Mais,
19     pensant qu'un certain pourcentage, qui est assez haut
20     pour la province de Québec, n'ont pas le câble, est-ce
21     que vous ne trouvez pas qu'il faut aussi pencher sur la
22     télévision conventionnelle privée?
23  15170                Mme PAGÉ:  Tout à l'heure, évidemment,
24     je vous parlais de la télévision conventionnelle quand
25     on parle essentiellement des obligations, mais je pense


 1     que, oui, peut-être que les obligations devraient être
 2     moindres, mais le regard et l'impact culturel des
 3     canaux spécialisés sont très importants, et je pense
 4     que ce sont des types de télévision qui pourraient se
 5     faire alimenter par des producteurs en région.
 6  15171                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  En
 7     conclusion, j'entends deux choses.  J'entends que vous
 8     voulez faire plus de production indépendante dans la
 9     région où vous vivez, mais j'entends aussi une
10     possibilité plus élargie pour que ces productions
11     puissent être vues dans la région et partout.
12  15172                Mme PAGÉ:  Exact.
13  15173                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  C'est le
14     dernier point qui est très important pour nous:  Si
15     vous étiez ici, quelles sont les priorités?  Qu'est-ce
16     qu'on fait?
17  15174                Mme PAGÉ:  Si j'étais à votre place?
18  15175                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  C'est ça.
19  15176                Mme PAGÉ:  Qu'est-ce qu'on fait...
20  15177                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Il faut
21     faire un résumé maintenant des points précis qui, vous
22     suggérez, peuvent vraiment augmenter la présence de la
23     production régionale.
24  15178                On prend pour acquis pour un moment
25     qu'il y a plus de moyens disponibles dans le secteur


 1     indépendant; ça, c'est un but, l'épanouissement du
 2     secteur indépendant.  Mais le but que je voulais
 3     discuter, c'est que ces productions sont vues à la
 4     télévision dans la région, à la télévision à Montréal
 5     et peut-être à l'extérieur de la province.
 6  15179                Quelle est la priorité?  Qu'est-ce
 7     qu'on fait, une étape après l'autre?  Parce que vous
 8     dites que ce n'est pas suffisant dans le moment.
 9  15180                Mme PAGÉ:  C'est l'obligation chez les
10     diffuseurs d'avoir un créneau.  Est-ce que c'est un
11     créneau production régionale?  Comme on a une
12     obligation d'avoir un pourcentage de contenu canadien,
13     on aurait une obligation de contenu régional produit
14     par les gens de la région.
15  15181                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  À quel
16     pourcentage?
17  15182                Mme PAGÉ:  Je ne sais pas, je ne peux
18     pas vous répondre à ça.
19  15183                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Merci.
20  15184                Mme PAGÉ:  Merci à vous.
21  15185                CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Ce sont
22     toutes mes questions, Madame la Présidente.
23  15186                LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Et voilà, Madame Pagé
24     et Monsieur McGoldrick, bon voyage de retour, et nous
25     vous remercions de votre présentation.


 1  15187                M. McGOLDRICK:  Merci.
 2  15188                Mme PAGÉ:  Merci.
 3                                                        1645
 4  15189                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary,
 5     would you invite the next participant, please?
 6  15190                MS SANTERRE:  The next presentation
 7     will be done by the Chinese Canadian National Council.
 9  15191                MR. MA:  My name is Jonas Ma, I'm the
10     executive director the Chinese Canadian National
11     Council, and this is our vice-president, Cynthia Pay.
12  15192                MS PAY:  Thanks for having us here
13     today.  It's our first appearance before you, and I
14     hope not our last.
15  15193                We're a national umbrella
16     organisation representing over 30 chapters across the
17     country.  We were formed in 1980, actually in response
18     to a television program on CTV called the "Campus
19     Giveaway."  This program depicted Chinese Canadians,
20     but said that they were foreigners and they were taking
21     away places at Canadian universities from so-called
22     "real Canadians."  So that led to a national campaign
23     and actually eventually led to the formation of our
24     group.  So historically, we have had a strong interest
25     in Canadian broadcasting, and also Canadian


 1     broadcasting policies.
 2  15194                We also support the CRTC's aim of
 3     promoting "a wide range of programming that reflects a
 4     linguistic duality, and multicultural and multiracial
 5     nature of Canadian society."
 6  15195                I was glad to hear earlier on that
 7     Mr. Tory from Rogers does think that diversity in
 8     broadcasting is important.  However, the CCNC would
 9     disagree with his comment that there has been a great
10     improvement in this area in recent years.
11  15196                It's difficult to measure the impact
12     of not being able to see yourself on TV and to hear
13     about your own stories.  According to the 1996 census,
14     Chinese Canadians now measure 920,000 people in Canada,
15     and there are almost 1.4 million East Asian Canadians.
16  15197                We would submit that these numbers
17     are not adequately reflected in broadcast media. 
18     Despite the growing size of our community, it's rare to
19     find Asian faces on television or to see dramatic
20     portrayals of our lives.  The few Asian characters that
21     do exist tend to reflect negative stereotypes of
22     Asians, such as prostitutes, drug dealers, or kung fu
23     masters.  One example of this is the recent CBC comedy
24     program called "Twitch City," and the only Asian
25     characters we saw there were actually drug importers


 1     who were hiding their products in pineapple cookies in
 2     the main character's apartment.
 3  15198                So we can't really quantify or give
 4     statistics on the impact of this kind of portrayal, but
 5     some of our members and ourselves have talked about the
 6     impact on them.  For example, one of our members from
 7     the city of Guelph in Ontario talked about growing up
 8     and feeling sort of like a nerd, and wishing that his
 9     hair was not so black, and his eyes were rounder, and
10     his features were more western.
11  15199                Another one of our youth members from
12     the Maritimes came to our recent youth conference in
13     Toronto, and she talked about the impact of just simply
14     being in a room with other Chinese Canadians, because
15     many people in non-urban or rural areas grow up in very
16     isolated community with very few other Chinese
17     Canadians.  So the lack of representation will have a
18     strong impact on them.  Just from my own experience, I
19     also grew up in a small southern Ontario town, and I
20     think as a mixed race or biracial Chinese Canadian had
21     sort of a unique experience.  And I can tell you that I
22     also wished I could see more Chinese Canadians on TV. 
23     I also had mixed feelings about my own appearance,
24     having lighter hair and sort of thinking that would
25     sort of help me blend into society.  And I think I've


 1     changed my approach to that now, coming here as a
 2     Chinese Canadian before you, but I have to tell you
 3     that those experiences are very painful to members of
 4     our community and, I don't know, like sort of something
 5     that doesn't go away when you become an adult.
 6  15200                So I've talked a bit about the impact
 7     on people living in small communities.  I think the
 8     same thing exists in large communities, although the
 9     number of Chinese Canadians in, say, Toronto and
10     Vancouver is growing and, in fact, we number 16 percent
11     of Vancouver's population, our numbers are still not
12     reflected in broadcast media.
13  15201                I've included a quotation from an
14     article by a 17-year-old Chinese Canadian from Toronto,
15     named Joyce Lau.  It was printed in the "Toronto Star"
16     this summer, and she talks about how whenever she saw
17     Chinese Canadians or Asians on television, they were
18     always owning a corner store, or running a Chinese
19     restaurant, or not having any lines.  And I guess I
20     could also add that they're more likely to die before
21     the end of the show.  But she talks about how she used
22     to sort of laugh it off, but actually she realised how
23     embarrassing that was for her, how painful and it
24     actually made her feel very ashamed of her own
25     heritage.


 1  15202                So I guess the lack of our
 2     representation sort of suggests that we're outsiders,
 3     just like the CTV program.  We're not real Canadians. 
 4     The fact that we don't have the close-ups that other
 5     people do doesn't sort of make us feel that our looks
 6     are somehow normal or are beautiful.  The TV does not
 7     reflect our community; it doesn't honour our
 8     differences; and it also doesn't promote tolerance and
 9     knowledge within the mainstream Canadian population.
10  15203                Just one further comment.  Also, I
11     think an additional problem is sort of the problem of
12     tokenism, and I would submit that the occasional role
13     or token role also does not solve this problem.  We
14     need full, rounded, sort of major, dramatic characters
15     in representation of our stories to have a real impact.
16  15204                And also, I think it's important to
17     note that Chinese Canadians are now the largest visible
18     minority community in Canada, so we're over 25 percent
19     of all visible minorities.
20  15205                We would like to make submissions on
21     two of the questions in your call for submissions
22     focusing on diversity, specifically questions 63 and
23     65.
24  15206                First of all question 63, which asks
25     whether Canadian cultural and racial minorities and


 1     aboriginal peoples are well-served by mainstream
 2     conventional television broadcasters, and what are the
 3     most effective ways to ensure that they reflect
 4     Canada's diversity.
 5  15207                So as you can gather from my
 6     comments, we would argue that these broadcasters do not
 7     reflect Canada's diversity.  Although visible
 8     minorities make up over 11 percent of the population in
 9     Canada, they aren't appearing in those numbers. 
10     Chinese Canadians in particular are not represented. 
11     They're not often as the television hosts, or experts,
12     or the centre of dramatic programming.
13  15208                Also, our stories are often ignored
14     or under-reported, and one example of that is the
15     recent story of Indonesia -- the ethnic Chinese people
16     there who were systematically raped and abused.  This
17     story was well-documented in the Chinese media, but it
18     was actually quite under-reported and ignored by the
19     mainstream broadcasters.
20  15209                And like I've said, when we are
21     visible, often we're stereotyped or linked to
22     sensationalised news stories, like home invasions or
23     other kind of gang-related crimes.
24  15210                We also link this lack of
25     representation to problems relating to employment


 1     equity, and I'll talk a bit about that more in detail.
 2  15211                I've also made some arguments around
 3     the fact that diverse programming or programming that
 4     shows Canada's society as it actually is could actually
 5     be quite commercially viable.
 6  15212                Earlier on, we heard some discussion
 7     of some of the stations, like the Speedvision or Golf
 8     networks, and I'm sure that fewer than 11 percent of
 9     the population plays golf or is fascinated by speed
10     boats and things like that.  Also, I think those kind
11     of programs could maybe be more popular in
12     international broadcast markets, because probably the
13     content and the people shown might be actually more
14     attractive to those buyers.
15  15213                So we have a few specific
16     recommendations on this question.
17  15214                The first one relates to public
18     funding or production funding.  We argue that ideally
19     there would be additional funds directed at producing
20     more diverse programming, but if this isn't available,
21     we would also argue that what funds are available
22     should be targeted to equity-seeking groups, and at
23     least, for example, if they are 11 percent of the
24     population if it is a minority, that at least that
25     percentage of funds should be targeted towards those


 1     groups.  We would also suggest that because of the poor
 2     record of mainstream broadcasters in producing
 3     representative and diverse work, that this money be
 4     directed more to independent producers.
 5  15215                Our second recommendation is that
 6     both exhibition and private funding be also directed to
 7     this diverse or equity programming.  These kind of
 8     requirements could be calculated in a way similar to
 9     that of Canadian content, for example, a minimum
10     percentage of advertising revenues could be directed to
11     equity programming, and monitoring and enforcement
12     could be done in the same way.
13  15216                A third recommendation is that
14     various incentives should be given to private
15     broadcasters to produce more of this type of
16     programming.  These also could be structured in a way
17     similar to that for Canadian content, for example,
18     giving people extra time credits for scheduling this
19     type of programming in peak viewing hours.  Also,
20     trade-offs could be made between certain types of
21     requirements in exchange for promoting more diverse
22     programming.
23  15217                Finally, we would also recommend that
24     specialty stations not be used as sort of a stop gap or
25     alternative to improvement in mainstream broadcasting. 


 1     We argue that the range of stations that have been
 2     improved in recent years is too narrow, and doesn't
 3     reflect the Canadian population.
 4  15218                Also, sort of ethnic or token
 5     broadcasters doesn't solve the problem either, because
 6     some of them don't have Canadian programming, and also
 7     some of them aren't in English.
 8  15219                So we would also like to make some
 9     comments with respect to question 65, whether the
10     Commission's policies dealing with other social
11     concerns are effective.  We would submit that the focus
12     on self-regulation and an individual complaint-driven
13     process appear ineffective to our community and to
14     other communities that they're aimed at protecting.
15  15220                First of all, the policies are not
16     well-known among the public, especially within
17     marginalised communities.  Until recently, visible
18     minority communities haven't had much input into how
19     these policies are designed or implemented.  Also, the
20     practises of hearings and limited availability of
21     documents do limit access to disadvantaged groups. 
22     Despite that, we are still here.
23  15221                Also, we would argue that the
24     self-regulation framework that exists is ineffective to
25     address these kinds of social concerns.  First of all,


 1     individual complaints tend to focus on very isolated
 2     incidents instead of looking at the broader, systemic
 3     situation whether people are represented or even
 4     present in broadcasting.
 5  15222                Secondly, because of the lack of
 6     resources in sort of public interest groups, only sort
 7     of impressionistic information is available to document
 8     these types of systemic problems, such as the lack of
 9     representation.
10  15223                Finally, employment equity
11     information is available under the Employment Equity
12     Act, but the CRTC doesn't seem to take any action on
13     this basis.  For example, in 1996, only 4.4 percent of
14     employees in the telecommunication broadcasting sector
15     were members of visible minorities and, as I've already
16     said, actually in the population, they make up 11
17     percent of the population.
18                                                        1648
19  15224                In particular, we noted that the CBC
20     and CTV received the lowest possible ranking on the
21     situation of visible minorities in their workplace. 
22     And especially for a public broadcaster, this seems
23     unacceptable.
24  15225                We have a few specific
25     recommendations.  Firstly, that the CRTC provide more


 1     outreach and education about its policies, especially
 2     to marginalized communities so that its processes and
 3     procedures can become more accessible to them.  Also
 4     accessibility should be promoted by funding these
 5     groups to attend hearings and also to make submissions.
 6  15226                Secondly, we argue that appointments
 7     to the CRTC should reflect the diversity of Canada.  We
 8     understand that appointments are made to ensure that
 9     there is linguistic and geographical representation and
10     we feel that it should also reflect the population of
11     the entire country.
12  15227                We also argue that the CRTC should be
13     more proactive in enforcing its policies.  Instead of
14     relying on individual complaints, there should be more
15     active monitoring for compliance and also action should
16     be taken.  For example, under the Employment Equity
17     Act.  This Act does provide for fines against all
18     employers who don`t meet its requirements to file
19     reports.  But the CRTC could take that one step further
20     by looking at broadcasters and linking this to
21     licensing or any other kind of sanction or reward.
22  15228                Finally, we would recommend that the
23     Commission establish a special task force aimed at
24     looking at racial representation and stereotapes in
25     television.  This could be done in a similar way to the


 1     previous Sex-Role Stereotyping Commission.  It should
 2     provide concrete policies and strategies in dealing
 3     with problems of representation and also consult with
 4     community groups like ours to provide some of our
 5     expertise in this area.
 6  15229                So those are our submissions and we
 7     would be happy to answer any questions.
 8  15230                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Pay
 9     and Mr. Ma.  Commissioner Cardozo.
10  15231                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks, Madam
11     Chair.  Thanks, Ms. Pay and Mr. Ma.  Thanks for coming
12     from Ottawa for this and, hopefully, by the end of the
13     session you will be convinced that it was worth your
14     trip and that you will come back again.  And, if you're
15     not, I hope you will let us know.
16  15232                Let me start first with the issue of
17     the task force that you mentioned in your last
18     recommendation and what I'm going to do is I've got a
19     few questions I would like to go through, based
20     primarily on your written submission, but I think we'll
21     cover most of the issues you have mentioned today.  If
22     we don't, feel free to add them in at any point.
23  15233                Now with regards to the task force,
24     maybe you can be a little more concrete in terms of
25     offering us a model which was the model we used in the


 1     Sex-Role Stereotyping Task Force some years back.
 2  15234                Do you have any suggestions as to who
 3     would be part of it or who we ought to be hearing from
 4     or involving in such a task force?
 5  15235                MS PAY:  You mean from the wider
 6     community or from the Commission?
 7  15236                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, I mean
 8     outside of the Commission, but who outside of the
 9     Commission ought to be a part of that process?
10  15237                MS PAY:  I think the consultation
11     should be as wide as possible, so groups like ourselves
12     that represent specific ethnic groups and have a
13     national base.  Also other equity-seeking groups.  So I
14     think ranging from other ethnic specific groups to
15     organizations that focus on race relations to also
16     other equity-seeking groups like gays and lesbians,
17     women who incorporate --
18  15238                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Would you see,
19     I'm thinking more of once you have covered the
20     equity-seeking groups, would you also look at having
21     the broadcasters and producers and the people that do
22     the stuff as part of that?
23  15239                MR. MA:  Definitely, because they are
24     the ones who have to implement -- well, we can look at
25     the reality of industry and to see what other current


 1     system right now and to what degree the things that we
 2     recommended by the task force can be implemented.
 3  15240                Another group that I think that would
 4     be very interesting is artists, film makers from the
 5     visible minority community.  In fact, this year we're
 6     going to prepare media awards and this is very timely. 
 7     We are inviting some of these film makers from our
 8     community to join us to tell us the kind of issues that
 9     they identify in media, in film and in television. 
10     Because we need to have people who can express the kind
11     of concerns and the kinds of issues from the point of
12     view of a visible minority.  And I think their input
13     will be also very important.
14  15241                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Lest I forget,
15     you mentioned several artists and producers from the
16     Chinese community.  Are we talking a lot of people? 
17     Are there a lot of people in the community who are
18     doing film production?
19  15242                MR. MA:  Not as many as the number
20     that we have should reflect, but I guess there's an
21     increasing number of young people who are interested in
22     media and film in this area, yes.
23  15243                MS PAY:  I just want to add, though,
24     that I think the number is not reflected in their
25     access to broadcasting.  Their work is not shown on


 1     television.
 2  15244                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The only one I
 3     am aware of, this is my ignorance showing, but I
 4     believe is Doris Lau who did "Under the Willow Tree"?
 5  15245                MR. MA:  Doris Nitt, yes.  I remember
 6     last year there's a film festival called "Reel Asian,"
 7     R-E-E-L.  There's about 30-some films in that film
 8     festival that was held in Toronto.
 9  15246                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And these are
10     films that were made in Canada.
11  15247                MR. MA:  Not all of them.  Actually,
12     that's the point I want to make.  Out of the 30-some
13     films, only six or seven are made in Canada.  The rest
14     have come from the States.  In fact, the States has
15     done a better job of having sort of an Asian-American
16     kind of film industry, mini-industry, I guess.
17  15248                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, in your
18     written brief, you also talked about anti-racism
19     training for reporters and media personnel.  Is that an
20     issue you would see looked at under such a task force?
21  15249                MS PAY:  That could be one of the
22     recommendations that would come out of it.  I think it
23     would look at both proactive things like that as well
24     as what the existing situation is.  But I know one of
25     the concerns might be where resources for that kind of


 1     work would be done and I think -- I don't know.  I
 2     think that broadcasters are given a public resource as
 3     a privilege and it is a profitable industry for them so
 4     they could be required to provide funding for that kind
 5     of thing.  So, definitely, I think that kind of work
 6     would be very important.
 7  15250                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay.  In
 8     terms of the funds in your written brief and today, you
 9     have talked about two things.  One is having a certain
10     amount set aside for diversity programming and the
11     other was auditing the fund to see how much they spent
12     on diversity programming.  There are a couple of things
13     here that come to mind.  One is funding that would go
14     to minority producers to, in quotes, tell their stories
15     as with other producers.  And "Under the Willow Tree"
16     comes to mind as a story of, I think it was five or six
17     Chinese Canadian women over something like a century.
18  15251                The other side of it is funding to
19     the programs that we do see on television now and
20     seeing that they reflect a diversity in their make-up. 
21     We had somebody here from YTV a few days ago and we
22     asked them about how they did it and their answer was
23     simply that when they see their cast, they make sure
24     that there is a cross section of kids in the cast.
25  15252                So what you have got, whatever that


 1     type of programming they are doing, they are making
 2     sure that the actors reflect a diversity.
 3  15253                So those are two different kinds of
 4     things.  If you set aside 11 per cent or some
 5     percentage, then are you saying that it's only these
 6     people who get funding from that 11 per cent who are
 7     minority producers should reflect diversity and the
 8     other should not?  Or is it better to leave that amount
 9     loose but focus more on the reflection and more
10     programming?
11  15254                MS PAY:  I would argue that the
12     approach of providing funding to the producers who are
13     from diverse communities might be more effective.  I'm
14     not sure how YTV's approach works, but I think
15     sometimes that can result in sort of a token-istic
16     situation where people are sort of stuck in to make
17     sure -- I mean I think it's a good approach to have
18     representation but people have to be there behind the
19     scenes because they are the ones who are telling the
20     story.  You can't just sort of slot in a Chinese
21     Canadian and then say, well, they are represented.  I
22     think there has to be equal sort of input behind the
23     scenes.  I think one of the ways to ensure that is to
24     provide it to the producers.
25                                                        1507


 1  15255                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So if you had
 2     a production team, let's say YTV just as an example,
 3     would you want the producer to be a visible minority or
 4     would you want them to include in their production
 5     theme whether in the leading role or not visible
 6     minorities?
 7  15256                MS PAY:  I guess the main thing would
 8     be --
 9  15257                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If you haven't
10     given this full thought, feel free to say so.  I'm just
11     throwing these out as ideas that one would have to
12     think through.
13  15258                MS PAY:  It could get very
14     complicated in who should get this funding.  I can see
15     the potential problems, but I guess the main points
16     would be that people who have some kind of creative
17     input, whether they're a writer or producer, director,
18     anybody who is involved in the making of it, to be the
19     ones who say what the story is, to tell the story.  So
20     I think there would have to be a substantial
21     contribution there but I don't know how.  It would be
22     relatively complicated to set out the rules for that. 
23     I can see the problem.
24  15259                MR. MA:  I guess what I would like to
25     add is I guess the funding for producers and film


 1     makers and artists from visible minority communities to
 2     tell their own story is a good way to help them start
 3     it.  Because if there is no such support, they don't
 4     even have any access to participating in the film or
 5     the media industry.  So once they have that kind of
 6     experience, once they gain that expertise, then I think
 7     that they should be part of the regular programming
 8     that I guess YTV was talking about.  But we just worry
 9     that if we start out with a very few people in the
10     industry and then suddenly now one-half representation
11     and we stop plugging people into the slot because they
12     want to fill their quota, then the people won't have
13     the skills, won't have that kind of expertise that they
14     can be able to integrate in the industry easily.  I
15     think that the idea of having some kind of a
16     programming that caters to them would help them gain an
17     expertise and eventually they can just integrate into
18     the industry.
19  15260                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, let me
20     move to employment equity.  The situation now is since
21     the -- I guess the original Act of 1986 was relatively
22     vague as to who had responsibility for implementing
23     employment equity.  But the more recent Act of, I think
24     it's '95, was more clear and so the Human Rights
25     Commission had the responsibility for monitoring


 1     employment equity.
 2  15261                As a result of it, the CRTC's role in
 3     implementing employment equity has been reduced to
 4     those who don't come under the Act; namely, employers
 5     with a hundred employees or less.
 6  15262                In light of that, what's your
 7     comments about what we should be doing about employment
 8     equity?
 9  15263                MS PAY:  One example of something you
10     could do I guess without stepping into the jurisdiction
11     of the Human Rights Commission is to provide an
12     incentive-type program so that broadcasters who do show
13     improvement in that area, for example, could have
14     somewhat relaxed regulation, sort of regulatory
15     requirements in other areas.  So instead of having kind
16     of a punitive system where you're monitoring and
17     punishing the people, providing incentives would be one
18     way.
19  15264                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  In terms of
20     the employers that we cover, those with a hundred
21     employees and less, what kind of information are you
22     interested in having?  Or do you think we should be
23     looking at?
24  15265                MS PAY:  I think the type of
25     information covered by the Employment Equity Act was


 1     quite interesting but I think more detail would be even
 2     more helpful.
 3  15266                How they looked at the broadcasters
 4     who they do cover, they merely provided sort of
 5     rankings from A to B or C and whether the broadcasters
 6     had improved in the numbers and where those people are. 
 7     So it's quite vague and they are the ones who determine
 8     the grading system.
 9  15267                So I think it would be interesting
10     for us as a community group to see the specific detail
11     on how many people are actually working there and
12     actually the breakdown as well.
13  15268                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay, the
14     rankings you mentioned, those are the rankings provided
15     by --
16  15269                MS PAY:  It's in the Annual Report
17     from Human Resources and Development.
18  15270                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Okay. Now on
19     the reflection of Chinese Canadians, you mentioned the
20     numbers and that's very helpful.  I was going to ask
21     you about that.  But, for the record, what's your sense
22     of the range of professions that Chinese Canadians are
23     involved in?
24  15271                MS PAY:  In the media or in the wider
25     Canadian --


 1  15272                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  In life.
 2  15273                MS PAY:  There is an over
 3     concentration of Chinese Canadians in certain sectors,
 4     like services and fewer in senior management roles. 
 5     But it's not a huge gap and there is wide diversity
 6     within the Chinese Canadian community.  So, for
 7     example, the fact that they aren't shown as sort of
 8     experts on the news in any kind of field, people are
 9     there.  They exist and they could be found but I don't
10     think an effort is made to find them because the people
11     looking don't think, well, let's look for a Chinese
12     Canadian person.  They just look for somebody who looks
13     like themselves, right?
14  15274                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Well, I have,
15     though, in the past while noticed a few more as experts
16     in the business news on Newsworld.  Have you noticed
17     that too?  People who are being interviewed a financial
18     market experts?
19  15275                MS PAY:  Maybe that's because one of
20     the hosts is an East Asian woman, I don't know.
21  15276                MR. MA:  Maybe that's also
22     stereotypes of how East Asians in recent years that
23     they are good in business so they are more slotted into
24     that kind of topics they would be interviewed, but not
25     on other topics.


 1  15277                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That's a step
 2     up from the stereotype of being the drug dealer.
 3  15278                MR. MA:  There is not totally, I
 4     guess, positive, even though, yes, compared to a drug
 5     dealer, but we can be seen as ruthless and being very
 6     not caring and being very exploitive.  That's another
 7     kind of stereotype that can be also very negative.
 8  15279                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The ones I
 9     recall in the last few months or the last year were
10     just people talking about financial markets.  In some
11     cases, again, it was probably because they were talking
12     about the crashing Asian markets.  But I think the
13     things that we are talking about are the financial
14     issues as well and they provide us as good television
15     watching as anybody us.
16  15280                But that brings me to the next
17     question which is a reflection in some of the dramatic
18     series that we see, and we see in "Traders" yesterday
19     won I think, at least for the second time, the best
20     dramatic series Gemini, and my sense of the financial
21     markets, given the stereotype, is that there are a
22     number of Asian Canadians in the financial markets but
23     not reflected on something like "Traders," or am I
24     wrong?  Are there any Asian characters in "Traders"?
25  15281                MS PAY:  I'm afraid I'm not able to


 1     answer that question.
 2  15282                MR. MA:  I've seen it maybe once or
 3     twice.  I haven't seen any Asian characters.
 4  15283                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Are there any
 5     Asian characters in any of the dramatic series that
 6     you're aware of?
 7  15284                MR. MA:  I think "Degrassi High," I
 8     think that one had some.
 9  15285                MS PAY:  I told you about "Twitch
10     City" which had the drug dealer.  There aren't many.  I
11     mean that's the problem.  There just aren't that many.
12  15286                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And are there
13     actors ready to go into those roles?
14  15287                MR. MA:  There are an increasing
15     number of actors and actresses who are ready.
16  15288                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I just want to
17     touch briefly on the issue of multilingual
18     broadcasting.  For your information, we look at a whole
19     bunch of different issues as time goes on and we try to
20     keep each set of issues separately, partly so one can
21     deal with them but partly because the record is a
22     public record and everything that's said about that
23     topic has to be said within that record so that
24     everybody can have access to what is said.
25  15289                I will come back to the issue of


 1     access to documents in a couple of minutes but what
 2     we've done is the issue of multilingual television,
 3     which was often called the ethnic broadcasting policy,
 4     TV and radio, is subject to a separate review over the
 5     next several months.  What we're looking at in this
 6     review, quite centrally, as we've noted in the -- not
 7     very centrally, a number of issues, but clearly one of
 8     the issues is the reflection of diversity in English
 9     and French broadcasting.  Do you see that separation of
10     the two issues?  Do you have any thoughts on that?  Is
11     that a fair way to look at the two things?
12  15290                MR. MA:  I'm afraid I don't quite
13     understand what you mean.  Are you talking about the
14     ethnic channels?
15  15291                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  No, the ethnic
16     channels and the multilingual television and radio
17     essentially will come under a separate review.  So
18     we're not talking about that today.
19  15292                MR. MA:  Today, okay.
20  15293                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And in this
21     proceeding what we're looking at is more the stuff you
22     have been talking about, which is a reflection of
23     diversity within the English and French networks.  Is
24     that dichotomy clear and is that a fair one to make?
25  15294                MS PAY:  Well, I suppose it is


 1     because the English and French are the mainstream
 2     broadcasters.  So I think the other languages are seen
 3     as inherently more diverse.  So, for our purposes, it
 4     seems a valid distinction.
 5  15295                But we also have done work in terms
 6     of the ethnic broadcasters within our community because
 7     I think just because they are from a minority group
 8     doesn't mean they're perfect on issues of diversity
 9     themselves.
10  15296                So I think when you're looking at the
11     ethnic broadcasters, it would be interesting to also
12     look at questions of diversity and not just ethnic
13     diversity but things around gay and lesbian issues or
14     disability issues, that kind of thing, would be another
15     level to look at.
16  15297                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Gender issues?
17  15298                MS PAY:  Gender, yes.
18  15299                MR. MA:  And also Canadian content,
19     because I remember the CCNC some years ago made an
20     intervention on the license of a Chinese station on the
21     issues that there was not enough programming on
22     Canadian issues and content, because a lot of the
23     programs were imported from Asia and not reflecting the
24     fact that people living here now and they should be
25     more concerned about what's going on around them.


 1                                                        1715
 2  15300                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Hold that
 3     thought and we will come back to it.
 4  15301                MR. MA:  But I think the idea of
 5     separating the two is fair enough because I can see
 6     that because the ethnic broadcasting and the
 7     multilingual channel cater more to the first generation
 8     and the mainstream English-French channels cater to the
 9     second generation, which they see themselves -- this is
10     the channel they watch and these are the issues they
11     are concerned about.  So, it is not the ethnic channel
12     that they watch.
13  15302                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  These are the
14     CBCs?
15  15303                MR. MA:  Right.
16  15304                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  For the
17     information of my colleagues that's "Canadian Born
18     Chinese," the other CBCs.
19  15305                Let me mention a few other things. 
20     The one thing I will add that you have added to date to
21     our look at this issue is the nuance of the role of
22     minority producers in the English and French-language
23     broadcasting system, so I thank you for that.
24  15306                In terms of access to documents, a
25     couple of things to note.  We have as early as of a


 1     couple of months ago a documentation centre in Toronto
 2     which is at the office of Commissioner Wilson who is
 3     the Ontario Regional Commissioner, so make sure you get
 4     around to that and there may be more such things,
 5     depending on the success of that.
 6  15307                In terms of outreach, in this process
 7     we had hearings.  We had roundtables in a number of
 8     cities in the month of June.  In our notice it is noted
 9     that people who wanted to appear and who wanted to
10     participate in this hearing but were not able to come
11     here we could hear them by telephone conference call. 
12     I don't know if you knew that.  You probably could have
13     saved a bundle of dough, but are those sorts of things
14     helpful in terms of reaching out to people?
15  15308                We have a website too.  I don't know
16     if you have visited the website.
17  15309                MS PAY:  I think it is helpful, but I
18     think just common sense says that when you have a
19     person face-to-face and you are able to talk to them I
20     think it would have more impact.  I don't know, I would
21     argue still for some kind of subsidy or provision of
22     funding for non-profit groups to be able to personally
23     attend the hearings.
24  15310                COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.
25  15311                Under that we haven't done that kind


 1     of funding in the past.  We operate under two Acts of
 2     Parliament.  One is the Telecommunications Act and one
 3     is the Broadcasting.
 4  15312                Under the Telecommunications Act
 5     there is a process where costs can be awarded to
 6     certain not for profit parties, which are awarded
 7     against the other participants.  In fact, the corporate
 8     participants pay.
 9  15313                We don't have that ability under the
10     Broadcasting Act, which is why the issue has been
11     raised by a few other participants, which is why we
12     haven't been able to do it here.  I just want to let
13     you know about that.  On that issue and on the
14     appointments issue it's a political issue, so talk to
15     them about those issues.
16  15314                Those cover my comments and
17     questions.  Thank you, Madam Chair.
18  15315                THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
19     Wilson.
20  15316                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  I have really a
21     quick comments and that is I want to thank you for your
22     input.  I expect that we will see you and please feel
23     free to drop by the Toronto office.
24  15317                I don't know if this is any
25     consolation to you, but being someone who has been


 1     actively involved in social issues probably earlier on
 2     in my career, it is nice -- I don't know if it is nice
 3     for you to know this, but the Commission is currently
 4     dominated by women, so that's an improvement.
 5  15318                I would have to say that the male
 6     colleagues on the Commission are very liberated, all of
 7     them.
 8  15319                As I said, I don't know if that is
 9     any consolation, but it certainly made me happy.
10  15320                MR. MA:  Maybe one day if there is a
11     task force on sex role it would be helpful and that's
12     what I am hoping, that there is a task force on,
13     visible minority representation.
14  15321                COMMISSIONER WILSON:  Somebody was
15     listening obviously.
16  15322                THE CHAIRPERSON:  This will give
17     women, both mainstream and minority women, two chances
18     to get better representation, since they presumably
19     will be 51 per cent of the concerns of a task force on
20     racial stereotyping, if we had such a task force.
21  15323                We thank you, Ms Pay and Mr. Ma. 
22     Have a good trip back to Toronto.
23  15324                MS PAY:  Thank you.
24  15325                MR. MA:  Thank you.
25  15326                THE CHAIRPERSON:  This will conclude


 1     today's presentations.  We are not sitting tomorrow. 
 2     We will resume at nine o'clock on Wednesday morning.
 3  15327                Ceci termine la journée.  Nous ne
 4     siégeons pas demain.  Nous reprendrons donc à 9 h 00
 5     mercredi matin.  Bonsoir.
 6     --- L'audience est ajournée à 1725, pour reprendre
 7         le mercredi 7 octobre, à 0900 / Whereupon
 8         the hearing adjourned at 1725, to resume on
 9         Wednesday, October 7, 1998, at 0900
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