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                       SUBJECT / SUJET:


HELD AT:                               TENUE À:

Conference Centre                      Centre des conférences
Outaouais Room                         Salle Outaouais
Place du Portage                       Place du Portage
Phase IV                               Phase IV
Hull, Quebec                           Hull (Québec)

November 13, 1998                      13 novembre 1998

tel: 613-521-0703          StenoTran        fax: 613-521-7668
                           Volume  2



Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.


                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

              Applications for Broadcast Licences
           Requêtes pour licences de radiodiffusion


Andrée Wylie                           Chairperson / Présidente
                                       Vice-Chairperson, Radio-
                                       television / Vice-
                                       présidente, Radiodiffusion
Joan Pennefather                       Commissioner / Conseillère
Andrew Cardozo                         Commissioner / Conseiller


Geoff Batstone                         Commission Counsel /
                                       Avocat du Conseil
Dylan Jones                            Policy Co-ordinator (BSSI)
Morag York                             Policy Co-ordinator (TVNC)
Mike Burnside                          Hearing Manager / Gérant
Diane Santerre                         Secretary / Secrétaire

HELD AT:                               TENUE À:

Conference Centre                      Centre des conférences
Outaouais Room                         Salle Outaouais
Place du Portage                       Place du Portage
Phase IV                               Phase IV
Hull, Quebec                           Hull (Québec)

November 13, 1998                      13 novembre 1998

                           Volume  2



Presentation by / Présentation par:

Television Northern Canada Incorporated                    379
(Continuation / Suite)

Assembly of First Nations                                  506

Christina Keeper                                           522

Silver Birches Senior School                               539

Government of the Northwest Territories, Education,        556
Culture & Employment

Inuit Tapirisat of Canada                                  565

Mr. Ted Montour                                            573

Canadian Cable Television Association /                    589
Association canadienne de télévision par câble

Friends of Canadian Broadcasting                           652

Brenco Media Limited                                       668

Centre for Research-Action on Race Relations /             684
Centre de recherche-action sur les relations 

Mr. Clarence Michon, Mr. Adam Beach and                    700
Mr. Joseph Driver

CanWest Global Communications Corporation                  725

Rosemarie Kuptana & Company                                735

Canadian Conference of the Arts / Conférence               747
canadienne des Arts and Canadian Screen Training 
Centre / Réseau d'ateliers cinématographiques 

WETV Development Corporation                               758

Communications & Diversity Network                         778




Reply by / Réplique par:

Television Northern Canada Incorporated                    792



 1                               Hull, Quebec / Hull (Québec)
 2     --- Upon resuming on Friday, November 13, 1998
 3         at 0900 / L'audience reprend le vendredi,
 4         13 novembre 1998, à 0900
 5  1859                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning, Mr.
 6     Tagalik and colleagues.
 7  1860                 I would like to advise participants
 8     that there is a revised list and order of appearance
 9     for intervenors which is available at the back table
10     and probably in the examination room.  Obviously, you
11     can ask Madam Secretary if you would like to have a
12     look at it.
13  1861                 Madam Secretary, would you please
14     invite the participants to continue.
15  1862                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
16     We will proceed with the questioning of the applicant,
17     TVNC.
18  1863                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
19     PRESENTATION, Continued / PRÉSENTATION, suite
20  1864                 Commissioner Cardozo ...
21  1865                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
22     Madam Chair.
23  1866                 Good morning.  Welcome back.  I will
24     carry on with some questions on the programming segment
25     before my colleagues move on to some of the other


 1     areas.
 2  1867                 Let me pick up on a couple of things
 3     that we talked about yesterday.  Looking at the
 4     schedule, I have a couple of more questions.
 5  1868                 I meant to ask this question
 6     yesterday.  What is this program about:  "The Absolute
 7     Truth...About Aboriginal Women"?  That is an
 8     interesting name for a program.
 9  1869                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  That particular
10     series is a talk show, consisting of four aboriginal
11     women from all walks of life, discussing aboriginal
12     issues.  It is a one-hour talk show.
13  1870                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And would
14     those be the same four people?  Are they the same four
15     hosts?
16  1871                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  From what I gather
17     from the proposal, it will be the same four women.
18  1872                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And
19     "Aboriginal Justice"?
20  1873                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  It is from the
21     Aboriginal Justice Learning Network.  The producer is
22     Rod Carleton.  It will be on aboriginal justice and the
23     way the court is done in the north, through
24     participating with the youth and the elders for
25     healing.


 1  1874                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And "The
 2     Spirit of Denendeh"?
 3  1875                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  That is an NNBAP
 4     member, the Native Communications Society.  It is
 5     produced out of Yellowknife and it is for the Dene
 6     region -- the Dene people.
 7  1876                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The two
 8     programs, that is, the Australian program and the
 9     Native American program on Friday at 1500, what are
10     those about?
11  1877                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  The Australian
12     program is dealing with issues -- like a historical
13     look, back from the 1800s to mid -- I think it was the
14     1950s, with the "Black Man's War".  It is an hour in
15     length and it will be in English.
16  1878                 The "Waka Huia" from New Zealand is
17     also an hour long.  It is a series on the tribal
18     history of the Maori.  It will be in the Maori
19     language, but with English subtitles.
20  1879                 As for the other foreign content with
21     U.S. programming, we have the "Aubenocheeyug", which is
22     a children's program that will be in the language.
23  1880                 And "Heartbeat Alaska", which we
24     currently have on the TVNC schedule, is produced by
25     Jeannie Green.  It starts off with a few minutes of


 1     news and then goes into current events and what is
 2     happening in Anchorage or the Alaska area.
 3  1881                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So those are
 4     the foreign programs essentially?
 5  1882                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  Yes, they are.  On
 6     the schedule there are 4.5 hours per week of foreign
 7     content.
 8  1883                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Would you be
 9     looking at other indigenous peoples as well?
10  1884                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  Most definitely.
11  1885                 From the research that was done to
12     assist us in putting this schedule together, we just
13     wanted to get a feel for what was out there in terms of
14     foreign content, and there is a lot of programming.  So
15     it would cover -- the 4.5 hours per week would be a
16     complete mixture of various indigenous peoples.
17  1886                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  The Canadian
18     content figure that you have given, which is 90 per
19     cent, the other 10 per cent or so are precisely these
20     programs, are they?
21  1887                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  The foreign content,
22     with the 4.5 hours, is 3.5 per cent.  So we definitely
23     exceed the 90 per cent Canadian content.
24  1888                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So you are not
25     looking at "Seinfeld" and "Jerry Springer" and stuff


 1     like that to fill up your foreign content?
 2  1889                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  No, we aren't.  The
 3     programs that we have will be almost all original
 4     programming.  So there is nothing that we will be
 5     pulling from the shelf.  It is new material.
 6  1890                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I have a
 7     question from yesterday regarding languages.
 8  1891                 We talked about English services,
 9     French services and other aboriginal languages.  What
10     you were telling us was that -- I think it was about 84
11     out of 125 hours are English?  Is that right?
12  1892                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  Eighty-four of the
13     121.5.
14  1893                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Then you have
15     7.5 French --
16  1894                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  That's right.
17  1895                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- and the
18     remaining are aboriginal.
19  1896                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  Thirty hours are
20     aboriginal.
21  1897                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I look at
22     that, and the 84 English is there, as I understand it,
23     for two reasons.  One is that it is the language other
24     than aboriginal languages that most aboriginal people
25     speak, although those in Quebec, as Madam Obomsawin


 1     told us yesterday, also speak French, or that is their
 2     first or second language, especially the people in
 3     Quebec.
 4  1898                 We were talking about issues of
 5     language recovery and the popularity of programs in
 6     various aboriginal languages.
 7  1899                 The other importance of having the
 8     English was to be able to communicate with non-
 9     aboriginal English-speaking people.  So there is quite
10     a conundrum here.  There is a squeeze of only so many
11     hours, and probably more demand for all of the
12     languages:  English, the aboriginal languages and
13     French.
14  1900                 My question is:  Do you see that
15     breakdown changing over time where you may need to
16     increase the French and the aboriginal languages and
17     reduce the English, given that one can't really find
18     more hours in the day?  At 121.5, you are about 16 or
19     17 hours a day, which is about as much as people are
20     going to watch.
21  1901                 MS O'SHAUNESSY:  From the proposals
22     that I received, the majority of them were in the
23     English language.  But what we will be doing, over
24     time --
25  1902                 We did get many proposals and this is


 1     just a sample schedule.  We will get hundreds and
 2     hundreds more proposals and the program director can
 3     then make sure there is a balance with the languages.
 4  1903                 With the aboriginal languages, we
 5     will look at increasing them.
 6  1904                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes, but what
 7     you are talking about more is the supply aspect of it;
 8     the proposals for programs.  The other aspect is their
 9     demand, and my sense of it is that there is quite a
10     demand for aboriginal languages -- more aboriginal
11     language programming than you have here.
12  1905                 Is that a fair assumption?  Or would
13     you not know that yet?
14  1906                 MR. FARMER:  I believe it was pointed
15     out yesterday that aboriginal languages are on the
16     upswing.  The situation that is occurring is that many
17     of our youth are speaking the languages in southern
18     communities where the adults have yet to actually be as
19     fluent in the language as the youth.  So as our
20     generations become older we will see a regeneration of
21     language beginning to come to the forefront, and
22     certainly television will be affected by that.
23  1907                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think it will also
24     depend -- I know it will depend on viewer feedback.
25  1908                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I'm sorry?


 1  1909                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Viewer feedback on
 2     what works and what doesn't work and how many requests
 3     we get for different types of language programming.
 4  1910                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  If I may add to that,
 5     in the research we conducted focus groups both in rural
 6     aboriginal communities and in urban, and the issue of
 7     language was discussed.  While it was certainly of
 8     interest to both further their understanding of their
 9     own language and hear stories in their language, the
10     key was to see themselves and their stories told.
11  1911                 There was a concern, actually, that
12     if it was too much in the individual languages that a
13     lot of this oral tradition of sharing would be lost
14     because the youth did not speak their own language. 
15     They really relied on English.
16  1912                 So it was important to them to not
17     have too much of the individual languages on the
18     schedule.
19  1913                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So the oral
20     tradition could be maintained through English.
21  1914                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.  That was the
22     very strong message we got through the research.
23  1915                 MR. FARMER:  We look at English as an
24     aboriginal language, as well as French.
25                                                        0910


 1  1916                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Mr. Farmer,
 2     this is just for my personal interest.
 3  1917                 What you seem to be saying, if I hear
 4     you right and add my own thought to it, is that
 5     aboriginal languages are probably maintained among
 6     elders, and it's this middle group of middle-aged
 7     people who have lost the language because of cultural
 8     assimilation and what else, and it's the younger
 9     generation who are increasing their interest in
10     aboriginal languages?
11  1918                 MR. FARMER:  In the last five, ten
12     years, this is the first time that we've seen immersion
13     education, which means in my community total immersion
14     exists where students are growing up with the Cayuga
15     language.
16  1919                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And that
17     hasn't existed in the recent past?
18  1920                 MR. FARMER:  Never before in the
19     context of education.
20  1921                 So we're going to see some trends and
21     change.  You can see it in the community radio where
22     language is becoming more predominant.  You can see it
23     on the signs even more in stores and on placemats for
24     restaurants and such, where language is used far more
25     frequently than it was ten years ago.


 1  1922                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Let me ask
 2     about closed captioning.
 3  1923                 MS MacDONALD:  I just wanted to add
 4     something.  With the Haa Shagoon on the programming
 5     here, just to give you an example of how the aboriginal
 6     languages work in the north, Haa Shagoon is done in
 7     aboriginal languages.  In the Yukon there are eight
 8     aboriginal languages that are used.  Within that time
 9     period, it may be that one language will be used, like
10     Tlingit language, and then the next show it may be
11     another southern Tutchone language or even within that
12     time block they might do three different interviews
13     with elders and three different languages will be used.
14  1924                 The main thing here, as we mentioned
15     yesterday, is that our versioning is very important,
16     that we have to subtitle.  Hearing the language is very
17     important, but also to communicate we need to subtitle
18     in versions so that English people will be able to
19     understand.  The language component is very important
20     to aboriginal people.  It is the basis of our culture. 
21     What Mr. Farmer has said is correct, with the
22     demographics of the people that are speaking the
23     language, but it's very important for us to have
24     aboriginal languages.
25  1925                 You'll see most of the northern shows


 1     that are on the schedule here, they do produce in
 2     aboriginal languages already.
 3  1926                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  For example,
 4     one of the programs that we talked about yesterday at
 5     11:30 on Monday, Labradorimiut was going to be in
 6     English and Inuktituk.  Is that where you would have
 7     English subtitles when people are talking Inuktituk. 
 8     Is that the kind of thing?
 9  1927                 MS O'SHAUGHNESSY:  It alternates. 
10     The way it is on TVNC right now it alternates.  One
11     week it's in English, the next week it would be in
12     Inuktituk.
13  1928                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And the
14     subtitling would be in the other language?
15  1929                 MS O'SHAUGHNESSY:  On APTN?
16  1930                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Yes.
17  1931                 MS O'SHAUGHNESSY:  That's right.
18  1932                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So, if it's
19     Inuktituk, subtitling would be in English?
20  1933                 MS O'SHAUGHNESSY:  But it wouldn't be
21     for all shows.
22  1934                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I want to move
23     to closed captioning.  We've had a policy for some time
24     which allows for and encourages closed captioning for
25     the deaf and hard of hearing.


 1  1935                 What we've expected is that over the
 2     course of a licence or by the end of a licence period
 3     that broadcasters would have up to 90 per cent of their
 4     programming in general closed captioned and 100 per
 5     cent of news.  Your streams of revenue are comparable
 6     to other of these specialties that have the same kind
 7     of expectation and being on basic, as you are
 8     requesting, perhaps one would say that you have the
 9     same obligations.
10  1936                 So, what I want to find out about is
11     what your targets are with regards to closed
12     captioning.  I didn't notice the item specifically
13     noted in your expenditures.
14  1937                 MR. TOURIGNY:  The other specialties
15     use a lot of shelf product, both foreign and domestic,
16     which were originally produced with closed captioning
17     embedded in the programs.  So, it cost them nothing.
18  1938                 The bulk of our programs are all
19     original; they're new, yet to be produced.  We have all
20     these submissions and, ultimately, we'll have to decide
21     which ones are a go.  Presumably, programs produced
22     through Telefilm will receive assistance for closed
23     captioning.  Any drama or children's programming
24     through Telefilm would end up with closed captions. 
25     So, that's not in our budget.  That's in the budget of


 1     the producer to work out with Telefilm.
 2  1939                 The only in-house production we do is
 3     our daily news program and the daily phone-in show.  We
 4     haven't budgeted for doing closed captions in our news
 5     programming.  We have budgeted $500,000 a year for
 6     versioning so as to make the aboriginal language
 7     programming more accessible to a broader audience.
 8  1940                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Which is more
 9     open captioned?
10  1941                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It would be open
11     captioned, right.
12  1942                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Are there
13     competing demands on closed captioning?  The only one I
14     can think of is subtitling.  When you have subtitling,
15     you're using a certain amount of space on the screen. 
16     Is that a major impediment to closed captioning?
17  1943                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I'm sorry, I don't
18     understand the nature of your question.
19  1944                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If you've got
20     subtitling taking up a certain amount of space on the
21     screen, does that make it more difficult to do closed
22     captioning?
23  1945                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It would be pointless
24     to do closed captioning if you've got open captioning
25     because the subtitling is just like open captioning.


 1  1946                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So then, in a
 2     sense, you've got captioning where you've got
 3     subtitling?
 4  1947                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's right.
 5  1948                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Then for the
 6     rest of your programming where you don't have
 7     subtitling, you don't have a competing demand for that
 8     space.  So you could have subtitling there?
 9  1949                 MR. TOURIGNY:  You could have closed
10     captioning.
11  1950                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Sorry, closed
12     captioning.
13  1951                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes, closed
14     captioning.  That's not competing for the same space
15     because the closed captioning is embedded in line 21 on
16     the vertical blanking interval, whereas the open
17     captions are embedded in the video portion of the
18     signal.
19  1952                 As I said, the only in-house
20     programming we do is our news and public affairs. 
21     There may be, at some point into the licence term,
22     where we could acquire the software to provide closed
23     captions for the news program.  I understand most news
24     rooms do that and the cost of the equipment has come
25     down.  It's like a teleprompter feed.  They take it off


 1     of that and put it in and the software provides the
 2     closed captioning.
 3  1953                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So what you're
 4     saying there may be the possibility to do it.  What I
 5     want to ask you is:  Would you accept a condition of
 6     licence or a requirement or an expectation that you
 7     would meet these sorts of targets of 90 per cent of
 8     closed captioning by the end of your licence period?
 9  1954                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's 90 per cent
10     overall.  I think we could look at doing 100 per cent
11     of our news by the end of the licence term.  We would
12     commit to get the software and we would probably
13     institute that before the final year, I think probably
14     by year five.  It might be a million and a half dollars
15     to get something set up to do that.  I don't know what
16     the costs are.  I know the costs have been coming down. 
17     It might be considerably less.  I haven't been really
18     in touch with the cost factor on that.
19  1955                 The rest of the programming is really
20     a function of the independent producer and where they
21     shop around to get their money and whether there's a
22     budget in there for closed captioning.  Maybe Roman
23     could speak to that for a moment.
24  1956                 MR. BITTMAN:  Almost all of the
25     independently-produced programming that has a component


 1     of provincial or federal monies or a broadcaster has a
 2     requirement of the closed captioning to be embedded in
 3     the program before it's delivered.
 4  1957                 So, a good portion of the independent
 5     production would have that in it.  So, that would
 6     assist in this direction.
 7  1958                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What you're
 8     saying is you probably wouldn't have a hard time
 9     getting to 90 per cent by the end of your licence term,
10     if not earlier?
11  1959                 MR. BITTMAN:  I can't say for sure,
12     but that would be my inclination to believe that would
13     be the case, yes.
14  1960                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I just want to
15     repeat, from our perspective, this is a policy that we
16     take quite seriously.  You're asking for basic carriage
17     and a certain licence fee that would grant you a
18     certain revenue stream, and that revenue stream puts
19     you in the range of other broadcasters.  So, you could
20     see that it wouldn't be an unreasonable demand.
21  1961                 MR. TOURIGNY:  He was talking about
22     the independent producers.  We also have to look at the
23     NNBAP members who produce 30 per cent of the
24     programming on the schedule.  They've been cut back
25     considerably.  I don't know that IBC, particularly if


 1     it's live programming, can be closed captioned.  Maybe
 2     on their children's series, which is partially funded
 3     through Telefilm, they probably could.
 4  1962                 But on a day-to-day basis, the
 5     programming coming out of OkalaKatiget, Labrador is a
 6     very small communication society which is trying to do
 7     radio, television and a newspaper.  They're really
 8     stretched to the limit.  To ask OkalaKatiget to provide
 9     their programming with closed captions embedded in it I
10     think is unreasonable.
11  1963                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  They've got
12     the cutbacks but you've got the budget.
13                                                        0920
14  1964                 MR. TAGALIK:  But we didn't put, you
15     know, closed captioning as an option when we looked at
16     the costs associated with doing programming.  And if
17     you are doing a program in an Aboriginal language, your
18     funds are geared towards that.  And if you try and do
19     it so that the English script is good enough to be
20     closed captioned, I think is, especially for the NNBAP
21     members is a weight that I don't know that they could
22     bear.
23  1965                 MR. TOURIGNY:  On the other hand, I
24     guess we can recognize that there has to be symmetry in
25     the system.  And when you licence people and there is a


 1     common expectation throughout the broadcasting system
 2     that these objectives should be met, we feel that there
 3     is a responsibility there.  If it means we have to
 4     divert more of APTN's finances to the NNBAP members to
 5     help them do whatever is necessary to do the closed
 6     captioning -- see, a lot of these --
 7  1966                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  Could I ask
 8     you -- I will move on to the next question, then, maybe
 9     I could just ask you to give this some consideration
10     between now and your reply at the end of the day and if
11     you have got any more specific position on that you can
12     let us know.
13  1967                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think we would like
14     to consult our NNBAP members.  I do not think there is
15     a problem outside of that programming, but I think
16     there could be a problem inside the programming.
17  1968                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  But if you
18     could give us as specific a comment as you can in your
19     replies, I think that would be helpful.
20  1969                 Let me lastly just ask you about
21     productions.  Mr. Tagalik and Mr. Tourigny, during the
22     TV policy hearings a few weeks ago you appeared then
23     and spoke about the reflection of Aboriginal peoples in
24     other programming beyond APTN.
25  1970                 Do you see an avenue for


 1     co-productions in shared windows once you get going, or
 2     from what you are doing already with TVNC, whereby some
 3     of the other broadcasters and you would do
 4     co-productions and share windows?
 5  1971                 MR. TAGALIK:  Yes, by all means.  I
 6     think we look at the mainstream media today, a lot of
 7     that programming for Aboriginal people is not produced
 8     by Aboriginal people.  And I think, you know, we would
 9     certainly encourage the whole Aboriginal television and
10     film industry to, you know, really jump-start them in
11     this area.  And, you know, I think anywhere we can get
12     help for Aboriginal producers is a bonus for the whole
13     community.  So I do not see that being a problem or,
14     you know, we certainly would be open.
15  1972                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I will just give my
16     comment and then maybe Roman can expand on it.  I think
17     the economics of producing high quality programming
18     pretty much warrants that you have got several equity
19     players in there.  APTN is not planning on taking
20     equity positions, we are just planning on a licence
21     fee.  But Roman is an independent producer and I have
22     been speaking with Catalyst Entertainment, the producer
23     of "Tales from the Longhouse", which is a very high
24     budget animation live action puppet combination where
25     they take a lot of these mythical characters in


 1     Aboriginal history and culture and provide a very high
 2     quality production.
 3  1973                 They have got -- maybe Roman can get
 4     into this a little bit more because he has been
 5     speaking to them, too.  But they are looking at TV
 6     Ontario, CBC, us, France as a co-producer.  But APTN
 7     would not be a co-producer but Catalyst Entertainment
 8     is getting all these other partners together and
 9     spreading the cost over several broadcast windows.
10  1974                 MR. BITTMAN:  In the couple of
11     productions that I have been working on, first and
12     second windows between two broadcasters are very
13     common.  In terms of co-production, again, a very
14     common thing to do.  With "Chiefs", we have already NAT
15     involved in the States, and TVO is very interested and
16     probably the CBC would be interested, too, if we want a
17     second or third window situation.
18  1975                 In other productions, we have a lot
19     of -- using the international treaty obligations that
20     Canada has with 20-odd countries, we can also find
21     co-productions offshore in the market.  So
22     co-productions is the way things are financed these
23     days.
24  1976                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  The flip side
25     of the issue reflecting --


 1  1977                 MR. TOURIGNY:  This is the prospectus
 2     on "Tales from the Longhouse".  It is a very high
 3     quality production and we intend to be involved with
 4     the licence fee.
 5  1978                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  The flip side
 6     of the issue of co-productions and reflection of
 7     Aboriginal peoples and other broadcasters is that the
 8     more you do, is there the danger that the others will
 9     feel they can do less?
10  1979                 I think especially of high profile
11     events like the National Aboriginal Achievement Awards,
12     which CBC has carried now for one or two years.  Will
13     they say, well, let APTN do it now, we will not do it. 
14     And do you -- are you concerned that that might happen
15     with -- perhaps not reflection in a number of programs,
16     but certainly some of the bigger events?
17  1980                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think there has been
18     an increase in Aboriginal presence across mainstream
19     media over the last couple of years, certainly on CBC. 
20     In presence and in themes, Gary Farmer is involved in
21     or acting in a series that will be on Global this
22     coming season.
23  1981                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  Let me tell
24     you, I am in that series, too.  When they were filming
25     that series, they put out a call for people to show up. 


 1     So I was one of the 20 or 30,000 people in the
 2     background.  I am not sure anyone will ever be able to
 3     identify myself, but I will always remember that Gary
 4     Farmer and I were in the same movie.
 5  1982                 MR. TOURIGNY:  So I -- you know,
 6     CBC's licence renewal is up next year.  I think you can
 7     rest assured we will be there and we will be pushing
 8     that same theme that the national broadcaster has an
 9     obligation.  It is not just the national broadcaster,
10     it is all of the broadcasters.  And I think they are
11     showing much more openness these days.  And it is not
12     as if we are competing with them.  I mean, we go into
13     this as partners.  If we can work a second window with
14     Canwest, and they will be up later today as a positive
15     intervenor.  They are very happy to see us coming along
16     and David Asper has been talking to our members of the
17     -- our advisory group in Winnipeg and they are looking
18     at a whole variety of things which could include
19     co-production, second windows and so on.
20  1983                 MR. TAGALIK:  I think, too, the
21     history of TVNC and CBC working together in the north,
22     you know, we cover a lot of events together and it
23     could be the bullhead whale hunt this past summer or
24     the Inuit Circumpolar Conference.  It is just not
25     feasible to do a production on your own when you can,


 1     you know, put a team together and cover such a thing. 
 2     And the same thing will be with the Nunavut
 3     celebrations.  You know, it is a team effort, you know,
 4     that gets the most effective coverage, especially of
 5     news.  Other sectors would have to be more a
 6     case-by-case basis, I would say.
 7  1984                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  Have you
 8     talked about news, about sharing news footage?  Do you
 9     think that other broadcasters will pick up any of the
10     news feeds for particular stories?
11  1985                 MR. FARMER:  I think we are going to
12     provide a coverage that has never been provided before
13     in the history of broadcasting.  So certainly, you
14     know, that they are going to be watching us for leads
15     and angles on stories that they have never dreamed of. 
16     So it will bring a whole new wealth of information to
17     the Canadian public.
18  1986                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It already occurs. 
19     Southern broadcasters have purchased IBC footage on a
20     number of occasions and I think as well from NNBY, in
21     the Yukon.  So there is already a north-south flow. 
22     And once we go national, we will be covering probably
23     stories that, you know, are a little down in the notch
24     from the mainstream media, they did not make the line
25     up that night.  So we will have our people there and it


 1     will be made available on a cost recovery or profit
 2     basis.
 3  1987                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  Last, I just
 4     want to ask about the funds, the Canadian Television
 5     Fund and Telephone and just ask you how things are
 6     working, how you find things are working with the $1
 7     million or $2 million envelope that has been set aside
 8     for Aboriginal productions.
 9  1988                 MR. TAGALIK:  When we were here for
10     the policy hearings, that is one issue we raised.  And,
11     you know, we would like it to reflect more of the
12     percentage of the Aboriginal population.  And it
13     certainly is not $2 million out of $200 million.  And I
14     think, you know, that, there should be a bigger
15     commitment.  And TVNT, I think, you know, all the time
16     that we have been out there, we have been pushing the
17     Aboriginal envelope and we really got them to set aside
18     that $2 million for Aboriginal producers.
19                                                        0930
20  1989                 So I think that is one area we are
21     not going to stop on.  We really feel that there has to
22     be more put in.  Plus, we feel that there should be
23     some kind of jump-start fund to help us, if possible,
24     in this area.  We are into a whole new area for
25     aboriginal people, and there is a lot of capital


 1     involved and a lot of probably new television
 2     facilities or cameramen, and stuff like that, that will
 3     be out there looking to get started.
 4  1990                 I think it needs to be jump-started. 
 5     It certainly is not adequate today.
 6  1991                 I was fighting over that small
 7     envelope as it is, not only for TVNC but for all the
 8     other broadcasters as well.
 9  1992                 MR. BITTMAN:  As a supplement on
10     that, those two funds are both set aside for
11     independent producers and for aboriginal language
12     productions with a little exception for Metis producers
13     who do not have aboriginal language as their first
14     language.
15  1993                 We feel because of the aboriginal
16     language requirement, we will find a niche most
17     comfortably on the new network.
18  1994                 Over and above that, of course,
19     aboriginal producers can access the regular Canadian
20     Television Production Fund and Telefilm Funds in the
21     normal way.
22  1995                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That covers my
23     questions on programming.  Thank you very much.
24  1996                 Thank you, Madam Chair.
25  1997                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.


 1  1998                 Commissioner Cardozo's questions on
 2     closed captioning raise an issue I had never thought
 3     of.
 4  1999                 Presumably the reason why you cannot
 5     subtitle and closed caption effectively at the same
 6     time is that the question who has the equipment to get
 7     the closed captioning still sees the subtitle, because
 8     it is not removable.  Is that correct?
 9  2000                 So the advantage of not --
10  2001                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's right.  It
11     would be a waste of resources to closed caption a
12     program that was already subtitled.
13  2002                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the cost of
14     closed captioning is higher than subtitling?
15  2003                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No.  Subtitling is
16     more expensive.
17  2004                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Subtitling means
18     the same thing as open caption.  Right?
19  2005                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes.  But I think
20     there is different software involved with the closed
21     captioning.  I am not sure.
22  2006                 And it is all based on English.  I
23     know in French the subtitling is facing many more
24     problems than in English.
25  2007                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because the


 1     syllabification, et cetera, is apparently much more
 2     difficult.  So you may have the same problem.
 3  2008                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes.  Taking Inuktitut
 4     into English subtitles may be impossible.  We don't
 5     know that.
 6  2009                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is it still in
 7     French a problem --
 8  2010                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes.
 9  2011                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- in achieving the
10     same thing.  Apparently, it doesn't lend itself very
11     easily.
12  2012                 It raises interesting questions. 
13     What was it when we heard some French groups?  For
14     example, it could translate that "un homme indigné" and
15     "un homme indigne" would be the same.  And I am sure
16     your lawyer sees the difference.
17  2013                 One is a dignified person and the
18     other one is a very angry person.
19  2014                 They showed us examples where it was
20     completely confused because the equipment was not able
21     to do it.
22  2015                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We are going to caucus
23     on this.  But I think the commitments we can make
24     certainly would be to the English language programming. 
25     I don't see a problem there.


 1  2016                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.  But the
 2     other may be difficult.
 3  2017                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Right.
 4  2018                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  What does the
 5     equipment cost currently to the television viewer to
 6     decode the closed captioning?  What is a ballpark
 7     figure of the cost to the consumer?
 8  2019                 If it is closed captioned, you need a
 9     piece of equipment to uncode it unless it is on the
10     SAP, I suppose.
11  2020                 How do you get it on the --
12  2021                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It used to be called a
13     telecaption, a black box that sat on the screen.
14  2022                 I know that years ago when cable
15     companies were buying cable companies, they would put
16     so much money to make all these decoders available.
17  2023                 I know when Maclean Hunter bought
18     Ottawa Cablevision, they filled a warehouse full of
19     telecaption, closed captioning decoders to give away. 
20     And they are still sitting there.
21  2024                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So there is no
22     problem with the consumer cost of getting the closed
23     caption visible on the screen.
24  2025                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Our technical person
25     is not here today, and I apologize for that.


 1  2026                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  SAP is audio.
 2  2027                 MR. TOURIGNY:  SAP is audio.  But it
 3     could be like the V-chip.  I think there has been a
 4     move to have these devices embedded in new TV sets. 
 5     But I am really not up on it.
 6  2028                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because it could be
 7     an issue to the consumer if it is an expense.  But you
 8     think it is not.
 9  2029                 I have some questions on the
10     licensing framework and on finance.
11  2030                 The questions on the licensing
12     framework may be reduced because I see at page 6 of
13     your presentation that you support the alternative of
14     employing paragraph 9(1)(h) of the Broadcasting Act and
15     believe that:
16                            "...this mechanism will fully
17                            achieve our goal of national
18                            distribution and availability."
19  2031                 My interest this morning is to ensure
20     that you impart to us any remaining concerns you have
21     about the licensing mechanisms that are used so that
22     you feel completely free to discuss with us -- and I
23     will try to direct the discussion in that way -- the
24     advantages and disadvantages of the various means.
25  2032                 We do not intend to limit you in


 1     doing that.
 2  2033                 I do believe, however, that it may
 3     not be necessary or fruitful to get into arguments
 4     about what an affiliate means, et cetera.
 5  2034                 Would you agree that in light of the
 6     legislation and the regulations and what they mean, and
 7     in light of the deficiency questions that you were
 8     asked, that there are problems with 37(b) and 17(5)?
 9  2035                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  We agree that -- as
10     you noted earlier, you did not want us to sort of argue
11     what is the appropriate interpretation of the term
12     "affiliate".
13  2036                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You may argue what
14     you want.  I am just trying to be constructive --
15  2037                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  We agree that there
16     is an interpretation problem.  Section 17(5) is very
17     clear.  I don't think there is any problem with the
18     Class 1 or Class 2s, to the extent that you have
19     determined that a service is in the national public
20     interest and it should be carried on a mandatory basis.
21     As long as you have satisfied yourself of the factual
22     determination of what constitutes a service that is in
23     the national public interest, you could go ahead.
24  2038                 Then you are left with the conundrum
25     of what do you do with the DTH services that don't have


 1     an equivalent provision in that part of the
 2     regulations; whether you can or cannot use 37(b).
 3  2039                 But having looked at that, we then
 4     saw the Commission's amendment to its Notice of Public
 5     Hearing and we looked at Section 9(1)(h) and believe
 6     that where the Commission believes that service should
 7     be carried on certain terms and conditions, it would in
 8     that circumstance be able to deal with all classes of
 9     distribution undertakings, regardless of whether you
10     are a Class 3, a DTH distributor, a Class 1 or Class 2.
11  2040                 So it is a fully encompassing
12     provision, and it gives you all the discretion and
13     flexibility you require in order to make sure that the
14     plans that are contained in the application are fully
15     met and that the distribution aspirations of the
16     application can be met by the Commission.
17  2041                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Tourigny or Mr.
18     Tagalik, what is your main goal in this application? 
19     Is it how to characterize the service, what it is
20     called?  Or is your main goal ensuring that it gets
21     mandatory distribution?
22  2042                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I'm sorry, could you
23     repeat the question?
24  2043                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  There is confusion
25     on -- not confusion, but there are alternatives on both


 1     the characterization of the service as a conventional
 2     network service, a television programming service;
 3     whether it is a specialty service; whether it is like
 4     the Atlantic service or Access Alberta.  It could be
 5     called the Satellite-to-Cable service.
 6  2044                 I note in passing that all three --
 7     37(b), 17(5) and 9(1)(h) -- refer to programming
 8     services.
 9                                                        0945
10  2045                 So that is an issue, how it is
11     characterized, and we can discuss what disadvantages
12     and advantages there may be in the characterization, if
13     you don't take into consideration amendments -- very
14     long amendments that take a long time -- to the
15     regulatory framework as it is.
16  2046                 So there is the issue of how you
17     characterize it and then what mechanism you use to
18     distribute it.
19  2047                 What is your main goal?  Are there
20     reasons, whether they be financing, funding,
21     recognition, that make it important for you how you
22     characterize it?  Or is your main goal some reasonable
23     means of getting mandatory carriage nationally?
24  2048                 MR. TAGALIK:  I think if you look at
25     the history of aboriginal broadcasting and you look at


 1     TV, you see there really was initially the government
 2     commitment to do a northern and southern aboriginal
 3     television system, which would be publicly funded and
 4     publicly based.
 5  2049                 I think we are here today -- we
 6     basically are letting the government off the hook.  The
 7     government has not lived up to its obligations to fund
 8     a publicly funded aboriginal television system.  That
 9     is why it is hard to categorize our application.  Does
10     it fit here?  Is it a specialty service?
11  2050                 Certainly, when we went into this, we
12     did not want to look at a specialty service.  We wanted
13     to provide a very basic level of service on basic
14     cable.
15  2051                 If you look at the aboriginal
16     community, it certainly isn't a rich community that
17     could afford something on a higher tier.  And we don't
18     have the funds today from the government to do the kind
19     of programming we are looking at doing here.  And I
20     think the government should feel ashamed of something
21     like this, and that they take a decade of indigenous
22     people around the world and you show them the kind of
23     commitment the government has in this area.
24  2052                 So I think we have been forced into
25     this route out of necessity.  We have certainly tried


 1     all the way to work through the government.  You look
 2     at TVNC.  TVNC funds are always being cut.  We just
 3     can't keep going the way we are going.  And we can't
 4     fill the schedule today based on government funding.
 5  2053                 So when we put our application
 6     together we really wanted mandatory carriage on basic
 7     to provide the funds to do the programming necessary to
 8     fill the schedule and to fill the gap that is there.
 9  2054                 It is really hard to categorize this
10     in the conventional way.
11  2055                 I know that I could get really upset
12     about this, but I think -- you know, the need is there
13     and --
14  2056                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is too early.
15  2057                 MR. TAGALIK:  -- that is why we put
16     the application forward --
17  2058                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is only a
18     quarter to ten, Mr. Tagalik.  Don't get upset.
19  2059                 My question is more related to the
20     mechanics of it.  You tell us this morning, before we
21     gather all of the information to make a decision, what
22     you see as being the disadvantages or the advantages of
23     the mechanics we use to get your goal.
24  2060                 I gather from your last comment that
25     mandatory distribution is your main goal; that the


 1     service that you have proposed be carried -- and
 2     obviously it is very important as well that it be
 3     carried for a fee.  That is your main goal.
 4  2061                 And I can ask your advisors perhaps
 5     to help us understand whether what I call the
 6     characterization -- that is, what do you call it? 
 7     Because it is not quite the same as anything else. 
 8     That has an impact on any aspect -- whether it be
 9     funding, whether the way you are recognized has an
10     impact on any other aspect --
11  2062                 MR. TAGALIK:  I was just getting at
12     that to show you where we are coming from and how we
13     put it together and what we are asking for.
14  2063                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but my
15     question is:  If you are called a television network,
16     is that helpful to you even if it appears to create
17     some problems?  If you are called a specialty service,
18     does that create problems of perception, which then may
19     affect funding or the view people have of it?
20  2064                 You are a hybrid, but we have had
21     satellite-to-cable services, like ASN and Access, where
22     there may be a combination of cable delivery and over-
23     the-air delivery.  Is that a problem?
24  2065                 For example, if you were called
25     satellite-to-cable, does it matter if the regulations


 1     that allow for simultaneous substitution may not
 2     protect you?
 3  2066                 Does it matter to you whether you are
 4     on the basic band, or very low down on the band, as you
 5     would be if you were a conventional television service?
 6  2067                 I gather from reading your
 7     application that you don't, because you are prepared to
 8     go north of 60.
 9  2068                 Are there things that matter to you
10     as to what the Commission ends up calling you to
11     achieve your goal?  I would like to hear about that. 
12     Then, I would like to hear whether you feel that there
13     are such advantages and disadvantages in the mechanism
14     we use to ensure that there is mandatory carriage.
15  2069                 Is that clear now?
16  2070                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think so.  I will
17     start --
18  2071                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is not whether
19     we should do it or not, but how we should do it.
20  2072                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes.
21  2073                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  The other question
22     will be raised as well, obviously, but my part of the
23     questioning is to ensure that you tell us, on both of
24     these, what the problems of using one or the other are.
25  2074                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We see no problem with


 1     being called a television network.  That is the form we
 2     filled out and it was a deliberate choice.
 3  2075                 We consulted Commission staff prior
 4     to filling out that application because, you are right,
 5     we --
 6  2076                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But we get smarter
 7     as the days go on.
 8  2077                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I am not faulting CRTC
 9     staff.  I had thought, intuitively, that because we are
10     satellite-to-cable it might be more appropriate to fill
11     out the specialty form, just the way it was structured,
12     because we don't have a bunch of over-the-air
13     transmitters in the south and so on, and in
14     consultation it was decided that it was more
15     appropriate -- that we are not applying for a specialty
16     service, we are applying for a television network.
17  2078                 If we were applying for a specialty
18     service we would have done that.
19  2079                 So we see no downside to being called
20     a national aboriginal television network.  Or you could
21     call us, I think, a satellite-to-cable network, if that
22     was appropriate.
23  2080                 One thing we are not, due to the
24     connotation associated with it in the Commission's
25     various statements, is a specialty service, because the


 1     Commission, from day one in 1984, said that a specialty
 2     service is a discretionary service.  It is a niche
 3     service and we don't fit that mould.
 4  2081                 So there is a large downside to being
 5     characterized as a specialty service.  You get into the
 6     access rules.  You get into a whole range of things. 
 7     We consider ourselves to be a core service.
 8  2082                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  All of these are
 9     arguable, of course, because we have considered, as you
10     well know, some services in languages other than French
11     and English.  Telelatino, for example, would produce
12     what is a core service that looks a lot like a
13     television network.  Its specialty, by virtue of its
14     language -- that is what makes its niche.
15  2083                 I understand your view, but, you
16     know, you are getting close.  Of course, the mandatory
17     part would not be -- that is one characteristic of a
18     specialty service, that normally -- but it can be --
19  2084                 There are the access rules and it can
20     be distributed on basic, so it is not that foreign
21     to --
22  2085                 But satellite-to-cable, you don't see
23     a problem, for example --
24  2086                 Is simultaneous substitution, for
25     example, important to --


 1  2087                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It is not a problem
 2     with us, because nobody else in the world, other than
 3     sharing first and second windows within Canada, will be
 4     airing the same programming as us.  Simultaneous
 5     substitution is normally against U.S. stations, so that
 6     is not an issue.
 7  2088                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you have
 8     already said that the benefit is not for you a show
 9     stopper, this being the benefit of being on the basic
10     band.  You are prepared to be on a higher band --
11  2089                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No, we are realistic.
12  2090                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- which would be
13     one advantage of calling you a conventional television
14     network.
15  2091                 So what you are saying is, you would
16     rather not be called a specialty service because it
17     carries connotations, but a hybrid type of satellite-
18     to-cable television service -- you don't see a problem.
19  2092                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  No, I don't see a
20     problem.  What APTN was trying to respond to in its
21     application was the invitation of the Commission in its
22     network hearing that it come up with a formula whereby
23     the service would be widely available.  And when we
24     looked at that we said that there is a provision, as
25     you know, which is 17(5), which talks about programming


 1     services.
 2  2093                 Now, a programming service is a
 3     defined term in the distribution regulation.  It means
 4     a program that is distributed by a licensee.
 5  2094                 So if you look at that definition you
 6     would say that it could encompass anything.  It could
 7     encompass conventional.  It could encompass a specialty
 8     service.  I mean, any service could be found to be
 9     mandatory under 17(5), as long as you have met the
10     factual determination on whether or not it is a service
11     which serves the national public interest.  And then,
12     wanting to --
13  2095                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is, I think, in
14     the national public interest.
15  2096                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  Absolutely.  Then,
16     in order to capture the DTH distributors, because
17     unfortunately there is not an equivalent provision in
18     that part of the regulations, if you are qualified as a
19     television network undertaking, as a national network,
20     we argued -- and whether successfully or not we will
21     find out -- but we argued at the time that, yes, we
22     should be carried also by DTH distributors.
23  2097                 Now, looking at 9(1)(h) itself,
24     9(1)(h) just speaks again of programming services, and
25     "programming services" is not a term that is defined


 1     under the Broadcasting Act, but rather just
 2     "programming undertaking".  And programming undertaking
 3     includes all classes of undertakings that provide
 4     programming, including specialties, conventional or
 5     whatever.
 6  2098                 Given that there is a bit of a
 7     conundrum with 37(b), if you are asking us which is the
 8     framework that would probably not require any
 9     regulatory amendments, and which would ensure that we
10     would be made available in the manner that was proposed
11     in the application, meaning Class 1s, Class 2s and DTH
12     distributors, with encouragement to Class 3s, at that
13     point I would say that your most effective regulatory
14     tool would be 9(1)(h).
15  2099                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, if we used
16     some other tools, other than 9(1)(h) -- unless there
17     was some amendment, and the Commission was prepared to
18     make an amendment -- and you would have no means of
19     getting mandatory carriage on DTH, how important is
20     that financially to your --
21  2100                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  We have argued that
22     we could use 37(b) to get mandatory carriage.  Whether
23     you are persuaded or not is another issue.  But
24     because --
25  2101                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  On DTH?


 1  2102                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  That's right. 
 2     APTN.  The issue revolves around whether they have
 3     affiliates or not.  It is not your tradition, but we
 4     are saying that we are not only a network, we are also
 5     acting as an affiliate.  So we could be found to be a
 6     part of the priority service under 37(b).
 7  2103                 The issue is whether you are
 8     persuaded or not, but that is certainly our argument
 9     going in, that you could use 37(b).  But if you have
10     any reservations about 37(b), then, by all means, use
11     9(1)(h) --
12  2104                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but my
13     question was different.  My question was:  If the
14     Commission used a regulatory tool that did not allow
15     mandatory carriage on DTH, what, in your view, is the
16     effect on the viability of your service?
17  2105                 MR. SUART:  If we didn't have the DTH
18     revenue which is in the business plan, our revenues
19     would decrease by about 6.5 per cent, or by about $8
20     million, over the licence term.
21  2106                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what is your
22     view about the overall effect of that?
23  2107                 MR. SUART:  That would amount to
24     approximately $1 million a year.  There might be some
25     minor savings in administrative, technical, sales and


 1     promotion, but, more likely, the biggest part of that
 2     $1 million would come out of the average $10 million
 3     programming budget.
 4  2108                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If the Commission
 5     were to choose 9(1)(h) --
 6  2109                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Excuse me,
 7     Commissioner Wylie.  I would like to go back to the
 8     DTH.  I think that distribution on DTH is absolutely
 9     essential, because that is what is reaching into
10     uncabled areas of the country, where we are going to
11     reach the aboriginal population in mid-Canada, in the
12     northern parts of the provinces and the rural areas and
13     so on.
14                                                        1000
15  2110                 So, I think if the service qualifies
16     for mandatory carriage, it's implicit that the
17     Commission has arrived at the conclusion that it is of
18     national public interest, in my view.  And if it is of
19     national public interest, then it should be widely
20     available.  DTH is a competitor to cable.  It's treated
21     as the same thing, as Class 1 BDU.
22  2111                 So, it's absolutely essential that we
23     get the DTH market, not just for the revenue but to
24     provide the service.
25  2112                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  Plus the Commission


 1     has said that its regulations on distribution
 2     undertakings should be symmetrical.  So it would be, I
 3     think, unsymmetrical to say that cable has to be
 4     treating a service as mandatory and DTH not have the
 5     equivalent obligation.
 6  2113                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Again, I go back to
 7     we're talking about efficient or effective mechanisms
 8     that would provide you with what you want immediately,
 9     and the disadvantages of the mechanisms to your
10     proposal in substance.
11  2114                 So, if we were to use 9(1)(h) as a
12     mechanism, as you know, the Act says that it's on terms
13     and conditions -- or let me go back to the exact
14     language -- on such terms and conditions as the
15     Commission deems appropriate.  Have you addressed
16     yourself -- I don't think I saw that in your written
17     proposal or in the deficiency responses -- addressed
18     yourself to what you would like that order to look
19     like?  You've already seen a TVA proposal that has been
20     put out for public comment.
21  2115                 What terms and conditions would you
22     like in it, if that were the mechanism used to achieve
23     your aims?
24  2116                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I'll start off and
25     then maybe Sylvie can fill in.


 1  2117                 I thought the framework that you used
 2     for TVA was appropriate and we would like to see a
 3     similar type of framework, with the encouragement for
 4     Class 3s and the mandatory for the 1s and 2s.
 5  2118                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But just as one
 6     example, I would remind you that if we use the TVA
 7     model, it wouldn't match what you've put forward.  We
 8     can discuss that also later in finance.
 9  2119                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes, but I was about
10     to add that the (b) part of that answer was that the
11     terms and conditions would also include a fee.
12  2120                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, and also your
13     Class 2s you say you only want --
14  2121                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We're giving them a
15     one-year break.
16  2122                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you don't have
17     all of the terms that you think are required for you in
18     an order under 9(1)(h) now, would you have one by reply
19     so that you could put on the record, or are you
20     satisfied now that you've thought through what you want
21     in that order or what you think would be in the public
22     interest for the Commission to put in the order?
23  2123                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We'll bring that
24     forward at the reply stage.
25  2124                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Then, of


 1     course, should the Commission approve your application,
 2     we can look at whether it would approve what you want. 
 3     But just to make sure that you have put forward the
 4     mechanism that you would want and that effectively
 5     would achieve your aims.
 6  2125                 Is there anything else you want to
 7     tell us about the licensing framework that I haven't
 8     asked you?  Any answer you want to give me that I
 9     didn't ask the question for?
10  2126                 MR. TOURIGNY:  You mean some things
11     we've rehearsed and are --
12  2127                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, I'd like to
13     be more specific.  We just want to make sure that
14     you're satisfied you have covered what you feel are
15     potential problems of how this is done, should it be
16     done.
17  2128                 You'll be back at the reply after the
18     interventions, if there's anything else, but for now
19     you're satisfied that we've covered everything and that
20     you can perhaps discuss further with counsel what you
21     think this order should contain to satisfy your goals
22     and after some of our questioning you may have changed
23     your mind about some of them.
24  2129                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Thank you.
25  2130                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, finance.  It's


 1     obvious, and it should be obvious to you, as well, that
 2     one of the questions that comes back to our mind and
 3     will perhaps to others is whether your financial plans
 4     are such that they will not put upward pressure on the
 5     rates to keep afloat as time goes by, and that the fee
 6     that is suggested is a fee that will be sufficient to
 7     meet your financial requirements to have this service
 8     continue.
 9  2131                 It has lead me to look at certain
10     things, such as your revenues and the assumptions.  We
11     just raise one question about giving the Class 2s a
12     break in the first year which, if I look at your
13     Schedule 27, which is your revenue calculations, ends
14     up costing you, I suppose, in Year 1 $200,000 or
15     $206,000.
16  2132                 How has this been calculated?  Do you
17     assume 100 per cent of Class 1s from day 1, I guess so,
18     from the number that's there?  I'm curious as to why
19     you think that it's necessary to give Class 2s a break
20     and why, with a reasonable timeframe to get going, to
21     implement, Class 2s have greater difficulty
22     reorganizing their lineups to accommodate you?  Is that
23     based on particular evidence that you've gathered that
24     Class 2s will have a greater problem in carrying you
25     once an order is issued, assuming the Commission has,


 1     between the effectiveness of the order and its
 2     decision, a reasonable time.
 3  2133                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We just thought that,
 4     you know, the Class 2s are under 6,000, I believe, that
 5     they just needed more flexibility, more time, maybe to
 6     get decoders or channel alignments.  We realize we have
 7     to work with cable in a partnership to get the service
 8     up and running and to be successful.
 9  2134                 We wanted to be as cable friendly as
10     we could be under the circumstances.
11  2135                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That leads to my
12     next question, which is:  You've been on the eligible
13     list now for a while.  How many Class 2s have
14     voluntarily carried you?
15  2136                 MR. TOURIGNY:  The problem with --
16  2137                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And raises the
17     questions of over and above missing out on the other
18     $206,000, if they were carried right away, you're
19     making a very large assumption that half of them -- let
20     me rephrase this.
21  2138                 You're making the assumption it's
22     more difficult for Class 2s to get organized.
23  2139                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's right.
24  2140                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But then you make
25     the assumption that half of them will, nevertheless,


 1     even though they're not forced to, when they've had
 2     that option and never used it.  I find it difficult to
 3     understand, given the fairly tight revenue.
 4  2141                 Have you talked to Class 2s that have
 5     lead you to believe that you had to be that flexible to
 6     get along with cable, as you say?
 7  2142                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No, we haven't.  I
 8     mean, ideally, we'd like to have all of Class 2s on day
 9     1.  When we were drafting this in April, we were trying
10     to make it as easy on the smaller systems as possible. 
11     That's all.
12  2143                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But not because
13     representations were made to you that that was
14     necessary?
15  2144                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No.
16  2145                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It was just an
17     assumption made, because one could argue that it will
18     be even more complicated for large systems for Class
19     1s.
20  2146                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Because of the traps.
21  2147                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  The traps, and it
22     is complicated because it's larger, et cetera.  In any
23     event, we'll speak to you at reply because not only are
24     you depriving yourself of those funds, but I find it
25     quite difficult to make the leap that the Class 2s who


 1     haven't carried you, when they have the possibility,
 2     will just voluntarily, rather than wait until the
 3     effectiveness of the order kicks in for them.
 4  2148                 But, anyway, the question the
 5     Commission always asks is:  What if all of this doesn't
 6     come to fruition, what's your cushion, what's your
 7     possibility, if any of the pieces of the financial
 8     puzzle don't come together, and whether you don't want
 9     to have every opportunity on your side to have some
10     contingency, if things don't measure up where there is
11     discretion.
12  2149                 With the Class 1s, you haven't had
13     discussions or not fruitful discussions as to the
14     capacity to do this?
15  2150                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We've had discussions. 
16     I don't know that they could be characterized as
17     fruitful.
18  2151                 We've met twice with the CCTA and
19     with one of the larger MSOs, another larger MSO never
20     returned our calls.  We did speak on a more informal
21     basis during the cable convention in Montreal in May. 
22     The cable industry is rolling out digital.  They've
23     been talking about it since I don't know when, but
24     certainly going back to the structural hearing in 1993. 
25     Now they're finally getting there.  There's been many


 1     delays, and they're looking for digital services
 2     because they're investing heavily in these boxes and
 3     they're looking for services.  So, their position,
 4     strictly from a business viewpoint, is we need stuff to
 5     put on the digital tier and that's where you guys are
 6     going to go.
 7  2152                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And, similarly, how
 8     do you arrive at the assumptions that you will be able
 9     to get 25 per cent of Class 3s in Year 1 and as many as
10     70 per cent in Year 7?  Is that because, in that case,
11     you will give them a financial break?
12  2153                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We feel a lot of our
13     Class 3s are in remote and underserved areas and that
14     many of them would have significant aboriginal
15     populations.  So there would be local pressure, and
16     often these Class 3s are locally owned.
17  2154                 We have a data base that brings our
18     information into every band office and every reserve
19     and every Friendship Centre.  So, they all know this is
20     out there; they all know it's coming.
21  2155                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But 70 per cent of
22     Class 3s would not cover only Class 3s where there's
23     First Nation or aboriginal population.  How many of
24     Class 3s would be in that situation, do you know?
25  2156                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We don't know.


 1  2157                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You don't know. 
 2     You can't even guess?
 3  2158                 MR. TOURIGNY:  There's over 1,300
 4     Class 3s.  They're all in remote and underserved areas. 
 5     So we went on a ballpark on that.
 6  2159                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that revenue
 7     becomes also a leap of faith in some sense as to
 8     whether that can be achieved.
 9  2160                 The other question I have with your
10     sources of funding -- is there something else?
11  2161                 MR. SUART:  For Class 3s there is an
12     incentive program, as well as the two-year half fee for
13     the first two years.
14  2162                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And incentive
15     program with the equipment?
16  2163                 MR. SUART:  With the IRDs, that's
17     right.
18  2164                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Which has been
19     factored into your expenses?
20  2165                 MR. SUART:  That's correct.
21  2166                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, obviously,
22     even the advertising, I guess, when we go back to Class
23     2s will, in some sense, follow how many people you
24     reach; correct?
25  2167                 MR. SUART:  That's correct.


 1  2168                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your sources of
 2     funding, have you looked at other sources, let's say
 3     from Indian Affairs and Northern Development and any
 4     other government department, or the funding that you
 5     now have seems to be the only factored into your
 6     proformas.  But have you explored whether there are
 7     other sources of funding?
 8  2169                 MR. TAGALIK:  Yes, we have.  The
 9     government funding you see here is for the NNBAP
10     program and that will be phased out by 2004.  We can
11     always only get a commitment of two years from the
12     federal government currently for our program.  So,
13     we're reasonably happy that they will phase it out at
14     least not right away, that they will carry over into
15     2004.
16                                                        1015
17  2170                 And we have tried, as I said earlier,
18     to hit the government every chance we get.  And, you
19     know --
20  2171                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is before you
21     decided to hit us.
22  2172                 MR. TAGALIK:  Yes.
23  2173                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No sense, as well. 
24     But we had a meeting it was a month ago, I believe,
25     with heritage.  And they told us directly there is no


 1     new programs, there is no new money.  And then a week
 2     later, I think, the heritage minister, announced there
 3     was $5 million for the Montreal Symphony.  But the
 4     message they were giving us was the cupboard is empty.
 5  2174                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  What about Indian
 6     Affairs and Northern Development?
 7  2175                 MR. GIBERSON:  If I may answer that,
 8     I have a list here of some of the places where we met
 9     repeatedly, with Prime Minister's Office, the Deputy
10     Prime Minister's Office, Canadian Heritage, with a
11     variety of directors, Industry Canada, Indian and
12     Northern Affairs, Natural Resources Canada, Foreign
13     Affairs, Human Resources Development, Treasury Board,
14     Health Canada, Office of the Interim Commissioner,
15     Nunavut and Western Economic Diversification.  And that
16     is just in the last while.  But we have repeatedly over
17     the last few years been continuing to go back to try to
18     get he some restoration of funds ever since we have
19     been hit with the program review.
20  2176                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And those efforts
21     would have been -- would have preceded this proposal as
22     well as subsequent, would have been subsequent to the
23     proposal as well?
24  2177                 MR. GIBERSON:  We have been actively
25     trying to restore funds and the programming since 1993,


 1     in fact.
 2  2178                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, sources of
 3     funding from Cancom are not included in your pro
 4     formas.
 5  2179                 MR. SUART:  No --
 6  2180                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Why is that?  Is
 7     that because it is not assured enough?
 8  2181                 MR. SUART:  The way we did it was
 9     simply identifying the systems that the service would
10     be carrying in and the fees we would be getting from
11     that service.  So if it was a class 3 system that was
12     getting the service, then we accounted for it under
13     cable.
14  2182                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think the question
15     was the $400,000 that Cancom has committed to us this
16     year.  The Cancom decision came out after our
17     application was filed, on June 6.  So to the best of
18     our knowledge, when we filed on June 6, there was
19     nothing that was committed from Cancom.
20  2183                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And what is your
21     view now as to whether these funds will materialize or
22     the help -- I think in some cases it would be services,
23     right, rather than money?
24  2184                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Well, Cancom operates
25     our Whitehorse uplink.  They lease it from Telesat and


 1     they pay the operating costs for that.  And they help
 2     out Aboriginal radio in the north.  And they provide a
 3     back haul facility for Wawatay, in Northern Ontario.
 4  2185                 The sort of cash contribution was an
 5     unknown at the time of putting the application
 6     together.  It has since -- I think Cancom has since
 7     filed with the commission that it intends to provide
 8     TVNC with $400,000 over the next -- their broadcast
 9     year, that would be September 1, this year, to August
10     31, 1999.
11  2186                 That, quite frankly, to put this
12     application together and the research and the
13     engineering and market research and so on, Price
14     Waterhouse Coopers, we were using next year's operating
15     revenue to pay the bills on that.  So the Cancom money
16     --
17  2187                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, pre-operating
18     costs, you mean.
19  2188                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Just for putting this
20     application together.
21  2189                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is what I
22     mean, pre-operating.
23  2190                 MR. TOURIGNY:  So when the Cancom
24     money comes in, that is going to help offset the money
25     that we borrowed from next year's budget.  So it really


 1     will not show up in these financials.
 2  2191                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  The money will not
 3     show up, but the expenses would show up in the
 4     pre-operating expense.
 5  2192                 MS HUTTON:  Yes, where you see the
 6     $405,000 in the first pro forma, that is for the
 7     application and the Cancom money would be $215,000 to
 8     the end of our fiscal year.  And 350, I think.  They
 9     have a 10 per cent holdback in the letter that we have
10     gotten.  So the expectation is that we will get close
11     to 375.  And the 10 per cent holdback, I think is due
12     to problems with their revenue and they will give us an
13     update on that later on.
14  2193                 MR. GIBERSON:  I might also add that
15     Heritage Canada has put some money forward to assist us
16     in this application as well.
17  2194                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Which, again, would
18     not show up in the -- either as debt or expenses
19     carried forward in the operating pro formas.  That
20     would all be pre-operating -- put against pre-operating
21     costs?
22  2195                 MS HUTTON:  Yes, that is correct.
23  2196                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, how did you
24     arrive at the 15 cents?  Did you say this is how much
25     money -- well, first let me ask you, the funding from


 1     the government, you are reasonably satisfied that you
 2     will have it until 2004.  Now, what makes you sure that
 3     it will disappear in 2004?
 4  2197                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Well, we have been
 5     having an ongoing dialogue with heritage.  They had
 6     hoped to phase it out the year that we launched, once
 7     we got a cable fee.  And we convinced them that we
 8     needed a going forward, that there would be --
 9  2198                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You convinced them
10     by showing them your pro formas and including the 15
11     cents per subscriber revenue that you would get?
12  2199                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes.
13  2200                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That you
14     nevertheless still required it?
15  2201                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's right.
16  2202                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  They actually have
17     seen your pro formas?
18  2203                 MR. TOURIGNY:  When we filed the
19     application with the commission, on June 6, we gave a
20     copy to Heritage as well.
21  2204                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, but when you
22     arrived at a conclusion that they would keep the
23     funding, it was on the basis of knowing the particulars
24     of the application and the 15 cents per subscriber per
25     month?


 1  2205                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That is correct.
 2  2206                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And, as a result,
 3     you convinced them to carry this until 2004 and then it
 4     would disappear and you would be -- you would have to
 5     rely on the 15 cents advertising and whatever other
 6     funds you could raise from wherever, but it would not
 7     be this particular fund?
 8  2207                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's right.  And it
 9     will be a great relief to us to be self-sufficient
10     because, really, when you rely heavily on government
11     funding it is, during the past few years it has not
12     been fun.
13  2208                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  They eventually
14     have to give you some funds to cover the cost of the
15     efforts you have made in getting the funds.
16  2209                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That is correct.  That
17     is why they have supported us.  Because, goodbye, it's
18     been nice knowing you.
19  2210                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So let's go back to
20     the 15 cents.  How did you arrive at this?  I mean by
21     that did you look at what a decent service would be,
22     and then the funds that you are getting and what you
23     hope you will get as national advertising and then say,
24     well, to make this work we need 15 cents?  Or, did you
25     say 15 cents seems to be reasonable because as, Mr.


 1     Tagalik says, it is less than a chocolate bar and a
 2     coke?
 3  2211                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We initially thought
 4     we could do this for 10 cents a month.
 5  2212                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you did
 6     calculations.
 7  2213                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We thought a ballpark
 8     that we could do it at 10 cents a month before we did
 9     any business plan.
10  2214                 Subsequent to the focus groups and
11     the research, the feedback that people wanted a daily
12     newscast and that we would ultimately need an east-west
13     feed, and so on, that there would be certain
14     infrastructure costs.
15  2215                 When I said initially we thought at
16     10 cents, that was a year ago in November at the third
17     network hearing.  Once we started putting our minds to
18     it and figuring out what the network would be required
19     to do to serve the population, it became apparent that
20     10 cents was not going to do it.  So we factored out
21     the -- we would very much like to have a larger
22     programming budget, because there is not a lot of shelf
23     product.  A lot of this is new programming.  We feel
24     that it is -- it is going to be very tight on the
25     programming side because there is no real cheap source


 1     of programming for first run.
 2  2216                 MR. SUART:  I would just like to add
 3     that one of the other things in developing the business
 4     program is that we did look to see what other services
 5     would have to create a programming budget, what would
 6     be reasonable.  And we tried to create a realistic bare
 7     bones service using the existing TVNC infrastructure so
 8     that we could lower the wholesale fee to the lowest
 9     possible amount.  But TVNC -- actually AFT -- APTN has,
10     as Pat said, has very little off-the-shelf programming. 
11     It is not part of any large corporate group.  So it
12     does not have the opportunity to share the
13     administrative costs.  It has to maintain the northern,
14     over-the-air transmitters.
15  2217                 And also, as part of the research and
16     part of what the channel wanted to do was to do this
17     news coverage, which also has an impact on the
18     programming budget.  So we ended up at a reasonable fee
19     of 15 cents, I think, which is rather low.
20  2218                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  On the fee, as you
21     know, there are cases where services have been licensed
22     to have a fee.  And if the service is mostly in
23     English, it has a lower fee in -- or a lower fee in the
24     Quebec market and the francophone market than it has in
25     the anglophone market to recognize, I guess, a


 1     different value, perhaps, to the audience or to the
 2     consumer.
 3  2219                 Has it not occurred to you that with
 4     the relatively low amount of French language
 5     programming as opposed to English or subtitling, that
 6     it would follow, perhaps, more the symmetry of the
 7     regulatory framework in place to have a differentiated
 8     fee in French markets, French language markets?
 9  2220                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think if we were to,
10     for example, cut the fee in half in Quebec, we would
11     have to add, maybe, a penny --
12  2221                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Have you tried
13     these calculations?
14  2222                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No, we have not.
15  2223                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Where it would be
16     lower -- have you thought of that as, perhaps, a fairer
17     way of doing it?
18  2224                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No, we hadn't.  We
19     thought that this service should be universally
20     available across the country.  And if you started
21     having -- you know, the primary audience is Aboriginal
22     people.  And my understanding is that the bulk of
23     Aboriginal people in Quebec, the James Bay Cree and the
24     Inuit do not use French.
25  2225                 They have -- if they have a second


 1     language, it is English.
 2  2226                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  The other thing we
 3     considered is when the commission gave 13 cents to TFO
 4     for its carriage in New Brunswick, it did not
 5     distinguish whether, you know, the subscriber was
 6     English or French.  I mean, everyone had to pay equally
 7     for the French service at the same rate.  So we thought
 8     that that principle could apply for APTN.
 9  2227                 MR. SUART:  And I would also like to
10     add that nobody in the interventions, as far as we are
11     aware, talked about that issue in terms of the
12     differentiation in fee, or a fee at all, in fact.
13  2228                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so you did not
14     run numbers or calculations as to whether it would have
15     to be 16 cents in English Canada if it were 10 in
16     French markets.  You have no perception of what that
17     would do.
18  2229                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We did not work on
19     alternative models, no.
20  2230                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because you do make
21     the idea that the programming would be of interest to
22     not only Aboriginal people but to every one.  So that
23     since most of your versioning and so on will be in
24     English when it is in the language that is not
25     Aboriginal, one could argue that the service will have


 1     less value to the francophone.
 2  2231                 MS MacDONALD:  If I might just add in
 3     here is that one of the things with APTN is we want to
 4     provide a bridge of understanding between Aboriginal
 5     people and non-Aboriginal people in this country.  And
 6     that means not with just with English speaking Canada,
 7     but with French speaking Canada as well.
 8  2232                 In Quebec, there are French-speaking
 9     Aboriginal people.  And I was very surprised a few
10     years back when I went there and found that up until
11     grade 3 or 4, I am not too sure, maybe grade 5, that
12     Aboriginal people in Quebec were required to learn
13     French first and then afterwards they could go and
14     learn their own language.
15  2233                 When we are looking at bridging
16     understanding, we want the French francophones of this
17     country not only in Quebec, where there is a large
18     population, but across this country to understand
19     Aboriginal people as well and understand what our
20     culture and our traditions are and to give more of an
21     understanding.  I think that is how we come to be, you
22     know, united Canadians.
23  2234                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, the bank
24     letter you filed is based on the funding which I guess
25     is a term loan of what, 2.2 million, and an operating


 1     line of credit of 200,000?
 2  2235                 MS HUTTON:  That is correct.
 3  2236                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And remind me how
 4     you arrive at this cushion of 173,000, or contingency.
 5  2237                 MS HUTTON:  You are speaking about
 6     the difference between the operating costs and the
 7     pre-op years in the revolving line of credit, the
 8     difference between the $1.9 million and the $2.2
 9     million?
10  2238                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Which is what you
11     call your contingency or cushion or somewhere in the
12     application, forgive me now, I am not quite sure.  I
13     think it was in the deficiency letter you were asked
14     the usual question what happens if this does not all
15     function exactly as you wished and I think a sum of
16     $173,000 was a cushion.
17  2239                 I forget what it was based on.  It
18     was based on something from the past.  I am sorry.
19  2240                 If not, I will find it and I will get
20     back to you on what that comment was.  My notes do not
21     indicate.  I just have a question mark.  I thought you
22     would immediately tell me what that was.
23  2241                 MS HUTTON:  I am sorry.
24  2242                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, the bank
25     letter is conditional upon approval of the CRTC, of a


 1     licences mandatory analogue carriage on a national
 2     basis for a seven-year period, subject to a subscriber
 3     fee of 15 months for a cable service commencing
 4     September '99.
 5  2243                 Now, is the promise of funding would
 6     have been based on financial projections, as I see in
 7     the first paragraph, that clearly indicated, for
 8     example, that you were expecting 50 per cent of class
 9     2s to come in the first year.
10  2244                 MS HUTTON:  Yes, that is correct.
11  2245                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, is it your
12     impression that the bank is satisfied with simply these
13     estimations and the money will be advanced, including
14     the operating loan if that does not actually come to
15     pass?
16  2246                 Do you have any sense about how
17     strongly the Royal Bank meant it when they said it was
18     conditional upon approval of?  I suppose you could read
19     that condition as not meaning all your financial
20     projections coming to fruition, simply the conditions
21     that are expressed there.
22  2247                 MS HUTTON:  I suppose you could.  I
23     think they assumed that the revenue would be
24     forthcoming.  Certainly that was -- we only submitted
25     this plan.


 1                                                        1030
 2  2248                 I must tell you that getting them to
 3     stretch out and give us this line of credit was a bit
 4     of a stretch for them so that they were very careful in
 5     their analysis of the plan because we are non-profit;
 6     that's not usually the type of business model that they
 7     are approached with, this kind of --
 8  2249                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  With regard to the
 9     cushion, I am advised that it is the staff who came to
10     this conclusion that you have a contingency plan.  So,
11     obviously, you will want us to tell you how you do it
12     rather than the other way around.  I may or may not get
13     back to you on this one, but obviously don't look for
14     it, you won't find it.
15  2250                 You see, I could be very helpful here
16     and find you some extra money.
17  2251                 MS HUTTON:  Please.
18  2252                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, let me see, in
19     your financial projections forecast satellite charges
20     to uplink and downlink your signal are fixed and appear
21     to be based on the long-term contract.  Is that the
22     arrangement you have for the uplinking and downlinking?
23  2253                 MR. SUART:  That would be a new
24     arrangement, yes.
25  2254                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you are


 1     satisfied that it would be one with fixed pricing, non-
 2     escalating --
 3  2255                 MR. SUART:  As I understand it from
 4     the letter, I think they said a five-year fixed term.
 5  2256                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Fixed term.
 6  2257                 With regard to the funding and
 7     Heritage Canada, do you have a memorandum of
 8     understanding or is it simply an oral discussion with
 9     them as to continuing the funding to 2004?  Is there
10     something in writing to that effect?
11  2258                 MR. GIBERSON:  Are you referring to
12     Heritage Canada?
13  2259                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  Did I say
14     something else?
15  2260                 MR. GIBERSON:  No, I just wanted to
16     be clear.
17  2261                 There is nothing that says that the
18     funding will officially be cut off.  There was a letter
19     actually that was submitted to the Commission that said
20     that the program is ongoing and that there is nothing
21     to indicate that that would change at this time. 
22     However, in our discussions with them, they felt that,
23     if we were to be granted a licence of this nature, it
24     meant that we were self-sufficient and then they were
25     questioning whether the contribution should continue. 


 1     But there is nothing specifically in writing that says
 2     it will cut off at that time.
 3  2262                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  My question was
 4     broader than that.  It was, is there a memorandum of
 5     understanding now related to the funding?
 6  2263                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes.  There is, in all
 7     of these programs -- it is called the Northern
 8     Distribution Program that was created going back to the
 9     days when Flora MacDonald was Minister of
10     Communications.  It was part of the package that came
11     forward with the new legislation.
12  2264                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the continuation
13     of that funding would be, pursuant to that same
14     document, --
15  2265                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's correct.
16  2266                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- to 2004.
17  2267                 Is that something that the Commission
18     has a copy of?
19  2268                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I don't know if the --
20  2269                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Would you have a
21     problem filing one with us?
22  2270                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Certainly not.
23  2271                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will check with
24     the staff if that's the only documentation --
25  2272                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We have, I think, a


 1     two-year -- it is a renewable agreement, I think --
 2  2273                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but on the
 3     same terms and basis.
 4  2274                 MR. TOURIGNY:  -- and we get two-year
 5     renewals where for most other organisations it is on a
 6     year-to-year; we have convinced them that we need a
 7     two-year.  But in Treasury Board, when they file the
 8     main estimates, they only project out two years because
 9     the next Finance Minister is liable to come in and
10     rewrite the books; so they can't project, and they
11     don't for the CBC or anyone else, go out --
12  2275                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But the renewal is
13     on the basis of those terms.
14  2276                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's correct.
15  2277                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we don't have a
16     copy of that, we would like to --
17  2278                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It might have been
18     filed with the original application.
19  2279                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Apparently not.
20  2280                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Apparently not?
21  2281                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So would you accept
22     to file that with the Commission?
23  2282                 MR. TOURIGNY:  When would you like
24     that?
25  2283                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, as soon as


 1     possible.  I will let you deal with counsel --
 2  2284                 MR. TOURIGNY:  All right.  Certainly.
 3  2285                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't know
 4     whether or not this is something that you have any
 5     problem putting on the public file.  You can have a
 6     look and see, if you want to claim confidentiality for
 7     any of it, it would have to be claimed.
 8  2286                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No, no.  It is a
 9     public document.
10  2287                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  If not, you could
11     file it and it could be then on the public file.
12  2288                 MS MacDONALD:  I just wanted to
13     add -- you were talking about the NNBAP members and
14     Heritage Canada -- that NNBAP members in the north have
15     been trying to arrange meetings with Heritage Canada to
16     determine this, and one of the things that it is very
17     important for us to understand too is, if they are
18     making this commitment, that it be the same as this. 
19     We haven't been able to get together with Heritage
20     Canada to have this meeting.  I know, just for
21     myself -- there are other NNBAP members on the TVNC
22     board now that have probably done more work in this
23     area, but I know that we have been trying to reach them
24     and trying to get their commitment because we are the
25     ones that are actually getting funded.


 1  2289                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  This may be a
 2     difficult question to answer, but if you are very
 3     successful and there is great interest in the service
 4     were it to be given mandatory status, do you think that
 5     that will lead to less ability to get funding
 6     everywhere -- Heritage Canada appears to be the case,
 7     self-sufficiency is the goal -- or will it encourage
 8     funding to improve if it is doing well?
 9  2290                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It is hard to predict
10     government.  The Department of Canadian Heritage has
11     recently been examining the whole issue of devolving
12     the NNBAP program so that it would operate outside of
13     government.
14  2291                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, devolving it
15     to the consumer, obviously.
16  2292                 MR. TOURIGNY:  There are two
17     programs.  There is the Northern Distribution Program
18     which funds TVNC; that one will phase out once --
19  2293                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that would be
20     devolving the cost of funding it to the general
21     population?
22  2294                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We would hope that the
23     NNBAP funding would remain in place because that's the
24     funding that supports NNVI and NIBC and the northern
25     producers, Wawatay and so on.


 1  2295                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And there, you
 2     would think that, if it is working well and if it is
 3     successful, there may be more interest in funding
 4     rather than less.
 5  2296                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I don't know.  Again,
 6     going back to Flora MacDonald in the late 1980s, when
 7     this package came forward there was the Northern
 8     Distribution Program package, which is TVNC, there was
 9     the National Broadcast Reading Service, voiceprint,
10     which didn't have continuous funding, I think it was
11     funded for the first two years, and there was a promise
12     of $150,000 or $250,000 to conduct a southern
13     feasibility study on providing funding for aboriginal
14     programming in southern Canada.  That money disappeared
15     off the books; it was never implemented, the study was
16     never undertaken because I feel the government didn't
17     want to raise expectations, they didn't want to get
18     into a southern NNBAP.
19  2297                 MR. FARMER:  You have to realize that
20     the northern component represents about $150,000 and
21     the southern component is about $1.9 million.  I don't
22     think they want to enter into that kind of financial
23     commitment at all.
24  2298                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let me go back to
25     Cancom.  You talked about the money from Cancom being


 1     applied to cover some of your pre-operating expenses. 
 2     Now, Cancom, if I understand, provides free satellite
 3     uplink and space segments as well as sales and
 4     marketing services.  Did you tell me what you expect
 5     will happen with that help?
 6  2299                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We could only reflect
 7     what is in the latest two-year renewal decision of
 8     Cancom, and those commitments are in place for the next
 9     two years.  We have been led to believe we will get
10     $400,000; we have a letter to the effect that we will
11     get $400,000 --
12  2300                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But that's over and
13     above?
14  2301                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes, that's over and
15     above the other thing.
16  2302                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Over and above, and
17     that's what you would apply to pre-operating expenses.
18  2303                 Now, the help on the uplink and space
19     segment expenses, is that factored into your
20     projections?
21  2304                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No.  It is not a cost,
22     it is not a --
23  2305                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, but is it
24     factored in that that cost does not have to be borne in
25     your proformas?  If you weren't getting that from


 1     Cancom, presumably you would have to factor it in.  You
 2     factored in the fact that it is a reduction.
 3  2306                 MS HUTTON:  Yes, we have, and Cancom
 4     doesn't help with the space segment, it just helps with
 5     the --
 6  2307                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Pardon me?
 7  2308                 MS HUTTON:  It doesn't help with the
 8     space segment, it just helps now with --
 9  2309                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  With the uplink?
10  2310                 MS HUTTON:  -- the uplink in
11     Whitehorse.
12  2311                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the fact that
13     that portion was paid by someone else is reflected.
14  2312                 MS HUTTON:  Yes, it is.
15  2313                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, is there any
16     answer on the financial aspect that you want to give me
17     and I didn't ask the question?
18  2314                 MR. TAGALIK:  I think what we are
19     asking in the 15 cents is very reasonable.  We thought
20     initially it could be less, but if you look at less
21     than 15 cents, then we have to start trimming down
22     programming, trimming down the news, and it really
23     affects the whole business plan that we have with the
24     banks to help us before we get totally up and running.
25  2315                 We feel it is a very good bargain. 


 1     As I said, it costs like a chocolate bar and a pop for
 2     a year per subscriber, and that, we think, is a small
 3     price to pay for the benefits you get out of what we
 4     are asking for.
 5  2316                 It is not extravagant, it is a very
 6     solid business plan, everyone supports the idea.  When
 7     we raise a bit of a cost, like 15 cents, there is no
 8     backlash from the consumer.  It is less than the cost
 9     of inflation per year.  We really feel that it is a
10     bargain.  You couldn't get a better deal for 15 cents
11     anywhere.
12  2317                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It is less than 1 per
13     cent of the basic cable bill.
14  2318                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I suppose
15     eating one less chocolate bar a year would be healthy
16     as well.  It then would reduce the need for herbal
17     medicine, though.
18  2319                 MS MacDONALD:  Another thing is that,
19     as a non-profit, all revenues or any sort of monies,
20     everything goes back into the company, the
21     organization.  So it is not like we are in here to make
22     money and that sort of thing, we are just trying to
23     provide a service, and 15 cents is what we have
24     determined would help us achieve that.
25  2320                 MR. SUART:  I would add one more


 1     thing.  In terms of the business plan, we have built in
 2     a small cumulative surplus which amounts to about 5 per
 3     cent of the overall revenues.
 4  2321                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That may be where
 5     the staff found the $173,000.  We will have to get into
 6     that mystery.
 7  2322                 MR. SUART:  Yes, but a cumulative
 8     surplus is very useful, for example if certain things
 9     don't happen or the technical costs are higher or
10     whatever.  So we had built in a margin --
11  2323                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Far less expensive
12     than an application for a rate increase.
13  2324                 Thank you very much.
14  2325                 We will take a 15-minute break now
15     and pursue with the other parts of the questioning. 
16     Nous reprendrons dans 15 minutes.
17     --- Short recess at / Courte suspension à 1044
18     --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1103
19  2326                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome back.
20  2327                 Commissioner Pennefather, please.
21  2328                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
22     Madam Chairman.
23  2329                 I am going to pursue a few questions
24     on distribution and technical points, but before I do
25     that I have a couple of follow-up questions on


 1     programming.
 2  2330                 I have a quick question about
 3     Telefilm funding which you spoke to Commissioner
 4     Cardozo about.  I just wanted to be clear.  You spoke
 5     about the specific Aboriginal Fund, and I believe that
 6     Mr. Bittman also mentioned the fact that aboriginal
 7     producers could have access to Telefilm's main fund for
 8     their programs.
 9  2331                 I was a little concerned that
10     Telefilm Canada, in their letter of support, really
11     only refer to the fund, the $1 million set aside for
12     production in the aboriginal languages.  That brought
13     to mind a question on a broader issue, really; not only
14     should we be assured that aboriginal producers have
15     access to funds in general, but also the broader
16     question of an aboriginal network does not thereby mean
17     that the broadcasting system as a whole should not have
18     a greater reflection of aboriginal cultures and
19     languages in this country.  This response, although I
20     understand the context in which it is written, may
21     raise that concern.
22  2332                 I wonder if you had a comment on
23     that.  In terms of the efforts you are making to
24     present different points of view and a diversity of
25     programming within the system as a whole, does that


 1     mean that the rest of the system is off the hook, so to
 2     speak?
 3  2333                 MR. TAGALIK:  I think, when we spoke
 4     at the Policy Hearings, we also said that the other
 5     broadcasters have to carry part of their own mandate
 6     they have been given under the Commission to totally
 7     reflect the Canadian mosaic, and aboriginals do make up
 8     a portion of that mosaic.  I think we said that in
 9     terms of employment, training and opportunities in
10     front of the camera, behind the camera, all these
11     commitments still have to be there.
12  2334                 We will keep pushing that as well,
13     representing aboriginal peoples.  If you leave
14     something and you don't monitor it, it tends not to be
15     fulfilled, and we at the time of licence renewals will
16     always be here to make sure that the aboriginal content
17     and that is well reflected.
18  2335                 MR. TOURIGNY:  If I could add to
19     that, as part of the follow-up to the third network,
20     the panel at that time asked us to file subsequent
21     criteria that could be used in assessing the
22     performance of conventional broadcasters in serving the
23     needs of the aboriginal community, and we did submit
24     that.  So I think, then, the ball really is in the
25     Commission's court, when these broadcasters come up for


 1     renewal, to see how they have done and how they have
 2     improved.
 3  2336                 MR. FARMER:  if I can speak from the
 4     experience of someone who has worked in the high end
 5     entertainment field for a long time, $1 million, as you
 6     may or may not know, you can not even make a feature
 7     film for that amount of money.  Certainly, with
 8     something like the effort that Smoke Signals have
 9     presented to the population at large this season, where
10     it remained about 18th on the box office throughout the
11     whole summer extension of examining box office, we
12     could never create a product like Smoke Signals with
13     the current status of funding that exists in Canada.
14  2337                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  This
15     brings me to my other question on the programming side. 
16     Very quickly, I am looking at the broad strokes here in
17     terms of drama, for example, which are the red squares. 
18     Drama, as you have just mentioned, Mr. Farmer, is an
19     expensive proposition.  Something like "Theatre of the
20     First Peoples", "Silent Tears" and others, what kind of
21     budgets are we talking about for dramatic
22     programming -- and it is original programming, as I
23     understand it.
24  2338                 MR. FARMER:  Most of the producers
25     that are producing dramatic programming are working in


 1     a 30-minute format, or 17 up to 30 minutes; most of
 2     those productions are coming in around $50,000 per
 3     half-hour, approximately, currently.  But that is not
 4     the broadcast standard at all; the standard is about
 5     five times higher than that.
 6  2339                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In that
 7     context, then, with the other forms, how are you
 8     approaching support for script development?
 9  2340                 MR. FARMER:  We have no mechanism --
10  2341                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We have I think it is
11     $55,000 in the first year and $60,000 in the second,
12     and it goes down after that.
13  2342                 I think Roman can speak to how this
14     will trigger other script money and so on.
15  2343                 MR. BITTMAN:  Fifty-five thousand
16     dollars, of course, will be about what you need to
17     develop a one-feature script.  So we obviously have to
18     leverage this money, and we will.  So we would expect
19     that we would have $3,000 to $5,000 or $6,000 units
20     available for development and that the producer would
21     be obliged to find perhaps $12,000 or $14,000 or
22     $16,000 beyond that, typically.  So that would make a
23     reasonable development budget for dramatic series or
24     dramatic special.
25  2344                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 


 1     It is an important consideration.  I just wanted to be
 2     clear about that, so that on the record we are aware
 3     that script development is not only for aboriginal
 4     producers but for screenwriters across the country, a
 5     very important component of moving things forward,
 6     particularly in the dramatic area.
 7  2345                 One last question on programming, if
 8     I may.
 9  2346                 I see that music and dance, in the
10     grey boxes, there is only one, but I am assuming that
11     music, dance and other performing arts are present
12     within some of the other areas?
13  2347                 MS O'SHAUGHNESSY:  That's correct.
14  2348                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: 
15     Proportionately, how much youth programming is in your
16     schedule at this time?  I understand it is a tentative
17     schedule, but the focus on youth came up in several
18     interventions, and I just wanted to check that.
19  2349                 MS O'SHAUGHNESSY  For children's
20     programming, I have 16.5 hours per week and for youth
21     about 3 hours; so 19.5 for children and youth.
22  2350                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Is the
23     focus on youth music or is it talk or is it drama or
24     all?
25  2351                 MS O'SHAUGHNESSY:  An example of a


 1     youth show would be "AYTV".  It is fast paced, it is
 2     interactive; it will be also on the Internet.  We also
 3     have "Quajisaut", which is an NNBAP member.  Within
 4     that half-hour, it can contain music segments, it can
 5     be cultural, it can be educational.
 6  2352                 There is also another half-hour youth
 7     program from the Beaufort-Delta region.  It is not
 8     currently aired on TVNC but it is something they would
 9     like to bring forth to APTN because of the youth
10     category being somewhat unrepresented.
11  2353                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
12     very much.  I will move on.  There are many very
13     interesting programming questions, but I want to move
14     on to a slightly different line of questioning on the
15     distribution side and pick up on some of the points
16     that the Chair was discussing with you and go at
17     specific issues related to channel capacity, placement
18     of the service, the use of restricted channel and go
19     back a little bit to the incentive program for the
20     Class 3s.
21  2354                 On channel capacity, on page 25 of
22     your Schedule 29, the supplementary brief, you state
23     that 89 per cent of all Class 1 and Class 2 cable
24     subscribers have at least one unused channel in their
25     cable system.  Are you saying that 89 per cent of cable


 1     systems or 89 per cent of cable subscribers have access
 2     to at least one vacant channel?
 3  2355                 MR. SUART:  That was 89 per cent of
 4     cable subscribers.
 5  2356                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER: 
 6     Subscribers?  Okay.
 7  2357                 I understand your data comes from
 8     MediaStats.  Can you give the staff a more specific
 9     reference, perhaps later, in terms of where this
10     information --
11  2358                 MR. SUART:  Yes, we can undertake to
12     do that, yes.
13  2359                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I am sure
14     you understand the reason that I am concerned to
15     clarify your findings.  The Commission has placed on
16     public file the Cable Capacity Report and, for example,
17     for Class 1 cable systems with 20,000 or more
18     subscribers, the information indicates that only 40 per
19     cent, or 2,009,777 subscribers have access to at least
20     one unused channel.
21  2360                 How do you reconcile your findings
22     and that?
23  2361                 MR. SUART:  We did look at the CRTC
24     data, the July 1998 data, which came off after we filed
25     our submission.  If you break it down in English and


 1     French, it is very interesting.
 2                                                        1115
 3  2362                 In the French marketplace, 75 percent
 4     of the subscribers have at least one or more channels
 5     available, one or more vacant channels, according to
 6     that data.  On the English side, there is only about 35
 7     percent who have one or more channels.
 8  2363                 But there are certain systems like
 9     Edmonton that has 40 percent, or Halifax that has 13
10     percent.
11  2364                 The vacant channels that are listed
12     are a little misleading in the sense that if you look
13     at a 77-channel system --
14  2365                 I happened to be in British Columbia
15     last week, and there is a system in that data that says
16     they have 77 channels, zero vacant channels, yet they
17     have two Canadian duplicate services, one non-
18     programming, two exempt other, and five alphanumeric. 
19     So they have ten.
20  2366                 That's even before the four U.S.
21     services that were post May 1996.  So you have at least
22     ten channels that are there in some sense.
23  2367                 One of those channels I happened to
24     be watching.  It is an alphanumeric channel.  It is an
25     airline departure and arrival channel.  So even though


 1     the system has zero vacant channels, it still has that
 2     as a channel.
 3  2368                 To my mind, APTN would certainly rank
 4     above an airline arrival and departure channel.
 5  2369                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I am
 6     assuming then that in your analysis you are combining
 7     vacant and available channels in terms of what you see
 8     as the capacity out there?  Is that in a nutshell what
 9     your analysis is doing?
10  2370                 MR. SUART:  In a sense, yes; it is
11     saying that there are vacant channels.  But if you take
12     some of the alphanumerics off, certainly there would be
13     more channels available.
14  2371                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  As you are
15     aware, a number of cable systems have recently added
16     new services to their channel line-ups.  Would this
17     impact on the figures you have provided in your
18     application?
19  2372                 MR. SUART:  As far as I understand,
20     the CRTC data takes into account the vacant channels
21     as, I believe, January 1999 as a projection.  So any of
22     those cable systems that would add any of those
23     services would have taken that into account.
24  2373                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Despite
25     that, you still would hold your argument that the


 1     capacity out there is -- am I exaggerating in saying
 2     that it is not an issue?
 3  2374                 MR. SUART:  I wouldn't say it is not
 4     an issue.  Certainly some of those services have been
 5     on there for a while and they are very instrumental to
 6     the cable operator, such as a TV listings channel.  But
 7     it is certainly not zero in terms of vacant channels in
 8     a lot of cases.
 9  2375                 Again, I think for a service like
10     this, they certainly could make room.
11  2376                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In most
12     cases, requiring a distributor to use one of these
13     channels would mean the distributor would probably have
14     to stop carrying either an exempt alphanumeric or
15     foreign programming service or a non-programming
16     service, such as you have described, or such as
17     Internet access.
18  2377                 What kind of impact would this have
19     on cable subscribers and cable operators?
20  2378                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Initially in the last
21     package that was launched last fall, the Commission had
22     designated four Canadian services that would have
23     immediate access.  There was History, Comedy, The
24     Headline News -- and I forget what the other one was.
25  2379                 That was originally talked about as a


 1     $2.00 package.  Then all of a sudden things changed and
 2     it turned into a 16-channel package.  So the cable
 3     industry knew that American services prior to May 1996
 4     were grandfathered and that any additional foreign
 5     services that they decided to bring on-stream -- Food
 6     TV, Speed Vision, Golf, and there may be one or two
 7     others -- were vulnerable to the access rules for the
 8     launch of the remaining specialty services on the first
 9     part and to any other services --
10  2380                 Like 100 Huntley Street in Toronto,
11     every time a service comes around where cable does not
12     have equity, they have all sorts of problems with it.
13  2381                 But they created their own
14     vulnerability in having to remove services by putting
15     services on there that they knew under the access rules
16     would have no status and would have to be dropped.
17  2382                 So they will have to deal with their
18     own consumers on that matter.
19  2383                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You are
20     saying that there will be some changes.
21  2384                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Potentially.  I know
22     here in Ottawa it is because it is a bilingual market,
23     and there are a lot of priority services, English and
24     French.  Ottawa for sure is a problem, and there may be
25     one or two other major markets in the country.


 1  2385                 They are upgrading constantly, and
 2     there are the alphanumerics.  There is the Shopping
 3     Channel.  We could easily take over that spot.
 4  2386                 I am sure cable doesn't want to lose
 5     that because they get revenues; they get commissions
 6     off of that.
 7  2387                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes, there
 8     are cost implications.
 9  2388                 MR. TOURIGNY:  It is drop that or all
10     of a sudden magically find space.  They magically found
11     space for 16 channels, where a year or six months
12     earlier they were saying there was no space.  We are
13     confident that the cable industry will find the space.
14  2389                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Could we
15     go on then to the placement consideration.  I believe
16     you have repeated that, and you said on page 24 of
17     Schedule 29 that:
18                            "Many large urban systems have
19                            placed CPAC and provincial
20                            legislatures north of 60 on the
21                            channel line-up.  This is where
22                            APTN could be located if it
23                            can't be accommodated farther
24                            down the aisle."
25  2390                 Could you give us your views on how


 1     these placement problems could be addressed?  Again,
 2     what kind of service would be bumped in terms even of
 3     placement north of 60?
 4  2391                 Are there any further concerns and
 5     any further explanation you want to give about why you
 6     would accept this placement north of 60?
 7  2392                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Well, we are a new
 8     service coming in, and we don't want to create a lot of
 9     discomfort for subscribers, or as little as possible. 
10     This is why we have tried to work with cable as a
11     partner in this.
12  2393                 Certainly our preference would be
13     below 60.  But if there are no available channels -- in
14     other words, if there is no Home Shopping network, if
15     there is no alphanumeric, or so on, then we would
16     accept -- the same way in Ottawa CPAC was moved up
17     above 60 and the Women's Television Network and Vision
18     were relocated to a much higher area.
19  2394                 That is where the new bandwidth comes
20     in.  When they upgrade, it always at the top end.  In
21     the middle, they have a bunch of traps.  We are not
22     asking them to start changing their trap configuration. 
23     That would be unreasonable and we wouldn't want that. 
24     The basic band is full of priority services:  the CBC
25     and the local off-airs.  We are not looking at


 1     disturbing any of the existing services.  It would be
 2     licensed services.
 3  2395                 So if they can't find room for us
 4     below 60 in an alphanumeric or a restricted channel
 5     that is not too badly impaired -- and we would have to
 6     check that through Industry Canada and have them tested
 7     -- then we would be happy to locate above 60.
 8  2396                 Ultimately, it is going to be a
 9     digital world and your channel placement really isn't
10     going to have that much bearing on it.
11  2397                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In the
12     same vein then as to why you have approached the use of
13     the restricted channels, I was a little concerned to
14     know also just how far you would go with that; what you
15     mean by severely impaired channel.
16  2398                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We would have to get
17     an engineer to say a certain amount of interference --
18     normally, a restricted channel is local channel
19     interference, although I think Channel 17 is adjacent
20     to airline radio frequencies, or something.
21  2399                 If it is a minor impairment on
22     Channel 9 in Ottawa, or in Toronto where it is --
23  2400                 If it was determined by Industry
24     Canada or an engineering study that there wouldn't be a
25     lot of ghosting or ingression, then we would happily


 1     occupy that channel.
 2  2401                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  On to the
 3     next point, which is the incentive program for Class 3s
 4     which we discussed earlier -- and I don't need to have
 5     you repeat that from the financial point of view.
 6  2402                 I want to know if there was an update
 7     on the fact that in your application you said you were
 8     unable to speak to the Canadian Cable System Alliance
 9     to make them aware of this program, or you had not been
10     able to contact the other systems.
11  2403                 I think you also mentioned that in
12     the response to deficiencies.
13  2404                 Is there any update on that in terms
14     of their reaction?
15  2405                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No, they have not
16     returned our call.  We left a message several weeks
17     ago, prior to filing.  It was in the summer.  And the
18     call was not returned.
19  2406                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  As we said
20     earlier, you don't know if this incentive program has a
21     reaction one way or the other, or will work at all.
22  2407                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No.
23  2408                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  We
24     discussed Cancom but I wanted to discuss another
25     agreement from a technical point of view.


 1  2409                 It is my understanding that you
 2     indicate you have a proposed five-year agreement with
 3     Cancom for carriage.  Could you provide us with some
 4     details of this agreement, such as the number of
 5     uplinks and the number of separate feeds that would be
 6     included as part of this agreement in terms of APTN?
 7  2410                 As we mentioned earlier, I believe we
 8     are talking about three feeds for APTN; that this is
 9     what is supplied in the Cancom agreement that you
10     propose?
11  2411                 MR. SUART:  In the agreement as far
12     as talking about uplink spacing, we are doing three
13     feeds for the northern, as well as the eastern and
14     western feed for that full amount.
15  2412                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  It is a
16     northern?  How many feeds are there?  I am having
17     trouble --
18  2413                 MR. SUART:  There are three feeds.
19  2414                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Three.  So
20     that is part of your agreement with Cancom.
21  2415                 MR. GIBERSON:  That is what was
22     submitted to us.  That is what we had asked for.
23  2416                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Can you
24     give us an idea of the rates or terms that would form
25     part of that agreement, or supply that information to


 1     us?
 2  2417                 Would that be a problem?
 3  2418                 MR. GIBERSON:  In terms of the quote
 4     itself?
 5  2419                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.
 6  2420                 MR. GIBERSON:  We would have to check
 7     on the confidentiality of the rates.  But if not, there
 8     would be no objection.  We would be able to give that
 9     to you.
10  2421                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
11  2422                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Those costs are
12     reflected in our financials.
13  2423                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Specific
14     to the links and how it works?  Is there anything over
15     and above what is in the financials?
16  2424                 If the specific agreement could be
17     supplied, that would be helpful.
18  2425                 MR. SUART:  We will undertake to get
19     you that information if we can.
20  2426                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
21  2427                 On the technical side, I only have
22     one question.
23  2428                 Regarding your response to a
24     clarification question, you indicated that you planned
25     to lease a studio in Edmonton or another suitable


 1     location, and you describe some of the technical
 2     facilities and features you expect the leased facility
 3     to provide.
 4  2429                 Have you taken any further steps to
 5     confirm that such a studio is currently available for
 6     lease and within your price range?
 7  2430                 MR. TAGALIK:  When we initially
 8     looked at a southern location, we were looking at
 9     price, accessability and location.  We were at the
10     beginning looking at Edmonton, where there was a
11     possibility that we had a good deal on a studio.  But
12     since then, we have had further work on it and we are
13     looking at Winnipeg being more of a central location.
14  2431                 We have a partner today who will be
15     possibly intervening that possibly wants to look at
16     shared studio costs.
17  2432                 I know there is a breakdown on the
18     leasing costs, on the capital costs, on all the things
19     associated with the studio in the south.
20  2433                 MR. SUART:  We can provide a
21     breakdown which is listed in the expenses, if you so
22     desire.  But we have not had any further conversations
23     since we filed the information in June.
24  2434                 If the question is "is there going to
25     be any difference between moving from Edmonton to


 1     another market", we feel that any costs like that will
 2     be negligible to the application.
 3  2435                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You are
 4     not at this stage able to say that the studio is
 5     currently available.  But you expect to confirm this
 6     within the next --
 7  2436                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Our technical advisor
 8     spoke with the people in Edmonton and got pricing on
 9     the available facilities.  There was a location where
10     we could co-site and uplink in Edmonton.  There is now
11     a very strong possibility that we can co-site with
12     another broadcaster in Winnipeg.
13  2437                 They have not made any written
14     commitments, but we assume that the leased space would
15     be the same in Winnipeg as it would be in Edmonton. 
16     The real estate values are comparable and the quality
17     of the equipment is comparable.
18  2438                 Our requirements are the same.  If we
19     need 3,000 feet, it's 3,000 feet.  If we need four
20     VCRs, it's the same.  You just take whatever was costed
21     out.
22  2439                 There was research done on it in
23     Edmonton that would be applicable to any similar
24     market.
25  2440                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Digitally


 1     equipped?
 2  2441                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes.
 3  2442                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Again,
 4     just looking at the digital universe -- we have talked
 5     about it in terms of carriage -- but in terms of
 6     production, have you any comment on digital programming
 7     and how that will affect your future?
 8  2443                 Are you planning to do planning in
 9     digital?
10                                                        1130
11  2444                 MR. TOURIGNY:  All of our production
12     equipment that we are leasing, and eventually will buy,
13     is all digital based.  Yes, they will be using file
14     servers, digital cameras and digital special effects
15     for the newsroom.
16  2445                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
17     Madam Chair.  Those are my questions for the moment.
18  2446                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
19  2447                 Commissioner Cardozo has a few more
20     questions.
21  2448                 I would like to indicate at this time
22     that we are planning to continue to sit until one
23     o'clock in order to accommodate some intervenors who
24     have time scheduling problems.
25  2449                 So we will continue until one o'clock


 1     with interventions and take our lunch break at that
 2     time.
 3  2450                 Commissioner Cardozo ...
 4  2451                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
 5     Madam Chair.
 6  2452                 I have a few questions on marketing. 
 7     Let me start by asking you about your reach figures. 
 8     You have indicated on page 28 of the supplementary
 9     brief that you are expecting a reach of 8 per cent. 
10     Could you give us a bit of information as to how you
11     arrived at that figure?
12  2453                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.  What we did was
13     use a fairly predictive model that we have used in
14     other applications, that being PWC, before the
15     Commission.
16  2454                 We took the market research and we
17     broke it into categories in terms of population: 
18     English, French and aboriginal population.  Then we
19     took their commitment to purchase the system and view
20     it, and we applied a factor to it.
21  2455                 And when we applied the factor
22     individually to each population, added it up and
23     divided it by the Canadian population, it came to 8 per
24     cent.
25  2456                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regard to


 1     the aboriginal population that you were looking at,
 2     what is the expectation there in terms of the
 3     viewership?
 4  2457                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  I believe we have
 5     estimated that 40 per cent of that 8 per cent total
 6     reach would be aboriginal population.
 7  2458                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right, but
 8     among aboriginal peoples, are you looking at a
 9     viewership of close to 100 per cent?
10  2459                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  No.  We are looking
11     at a subset of that.  We are looking at a subset -- and
12     I can get you the exact number.
13  2460                 I believe our firm commitment for
14     viewing was 36 per cent.  So we took half of that,
15     which would be 18 per cent, and then we took a third of
16     the "most likely to view", which is a softer indication
17     of viewership.  We add that up and again go to the
18     population.  We recalculate it and it comes out to a
19     factor that contributes to the total of 40 per cent of
20     "are tuning" as aboriginal.
21  2461                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So that would
22     explain why you are looking at 8 per cent as a reach,
23     whereas your public opinion poll -- and I think this is
24     the Pollara study -- found that 11 per cent of those
25     polled would definitely watch an aboriginal channel.


 1  2462                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  That is the general
 2     population.  That is the "definitely watch", and you
 3     have to factor in the soft commitment to watching as
 4     well.
 5  2463                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I would assume
 6     that the soft commitment would be the 47 per cent, and
 7     you said "probably".
 8  2464                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes, that's right. 
 9     I'm sorry --
10  2465                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Do you have a
11     sense of the people who say "probably", whether they
12     think they will actually watch, or that they may have
13     certain types of programs that they are interested in? 
14     Do you have any more information on who the
15     "probablies" were?
16  2466                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  Yes.
17  2467                 I want to step back for a second to
18     explain how this research was conducted.
19  2468                 The description that we provided of
20     the channel was in the broadest sense.  It didn't delve
21     into any of the particular aspects.  It didn't talk
22     about any of the particular benefits that are intrinsic
23     in a service like this.  So it was the most objective
24     presentation of this service that we could achieve.
25  2469                 In this case it wasn't a selling


 1     piece.  So when people say that they will definitely
 2     watch, there is an assumption in their mind of what it
 3     is, and there is something that we have said,
 4     obviously, that has appealed.  For people who say that
 5     they will probably watch, there is a softer response
 6     because they can't conceptualize the programming, or
 7     what we have said doesn't match something that they
 8     prefer to watch.
 9  2470                 We have to assume that, with
10     promotion and exposure to the service, we will be able
11     to convert some of that "probably" to definite watches.
12  2471                 Now, within that context, we also
13     conducted focus groups to investigate the type of
14     programming that people would like to watch, and that
15     was both within the aboriginal community and non-
16     aboriginal community.  The schedule that you see before
17     you is a function, in part, of what was available in
18     terms of producers, but it does pay particular
19     attention to the information that we were given by the
20     potential consumers of this service within the focus
21     groups.
22  2472                 We have documentaries, which was very
23     important to them.  Educational programming was very
24     important to them.  Programs that involve things
25     indigenous to the aboriginal people -- spiritual


 1     healing, spiritual habits, outdoor activities, the
 2     whole history of the aboriginal people, biographies of
 3     them.  We have covered off all of that and, while I
 4     can't give you a hard figure of what percentage -- it
 5     is my professional estimation based on that soft
 6     position -- we do believe that that which we couldn't
 7     provide by way of a description we have incorporated
 8     into the product.
 9  2473                 In fact, we asked them what we had to
10     do to sell them on this service, in terms of finding
11     out the programming, and that has been incorporated.
12  2474                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I notice the
13     table on page 11 of the Coopers Lybrand Pollara study
14     where you looked at the preferred types of programming. 
15     Is that where --
16  2475                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  That is part of the
17     source of the information.  That is a representative
18     sample of Canada at large.  And then within the focus
19     groups we got to explore each one of those categories,
20     because, of course, "nature shows" is a very broad
21     category, so we had to understand what that meant.
22  2476                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right.  So
23     you are saying that of the people who said they would
24     watch, you have a total of 58 per cent, and 11 per cent
25     said definitely and, in your view, they had a better


 1     idea of what your service was, and the 47 per cent
 2     probably didn't have a full conceptual idea of what the
 3     service was?
 4  2477                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  No.  It is not that
 5     any particular group would have a better view, but one
 6     of the words that was used in that description was
 7     "yes", or they had a sense of what aboriginal
 8     programming was about.
 9  2478                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  One of the
10     things I found intriguing was that, of the
11     "definitelies", in the question about likelihood to
12     watch, 11 per cent said that they would definitely
13     watch.  But when it came to paying the 15-cent basic
14     fee, 28 per cent said definitely yes.  I thought that
15     was quite intriguing.  Seventeen per cent were willing
16     to pay for something that they weren't definitely going
17     to watch.
18  2479                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  I think that speaks
19     to --
20  2480                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It is usually
21     the other way around; people want the service and don't
22     want to pay for it.
23  2481                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  That is absolutely
24     the case.  I think that addresses some of the questions
25     that have been put forward here today, in terms of what


 1     the effect would be on cable subscription if a channel
 2     was moved.  It speaks to a level of interest and
 3     support for this service that, frankly, I would never
 4     have guessed and have not see in any of the others that
 5     I have worked on.  It is simply because conceptually, I
 6     believe, as we found in the focus groups, it makes
 7     sense to people to support a channel that provides
 8     insight into a way of life that exists amongst us, but
 9     isn't open to us necessarily, and that it has a value
10     system.
11  2482                 Quite frankly, one of the things that
12     came out of this was that it is truly unique
13     programming, which would be so refreshing.
14  2483                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Just to
15     clarify it for the record, these two questions were
16     asked of the same people?
17  2484                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  That's correct.
18  2485                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  There were not
19     different studies or different people?
20  2486                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  No.  What we had to
21     do was ascertain the impact of the 15 cents.
22  2487                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right. 
23     Let me ask you one question which relates to the focus
24     group research study by Coopers & Lybrand.  They talk
25     about a number of people who were enthusiastic about


 1     the service:  "This enthusiasm was tempered by some
 2     concerns about how the service would be programmed and
 3     received".
 4  2488                 On page 7, let me read this
 5     paragraph, which is about what one of the respondents
 6     said:  "We can talk about how nice this would be, but
 7     we have to recognize that we are going for the lowest
 8     common denominator.  People may feel that they should
 9     watch, but will they really?  All of my friends are
10     aboriginal and we watch `Seinfeld'.  Yes, we are not
11     mainstream, but we want entertainment.  The programming
12     is going to have to be competitive."
13  2489                 Do you think you can be competitive
14     with "Seinfeld"?  I know that "Seinfeld" is over, but
15     the re-runs are going to be with us for a long time and
16     will continue to have considerable draw.
17  2490                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  I don't expect this
18     service, or in fact many services, will ever be on a
19     competitive level with "Seinfeld".  That was a
20     phenomenon.
21  2491                 But just going to more mainstream
22     television programs, this channel will have programming
23     that attracts a core audience for sure.  It will also
24     have a large number of people who come in and out.  I
25     think the average number of services that the average


 1     consumer tunes to is approximately five.  So if you
 2     look at your spectrum of choices, that means there are
 3     a lot of services that just get light tuning by a
 4     significant number of people.  I think this service
 5     will qualify as one of them, but there will be a core
 6     audience that will be attracted to it.
 7  2492                 I think that what you are going to
 8     find is that not all programs, the way it has been set
 9     up, appeal to all people.  So within the context of
10     this schedule you are going to develop pockets of
11     tuning and core tuning to certain segments of the
12     programming.
13  2493                 So, competitive in terms of sheer
14     volume of numbers?  No.  Competitive in the sense that
15     it attracts a solid and loyal audience?  Yes.  And
16     competitive that someone will purchase the airtime to
17     support it?  Absolutely, because there will be
18     demonstrable proof that there is a core audience.
19  2494                 MR. FARMER:  I believe, given the
20     budget and the creative talents that exist in our
21     community, that I can easily compete with "Seinfeld"
22     any day of the week.
23  2495                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  I stand corrected.
24  2496                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is a
25     comment from an actor.


 1  2497                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Lastly, let me
 2     ask you about the marketing plan.
 3  2498                 You indicate on page 30 of the
 4     supplementary brief that you are going to spend
 5     $200,000 on the initial marketing plan and 3.5 per cent
 6     on promotion thereafter.  I wonder if you could share
 7     some details with us -- and I am thinking back to the
 8     person I just quoted, who is also thinking about
 9     "Seinfeld" and everything else.  How do you keep that
10     person coming back?  How do you get that person, first,
11     and how do you keep that person coming back?  How do
12     you plan to build loyalty and that type of thing?
13  2499                 MR. FARMER:  We believe that in the
14     early stages of our broadcast that our network is going
15     to be the most exciting thing on the tube.  It is going
16     to be so widely diverse and creative in its nature,
17     because most of the productions that we are presenting
18     have been independently produced by individuals from
19     specific regions and specific backgrounds in culture
20     and education.  We think it is going to be extremely
21     creative and that it will potentially change the face
22     of how people treat broadcasting, with the
23     responsibility --
24  2500                 Given the concepts of native
25     teachings, and such, it is really going to have a


 1     dramatic impact on how television is dealt with in the
 2     future.
 3  2501                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  How do you
 4     plan to hold that viewership?
 5  2502                 MR. FARMER:  I think it is only going
 6     to gain in popularity as we get stronger and gain a
 7     larger audience share and begin to find, as well, what
 8     a dramatic impact this is going to have on our
 9     aboriginal business aspects, because it is youth --
10  2503                 I truly believe, publishing the
11     magazine for the last six years, that we are at the
12     forefront of developing aboriginal business at that
13     level.  Those paybacks are going to start to develop
14     our network into something which is world class.
15  2504                 MS McLAUGHLIN:  I would like to add
16     that part of the research that we did was to identify
17     the ways and means that people have of gathering
18     information on what is available on television. 
19     Because, clearly, in order for them to enjoy the
20     quality of programming we are going to offer they are
21     going to have to know that we are there.
22  2505                 Again, there is sort of a two-part
23     approach to this.  We have a core audience which we
24     recognize initially will be predominately aboriginal
25     people.  So the question is simply:  How are we going


 1     to reach them initially and then spread this out?
 2  2506                 Our research indicated that there is
 3     a strong connection to friendship centres across the
 4     country, to band offices on reserves, and that there is
 5     really an oral tradition of sharing and communication
 6     here that, although I suppose every one of us claims to
 7     engage in, not in the manner that aboriginal peoples
 8     do.
 9                                                        1145
10  2507                 So, initially what we're going to do
11     is continue the communication that TVNC started, the
12     tradition of communicating what is happening with their
13     programming to these band offices, to the Friendship
14     Centres.  We're going to do that in a very aggressive
15     manner.
16  2508                 There is the TVNC newsletter.  That
17     will go out.  It will have all the details of what
18     we're doing.  That will be expanded to cover the
19     broader audience.  We'll create new mailing lists. 
20     We'll produce flyers.  You've seen our logo.  It's very
21     striking.  That logo will be intrinsic.  We're going to
22     brand this network.  It will become clear.
23  2509                 We're going to develop a print
24     campaign using publications like Mr. Farmer's
25     Aboriginal Voices, and there's several other good


 1     aboriginal publications out there that we'll be
 2     involved in.  On the simplest level, every participant
 3     and the focus groups that use the TV listings.
 4  2510                 So, we're going to use a very tried
 5     format, but one that obviously is very effective, and
 6     we're going to buy space in TV Times and TV Guide that
 7     indicates prior to launch that the service is here. 
 8     Then based on the research that we have in terms of
 9     general appeal programs, as they come up weekly on the
10     schedule, if we have a particular feature, I think Mr.
11     Bittman referred to a profile on Indian Chiefs, we will
12     identify those individually and say, this week at this
13     time.
14  2511                 So, it's a typical broadcast
15     promotional schedule in that sense.  But we're just
16     starting it off in a different manner going after our
17     core audience.
18  2512                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And are you
19     looking at expanding the TVNC web site, I would assume?
20  2513                 MR. TAGALIK:  Yes.  Just to reflect
21     the change, we do have a Home Page now and as we evolve
22     into APTN, so would the Home Page.
23  2514                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Once you're
24     licensed.
25  2515                 MR. TAGALIK:  Yes.


 1  2516                 MS MacDONALD:  I just wanted to add,
 2     you were talking about market research and everything. 
 3     I just have to state that aboriginal people are in the
 4     public eye now.  We have the Royal Commission; we have
 5     the federal government's efforts to recognize and
 6     define inherent rights to self-government; we have land
 7     claim negotiations across the country; we have our
 8     healing foundation set up to deal with the injustices
 9     of the past.
10  2517                 Our time is now.  We're the focus of
11     this world as we know it in this country.  It's time
12     now.  If we're focused on, I think that it's very
13     important that the non-aboriginal people realize where
14     we're coming from in all this.  So, I can't see that
15     there will ever be a less -- you know, it's only going
16     to grow more with all these things that are set up,
17     that there will be more focus on the aboriginal people
18     here and that this will not go away, and that they will
19     have an avenue now to see our perspective of things.
20  2518                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That covers my
21     questions on marketing, unless anybody else has
22     anything else to add to that.
23  2519                 Thanks for that.  Thank you, Madam
24     Chair.
25  2520                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have one more


 1     question.  If you were given a licence, whatever you
 2     call it, let's say it's something other than what you
 3     have now very clearly, satellite to cable or whatever
 4     type of licence, what happens to your current licence
 5     and when?
 6  2521                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We received an
 7     administrative renewal that takes us to August 31st,
 8     1999.  So, APTN would come into effect September 1st,
 9     1999.
10  2522                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And?
11  2523                 MS. COURTEMANCHE:  The licence would
12     simply expire, TVNC, and we would not look towards a
13     renewal.  So, what would happen is that the TVNC
14     licence would terminate at midnight on August 31st and
15     at 01 minute the APTN licence would come into effect.
16  2524                 MR. TOURIGNY:  And we listed in the
17     application all the transmitters that we couldn't
18     reoperate, so they would be folded into that new
19     licence.
20  2525                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And if for any
21     reason there was a delay, either in implementation or
22     because of the Commission's delay, then you would need
23     a short-term renewal of some sort?
24  2526                 MS. COURTEMANCHE:  We would need an
25     administrative renewal.


 1  2527                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  In which case,
 2     either it would expire or eventually you would have to
 3     surrender the licence.  But there is no question that
 4     you will fold your current operation into this proposal
 5     as quickly as possible?
 6  2528                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Fifteen cents we can
 7     only run one network.
 8  2529                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
 9     much.  Counsel.
10  2530                 MR. BATSTONE:  Good morning.  It's
11     still morning, not by much.
12  2531                 I have a few questions, and I'd like
13     to start out with one question specifically about
14     subscriber fees.
15  2532                 As you likely know, the Commission
16     has expressed a concern in the past that it would not
17     generally approve a subscriber fee for a conventional
18     undertaking.  Certainly in the context of the
19     application there's been discussion of it this morning,
20     but you applied for a television network.
21  2533                 I'm just wondering if you could sort
22     of provide your reasons for the record as to why APTN
23     should be entitled to a subscriber fee where the
24     Commission has generally not permitted that?
25  2534                 MR. TAGALIK:  What we're looking to


 1     do is provide a very bare bones core service that is
 2     essential.  We are a non-profit organization.  All the
 3     funds would go back into programming.  Public funding
 4     is not currently available any more, and we don't
 5     really want to get into a second class kind of service.
 6  2535                 We're looking at a basic core service
 7     that really meets the needs of aboriginal people.  I
 8     think no one that we've talked to denies that this
 9     service is not needed.  It is very needed and it is
10     very crucial.
11  2536                 I don't know if that totally answers
12     your question.
13  2537                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think we've already
14     been through the fact that it's only going to happen
15     with a subscriber fee.  It's not going to happen
16     through government funding; it's not going to happen
17     through advertising alone.
18  2538                 There's the precedent of the TFO in
19     New Brunswick as well.
20  2539                 MR. BATSTONE:  Although in that case
21     the Commission was very careful to set specific
22     limitations as to the approval for that particular
23     situation.  But I think I understand what you're
24     saying.
25  2540                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  But the point being


 1     is that we wouldn't believe that this application would
 2     trigger a bunch of new applications for a similar
 3     conventional fee.  We think that in the same manner
 4     that you have structured the TFO decision to a very
 5     narrow circumstance, we think there's only ever going
 6     to be room in Canada for one aboriginal television
 7     network and, therefore, this application and the
 8     granting of the carriage fee will not cause a floodgate
 9     of applications of a similar nature, if that's where
10     your concern is.
11  2541                 We think that this decision can be
12     very narrowly construed to this service alone.
13  2542                 MR. BATSTONE:  That was going to be
14     my next question, and I think I've heard some of the
15     reasons already.  But what would be the specific
16     circumstances that would differentiate this from any
17     others who might come forward asking for a similar
18     treatment?
19  2543                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We went through our
20     list of what we think is the criteria for mandatory
21     service.  It was listed in our reply to interventions
22     and very responsive to the objectives of the
23     Broadcasting Act, highly distinctive programming,
24     programming that isn't available anywhere else on the
25     system, very high Canadian content, and, in our case,


 1     non-profit.
 2  2544                 But those are on the record in our
 3     replies to interventions.
 4  2545                 MR. BATSTONE:  Thanks.  Turning now
 5     to paragraph 9(1)(h) of the Broadcasting Act, this has
 6     also been discussed a fair bit over the course of these
 7     few days.
 8  2546                 As I think perhaps Ms Courtemanche
 9     mentioned, it's a very broad-based discretion. What
10     would you suggest are the appropriate criteria that the
11     Commission should look at when determining if a service
12     should get mandatory carriage under paragraph 9(1)(h)?
13  2547                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think it's the same
14     criteria that we have filed, the ones I just talked
15     about.
16  2548                 The 9(1)(h) is a tool that the
17     Commission can use to further the broadcasting policy
18     set out in Section 3.  So, you look in Section 3 and
19     you say, is there something in there that hasn't been
20     adequately fulfilled.  Yes, the proper role of
21     aboriginal people hasn't been properly fulfilled.  So,
22     there's an objective of the Act that's sitting there
23     kind of in a vacuum.  It's a gap that we talked about.
24  2549                 So, you go further down, 9(1)(h) will
25     trigger the fulfilment of that objective.  So you stay


 1     confined within the Act.  You don't have to go to
 2     Regulations.
 3  2550                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  But the point being
 4     is that we agreed that before you get mandatory
 5     carriage or whether you apply 9(1)(h) or whether you
 6     use 17(5) or 37(b) in the Regulations is that the
 7     Commission has to find that that particular service
 8     will be a distinct and important component in the
 9     Canadian broadcasting system and will strongly serve
10     the national public interest.
11  2551                 I'll quote some of the things that we
12     said in our reply to interventions is that the Canadian
13     context level should be significantly higher than what
14     is currently required under the television regulations;
15     that the programming in the service should be
16     distinctly Canadian and not industrial productions; and
17     that the programming in the service should be
18     unavailable anywhere else, it shouldn't be recycled
19     programming and that you should have nation-building
20     functions.
21  2552                 So, those are very precise and
22     concrete licensing terms that would help you limit the
23     floodgate issue, if that's what is your concern, and
24     would really solely apply to very, very few services. 
25     We're contending, of course, they apply to APTN.


 1  2553                 MR. BATSTONE:  Thank you.  I had a
 2     question in response to questions from Commissioner
 3     Pennefather about carriage by Cancom of the APTN.  I
 4     was just wondering about the current carriage of TVNC. 
 5     Are you carried by Cancom?
 6  2554                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No, we're not.  We're
 7     on the eligible list.  We've been hanging there on the
 8     eligible list for several years now.
 9  2555                 Cancom is committed to marketing our
10     service at the various trade shows and so on, but we're
11     not part of the Cancom package.
12  2556                 MR. BATSTONE:  Two programming
13     questions.  In response to a deficiency, I think, you
14     indicated that none of APTN's regularly scheduled
15     programming would be broadcast on CBC North, but at the
16     same time I notice that in the schedule there are two
17     news programs -- Igalaaq and Northbeat -- which I
18     believe are programmed by CBC North.  Would that mean
19     that they're only shown on APTN or would they also be
20     shown on CBC?
21  2557                 MR. TOURIGNY:  No.  That was probably
22     an oversight on our part.  In fact, we give CBC North
23     better air time than the main network allows that
24     regional service.
25  2558                 MR. BATSTONE:  The second programming


 1     question, then, relates to news and how your news
 2     programs would serve the needs of people in all regions
 3     of Canada.
 4  2559                 Would you have news gathering or
 5     production facilities outside of the north, then, to
 6     gather and collect the news from the south?
 7  2560                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Yes, we have budgeted
 8     for eight stringers that will be equipped with digital
 9     cameras.  We've got this all costed out.  We assume
10     we'll have probably more than eight stringers, plus the
11     NNBAP members will cover the north, feeding in.
12  2561                 If there's major events going on,
13     we'll use fibre backhaul or satellite backhaul.  We may
14     do longform programming in the south if there's a big
15     convention or a big meeting or something going on.  We
16     could pool our feed with NewsWorld.  I'm sure they
17     would be glad to get our feed.
18  2562                 MR. BATSTONE:  Thanks.  Turning now
19     to finance questions.  The first one has to do with the
20     projections for Class 1 BDUs.
21  2563                 What I'm wondering about is in the
22     event that there was some lag in the time period
23     between when you began carriage by Class 1 BDUs and in
24     the time period between when you receive the revenues
25     from that, have you incorporated that into your


 1     projections and, if not, is that likely to be a
 2     significant issue?
 3  2564                 The reason I ask this is that
 4     obviously the Class 1 revenues are a critical source of
 5     revenue; it's the majority of revenue for the service. 
 6     If there was a lag even by perhaps a small percentage
 7     of Class 1 BDUs, that seems to me could result in a
 8     significant amount of revenue not being received by
 9     APTN, when it would be projected to be received.
10  2565                 MR. SUART:  A short lag of like a
11     month or two or even three months possibly we could
12     handle.
13  2566                 MR. BATSTONE:  There would be
14     sufficient contingency funds?
15  2567                 MR. SUART:  Yes, whatever the normal
16     procedure is for cable operators to get the funds.  It
17     would not be a problem.  We have that accounted for.
18  2568                 MR. BATSTONE:  My second finance
19     question is sort of an overall question.
20  2569                 We talked about various different
21     assumptions to the revenue forecasts, specifically the
22     takeup by Class 2s in the first year and the takeup by
23     Class 3 systems after that, similarly DTH.  If any one
24     or more of those assumptions were not to materialize,
25     would that directly affect the viability of the system? 


 1     I guess what I'm saying is to what degree could you
 2     afford to have some of those assumptions not
 3     materialize and still be viable?
 4  2570                 MR. SUART:  We built in a surplus
 5     into the forecast, which was designed to give us a
 6     little bit of breathing room, not very big breathing
 7     room but a little bit of breathing room.  It works out
 8     to about 5 per cent of our revenues overall.
 9  2571                 Class 2 and Class 3 systems, in terms
10     of subscribers, their revenue contribution is
11     relatively small.  So, for example, if we didn't get
12     187,000 Class 3 subscribers in Year 1, the revenue
13     impact of that would be relatively small, $400,000,
14     well within the surplus.
15                                                        1200
16  2572                 So we can handle those kind of
17     things.  But, again, it is a relatively small surplus,
18     so --
19  2573                 MR. BATSTONE:  And would it be the
20     same situation with the DTH?  For example, if the
21     commission did not grant mandatory carriage under
22     9(1)(h), and concluded that it could not grant carriage
23     under 37(b) of the regulations on DTH, would that cause
24     too large a hit, or --
25  2574                 MR. SUART:  Roughly speaking, under


 1     DTH, our surplus is roughly about $1 million a year and
 2     the revenue from DTH is about $1 million a year.  So
 3     that would take all of it a way, which would not be
 4     favourable.  We would probably have to take some minor
 5     hit on some other areas.  So that would maintain a
 6     little extra surplus for anything else that might come
 7     up, obviously.  We could probably handle something, but
 8     not all of it.
 9  2575                 MR. BATSTONE:  That gets to my next
10     question, then.
11  2576                 MR. GIBERSON:  Excuse me, I just
12     wanted to make a point about the DTH that there is a
13     financial consideration but the real core about DTH
14     coverage is access to remote, underserved areas.  And
15     that is a crucial element.
16  2577                 MR. BATSTONE:  I understand that.  It
17     is more, perhaps, a hypothetical question.  In terms of
18     if, some -- one or more of the assumptions were not to
19     turn out as forecasted and there was less revenue, I
20     mean I think you have talked with the Commissioners a
21     little bit about what areas would be cut first.  I am
22     wondering if you could comment specifically on the
23     capital expenditures at the end of year five.  Is that
24     something that would be reduced, or --
25  2578                 MR. SUART:  The capital expenditure


 1     at the end of year five really are a situation where we
 2     could cut that.  But, frankly, there is just
 3     replacement of the leased equipment that we are doing
 4     for the first five years.  At that point we could just
 5     release that equipment if we were not going to put the
 6     money into the capital.  It just, you know, obviously
 7     drags it out a little longer.
 8  2579                 MR. BATSTONE:  Okay.  Thank you.
 9  2580                 Just two questions left.  The first
10     one, I understand from your application that the
11     business plan is predicated on APTN launching on
12     December 1, 1999.  If APTN is licensed, how much lead
13     time would you would you need to have to launch on that
14     date?
15  2581                 MR. TOURIGNY:  As much as possible. 
16     We are starting from -- not from scratch, we have TVNC,
17     but we have a lot of programming to find, an awful lot
18     of deals to cut, an awful lot of decisions to make.  We
19     have to get the infrastructure in.
20  2582                 We had been tentatively thinking
21     mid-February would be a likely time line.  But, you are
22     right.  This is a crucial issue for us because we have
23     got to get to -- the wheels are in motion and we are
24     going to be working on things like the program advisory
25     committee and a lot of structural things and moving


 1     this thing forward.  But we cannot start talking money
 2     with anyone until we have got the decision and then we
 3     have got to scramble and get things going.
 4  2583                 MR. BATSTONE:  So would six months do
 5     it?  I guess that is a bit of a February, then.  Just
 6     asking.
 7  2584                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think a seven-month
 8     gestation period would -- the baby wouldn't be too
 9     premature.
10  2585                 MR. BATSTONE:  Last question, then --
11     my wife is at six months right now -- anyways, last
12     question, and this goes to some questions that were
13     asked earlier with respect to a two-fee structure for
14     English-speaking Canada and French-speaking Canada, and
15     I am aware of your position there.  But if the
16     commission were to conclude that two fees would be
17     appropriate, what would you consider would be the
18     maximum fee in either market?
19  2586                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We will have to get
20     back to you on reply, because we have not considered a
21     two-tier structure.
22  2587                 MR. BATSTONE:  Okay.  If you could do
23     that.
24  2588                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Guylain is going to
25     have to start.  We have to look at the subscriber base


 1     in Quebec.
 2  2589                 MR. BATSTONE:  I have just been
 3     reminded I forgot one question.  I completely forgot
 4     one question.  It has to do with the -- I am just going
 5     to keep talking until it comes back to me.
 6  2590                 It has to do with the -- I almost had
 7     it.  It has to do with the available channels issue and
 8     whether or if a channel were -- you have said that it
 9     would be possible to sort of remove a channel in a
10     discretionary tier, for instance, perhaps one of the
11     ME-TV channels.  In a system where there is not
12     otherwise capacity to put APTN on.
13  2591                 I am wondering if that presents
14     problems from a technical standpoint given the way that
15     the services are trapped.  Because if you remove
16     someone from a discretionary tier, presumably APTN is
17     not seeking something on a discretionary tier.
18  2592                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That is the problem
19     that the cable industry took on when they decided to
20     launch that big tier with unprotected services.  So if
21     they want to change out all those traps to accommodate
22     us, I do not think they will do that, and I think they
23     will magically find a channel.
24  2593                 MR. BATSTONE:  So you do not think
25     there will be --


 1  2594                 MR. TOURIGNY:  They found capacity to
 2     launch that bigger package whereas just months
 3     previously, there was, you know, the Commission could
 4     only licence four for immediate access, that is all
 5     they had room for.
 6  2595                 MS COURTEMANCHE:  Changes to your
 7     trap would be your last resort.  You would look at
 8     non-programming services and other services before
 9     going there that are currently not trapped right now. 
10     So it is your absolutely last resort.
11  2596                 So I think they would either build
12     new capacity, which is what they are doing anyway in
13     order to accommodate digitization, without looking at
14     fiddling with your traps.
15  2597                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Just the shopping
16     channel, that is on basic.
17  2598                 MR. BATSTONE:  Okay.  Thank you very
18     much.  Those are all my questions.
19  2599                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Did I
20     hear you give us what you want as an implementation
21     date if you were licensed?
22  2600                 MR. TAGALIK:  September 1, '99.
23  2601                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so that if
24     there were an order issued, under 9(1)(h), that is what
25     the effective date is that you would want.


 1  2602                 Taking into consideration, obviously,
 2     sufficient time if that were to be -- if you were to be
 3     licensed for the cable industry to adjust and so is
 4     that what I -- you were contemplating, a February
 5     decision, is that what you were thinking?
 6  2603                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That is correct.
 7  2604                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  In your pregnancy
 8     test?
 9  2605                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Well, I thought this
10     item may not make the December Commission meeting, it
11     could probably make the January meeting.
12  2606                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will have to
13     discuss our agenda with you.  This, I believe,
14     completes the first phase.
15  2607                 MR. TAGALIK:  Excuse me.  I just had
16     a point of clarification.
17  2608                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are not going
18     to ask me any questions.
19  2609                 MR. TAGALIK:  No, no, we just looked
20     at government funding phasing out by 2004.  The program
21     I was talking about was the distribution program, not
22     the NNBAP program.  But that was the only one.
23  2610                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, that
24     will clarify the record.
25  2611                 So we thank you for your


 1     participation today, Mr. Tagalik, and your colleagues. 
 2     And we will now hear intervenors and eventually see you
 3     back in reply.  Thank you.
 4  2612                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary,
 5     please would you invite the first intervenor.
 6  2613                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 7     I just wanted to remind the intervenors that --
 8  2614                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please, order
 9     please.
10  2615                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you.  I just want
11     to remind all the intervenors that they are allowed 10
12     minutes for their presentation.  I would like now to
13     invite the Assembly of First Nations to appear.
14  2616                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon. 
15     Bonjour.  Allez-y quand vous êtes prêt.
17  2617                 MR. SWITZER:  My name is Maurice
18     Switzer, Madam Chair and Commissioners.  I am the
19     Director of Communications with the Assembly of First
20     Nations.
21  2618                 I want to express the appreciation of
22     the National Chief, Phil Fontaine, for the opportunity
23     for this representation, and at the same time express
24     his regrets that he unfortunately cannot be here.  I
25     also think it is appropriate for me to express our


 1     appreciation to the Algonquin people to allow us to
 2     meet on their traditional territories.
 3  2619                 It is appropriate, I think, that this
 4     hearing take place in the days following Remembrance
 5     Day.  Like most Canadians, Aboriginal people watched
 6     some very moving coverage of Remembrance Day ceremonies
 7     and saw appreciation expressed to the people to whom we
 8     really owe our freedom.
 9  2620                 Aboriginal people, First Nations
10     people, did not get to see much tribute paid to our
11     veterans and most people who watched television, for
12     example, or watched the coverage of Remembrance Day in
13     their media, would not have known about the stories of
14     people like Tommy Prince, the most decorated Canadian
15     veteran of this century, a First Nations soldier from
16     Winnipeg.  Or about the stories of Frances Pemagopapo,
17     from Perry Island, in Ontario who during the First
18     World War was, as a sniper, was credited with
19     dispatching 378 enemy soldiers.  And was awarded the
20     military medal and when he came home had trouble
21     getting the same pension that his non-Aboriginal
22     colleagues received.
23  2621                 Most Canadians would not know that
24     First Nations or Aboriginal or Indian people
25     volunteered and enlisted in higher numbers than any


 1     other identifiable group in this country.
 2  2622                 For example, in the First World War,
 3     the community of Skoogog had every single eligible male
 4     member of their community volunteer for military
 5     service.  That was a story across this country as First
 6     Nations and Aboriginal people felt an obligation to
 7     protect the interests of the Crown that had promised
 8     them in 1763 that they would be sovereign people in
 9     their own territory.
10  2623                 So a lot of these are the type of
11     stories that are really important, that Canadians --
12     all Canadians here, not just Aboriginal people -- that
13     they are not hearing.  And it is innovations like the
14     Aboriginal people -- Aboriginal People's Television
15     Network that is going to make sure that those stories
16     are heard and told.
17  2624                 If it were not bad enough that the
18     stories that the existing media organizations cannot
19     find the time to tell these stories, it is even worse
20     that unfortunately some of the mainstream media
21     organizations are even stifling Aboriginal voices.  And
22     we have some recent examples.  The most notable of
23     which was the group of newspapers owned by David Black,
24     in British Columbia.
25  2625                 At a crucial point in this country's


 1     history over a crucial issue, censoring his 60 British
 2     Columbia editors from publishing information that would
 3     be perceived to be supportive of the Nis'ga treaty, a
 4     landmark event in Aboriginal First Nations relations
 5     with this country called Canada.
 6  2626                 So there is a need, obviously, for
 7     people, First Nations Aboriginal people to be able to
 8     tell their own stories.
 9                                                        1215
10  2627                 The licence application by TVNC to
11     create a national aboriginal television network is a
12     major step for the First Nations in Canada.  In the
13     past we have not been well served by the mainstream
14     media.  One has only to look at how the events of 1990,
15     the Oka Crisis as it was called, were reported and
16     portrayed in the media.  The images that were beamed
17     into Canadian homes that summer were mainly of people
18     wearing battle fatigues and balaclavas, carrying guns
19     and blocking roads, and Canadians could not be blamed
20     for being left with the impression and perception that
21     First Nations peoples were just itching to fight and
22     that the country was about to sink into a civil war.
23  2628                 The media latched on to images, and
24     they became the story, and very little was said about
25     the very legitimate claims by our peoples and the


 1     injustices that had become the root for this
 2     dissatisfaction and anger.
 3  2629                 The Royal Commission on Aboriginal
 4     Peoples was created after the events at Kanesatake, and
 5     its role and mandate was to look at all the issues and
 6     propose a new blueprint for the relationship between
 7     Canada and the First Nations and aboriginal peoples. 
 8     The report made numerous observations, some of which
 9     are especially relevant today in the context of these
10     hearings, and I will quote from pages 624 and 621 of
11     the RCAP Report:
12                            "As long as other Canadians
13                            appropriate the stories,
14                            experience, culture and
15                            spirituality of aboriginal
16                            peoples, aboriginal people will
17                            remain stereotyped,
18                            misunderstood and ultimately
19                            unheard.  There is an urgent
20                            need for aboriginal media to
21                            assume the role that a
22                            storyteller used to fulfil,
23                            fostering the discovery and
24                            rediscovery of aboriginal
25                            identity and community."


 1  2630                 And, further:
 2                            "Aboriginal perspectives in
 3                            mainstream and aboriginal media
 4                            should be central factors in the
 5                            formation of aboriginal and non-
 6                            aboriginal culture, identity and
 7                            community." (As read)
 8  2631                 One of the roles of the Assembly of
 9     First Nations is to promote and enhance the
10     relationship between Canadians and First Nations
11     peoples in Canada.  If Canadians better understood who
12     we are and what our aspirations are, they would better
13     understand us and it would result in a better
14     relationship between the two solitudes.
15  2632                 Mainstream media has failed miserably
16     in bridging that gap.  They could argue that their role
17     is not public education, but that's an implicit civic
18     responsibility of the mass media and it is one that's
19     not being adequately fulfilled.
20  2633                 The RCAP makes mention of this in
21     many places in its report, and I quote one.  Major
22     concerns made by aboriginal broadcasters and
23     journalists focused on
24                            "... access to mainstream media,
25                            broader access to media networks


 1                            in regions of the north that do
 2                            not receive TVNC, aboriginal
 3                            media for people living in the
 4                            south and assurance of access to
 5                            information and media
 6                            independence." (As read)
 7  2634                 The CRTC has recognized this.  The
 8     simple fact that the Commission has invited TVNC to
 9     prepare and submit a clear plan for the creation of the
10     first aboriginal television network in Canada shows
11     this, and the CRTC is undoubtedly aware of the RCAP
12     Report's observation that showed the urgent need for
13                            "... the creation of a third
14                            national broadcasting network,
15                            an autonomous aboriginal
16                            language service similar to the
17                            CBC".
18  2635                 That was on page 635 of the Royal
19     Commission Report.
20  2636                 The RCAP Report then recommended that
21     aboriginal radio and television programming be
22     available to all Canadians via cable TV, building on
23     the service of TV Northern Canada and the radio
24     services of aboriginal communication societies.  The
25     CRTC also recognizes that it is not enough to grant a


 1     licence to such an operation; it must also provide it
 2     with the means to generate revenue and become a
 3     progressive and successful enterprise that will be able
 4     to respond to the needs of all its viewers by offering
 5     programming that responds to their interests.
 6  2637                 In that respect, the CRTC must
 7     provide the APTN, as it will be called, with the
 8     potential viewers by ensuring that cable operators,
 9     satellite direct-to-home operators and other
10     distributors carry the station.  Without such
11     distribution, the network will never be able to fulfil
12     its mandate.  RCAP had this to say on that subject:
13                            "For the relatively modest price
14                            of a satellite downlink, cable
15                            networks could carry TVNC and
16                            independent aboriginal
17                            programming." (As read)
18  2638                 However, we believe that the CRTC
19     must not consider the APTN as a "specialty channel". 
20     We are not just a curiosity to be thrown in in a mixed
21     bag along with lifestyle, cooking or sports
22     attractions.  We are distinct peoples with languages,
23     cultures and histories, and as such we must be given
24     the same consideration and opportunities as the French
25     and English networks such as CBC, TVA and others.


 1  2639                 To truly be a national network and be
 2     able to live up to this mandate, we must be part of the
 3     basic cable package of all the cable and other
 4     operators.  This new channel will become a major tool
 5     to promote and enhance communications between the
 6     mainstream and aboriginal communities in Canada.  This
 7     network will make a huge difference in the lives of our
 8     peoples, and as we strive to develop a new relationship
 9     with Canada and its citizens, the aboriginal peoples'
10     television network will be a bridge to greater mutual
11     understanding.
12  2640                 This is an idea whose time has come,
13     and it is an opportunity that the CRTC can ill-afford
14     to pass.
15  2641                 Meegwetch.  Thank you.
16  2642                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
17     Mr. Switzer.
18  2643                 Commissioner Cardozo.
19  2644                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks, Madam
20     Chair.
21  2645                 Thank you, Mr. Switzer, and our
22     regards to Mr. Fontaine as well.  I understand that he
23     was available earlier, but we have a tendency of going
24     on and on and asking all of the questions we want
25     sometimes, which is what I will do to, but not keep you


 1     all day, I assure you.  Just a few questions.
 2  2646                 As I understand the AFN, you
 3     primarily represent status Indians?
 4  2647                 MR. SWITZER:  We represent First
 5     Nations people on or off reserve.  Our constituency is
 6     roughly two-thirds of a million people, 630,000.
 7  2648                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Is it fair to
 8     say -- this is my reading of the statistics -- that
 9     about half your constituency lives on reserve and half
10     off reserve?
11  2649                 MR. SWITZER:  That's the demographic,
12     yes.
13  2650                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What is your
14     sense of the number of people, the proportion, who live
15     in the north essentially, the Territories and perhaps
16     northern Ontario and a few places in northern Manitoba,
17     where they do get TVNC, and the proportion of First
18     Nations people who don't get TVNC in its current
19     format?
20  2651                 MR. SWITZER:  I maybe can't give you
21     the information you want, other than to say that my
22     personal experience is that our constituents that live
23     in -- the further north, the more "remote", the more
24     dependent and appreciative First Nations people are of
25     this kind of service.  Many First Nations people feel


 1     that this kind of voice or message or service is almost
 2     more representative of them than their Member of
 3     Parliament, because this is where they hear and see
 4     themselves, where they don't in any other place.
 5  2652                 A general answer is that the more
 6     remote, obviously, the more dependent people are on
 7     certain information.
 8  2653                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  To get to the
 9     people who are not served now -- and these are 1996
10     stats, which I think many would argue tend to
11     underestimate the number of aboriginal peoples, but if
12     you go by the proportions here at least, Winnipeg, for
13     example, has an aboriginal population of about 45,000,
14     Edmonton 32,000, Vancouver 31,000.  These are people
15     who would not be getting TVNC at this point because it
16     is just in the north.
17  2654                 MR. SWITZER:  It is my understanding,
18     right.
19  2655                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So these are
20     some of the types of residents who you would want to
21     get APTN to.
22  2656                 MR. SWITZER:  Uh-huh.  The sense that
23     people, because they happen to live in urban centers
24     and they are aboriginal or First Nations people,
25     somehow have lost their desire to be interested in


 1     their culture just couldn't be further from the truth. 
 2     If anything, my experience is they want it more, which
 3     explains the need and use of 112 friendship centres
 4     across the country.  It is really an important network
 5     for First Nations and aboriginal people.
 6  2657                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I would like
 7     to read you a quote from one of the people who wrote
 8     in.  This is L.C. Cross from Kahnawake, and it is
 9     Intervention No. 266.  I will just read a short
10     paragraph:
11                            "As an elderly person living on
12                            a reserve I feel that our youth
13                            should see their natives on
14                            television.  All they see is a
15                            negative portrayal that news
16                            puts on.  If it is something
17                            bad, that is all the news will
18                            show, never anything good.  The
19                            youth need role models and what
20                            life is like on other
21                            reservations.  We really need a
22                            channel like APTN.  I too would
23                            certainly enjoy hearing native
24                            news, what is happening on other
25                            reservations throughout Canada


 1                            and stories with native
 2                            content." (As read)
 3  2658                 I don't mean to be doing a commercial
 4     here for APTN, but --
 5  2659                 MR. SWITZER:  That's okay.
 6  2660                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  -- this is
 7     somebody who has written from the heart in a sense.
 8  2661                 Is that fairly typical of what people
 9     would feel about this type of service?
10  2662                 MR. SWITZER:  We have a bias, of
11     course, but I think that's an excellent expression of
12     opinion.  Here is the most modern of technologies that
13     will help maintain cultural values, the oldest cultural
14     values in this place we call "Turtle Island".  And
15     because people happen to be elders or older people, it
16     doesn't mean they don't understand the value of the new
17     technology, whether it is computers or direct-to-home
18     satellite or whatever.  They understand that those
19     messages that can come in can support and reinforce the
20     cultures that are in danger of being lost.
21  2663                 So, ironically, the newest technology
22     can help preserve that culture, those traditions.
23  2664                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Various people
24     talked about healing today and yesterday, and certainly
25     the AFN has been very much involved in the federal


 1     government's Healing Fund and the new foundation.
 2  2665                 Can APTN play a role in healing?
 3  2666                 MR. SWITZER:  As the political
 4     advocacy group for First Nations people, there is no
 5     aspect of our job that something like APTN can't
 6     support or help.  It is just getting our messages out
 7     more directly to our constituents about all things,
 8     about benefits that they may not be aware that accrue
 9     to them, whether they are health, education.  It is
10     just a tremendous vehicle.
11  2667                 As someone in the communications area
12     of our organization, this would just be the greatest
13     gift that we could have in helping serve our
14     constituents better.
15  2668                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Lastly, you
16     talked about mandatory carriage and you believe that
17     the CRTC must go for that.  The other side of the
18     story, of course, is that cable companies feel that
19     there isn't room for it.
20  2669                 Is there a view -- and we will
21     probably be supported by some consumers -- that they
22     don't want another change in the channel lineup, they
23     don't want another charge on them, they don't want to
24     pay for something that they are not going out and
25     asking for.


 1  2670                 At the AFN you have been in these
 2     types or discussions or battles over the years.  I am
 3     not asking for a battle plan, but what is your advice
 4     to us, if we were to license in that manner, on how it
 5     can be sold to people or explained to people?
 6  2671                 MR. SWITZER:  I wouldn't sell it like
 7     it is cod liver oil and it is good for you. I alluded
 8     in the remarks to the public education aspect and I
 9     really believe that this is a critical time in the
10     history of this country, particularly as it relates to
11     the First Nations people and the aboriginal people, and
12     there has to be a commitment made to public education.
13     The federal government is making it with our
14     organization through Public Education Strategy and the
15     Agenda for Action, it is called.
16  2672                 It is a critical juncture, and costs
17     aside, Canadian viewers have been asked to support much
18     less important, in my biased view, broadcast
19     entertainment than the type of important information
20     that this initiative represents.  This is really public
21     education.  There will be elements of entertainment,
22     there will be elements of all sorts of things, but it
23     is critical that Canadians understand not just the
24     history but the contemporary issues affecting the First
25     Nations people.


 1  2673                 The demographics speak to situations
 2     where, in the province of Saskatchewan, certainly into
 3     the new millennium, more than 50 per cent of the
 4     children in elementary schools are going to be First
 5     Nations children.  So the need for that understanding
 6     now is critical.
 7  2674                 That would be my justification.
 8  2675                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Why can't we
 9     just wait a few more years till we get to a digital
10     universe and there is no capacity problems and
11     everything can be put on the air?
12  2676                 MR. SWITZER:  With all of the issues
13     out there, whether it is land rights issues or treaty
14     resolutions, the Royal Commission was very clear that
15     to wait for these problems to resolve themselves in
16     some way could have disastrous effects, particularly on
17     the young generation that's there.
18  2677                 So I think there is some urgency to
19     this sort of initiative.
20  2678                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks very
21     much.  Those are my questions.
22  2679                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Thank you.
23  2680                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks, Madam
24     Chair.
25  2681                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,


 1     Mr. Switzer.
 2  2682                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Meegwetch.
 3  2683                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for being
 4     with us, and have a nice weekend.
 5  2684                 Madam Secretary.
 6                                                        1230
 7  2685                 MS SANTERRE:  The next intervention
 8     will be by Christina Keeper.
 9  2686                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon, Ms
10     Keeper.
12  2687                 MS KEEPER:  Tansi; hi.  My name is
13     Tina Keeper, and I am here today to make a presentation
14     in support of the application for the Aboriginal
15     Peoples Television Network.
16  2688                 I have been on the periphery of the
17     development for the APTN, in an advisory capacity and
18     as a friend of the project.  When I was asked to
19     participate in that role, I was very honoured because I
20     believe this network is vital to Canada.
21  2689                 I feel privileged to be here to speak
22     to the question of whether to approve the application
23     made for the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network.  I
24     speak here today as an aboriginal person of Canada and
25     as one who has worked in the Canadian television


 1     industry for several years.
 2  2690                 I believe that we are at a crucial
 3     place in our country's history, one in which a new
 4     relationship must be forged between the aboriginal
 5     people of Canada and the rest of the country.  It will
 6     occur only when ignorance is replaced with
 7     understanding, when education and sharing become
 8     priorities.
 9  2691                 I believe that this responsibility
10     lies not only with the but as
11     much with aboriginal people ourselves.  This initiative
12     is part of that responsibility and for me, personally,
13     participating here today is part of that
14     responsibility.
15  2692                 I don't think I need to reiterate the
16     difficult and harrowing experiences that have occurred
17     in this country because of an inequitable relationship
18     between our government and the aboriginal people of
19     Canada.  Although I do think it is necessary to speak
20     to the issue of inequity, it is an old truth that binds
21     us all as it has permeated the psyche of this country.
22  2693                 It is a deeply held belief that is
23     manifest in so many facets of our lives and in
24     particular in the arena of communications.  It is the
25     desire or perceived need by non-aboriginal individuals


 1     and systems to control and interpret aboriginal
 2     content.
 3  2694                 In July of this year the Assembly of
 4     First Nations, which is the national political body for
 5     Canada's First Nations, released a report which said:
 6                            "The Assembly of First Nations
 7                            National Chief is calling on all
 8                            Canadians to speak out against
 9                            'Indian-bashing' by the
10                            country's media."
11  2695                 And:
12                            "The national chief noted that
13                            Canada's media has yet to
14                            respond to major criticisms
15                            levelled at them by the Royal
16                            Commission on Aboriginal
17                            Peoples, including charges that
18                            mainstream coverage of native
19                            issues was 'spotty, misinformed,
20                            stereotyped, and sensational'."
21                            (As read)
22  2696                 Perhaps to many mainstream Canadians
23     and perhaps to some of you here today these types of
24     comments may seem over-reactive, redundant even, as
25     these are the types of statements our political bodies


 1     have been making for a long time.
 2  2697                 There is an old saying:  "When
 3     nothing changes, nothing changes".
 4  2698                 Changes that are necessary to effect
 5     positive change in the nature of the relationship
 6     between native and non-native Canada cannot be so slow
 7     in coming.  I believe it is of paramount importance
 8     that, as we quickly approach the next millennium,
 9     systemic racism must be confronted to make way for a
10     new relationship.
11  2699                 My experience as an actor has been
12     primarily in CBC televised productions.  I worked for
13     six seasons on the television series "North of 60" and
14     in various other awards shows and specials.  I have had
15     the tremendous opportunity to develop as an actor and
16     to meet people all over this country, and for all of
17     this I will be eternally grateful.
18  2700                 But, in participating in over 90
19     production segments, I have rarely had the opportunity
20     to work with crew members who are aboriginal and, to
21     the best of my knowledge, I have worked with only five
22     aboriginal people in the capacities of producer, writer
23     or director:  three writers, one writer/director and
24     one producer/writer/director.
25  2701                 I know that these are not the only


 1     aboriginal people who have worked for the CBC in these
 2     capacities, but given the extent and the role of the
 3     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in this country, they
 4     hardly seem adequate when one is considering,
 5     essentially, what should be intrinsic to aboriginal
 6     programming in Canada:  increased aboriginal control of
 7     the production and content.
 8  2702                 The CBC, as an institution which has
 9     certainly provided French Canada with programming and
10     opportunities has not always considered aboriginal
11     programming a priority.  This reluctance is definitely
12     not confined to the CBC.  In fact, they have been the
13     forerunners in terms of aboriginal content.
14  2703                 But we are the original people of
15     this country, and we have a rightful place in the
16     television programming of this country.  Up to this
17     point, we have not been given that chance, and it is
18     difficult to fathom why without concluding that this
19     has been the result of systemic racism.
20  2704                 I am not implying that only we, as
21     aboriginal people, should or can produce work on
22     aboriginal people and their experiences, but it is time
23     that we be allowed space on the stage as well.  It is
24     time that we be given the opportunity to share who we
25     are, our cultures, languages, experiences; to be the


 1     interpreters of our own stories.  We have the
 2     knowledge, experience, manpower and support that is
 3     needed to produce our own work.
 4  2705                 In the 1997 Speech from the Throne,
 5     excerpt on Canadian unity, Building a Stronger Canada,
 6     it said:
 7                            "Our values of openness,
 8                            tolerance and sharing, our
 9                            qualities of social and
10                            linguistic diversity, and our
11                            high standard of living equip us
12                            exceptionally well for the
13                            challenges of a new age. 
14                            Canadians want a just and
15                            sharing society.  A prosperous
16                            society.  A tolerant and highly
17                            diverse society.  A society that
18                            fosters excellence and
19                            creativity.  Realizing these
20                            aspirations fully will require
21                            the active engagement of
22                            Canadians in all walks of life,
23                            as well as our institutions,
24                            businesses, voluntary
25                            organizations and our


 1                            governments.  It will require
 2                            collaboration and partnership. 
 3                            It will require reaching out."
 4  2706                 This initiative, the Aboriginal
 5     Peoples Television Network, is potentially momentous in
 6     the direction of a more positive future for Canada. 
 7     This new direction, however, cannot be achieved without
 8     firm decisions and definite commitments; the steps must
 9     be tangible.
10  2707                 We have lived in an atmosphere in our
11     relationship to one another that has been strained and
12     tenuous and at times difficult to foresee whether it
13     could ever change.  I truly believe that the Aboriginal
14     Peoples Television Network will be a gift to this
15     country, benefiting not only the aboriginal people but
16     all other parts of the cultural mosaic that is Canada.
17  2708                 Ekosi; thank you.
18  2709                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
19  2710                 Commissioner Pennefather?
20  2711                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
21     Madam Chair.
22  2712                 Hello and welcome.  Thank you for
23     coming all the way to this important hearing.  I would
24     like to congratulate you for your contributions as an
25     actress and as a participant in Canada's arts and


 1     cultural community.
 2  2713                 MS KEEPER:  Thank you.
 3  2714                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And thank
 4     you for your very eloquent words this morning.
 5  2715                 In your written submission you
 6     mentioned, and brought forward as you did today, your
 7     experience as a female native actor.  I would like to
 8     take advantage of your presence to explore that a
 9     little further in talking about your career to date and
10     your observations on mainstream media as well, in terms
11     of the opportunities that are or are not available to
12     native actors, native writers, native directors and
13     producers.  And perhaps you wouldn't mind giving us a
14     focus too on women native actors, writers.
15  2716                 What do you think will be the key
16     differences that APTN will make in your professional
17     life and in the professional lives of those younger
18     actors and actresses who are coming along?
19  2717                 MS KEEPER:  I would think that the
20     major contribution to artists and producers and the
21     like will be that they will be able to work.  They will
22     be able to have a forum that really has not been there
23     before.
24  2718                 When somebody is an artist or chooses
25     to be a writer, director, producer, whatever you choose


 1     to be, it is because that is what you want to do; you
 2     believe in it, for whatever reason.  Up to this point,
 3     for myself personally, what I have seen is that there
 4     is a lot of reluctance on the part of the systems that
 5     are in place to give you an opportunity to do your
 6     work.
 7  2719                 As an actor, I am hoping that I will
 8     have an opportunity, but a lot of times I don't.  I
 9     have never been offered a role on stage that is a non-
10     native role.  I have been faced with comments by media,
11     and other people, that assume that I have no training;
12     that I was literally picked off the street for this
13     job.
14  2720                 That is what I am talking about when
15     I talk about deeply ingrained thought in this country. 
16     That becomes the biggest barrier, I think.  It is a
17     patronizing attitude that believes that you are not
18     really as able; that you are not really a thinker; you
19     are not really capable.
20  2721                 Here we are.  It is 1998.  We have an
21     old tradition in my family that is very strong.  I come
22     from a family that has a long history of leadership. 
23     The battles that we are battling today is stuff that we
24     were battling at the turn of the century.  And now we
25     are at the turn of a new century, and it is time that


 1     we need in this country to say that we are here; we are
 2     part of this country; and we are as capable as anybody
 3     else in this country.
 4  2722                 When people argue that mainstream
 5     Canada maybe is not as interested in aboriginal
 6     programming or aboriginal stories, or aboriginal
 7     artists, even images of aboriginal people, I don't
 8     think that is true.  I say that because having worked
 9     on "North of 60" for many years, I can honestly tell
10     you when we were in production before we first went to
11     air in the first season, I thought the show would never
12     make it.  I thought Canada is not going to accept this
13     show.
14  2723                 In the first season we had two non-
15     native leads out of four.  But I thought:  Here is a
16     predominantly native cast, set in a native community. 
17     They are never going to go for it.  We are going to be
18     back home in a couple of years.
19  2724                 I was as surprised as anybody that
20     Canada has embraced that show.
21  2725                 Speaking of "Seinfeld", I was just
22     told by my producers in CBC focus groups that "North of
23     60" was the number one missed show of shows that had
24     been cancelled after last season, beating out
25     "Seinfeld".


 1  2726                 I think that says a lot about what
 2     Canadians --
 3  2727                 We have, I think, a misconception
 4     about what our Canadian audiences want.  I think we try
 5     to manipulate it a lot of times, especially in terms of
 6     Canada and television programming.  We have amazing
 7     opportunities that the Americans often -- they have
 8     formulated a type of programming that is very
 9     successful, but Canada is much more accepting of a
10     broader range of programming.
11  2728                 I think that is an opportunity that
12     APTN -- I think it is a great opportunity for Canada.
13  2729                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
14     I always know how important it is to listen to the
15     experiences of those like yourself, working in film and
16     television, or in any area, to try to understand and to
17     hear what systemic barriers really are.
18  2730                 It is often so hard, as I have
19     discussed and been witness to and experienced, to put
20     your finger on -- in fact, it is almost impossible --
21     where it is coming from.
22  2731                 MS KEEPER:  Yes, absolutely.  I
23     believe that.  It is very covert a lot of the time.
24  2732                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  But you
25     moved from there to a discussion of the opportunities


 1     for Canada as a whole and for Canadian programming as a
 2     whole in a comment that would have suited well our
 3     earlier discussions on Canadian television in general.
 4  2733                 That is part of your discussion about
 5     the opportunities offered by APTN.  But in your remarks
 6     today and in your written comments you have also
 7     indicated that the other important mandate will be to
 8     break down these barriers.
 9  2734                 Those are two very big
10     responsibilities in terms of offering opportunities for
11     those in arts and culture and for programming and ideas
12     and exchange of ideas of aboriginal Canadians, but also
13     to break down barriers between aboriginals and non-
14     aboriginals.
15  2735                 What is the most important effect
16     that APTN will have on mainstream media?
17  2736                 MS KEEPER:  The first thought that
18     comes to my head is that it will challenge mainstream
19     media.  At this point, I don't think it was --
20     particularly south of 60, that without a national
21     network like this the challenge really isn't there.
22  2737                 The Royal Commission on Aboriginal
23     Peoples has made its report.  It was made public quite
24     some time ago.  And yet it seems to have very little
25     impact on mainstream media.


 1  2738                 That is what I mean.  I think it is
 2     our responsibility to start challenging mainstream
 3     Canada.  It is our responsibility not just to sit back
 4     and say "this is what you are doing wrong" -- if
 5     nothing changes, then somebody has to take the ball and
 6     say:  "What can we do to change this?"
 7                                                        1245
 8  2739                 I think that is what will happen in
 9     terms of aboriginal media, like a native newscast. 
10     They will start to challenge the mainstream media.  So
11     that when you say "Here is one report on this story,
12     and here is another report on this story, coming from
13     the horse's mouth" --
14  2740                 I think once it is out there -- and I
15     think that is great for Canada.  I think that a lot of
16     racism is based in fear.  That is because there is a
17     lot of ignorance.  People just don't know.  This is the
18     opportunity to start sharing.
19  2741                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
20     very much for those thoughtful comments.  We could
21     discuss this at length, but I think you have made your
22     points very, very clearly.  This brings me to one last
23     question which Commissioner Cardozo also asked, in
24     terms of how you think Canadians will react.
25  2742                 If we look at this in terms of the


 1     discussions we have had about APTN becoming part of
 2     mandatory carriage, it may result in the replacement of
 3     other television services.
 4  2743                 Since we are talking about one
 5     important component of this as making sure that all
 6     Canadians and all aboriginal Canadians have the widest
 7     possible access to this service, if it is going to
 8     fulfil the mandates you and I have been discussing, how
 9     do you think Canadians will react?  We are told that
10     there will be customer concern about losing services 
11     and those services being replaced by an APTN-type
12     service.
13  2744                 What would one do about that to
14     promote and to market the service?
15  2745                 MS KEEPER:  I agree.  I would be
16     surprised if the initial reaction was not one of
17     concern in the general public.  But with the right
18     marketing, with the right kind of voices attached to
19     this network, and where you have public people who are
20     trusted being part of the marketing of this, I don't
21     think it would take very long to change that attitude.
22  2746                 I think that you will be quite
23     surprised.  I always look back to my experience in
24     "North of 60", just because I was so surprised.  I just
25     never expected it.  Right from the get-go it was very


 1     successful.  I think that it will be the same with
 2     APTN.  I think that Canada is really ready for this.
 3  2747                 For some reason we have a lot of fear
 4     in this country about giving a place on the stage, as
 5     it were, to aboriginal people, and hardly ever is it
 6     not successful.  As an artist, that is how I see it. 
 7     People want to know and people are excited about their
 8     own country and who is here.
 9  2748                 I don't think it would take a lot of
10     work.  I think that people would be very quick to
11     change their opinion.
12  2749                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
13     very much.  It is good to have an artist here.
14  2750                 MS KEEPER:  Thank you.
15  2751                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
16     Cardozo ...
17  2752                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I have a
18     comment and a question.
19  2753                 I thought it was interesting in
20     response to Commissioner Pennefather's question about
21     the effect of APTN on the other media that you said it
22     would challenge the mainstream media.  I read that as
23     competition, which is something that we tend to
24     encourage a lot in a lot of fields.  So that is an
25     interesting thought.


 1  2754                 I spent some time going through the
 2     various letters that came in, in addition to the
 3     briefs, and there were some 300 or so.  As you may
 4     know, or as you would expect, "North of 60" comes up
 5     quite a lot.  For the most part, people are saying they
 6     would like to see more of "North of 60" and that type
 7     of programming.
 8  2755                 There was one comment where someone
 9     said:  "I have been on a lot of reserves and I have
10     never seen one like the one on `North of 60'", that it
11     was rather a glorified version.  I am wondering if that
12     is something that mainstream media does, or that the
13     mainstream networks do, such that in "North of 60" you
14     have a lot of the story, more than we have ever had
15     before in any other program, but yet there is an
16     element of glorifying or whitewashing or not presenting
17     the full story.
18  2756                 MS KEEPER:  I would say two things. 
19     One is that often mainstream media comes in with a
20     particular bias, and I think that is because of the
21     history.  I really do.  I believe there is a particular
22     mindset and that people understand that from the time
23     they are very young, and in particular our generation. 
24     I think that with the younger generation that is
25     changing.


 1  2757                 It colours what is in the media.
 2  2758                 I remember in university being told
 3     by my professors that I was biased, and I would think
 4     "And you're not?"
 5  2759                 That is one of the biggest things
 6     about mainstream media.  They come in with a particular
 7     point of view.
 8  2760                 Also, a lot of times they don't have
 9     a lot of the information.  They don't know what our
10     history is.  They don't know what has governed Indian
11     people's lives and what has dictated how we live or
12     where we should live.  A lot of people just don't know
13     that information, and it is the same with people in the
14     media.
15  2761                 I don't think it is uncommon today. 
16     I live in Winnipeg and there are headlines such as
17     "Poor Indians Getting Slot Machines".  That will be a
18     headline.  It perpetuates that same thinking about
19     Indian people.
20  2762                 That is one of the things that
21     happens with the media.
22  2763                 I have lost my thought, too.
23  2764                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  It is going
24     around.
25  2765                 You mentioned "Seinfeld".  There is a


 1     school, which I think is in Maniwaki, and a number of
 2     the students wrote in.  Some of them talked about more
 3     of "North of 60".  The other thing they said is that
 4     they would like to see a native "Seinfeld".  So maybe
 5     if there had been a native "Seinfeld" it would have
 6     done as well as "North of 60".
 7  2766                 Those are my questions.  Thank you
 8     very much.
 9  2767                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your comment about
10     a professor wondering whether he was biased or you are
11     biased reminds me of one I had.  A student was
12     complaining how difficult he was to understand because
13     he had such an accent, to which he answered, very
14     annoyed:  "What accent?  I don't have an accent."
15  2768                 Thank you very much for your
16     participation.
17  2769                 MS KEEPER:  Thank you.
18  2770                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary ...
19  2771                 MS SANTERRE:  I would now like to
20     invite Silver Birches Senior School to appear.
22  2772                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon, Mr.
23     Swanson.  I hope your children are behaving in your
24     absence.
25  2773                 MR. SWANSON:  They best be.


 1  2774                 Actually, we have a wonderful school,
 2     a wonderful climate, so I have no doubt that they will
 3     be very, very busy.
 4  2775                 As a matter of fact, one of the
 5     things they are doing this afternoon is that we are
 6     having a mini-United Nations Day and many of our
 7     children will be presenting speeches in a variety of
 8     languages.  Some of our kids will be videotaping it and
 9     I look forward to seeing it when I get back.
10  2776                 Members of the Commission, Madam
11     Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity of presenting
12     at these hearings.  Every now and then we find
13     ourselves presented with an opportunity to truly make a
14     difference, and I believe that this is one of those
15     opportunities.
16  2777                 Instituting APTN as a working reality
17     will provide significant opportunity in both mainstream
18     and aboriginal sectors of society.  For many years
19     government agencies and aboriginal peoples have sought
20     ways and means by which to provide impetus and
21     opportunity for varied and meaningful job creation. 
22     APTN can become such a vehicle because it has the
23     potential to provide diverse opportunity and stimulus
24     to a multitude of people; a people, I must add, with a
25     profusion of untapped energies, talents and resources. 


 1     Writers, actors, artists, technicians, support
 2     personnel, directors, producers and a myriad of others
 3     could discover work opportunities and subsequent
 4     economic benefit fro APTN.  Truly, this is important. 
 5     Yet even more important are the social, psychological,
 6     cultural and aesthetic values inherent in an
 7     opportunity that has been a long time coming.
 8  2778                 Canada's vast expanse lends to the
 9     isolation and physical segregation of our aboriginal
10     people.  Settlements are scattered from coast to coast,
11     border to border.  The allure of larger towns and
12     cities has resulted in the scattering of aboriginal
13     people from the Atlantic to the Pacific.  The advent of
14     APTN has the potential to provide a focal point for the
15     sharing of cultures and ideologies and the linking of
16     people and communities.
17  2779                 Yesterday you mentioned something
18     about the programming.  I was thinking about it last
19     night, how embryonic in nature it is at this time.  I
20     remember when our first child arrived.  It was so neat. 
21     Then my wife and I said:  "Now what do we do?  Where do
22     we go from here?"  So we nurtured, and we helped, and
23     we assisted.  Now we have this beautiful 24-year old
24     who is out travelling the world.  We have other
25     children as well, who are equally as beautiful.  But it


 1     was the beginning that was so fearful, and the end
 2     product has become so beautiful.  In a sense I see APTN
 3     having that kind of potential.
 4  2780                 Canadians need to know the history
 5     and culture of our aboriginal peoples, just as the
 6     Cree, the Mohawk, the Blackfoot, the Carrier, the
 7     Nahani and the Inuit, to mention but a few, need the
 8     opportunity to share a heritage rich in tradition and
 9     diverse in history.  The opportunity for sharing is
10     limitless.
11  2781                 Just envision, if you will, the
12     benefits of an historical visit depicting the
13     contributions and sacrifices which aboriginal people
14     made in the first and second world wars and in the
15     Korean conflict.
16  2782                 I have a number of uncles who served
17     in these positions.  I am named after two of them who
18     didn't come back.
19  2783                 It was interesting to hear various
20     people mention these different aspects.  They are
21     important.
22  2784                 Just imagine the sense of pride and
23     self-worth conjured up when true-life heroes are
24     depicted and portrayed in a positive light equal to all
25     races, to all Canadians.  APTN can provide this kind of


 1     sharing, this kind of focus, this kind of revelation. 
 2     What will be required first and foremost, however, is
 3     opportunity.
 4  2785                 Unfortunately, our aboriginal people
 5     simply do not have enough in the way of the role models
 6     and heroes that CTV, CBC and a host of other networks
 7     are so expert at creating.  This is, in part, simply
 8     due to the fact they did not have the resources, the
 9     expertise, nor the medium to promote and create on such
10     a grand scale.  But things are changing, thankfully.
11  2786                 The granting of this licence can
12     further augment the positive.  This opportunity is
13     tremendously important, just as heroes are important.
14  2787                 Graham Greene and Chief Dan George
15     have long been two of my favourites because invariably
16     they represented dignified success.  These aboriginal
17     men, whose sense of honour and accomplishment were
18     portrayed through their characters, became a source of
19     verification that aboriginal people can succeed in any
20     venue.  They became heroes worthy of imitation.  They
21     set standards for us to emulate and strive for.  They
22     personified realized dreams, signifying that it was
23     okay for us to dream too.  And they came to us via the
24     big screen or television.
25  2788                 APTN can begin to provide this kind


 1     of opportunity to the aboriginal community and to
 2     society at large.  Aboriginal people need to see the
 3     Ted Nolans and the Buffy St. Maries of the sporting and
 4     music industry experiencing success outside the
 5     community.
 6                                                        1300
 7  2789                 The following anecdote is an example
 8     of what I mean.  Sunday evening a group of my
 9     aboriginal students and I are going to watch the
10     Belleville Bulls play hockey against the North Bay
11     Centennials in North Bay where I live.  When I first
12     asked the students what game they wanted to see, the
13     answer right away was, "Belleville, we want to go see
14     the Bulls."  I said, "Why Belleville?  They're not
15     doing that great."  They all said, "Well, Jeremy
16     Cheechoo plays for them.  Don't you know that?"  Like,
17     "Come on, Mr. Swanson, get on the ball here."  But I
18     did know that.
19  2790                 What struck home once again to me was
20     that these kids need heroes, and they're constantly
21     seeking them out.  They have their needs, wants and
22     dreams, just like you and I.  We saw that with the
23     class of kids that were here today and yesterday.
24  2791                 They showed me one of their videos
25     they had done, and I said, "Wow."  I wasn't surprised


 1     by it, but I was impressed by it.  The rest of Canada
 2     needs to see and understand that there are many, many
 3     positives with being associated to being an aboriginal
 4     Canadian.  What better vehicle is there to deliver this
 5     message and, at the same time, promote opportunity.
 6  2792                 In order for a consistent abatement
 7     of the biases and misunderstandings inherent in
 8     aboriginal-white relations to occur, there must be an
 9     established medium through which opportunity to
10     influence the perceptions and realign misconceptions is
11     provided.  APTN can do that. Educating people is
12     extremely important.  That's what I do.  That includes
13     all people.
14  2793                 Highlighting the works of acclaimed
15     authors such as Emily Carr and Pauline Johnson equates
16     to sharing and educating.  Introducing the works of
17     young authors and artists such as Connie Cook and David
18     Bouchard provides incentive and bridge building. 
19     Presenting stone sculpture, pictorial displays, their
20     history and construction, services the uneducated as
21     well as the educated.  The non-native world needs to
22     see aboriginal Canadians as contributors, as men and
23     women of character, as creative self-reliant
24     individuals with a great deal to offer.
25  2794                 Aboriginal people, particularly our


 1     youth, need to realize that there is hope and yes,
 2     indeed, success is attainable.  APTN can foster this
 3     vision.  It will provide varies opportunities. 
 4     Aboriginal people of all ages, backgrounds, education,
 5     needs and wants will obtain access to a medium through
 6     which countless ideas can be nurtured, myths exposed,
 7     achievements highlighted and people promoted.  What an
 8     exciting proposition!.  What an opportunity!
 9  2795                 The benefits to be derived from APTN
10     are as profound as they are varied.  The potential for
11     making significant social, psychological and
12     educational gain is real.  It is easy to imagine how
13     the establishment of a long-distance education program
14     beamed directly into your home can enable the
15     disenfranchised; how it can stimulate challenge and
16     inform; how the introduction of telecasts focusing on
17     aboriginal communities from various regions across
18     Canada would help dissolve the sense of isolation that
19     impedes success; of how better understanding can be
20     nurtured and promoted through exposure and education;
21     of how opportunity can be advertised and successes
22     shared; of how proactive lifestyles are better suited
23     to producing positive lifelong results.
24  2796                 There often exists a tremendous void
25     in the lives of the youth that I interact with on a


 1     daily basis.  Missing is that essential sense of
 2     belonging, of being part of something that makes us all
 3     feel valued.  APTN could, through creative programming,
 4     go a long way towards alleviating this very real, very
 5     vital need.
 6  2797                 In essence, this application is about
 7     far more than being granted the right to broadcast. 
 8     Your decision will be historically and socially
 9     significant.  Your judgement will determine whether or
10     not you feel the provision of this opportunity for our
11     aboriginal people is essential to their wellbeing, to
12     their continued growth, to their ability to bring
13     together peoples from all sectors and regions of
14     society, and to extinguish many of the prevalent biases
15     and prejudisms too often accepted as truisms.
16  2798                 In closing, being the helpful sort
17     that I am and Mr. Nice Guy, let me offer just one
18     thing.  If there's one thing that ever comes out of my
19     ten minutes of fame or, as Andy Warhol would say, your
20     five minutes, and when you deliberate on all the facts
21     and figures and put it all together, if there's any one
22     thing that you could remember, I would hope that it
23     would be the fact that embodied in no other application
24     will you find such a meaningful opportunity, that once
25     in a lifetime opportunity to make a significant


 1     difference in the lives of so many of our aboriginal
 2     and non-aboriginal people and, in so doing, setting the
 3     stage for an even better Canada.
 4  2799                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 5     Swanson.  Commissioner Cardozo.
 6  2800                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
 7     Madam Chair and Mr. Swanson.
 8  2801                 Andy Warhol said 15 minutes of fame.
 9  2802                 MR. SWANSON:  I'm like you with
10     numbers, I didn't have my calculator.
11  2803                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Let me keep
12     you going for another five minutes and ensure that you
13     get all 15.
14  2804                 You talk about that once in a
15     lifetime opportunity to make a significant difference
16     to the lives of people, and you open by saying, every
17     now and then we find ourselves presented with an
18     opportunity to truly make a difference.  I'm sure that
19     all the people who put the APTN application together
20     feel that way and I think that all of us at the
21     Commission also feel that way.
22  2805                 But as I've learned very fast with
23     licensing, for every great, positive idea, there are
24     legitimate ideas as to why you should not go that
25     route.  What's even worse is when we're in a


 1     competitive situation and you get seven good
 2     applications and there's one spot.
 3  2806                 In this case I don't know if there's
 4     even a question as to whether there is that one spot. 
 5     So, let me ask you.  You mentioned CBC and CTV. 
 6     They've indicated in their written submissions, CBC has
 7     said they're in favour of the channel, they think it's
 8     a good idea but it shouldn't be carried on a mandatory
 9     basic basis.  CTV hasn't quite said what they think
10     about it, but they don't believe it should be licensed
11     on a mandatory basic basis.  That is one of the key
12     issues we're looking at here.
13  2807                 Let me ask you as a principal, you
14     mentioned the aboriginal students, I take it the school
15     is a fairly multi-cultural school?
16  2808                 MR. SWANSON:  Yes, about 10 per cent
17     of our population are aboriginal students.  They come
18     from as far away as Fort Albany and up into Winisk,
19     Attawapiskat, Moosonee, Moose Factory, and then we have
20     Quebec Cree that come in as well.
21  2809                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If licensing
22     this station would mean putting them on basic and
23     ordering the cable companies to carry them on sort of
24     the basic level without having to ascribe to an upper
25     tier and without having a choice as to whether or not


 1     they would carry it, the concern is that you may have
 2     to bump another channel further up in numbers.
 3  2810                 My guess is the 10 per cent who are
 4     aboriginal would not mind that, and among the others,
 5     there would be a variety, perhaps many, who would not
 6     mind that either and some who would.  How would you, if
 7     you were standing up at an assembly and trying to
 8     convince the kids or the parents of your school that
 9     this is a worthwhile channel, what's your message to
10     them as to why they should support not only the APTN,
11     but putting them on basic and paying the 15 cents a
12     month extra for it?
13  2811                 MR. SWANSON:  It's the Canadian thing
14     to do.  That's how I would probably begin.
15  2812                 In my population, the people that I
16     have and the people that I deal with -- and I can only
17     speak from my own personal experience -- they would be
18     very receptive to this kind of programming simply from
19     the fact that in our work environment up in North Bay,
20     where we're certainly not a southern environment,
21     people are acutely aware of many of the needs of the
22     native community.  We foster tremendous amounts of
23     interaction, not only amongst aboriginal Canadians but
24     all of our minority groups so that they're promoted and
25     there's a lot of sharing and there's a lot of


 1     interaction and support there.
 2  2813                 So, the sell wouldn't be a really
 3     difficult one.  What we have to do and emphasize is
 4     that the provision of opportunity for all Canadians has
 5     to be part and parcel of our television networks and of
 6     our broadcasting and of our programming.  I think my
 7     question would be:  Let me ask you a question.  We have
 8     100 per cent taken up with the various networks now. 
 9     What percentage is allocated to aboriginal Canadians,
10     and the answer would be none probably.  And I would
11     say, well, we just want a little share.  We just want
12     to get our foot in the door.  We think it's long
13     overdue because here's what we're going to do for you.
14     We're going to do something for you -- and I think
15     that's the key.  We're going to provide a service
16     unlike any other.
17  2814                 And then I would start into my
18     salesman's pitch and away I would go.  But that is
19     where I would begin.
20  2815                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What kind of
21     takeup would you get?
22  2816                 MR. SWANSON:  I think I'd get very
23     positive feedback.  People would say to me, "Well, what
24     are you going to do?  What are you going to show?  How
25     are you going to do it?"


 1  2817                 I saw a tape out in the foyer today
 2     done by a group of students.  If I had an example, I
 3     would use that as an example just to say, "This is the
 4     kind of positive programming that you're going to get."
 5  2818                 There's another thing that I have
 6     people come to me all the time about, and they say to
 7     me, "There's so much garbage on TV; there's so much
 8     violence; there's so much this and so much that.  What
 9     alternatives do we have?" or "How do I control the TV
10     that my children watch?"  They're always looking for
11     answers and for different forms of entertainment and
12     education.  What a wonderful opportunity APTN is going
13     to be if it's allowed to become a reality, very unique
14     in its programming.
15  2819                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Let me read to
16     you from one of the letters that came in.  This is from
17     a student by the name of Priscilla Keys.  For the
18     record, it's submission number 300.  I believe -- I
19     can't tell from here for sure -- she's one of the
20     students from Maniwaki.  I'll read part of it, and I'd
21     like to get a sense of whether you hear similar sorts
22     of things.
23                            "Most channels we have are based
24                            on sports and other networks
25                            that I'm not interested in.  I


 1                            was just thinking, if they are
 2                            putting this network called APTN
 3                            on cable, I want to know when
 4                            they're putting it on.  I'm
 5                            willing to learn about what was
 6                            done in the old days.  I would
 7                            like to see some networks about
 8                            pow-wows and arts and crafts and
 9                            how our ancestors lived in the
10                            old days.  Maybe the APTN can
11                            put more movie series than I can
12                            ask for.  [And this is the line
13                            I like]  Native cooking would be
14                            the best for my grandmother."
15     Including that last line or not, does that capture a
16     sense of what some of the aboriginal students at your
17     school would be interested in?
18  2820                 MR. SWANSON:  Very much so.  I think
19     you could expand on that even more so.
20  2821                 What we're finding now is that
21     children are better informed, more aware of the various
22     cultural differences, although some still have a very
23     difficult time with it and need support to get through
24     it.
25  2822                 But I think what you'll find is that


 1     the programming once again will grow and become more
 2     diverse and more pertinent.  Yes, cooking is certainly
 3     an aspect that would be considered, of course, but I'm
 4     very confident that, given the opportunity, they're
 5     going to surprise all of us with the creativity part of
 6     it and the kinds of programming that can be done.
 7  2823                 We have a drama club going at my
 8     school.  Some of my native kids are quite involved in
 9     it.  The kids are writing this, it's their own drama
10     production, just to give you a feel for this type of
11     thing.  It's called The Five Families.  What they're
12     going to do is they're going to dramatize the history
13     of five different families.  We have a Vietnamese
14     family; we have an aboriginal family; we have some
15     Scots in there; and French Canadian; and one group
16     says, "Well, we're just Canadian."  The kids are going
17     to put this together.  These are grades 7, 8 and 9 kids
18     who are doing this type of thing.  Adults, I'm sure,
19     can become even more creative.  But very pointed and
20     very much in tune to what some of the needs are.
21  2824                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If they're
22     planning to get that play on TV, they'd better get
23     their proposal in quick in case we do licence.
24  2825                 MR. SWANSON:  We have bids from NBC
25     and --


 1  2826                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks very
 2     much for that.  I'm glad I was able to get you the full
 3     15 minutes, as Andy Warhol would want.  Thanks for your
 4     presentation.
 5  2827                 MR. SWANSON:  Thank you for the
 6     opportunity.
 7  2828                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  When Priscilla's
 8     grandmother watches CPAC, she may conclude that
 9     Priscilla doesn't like her cooking.
10  2829                 Thank you, Mr. Swanson.  Have a good
11     trip back.
12  2830                 MR. SWANSON:  Thank you.
13  2831                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And keep those kids
14     in line.
15  2832                 MR. SWANSON:  That we do.  Thank you.
16  2833                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We'll adjourn for
17     lunch until 2:30.  Nous reprendrons à deux heures et
18     demie.
19     --- Recess at / Suspension à 1315
20     --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1430
21  2834                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.
22  2835                 Madam Secretary?
23  2836                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
24  2837                 I would like now to invite the
25     Government of the Northwest Territories, Education


 1     Culture & Employment, to present their intervention.
 2  2838                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
 3     gentlemen.
 5  2839                 MR. CLEVELAND:  Thank you, Madam
 6     Chairman.  My name is Mark Cleveland.  I am appearing
 7     on behalf of the Honourable Charles Danson, the
 8     Minister of Education, Culture and Employment with the
 9     Government of the Northwest Territories. 
10     Unfortunately, Mr. Danson legislative schedule got
11     changed at the last minute, so he is unable to
12     participate so he asked if I would come down.
13  2840                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Give him our
14     regards.
15  2841                 MR. CLEVELAND:  Thank you.  I am the
16     Deputy Minister and I am joined by Mr. Peter Crass, who
17     is the broadcasting coordinator for the department.
18  2842                 I would like to just begin by
19     thanking you all for the opportunity to speak in
20     support of the application of Television Northern
21     Canada.  As you are most likely aware, the Government
22     of the Northwest Territories has been a very active
23     partner in the development of TVNC and is a major
24     supporter of Aboriginal broadcasting.  The GNWT has
25     held a seat on the board of directors of TVNC since its


 1     beginnings.
 2  2843                 In 1992, or since 1992, TVNC has been
 3     broadcasting to every community in the Northwest
 4     Territories as well as the Yukon Territory, Nunavut and
 5     northern Labrador.  It has proven extremely successful
 6     in providing a service which even with the best will in
 7     the world, no other network in existence can offer.
 8  2844                 There are regular programs on CBC
 9     North, using Aboriginal languages and occasional on the
10     CBC national network which reflect and depict some of
11     the issues and concerns of Aboriginal people.  However,
12     the programming on TVNC is indeed unique.
13  2845                 TVNC is unique in that clearly it is
14     owned and operated by its membership and with the
15     exceptions of the Government of the Northwest
16     Territories and Yukon College, its full members are not
17     all not-for-profit Aboriginal communications societies
18     and corporations who are responsible to boards of
19     directors which represent the Aboriginal communities
20     each of those societies is formed to serve.
21  2846                 The programming is planned, produced
22     and broadcast by Aboriginal people, primarily for the
23     benefit of Aboriginal people.
24  2847                 TVNC has given northern Aboriginal
25     people their voice.  It has provided Aboriginal


 1     communities have been able to access programming
 2     dealing with issues, lifestyles, political changes,
 3     economic realities and cultural and linguistic
 4     aspirations from an Aboriginal perspective and not
 5     necessarily from the perspective of albeit well meaning
 6     non-Aboriginal producers and programmers.
 7  2848                 At the same time, non-Aboriginal
 8     viewers within the TVNC broadcast area have been
 9     exposed to cultures, the languages, beliefs and the
10     world view of Aboriginal people.
11  2849                 I would just like to say at this
12     point, Madam Chair, that I may be one of the few people
13     in this room that never watched "Seinfeld", but I have
14     watched a lot of TVNC.
15  2850                 The programming on TVNC has had a
16     profound effect on those of us who have been fortunate
17     to receive the signal.  We are more aware and have a
18     deeper understanding and respect for all of the
19     cultures and languages of the north.
20  2851                 The programming of TVNC has not only
21     addressed the specific needs of distinct cultural and
22     linguistic groups, but it has also become a major force
23     in fostering communication, understanding, respect and
24     positive collaboration between cultures across the
25     north.


 1  2852                 The experience of the past six years
 2     of TVNC can be viewed as an extremely comprehensive
 3     pilot project for Aboriginal communications across
 4     Canada.  New communication skills have been developed
 5     and certainly jobs for Aboriginal people have been
 6     created.
 7  2853                 Northern people do have a better
 8     understanding of each other's culture and the viewing
 9     audience has tuned in with both enthusiasm and with
10     pride.  We believe the evolution of TVNC from a
11     northern Aboriginal television network into a national
12     Aboriginal television network is a natural step to take
13     and the Government of the Northwest Territories is
14     fully supportive of that effort.
15  2854                 I would like to make it clear that in
16     doing so, we as a northern government are not seeking a
17     position on the board of directors of the APTN and we
18     support the proposal that the new board of directors be
19     exclusively Aboriginal.
20  2855                 We are confident that the separate
21     northern switching mechanism that is proposed by TVNC
22     in its application will still offer us the opportunity
23     of broadcasting proceedings from the Northwest
24     Territories legislative assembly and NWT educational
25     programming on a regional rather than a national basis.


 1  2856                 TVNC has worked diligently to
 2     incorporate the needs and aspirations of southern
 3     Aboriginal organizations and independent producers to
 4     ensure that the national network truly represents
 5     national interests.
 6  2857                 Those national interests include not
 7     only the interests of not only Aboriginal people but of
 8     all Canadians.  Just as TVNC programming has helped to
 9     build cultural pride within the northern Aboriginal
10     cultures and has successfully nurtured understanding of
11     Aboriginal issues within the northern non-Aboriginal
12     population, so too will APTN provide both a voice for
13     all Canadian Aboriginal cultures and a forum for
14     discussion with all non-Aboriginal Canadians in
15     developing an understanding and mutual respect between
16     the groups.
17  2858                 TVNC was born in an era of adequate
18     government funding.  APTN will be born in an era of
19     greatly reduced government funding, an era of necessary
20     self-sufficiency.  A major and positive difference
21     between TVNC and APTN, apart from its broadcast area,
22     is that, with the support of the commission, mandatory
23     carriage on cable systems throughout the country will
24     ensure that Aboriginal broadcasting will not only reach
25     all Canadians but it will also become self-sustaining.


 1  2859                 The income derived from the mandatory
 2     carriage, as described in the application, will
 3     primarily be used to offer direct support to Aboriginal
 4     production in the form of broadcast licence fees.  This
 5     support is critical to the development of Aboriginal
 6     programming and to the development of the Aboriginal
 7     production sector within the national broadcasting
 8     environment.
 9  2860                 The Aboriginal people of Canada
10     deserve such consideration and recognition of their
11     vital role within this nation.  Canadians deserve and
12     need access to the first cultures of this country and
13     APTN will provide the first real exposure of aboriginal
14     cultures to many Canadians.
15  2861                 The range and depth of programming
16     that is planned for APTN, conceived, produced and
17     broadcast by Aboriginal people of Canada will go a long
18     way to ensuring the inclusion of Aboriginal people in
19     the Canadian consciousness.
20  2862                 Public support for the new national
21     network I think has been well demonstrated by TVNC in
22     their application and its viability has been well
23     demonstrated.  Inclusion of this service within basic
24     cable packages across the country can only serve to
25     strengthen the Canadian broadcasting industry and our


 1     nation as a whole.
 2  2863                 I would encourage the commission to
 3     grant the national broadcast licence with mandatory
 4     carriage on cable systems to the Aboriginal people of
 5     Canada for the benefit of all Canadians.
 6  2864                 Thank you, Madam Chair.
 7  2865                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 8     Cleveland, Mr. Crass.
 9  2866                 I find interesting in both your
10     written application intervention and your oral one
11     today that you refer to it TVNC as having been a pilot
12     project.  I assume you mean a pilot project for TVNC. 
13     And that is an interesting perspective to add to the
14     comfort of its success that it is building on something
15     that has been there already.  And I am not sure that we
16     have heard that perspective, you know, as succinctly
17     put as characterizing it as a pilot project for what is
18     to come if they are granted the licence.
19  2867                 I also see that although in your
20     written intervention, you had indicated that you sat on
21     their board, that you would not now.  What is your --
22     you say you are comfortable with the project but you
23     want the legislation to be broadcast.
24  2868                 What I would like to comment on is
25     the extent of your level of comfort considering,


 1     despite the separate feed of your level of comfort of
 2     the, this transformation of the pilot, so to speak, to
 3     APTN with regards to your territory, whether you have
 4     some concern about what it may do to the programming
 5     overall vis-à-vis the north.
 6  2869                 MR. CLEVELAND:  Thank you very much.
 7  2870                 I should, I think, make sure that it
 8     is clear and there is no misunderstanding.
 9  2871                 As a pilot project, I think you
10     framed it very well.  It certainly is an explanation of
11     moving from something that is proven in our case to a
12     bigger situation.  I would not want to in any way
13     denigrate the work of TVNC.
14  2872                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, no, absolutely
15     not.  It would be that there is a level of comfort
16     there perhaps about the success of the bigger project
17     than if you hadn't had your hand in it at all.
18  2873                 MR. CLEVELAND:  Yes, thank you.  In
19     terms of the development of the application and our
20     comfort level, I believe that the working relationship
21     we have had in the territories has been a very positive
22     one.
23  2874                 We believe that the arrangements that
24     have been proposed in the application continue -- will
25     continue to meet northern needs as well as expanding


 1     the programming so that, in fact, northern Aboriginal
 2     communities will have a greater opportunity than they
 3     have now to see some of the activities that are
 4     occurring across Canada.  Certainly the feedback we
 5     have received has been very positive in that regard. 
 6     And, as we mentioned in our documents, we really do not
 7     have any concerns about the proposed approach as it
 8     relates to programming.  Thank you.
 9  2875                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Wonderful.  If you
10     are pleased, we are pleased.  And we certainly thank
11     you for making what is obviously a long trip to come
12     and see us.  I am sure the applicant appreciates it and
13     so do we because it indicates the extent to which you
14     are comfortable with the project with regard to your
15     people, so to speak, and that is helpful.
16  2876                 Thank you, Mr. Cleveland, Mr. Crass.
17     We hope you have a good trip back and a nice weekend.
18  2877                 MR. CLEVELAND:  Thank you very much. 
19     I appreciate the time of the commission.
20  2878                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.
21  2879                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
22  2880                 The next intervenor will be the Inuit
23     Tapirisat of Canada.
25  2881                 MS FORD:  Good afternoon, Madam


 1     Chair, Commissioners.
 2  2882                 My name is Violet Ford, and I am
 3     speaking on behalf of the Inuit Tapirisat of Canada. 
 4     The Inuit Tapirisat is a national organization reaching
 5     the Inuit of all the regions of the Inuit across the
 6     north.
 7  2883                 Our mandate spans a broad range of
 8     political, economic, social and cultural concerns but
 9     communications and particularly Aboriginal broadcasting
10     have always been especially important to us.  And I am
11     pleased to have this opportunity to address you today
12     on the future of television in northern Canada.
13  2884                 As some of you may know, ITC has a
14     long history of support for Aboriginal broadcasting. 
15     In 1978, we initiated "Inukshuk", the pilot television
16     project that later became the Inuit Broadcasting
17     Corporation.  We believed then and believe now in the
18     importance of autonomy for Aboriginal broadcasters. 
19     And so IBC has operated as a completely independent
20     entity since its incorporation in 1981.  But we remain
21     very proud of these achievements as well as the
22     extraordinary work of Okalakatiget, TNI, and the
23     Inuvialuit Communications Society and indeed the
24     accomplishments of all of TVNC's member organizations.
25  2885                 These broadcasters have created a


 1     whole in new industry in our communities.  They fought
 2     for and won recognition for Aboriginal language in the
 3     Broadcast Act.  They produced cutting-edge programming
 4     on shoe-string budgets and they have been instrumental
 5     in promoting and preserving the languages and the
 6     cultures which form the heart of Aboriginal Canada.
 7  2886                 It is difficult to explain to
 8     southerners just what Aboriginal television has meant
 9     to us.  When we are growing up in our communities,
10     there were simply no Inuit on television at all.  We
11     appeared occasionally as comic characters in
12     commercials or in TV movies, usually portrayed by
13     Japanese actors or Anthony Quinn.
14  2887                 All that changed with the
15     introduction of IBC, Okalakatiget, TNI and ICS. 
16     Suddenly, we were seeing ourselves, hearing our own
17     music and stories, watching events in our own
18     communities, all produced by our own directors and
19     film-makers.  Our people were on television.  Even
20     better, our people were making television.
21  2888                 I know the same thing was happening
22     in Sioux Lookout, Ontario, and in Thompson, Manitoba.
23     Right across Canada, Aboriginal peoples were seeing
24     themselves through their own eyes for the first time.
25  2889                 Our programs were on late at night,


 1     squeezed in between "The National" and "Barney Miller"
 2     reruns, but we were on air.
 3  2890                 And then, in 1992, came TVNC and
 4     suddenly there was a whole channel that was about us.
 5  2891                 It was a strange new territory at
 6     first.  Inuit were not used to sharing programmings
 7     with Cree, Dogrib, Slavey and Ojibway producers, but
 8     our communities were absolutely fascinated.
 9  2892                 We had not had the opportunity to see
10     how our northern neighbours lived.  And their stories,
11     their lives, seen through the eyes of our producers
12     were a revelation to us.  We hope the Commission will
13     make that same opportunity available to all Canadians.
14  2893                 From an Inuit perspective, that is a
15     capsule history of Aboriginal television in Canada. 
16     Since 1982, we have seen extraordinary growth, the
17     emergence of mature, sophisticated broadcast
18     organizations, the evolution of multifaceted
19     broadcasting services and the emergence of
20     extraordinary talent, cutting-edge video-makers like
21     Martin Kreelak and Sak Kunuk, who began their careers
22     with IBC.  That is the sunny side of the story.
23  2894                 On the darker side, the Aboriginal
24     broadcasters of Canada have been subjected to funding
25     cuts or freezes literally every year since 1984.  Both


 1     the broadcasters and TVNC itself have lost significant
 2     amounts of funding.  The message from government has
 3     been consistent, if not always pleasant.  The
 4     Aboriginal broadcasting industry must seek revenues
 5     from sources other than government.
 6  2895                 Starting well, the broadcasters have
 7     taken up that challenge.
 8                                                        1445
 9  2896                 Well, the broadcasters have taken up
10     that challenge with imagination and vigour.  They have
11     marketed their programming, they have launched
12     corporate subsidiaries, and now, in submitting this
13     proposal, they are seeking the support of the
14     Commission to expand their services into southern
15     Canada.  The additional revenue they generate through
16     this expansion will flow directly into production:  it
17     will provide critical support to existing northern
18     broadcasters and nurture the growing independent
19     aboriginal production community in northern and
20     southern Canada.
21  2897                 This is a truly win/win situation. 
22     Aboriginal broadcasters will gain much needed revenue,
23     and southern viewers will finally get to experience
24     Canada's most unique and distinctive broadcast service.
25  2898                 What will the extension of this


 1     service into southern Canada mean?  First, it will mean
 2     that thousands of Inuit and First Nations people living
 3     in cities will have the opportunity to plug back into
 4     their own cultures.  But more important, as many of the
 5     interveners have mentioned, it means that southern
 6     Canada will finally see us through our own eyes. 
 7     Television conveys the subtleties of culture more
 8     effectively than any other medium.  Many thousands of
 9     studies have been written about Inuit psychology or
10     Ojibway culture or Cree humour; not one of those
11     studies can convey our reality as effectively as a
12     single half-hour episode of Super Shamou, IBC's Inuit
13     superhero in gumboots.  APTN will present the full
14     spectrum of contemporary Aboriginal life through news,
15     drama, humour, how-to programming and documentaries,
16     and for the first time Canada and the world will see us
17     as we are.
18  2899                 We assume we don't have to convince
19     the Commission that APTN deserves national carriage on
20     its artistic merits.  APTN is more than a cultural
21     curiosity.  Even at its current low level of funding,
22     the network has consistently broken new ground and
23     provided a forum for some of Canada's most exciting new
24     filmmakers and video producers.
25  2900                 We also assume the Commission


 1     recognizes the need for an aboriginal perspective in
 2     news and current affairs.  In recent years, media
 3     coverage of aboriginal issues in Canada have created a
 4     widespread perception of reservation-bound natives
 5     racked by poverty and alcoholism, who appear
 6     periodically on TV screens waving guns on a blockade
 7     with another incomprensible demand.  This sad and
 8     dishonest cliché is reflected in dwindling public
 9     interest in aboriginal issues.
10  2901                 Most Canadians have a very limited
11     understanding of the positive political, social and
12     economic links between Canada and its First Nations. 
13     How many Canadians know that the new Territory of
14     Nunavut will come into existence on April 1st of next
15     year?  How many understand the issues underlying the
16     Nisga'a Land Claims Settlement?  The licensing of TVNC
17     will finally provide us all with a service that does
18     justice to the vitality and complexity of native
19     Canada.
20  2902                 The final issue we would like to
21     address is the question of cost, the $1.80 per year per
22     subscriber that TVNC requires as the price of survival. 
23     Yesterday Abraham noted that that was the price of a
24     coke and a chocolate bar.  In our settlements, that's
25     the price of a coke or a chocolate bar.  In any case,


 1     given that 68 per cent of southern viewers surveyed
 2     said that they would gladly pay the necessary 15 cents
 3     per month for TVNC, the point would seem to be moot.
 4  2903                 We realize the Commission must deal
 5     with a complex range of regulatory and legislative
 6     issues and we respect your need to operate within that
 7     framework.  But Inuit tend to be direct, and perhaps in
 8     this case we can help you get right to the heart of the
 9     matter at hand.  The decision facing the Commission is
10     this:  Will you integrate Canada's aboriginal peoples
11     into Canada's television system?  Or, for the sake of
12     15 cents a month, will you relegate us once again to
13     the margins?
14  2904                 Commissioners, many of us have used
15     the word "challenge" in our presentations.  In ITC's
16     view, the aboriginal broadcasters in this room have met
17     every conceivable challenge for the last 20 years.  In
18     the seventies they met the challenge of developing
19     pilot projects like Ironstar and Inukshuk in remote
20     communities across Canada.  In the eighties they meet
21     the challenge of creating full-service, professional
22     broadcasting organizations in an era of dwindling
23     resources and political support.  In the nineties they
24     met the challenge of initiating the world's first
25     aboriginal television network.  The broadcasters have


 1     met every challenge.
 2  2905                 Now, Commissioners, the challenge is
 3     yours.
 4  2906                 APTN has a service to provide.  It is
 5     undeniably important, it is popular, and it is the most 
 6     Canadian service imaginable.  So it is up to you.  If
 7     you believe that aboriginal people have something to
 8     say to the rest of Canada, if you believe that our
 9     culture, our vision and our way of life are in fact an
10     integral part of this country, then give us our
11     national voice.  Let us bring you into our communities. 
12     Let us give you the best of our music and introduce you
13     to the best of our artists.  Let our writers and our
14     journalists tell you our stories.
15  2907                 Our culture is our greatest treasure,
16     and through APTN we want to share that treasure with
17     Canada.  Commissioners, we hope you accept.
18  2908                 Thank you.
19  2909                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you -- it is
20     Ms Ford?
21  2910                 MS FORD:  Yes.
22  2911                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your eloquence is
23     such that I am sure any questions from me at this stage
24     would be clumsy, so I won't ask any.
25  2912                 MS FORD:  Thank you.


 1  2913                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We thank you very
 2     much for your presentation which is, in and of itself,
 3     helpful to the process and we thank you for coming.
 4  2914                 MS FORD:  Yes, and, by the way, this
 5     is Terry Rudden.  He is an advisor for ITC on
 6     communications issues.
 7  2915                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon.
 8  2916                 MS SANTERRE:  Excuse me, Ms Ford, can
 9     I have a copy of your presentation, because of the
10     particularity of the names that you used in your
11     presentation, for the court reporters?
12  2917                 MS FORD:  Yes.
13  2918                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you.
14  2919                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
15     much.
16  2920                 Madam Secretary.
17  2921                 MS SANTERRE:  I would like now to
18     invite Mr. Ted Montour to present his intervention.
19  2922                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon,
20     Monsieur Montour.  Proceed when you are ready.
22  2923                 MR. MONTOUR:  Thank you.  Thank you,
23     Madam Secretary.
24  2924                 I am pleased to be here today in
25     unceded Algonquin territory, and I would like to begin


 1     by expressing my thanks, Madam Chair, to Commissioners
 2     and to CRTC staff for extending to me the invitation to
 3     appear in support of my friends at TVNC/APTN.
 4  2925                 I come from the Grand River Territory
 5     of the Six Nations in southern Ontario.  I can remember
 6     when the first televisions appeared in my community and
 7     in my family.  Where we lived we were within broadcast
 8     range of the upper New York State, Buffalo flagship
 9     stations of the U.S. networks, as well as the CBC.
10  2926                 My earliest memories of television
11     include the CBC news, Ed Sullivan, Warner Brothers
12     cartoon characters, the Three Stooges, the Walt Disney
13     show, Hockey Night in Canada, Hopalong Cassidy, the
14     Lone Ranger and Tonto, the Cisco Kid, and Dizzy Dean
15     and PeeWee Reese doing the baseball game of the week.
16  2927                 I saw war on the television news,
17     lessons in politics and international conflict, made
18     all the more real to me by the fact that I had family
19     subject to the draft in the United States.  There were
20     individuals whom I knew from my home community, boys
21     with whom I had gone to school or played ball or
22     hockey, enlisted in various branches of the United
23     States armed forces and who were sent to Vietnam.
24  2928                 I have also, as the eldest son of a
25     teacher, been an avid reader almost all of my life --


 1     texts, novels, magazines, newspapers -- and I listened
 2     to radio, rock, news and sports.
 3  2929                 I have had the good fortune to meet
 4     some of the individuals to whom I was first introduced
 5     by the television:  George Armstrong, Jay Silverheels,
 6     Pierre Trudeau, Patrick Watson and Laurier LaPierre, to
 7     name a few.
 8  2930                 I have enjoyed seeing the talents and
 9     accomplishments of friends like Gary Farmer and Graham
10     Greene on both the small and big screens, although not
11     enough.
12  2931                 I have spent eventful years here in
13     the National Capital, dealing on both sides of the
14     camera with television journalists through every round
15     of constitutional talks since 1982, through the tragic
16     death of Minnie Sutherland and through the tense and
17     dangerous summer of 1990.
18  2932                 I have also watched my two pre-school
19     nieces effortlessly manipulating the television
20     satellite remote control -- not to mention hiding it
21     from their father to tease him -- or watching
22     themselves on tape, celebrating a birthday or pow-wow
23     dancing or figure skating.
24  2933                 All of this anecdotal information to
25     say that I have been observing and absorbing the


 1     influences of television most of my life.
 2  2934                 We can see from the results of TVNC's
 3     consumer research conducted earlier this year that both
 4     aboriginal and non-aboriginal Canadians agree on the
 5     need, and the value for the Canadian consciousness and
 6     experience, of having a national aboriginal television
 7     service.
 8  2935                 I asked myself, in the course of
 9     writing my letter of support for TVNC and deciding to
10     seek the opportunity to appear and intervene, what
11     observations and persuasion I could offer while taking
12     up the valuable time of everyone here today.  I found a
13     part of my answer in Gary Farmer's Supplementary Brief,
14     Schedule 29 in the TVNC application, and I quote,
15     "... the opportunity for programming to be developed on
16     concepts of peace and harmony."  I found another part
17     of my response in a recent edition of The Sports
18     Network's Off The Record interview show featuring
19     former NHL Coach of the Year Ted Nolan.  And I found
20     yet another part of my answer as I was writing this and
21     listening to the discussion on Newsworld's "Benmerguy
22     Live" broadcast about the Nisga'a Treaty in British
23     Columbia.
24  2936                 Aboriginal artists, producers and
25     broadcasters need more and better access to development


 1     and production resources and to bigger and broader
 2     audiences than they now have.  Canadian viewers will
 3     benefit from the stories, perspectives and advice that
 4     are available from aboriginal Canada.  We have our own
 5     unique ways of telling Canadians about Canada and we
 6     have the storytellers to convey the message.
 7  2937                 I had occasion earlier this summer to
 8     speak with a successful Canadian TV drama producer who
 9     had a keen and genuine interest in telling stories from
10     the point of view of aboriginal dramatic characters. 
11     Her belief that Canadian commercial television, and
12     audiences, would respond positively to more such
13     characters and stories and her willingness to back up
14     that belief with action were profoundly heartening to
15     me.
16  2938                 Today's cable television viewing
17     universe includes History Television, where I have seen
18     several films from Ted Turner's "Native Americans" film
19     series and, more recently, a story about highly
20     decorated aboriginal veteran Tommy Prince, who has
21     already been mentioned here today, and I ask myself,
22     why not on an aboriginal channel.
23  2939                 I see the work of established and
24     emerging aboriginal artists, speaking of both our
25     traditions and our contemporary lives, in languages and


 1     media that are universally understood and accessible.
 2  2940                 As I said, we don't lack for stories
 3     or storytellers.
 4  2941                 I am a sports fan.  I see Ted Nolan
 5     being interviewed on TSN, graciously and deftly
 6     fielding questions which practically beg a bitter or
 7     rancorous answer about his treatment at the hands of
 8     the NHL.  I cannot help but wonder how he might respond
 9     to more empathetic, but equally pointed, questions from
10     an aboriginal interviewer.
11  2942                 I see the Creator's game, lacrosse,
12     Canada's national sport, enjoying unprecedented growth
13     and popularity internationally, with six new competing
14     nations at this year's quadrennial World Championships
15     in Baltimore, Maryland.  The Iroquois Nationals
16     finished fourth overall in a field of eleven national
17     sides at that tournament.
18  2943                 The National Lacrosse League
19     professional series, in the winter months, fills arenas
20     in Buffalo and New York and Philadelphia, and has its
21     playoff and final games carried on ESPN.  The NLL has
22     one new and still-struggling Canadian franchise and to
23     date no Canadian TV coverage.  Yet several years ago,
24     during the last major league baseball players' strike,
25     TSN coverage of the Mann Cup Canadian Senior Major


 1     Lacrosse finals between Six Nations and New Westminster
 2     drew and held credible numbers.  The producer, the
 3     play-by-play and colour announcers all told me the same
 4     thing -- sponsorship.
 5  2944                 The North American Indigenous Games
 6     draw more athletes and participants than the Maccabia
 7     Games, and tie site alternates between Canada and the
 8     United  States.  I can think of no greater incentive
 9     for young aboriginal athletes to participate and
10     compete than the prospect of one's performance being
11     seen live on TV by friends and family back home and
12     across the country.
13  2945                 While on the subject of television
14     sports and the dearth of aboriginal sports television
15     and coverage in particular, let us consider the
16     possibility and the opportunities for partnership that
17     I see here.  In the same way that arts and culture and
18     fiction or dramatic television production by and for
19     aboriginal Canadians benefit from collaboration and
20     partnership with mainstream and commercial TV
21     broadcasters and producers, so also should aboriginal
22     sports programming producers contemplate partnerships
23     with the TSN's and the Sportsnets of the world.
24  2946                 Turning to news and public affairs, I
25     mentioned that I had been watching CBC Newsworld


 1     earlier this week when Ralph Benmerguy's topic for the
 2     day was the Nisga'a Treaty signed this summer in
 3     British Columbia.  I was successful for the first time
 4     in actually getting through and on the air.  Instant
 5     national dialogues such as this can only benefit
 6     Canadians.
 7                                                        1500
 8  2947                 Eight years ago, I entered a newly
 9     opened restaurant in the Byward Market in search of
10     some lunch, and a television.  I was hungry and,
11     because the building in which the Assembly of First
12     Nations' offices were then housed was not hard-wired
13     for cable, I was looking for the latest live Newsworld
14     coverage of the confrontations, with the SQ at
15     Kahnasetake and Kanawake and in other First Nation
16     communities across Canada.
17  2948                 The events of the so-called Oka
18     crisis of 1990 and the arresting and disturbing images
19     of Quebec police, and then Canadian soldiers, invading
20     First Nation communities are burned into my memory. 
21     The "raw and unedited" live broadcasts, and the
22     commentary from increasingly shocked and fatigued CBC
23     news-readers and analysts literally put a newly minted,
24     and not at all widely watched, Newsworld on the
25     Canadian and international TV broadcast map.


 1  2949                 Each time I returned to my same seat
 2     in this restaurant, I was joined by the staff, other
 3     patrons, and colleagues and fellow volunteers who were
 4     involved in keeping the AFN offices open seven days a
 5     week, around the clock, throughout that summer.
 6  2950                 Never have I had a more graphic
 7     object lesson in the power of television to galvanize
 8     viewers and shape public opinion, nor a more moving
 9     testimonial to the interest and support for First
10     Nations among "ordinary" Canadians.
11  2951                 The other jarring realization for me
12     was the almost total absence of analysis, opinion, or
13     other commentary from aboriginal journalists.  A
14     handful of spots, a barely perceptible nod to
15     "balance", a vacuum noted and commented upon by
16     international correspondents and observers, and most
17     glaringly more air time for reporters in or at the
18     Kahnasetake Treatment Centre compound -- talk about
19     becoming "part of the story".
20  2952                 Nor was I impressed by the seemingly
21     inexhaustible capacity of the Canadian media to swallow
22     whole, and then regurgitate, the "operative statement"
23     of the day from the Canadian Forces spinners.
24  2953                 In this, and many other situations in
25     which I have been involve personally and


 1     professionally, the explanation, the excuse, for such
 2     obvious, not to mention conscious, omissions, has been
 3     this precious "balance" or "impartiality".
 4  2954                 Aboriginal professionals are
 5     arbitrarily deemed to be somehow inherently incapable
 6     of being objective about aboriginal issues.
 7  2955                 I see no such rationalization offered
 8     for the nationalist media of Quebec, or the right-wing
 9     broadcasters and journalists in the west and elsewhere
10     in Canada, nor indeed for feminist commentators.  No
11     one questions their capability to be objective about
12     the PQ or the Bloc, or the Tories or Reform, or
13     "women's issues" -- certainly not openly.
14  2956                 Approval and endorsement by this
15     Commission for the Aboriginal Peoples Television
16     Network, in particular for mandatory carriage, will
17     send a message of balance and fairness far stronger
18     than any individual producer, programmer, or outlet can
19     deliver.
20  2957                 Thank you; merci.
21  2958                 LA PRÉSIDENTE:  Merci, Monsieur
22     Montour.
23  2959                 Conseillère Pennefather.
24  2960                 CONSEILLÈRE PENNEFATHER:  Merci,
25     Madame la Présidente.


 1  2961                 Thank you for your presentation.  I
 2     really appreciate you, as has been previously done here
 3     today, taking us through a personal history and your
 4     relationship with television and its particular
 5     influence.
 6  2962                 Listening to the first part, the
 7     shows you were describing puts us pretty well in the
 8     same age bracket.  But I think your point is a little
 9     different, although from my point of view it did form a
10     view of the world that was not exactly reflective of my
11     gender either or of other influences.
12  2963                 I think you have been quite eloquent
13     and clear on that point.
14  2964                 I noted in your written submission
15     that you are a communications expert and a policy
16     adviser, and I noted your comment:
17                            "For many years, Canadian
18                            commentators, opinion leaders,
19                            legislators have espoused the
20                            need and the place for an
21                            aboriginal presence and voice in
22                            the country's communications
23                            media."
24  2965                 It is the larger picture, which I
25     think is important.


 1  2966                 I have two questions.  One is how you
 2     feel the APTN service will influence the mainstream
 3     media.  How will it change the presence of aboriginal
 4     journalists on mainstream media, et cetera?
 5  2967                 Certainly as a viewer you will be
 6     able to get a point of view that is different in
 7     watching a service, should it be licensed, such as
 8     APTN.  But on the main services, what change will there
 9     be there?
10  2968                 My second point is perhaps the one I
11     would like you to start with, and that is:  How do you
12     see a service like APTN situating itself in the global
13     communications environment?
14  2969                 MR. MONTOUR:  If I could, I would
15     refer to a conversation I had about a year and a half
16     ago with an acquaintance, a friend of my mother's
17     actually, who along with his wife was her host in
18     Europe several years back when she was representing our
19     community government in Europe.  This gentleman and his
20     wife were both journalists, professors of journalism
21     based in Paris.
22  2970                 They were actually the source or the
23     inspiration for some of my comments about the
24     international impact about how things like Oka were
25     perceived outside of our borders.


 1  2971                 I think quite frankly -- and again,
 2     building on the comments from the presentation team,
 3     particularly about the exportability and potential for
 4     productions by aboriginal producers in Canada to other
 5     countries.
 6  2972                 I think that APTN and the producers
 7     that provide it with programming will find very, very
 8     ready markets internationally for their product.  I
 9     would not at all be surprised if they were to find
10     downstream -- maybe more closely downstream than they
11     would like -- that their correspondents, their on-air
12     people, their producers and suppliers become the
13     subjects of international demand, as well as domestic
14     demand here.
15  2973                 I think for good or ill -- and I
16     don't think there is very much ill or downside to it --
17     that having greater exposure for aboriginal
18     journalists, whether it be through an aboriginal medium
19     or otherwise, can only lead to more and better
20     opportunities for those individuals and encourage our
21     young people to pursue those kinds of professional
22     goals as well.
23  2974                 Although I would hesitate to
24     characterize it too deeply in this way, but if APTN
25     were to be kind of a farm system for journalism in


 1     general -- one of may I might add, these days -- that's
 2     all to the good.  I think ultimately if someone who is
 3     seen for a couple of years on APTN suddenly becomes
 4     seen on CTV or CBC, maybe they will go from becoming
 5     the aboriginal J.D. Roberts of MuchMusic to the John
 6     Roberts of CBS News.  That's all to the good, as far as
 7     I am concerned.
 8  2975                 It makes room for people who are
 9     coming up.
10  2976                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think
11     that "opportunities" point is very important.  I hear a
12     story that has a familiar ring to it about being
13     successful abroad before being recognized in ones own
14     country.
15  2977                 But I have a feeling that --
16  2978                 MR. MANTOUR:  But we can come home
17     again.
18  2979                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.  I
19     have a feeling that you were actually looking at this
20     from many different points of view.
21  2980                 What brought me to ask you the
22     question also about the global environment was access
23     to different points of view.  You quoted from the
24     supplementary brief:
25                            "The opportunity for programming


 1                            to develop on concepts of peace
 2                            and harmony."
 3  2981                 It is in the context of the global
 4     environment that I was interested in how Canada's
 5     positioning will then be changed, or not, by an APTN as
 6     part of our environment and what that will mean in the
 7     global communications world.
 8  2982                 MR. MONTOUR:  To be as brief as I
 9     could be about it, I think that Canada's place,
10     Canada's reputation, cannot be but enhanced,
11     particularly when it comes to notions of peace.  Our
12     international diplomatic reputation for peacekeeping
13     and peacemaking being what it is, I see a considerable
14     amount of compatibility there.
15  2983                 Quite frankly, things like the notion
16     of peace as it is currently used in the world
17     vocabulary could do with a bit of recasting and
18     updating.  But in terms of communications and
19     communications media, I believe that not only in those
20     countries elsewhere in the world where there are
21     indigenous populations and which I see certainly as
22     being prime international supporters and potential
23     markets as well, but elsewhere where there are
24     considerable numbers of people with a keen personal
25     interest, such as in western Europe, whether it be


 1     Germany or France or Belgium, or wherever, about North
 2     American -- or American, I should say -- aboriginal
 3     peoples, I think that, as I said before, it can't do
 4     anything but enhance and embellish Canada's standing
 5     internationally and our reputation.
 6  2984                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
 7     very much for those comments, and thank you for being
 8     here today and sharing your thoughts with us.
 9  2985                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
10     Montour.
11  2986                 MR. MONTOUR:  Thank you.
12  2987                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary?
13  2988                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madame
14     Chair.
15  2989                 The next intervention will be by the
16     Canadian Cable Television Association, Association
17     canadienne de télévision par câble.
18  2990                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon, Mr.
19     Watt, Mr. Thomson, Ms Kirshenblatt.
20  2991                 You are not Mr. Stursberg, I hope.
21  2992                 MR. THOMSON:  No, thank goodness.
22  2993                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was asking Ms
23     Kirshenblatt.
24  2994                 MR. THOMSON:  No, thank goodness.
25  2995                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I made that mistake


 1     before, where a gentleman appeared instead of a lady,
 2     and somehow or other -- I forget what confusion I
 3     caused, but it was serious.
 5  2996                 MR. THOMSON:  Good afternoon, Madam
 6     Chairperson, Commissioners.  My name is Jay Thomson,
 7     and I am Vice-President, Legal and Regulatory Affairs,
 8     for the Canadian Cable Television Association.
 9  2997                 With me today are Dave Watt, CCTA's
10     Senior Vice-President of Economics and
11     Telecommunications, and Bev Kirshenblatt, CCTA's
12     Regulatory Counsel.
13  2998                 Our President, Richard Stursberg, was
14     to have been here.  He was here yesterday. 
15     Unfortunately, he could not be here today because he is
16     travelling outside of the country.
17  2999                 Madam Chairperson and Commissioners,
18     both the CRTC and the cable industry want to create
19     more choice for consumers.  The Commission's strategy,
20     as set out in its 1997 Vision statement, is to
21     encourage competition to create consumer choice.
22  3000                 Less than a year ago, the regulations
23     governing broadcasting distribution undertakings were
24     updated to reflect the current environment of
25     competition.  For the cable industry, the future is


 1     digital distribution, which will increase channel
 2     capacity so that there will be room for many new and
 3     exciting services.
 4  3001                 We believe that it is against this
 5     backdrop that the Commission should consider what is
 6     the best way to introduce new services to Canadians.
 7  3002                 It is important for the Commission
 8     and others, including the applicant, to appreciate that
 9     CCTA supports the concept of a national aboriginal
10     programming service -- one that both reflects the needs
11     and aspirations of native people across Canada, and
12     serves as a bridge between natives and non-natives.
13  3003                 What we are opposed to, however, is
14     the mandatory carriage arrangements, because such an
15     approach contradicts the whole notion of customer
16     choice.  In our view, new services must be licensed in
17     a way that ensures greater customer choice and not less
18     choice.  This means digital carriage licensing with an
19     option for analog carriage.  In this way, the people
20     who want the service can purchase it and pay the
21     appropriate fee.
22  3004                 Since TVNC's application was filed,
23     the Commission has approved an application for the
24     Canada-wide distribution of the TVA network.  In that
25     decision, the Commission determined that the mandated


 1     rebroadcast of a signal must not result in any direct
 2     or indirect costs to consumers.  The TVNC application
 3     by contrast would lead to direct and forced rate
 4     increases to consumers.
 5  3005                 TVNC's proposed service, if licensed,
 6     carries significant financial implications.  We
 7     estimate that the ongoing costs to deliver the signal
 8     into cable households would be nearly $33 million a
 9     year, or 36 cents per month per subscriber.
10  3006                 This amount is based on APTN's
11     monthly subscriber fee of 15 cents, an SRDU signal
12     downlink fee estimated at a minimum of 5 cents -- and
13     it could actually be very much higher -- and the 16.2
14     cents per subscriber cost established by the Commission
15     for each of a cable company's channels.
16  3007                 There are also one-time costs
17     associated with the CRTC forcing a service on basic. 
18     These include expenses related to informing customers
19     of the change in the line-up through channel line-up
20     stickers and explanatory letters and, in order to
21     receive the signal, additions to headed equipment.
22  3008                 We estimate that the cable industry
23     would incur one-time charges of nearly $4.8 million,
24     with line-up sticker costs at 40 cents per subscriber
25     and headend expenses at $3,500 each, for 500 headends.


 1                                                        1515
 2  3009                 Of these costs, given present
 3     regulations, only 20 cents per month -- the 15-cent
 4     signal fee and the 5-cent SRDU fee -- could be passed
 5     on to consumers.  This would leave 16 cents per
 6     subscriber per month in recurring costs and $4.8
 7     million in one-time costs unrecovered.  For these
 8     costs -- for the channel costs and the costs of
 9     building the plant that delivers the signals -- the
10     question arises:  How can we recover them?
11  3010                 Consider that the cable industry has
12     increased average channel capacity from 45 to 73
13     channels during the 1990s by investing $3.8 billion
14     over the past decade.  The present value cost of a
15     channel, as determined by the Commission, is in the
16     order of $90 million.  Given the strict regulation of
17     basic rates, the forced placement of APTN on basic
18     service would mean that cable companies could not
19     recover one cent of the $90 million investment to
20     provide the basic one-way analog channel capacity.
21  3011                 In southern Ontario in the past six
22     months two other channels have been ordered onto basic
23     service, CrossRoads TV and, just recently, TVA.  Again,
24     under the Commission's basic rate regulations, the
25     costs associated with distributing these services


 1     cannot be recovered.
 2  3012                 Should APTN also be forced onto basic
 3     this would mean three new channels on basic without the
 4     possibility of cost recovery.
 5  3013                 This is an unsustainable situation. 
 6     We believe that these channels must be made available
 7     in a manner which allows cable operators to recover
 8     their costs.
 9  3014                 Moreover, the problems with mandatory
10     carriage are not restricted to the economics of the
11     cable business.  As well, mandatory carriage will have
12     a negative effect on consumers.
13  3015                 As I noted earlier, the pass-through
14     provisions in the BDU regulations would allow 20 cents
15     to be added to each customer's bill if APTN is licensed
16     in the way they propose.  We do not think that the
17     Commission in this competitive environment should be
18     contemplating a regime under which it forces consumers
19     to pay for services they may not want.
20  3016                 As well, many cable companies will
21     not have sufficient capacity to accommodate the
22     proposed service.
23  3017                 I would be pleased to discuss
24     specific examples with the Commission.
25  3018                 In those cases, in order to make room


 1     for the channel, if ordered on basic, another channel
 2     must be moved to a tier, if there is room, or perhaps
 3     dropped completely if there is no room.  Everyone is
 4     disrupted when channel line-ups change.  Basic only
 5     subscribers will lose an existing service or will have
 6     to pay more to retain it if it is bumped to a
 7     discretionary tier.
 8  3019                 Tier subscribers, in turn, may lose
 9     an existing service, since there is only a fixed number
10     of analog channels.  Simply put, customer disruption,
11     lost services and higher prices lead to customer
12     dissatisfaction.
13  3020                 Given all of the above, we think that
14     the Commission should adopt a flexible approach to
15     allow the placement of services in a manner that would
16     both suit the market and the service.  It is our
17     position that the service should be licensed for
18     digital carriage, with an option for analog carriage,
19     as the Commission did in the last round for the
20     majority of English specialty services.  This has
21     proven to be highly successful for consumers, the
22     services and the cable industry.
23  3021                 This approach would allow customers
24     to determine what services they do and do not want to
25     receive.  During the transition from analog to digital


 1     technology some cable operators may even have the
 2     capacity to carry the proposed service on an analog
 3     channel and may decide to do so due to market demand.
 4  3022                 As we have stated on numerous
 5     occasions, the industry will be motivated to add
 6     services, rather than restrict access, as it rolls out
 7     its digital offering.  Accordingly, we do not think
 8     that there is a need to rely on legislative provisions
 9     to force carriage.  If licensed for digital, the
10     applicant's service will effectively be assured
11     distribution and thus assured the opportunity to prove
12     its value to Canadians.
13  3023                 As you can see, Commissioners, our
14     concern is not with the merits of the TVNC application. 
15     The bigger question is:  On a going forward basis, how
16     can the cable industry recover its costs for the
17     investments it is required to make?  All of the issues
18     we have raised regarding channel costs, one-time costs,
19     accommodating new channels and bumping existing
20     channels are part and parcel of this general concern. 
21     A business that cannot recover its costs is no business
22     at all.
23  3024                 These are our comments and we welcome
24     your questions.
25  3025                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.


 1     Thomson.
 2  3026                 Commissioner Pennefather ...
 3  3027                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 4     Madam Chair.  Good afternoon.
 5  3028                 I would like to start at the end of
 6     your presentation today and at the beginning of your
 7     written presentation and go through some of the points
 8     you have raised.
 9  3029                 I had some previous questions and I
10     would like some further explanations on what you
11     prepared today.
12  3030                 My first question is pretty
13     straightforward.  You begin your intervention and you
14     say at the end of your comments today that you support
15     this application:  that is, a national aboriginal
16     programming service.  Why do you support this
17     application?
18  3031                 MR. THOMSON:  The cable industry is
19     always interested in increasing the number of choices
20     that we can make available to our customers.  We are
21     always interested in finding new programming
22     opportunities that respond to the interests of
23     Canadians.
24  3032                 As you have been shown by the
25     applicant in its appearance, and as you have heard from


 1     their supporting intervenors, there is interest in this
 2     service.  There are merits to this service.  It is a
 3     service that we think we can offer to our subscribers
 4     and that subscribers will be interested in taking on a
 5     discretionary basis.  Therefore, it will improve the
 6     whole package that we offer to our customers.  That is
 7     why we support it.
 8  3033                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In looking
 9     at your support and the attractiveness of this concept
10     to a number of Canadians, you also emphasize or mention
11     the fact that it is a national service that is
12     proposed, and I think you also say that it has an
13     objective of ensuring a broader availability of
14     aboriginal programming.
15  3034                 As I understand it, though, one of
16     the key features of assuring that is that, in fact, it
17     is in the interest of this service and in the national
18     interest to have it available across the country.
19  3035                 It is key, in other words, according
20     to the presentation we have received, to its viability
21     and to its reaching its goals and its objectives and
22     its very fundamental mandate to have that capacity to
23     reach Canadians from coast to coast to coast.
24  3036                 This is where I think the nub of the
25     question comes.  How do you see that being


 1     accomplished?
 2  3037                 You support the application and the
 3     purposes of this application, and there is an objective
 4     here which you have also mentioned in terms of
 5     increasing the availability of aboriginal programming. 
 6     This particular application certainly purports to do
 7     that, but it will only do that if it has a national
 8     reach.
 9  3038                 Do you agree with that?  If you do,
10     what are the ways that that can be assured?
11  3039                 MR. THOMSON:  First of all, I think
12     it is up to the applicant to demonstrate the extent to
13     which they need certain regulatory approaches in order
14     to meet their business plans.  We are not here to
15     necessarily discuss the applicant's business plans.
16  3040                 But what we can tell you, and what
17     the thrust of our intervention is, is that the cable
18     industry, the Canadian broadcasting system, is moving
19     to digital.  That is our future.  That is the future of
20     all of the services that Canada will have in the
21     future.
22  3041                 For us, digital roll-out will be on a
23     national basis.  It has already started.  It is already
24     available on a national basis through DTH providers. 
25     There are MDS providers who are on digital.  Cable has


 1     started to roll out digital in certain markets, and we
 2     will be moving forward on that plan in the next year.
 3  3042                 Our view is a national digital
 4     service that we provide to our customers.
 5  3043                 Any programming service that is
 6     offered, therefore, will also have national
 7     distribution.  It will be made available to Canadians
 8     across the country on a digital basis.
 9  3044                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  When is
10     this future?
11  3045                 I don't mean that facetiously.  It is
12     a factual question, because you have referenced other
13     licensing procedures where that was key.  And I believe
14     there were dates given and those dates changed, for a
15     number of reasons.
16  3046                 It is a very important question
17     because in supporting this application you are saying
18     that its future lies in the digital future.  But when
19     will that be?  And if it is a serious proposal on your
20     part, that is to say that you suggest we wait for
21     digital to be available before this licence is granted, 
22     it is important to know when that will be.
23  3047                 MR. THOMSON:  As we have had the
24     opportunity to explain to the Commission on other
25     occasions, obviously, the roll-out of digital is


 1     something that we are motivated toward.  It is not
 2     always in our hands.  We are waiting for the new open
 3     cable boxes that will be available within the next
 4     year.
 5  3048                 Once those boxes are available we
 6     will be moving forward aggressively with digital roll-
 7     out plans.
 8  3049                 Yes, we are still waiting for those
 9     boxes, but they will, at some time in the near future,
10     we strongly hope, will be available, and at that time
11     the roll-out across the nation will begin.
12  3050                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Is there
13     any range of timing on that?
14  3051                 Certainly, would it be in time for
15     the proposed launch date of this service, mentioned
16     earlier today?
17  3052                 MR. WATT:  As you know, Shaw has
18     rolled out 70,000 boxes at the current time in Calgary
19     and Toronto.  Shaw has committed to rolling out in
20     other locations over the next year, and has stated to
21     you in the capacity reports that they intend to meet
22     the 15 per cent penetration of digital boxes in their
23     serving territories by September of next year.
24  3053                 The other major MSOs are behind Shaw. 
25     There will be a roll-out by those MSOs over the next


 1     year.  Whether they would be willing to make a
 2     statement to the effect that they anticipate reaching
 3     15 per cent penetration, I don't know.  Shaw has
 4     certainly made that commitment.
 5  3054                 I can tell you that the other major
 6     MSOs will be rolling out within the next six to nine
 7     months.
 8  3055                 MR. THOMSON:  We are not the only
 9     ones who are optimistic about the future of digital
10     cable.
11  3056                 As you heard yesterday from the BSSI
12     representatives, they are of a strong belief that the
13     cable industry will be rolling out digital as well. 
14     They see it as our competitive response to their
15     availability of digital, which is very much the case.
16  3057                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  If APTN
17     were licensed primarily on digital, with an option of
18     analog carriage, when do you expect that it would be
19     broadly available?  Because you made the point that
20     digital access would guarantee this national coverage.
21  3058                 And what do you mean by "national
22     coverage"?
23  3059                 MR. THOMSON:  As we said, in a
24     digital environment we will be looking to add services. 
25     So, to the extent that APTN is available as a digital


 1     service and we have a digital roll-out, it will be
 2     carried, because we will have capacity for it and we
 3     will need to fill it up.
 4  3060                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Just so I
 5     understand, when you say that, how many Canadians will
 6     have the service?  Does that mean 70,000 Canadians,
 7     because the boxes have been --
 8  3061                 What is the timeframe for a fully
 9     national distribution of the service on a digital
10     basis?
11  3062                 MR. WATT:  I may have misled you a
12     little bit.  You may think when I say "major MSOs" that
13     I am only referring to the four largest:  Vidéotron,
14     Rogers, Shaw and Cogeco.  That is not the case. 
15     Halifax Cablevision, Fundy, et cetera, Cable Regina, so
16     on and so forth, also have digital plans in the works. 
17     So it would spread from coast to coast.
18  3063                 I think your question is trying to
19     probe us for a specific forecast in terms of numbers as
20     we go forward.  It is a difficult question.
21  3064                 As you know, the penetration of
22     analog boxes today is in the 8 to 9 per cent range of
23     the population.
24  3065                 It really does become a question as
25     to the additional attractiveness that the DBC boxes


 1     will bring in terms of the quality of the picture and
 2     the variety of programming choices that can be made
 3     available on the boxes.  There are limits with respect
 4     to analog boxes.
 5                                                        1530
 6  3066                 So, we anticipate with good
 7     programming that the penetration of digital boxes will
 8     be far in excess of what has been achieved with
 9     analogue boxes.  But we can't give you today an
10     absolute estimate as to the numbers.
11  3067                 But, as Mr. Thomson indicated, and as
12     I did as well, these boxes will roll out over the next
13     six to nine months and they will be of the latest
14     standard, which should make them more appealing to
15     people.  They will also be able to offer Internet
16     services, which should also make them more appealing. 
17     We do hope to have a much greater penetration of these
18     boxes.
19  3068                 MR. THOMSON:  Part of our proposal,
20     as we've outlined, is digital with an option for
21     analogue carriage, which is the same approach that has
22     been taken for the majority of the English language
23     services that were licensed recently.  They've done
24     very well.  They have national distribution.
25  3069                 So, the possibility for those systems


 1     that may not be rolling out digital as quickly as
 2     others is where there's demand to put it on an analogue
 3     tier and make it available that way.
 4  3070                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes, I
 5     wanted to get to that next.  Let's leave the digital
 6     for a moment and your proposal is optional to analogue
 7     in the current environment.
 8  3071                 What is the potential for APTN being
 9     carried on the analogue in terms of capacity?  Is this
10     list given to me because it's to demonstrate lack of
11     capacity of availability?
12  3072                 MR. THOMSON:  This is an example of
13     two cable systems, two Rogers cable systems, one in
14     Kitchener-Grand River, and the other one in Ottawa.  It
15     demonstrates, at least in these two systems, that there
16     is no available channel capacity; there are no open
17     channels; there are no vacant channels that can be
18     filled at this time.
19  3073                 So that if you were to force any
20     service onto basic in either these two examples, then
21     something would have to be dumped.
22  3074                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Are you
23     currently not increasing your analogue capacity,
24     though, to accommodate the needs of digital?
25  3075                 MR. THOMSON:  Yes, and that's because


 1     we need that analogue capacity to convert to digital. 
 2     If we don't have it, we can't move to digital.
 3  3076                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Is this
 4     extra capacity not what you're using, though, in the
 5     meantime to add new services as you did just a couple
 6     of weeks ago?  I think new services were added to the
 7     analogue channels.  This is where I'm not too sure I
 8     understand why there isn't the possibility in the
 9     analogue world to have some availability for a new
10     service, since some were just added recently.
11  3077                 MR. WALL:  The 78-channel systems
12     that you see before you here are a 550 megahertz
13     system.  Many of our members have had 450 megahertz
14     systems.  So when they say they are expanding capacity,
15     they are expanding up from a 60-channel system to the
16     78-channel system.  These systems are already at the
17     78-channel level.
18  3078                 Further, to pick up on Mr. Thomson's
19     point, a plan for digital in many of the systems is to
20     take the 78-channel system and take three of the
21     channels, analogue channels, compress them so that you
22     then derive 24 channels.  And this is in effect what
23     Shaw has done in both Calgary and Toronto, and that
24     gives you the additional capacity for a digital
25     service.


 1  3079                 Now, you do have to have those three
 2     analogue channels available to digitize.  So, in order
 3     to prepare or provide a digital offer, we do have to
 4     take some of these channels to digitize.  Now, there
 5     are other systems that are expanding beyond 550
 6     megahertz.  In those systems you face a couple of
 7     situations.  One, it may be the case that they would
 8     have an incremental analogue channel, but as cable
 9     systems roll out, the way you do it is
10     street-by-street, neighbourhood-by-neighbourhood, so
11     that you would not have the additional channel
12     throughout the entire serving territory until you had
13     actually completed the entire exercise.
14  3080                 Maybe to backtrack just a shade,
15     because I think there's maybe some confusion with the
16     capacity reports, we did take a look at the Mediastats
17     number that indicated 89 per cent of subscribers would
18     have one or more vacant channels.  We went to the very
19     document that the Commission raised with the applicant
20     this morning, the capacity report, from the information
21     filed with the Commission.  What you see there
22     addresses your comment that you'd be putting more
23     channels on and you found room.  That is in fact the
24     case based on the Mediastats numbers.  There was
25     additional capacity.  We filled that with the third


 1     tier.
 2  3081                 With respect to the comment this
 3     morning that, gee, there are a lot of alphanumeric
 4     services, et cetera, et cetera, there was no magic in
 5     finding the channels for the third tier.  The third
 6     tier channels came from reducing the number of
 7     pay-per-view channels and reducing the number of
 8     alphanumeric channels.  So that pretty much what you
 9     see here is the product of a culling of the
10     non-programming offerings and a cutback of the
11     pay-per-view offerings.
12  3082                 So, I hope that clarifies the
13     capacity issue somewhat.
14  3083                 Maybe even a more important point is
15     to impress upon you that capacity costs money.  It
16     costs, as I said, $90 million to provide a channel. 
17     The carriage of a channel on basic allows us no return. 
18     So, we're confronted with, as you know, $5 billion of
19     loans, which has gone to build the infrastructure that
20     provides the 78 channels.  We have interest expense of
21     in excess of $600 million a year.  It was interested to
22     me that APTN actually was receiving their money from
23     the Royal Bank at a very low rate -- the prime plus one
24     and a quarter per cent.  We probably should send their
25     people in to negotiate some of our loans.  They


 1     obviously did a very good job.
 2  3084                 The point of this being that we would
 3     all like to have more capacity.  To add capacity costs
 4     money.  This is a concern we have with not only this
 5     application but with respect to the other channels that
 6     have been put on basic recently.  We have a large debt. 
 7     We have to pay that interest expense.  We need channels
 8     to digitize.  We have to spend the money to buy the
 9     boxes.  It's, as we state in our opening statement, an
10     unsustainable situation.
11  3085                 We would be overjoyed for the federal
12     government to grant $50 million a year to run APTN, pay
13     for the programming, pay for the channel costs, pay for
14     the downlink.  That would be wonderful, but
15     unfortunately we're not in that situation.  From our
16     perspective we need to recover our costs and that's a
17     primary concern for us here today.
18  3086                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  You've
19     given us that analysis.  I certainly had some questions
20     which would have given you the opportunity to look at
21     the incremental costs.  I'll come back to that in just
22     a minute.
23  3087                 I have a couple other questions on
24     capacity and choice.  Very quickly, then, your
25     alternative solution to APTN's proposal of mandatory


 1     carriage is digital with option to analogue carriage. 
 2     You suggest, as well, that APTN should be added to the
 3     eligible satellite lists, although they are currently
 4     already on both Part II and Part III of the lists.
 5  3088                 Would this achieve the objective of
 6     broader availability of aboriginal programming to
 7     Canadians?  We noticed that even if they are on the
 8     list, currently cable systems have not elected to carry
 9     TVNC.  So, in those terms if it's optional to analogue,
10     how is that a solution to a more broad distribution of
11     aboriginal programming?
12  3089                 MR. THOMSON:  First of all, while
13     TVNC is on the eligible satellite list, as I believe
14     you heard this morning, it's not being uplinked by
15     Cancom.  So, it's not being made available.
16  3090                 In any event, as we understand it,
17     the APTN service will be much different than the TVN 
18     service.  Certainly the applicant went to great lengths
19     to explain the differences in the additions that
20     they're going to introduce with respect to their
21     programming.
22  3091                 Our fundamental argument on the
23     choice issue is that there should be a flexible
24     approach that allows greater opportunity for consumers
25     to make choices as to which programming services they


 1     take and pay for.  APTN filed consumer research to
 2     demonstrate that there's a strong interest in their
 3     service and a willingness to pay for it.  If, indeed,
 4     they're confident in their consumer research, then they
 5     should be willing to go out and sell their service to
 6     cable operators, to consumers, and to ensure by calling
 7     upon those people that say that they're willing to buy
 8     it, they're interested in buying it, to in fact do so
 9     and ask their cable companies to carry it.  On that
10     basis, it will receive wide distribution.
11  3092                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I'm sure
12     they'll be happy to comment on that to you, but I am
13     curious as to why you feel this mandatory carriage
14     contradicts the whole notion of customer choice.  It
15     would appear to me that what we're talking about is
16     increased choice in terms of aboriginal programming as
17     a goal and a concept of an aboriginal service.
18  3093                 When other services are offered and
19     added to packages, how have you determined that in fact
20     those services meet what you call I think it's in your
21     written application fit individual markets?  Is that
22     the basis on which you would decide, with your flexible
23     approach, which services fit individual markets?  What
24     markets are you talking about there?
25  3094                 MR. THOMSON:  The best of all


 1     possible worlds for us and for consumers, we believe,
 2     would be for a service such as APTN and other services
 3     to be offered as part of the digital package, made
 4     available across the country, carried across the
 5     country in those digital packages because, as I said,
 6     we all need services, and then consumers will have the
 7     opportunity to make their choices.  We're not yet in
 8     that world.
 9  3095                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Are you
10     talking a pick-and-pay world?
11  3096                 MR. THOMSON:  Ultimately there will
12     be strong aspects of pick-and-pay in the digital
13     environment.  But we're not there yet.
14  3097                 So the next best step is to look at
15     who's the next closest to the consumer in terms of
16     choosing which services are put out there and made
17     available to them.  At this stage, that's the cable
18     operator.  The cable operator is closest to its market. 
19     It knows what its subscribers want to watch, what they
20     want to pay for.  It hears from its subscribers on a
21     regular basis.
22  3098                 So, it is the one at this stage that
23     is closest to the market and, therefore, able to best
24     assess market demand and make the appropriate choices
25     that deal with consumer demand and also with the myriad


 1     of business issues that must arise whenever a new
 2     service comes along and decisions have to be made about
 3     where it goes, how it's marketed, if it goes on at all.
 4  3099                 The worst approach, in our opinion,
 5     with respect, is for the Commission to make those
 6     decisions, the Commission being further away from the
 7     market than obviously the cable operator.  The
 8     Commission make a decision, it's imposed upon all
 9     markets without an opportunity for the cable operator
10     to assess whether that service is appropriate for
11     basic, whether it should be on the first, second or
12     third tier, and the other decisions that go along with
13     that.
14  3100                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I assume,
15     though, you do not mean the Commission does not have
16     any influence on the broadcasting system and our role
17     is not to assure that all aspects of the Broadcasting
18     Act are followed through in the broadcasting system of
19     this country, or are we further away from that too?
20  3101                 MR. THOMSON:  I'm not attempting in
21     any manner to undermine the Commission's mandate or the
22     powers it has to exercise that mandate.
23  3102                 What I'm saying is that the
24     Commission itself is moving to a more competitive
25     environment.  It's a new world out there.  The old


 1     world, where cable operators were a monopoly, there
 2     were obligations imposed, there were costs that they
 3     had to bear, that's an old world.  That's not the world
 4     in which we operate now.  We have to respond to DTH
 5     providers; we have to respond to MDS providers; we have
 6     to make decisions in our own market that are in the
 7     best interests of our business, and that is in the best
 8     interest of our customers.
 9  3103                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think we
10     share a desire to do what's in the best interest of
11     Canadians and the public.  In that light, let me turn
12     it around a little bit so I understand this question
13     more thoroughly from your point of view.
14  3104                 I think you admitted that what's been
15     demonstrated is interest on the part of many Canadians
16     in such a service, and that -- I think the word
17     "competition" was used earlier -- it can compete, it
18     can provide competition on a number of levels.
19  3105                 Is your only reason for not accepting
20     mandatory carriage the business case that it's a money
21     loser for you?  Is that the bottom line for you?
22  3106                 MR. THOMSON:  We have two reasons. 
23     We have the reason that it's a problem for consumers,
24     and I guess that ultimately comes back --
25                                                        1550


 1  3107                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Is it also
 2     an advantage for consumers?  As you said, if it is that
 3     good, it would be picked up.  So there is an advantage
 4     there, it is not just a problem.
 5  3108                 MR. THOMSON:  I do not think it is an
 6     advantage for consumers.  It may be an advantage for a
 7     group of consumers who are strongly interested in that
 8     service and are willing to pay for it, to have it
 9     forced upon their basic package.  It is not the best
10     for consumers to have it forced upon them if they do
11     not want it and they do not want to pay for it.  If you
12     put it in a discretionary package that is the best
13     approach for consumers.
14  3109                 But ultimately what is best for
15     consumer is best for us.  In the end that is a business
16     decision and moves to our bottom line and then gets
17     into this whole issue of the costs associated, as Dave
18     went through for us with respect to increasing
19     capacity.
20  3110                 MR. WATT:  I just -- one issue and
21     you might be coming to this later, but just in case you
22     are not, in terms of the.
23  3111                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Take this
24     opportunity to say everything you have to say, because
25     I may not, as the chair said earlier, ask the question


 1     but you may have the answer.
 2  3112                 MR. WATT:  The reason being you are
 3     focusing on consumer demand for this particular service
 4     and I think the information that we have in front of us
 5     is 70 per cent of Canadians are willing to pay 15 cents
 6     per month per sub.
 7  3113                 Our question is and as we have
 8     suggested in our written comments, we did not know the
 9     full ins and outs of the satellite distribution of this
10     particular service.  We could not glean from the
11     application whether this was a service which was only
12     going to be available through Cancom, or whether it
13     would be available in another fashion.  If this service
14     is only available to be down linked from Cancom, then
15     one of two situations will hold.  Either it may be that
16     Cancom has waived the down link charges for this
17     particular service.
18  3114                 On the other hand, it may be that
19     their standard down link fee will apply.  And that down
20     link fee ranges from 5 cents per sub per month up to 25
21     cents per month per sub, depending upon how many
22     signals are taken from Cancom and the size of the
23     subscriber base.
24  3115                 So it could be the case that for a
25     large urban cable company that does not take many


 1     signals from Cancom, if Cancom is going to charge the
 2     fee and if that is the only way in which the signal can
 3     be sourced, it would not be a 15 cent per month charge,
 4     it would be a 40 cent per month charge to the consumer. 
 5     And I don't know if the consumer demand would hold at
 6     that level.
 7  3116                 Now, as I say, this is something the
 8     Commission needs to look into.  We are not sure of the
 9     facts here.  You were probing this morning a bit the
10     contractual arrangements with Cancom.  We don't know
11     what they are.  It may be the case that this service
12     will be available for down linking outside of Cancom
13     and this chart will not apply.  But if it does apply,
14     the rate may be much higher and then we do not know
15     what consumer demand would be.
16  3117                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Yes.  You
17     have already got the rate, I believe, to 20 cents as
18     opposed to 15 cents in this paper here.
19  3118                 MR. WATT:  Yes, we took the lowest
20     possible charge from Cancom.
21  3119                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Assuming
22     passing through of the costs of which you are not sure
23     at the moment and therefore your concept that it could
24     go even higher.  And therefore you say:  We do not
25     think the Commission in this competitive environment


 1     should be contemplating a regime under which it forces
 2     customers to pay for services they may not want.
 3  3120                 Just so I am clear on what that means
 4     to you, when you bring new services into the cable
 5     system as you did just recently at rates that are
 6     higher than 20 cents, as a customer, I did not have a
 7     choice in that regard.  So I am not quite sure
 8     precisely what you mean by this comment of forcing
 9     customers to pay for services they do not want.
10  3121                 Fundamentally in a package, I will
11     get a change in services within that package at rates
12     that I -- are greater, as I understand it, than 20
13     cents.
14  3122                 I just want to see from your point of
15     view what exactly you mean by that sentence.
16  3123                 MR. WATT:  Well, recently you will
17     have had channels added to the third tier.  And we
18     offered a package of services to you that had, say, for
19     example, say ten channels around it in your package. 
20     Well, let us get more realistic.  Let us say it was 14
21     channels and I believe the range in Ottawa would have
22     been an incremental $5.95, something in that order,
23     about $6, say, rounded.
24  3124                 The affiliation payments for each of
25     those services probably ranged from a low of 10 cents


 1     to a high of 40, 45, 50, something like that.  The
 2     totality of those affiliation payments would have been
 3     in the order of, say, to keep it simple, say, $3, half
 4     the charge that was levied on your bill.  The other
 5     half of the charge goes to pay for the channel costs
 6     and our costs of operating.
 7  3125                 Now, when a channel is added to the
 8     basic tier and when we choose to do that or are
 9     required to do that, it is only the affiliation fee and
10     the SRDU down link fee that can be passed through to
11     you unless -- and Mr. Thomson will help me here --
12     unless it is a specialty that is put on the basic tier,
13     in which case, a 2 cent cost recovery fee can also be
14     added to the charge.
15  3126                 So those are the ways in which your
16     basic cable bill can increase.  Until a year and a half
17     ago, there was also a cap X allowance which, in effect,
18     did allow us to capture some of the cost of adding
19     additional channels to provide basic service.  We were
20     allowed to increase our rates in relation with the
21     capital expenditure that we were expending.
22  3127                 MR. THOMSON:  You raised the example
23     of services that have been recently added and let us
24     take "SportsNet", which was just recently added across
25     the country.  In some markets, that service is on basic


 1     and in other markets it is on a tier of.  And that is a
 2     decision that has been made by the cable operator
 3     within their own market based on the existing
 4     competition.  If, for example, Look TV is in the market
 5     and is offering a strong sports service on basic, then
 6     the local cable operator may have chosen to react the
 7     same way.
 8  3128                 In other markets, the operator chose
 9     to put "SportsNet" on a tier and perhaps move another
10     sports service down to basic.  In other markets, they
11     put "SportsNet" on a third tier.  These are decisions
12     that each cable operator has been able to make based on
13     their market, based on the demand and based on the
14     competitive forces.
15  3129                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So I
16     understand, you just said that one cable operator may
17     have decided to move a sports service down to basic. 
18     Would the costs of moving it to basic be the same as
19     what you say here in terms of putting a service like
20     APTN on basic?  What was it, 90 million?
21  3130                 MR. WATT:  The channel costs would be
22     the same, yes.
23  3131                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  So it is
24     possible for you to accept the costs of moving a
25     service to basic at X dollars if you feel there is a


 1     market for it?
 2  3132                 MR. THOMSON:  But there are tradeoffs
 3     in that there is an opportunity for the operator to
 4     determine whether the tradeoffs make sense from a
 5     business perspective, whether there is an opportunity
 6     somewhere else to recover those costs.
 7  3133                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  In looking
 8     all of this, do you have any -- let us get back to a
 9     slightly broader picture and I will let my colleagues
10     have some questions because I do not want to monopolize
11     all the time.
12  3134                 But do you have any other suggestions
13     for this is an important concept and an important
14     service that is being proposed and a service which has
15     said that it is not viable without mandatory carriage. 
16     You oppose that mandatory carriage.  You have offered
17     an alternative which you assume will achieve the same
18     results, national coverage of an Aboriginal service,
19     which will increase the, as you have said is a good
20     idea, the availability of that Aboriginal programming.
21  3135                 Do you have any other alternatives or
22     suggestions to offer us in terms of how we can achieve
23     this goal?
24  3136                 MR. THOMSON:  With the going
25     imposition that the digital option is obviously our


 1     first choice and that the mandatory-to-basic option is
 2     our last choice, there are possible other alternatives.
 3  3137                 One alternative would be to licence
 4     the service as a specialty service and make it subject
 5     to the CRTC's access rules for specialty services.
 6  3138                 So that, come next fall, September of
 7     1999, depending on where operators are with respect to
 8     the digital roll out and so on, there is an obligation
 9     to carry specialty service in analogue at that time and
10     APTN would join that group and be an analogue specialty
11     service subject to the commission's access obligations. 
12     That would be one alternative.
13  3139                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
14     very much for responding to my questions.  And I will
15     -- that is it for now.
16  3140                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
17  3141                 Mr. Thomson, in your remarks today,
18     you say that if we were to retain or accept this
19     proposal or at least you are of the view, you are
20     opposed to it because it is mandatory carriage and such
21     an approach contradicts the whole notion of consumer or
22     customer choice.
23  3142                 Now, you did not say cable choice,
24     you said customer choice.  So I suspect what you mean
25     is you want this customer choice in cable in my home


 1     would be I do not like it any more, I am turning it
 2     off.  It is not like I can go to another cable company. 
 3     Presumably I could take DTH, I suppose.
 4  3143                 So I am living in Ottawa and I am
 5     looking at this.  So I take tier 1, so I get TSN, so
 6     I've got lots of sports.  Did I miss any survey or
 7     question to me in my home as to whether I would like
 8     more sports?  Whether as a choice I want more sports?
 9     Like, did Rogers actually survey or ask or find out
10     whether people wanted more sports?  Did I miss anything
11     in my mailbox?  Like, was I asked?  Was there something
12     sent out to establish why the cable company thinks I
13     need more sports?
14  3144                 MR. THOMSON:  When CCTA participated
15     in the last round of specialty hearings, we did
16     consumer research, generally speaking, on --
17  3145                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Generally speaking,
18     though.  I think I heard you say that the cable
19     operator wants to be able to decide market by market
20     because he knows what Ottawans want.  Did you do a
21     survey of that was narrow enough to say that Ottawa
22     people wanted more sports?
23  3146                 MR. THOMSON:  I do not believe that
24     --
25  3147                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Or was I ever asked


 1     or phoned questions?
 2  3148                 MR. THOMSON:  I don't know whether
 3     you were or not, I was not phoned.
 4  3149                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you know, Mr.
 5     Watt, whether Rogers conducted any such survey?
 6  3150                 MR. WATT:  No, I don't know for
 7     certain.  I know that there are ongoing focus groups
 8     that go on all the time.  I do not know --
 9  3151                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  As to what people
10     may want or not.
11  3152                 MR. WATT:  Well, that's right.  When
12     considering placement of that channel.  But I do not
13     know about Ottawa.
14  3153                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, can I ask any
15     of you three if you remember or know what the basic
16     regulated rate is for "SportsNet"?
17  3154                 MR. THOMSON:  I believe it is 76
18     cents or in that neighbourhood.
19  3155                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Seventy-six cents.
20     And I do not think --
21  3156                 MR. THOMSON:  I hear someone
22     whispering 78 from the audience.
23  3157                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, that's what I
24     thought, that it was 78, but I am not going to argue
25     that because sometimes people put their two cents in. 


 1     I did not intend that as being, the two cents being the
 2     markup, I was not trying to be funny.
 3  3158                 This is a serious affair.  I am now
 4     getting "SportsNet" as well as the tier that has TSN. 
 5     I was never asked whether I wanted it.  And whether you
 6     are charging it to me now, eventually, if you are a
 7     good businessman, as you say you are, you will charge
 8     me 78 cents.  My option will be to disconnect cable.  I
 9     have great difficulty in you coming and telling me one
10     month later as an Ottawan and giving me this sheet and
11     saying it goes against customer choice.
12  3159                 I am not talking here about money, I
13     am talking about customer choice.  Your argument about
14     customer choice.  What do you have to say to that?
15  3160                 MR. WATT:  Well, it really is a
16     matter of customer choice, I think, in our view.  It is
17     an issue you face in a competitive marketplace.  Look
18     TV has placed "SportsNet" on its basic package.  Look
19     TV has launched an aggressive advertising campaign in
20     the Greater Toronto area.
21  3161                 They will do the same in Ottawa
22     within the next six months.
23  3162                 A cable operator has to decide
24     whether he wants to leave that competitive challenge
25     open or unmet and allow consumers to -- who want that


 1     package and there is demonstrated demand for sports in
 2     the survey work that we did do whether you wish to
 3     standby lose those customers or whether you wish to
 4     keep them.  And for us it is for the reasons I stated
 5     earlier.  Our business is a high fixed-cost business,
 6     relatively low variable cost business so we make a lot
 7     of margin on each customer and that margin goes to pay
 8     for the huge interest and depreciation expenses of the
 9     plant.
10                                                        1605
11  3163                 So for us to lose a customer is a
12     very, very bad thing.  It is a bad thing for all
13     competitors, but, in an industry characterized by high
14     fixed costs, it is an especially bad thing.
15  3164                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I would like
16     to understand better how you arrived at your costs.  On
17     your ongoing annual costs, the subscriber fees, what
18     does that amount represent?  I guess that's 13 million,
19     right?
20  3165                 MR. WATT:  Yes.  If we look at page 3
21     of the remarks, this is the APTN proposed subscriber
22     fee of 15 cents per sub times the second year-end
23     projected number of subscribers.
24  3166                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but how are
25     those costs to the cable industry?


 1  3167                 MR. WATT:  Those are costs that we
 2     must pass on.
 3  3168                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, but you are
 4     not -- okay, that's fine.  So it is not a cost that is
 5     absorbed, you pick it up from the subscriber and you
 6     pass it on to APTN.
 7  3169                 MR. WATT:  Yes, that's what we have
 8     said.
 9  3170                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Because I thought
10     at first, when I looked at that, it is 13,000 and it
11     represents the cost of collecting the money and mailing
12     it to TVNC.
13  3171                 MR. WATT:  No.
14  3172                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And I didn't see
15     those costs established other than maybe in sticker
16     update/information.  So that's the money you collect
17     and pass on.
18  3173                 MR. WATT:  Precisely.
19  3174                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And perhaps you
20     would want to argue that maybe there is a cost because
21     that 15 cents has so annoyed the customer that he
22     disconnects or I don't know what, and therefore it is a
23     cost.
24  3175                 MR. THOMPSON:  There will also be a 5
25     per cent levy on that for the Canadian Programming Fund


 1     and the community channel.
 2  3176                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And is that
 3     included in that?
 4  3177                 MR. THOMPSON:  No, it is not.
 5  3178                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And the downlink
 6     fees, you have discussed.
 7  3179                 Now, the channel cost, Mr. Watt,
 8     that's a lost opportunity cost of 16 cents for a
 9     channel.
10  3180                 MR. WATT:  It is a lost opportunity
11     cost.  It is a lost actual cost. It is the cost that is
12     not recovered.  When you say "an opportunity cost", we
13     would hope to recover that; whether we do or not is an
14     open question.
15  3181                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  So it is 16
16     cents.  That is the rate that the Commission has
17     established when you lease a channel to a third party. 
18     That's the 16 cents?
19  3182                 MR. WATT:  That is correct.
20  3183                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, in your view,
21     was that 16 cents arrived at for a general purpose of
22     establishing the cost of a channel or was it arrived at
23     for the purpose of the regulated cost of leasing a
24     channel to someone who wants to make money from its
25     use?  What led to the establishment --


 1  3184                 MR. WATT:  I am not sure I can answer
 2     that question.  What I thought it was established for
 3     was to fix an amount which would recover the cost of
 4     that particular channel regardless of the purpose for
 5     which that channel was used.
 6  3185                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, we can debate
 7     that, but certainly the exercise was as a result of
 8     establishing what is the cost that would be fair to
 9     charge a third party who is going to lease a channel
10     for the purpose of a commercial operation of his own -- 
11     and you can, of course, now say every channel is 16
12     cents and every time there is lost opportunity.  In
13     fact, you make more money than that on some channels,
14     et cetera.  So it was established when the Commission
15     was trying to establish what was the cost of a channel
16     to a third party.  At least that much is true.
17  3186                 MR. WATT:  Yes, that was the purpose. 
18     I know the mechanical way in which it was done was to
19     take our actual plant cost, distribution plant cost,
20     amortize it on a 10-year life --
21  3187                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, I understand.
22  3188                 MR. WATT:  -- and assume that a 23.5
23     per cent return on net fixed assets before tax was
24     achieved, and the operating expenses --
25  3189                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So the best you


 1     could say is that this sum represents an opportunity
 2     cost, that normally you could get something to put in
 3     there on which your channel will return you that much
 4     at least, or lease it to someone else.
 5  3190                 MR. WATT:  I struggle with the word
 6     "opportunity".  It is an actual cost.
 7  3191                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Lost opportunity
 8     cost.  If you are forced to take a channel that you
 9     could lease or use for 16 cents, if that's the value of
10     it, and somehow or other the regulatory system forces
11     you to use it for something else, would it not be fair
12     that the cost that you factored in here is the lost
13     opportunity to use that channel for other purposes?
14  3192                 Why do you have a problem with that? 
15     If you were trying to explain to an accountant what
16     this line is, "Channel costs, 16 cents a customer",
17     what would you say to him?
18  3193                 MR. WATT:  What would I say to --
19  3194                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, as to what
20     that represents, that cost?
21  3195                 MR. WATT:  That represents the cost
22     of putting the fibre optic cable from the headend,
23     where the signals are collected, running it down the
24     street or on a telephone pole --
25  3196                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh!  So it is a


 1     lost opportunity for recovery, then, is the way you
 2     would put it, that if you can't charge that 16 cents
 3     somehow or other, the cost of providing it is not
 4     recovered.
 5  3197                 MR. WATT:  Well, in the first
 6     instance, the cost has to be realized, and then you
 7     come to the issue as to whether you can recover that
 8     cost or not.  But, to my mind, the first issue is the
 9     incurrence of the cost, and having incurred the cost,
10     it has been calculated that it costs $90 million, and
11     if you recover that over 10 years across all the
12     subscribers in the country, it would come to a monthly
13     cost of 16.2 cents per sub per month.
14  3198                 So now you go forward with that
15     particular channel and say, I need to find something to
16     go on that channel that will return to me 16.2 cents.
17  3199                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that how our
18     system is built when you look at the basic service?
19  3200                 MR. WATT:  That's not how it was
20     originally built.  The way our system, to establish
21     basic rates, was originally established was on what
22     would, back in time, have been called a rate base rate
23     of return basis, so it is not done on a per-channel
24     basis, but rather was done on an entire licence basis. 
25     So all the plant costs and the operating expenses were


 1     considered, and then a rate was set for basic cable,
 2     say $15, which recovered those capital costs and
 3     allowed a return on those as required in order to keep
 4     people investing in the cable company and recover the
 5     operating costs so that all the costs were recovered,
 6     but since it was a monopoly, you were only allowed to
 7     make, say, a certain amount.
 8  3201                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are not
 9     saying --
10  3202                 MR. WATT:  Pardon me?
11  3203                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are not saying
12     what that was?
13  3204                 MR. WATT:  It varied over the years. 
14     It varied.
15  3205                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now, I would like
16     to understand, having asked you about this, on the next
17     page you have 16 cents per subscriber per month in
18     recurring costs.  How do you arrive at the 16 cents per
19     subscriber per month?  What numbers from the previous
20     page did you put in the calculation to arrive at that?
21  3206                 MR. THOMPSON:  That's the 16.2
22     rounded off to 16.
23  3207                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that's the cost
24     of the channel --
25  3208                 MR. THOMPSON:  Yes.


 1  3209                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  -- that you are not
 2     recovering, however one describes it, and then the one-
 3     time cost unrecovered would be the same type of
 4     division but by taking the $4.8 million sticker update/
 5     information in the headend equipment to arrive at
 6     those.  Right?  It is 4.8 million divided by the number
 7     of subscribers.
 8  3210                 MR. WATT:  That's right.
 9  3211                 MR. THOMPSON:  There is another cost
10     that we haven't factored in here that is potentially
11     bearable by certain of our members, and that is with
12     respect to copyright fees.
13  3212                 In the event that APTN is licensed as
14     a national network as opposed to a specialty service,
15     then it will be considered a distant signal for
16     copyright purposes for cable systems.
17  3213                 There are some cable systems,
18     certainly in the southern Ontario market, where they
19     don't have to pay distant signal royalties because they
20     don't currently carry any distant signals.  If APTN is
21     forced upon them and they have to carry it, they will
22     suddenly begin to incur as much as 70 cents per
23     subscriber per month in new copyright royalties.  That
24     hasn't been included.
25  3214                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you know -- you


 1     may not, but do you know what happens with the
 2     distribution of the cable-to-satellite ASN service with
 3     regard to copyright?  Because they must be distant
 4     somehow in the same manner, if we were to characterize
 5     APTN that way.  Do you know whether cable operators
 6     have to consider that a distant signal?
 7  3215                 MR. THOMPSON:  ASN, because it is not
 8     available off air anywhere, is considered a non-
 9     broadcast service and, therefore, not a distance
10     signal.  If the APTN service is available off air in
11     certain markets, which I understand it will be --
12  3216                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But if it were not
13     in the majority of the markets, is it possible that it
14     would have the same treatment as ASN?
15  3217                 MR. THOMPSON:  The determinative
16     factor is the status of the signal at its origination.
17  3218                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.
18  3219                 These are my questions.
19  3220                 Commissioner Cardozo.
20  3221                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Just a few
21     quick questions.
22  3222                 Thank you for your presentation.  I
23     appreciate the detail you have provided us about the
24     business issues concerning cable in this matter, and
25     especially the clarifications you have provided to my


 1     colleagues.  I would just like to go through a few
 2     quick questions that I have in my attempt to try to
 3     understand things better.
 4  3223                 You mentioned that Shaw has rolled
 5     out is it 70,000 boxes at this point?
 6  3224                 MR. WATT:  Yes.
 7  3225                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  About that. 
 8     So do I understand from that that they would have the
 9     capacity for APTN with the boxes?
10  3226                 MR. WATT:  Yes, I believe they would.
11  3227                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You have
12     talked about giving people what they want, and the
13     matter was discussed with Commissioner Wylie a bit, but
14     I am wondering, with everything that's on basic now, is
15     it your view that consumers want all of those channels
16     more than they want APTN?
17  3228                 Put differently, is it possible that,
18     of that choice, there is a channel that would be less
19     popular than APTN?
20  3229                 MR. THOMPSON:  I suppose that's
21     possible that there will be, amongst the millions of
22     subscribers to basic service, those that like certain
23     services on the basic more than they like others and
24     that there will be potentially those that would prefer
25     to have APTN or some other service instead of something


 1     that they are currently receiving.  But, if it ends up
 2     being the case where some service has to be bumped from
 3     basic in order to make room for APTN, somebody will be
 4     losing a service that is important to them and that
 5     they value and that they have come to enjoy over the
 6     years.  Not only will consumers be losing a channel,
 7     depending on what happens, if there is no room for it
 8     to be carried anywhere else, there are other factors
 9     that come into play such as the jobs of the people who
10     work at that channel.
11  3230                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I guess the
12     question is, is that a net loss or will some people
13     feel that maybe it is a net gain -- they have lost
14     something but they have gained something.  There is an
15     element of --
16  3231                 MR. THOMPSON:  I am sure that some
17     people will consider it a net gain and others will
18     consider it a net loss.
19  3232                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regard to
20     choice, Commissioner Wylie talked about the Sportsnet,
21     how that was added on -- and I have to tell you I live
22     in Ottawa too, and some days, with all these hearings,
23     I just don't get to open all my mail, so I am glad she
24     had the guts to ask that question because sometimes I
25     don't open all my mail and I thought maybe that


 1     questionnaire slipped by me too.
 2                                                        1620
 3  3233                 Really, what we are talking about is
 4     the cable operator being able to make the choice, not
 5     the customer making the choice.
 6  3234                 I have nothing against SportsNet, but
 7     I didn't get to say yes, I want SportsNet, or I don't
 8     want it.  And what if I didn't want it?
 9  3235                 MR. THOMSON:  We are not at that
10     stage yet, where we can provide individual services to
11     consumers and withhold those that they don't want.  As
12     I said earlier, the next best step is to deal with the
13     one who is closest to the market.  And right now that
14     is the cable operator.
15  3236                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So you don't
16     want to really talk about customer choices you have
17     talked about, but rather cable operator choice.  The
18     cable operators will make the choice for us, the
19     consumers.
20  3237                 MR. THOMSON:  At this stage, the
21     cable operator has to be able to make that choice. 
22     That will change when digital comes along.  But that's
23     where we are at now.
24  3238                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  You say
25     digital is about to roll out, and you were suggesting


 1     that perhaps by next year we will have the open cable
 2     box.
 3  3239                 I look at the timing of when APTN
 4     would be interested in rolling out.  Given that Shaw is
 5     already rolling out its digital set-top box and would
 6     be able to accommodate it, given that digital is coming
 7     fairly soon, and APTN does not want to roll out until
 8     the fall of next year, we are not talking about a big
 9     gap of time, are we?
10  3240                 Their request for mandatory carriage
11     is really quite a temporary thing, because at some
12     point we have digital.  And then you are not so
13     concerned about whether you will get them on or not.
14  3241                 MR. THOMSON:  I think the answer is
15     yes.  But if what is being contemplated is where they
16     would be put on a mandatory to basic basis, or launched
17     on a mandatory to basic basis and then shortly
18     thereafter switched over to digital, I don't think that
19     is workable.
20  3242                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But your
21     recommendation is license them on a digital basis. 
22     Part of the concern about them wanting to be launched
23     sooner than that and your concern about us ordering
24     cable companies to do that is your problem of cable
25     capacity.  The issue of capacity, in your view, is


 1     likely to be solved fairly soon with the digital roll-
 2     out?
 3  3243                 MR. THOMSON:  Certainly once digital
 4     is available, there will be significantly more capacity
 5     and arguably there won't be the kind of crunch that we
 6     have now.
 7  3244                 MR. WATT:  I might add that it is a
 8     difficult proposition when we say there will be much
 9     additional capacity.  There will be much additional
10     digital capacity.  But whether that frees up analog
11     channels still in analog format, I think is still an
12     open question.
13  3245                 People have talked about going at
14     this two ways.  There is one school of thought that
15     says certainly you have to maintain the current basic
16     services on analog, because not everybody will have a
17     box.  So you don't free any of those up.
18  3246                 I don't think it really clearly
19     solves the problem of scarce analog capacity either. 
20     It may be the case -- I guess it depends precisely.
21  3247                 You could say that we will take all
22     the scrambled services today, take eight analog and
23     free those up; get rid of all the analog boxes.  And
24     then you could say I will only take six out of those
25     eight to digitize, giving me 48 or 50 digital channels. 


 1     But I have now opened up two free analog channels to
 2     carry an additional analog service.
 3  3248                 I guess that is conceivable.  But I
 4     don't know if that is precisely how it will unfold.
 5  3249                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  On the matter
 6     of competition, a point was made earlier today by
 7     Christina Keeper that if APTN were licensed, it would
 8     provide competition in this sense:  that with regard to
 9     the reflection of aboriginal people and programs that
10     reflect their experience on other channels, there would
11     be competition.  Where other channels could ignore it
12     and not do much now, if there was APTN who was doing
13     this, they would feel a certain sense of competition to
14     either meet that standard or to meet that kind of need.
15  3250                 Do you see that point?
16  3251                 MR. THOMSON:  We are certainly not
17     experts in programming and the decisions that
18     programming undertakings will make as to the type of
19     programs they want to offer or counter-program with
20     other broadcasters.
21  3252                 But if that is indeed the case, that
22     will occur whether the service is mandatory to basic or
23     made optional to subscribers.
24  3253                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Except if it
25     is optional and nobody carries it, then it is sort of


 1     like the tree falling in the forest: nobody will hear
 2     it.
 3  3254                 MR. THOMSON:  But I don't think there
 4     is a suggestion here that if it is made optional, no
 5     one will carry it.
 6  3255                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But TVNC has
 7     been available to cable operators, and I am not aware
 8     that it has been taken up in a big way.
 9  3256                 MR. THOMSON:  But it has not really
10     been available to cable operators, because it is not
11     being uplinked to the satellite anywhere.  We can't
12     access it.
13  3257                 And it is a different service too. 
14     It is a service that, as has been discussed here, is
15     primarily focused on the north and not as of interest
16     to the southern population.
17  3258                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I just want to
18     make the observation that I am a little troubled by
19     some of the characterizations when you talk about
20     "imposed and forced upon the consumer".  Sometimes --
21     and perhaps this is not what you are suggesting, and
22     correct me if I am wrong.
23  3259                 It is a facile argument to say
24     Ottawa, the regulator, is forcing this down your
25     throats, and so forth.  I would find that of great


 1     concern as a commentary on the Commission, because I
 2     think one of the things that the Commission does fairly
 3     well, and has for a long time, is the public process.
 4  3260                 If we were to make a determination of
 5     that kind, it would be after the kind of public process
 6     we have just had.
 7  3261                 I don't think you are suggesting
 8     that.  But I would suggest that it is not being forced
 9     on people from on top in a distant way, in a vacuum;
10     that through our public process here, and other
11     processes, there is some connection we have to
12     Canadians.
13  3262                 MR. THOMSON:  And we would agree
14     wholeheartedly with you.  We are firm believers and
15     supporters of the public process that the Commission
16     undertakes.
17  3263                 There are those who still make those
18     points, not necessarily within our industry.  But you,
19     I am sure, have read them in editorials over the past
20     while.  And there are certainly those of our customers
21     who make those points.  And when they make those
22     points, they make them to us.  We are the ones who get
23     the complaints and have to deal with them.
24  3264                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  They make them
25     to us too.


 1  3265                 MR. THOMSON:  I am sure they do.
 2  3266                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And they make
 3     some comments to us about you.
 4  3267                 MR. THOMSON:  They copy us and
 5     sometimes they copy you.
 6  3268                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And we copy
 7     you too.  So let's keep that open.
 8  3269                 Thank you very much.  It is very
 9     helpful.
10  3270                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And you obviously
11     have to believe in the public process to be here at
12     4:30 on Friday -- and heaven knows until how late.
13  3271                 Counsel, please.
14  3272                 MR. BATSTONE:  I have a few
15     questions.  I will get away from your oral presentation
16     for a moment.
17  3273                 You said in your written intervention
18     that the Commission should determine what is a service
19     that is of national public interest.  I would like to
20     get your views on the criteria the Commission should
21     use to determine whether a service is of national
22     public interest.
23  3274                 MR. THOMSON:  We outlined in our
24     written submission what we think some of the tests
25     should be, and we don't really have anything to add to


 1     that.
 2  3275                 The issue really is not whether this
 3     service is a 17(5) service or some other kind of
 4     service.  The issue is whether the Commission
 5     ultimately wants to make it mandatory to basic.  That
 6     is a decision within the Commission's jurisdiction.
 7  3276                 The mechanics that are used once that
 8     decision is made are secondary and really up to you.
 9  3277                 MR. BATSTONE:  So these would be the
10     arguments made with respect to over-the-air service
11     across Canada, that type of thing.
12  3278                 Is that correct?
13  3279                 MR. THOMSON:  That's right.
14  3280                 MR. BATSTONE:  A couple of questions
15     we asked of TVNC this morning we would also like to ask
16     of you.
17  3281                 If the Commission were to license
18     APTN, how much lead time would cable systems need in
19     order to be able to begin distributing it?
20  3282                 MR. THOMSON:  If the question is if
21     the Commission licenses it for mandatory-to-basic --
22  3283                 MR. BATSTONE:  Licenses it as
23     proposed in their application.
24  3284                 MR. THOMSON:  Okay.  Just recently
25     the Commission decided to grant national mandatory


 1     status to the TVA network.
 2  3285                 Given what we have outlined about the
 3     difficulties of channel realignment, the costs
 4     associated with those kinds of changes and the
 5     notification procedures we have to go through, whatever
 6     decision the Commission ultimately makes, we would hope
 7     that they would find some way to match one with the
 8     other so that when a launch takes place, it can be
 9     coordinated.
10  3286                 So we don't have to go to consumers
11     one time and say:  "Here's a new service.  Here's a
12     change to your channel line-up."  And then six months
13     later say:  "Here's another service.  Here's a change
14     to your channel line-up, and here's the cost associated
15     with it too."
16  3287                 In terms of lead time, the bigger
17     issue is the coordination, I think.
18  3288                 MR. BATSTONE:  I understand that, and
19     I take your point.  But the TVA process is ongoing now.
20  3289                 Can you give us a better sense of how
21     much time you would need so we can decide if it is
22     possible to coordinate it with the TVA?
23  3290                 MR. THOMSON:  My understanding is the
24     applicant has looked toward September of 1999.  That is
25     a key date for a number of other reasons with respect


 1     to other services.  It would probably be an appropriate
 2     date, and something that we could move towards, if the
 3     scenario developed as they proposed.
 4  3291                 MR. BATSTONE:  Once again, if the
 5     Commission were to approve the application on the terms
 6     that were requested, how long would it take for cable
 7     operators to begin collecting the fees and remitting
 8     them to APTN?
 9  3292                 MR. THOMSON:  With sufficient advance
10     notice -- and let's say it is September 1, 1999 that
11     they begin to be provided across the country.
12  3293                 We would know that in advance.  We
13     would back up the notification requirement
14     appropriately into the summer.  So the fees would start
15     coming in presumably with the monthly bills in
16     September.
17  3294                 As with any other programming service
18     for which we recover a cost and pass it through, it is
19     usually within the next month following.
20  3295                 Is that right?
21  3296                 MR. WATT:  That's right.  Again,
22     though, regardless of whether we --
23  3297                 If we chose not to pass this fee
24     through to consumers for two or three months because we
25     didn't want to have two basic rate increases in the


 1     same calendar year -- which is very problematic for
 2     customers -- then it would still be the case.  We would
 3     still be liable for payment of the fee to the channel.
 4  3298                 There is not necessarily a direct
 5     link between the receipt of the moneys from the
 6     customer being passed through to the channel.
 7  3299                 I don't know precisely how these are
 8     done.  I presume that on a monthly basis an invoice is
 9     sent from the channel and then it is payable within 30
10     days.
11  3300                 MR. BATSTONE:  Thank you very much.
12  3301                 With respect to the distant signal
13     issue with respect to the royalties, Commissioner Wylie
14     mentioned the Atlantic Satellite Network.  I was
15     wondering if perhaps a better example would not be the
16     TFO service, which I presume would be over-the-air in
17     Ontario but which is carried off satellite in New
18     Brunswick.
19  3302                 Another one, I guess, would be Access
20     Television in Alberta, which, as I understand it, has
21     two over-the-air transmitters but is carried on cable
22     in other markets.
23  3303                 MR. THOMSON:  TVO, TFO are considered
24     distant signals and distant broadcast signals for
25     copyright purposes outside the Toronto market where


 1     they originate.
 2  3304                 Interestingly enough, Access Alberta
 3     is considered not to be a distant signal.  I think that
 4     is on the basis, as far as the Copyright Board is
 5     concerned, that it did not originate somewhere as an
 6     off-the-air free signal.
 7  3305                 MR. BATSTONE:  It may be that they
 8     don't have transmitters any more.  I am not totally
 9     certain on that.
10                                                        1635
11  3306                 I just had a question in relation to
12     the channel line-up sheet that you handed out today.
13  3307                 I noticed that the Ottawa line-up is
14     dated as of December 15, 1998.  My more knowledgeable
15     colleagues here have told me that, in fact, this
16     represents some changes from the current line-up.  Is
17     that correct?
18  3308                 MR. THOMSON:  That's right.  Because
19     it is dated in the future, December 15, 1998, it
20     includes the addition of -- I believe it is Canal D, if
21     you see Channel 60, which will be added as of December
22     15.  That is my understanding.
23  3309                 MR. BATSTONE:  Again from my more
24     knowledgeable colleagues, I understand that a number of
25     services will be moved as well.


 1  3310                 CTV SportsNet is currently on 66, I
 2     understand, and it looks like it is moving down the
 3     dial to 27.
 4  3311                 MR. THOMSON:  That is what this would
 5     indicate, yes.
 6  3312                 MR. BATSTONE:  Will there be a
 7     channel line-up sticker issued as a result of this
 8     realignment?
 9  3313                 MR. THOMSON:  Yes.
10  3314                 MR. BATSTONE:  There will?
11  3315                 MR. THOMSON:  Yes.
12  3316                 MR. BATSTONE:  Is it your experience
13     that there is always one associated with a realignment?
14  3317                 MR. THOMSON:  I believe that is the
15     case, yes.
16  3318                 It is incumbent upon us, as
17     operators -- or our members, as operators, to inform
18     their customers when there have been changes to the
19     line-up.
20  3319                 They do occur, but we try to co-
21     ordinate them as best we can and reduce the frequency
22     as much as possible.
23  3320                 MR. BATSTONE:  I have two more
24     questions.
25  3321                 We heard earlier from TVNC that it


 1     would be prepared to accept a restricted channel in
 2     certain circumstances if the degree of impairment
 3     wasn't too great.  Do you have a sense of how many
 4     systems might have a minimally impaired restricted
 5     channel, if you will?
 6  3322                 MR. THOMSON:  I couldn't say that I
 7     have a sense on a national basis, but the examples that
 8     we have here, that we have handed out with the channel
 9     line-up, you will see that in the second column under
10     "Designation" there is an "R".  In those cases those
11     represent restricted channels.
12  3323                 Obviously, there are different
13     categories of restricted, because there are some
14     broadcast services, including U.S. 4+1 services, that
15     are carried on restricted channels in these two
16     systems.
17  3324                 MR. BATSTONE:  My final question is a
18     hypothetical question.
19  3325                 We were discussing earlier about the
20     possibility of having to remove a service from the
21     basic service and replace it with APTN.  I am just
22     wondering if there is a possibility for the basic
23     service fee to actually go down in a situation where
24     that would happen, if, for instance, the APTN service
25     replaced a service which had a higher subscriber fee.


 1  3326                 Is that a possibility?
 2  3327                 MR. THOMSON:  Yes, that is possible,
 3     but what would have to be removed -- if you are talking
 4     about specialty services with pass-through fees, it
 5     would have to be a Canadian service that was bumped off
 6     the basic because U.S. services aren't permitted on the
 7     basic service.
 8  3328                 So to the extent that there are
 9     signals being carried on basic with pass-through fees
10     and there is a change and the fee is lower for APTN
11     than it is for YTV or Vision or Newsworld, if those are
12     the ones that are bumped, then the rate will go down. 
13     But I think the complaints will go up.
14  3329                 MR. BATSTONE:  Are there any non-
15     Canadian services for which a fee is collected?
16  3330                 I don't know the answer to that, I am
17     just wondering.
18  3331                 MR. THOMSON:  There are no non-
19     Canadian services distributed on the basic service with
20     a subscriber fee.
21  3332                 MR. BATSTONE:  All right.  Thank you. 
22     Those are all of my questions.
23  3333                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have one more
24     question.
25  3334                 On page 4 of your presentation, the


 1     sticker update information of 40 cents per subscriber,
 2     amounting to $3 million, is that the full cost of a
 3     sticker, as if APTN was the only change?
 4  3335                 MR. WATT:  Yes, that would be the
 5     full cost.
 6  3336                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is not an
 7     incremental cost.
 8  3337                 MR. WATT:  No.
 9  3338                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you expect that
10     on 1 September 1999, if this application were approved
11     as proposed, that that would be the sole change
12     requiring you to issue a sticker?
13  3339                 MR. WATT:  That is a good point.  We
14     didn't consider that at the time, but it is very
15     likely --
16  3340                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  There will be a
17     minimal incremental cost to have one more on a sticker,
18     if you were making changes?
19  3341                 MR. WATT:  I don't think you would
20     want to try to split it up --
21  3342                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But one would
22     assume that that would be a small incremental cost if
23     there were other changes.
24  3343                 MR. THOMSON:  It depends on how fancy
25     we make the sticker, I suppose.


 1  3344                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you proposing
 2     to put all kinds of Indian lore on it?
 3  3345                 You know what I mean.  A sticker may
 4     be necessitated in any event, and that is a very large
 5     sum of your one-time costs, which may or may not be
 6     fair.  It would only be fair if there would be no
 7     change on 1 September 1999, were it not for APTN. 
 8     Correct?
 9  3346                 MR. WATT:  That's correct.
10  3347                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
11     much, Mr. Watt, Mr. Thomson and Ms Kirshenblatt.  We
12     appreciate your staying so late and your participation,
13     and we hope you have a nice weekend.
14  3348                 MR. THOMSON:  Thank you.
15  3349                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will hear one
16     more intervention and then take a 15-minute break.
17  3350                 Madam Secretary ...
18  3351                 MS SANTERRE:  The next intervention
19     will be made by Friends of Canadian Broadcasting.
20  3352                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Morrison, good
21     afternoon.
23  3353                 MR. MORRISON:  Thank you, Madam Chair
24     and Commissioners.  Thanks also for the opportunity to
25     share the perspective of the steering committee of the


 1     Friends of Canadian Broadcasting on Television Northern
 2     Canada's application.
 3  3354                 I was tempted to begin by saying "and
 4     now for something completely different" --
 5  3355                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is what Zsa
 6     Zsa Gabor was supposed to have said the seven times she
 7     got married.
 8  3356                 MR. MORRISON:  I am also noting,
 9     Madam Chair, that the chair I am sitting in is very
10     warm.
11  3357                 As you know, also, the 1996 Census
12     revealed that 800,000 Canadians reported that they were
13     North American Indian, Métis or Inuit, and that, for
14     methodological reasons, this figure under-reports the
15     total number of aboriginal Canadians.  These aboriginal
16     Canadians are to be found in substantial numbers in all
17     parts of the country.  In several census metropolitan
18     areas, for example, aboriginal people constitute close
19     to one-tenth of the population.
20  3358                 The Broadcasting Act states:
21                            "The Canadian broadcasting
22                            system should...reflect...the
23                            special place of aboriginal
24                            people."
25  3359                 It also states:


 1                            "Programming that reflects the
 2                            aboriginal cultures of Canada
 3                            should be provided within the
 4                            Canadian broadcasting system as
 5                            resources become available for
 6                            that purpose."
 7  3360                 As you know, Friends of Canadian
 8     Broadcasting supports TVNC's proposal to establish the
 9     Aboriginal Peoples Television Network.
10  3361                 Friends believes that there are at
11     least four important reasons for approving the
12     application.
13  3362                 First, it responds to a Broadcasting
14     Act priority which has not yet been effectively
15     addressed in the broadcasting system.
16  3363                 Second, it will strengthen the
17     programming capacity of Television Northern Canada and
18     provide a means for collaboration and second windows
19     among Canadian broadcasters.
20  3364                 Third, it will link aboriginal people
21     in all parts of Canada.
22  3365                 Fourth, it will offer the non-
23     aboriginal population for the first time an opportunity
24     to view a sustained and focused television programming
25     service produced from an aboriginal point of view.


 1  3366                 We want to focus in this brief
 2     presentation on the latter point.
 3  3367                 Friends believes that all Canadians
 4     should have access to at least one programming service
 5     produced from an aboriginal point of view.  This is not
 6     just our view; it is the intention expressed in the
 7     act, and is, as the act says, "broadcasting policy for
 8     Canada".
 9  3368                 While we do not wish to denigrate the
10     efforts of existing broadcasters to present aboriginal
11     themes in their programming, sometimes from an
12     aboriginal point of view, we suggest that existing
13     programming comes nowhere close to meeting the act's
14     intention, while this application promises to do so.
15  3369                 Our principal recommendation is,
16     therefore, that the Commission should ensure that the
17     Aboriginal Peoples Television Network receives
18     widespread distribution.  It should be available in
19     each Canadian household.
20  3370                 When we scanned various
21     interventions, we noted with approval the unreserved
22     endorsement from CanWest Global Communications.  We
23     were somewhat less impressed with the comments of Baton
24     Broadcasting and the CBC.  Both reminded us of the
25     expression "all possible short -- short of actual


 1     help".
 2  3371                 The application before you is not
 3     just another specialty channel; it meets and expressed
 4     and, thus far, unfulfilled Broadcasting Act priority.
 5  3372                 The CBC, in particular, fails to take
 6     broadcasting policy into account and sells TVNC's
 7     proposal short when it describes the service as
 8     "targeted essentially to a particular audience".
 9  3373                 The CBC opposes the use of section
10     9(1)(h) in this case.  It states:
11                            "We see its use in instances
12                            where the Commission determines
13                            a service is in the national
14                            public interest and merits
15                            mandatory carriage on what must
16                            be considered to be an
17                            extraordinary basis.  And we see
18                            its use in instances where the
19                            Commission finds that the
20                            Canadian distribution industry
21                            has frustrated a licensed
22                            Canadian service deemed to be of
23                            national public interest from
24                            reaching its intended audience
25                            by failing to provide carriage. 


 1                            In our view, neither instance is
 2                            applicable, yet, in the case of
 3                            the TVNC application."
 4  3374                 We note that "yet" refers to a time
 5     before the Corporation had a chance to read the
 6     intervention of the Canadian Cable Television
 7     Association.
 8  3375                 The CCTA, whose members control
 9     coaxial access to seven million Canadian households,
10     has told you that the Aboriginal Peoples Television
11     Network is not a "national public interest service",
12     applying proposed criteria that would have excluded
13     CBC's television services until more recent times.
14  3376                 Quoting the act's references to what
15     it terms "targeted audiences" -- almost as if they had
16     been talking with the CBC -- the association
17     conveniently ignores the vast discrepancy between the
18     attainment of the act's other priorities and those
19     directed toward aboriginal peoples.  And it also
20     ignores the adjective "special" before "place of
21     aboriginal peoples" in the quoted sub-paragraph.
22  3377                 The CCTA also proposes that you
23     license APTN only on a digital basis, knowing full well
24     that if you accepted its proposal you would be gutting
25     the financial viability of the application.


 1  3378                 Witnessing this sophistry from the
 2     cable industry's mouthpiece, would you expect its
 3     members to turn their backs on their gatekeeper
 4     ambitions and not frustrate "a licensed Canadian
 5     service deemed to be of national public interest from
 6     reaching its intended audience by failing to provide
 7     carriage"?
 8  3379                 Stripped of its thin veneer of
 9     plausibility, what the CCTA is really advocating is
10     that you refrain from mandating carriage, thereby
11     saving channel capacity for profitable and cheap
12     foreign services, help cable with its price-elasticity
13     modelling, and that you place the Aboriginal Peoples
14     Television Network on the shelf, with its business plan
15     in tatters, until the dawn of effective digital
16     distribution.
17  3380                 Notwithstanding the CCTA's
18     longstanding efforts to mislead your Commission on this
19     issue, we all know that digital roll-out will be a long
20     time coming in Canada, that it will be costly at a
21     retail level and, consequently, will have low
22     penetration rates for the foreseeable future.
23  3381                 Friends urges you to license the
24     applicant and to ensure its widespread dissemination
25     using the tools at your disposal.  It is not just


 1     important for the citizens of Canada's First Nations,
 2     it is important for all Canadians.
 3  3382                 Thank you.
 4  3383                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 5     Morrison.
 6  3384                 Commissioner Cardozo ...
 7  3385                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
 8     Madam Chair.
 9  3386                 Welcome, Mr. Morrison.  I want to
10     quote one of the things you said in your written
11     submission, which you have touched on today as well.
12  3387                 You say that the purpose of the
13     network is to offer the non-aboriginal population its
14     first opportunity to receive a substantial and
15     continuing television programming service produced from
16     an aboriginal point of view.  That is part of the
17     objective.
18                                                        1650
19  3388                 Is it your view that non-aboriginal
20     people don't get very much information or perspectives
21     of aboriginal peoples, given the kinds of shows we do
22     have, such as North of 60?
23  3389                 MR. MORRISON:  You could go on and
24     give a longer list, but it wouldn't be a very long list
25     unless you were to go back to that CBC brief and look


 1     at some of the things that are distributed in the
 2     northern service.
 3  3390                 I don't think any informed person or
 4     even a reasonable person could come before you and give
 5     a different answer.  When we compare the lack of
 6     availability of portrayal of aboriginal people from an
 7     aboriginal point of view with the priority of the
 8     governing statute, we find a huge discrepancy.  Indeed,
 9     I haven't seen the use of the word "special" too often
10     in the Broadcasting Act, but it's put in as an
11     adjective before the place of aboriginal peoples.
12  3391                 So, it's the gap that ought to
13     concern you most, and I think it is one of the most
14     powerful reasons for responding positively to the
15     application and also the most powerful reason for
16     ensuring that there is widespread dissemination.
17  3392                 If I could just add one thing, it
18     seems to me that in your questioning of the previous
19     witness, you were talking about sports as an analogy
20     and had you been consulted about wanting more sports
21     programming.  It's very hard for people in general in
22     market research to comment on whether they want
23     something that they have never witnessed before. 
24     Whether you would like beer if you'd never tasted it.
25  3393                 So, we think that this is a real


 1     priority.
 2  3394                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What about the
 3     concerns that the CCTA did raise, and let me ask about
 4     two of the issues.  One is about customer choice.
 5  3395                 I gather from their presentation that
 6     they don't believe customers want this channel, and
 7     that if we were to licence it and order cable companies
 8     to put it on basic, that it would be imposed and it
 9     would be forced upon customers.
10  3396                 MR. MORRISON:  I would like to see
11     their market research, if that is in fact the case. 
12     But while I would be interested in that, it seems to me
13     that the concept of basic in the broadcasting act or in
14     your policies is one that there are certain services
15     that are regarded as fundamental that every Canadian
16     should have the right to receive, services that are
17     perhaps more important than others.
18  3397                 I have witnessed predecessors of Mr.
19     Thomson and his absent President before your Commission
20     when you were a citizen and not a Commissioner,
21     Commissioner Cardozo.
22  3398                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I'm still a
23     citizen.  They don't take that away from us.  We can't
24     express our views, but we do keep our citizenship.
25  3399                 MR. MORRISON:  I thought that forcing


 1     you to live in the National Capital Region was just
 2     about the same thing.
 3  3400                 What I wanted to say was that I
 4     recall Chairman Spicer at one point, when the
 5     predecessor of the current CCTA President was before
 6     him opposing NewsWorld on a matter of a fee increase
 7     and speaking for all of the cable customers of the
 8     country, and Chairman Spicer at the time said, "If you
 9     were Westinghouse, would you come before us and speak
10     for all the owners of refrigerators in the country?"  I
11     think Chairman Spicer had a point there.
12  3401                 The cable industry is learning slowly
13     to think in a competitive mode and to think in a market
14     mode, but our supporters tell us that they are very
15     unimpressed with the cable industry's response to their
16     concerns as subscribers, and I think they have a long
17     way to go before you should rely on them as an
18     indicator here of what people do and do not want.
19  3402                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Are you
20     disagreeing with the point that the cable operators are
21     closer to the customers and what they want than we are?
22  3403                 MR. MORRISON:  Yes.  I think I speak
23     for a lot of Canadians when I express a certain -- in
24     fact, many people would get emotional about it.  The
25     cable industry is held in rather ill repute by the


 1     Canadian public on a comparative basis.
 2  3404                 We have submitted polling data to
 3     this Commission over a number of years that would
 4     establish that.  It's held in lower regard, for
 5     example, than the telephone industry, which also
 6     operates in a fairly strong mode vis-a-vis its
 7     customers.
 8  3405                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I think the
 9     CCTA or the cable case has been based more around the
10     issue of customer choice, but is there an element of
11     gatekeeping there where they're making essentially
12     programming choices as to what we get to see and what
13     they think are important?
14  3406                 MR. MORRISON:  Gatekeeping and
15     packaging and a range of things, and I thought that the
16     questioning of your colleagues was quite proficient in
17     drawing out some of the contradictions in their
18     position.
19  3407                 They are in the aggregate a
20     profitable industry, a regulated industry.  Other than
21     basic, their rates are not controlled by this
22     Commission, and if there is a certain cost that you
23     decide that they have to bear, according to these
24     accounting allocations, to do the right thing in this
25     applicant's case, we're satisfied that they can


 1     accommodate those costs and we would like them to in
 2     the national interest.
 3  3408                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Lastly I want
 4     to ask you a little bit about production and the role
 5     of APTN in the Canadian production industry.  It's an
 6     area that you're quite familiar with and have talked
 7     about the importance of Canadian content and Canadian
 8     productions.
 9  3409                 What do you think APTN offers to the
10     Canadian production industry as an avenue or in any
11     other way?
12  3410                 MR. MORRISON:  Mr. Montour, I
13     believe, referred to the training issue.  It's a very,
14     very important thing to provide first opportunities for
15     people to get a start in the television business, and
16     to provide that to the aboriginal population of Canada
17     in a focused way is an important contribution.
18  3411                 But the opportunity to take creative
19     control and to present your cultures to others from
20     your own point of view is an opportunity to do
21     something very creative.  You will be strengthening
22     and, in a way, balancing the access of Canadians to
23     their own cultures when you make these resources
24     available, as you should.
25  3412                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  What do you


 1     think of Tina Keeper's point that having APTN on the
 2     scene would present a challenge to the other
 3     broadcasters to do something about their, shall we call
 4     it, lack of reflection of aboriginal people?
 5  3413                 MR. MORRISON:  I hope she's right,
 6     but having sat in the audience here and witnessed some
 7     of the speeches by some of Canada's largest
 8     broadcasters, one of whom I praised a few minutes ago,
 9     about diversity in this country just a few weeks ago, I
10     think you have to keep an eye on them.
11  3414                 It's a regulated industry and they
12     all have certain responsibilities vis-a-vis the
13     Broadcasting Act priority to aboriginal people.  So,
14     while I would hope that the Aboriginal Peoples
15     Television Network would stimulate more and better
16     programming and, indeed, as I referred to in my brief
17     comments, second windows and collaboration amongst
18     broadcasters, sharing of costs, if anyone were to take
19     the view that that had handled the question of
20     aboriginal portrayal by the rest of the broadcasting
21     system, I think it would be your job, through the
22     licensing process and your normal scrutiny, to attach
23     conditions of licence and expectations to make sure
24     that that is not right.
25  3415                 Hopefully Tina Keeper is right and my


 1     concern is misplaced.
 2  3416                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks very
 3     much.  Those are my questions, Madam Chair.
 4  3417                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner
 5     Pennefather.
 6  3418                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 7     Madam Chair.  I have a question of clarification, Mr.
 8     Morrison.
 9  3419                 On page 3 you say that the Commission
10     should ensure that Aboriginal Peoples Television
11     Network receives widespread distribution, should be
12     available in each Canadian household.  On page 6,
13     Friends urges you to license the applicant and to
14     ensure its widespread dissemination using the tools at
15     your disposal.
16  3420                 Do you support mandatory carriage for
17     this application?
18  3421                 MR. MORRISON:  Yes, but we also have
19     quite a bit of respect for this Commission.  You might
20     find more than one way to accomplish the widespread
21     distribution.
22  3422                 So, while, yes, we support the
23     application without hesitation, we also have noticed
24     that it is wise to put one's confidence in the
25     Commission and the Commission staff to think of


 1     creative alternatives to accomplish the same result.
 2  3423                 The real goal is that the vast
 3     majority, a large proportion of the Canadian public
 4     have access to this signal in their household.  You
 5     know better than a group like the Friends of Canadian
 6     Broadcasting what is the best means to achieve that
 7     end.
 8  3424                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And do you
 9     have a suggestion in that regard?
10  3425                 MR. MORRISON:  Licence them as they
11     request.
12  3426                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Mandatory
13     carriage?
14  3427                 MR. MORRISON:  Yes.
15  3428                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's so nice to
16     know that someone thinks we know better.  You've seen
17     the light, Mr. Morrison.
18  3429                 MR. MORRISON:  I've got an
19     appointment in ten days' time to discuss that very
20     topic with a Liberal caucus committee examining your
21     role.
22  3430                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I hope you tell
23     them.  On that basis, you're welcome any time.  Thank
24     you for your participation and have a nice weekend.
25  3431                 MR. MORRISON:  Thanks.


 1  3432                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will now take a
 2     well-deserved break until 10 after 5:00 and come back. 
 3     We do regret keeping people late, but I think what's
 4     more important is that we have a thorough look at
 5     applications and a full chance to intervene.
 6     --- Short Recess at / Courte suspension à 1700
 7     --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1710
 8  3433                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon.
 9     Madam Secretary.
10  3434                 MS SANTERRE:  The next presentation
11     will be done by Brenco Media Limited.
13  3435                 MS CHAMBERS:  Thank you for the
14     opportunity to appear at this hearing.
15  3436                 My name is Brenda Chambers.  I am a
16     member of the Champagne-Asaak First Nation, in the
17     Yukon.  I am here to support the licence application of
18     APTN.
19  3437                 I am also here to say that Aboriginal
20     broadcasting is not an exercise in public relations.  I
21     believe passionately in the need for Aboriginal access
22     to the media.  I believe Aboriginal people need some
23     editorial control of that media.  And I believe private
24     and public broadcasters have failed miserably in their
25     responsibility to provide that access and that control.


 1  3438                 I have been producing television
 2     programs for and about Aboriginal people for over 15
 3     years.  I am a former producer and general manager of
 4     Northern Native Broadcasting, Yukon.  I was involved in
 5     creating NAIDA well over 14 years ago in the Yukon and
 6     have also been involved in the creation of Television
 7     Northern Canada.
 8  3439                 I have hosted a variety of television
 9     programs.  I have also been in the creation of
10     production funds and regulatory discussions and have
11     made numerous appearances before this Commission in
12     defence of Aboriginal broadcasting.
13  3440                 And also with me is Jim Compton who
14     is also a producer out of Winnipeg and he has also
15     produced numerous programs in mainstream media.  He is
16     here to answer any questions that you may have in
17     regards to productions in mainstream media.
18  3441                 I currently operate a production
19     company called Brenco Media.  My most recent work is
20     the CBC television series "All My Relations", which
21     aired on the network last March and on Newsworld in
22     June.
23  3442                 With the exception of some technical
24     support, "All My Relations" was produced exclusively by
25     Aboriginal people.  The series received tremendous


 1     feedback from all sectors of society, native,
 2     non-native, business, political, academic and others. 
 3     There was overwhelming agreement that it provided a
 4     much needed insight into the Aboriginal community.  It
 5     was a valuable form for the promotion of cross-cultural
 6     understanding.  Viewers felt strongly that the pilot
 7     should become a permanent series on CBC television.
 8  3443                 This confirms, at least in my mind,
 9     an appetite for knowledge and understanding of
10     Aboriginal culture, concerns and issues.  And we can
11     extrapolate from the experience of "All My Relations"
12     the response to a greater concentration of Aboriginal
13     programming in Canada if a single pilot series can
14     generate such an enthusiastic response, imagine the
15     reaction to an entire channel dedicated to such
16     programs.
17  3444                 When the CBC was created, some 60
18     years ago, the government of the day was very concerned
19     about Canadian identity.  The surge of American radio
20     programs which washed over the 49th parallel and
21     spilled into the homes of Canadians, the dilution of
22     Canadian culture was a very real threat.  The only
23     defence was to promote Canadian programming and
24     Canadian broadcast facilities.  Hence, the creation of
25     the CBC.


 1  3445                 So in December of 1928, Sir John Aird
 2     was appointed to head a Royal Commission on
 3     Broadcasting.  Nine months later, he presented a
 4     29-page report.  It was short, but to the point.  He
 5     concluded that the interests of the public can be
 6     adequately served only by some form of public ownership
 7     and control.  He was talking about giving Canadians the
 8     ability to maintain and use their own voice, to tell
 9     their own stories, to express their own beliefs.  In
10     his words, Canadians want Canadian programming.
11  3446                 And being a visionary, Aird looked
12     ahead to the future, concluding that television, not
13     much more than science fiction at the time, would soon
14     be a reality, and that same cultural principles would
15     one day apply to it, too.
16  3447                 So I carry forward Sir John Aird's
17     argument to present day and I apply that argument to
18     the cultures that make up this country.  Aboriginal
19     people want Aboriginal programming.  We need ownership
20     and control.  We want to avoid the same fate that Sir
21     John envisioned 70 years ago.  We want to protect
22     ourselves.  And the best way to do that is to utilize
23     the most powerful medium of the day.
24  3448                 That means producing programs and
25     helping others produce programs about Aboriginal life


 1     in Canada.  It means putting as many of our faces on TV
 2     as we possibly can.  That is not always an easy job.
 3  3449                 Storytellers are abundant, native
 4     journalists and technical people are available. 
 5     Securing funding is an ongoing challenge, but the real
 6     problem, I think is access.
 7  3450                 There has never been a real
 8     commitment to Aboriginal broadcasting in Canada.  The
 9     federal government has provided television support for
10     radio and TV productions under a variety of programs
11     that has been more of an appeasement than a priority.
12  3451                 The mainstream media, the non-native
13     media in Canada covers Aboriginal affairs in a reactive
14     way:  Another report, another court case, a batch of
15     new statistics, a blockade, to catch the attention of
16     reporters and suddenly native people are in the news. 
17     There is a short frenzy and then it is over.
18  3452                 Public and private broadcasters
19     sending reporters to cover Aboriginal stories is not
20     the same as Aboriginal broadcasting.  In reality, they
21     are simply fulfilling their licence obligations. As for
22     their moral obligations to Aboriginal people, native
23     people demand and have the right to their own voice. 
24     Filtering that voice through the media is not
25     acceptable.  The end result is an interpretation of


 1     what Aboriginal people are saying.
 2  3453                 We want an ongoing voice, we want to
 3     develop our own news agenda, one that reflects our
 4     concerns, view point and reality.  We want to be able
 5     to say to viewers and listeners:  This is important to
 6     us.
 7  3454                 And is Aboriginal culture important
 8     to the rest of Canada?  It certainly comes across as
 9     valuable in official presentations to the United
10     Nations.  The tourism industry certainly uses our
11     culture to sell Canada as a destination.  Most museums
12     prominently and proudly display our cultural artefacts. 
13     That all makes it very valuable.
14  3455                 But how much is Aboriginal culture
15     worth to Canadians?  15 cents per household per month? 
16     Maybe a little more than a cup of coffee a year?  My
17     people need APTN and they need mandatory carriage to
18     ensure its vitality.  To be clear, APTN must generate
19     considerable revenues to operate broadcasting.
20  3456                 But unlike private broadcasters who
21     have shareholders to reward, APTN is not about money. 
22     It is about culture, it is about identity, it is about
23     role models, inspiration and achievement.  Aboriginal
24     people must have a guaranteed voice in the mass media. 
25     Television is a crucial tool in our efforts to maintain


 1     a strong and distinct cultural identity.  Ready access
 2     to it TV across Canada will allow us to reflect our
 3     lives to one another and to all our neighbours.  No
 4     other broadcaster has or will commit to making that
 5     happen.  So we must do it ourselves.
 6  3457                 By rejecting APTN's licence, you will
 7     be rejecting our right to stand on even ground with
 8     other cultural groups in Canada.  By supporting this
 9     application, you will giving us the opportunity to stop
10     the ghettoizing of Aboriginal culture.
11  3458                 I have worked for many years to
12     enhance and promote the aspirations of Aboriginal
13     producers, broadcasters and people in Canada.  And I am
14     anxious to continue producing programs for and about my
15     people.  But to do the job properly, we need your
16     support of APTN.
17  3459                 Thank you for the opportunity to
18     appear before you today.  And remember:  Canadians want
19     Canadian programming; Aboriginal people want Aboriginal
20     programming.  Thank you.
21  3460                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
22     Chambers.
23  3461                 Mr. Compton?
24  3462                 MR. COMPTON:  Yeah, thanks.  I was
25     not scheduled to appear today, but after hearing


 1     certain things today, I thought that I might add my
 2     voice to the hearing.
 3  3463                 As well, you know, I am also a
 4     producer of a show called "The Sharing Circle".  And,
 5     like my good friend, Gary Farmer, we are doing a piece
 6     on it for the show.  And I think it is an example of
 7     how we have been forced to beg, borrow and steel to get
 8     our programming up and running within this country.
 9  3464                 I am compelled to speak today.  I
10     would like to thank Brenda for offering her seat to me. 
11     I think one of the questions that I want to ask, and I
12     do not want to keep anyone here any longer than they
13     have to be, but one of the questions was from
14     Commissioner Pennefather was what can APTN do for
15     Canadians.  And I would like to speak on what I know.
16  3465                 I have been in the television
17     business for the last 17 years; nine with CBC and eight
18     in the privates.  Over the last five years, I have done
19     a show called "The Sharing Circle".  And I would like
20     to speak on how the privates and the public
21     broadcasters skirt their responsibilities in relation
22     to Aboriginal broadcasting based on the Aboriginal
23     broadcasting section of the act.
24  3466                 For example, it has become a way of
25     looking good with the commission to say that when we or


 1     private broadcasters or the public broadcasters say: 
 2     Well, we want to get a licence and we are going to do
 3     some Aboriginal programming, and I will use "The
 4     Sharing Circle" as an example.  I would say that maybe
 5     I might not have a job when I get back, but that is
 6     okay.
 7  3467                 We have been doing it for the last
 8     five years and their application for a licence in
 9     Manitoba under Craig Broadcasting was that they would
10     have Aboriginal programming.  So they decided that they
11     will get some Aboriginal people who are in the business
12     and ask them to put on a show.  So "The Sharing Circle"
13     was the show.
14  3468                 When we started out, we had a 6 p.m.
15     time slot, we got cameras and we got editing equipment
16     and we were allowed to do 26 shows per year on a
17     52-week run.
18  3469                 After two, three years of, like I
19     say, beg, borrowing and steeling to try and get the
20     program up.  For example, you know, getting other
21     people to pay our travel to get to Ottawa to do a story
22     or airfares and what have you, and getting those things
23     happening, because we did not have a budget for travel,
24     for example, we found ourselves slowly being moved from
25     a 6 o'clock time slot.  In our case it was 10 o'clock


 1     in the morning and at six in the evening on a Sunday. 
 2     We had, for Aboriginal people it was after church and
 3     before bingo.  So it was a good time slot.  But as we
 4     went along, it sort of went back to 8 o'clock, 9
 5     o'clock and today we have an 11 o'clock time slot on
 6     the station.
 7  3470                 At the same time, Craig Broadcasting
 8     wanted to expand their horizon so they applied for a
 9     licence in Alberta and again they use "The Sharing
10     Circle".
11  3471                 And we had even made a video
12     presentation to the commission for the licence based on
13     that.  And now they have a 6 o'clock time slot in
14     Alberta.  But now, you know, like I say, we are at 11
15     o'clock in Manitoba and we have no way of getting a
16     good time slot for ourselves.  We don't have the
17     resources to do what we want.
18  3472                 Our camera is here.  And they pay us
19     40 cents on the dollar for our camera, for example.  So
20     they do not pay what it costs to do effective
21     programming.  So I think it is one example of -- and I
22     don't know what is going to happen in Alberta, but I do
23     feel that if they wanted to skirt their obligations to
24     the Aboriginal section of the act, that they will and
25     they could.  I think that will happen and it is all


 1     based on, I guess, revenues.
 2  3473                 But that is just one example of how
 3     the public and the private people do that.  I mean, I
 4     worked nine years at CBC as well and I think that their
 5     commitments were not always there for Aboriginal
 6     programming which is something that as an Aboriginal
 7     person I had strived to have on the air and thought I
 8     did a good job.
 9  3474                 But, in the end, what happens with
10     Aboriginal people is we hit a wall.  We cannot get any
11     further within the business.  We can't become
12     producers.  We cannot get into management.  We cannot
13     decide on what kind of programming that we want that
14     will affect our people and that just does not happen.
15  3475                 So I think that with an Aboriginal
16     network that is run by Aboriginal people that
17     understand Aboriginal issues, that understand
18     Aboriginal stories, that we will get, number one,
19     proper funding to do the programming and understanding
20     and insights to what we are all about and I think that
21     we can reflect that to other Canadians across the
22     country.
23  3476                 Thank you.
24  3477                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
25     Compton.


 1  3478                 Ms Chambers, in your written
 2     presentation, at the last sentence of -- the second to
 3     last paragraph you say:  By supporting APTN's
 4     application, we will be able to stop the ghettoizing of
 5     Aboriginal culture.
 6  3479                 We often hear this, you know,
 7     allegations about ghettoizing being a problem.  Do you
 8     think -- do you mean that because you will have an
 9     outlet when you don't have one, ghettoizing of culture
10     will stop?  Or do you feel that having your own channel
11     will prevent ghettoizing?
12  3480                 We usually get the contrary argument
13     that rather than have it richly, as Mr. Compton has
14     been alluding to in mainstream, that that is better
15     than having your own.
16  3481                 So how are you using the word
17     "ghettoizing" here?  To say that it is ghettoized now
18     because there is no outlet?  Or an outlet of your own
19     goes against ghettoizing because of the control?
20  3482                 MS CHAMBERS:  Well, certainly the
21     control is very important.  And I do mean that in the
22     sense that we are able to control and be responsible
23     for providing our stories in an Aboriginal context.  So
24     I do mean it in that sense.  But I also mean it in the
25     sense that the programming that is out there is never


 1     given a half-decent time slot and it is always at a
 2     time slot that is non-prime especially for our audience
 3     and certainly we are there, but it is not in the best
 4     or we are never given a priority of where our shows can
 5     be shown.
 6  3483                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And in a sense that
 7     is what you referred to by "ghettoizing"?
 8  3484                 MS CHAMBERS:  Yes.
 9  3485                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Put in spots that
10     are less appealing than the rest of the schedule.  And
11     here you will have control not only over what you
12     produce but how you schedule, et cetera?
13  3486                 MS CHAMBERS:  Yes.
14  3487                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  So that -- because
15     you have probably heard the arguments that when you
16     give a special service and you call it a specific --
17     you know, whether it is an Italian service or
18     Aboriginal service, that that is ghettoizing and not
19     something to be striven for.  That, instead, the
20     Commission should be more demanding about how to serve,
21     in your case, Aboriginal producers, et cetera and
22     audiences on the mainstream channel.
23  3488                 MS CHAMBERS:  Yes.
24  3489                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We thank you for
25     your presentation, Ms Chambers and Mr. Compton.  And,


 1     again, we also thank you for your patience because it
 2     is late and it is Friday.  But we are happy that you
 3     did come to speak to us or stay long enough to speak to
 4     us, nevertheless.
 5  3490                 Did someone else have a question?
 6                                                        1730
 7  3491                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Just one quick
 8     question.
 9  3492                 You were talking about programming in
10     Winnipeg, Edmonton and Calgary, and looking at the
11     figures those are certainly the cities with the largest
12     aboriginal populations.  Do you think that is why a
13     broadcaster is interested in having some aboriginal
14     programming in those cities and puts that as a key part
15     of their plan at licensing time, and do you find that
16     broadcasters do similarly in other cities where there
17     are much lower aboriginal populations?
18  3493                 MR. COMPTON:  I can't speak for the
19     cities where there are lower aboriginal populations.  I
20     can't speak for Winnipeg and, of course, Edmonton.
21  3494                 I think that it is a shell game a
22     little bit there.  Essentially, they want the licence
23     and they will do whatever they have to do to get it. 
24     So if they can have, if you will, some token Indians to
25     do a show and reflect on their networks, they will do


 1     that and, as Brenda says, ghettoize it once they have
 2     the licence.
 3  3495                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So, if APTN
 4     were to be licensed and you have an aboriginal
 5     television network, does that then cause them to say,
 6     "Well, we don't need to do that any more, you are doing
 7     that", or will they take the position that Tina Keeper
 8     was suggesting, which was there is a challenge to them?
 9  3496                 Either of you could answer that.
10  3497                 MS CHAMBERS:  I can give you a really
11     good example of that.  I think that it will encourage
12     other broadcasters to start really paying attention to
13     aboriginal issues out there.
14  3498                 When I managed Northern Native
15     Broadcasting in Yukon there was a radio application for
16     a new service into the Yukon, and we kind of looked
17     back before Northern Native Broadcasting was even
18     created in the Yukon.  Prior to the start of that
19     organization there was very little coverage of
20     aboriginal affairs in any kind of positive light in the
21     Yukon, it was a lot of negative statistics, all the
22     things against land claims.  Once the organization
23     started up with radio and television we saw an
24     increased participation or increased stories about
25     aboriginal people in the media, both in print and other


 1     radio stations, in the Yukon, in Whitehorse.
 2  3499                 It was really interesting to take a
 3     look back and see that increase because it certainly
 4     went up, and I think today life in the Yukon --
 5     certainly it is a lot more aware because of the
 6     broadcasting organization there.
 7  3500                 MR. CAMPTON:  Just quickly, if they
 8     are asked to follow the Broadcasting Act in relation to
 9     aboriginal programming, then they should do it and they
10     should do it adequately.  Then we wouldn't have any
11     problems.  Then we wouldn't need an aboriginal network. 
12     That's what I am saying.
13  3501                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I hear your
14     point.  Thanks.
15  3502                 Thanks, Madam Chair.
16  3503                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
17     Ms Chambers and Mr. Compton, and have a good trip back.
18  3504                 Madam Secretary.
19  3505                 MS SANTERRE:  I would like now to
20     invite the Centre for Research-Action on Race
21     Relations, le Centre de recherche-action sur les
22     relations raciales.
24  3506                 M. NIEMI:  Bonsoir, Madame la
25     Présidente, Madame la Conseillère, Monsieur le


 1     Conseiller.  Une fois de plus on vous remercie de nous
 2     avoir accordé l'opportunité de nous présenter et de
 3     participer à ce processus.
 4  3507                 My name is Fo Niemi.  I am the
 5     Executive Director for the CRARR.  Accompanying me is
 6     Dr. Gail Guthrie Valaskakis, former dean of the
 7     Communications Department of Concordia University and
 8     former president of the Montreal Native Friendship
 9     Centre, and currently special advisor to the Rector of
10     Concordia University on Aboriginal Affairs.
11  3508                 Our organization is intervening in
12     this application for the APTN; our singular objective
13     is to support the application.  We consider the
14     application as being very essential to the national,
15     multicultural, multiracial and bilingual fabric of
16     Canada and we fully believe in a need to have a
17     national professional television network with mandatory
18     carriage status.
19  3509                 We would just like to focus on many
20     of the issues in our brief that have not been raised
21     here today.
22  3510                 We believe that one of the most
23     important benefits of this national aboriginal
24     television network is that it will provide a much
25     needed voice for the voice and the face of the Canadian


 1     mosaic by portraying the realities and stories that
 2     complete the Canadian mosaic and that complete the
 3     Canadian identity experience, both at home and abroad.
 4  3511                 We believe that the station will
 5     inform, educate and enlighten non-aboriginal Canadian
 6     citizens and immigrants, especially newcomers, about
 7     the aboriginal people of this country because we are
 8     very concerned about the kind of stereotypes and bias
 9     about aboriginal people and how this kind of bias and
10     stereotype can influence negatively the perception and
11     the attitudes of newcomers, immigrants and also young
12     people of all origins vis-à-vis aboriginal peoples of
13     this country.
14  3512                 We believe, however, that this
15     national aboriginal television network, while being
16     indispensable, should not be used by the broadcasting
17     industry to relieve itself, particularly where the
18     television services are concerned, of the obligation to
19     faithfully and fairly represent and portray First
20     Nations people as required by the Broadcasting Act, and
21     also the television industry should not relieve itself
22     of the obligation that it has towards employment equity
23     as required by the Employment Equity Act, especially
24     when they have 100 employees or more.
25  3513                 If you look at the most recently


 1     available report by Human Resources Development Canada
 2     on employment equity listing the performance of each
 3     communication company in the area of employment equity
 4     for aboriginal people, we see that the situation is
 5     extremely critical because many of these broadcasting
 6     and telecommunications companies register zero in terms
 7     of the number of aboriginal people among their staff.
 8  3514                 We also believe that APTN's
 9     programming should address the needs and interests and
10     aspirations of French-speaking aboriginal people in
11     Quebec, particularly of some of the nations such as the
12     Montagnais-Atikamek, where the French is a language of
13     daily use.  We also believe that, because of the
14     situation in Quebec and the social, political as well
15     as the historical context of Quebec relations with the
16     rest of Canada in dealing with aboriginal affairs, it
17     is important that there be a national voice that
18     reflects aboriginal concerns and aspirations in French
19     so that the rest of the French-speaking Quebec
20     community can better understand what aboriginal issues
21     are all about, especially when it comes to land claims
22     and other claims for resources and rights with regard
23     to fishing and hunting.
24  3515                 One other factor that we are very
25     concerned about is the access on the part of APTN to


 1     funding from different public cultural programs and
 2     private funds.  As we raised earlier in our
 3     intervention on Canadian television, we are very
 4     concerned that many of these funds, both inside
 5     government and private funds, are not accessible to
 6     people of different ethnocultural and aboriginal
 7     backgrounds, particularly where the barriers of
 8     systemic racism are concerned.
 9  3516                 Therefore, we suggest that the CRTC
10     undertake all necessary and appropriate action to
11     ensure that these programs and private funds be
12     accessible because they are, in most cases, not that
13     much of a great help to a lot of people who don't fit
14     into the French Canadian or the English Canadian
15     culture mode of production.
16  3517                 One other factor that can have an
17     impact on APTN survival of programming and operations
18     in the long term is advertising, as mentioned in the
19     application.  Here again, we are concerned about the
20     fact that television advertising in its present state
21     is not representative of the multicultural and
22     multiracial realities of Canadian societies, both in
23     French and in English.
24  3518                 Advertisers and the advertising
25     industry in particular are not that open to cultural


 1     and racial diversity in advertisements.  If we are to
 2     rely on the present state of the advertising industry,
 3     then serious concern should be raised as to the ability
 4     of the advertising industry to open up and to include
 5     aboriginal peoples in its consumer markets, to consider
 6     aboriginal people as important consumers and to reflect
 7     aboriginal realities in its advertising and marketing
 8     strategies.
 9  3519                 Here again we recommend that the CRTC
10     review existing advertising practices and codes to
11     determine the responsiveness to the multicultural and
12     multiracial realities of Canadian society, especially
13     where aboriginal communities are concerned.
14  3520                 We would like to move now to the
15     issue of the need for the CRTC to act in such a way
16     that barriers of systemic racism are indeed addressed
17     and eventually reduced if not eliminated.
18  3521                 We believe, instead of putting the
19     burden on the new network, APTN, to compete with the
20     shall we say very resistant industry when dealing with
21     diversity, especially when APTN can be considered what
22     we normally call a new kid on the block, that the CRTC
23     should act positively by investigating, probing and
24     demanding from industry the removal of these barriers
25     of racism that prevent the First Nations of Canada from 


 1     establishing and operating a national television
 2     network available to both southern and northern
 3     residents.
 4  3522                 In conclusion, we believe that APTN
 5     stands not only as a much needed instrument for
 6     aboriginal development and empowerment but also as a
 7     promising vehicle for public education, culture
 8     enrichment and nation building.  We strongly encourage
 9     the CRTC to make the APTN into a tangible symbol of
10     pride and solidarity for Canadians of aboriginal and
11     non-aboriginal ancestries and a concrete reality for
12     Canada on the eve of the new century.  We would also
13     like to raise the fact that there is still a lot of
14     work to be done in dealing with diversity in
15     broadcasting issues and we hope that the issue of
16     diversity is approached in such a way that we can have
17     a global and comprehensive strategy to ensure that the
18     aboriginal realities and the First Nations people are
19     indeed an integral part of whatever the CRTC does in
20     making sure that the broadcasting system reflects the
21     diversity of Canadian society.
22  3523                 I would like now to invite
23     Dr. Valaskakis to make several short comments to
24     complement our presentation.
25  3524                 DR. VALASKAKIS:  Thank you.


 1  3525                 I am here as a long-time member of
 2     the board of CRARR but I am here wearing many different
 3     hats, and one of the hats is as a researcher who has
 4     worked in the north since 1971 on aboriginal
 5     communications.
 6  3526                 In 1971 I was on the Arctic Institute
 7     Task Force on Broadcasting in the North, and after that
 8     I was evaluator of the Inuluktik Hermes (ph.)
 9     Interactive Project, the Anek B (ph.) Inukshuk Project
10     for IBC Surveys for the native communications societies
11     for the NNBAP program and most recently I did some
12     royal commission work on northern broadcasting and
13     native broadcasting for their research report in that
14     area.
15  3527                 Rather than take much of your time,
16     what I would like to do is pull out some points that
17     are sustained and substantiated in terms of research
18     that has been done over the last 25 years, 30 years,
19     and issues that have come forth over that same period
20     in regard to aboriginal broadcasting.
21  3528                 First, we know not only from my
22     research but the many research reports that have been
23     done within a Canadian context in that period, that
24     media does play a real role in participatory
25     development and that the move from a history of non-


 1     native control and what I would call cultural
 2     replacement to a reality of aboriginal empowerment,
 3     nation building and self-determination has been a move
 4     in which media has played a critical role.
 5  3529                 Second, aboriginal peoples watch
 6     aboriginal television when it is available, listen to
 7     aboriginal radio when it is available and they do so in
 8     great numbers.  In regard to IBC, over 85 per cent of
 9     the people surveyed watched absolutely every time it
10     was on the Inukshuk programming.  And when they do so,
11     they learn from that programming.  They learn new
12     words, new concepts, they learn about their history,
13     they learn things that have to do with their own
14     identity, their own culture but also their self-esteem.
15                                                        1745
16  3530                 They learn things have to do with
17     inter-generational differences, and that communication
18     factor is very important in terms of crossing those
19     inter-generational borders, particularly when we have
20     an enormous group of young aboriginal people coming
21     into the Canadian reality.
22  3531                 That aboriginal media play a role in
23     not only supporting aboriginal identity and cultures,
24     but languages as well.  But while that is the case,
25     there is a very important role for aboriginal media to


 1     play in regard to English language programming.  The
 2     density in regard to aboriginal language is falling and
 3     while language is a critical aspect of culture, it is
 4     not the only aspect of culture.
 5  3532                 Information shared among aboriginal
 6     peoples in English or, in the case of francophone
 7     aboriginal peoples, in French is a meaningful concept.
 8  3533                 That southern aboriginal peoples have
 9     for years asked for access to media which is very
10     difficult to make available to them; and their need is
11     extremely real and very important.
12  3534                 That mainstream media has not and
13     cannot be expected to meet the broadcasting needs of
14     aboriginal peoples, not in terms of relation to
15     programming, not in terms of relation to employment,
16     and not in terms of widespread participation and
17     access.
18  3535                 Mainstream is having your own
19     network.  That is the reverse of ghettoization.  You
20     are mainstream when you have your own network.
21  3536                 And that aboriginal programs have
22     been supported in government policy since the 1970s, in
23     government programs since the 1970s, and in government
24     policy statements in regard to the CRTC as well.
25  3537                 Sitting in this room, I feel like I


 1     am sitting in the shadow of Rhéal Therrien, because I
 2     have sat here across from him on occasions before.  I
 3     think how touched he would be to be in this room for
 4     this hearing, were he with us.
 5  3538                 It reminds me again of the many, many
 6     times that we have discussed and made a commitment to
 7     policy and programs in support of aboriginal
 8     broadcasting.
 9  3539                 And that, as well, the Royal
10     Commission expressed tremendous concern on the part of
11     aboriginal peoples in regard to five issues.
12  3540                 One was access, probably the most
13     important.  A second was training.  A third was media
14     resources and the availability of media resources for
15     aboriginal people.  A fourth was funding.  And a fifth
16     was the entrenchment of policy and legislation, but
17     also the manoeuvrability and the reality of programs --
18     access and all these other factors -- in regard to what
19     is already in policy and legislation.
20  3541                 Finally, in the long boom and bust
21     history of aboriginal peoples and government policy, I
22     think we have many examples of unintended planned
23     failure.  And that unintended planned failure has to do
24     with not enough support or funding or structures to
25     support the initiative that was put in place.


 1  3542                 For all these reasons, I say this is
 2     the moment.  It is a moment of incredible power for me,
 3     because for 30 years I and many other people have
 4     worked in regard to research in terms of aboriginal
 5     broadcasting.  Those people were all part of a system
 6     that moves us toward this moment.
 7  3543                 This moment is one in which we have
 8     within the palms of our hands the full reality of a
 9     first broadcasting service for aboriginal peoples.  We
10     have within our hands the block of a basic relationship
11     between aboriginal peoples and other Canadians.
12  3544                 I urge the Commission, on the basis
13     of all of that work over those many, many years for
14     everyone, particularly the aboriginal community, to
15     approve APTN's application for a mandatory carriage on
16     basic service.
17  3545                 Thank you.
18  3546                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Dr.
19     Valaskakis.
20     --- Applause / Applaudissements
21  3547                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am sure it is not
22     my words you are applauding.
23  3548                 Commissioner Cardozo.
24  3549                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
25     Madam Chair.


 1  3550                 Thank you, Mr. Niemi and Dr.
 2     Valaskakis, for your presentation.  Your written
 3     submission and your verbal presentation today are very
 4     clear, and there is not a whole lot more to say.
 5  3551                 I just have a couple of questions,
 6     but first an observation.
 7  3552                 I note the particular race relations
 8     perspective that you have brought to the discussion. 
 9     It has been talked about in various ways over the last
10     two days, but I think through you work and what you
11     have said today you have perhaps sharpened that focus
12     of this discussion.
13  3553                 We discussed yesterday -- and I hope
14     I didn't take the wind out of your sails, Mr. Niemi,
15     the matter of French language presentation.
16  3554                 What APTN is planning is 7.5 hours of
17     French language programming out of 121.5.  In the
18     discussion they seemed to be open to more, recognizing
19     the precise point that you made about the Montagnais
20     and other aboriginal peoples in Quebec who are French
21     speaking besides their aboriginal language.
22  3555                 What would your recommendation be
23     about a figure?
24  3556                 You have suggested that they be
25     encouraged to increase over time.  Have you got


 1     anything specific to recommend in that regard?
 2  3557                 MR. NIEMI:  One of our advisors is an
 3     aboriginal lawyer in Sept-Iles.  In dealing with this
 4     matter, because of the distinct context of Quebec with
 5     regard to practically everything we do, it is important
 6     perhaps to have a parallel or second phase of study or
 7     consultation with aboriginal peoples in Quebec who
 8     speak French, in order to see how we can best address
 9     the needs or the aspirations of French speaking
10     aboriginal peoples there.
11  3558                 The data also show that there are 11
12     nations in Quebec. Some are unilingual English; some
13     are French speaking; and other aboriginal people.
14  3559                 The geographical spread is such that
15     it is important to look at how the French dimension
16     should be addressed.
17  3560                 I think we can draw the parallel with
18     regard to the CBC or Société Radio-Canada, even though
19     it is considered the same company, but in terms of the
20     operations.  The programming is practically as if it
21     were two different aspects of the same company running
22     in two different languages.
23  3561                 We would suggest that that would be
24     one way for APTN to see how that French component of
25     its audience and the aboriginal peoples in Quebec


 1     should be addressed.
 2  3562                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regard to
 3     funds, you suggested that the funds that are provided
 4     for production should be more attentive to aboriginal
 5     needs.  As you know, we don't run or control those
 6     funds, but do sometimes make recommendations or voice
 7     our opinions on them.
 8  3563                 Is that what you are suggesting we
 9     should do?
10  3564                 MR. NIEMI:  In our previous
11     intervention on Canadian television, we already raised
12     the possible discriminatory nature of the definition of
13     Canadian citizens in the Canadian content policy.  The
14     way it is now, in the Canadian content policy as used
15     by the Telefilm and Canadian Heritage and the CRTC, we
16     are talking about Canadian citizens.
17  3565                 So if you have in this case
18     aboriginal people who are not Canadian citizens but who
19     can participate in a production, then that would be one
20     way of -- perhaps it would have an adverse impact or
21     discriminatory nature effect on those aboriginal
22     peoples.
23  3566                 The other thing is when we have to
24     look at some of the practices, especially in the
25     evaluation --


 1  3567                 I'm sorry, this is Friday the 13th,
 2     and we have been thinking of what bus we are going to
 3     catch later to go back to Montreal.
 4  3568                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  We are going
 5     to keep everyone here for a long time, so you don't
 6     have to travel on Friday, the 13th.
 7  3569                 MR. NIEMI:  Thanks a lot.
 8  3570                 We have to give attention to certain
 9     policies, administrative practices that can have an
10     opinion or adverse impact.  We know in one case, for
11     example, in the evaluation of certain film production
12     proposals, the use of external evaluators who were
13     often white or who have no knowledge of aboriginal
14     context and culture -- some of those practices used by
15     some of these public cultural funding programs or by
16     private funds can have an adverse impact on proposals
17     by aboriginal peoples or minority film producers.
18  3571                 My short answer to your question is
19     yes, it is important that somehow, through all
20     available powers and authority, that the CRTC should
21     see if they can take a look at some of these issues.
22  3572                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  At the way the
23     funds are used.
24  3573                 Lastly, Dr. Valaskakis, I was
25     intrigued by your term "unintended planned failure".


 1  3574                 Given the application we have before
 2     us and the business and financial plan that they have
 3     outlined, where some intervenors have said license them
 4     but not on a mandatory basis, would that be unintended
 5     planned failure?
 6  3575                 DR. VALASKAKIS:  Absolutely.  In my
 7     view, absolutely.
 8  3576                 To license and not have it be
 9     mandatory, I think this has been a long time coming,
10     and it deserves the best shot it can have.
11  3577                 It is because the future of Canada
12     is, in my view, morally, and to some extent literally,
13     at stake in regard to its relationship with aboriginal
14     peoples; and because of the role that media plays in
15     that relationship, in the way that we represent
16     ourselves to each other, and in the need for our
17     independent voices, and the need for our own voices.
18  3578                 You absolutely, I think, must give
19     this the best shot it can have.  And the best shot it
20     can have is mandatory carriage on basic.
21  3579                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I had better
22     say thanks very much in case people start clapping
23     again.
24  3580                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Dr.
25     Valaskakis and Mr. Niemi.  I hope you have a good trip


 1     back.  Friday the 13th is fine.  Just drive slowly.
 2  3581                 Madam Secretary.
 3  3582                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 4  3583                 The following intervenors have agreed
 5     to come forward to present their interventions one
 6     after the other.
 7  3584                 It will be Clarence Michon, Adam
 8     Beach and Mr. Joseph Driver.
 9  3585                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good afternoon, Mr.
10     Michon, Mr. Beach and Mr. Dreaver.
11  3586                 First, we thank you for accommodating
12     us in sitting together.  It saves some time.  But I
13     hope you feel that you have all the time you need to
14     express yourselves to us.
15  3587                 There is always travel time in
16     changing crew that is saved by agreeing to do this.
17  3588                 Please proceed.
18                                                        1800
20  3589                 MR. MICHON:  I certainly appreciate
21     the moral support.  Generally my place is behind the
22     camera; however, I chose to be in front of the camera
23     today because I strongly believe in this initiative.
24  3590                 Good afternoon, Madam Chair,
25     Commissioners, ladies and gentlemen.  I would like to


 1     thank the Commissioners for affording me this
 2     opportunity to voice my concerns as they relate to CRTC
 3     Application No. 199804068, regarding Television
 4     Northern Canada's application to obtain a broadcast
 5     licence to operate as the Aboriginal Peoples Television
 6     Network.
 7  3591                 I would like to capsulate my views
 8     and concerns in this presentation for your review.  I
 9     must note that my opinions have been formulated as both
10     a Canadian and as a person of aboriginal descent,
11     neither taking precedent.
12  3592                 In addition, I would also like to
13     mention that I have had a past association with the
14     applicant as a contributor to TVNC's programming.  This
15     occurred when I was senior television producer with
16     Wawatay Native Communications Society in Moose Factory
17     for four years during 1993 through 1997.  However, I am
18     currently an independent producer and have just moved
19     to the Ottawa region.
20  3593                 I have reviewed schedule 29 of the
21     application submitted by TVNC and, in my opinion, I
22     have found it to be comprehensive and concise in its
23     objectives to become Canada's premier supplier of
24     aboriginal programming.  I am assured and comfortable
25     with the fact that, as a national broadcaster, APTN


 1     will be an effective television network with the
 2     ability to strengthen and promote the cultural,
 3     political, social and economic aspirations of Canada's
 4     aboriginal peoples.
 5  3594                 Without diminishing or negating any
 6     of the elements of TVNC's application, I have expounded
 7     upon four of the most compelling reasons why I think
 8     TVNC should become Canada's next national broadcaster
 9     as it takes the role of APTN.
10  3595                 I have correlated the most intriguing
11     elements of TVNC's schedule 39 and the Canadian
12     Broadcasting Act for this purpose.
13  3596                 First and foremost, with the
14     inception of TVNC we will finally see the objective, as
15     set out in section 3(d) of the Broadcasting Act, truly
16     realized.
17  3597                 For the benefit of those who are not
18     familiar with that section I will quote it.  It reads:
19                            " -- through its programming and
20                            the employment opportunities
21                            arising out of its operation,
22                            serve the needs and interests
23                            and reflect the circumstances
24                            and aspirations of Canadian men,
25                            women and children, including


 1                            the equal rights of a linguistic
 2                            duality and the multicultural
 3                            and multiracial nature of
 4                            Canadian society, and the
 5                            special place of aboriginal
 6                            peoples within that society." 
 7                            (As read)
 8  3598                 I believe that Canada's aboriginal
 9     peoples should be able to define their "special place"
10     within Canadian society as it relates to broadcasting. 
11     I am certain the act was legislated to facilitate a
12     network such as APTN and not as a token gesture to
13     relegate aboriginal peoples to the fringes of that
14     society.
15  3599                 I believe the opportunity has
16     presented itself for aboriginal peoples to now take
17     their special place in the broadcasting framework of
18     Canada through the establishment of APTN.  This
19     opportunity should not be denied.
20  3600                 Secondly, APTN will provide a forum
21     for Canadians to be exposed to the expression on
22     differing views on matters of public concern and be
23     provided with a balance on information on which to base
24     their opinions, as per subsections 3(I)-(iv) and 3(I)-
25     (i).


 1  3601                 With the establishment of APTN,
 2     aboriginal peoples of all of Canada can take their
 3     cameras and open the aperture a bit to reveal a
 4     comprehensive look at aboriginal concerns through
 5     aboriginal eyes.  In my opinion, this opportunity has
 6     not been afforded to us on a consistent basis.  With
 7     the establishment of APTN, on a daily basis we will be
 8     given that opportunity.  This can go a long way in
 9     fostering a better understanding of our concerns and,
10     ultimately, better relations between aboriginal peoples
11     and the Canadian general public.
12  3602                 The third point I would like to
13     address is the issue of accessibility as it relates to
14     the Northern Native Access to Broadcasting Policy.
15  3603                 The Northern Native Access to
16     Broadcasting Policy, as the name denotes, was designed
17     to accommodate and establish aboriginal broadcasting in
18     the north above the Hamelin line, the 50th parallel. 
19     Upon review of the Northern Native Access to
20     Broadcasting Policy we have witnessed the success of
21     that initiative and it is probably the reason we are
22     here today.  Much of that success can be attributed to
23     TVNC, which has proven itself to be a responsible
24     broadcaster with a great deal of vision and integrity.
25  3604                 However, given the fact that many of


 1     Canadian aboriginal peoples reside in the south, it can
 2     be contended that southern people of aboriginal descent
 3     have not been afforded the same opportunities that
 4     those in the north have.  Also, for that matter,
 5     Canadians in general have been denied the opportunity
 6     to see the benefits of aboriginal broadcasting and all
 7     its successes.
 8  3605                 The question remains:  How do we
 9     assure that southern aboriginal peoples and producers
10     will be given the same opportunities to express their
11     concerns to the Canadian general public through the
12     medium of television on a national level?
13  3606                 The answer is simple:  Provide a
14     broadcaster who has the integrity and the conviction
15     with the means to serve all of Canada's aboriginal
16     peoples.
17  3607                 It is evident that TVNC is that
18     broadcaster, and they have been abundantly clear that
19     they will endeavour to do so as it evolves into APTN.
20  3608                 The last point I would like the
21     Commissioners to observe is section 3(o) of the
22     Broadcasting Act.  Again I will read it for
23     clarification.  It states:
24                            "Programming that reflects the
25                            aboriginal cultures of Canada


 1                            should be provided within the
 2                            Canadian broadcasting system as
 3                            resources become available for
 4                            that purpose."  (As read)
 5  3609                 In the interest of pursuing what
 6     "resources" means -- and this is on a personal level --
 7     I remain perplexed.  Does it mean technological, human,
 8     financial, or all three?
 9  3610                 The question is somewhat rhetorical. 
10     I have already surmised that most of Canada's current
11     licensed broadcasters have not made a concerted effort
12     to avail their resources, in whatever form, to
13     accommodate aboriginal programming on a consistent
14     basis.  Could it be because they do not find it viable,
15     feasible, or simply because they lack the apathy to do
16     so?
17  3611                 By asking this question it is not my
18     intention to single out any broadcaster in particular
19     or to have them come to their defence; I am simply
20     pointing this out for one reason only.
21  3612                 I believe that by providing TVNC with
22     a licence to operate as APTN, the funds generated
23     through licence fees will assure Canada's aboriginal
24     community the financial resources to carry on
25     broadcasting at a time when we are threatened with


 1     cutbacks.
 2  3613                 In addition, once those financial
 3     resources are secured, then there will be opportunity
 4     for the technological and human resources to
 5     materialize.  Given this assurance, TVNC can then
 6     comfortably endeavour to become the national voice for
 7     Canada's aboriginal peoples.
 8  3614                 In closing, at a time when Canadian
 9     identity is being compromised through the influx of
10     foreign media, primarily U.S., aboriginal identity is
11     also being inundated and imposed upon that much more. 
12     This leaves Canada's aboriginal peoples wading through
13     the deluge, searching for something they can hold onto,
14     something they can call their own.  It is apparent,
15     then, that Canada's aboriginal groups have an urgent
16     need for the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network. 
17     The time is now for APTN to be established, before our
18     identity becomes diluted to the point where we do not
19     recognize our identity in its truest form.  I believe
20     it is not too late.
21  3615                 Taking all that I have stated and all
22     of the elements of TVNC's schedule 29, it is evident,
23     in my opinion, that the Commission will be hard pressed
24     to deny a licence for TVNC to operate as APTN.
25  3616                 Finally, I would like to leave you


 1     with these words.  They are part of a speech that Ms
 2     Laura Talbot-Allan gave on behalf of the Commission to
 3     the International Symposium of the prestigious Carl
 4     Bertlesman Prize, 1998, in which Canada was recognized
 5     on the international stage as a leader and innovator in
 6     communications technologies.
 7  3617                 In her closing remarks she said: 
 8     "Promoting one's culture is not tantamount to rejecting
 9     the culture of others".
10  3618                 With those remarks I hope the
11     Commission will view TVNC's application to operate as
12     the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network as an
13     exercise in integrity, innovation, boldness and perhaps
14     even moral obligation.
15  3619                 I look forward to the positive
16     outcome in the coming months on this very important
17     initiative by TVNC.  I wish the Commission and TVNC
18     well in their deliberations.  Thank you.
19  3620                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
20     Michon.
21  3621                 Mr. Beach ...
22  3622                 MR. BEACH:  My name is Adam Beach.  I
23     am Ojibway from northern Manitoba.  I have been acting
24     for over ten years.
25  3623                 I will never forget the time when I


 1     was on the set of the Disney movie "Squanto" and the
 2     director asked me to "run like an Indian.  Jump from a
 3     ledge and say something in Indian".
 4  3624                 Of course, there were several
 5     difficulties with what I was told to do, the least of
 6     which was jumping from the ledge.
 7  3625                 First, how does one run like an
 8     Indian?  I guess I run like an Indian by virtue of
 9     being a member of this continent's first peoples.  But
10     one would gather from the director that there is an
11     Indian way of running, that all Indians run this way,
12     and this way is different from the way other
13     nationalities run.
14  3626                 The second problem with what I was
15     told to do had to do with the language thing:  saying
16     something in Indian.  There is no one aboriginal
17     language.  Plains Cree do not speak the same tongue as
18     northern Quebec Cree.  Nisga'a peoples do not speak
19     Innu, and I don't know Mic Mac.  To be indigenous does
20     not mean to be the same as all other native peoples; it
21     means that we are the original peoples of the land.
22  3627                 I am confronted by stereotypes every
23     time I work.  Sometimes I am asked to perpetuate
24     stereotypes, and sometimes I am given a hand in
25     breaking down some of the stereotypes that the


 1     entertainment industry has built up about First Nations
 2     peoples.
 3  3628                 A film called "Smoke Signals", which
 4     I did with a friend of mine, Gary Farmer, broke down a
 5     lot of stereotypes.  It was the first full-length
 6     motion picture co-produced, written, directed and acted
 7     by North American First Nations.  It was a landmark and
 8     something I was very proud to be a part of.
 9  3629                 I would also like to think that
10     "Smoke Signals" held meaning for people.  I hope it
11     taught people something, maybe about relationships and
12     forgiveness.  Native peoples have a lot to teach other
13     nations.
14  3630                 One of the lines of Ian Ross' play
15     "Farewell", which is playing here in Ottawa, says that
16     as more people in Canada become dependent on welfare
17     they can learn from natives who have been on welfare
18     for a long time now.  I think that we have more to
19     teach than that.  This is what my vision of the
20     Aboriginal Peoples Television Network holds.
21  3631                 Thank you.
22                                                        1815
23  3632                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
24     Beach.  We're certainly glad you didn't run away at
25     4:00.


 1  3633                 Mr. Dreaver.
 2  3634                 MR. DREAVER:  Madam Chair, Members of
 3     the Commission, I'd like to say thank you for welcoming
 4     me here.  It feels good to be seated on Algonquin
 5     territory.  I say that as I begin my presentation on
 6     the application by TVNC for APTN.
 7  3635                 I will begin by saying that I am
 8     approaching directly as a descendant from the Nehiyaw
 9     or Cree Spirit of Chief Mistawasis and, therefore, with
10     much pride and integrity that I do not represent an
11     imposed systems of governance of the Indian Act of any
12     form and/or organization funded or otherwise by the
13     Government of Canada.
14  3636                 Given the brief amount of time and
15     resources allocated and available for this
16     presentation, with this in mind the presentation will
17     be presented and brought forth in an informative and
18     positive manner.
19  3637                 I'd like to begin by expressing my
20     gratitude for this honour of being here today.  As a
21     young person, I've grown accustomed to listening at
22     length to the elders, the women, the youth and the
23     leadership.
24  3638                 On being invited to participate in
25     this public hearing, I feel it is important for me to


 1     stress how uniquely important this opportunity is to
 2     appear and present an intervention to the CRTC.  As the
 3     results of this hearing could very well signal the
 4     future of the country of Canada and its relationship
 5     with aboriginal people.
 6  3639                 All of my relations have suffered a
 7     long, long time.  For strength and responsibility of my
 8     own emotional survival today, I choose not to dwell on
 9     this.  For myself personally, having been raised as a
10     foster child of aboriginal heritage, I faced many
11     challenges.  The earliest memories I remember,
12     therefore, are not of my family but, rather, are of the
13     medium of television.  The vision of aboriginal people
14     portrayed in this medium in many ways stunted my own
15     growth and identity as an aboriginal.
16  3640                 Today, the future of this vision and
17     many more visions could be enhanced with the
18     implementation of increased aboriginal broadcasting
19     opportunities.  For this vision to become a reality
20     rests in the hands of the people assembled at this
21     hearing.  I don't just mean the Commission; I mean
22     everybody that's here.  And with anything that involves
23     the future, it directly affects the wellbeing of all
24     Canadian youth.  If one was to question their own
25     understanding and interpretation of aboriginal people,


 1     how much of that history would be projected from the
 2     medium of broadcasting and how much from fact and
 3     understanding?
 4  3641                 With the release of Statistics
 5     Canada's population data, it shows clearly that there
 6     is a growing disproportionate population of aboriginal
 7     youth.  It reported in the January 13th release of The
 8     Daily, which is on page 2 and page 6:
 9                            "The Aboriginal population in
10                            1996 was 10 years younger on
11                            average than the general
12                            population.  Over the next two
13                            decades, this will be reflected
14                            in large increases within the
15                            Aboriginal working-age
16                            population.  Almost one-third of
17                            all Aboriginal children under
18                            the age of 15 in Census families
19                            lived in a lone-parent family,
20                            twice the rate within the
21                            general population.  The rate
22                            was even higher in urban areas. 
23                            About 46% of Aboriginal children
24                            under 15 in Census families who
25                            lived in a census metropolitan


 1                            area were in a lone-parent
 2                            family."
 3  3642                 Aboriginal population much younger
 4     than the general population.
 5                            "The average age of the
 6                            aboriginal population in 1996
 7                            was 25.5 years, ten years
 8                            younger than the average of 35.4
 9                            years in the general population. 
10                            Children under 15 accounted for
11                            35% of all aboriginal people,
12                            compared with only 20% of
13                            Canada's total population. 
14                            Children in this age group
15                            accounted for 38% of all
16                            aboriginal people on rural
17                            reserves, the highest share for
18                            any geographical area, compared
19                            with 32% in census metropolitan
20                            areas.
21                            The proportion of young people
22                            aged 15 to 24 was also greater
23                            among the aboriginal population
24                            than in the total population. 
25                            These young people represented


 1                            almost one-fifth (18%) of all
 2                            age groups within the aboriginal
 3                            population, compared with 13% in
 4                            the general population.
 5                            With such concentrations in the
 6                            younger age groups, there were
 7                            relatively fewer aboriginal
 8                            people in older age groups.  For
 9                            example, only 4% of the
10                            aboriginal population was 65 and
11                            over, compared with 12% of the
12                            general population."
13  3643                 For myself, I do not view these
14     statistics as detrimental, more I view them as an
15     opportunity to work within a booming demographic, with
16     the rewards coming from building capacity and creating
17     opportunities for the next and future generations to
18     come.  Having worked, volunteered and participated in
19     workshops at the Dreamspeaker's International
20     Aboriginal Film Festival for a number of years, I know
21     firsthand that there is ample resources and capacity
22     available for aboriginal content to fill the broadcast
23     requirements for a national network.  All we need is a
24     network, the Aboriginal People's Television Network.
25  3644                 As aboriginal youth today discover


 1     that they need not fight for their rights, more they
 2     should know them and even more importantly, they should
 3     live them.  Education of these rights and privileges
 4     through the Aboriginal People's Television Network
 5     presents an opportunity of great importance and
 6     fulfilment of obligation and vision, even within this
 7     room today.  As I have mentioned earlier, this vision
 8     for aboriginal people rests in the hands of the people
 9     assembled at this hearing.
10  3645                 With this it reminds me of a story I
11     heard and adapted and will close with from a prominent
12     U.S. attorney I've been in contact with in regards to
13     residential schools and aboriginal adoptees regarding
14     class action lawsuits.  He is prominent in that he
15     never underestimates or insults anyone's intelligence. 
16     With this winning attitude, he has won restitution in
17     various suits totalling billions of dollars.  I will
18     state this with a big heart and good spirited
19     intentions.
20  3646                 A young warrior, a youth, once upon a
21     great time ago wanted to be respected and heard.  For
22     this he decided to stage a coup upon the wise old
23     chief, an elder.  He figured if he embarrassed the old
24     man in front of everyone he would look good and not
25     have to listen to him.  For this he approached the old


 1     man with a baby eagle in his hands.  He asked the old
 2     man a question:  Is the baby eagle alive or dead?  The
 3     young warrior laughed to himself, for in his thoughts
 4     he knew if the old man said the baby eagle was alive,
 5     he would squish his hands together and drop the baby
 6     eagle to the ground.  If the old man said it was dead,
 7     he would open his hands and raise them to the sky as
 8     the baby eagle flew away.  The wise old chief, he
 9     thought for a moment and remembered when he too was a
10     young warrior, a youth, and with the moistness of a
11     tear licking at the corner of his eyes, a warm smile,
12     pronounced to the young warrior, "The eagle is in your
13     hands, brave, strong man."
14  3647                 Now, I look to everyone that is here
15     today, and I can say the future of renewing and
16     strengthening positive and mutually-beneficially
17     relationships with aboriginal people and Canada is in
18     your hands.  All my relations.
19  3648                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
20     Dreaver.
21  3649                 Mr. Michon, Commissioner Pennefather
22     has questions for you.
23  3650                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
24     Madam Chair.
25  3651                 Thank you for being here this


 1     evening.  Time goes by but it grows more enriching
 2     every moment.
 3  3652                 You've taken quite a bit of time to
 4     review this application and elaborate on the principal
 5     reasons for your support, and you've done so very
 6     eloquently and have repeated those again today.  So, I
 7     would rather ask you a more personal question.  As an
 8     independent producer, what will APTN mean for you?
 9  3653                 MR. MICHON:  Certainly.
10  3654                 As an independent producer, so far I
11     suppose I've been fortunate as a senior producer with
12     Wawatay Television for the past four years.  I did not
13     have to go out and look for that funding.  That funding
14     was available for me.  I've realized now that that
15     funding may not always be there.  I will have to look
16     for those funds myself.  I don't see this as APTN
17     evolves that it will be a panacea for me to look for
18     funding.
19  3655                 It certainly will attribute to me in
20     my endeavours, as I approach other funders, it would
21     probably provide me with the leverage to do so.  So I
22     can approach these funders, the various granting
23     commissions for funding for television and film, and I
24     certainly would see this as a positive means to do
25     that.


 1  3656                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
 2     very much.
 3  3657                 MR. MICHON:  Thank you.
 4  3658                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And Mr. Beach,
 5     Commissioner Cardozo has questions for you.
 6  3659                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks very
 7     much.  Thanks for coming here, Mr. Beach, and making
 8     your presentation, which was full of humour and yet
 9     very serious.
10  3660                 One of the joys of this type of
11     hearing is that one gets to meet actors like yourself
12     and Tina Keeper and Gary Farmer who one sees on the
13     screen and now for us we get to meet you in person.  I
14     have actually one unusual request for a CRTC
15     Commissioner, a wish that was expressed by somebody
16     earlier to me, whose identity I won't reveal, but she
17     would like your home phone number.  I'll be glad to
18     take that and pass it on, and hopefully I'll get a free
19     lunch out of that.
20  3661                 But let me ask you a serious
21     question.  You talk about the example at the Disney
22     studio and I look at APTN and say, if we have APTN,
23     will some other kid down the road still be asked to run
24     like an Indian, jump off a cliff and all that or does
25     having APTN change something at Disney or something


 1     with other producers?
 2  3662                 MR. BEACH:  I'd like to say that
 3     definitely it would change that image that a lot of
 4     people have of us.  I can't say that the way they
 5     romanticize about us running in the woods and stuff
 6     won't ever disappear, but I think it will create a more
 7     positive image to ourselves and to our people.
 8  3663                 I grew up in the City of Winnipeg,
 9     where there's a problem with the gangs and our image
10     growing up on the streets.  If it wasn't for acting,
11     the entertainment industry, I probably wouldn't be here
12     right now because of my upbringing in the same
13     situation, and I was able to hide who I was in these
14     characters.  It's because of a film, "Smoke Signals,"
15     that I was able to share the exact same upbringing as
16     my character and to reveal who I am in my fears and
17     strengths and weaknesses.
18  3664                 I believe with the network, it will
19     provide a source for us to represent ourselves as who
20     we are, but also give a strong voice to a lot of the
21     children and the youth who I speak for across Canada
22     and North America, and to give them a message that
23     there is something out there for us, that we can become
24     something, we can live up to our dreams.  I believe the
25     media, the entertainment is the fastest way to reach


 1     out to these young, not delinquents, but a lot of
 2     youths that have a problem revealing or becoming a
 3     positive influence to themselves.
 4  3665                 That's what I'm hoping for the
 5     network.  I wish when I started that I was able to see
 6     more of our people on the screen.  Jim Compton lived
 7     three doors from when I was a little kid, and me and my
 8     brothers would sit around and kind of spot him, "Hey,
 9     there he is.  He's on TV.  He's a good little guy." 
10     And with his presence around, it really showed that we
11     can overcome our difficulties that we tend to fall
12     into.
13  3666                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So you think
14     this has a potential influence on those kids in
15     Winnipeg where there is a serious situation?
16  3667                 MR. BEACH:  Most definitely, I
17     believe so.
18  3668                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  One of the
19     observations I was making at a previous hearing was --
20     heck, I'll name the show.  It was DaVince's Inquest,
21     which has just been launched on CBC.  In the first show
22     there was a reference to an aboriginal person.  I don't
23     know if you saw the show.  But out of an entirely white
24     cast there was one reference to an aboriginal person,
25     and the person happened to be a prostitute who had just


 1     died of an overdose.
 2  3669                 So, you sort of look at that and you
 3     wonder if that will change.
 4                                                        1830
 5  3670                 I look at that and I think:  Will the
 6     producers of that kind of show change that image there? 
 7     Because they will say:  You are doing the positive
 8     stuff, we have to balance it out to show the negative
 9     stuff, or something like that.
10  3671                 MR. BEACH:  From where I grew up, I
11     see that right from the corner of my dad's house.  And
12     we still live in -- I call it south central of
13     Winnipeg.  And it is like how has a person like myself
14     come out of a dive like that?  And it seems to be
15     overcrowding with the cause of the gangs and all the
16     other sorts taking over the neighbourhood.
17  3672                 And, for me, the entertainment, the
18     media, television has been able to save me from falling
19     over the edge and has provided me enough courage and
20     strength to use what I have gained to give back and to
21     hopefully grab a number of those kids out of there and
22     just to be able to make them see themselves as
23     something else, as opposed to a gang kid next door or
24     -- I got like a ten-year old, nine-year old,
25     eleven-year old brother and sister.  And I still cannot


 1     believe they just walk down the street and there is a
 2     prostitute, there is a gang house.  And to them I am
 3     such a positive influence on them that they do not even
 4     acknowledge that.  Because I am constantly reminding
 5     them and telling people across Canada and North America
 6     to follow your dreams, to follow your goals.  And I
 7     think with the network we can provide that image for
 8     them.  And I believe it is so important and it could
 9     save a lot of lives for a lot of the youths which look
10     to television as a source of their anger, their
11     confusion to hide into.
12  3673                 And if we could provide one show that
13     can give a positive influence, I believe it could just
14     change the direction of a 12-year old to a 13-year old
15     in which way they want to go in education, a family
16     show and just teaching them, just giving them positive
17     influences.
18  3674                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  Thank you very
19     much.  That is very powerful and I appreciate that.
20  3675                 MR. BATSTONE:  Thank you for asking.
21  3676                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
22  3677                 Mr. Drever, I gather that your
23     opinion of this application is it is an eagle with
24     sufficient feathers and we should just let it fly?
25  3678                 MR. DREVER:  Correct, very correct. 


 1     I think that is the only way it can go.  You know, and
 2     I really like the fairness that has been expressed over
 3     the last two days.
 4  3679                 In regards to the earlier
 5     presentation by the CCTA, it reminds me of another
 6     story -- a very quick one -- by the late John Tatusas,
 7     who was very good friends with my grandfather, the late
 8     Joe Drever.
 9  3680                 What he had stated is that a long
10     time ago a tree had fallen in the forest, like Mr.
11     Cardoza had mentioned earlier.  And this Aboriginal
12     person went and sat on that tree, on that log.  And a
13     non-Aboriginal person came up.  And he said:  I notice
14     you are sitting on a really beautiful tree there, do
15     you mind if I sit down, too?  And this Aboriginal
16     person looked at this non-Aboriginal person and said: 
17     Sure, have a seat.  And as time went by, the
18     non-Aboriginal person invited his friends, he invited
19     his friends, he even invited strangers and welcomed
20     them on to this tree until eventually the Aboriginal
21     person sat up to make room until eventually that log
22     was filled and the Aboriginal person was asking to sit
23     back on that log.
24  3681                 When I heard the CCTA present today,
25     that is how I felt, like we were asking to get a little


 1     part of that log, again.  That is what I would like to
 2     close with.  Thanks.
 3  3682                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
 4     Drever and Mr. Michon and Mr. Beach.  And thank you,
 5     again, for staying so late and accommodating us.  But
 6     we are grateful for your participation as no doubt is
 7     the applicant.  Thank you.
 8  3683                 MS SANTERRE:  The next intervention
 9     will be by CanWest Global Communications Corporation.
11  3684                 MR. MAAVARA:  Good evening, Madam
12     Chair and Members of the Commission.  Thank you for the
13     opportunity to appear tonight.  My name is Gary
14     Maavara, and I am director of special projects with
15     CanWest Global Communications Corporation.  With me
16     today is Charlotte Bell, who is the director of
17     regulatory affairs of the Global Television Network,
18     CanWest's Canadian subsidiary.
19  3685                 We are pleased to appear here today,
20     before the Commission in support of this application by
21     Television Northern Canada for a licence to operate the
22     Aboriginal People's Television Network.  This support
23     reflects a long record of corporate support for the
24     Aboriginal community as well as a belief that the APTN
25     service would be good for the broadcasting system.


 1  3686                 Our support for the Aboriginal
 2     community includes a variety of efforts both inside and
 3     outside of broadcasting.  For example, outside of
 4     broadcasting we have helped to fund the Aboriginal
 5     Business Education Program at the University of
 6     Manitoba with a five-year financial commitment.
 7  3687                 In 1993, we established the
 8     Aboriginal People's Internship Award.  It provides a
 9     fully paid four-month internship with Global operations
10     at Toronto or Regina.  Recipients are also provided
11     with reimbursement for transportation and some
12     accommodation expenses.
13  3688                 A jury of two Global employees and
14     one member of the Aboriginal community select the
15     interns.  This year, Burt Crowfoot participated on the
16     jury.  He is the president of the Aboriginal Multimedia
17     Society of Alberta.
18  3689                 We are happy to report that over the
19     term of this program, two interns have gone on from the
20     program to full-time employment with Global, one in
21     Winnipeg and one in Toronto.
22  3690                 MS BELL:  We support this application
23     on its merits because we believe that it reflects a
24     vision for the Canadian system that we share.
25  3691                 The Broadcasting Act directs "that


 1     pregramming that reflects the Aboriginal cultures of
 2     Canada should be provided within the Canadian system as
 3     resources become available for the purpose."
 4  3692                 The act also prescribed a broader,
 5     more important purpose, to "reflect the circumstances
 6     and aspirations of Canadian men, women and children,
 7     including equal rights, the linguistic duality and
 8     multicultural and multiracial nature of Canadian
 9     society and the special place of Aboriginal peoples
10     within that society."
11  3693                 The importance of this mandate, we
12     believe, is not only the reflection of the diversity of
13     Canada's peoples.  The reflection of what makes us all
14     fundamentally the same is also important.
15  3694                 As we pointed out at the Canadian
16     content hearing, we need to reflect on the aspirations,
17     hopes and dreams that we all share, rather than what
18     makes us different.  We believe that APTN will not only
19     help the Aboriginal community see itself, but it will
20     also foster a broader understanding by other Canadians
21     about Aboriginal issues.  Canadians will have the
22     opportunity firsthand to see what the community is all
23     about.
24  3695                 We realize that programs on other
25     services such as CBC have value in reflecting that


 1     community.  However, a branded service, providing a
 2     complete range of programs, will be much more effective
 3     in generating audiences.  It will also provide the
 4     community with an important institution to support
 5     program development and training in technical, creative
 6     and management areas.
 7  3696                 We understand that the headquarters
 8     of the new service might be in Winnipeg.  We applaud
 9     this and observe that this location and the nature of
10     the programming would also provide the Canadian
11     broadcasting system with programming that reflects the
12     geographical diversity of Canadians.
13  3697                 As you consider this application, the
14     commission is also assessing the policy framework for
15     the world of new media.  We all know that the new
16     frontier of borderless, interactive media is on the
17     horizon.  No one can predict when it will arrive.
18     However, we all know that when it does, things will
19     change dramatically.  We understand that we need to
20     start getting ready now so that Canadian stories will
21     continue to be heard in the future.  The expansion of
22     the Canadian system through licensing of new channels
23     is part of that preparation.
24  3698                 Access to additional shelf space will
25     now help us to develop the content infrastructures so


 1     the system is ready when the new media becomes
 2     ubiquitous.
 3  3699                 APTN can be a fundamental part of
 4     that process.  It can serve to establish a core of
 5     activity to preserve the culture that we know and to
 6     help it find a place in the world of new media when
 7     that time comes.
 8  3700                 MR. MAAVARA:  CanWest notes both the
 9     favourable interventions and those against this
10     application.  We recognize that many problems and
11     obstacles stand before the applicants and the
12     commission.  Nevertheless, we ask everyone involved to
13     ask himself or herself when a visionary move has been
14     easy.  CanWest struggled for legitimacy over its first
15     decade, but we prevailed.  In the decade following, we
16     built a broadcasting system on three continents. 
17     Similarly, APTN will succeed, but only if we embrace
18     their vision and look for solutions rather than
19     obstacles.
20  3701                 In sum, CanWest has a long history of
21     support for the Aboriginal community.  Our support for
22     this application is part of that corporate commitment. 
23     However, we also support this application because we
24     believe that it can greatly assist in the depiction of
25     Canadian stories to foster our collective understanding


 1     of who we are as a nation of diverse peoples.
 2  3702                 Thank you for your attention to this
 3     submission and we welcome your questions.
 4  3703                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Bell
 5     and Mr. Maavara.
 6  3704                 With your experience in broadcasting,
 7     is it your belief that, or can you tell us what your
 8     sense is of whether the licensing of this network would
 9     also generate more opportunities for co-production,
10     cooperation, more cross-pollination between the
11     Aboriginal program producers and mainstream
12     broadcasters.
13  3705                 So there is an overlap or an effect
14     that would lead to some -- to an improvement of the
15     depiction of Aboriginal people in mainstream
16     programming?
17  3706                 I mean by that, English language like
18     yours or CTV, to increase and improve the reflection.
19     Do you see ways in which that would become a seed bed
20     for this type of cooperation?
21  3707                 MR. MAAVARA:  I guess the short
22     answer is "yes".  And I think your question goes a
23     little bit to Commissioner Cardoza's question to a
24     number of the participants here today and that is do
25     you think that this will have an impact on the system


 1     as a whole.
 2  3708                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, it goes
 3     beyond an impact on the system on the whole.  If it is
 4     there as a channel, it is there in the system as a
 5     whole.  My question was more pointed.  It was -- well,
 6     I think you understand what I mean.  It is not that --
 7     it would go beyond simply the addition of an empowering
 8     channel for Aboriginal people, but it would have a
 9     ripple effect in the other parts of the system.
10  3709                 MR. MAAVARA:  Again, yes.  It would
11     have an effect because it would create a core of
12     production for that channel.  But it would also have
13     the effect of those people eventually, some of them
14     would move out into the broader community.  The thing
15     --
16  3710                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Meaning the broader
17     broadcasting community?
18  3711                 MR. MAAVARA:  Broader --
19  3712                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  After being
20     nurtured within the Aboriginal.
21  3713                 MR. MAAVARA:  Within the channel and
22     also, you know, at the end of the day what our business
23     is all about is storytelling.  And what this channel is
24     going to add to is the development of our storytelling
25     ability in Canada.


 1  3714                 And as you heard during the Canadian
 2     content hearing, it all starts with someone sitting
 3     down at a typewriter, writing a script.  And this
 4     channel is going to create a lot of those scripts both
 5     for the channel itself, and it is inevitable that a lot
 6     of those scripts are going to find their into other
 7     channels both here in Canada and also abroad and into
 8     other media as well.
 9                                                        1845
10  3715                 We have had some good examples today
11     and yesterday of some of the stories that should be
12     told.
13  3716                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You haven't been
14     involved, I guess, with CanWest all that long, but on
15     this internship program, do you have any comments about
16     your experience as a broadcaster?  To a certain extent
17     it could be one of the roles of the aboriginal channel,
18     which is to be, for the unproved, an internship of some
19     sort, and it could go beyond producing on that channel
20     alone.
21  3717                 MR. MAAVARA:  I think it is going to
22     serve as a catalyst for that, but it is also going
23     to -- you know, there are a lot of very terrifically
24     talented people who are going to produce for that
25     channel and for other channels.  It is really just


 1     another opportunity to develop programming, but
 2     fundamentally it is also an opportunity for the
 3     community to develop programming for itself, the
 4     aboriginal community.
 5  3718                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  What we have heard,
 6     some of it today and some of it during the Canadian
 7     Content hearing, is that, although there are many
 8     talented aboriginal producers or Chinese producers,
 9     there would probably be a lot more if there were more
10     channels that would allow them to develop rather than
11     face the presumed glass walls that one faces as a
12     member of not the mainstream community.  In other
13     words, you say there are a lot of talented producers,
14     directors, and my question is, could there be more if
15     there had been an APTN, and will there be more as a
16     result of being able to nurture and tap all the talent
17     that will then presumably diffuse itself in various
18     parts of the system?  Some will stay, some will go
19     somewhere else.  You may end up with some at CanWest in
20     higher positions than maybe they can reach now.
21  3719                 MR. MAAVARA:  Again, I think there
22     certainly will be a lot of talented people who are
23     added to the system who might not, in other
24     circumstances, have had that opportunity.
25  3720                 I look at the system from the


 1     standpoint of, as the Commission has been rolling out
 2     the system, we seem to have been licensing -- there was
 3     expansion of service; the name of Rhéal Therrien was
 4     mentioned earlier, and he had a terrific role in that. 
 5     But we built a system and we built a system of English
 6     and French, and then we started moving into the
 7     categories 7, 8 and 9, with a lot of the discussion
 8     through the last hearing, but we have kind of built
 9     every one of those categories 1 through 12 with
10     specific channels, and then when you look at the Act
11     the only thing that's left that really needs to be
12     built according to the mandate of the Act is the
13     aboriginal.
14  3721                 So it is time.  We have kind of
15     filled in 1 to 12; we have sports channels, we have
16     news channels, we have drama channels, we have comedy
17     channels, we have lifestyle channels, but it is time
18     now for a general interest channel to serve this
19     community.  It is the only area of the Broadcasting Act
20     that hasn't really been met yet.
21  3722                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
22  3723                 MR. MAAVARA:  I am not saying that
23     there shouldn't be any new channels, of course. 
24     There's lots of room --
25  3724                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, of course not. 


 1     I noticed that in your presentation.  I am still awake.
 2  3725                 Thank you, Ms Bell.  Thank you,
 3     Mr. Maavara.
 4  3726                 We also thank you for staying so late
 5     and not abandoning us or the applicant and making your
 6     presentation.
 7  3727                 Thank you very much, and have a nice
 8     weekend.
 9  3728                 MR. MAAVARA:  Thank you.
10  3729                 MS BELL:  Thank you.
11  3730                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.
12  3731                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
13  3732                 The next presentation will be by
14     Rosemarie Kuptana & Company.
15  3733                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening,
16     Ms Kuptana.
18  3734                 MS KUPTANA:  Good evening,
19     Commissioners.  Thank you, Madam Chair.
20  3735                 I apologize for not having a written
21     statement, but I am nevertheless very pleased to meet
22     with you today.
23  3736                 I guess I should begin by introducing
24     myself.  My name is Rosemarie Kuptana.  The reason that
25     I have an interest in these hearings is because I am


 1     the former president of the Inuit Broadcasting
 2     Corporation, the former president of the Inuit
 3     Tapirisat of Canada and I participated very extensively
 4     in the development of native broadcasting in Canada, in
 5     the development of Television Northern Canada and the
 6     Inuvialuit Communication Society, and in general
 7     broadcasting policy in Canada.  So, by way of
 8     background, that's who I am.
 9  3737                 I feel like the ghost of Christmas
10     past.
11  3738                 These hearings on the licence
12     application for APTN by TVNC sends a powerful and
13     timely message at this critical period in Canada's
14     history.  The TVNC licence application for APTN
15     presents a balanced service in Canada.  It would
16     present a balanced service in Canada.
17  3739                 The licence must be mandatory,
18     mandatory, mandatory, on basic carriage.  Let me
19     explain why.
20  3740                 There are over one million First
21     Nations, Métis and Inuit in Canada.  As aboriginal
22     peoples, we are the First Peoples of this country.  We
23     are the distinct peoples in this country.  We have 53
24     distinct aboriginal languages, we have distinct
25     cultures, we have distinct traditions, values, laws,


 1     geography and history.
 2  3741                 These are some of the fundamental
 3     characteristics that define who we are as a people, and
 4     yet there is little to reflect aboriginal peoples in
 5     mainstream society and in particular in mainstream
 6     media.
 7  3742                 The past 30 years have been a
 8     watershed for the development and increasing
 9     recognition of aboriginal and treaty rights in Canada. 
10     Unfortunately, that recognition has most often been the
11     result of confrontation.  For instance, aboriginal
12     peoples were recognized in the highest law of the
13     country, the Canadian Constitution Act, 1982, in 1982. 
14     As aboriginal peoples, we have continued to seek that
15     recognition in the area of broadcasting and
16     telecommunications.
17  3743                 Our aboriginal communications
18     societies are still young compared to this country and
19     considering our history with Canada, but they proved to
20     our elders that their ideas work; the technology may be
21     new but the message is still very old, spoken down to
22     us from our elders.  We have produced programs that
23     strengthen and revitalize our cultures, our languages,
24     our history.  They tell us who we are and to be proud
25     of where we are going as a people.


 1  3744                 But it has not always been a happy
 2     journey.  The generational breakdown between young and
 3     old was made worse by the arrival of television and
 4     radio.  I find it ironic that those same technologies
 5     are pulling us back together.  Just let me give you a
 6     few examples of that.
 7  3745                 When I was involved with the Inuit
 8     Broadcasting Corporation, for instance, we created
 9     Inuit children's television programming, and one of the
10     characters that we had, his name was Super Shamou. 
11     This character was a shaman, he was potbellied,
12     balding, middle-aged Inuk superhero who would talk
13     about issues that are of concern to young people and he
14     would portray and convey Inuit values and traditions,
15     and he was very popular.  He wore red underwears and
16     gumboots.
17  3746                 Another example that brought the
18     young people and the old people together was at the
19     height of the Ethiopian famine.  For the very first
20     time Inuit saw images of people that were starving in a
21     far away country, and they remembered the difficult
22     times that they experienced when an IBC crew went over
23     to Ethiopia and brought back images and told the
24     stories of how famine and war were ravaging that
25     country.  As a result of that, the Inuit sponsored and


 1     gave more than any other Canadian per capita because it
 2     was us telling those stories, using our own people in
 3     the context of our own languages.
 4  3747                 Another great memory that I have of
 5     my days at the Inuit Broadcasting Corporation was when
 6     Paul Apak and a crew travelled from Igloolik up to
 7     Northern Greenland on what was called the Qitdlarssuaq
 8     Expedition.  Now, Qitdlarssuaq was a shaman who had a
 9     shady past; he travelled from Baffin Island up to
10     Greenland in 1853 and he took a group of 20 followers
11     with him.  There he found a people who had forgotten
12     their culture, who were sick, and he imparted knowledge
13     and tradition and the Inuit ways to Greenland again. 
14     One of them was the use of the kayak, and the kayak is
15     now one of the great symbols of North Greenland.
16  3748                 Those are some of the stories that we
17     told on the Inuit Broadcasting Corporation.
18  3749                 So, as you can well see, I am very
19     supportive of APTN's application, or TVNC's application
20     for APTN to be licensed.
21  3750                 APTN is not a specialty service for
22     Indians and Eskimos.  What APTN would represent is a
23     basic, first level of service for the First Peoples of
24     this country, so that aboriginal peoples in this
25     country can learn and hear what other Canadians enjoy


 1     in French and English.
 2  3751                 You see, as far as I am concerned,
 3     Canada is made up of three founding nations:  first,
 4     the aboriginal peoples of this country, and the English
 5     and French.  And, as such, it should be afforded --
 6     APTN should be granted a licence.
 7                                                        1900
 8  3752                 Some not so pleasant memories from my
 9     days at the Inuit Broadcasting Corporation:  I remember
10     when we had to go before the CBC and beg, borrow, and
11     plead with the CBC super bosses for fair access to
12     distribute our programming.
13  3753                 Well, in the beginning it didn't do
14     so good.  That pleading and begging and what not didn't
15     really help us.  I remember being bumped or pre-empted
16     for programming like Hockey Night in Canada.
17  3754                 You see, nature made us the land of
18     the midnight sun; CBC made us the land of midnight
19     television.
20  3755                 I have also noticed that CBC has sent
21     a written submission stating that the approval of APTN
22     would set a precedent, and the CRTC would have an
23     influx of applications; and that the CRTC has not
24     explored this whole area well enough and that they
25     should maybe hold off on granting APTN's licence


 1     application.
 2  3756                 As far as I am concerned, that is not
 3     a valid argument.
 4  3757                 What is it based on?  Is it based
 5     upon fear?  Is it scaremongering?  And why aren't they
 6     here to represent their views if they were so concerned
 7     about APTN?
 8  3758                 I also find it very disconcerting
 9     that the cable companies are so adversely and adamantly
10     opposed to APTN's application as it stands.  They say
11     they are not, but they are.
12  3759                 They are saying that they have no
13     room on their network.  Well, I could do without the
14     Shopping Network.  I could do without some of the
15     American programming.  I could even do without the TV
16     Listing as part of the basic service.
17  3760                 When the cable companies were here
18     today, they were talking about giving the viewers a
19     choice.  I guess aboriginal peoples are not considered
20     a part of that viewership as far as the cable companies
21     are concerned.
22  3761                 As a Canadian, I could easily go
23     without one or more of those services.
24  3762                 Again, I say:  So what's the barrier
25     here to making room for aboriginal peoples?  Is it


 1     institutionalized racism?  Is it a loss of profit that
 2     they are worried about?
 3  3763                 Madam Chair, as aboriginal peoples,
 4     we have shared our country.  We have given, we have
 5     given and we have given.  All we are seeking is
 6     equality and a reflection of aboriginal peoples as part
 7     of Canadian society.
 8  3764                 I am not saying that English and
 9     French programming is not good.  What I am saying is we
10     wish to co-exist with other Canadians, not to be
11     relegated to the fringes of society.
12  3765                 As a result of those comments, I
13     would see APTN as being a very positive force in
14     Canada.  It is needed to serve aboriginal peoples, to
15     promote and encourage the development of aboriginal
16     languages and cultures, so that they have news,
17     information, entertainment, and other types of
18     programming in the context of their own languages.
19  3766                 I would see APTN as a service that
20     would reflect and enhance the social, political,
21     economic and cultural life of aboriginal peoples in
22     this country.  I think that APTN would do a lot to
23     create greater understanding and tolerance for all
24     Canadians.
25  3767                 Madam Chair and Commissioners, I


 1     would urge you to do the right thing by providing
 2     aboriginal peoples with a choice to reflect ourselves
 3     in mainstream media.
 4  3768                 Thank you very much.
 5  3769                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms
 6     Kuptana.
 7  3770                 Commissioner Cardozo.
 8  3771                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you,
 9     Madam Chair.  And thank you, Ms Kuptana.
10  3772                 Having watched you for a number of
11     years in the various roles you have described, I
12     appreciate particularly you bringing us the benefit of
13     your experience.
14  3773                 You talked about aboriginal peoples
15     being the first peoples here and being the first of the
16     founding peoples.  I thought it was ironic, as another
17     intervenor was noting, that if you were to become APTN,
18     APTN would be the new kid on the block in the
19     broadcasting scene rather than being the first kid on
20     the block.
21  3774                 Another point I thought was
22     interesting was the matter of choice that you
23     mentioned.  The cable companies have argued that they
24     want to give consumers the choice whether they would
25     have this or not.


 1  3775                 The fact is, as we look at this
 2     application, if we don't license it in the manner that
 3     it is put forward -- i.e., with mandatory carriage --
 4     it won't be.  In which case, consumers will never have
 5     that choice as to whether they would want to receive
 6     APTN or not.
 7  3776                 Do you agree with that?
 8  3777                 MS KUPTANA:  I don't think that
 9     consumers of broadcasting have a choice anyway.  I know
10     that from my own experience.  I subscribe to a cable
11     company for television services, and I never ask for
12     the Sports Network or the Shopping Network, or for the
13     TV Listings.  But I still get them.
14  3778                 I think that if given half the
15     chance, consumers would welcome the APTN programming --
16     and I will tell you why.
17  3779                 The way we are depicted in mainstream
18     media -- and I am talking about aboriginal peoples, the
19     first peoples of Canada -- it is only negative stories
20     that you see:  whether it is some kind of crisis that
21     we have created, or that has been created by the Crown
22     and aboriginal peoples; whether it is the drunk
23     aboriginal person in the gutter; drugs; and so on.
24  3780                 As societies, we are much more than
25     that.


 1  3781                 How many people in this country would
 2     know that from my own area we have a chief pilot, the
 3     head of an Australian airline company?  He is the
 4     captain of a 747.
 5  3782                 How many people in this country know
 6     that one of the first aboriginal doctors came from my
 7     home community, and he is one of the top surgeons in
 8     this country?
 9  3783                 We don't hear about those people in
10     mainstream society.  What we hear are the negative
11     stories.
12  3784                 I think that as aboriginal peoples,
13     we no longer wish to be used as negative examples as
14     part of Canadian society any more, because we are much
15     more than that.
16  3785                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I would like
17     to ask you about the population of Inuit.  My
18     understanding is that the number is around 40,000.
19  3786                 MS KUPTANA:  It is between 40,000 and
20     50,000.
21  3787                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With about
22     half in the north and half in the rest of the country?
23  3788                 MS KUPTANA:  I would say it is
24     probably more than half in the north.
25  3789                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  So the people


 1     in the north would have access to TVNC.
 2  3790                 MS KUPTANA:  They would have access
 3     to TVNC.  But if APTN was not given a mandatory
 4     licence, I don't think that aboriginal peoples in
 5     Canada would have access to viewing their own
 6     programming.
 7  3791                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  There is a
 8     question of whether it could survive, given the
 9     cutbacks it has had.
10  3792                 I am thinking of people in the south,
11     of Inuit in the south who don't currently have access
12     to TVNC.  Their only hope of seeing the kind of
13     programming you are talking about is to have APTN
14     licensed.
15  3793                 MS KUPTANA:  Yes.
16  3794                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  That covers my
17     questions.  Thank you very much.
18  3795                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
19     much, Ms Kuptana.  We wish to thank you, like we did
20     the other intervenors, for staying with us so late.
21  3796                 And we thank you for your
22     participation.
23  3797                 MS KUPTANA:  Thank you.
24  3798                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary,
25     please.


 1  3799                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 2  3800                 I would like now to invite Alexander
 3     Crawley on behalf of the Canadian Conference of the
 4     Arts/Conférence canadienne des Arts, and also on behalf
 5     of the Canadian Screen Training Centre/Réseau
 6     d'ateliers cinématographiques canadiens.
 7  3801                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening, Mr.
 8     Crawley.  You are wearing two hats.
 9  3802                 MR. CRAWLEY:  A "two for one" deal
10     here.  And probably you won't have to ask me any
11     questions and we can move right along.
12  3803                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Be careful.  I will
13     assign two Commissioners.
15  3804                 MR. CRAWLEY:  My notes optimistically
16     said "Good afternoon".  But good evening, and thank you
17     for this opportunity to enter the record of this
18     proceeding in support of the application before you.
19  3805                 I will speak on behalf of the
20     Canadian Conference of the Arts in broad terms, and
21     will add some short remarks in the context of training
22     and professional development on behalf of the Canadian
23     Screen Training Centre.
24  3806                 The CCA, Canadian Conference of the
25     Arts, has a long and honourable history for advocacy


 1     for cultural development in Canada, beginning over 50
 2     years ago when a group of Canadian artists formed the
 3     organization in order to propel the successive
 4     governments to instigate appropriate policies for the
 5     development of Canadian culture and the arts in the
 6     public interest.
 7  3807                 We have consistently identified
 8     opportunities for the Federal Government and its
 9     various agencies to act in support of the production
10     and dissemination of Canadian cultural materials.  The
11     application before you is a case in point.
12  3808                 As the applicant has revealed, the
13     level of accomplishment by First Nations individuals in
14     the field of broadcasting is truly remarkable.  The
15     list of successful writers, performers, composers,
16     designers, producers of aboriginal origin is long, and
17     many of the most talented have registered their support
18     for this initiative.
19  3809                 We are confident that the Commission
20     will take this into account in considering the human
21     resources available to the new network as it sets out
22     to communicate to a wider sphere of Canadians in their
23     homes.
24  3810                 Indeed, the list of creators and
25     producers of native origin that would stand on its own


 1     without any reference to their ethnicity is an
 2     impressive group to be supporting any initiative to
 3     come before the Commission.  The strength of the
 4     creative community from amongst aboriginal peoples is,
 5     in a positive sense, disproportionate to the overall
 6     demographic -- a fact which speaks well for the
 7     potential of the APTN.
 8  3811                 We do understand that the prospect of
 9     mandatory carriage at a set price is controversial. 
10     However, we also remember that even at the beginning of
11     TVNC, and before that, there was a recognition on the
12     part of the Federal Government that the provision of
13     broadcast technology was only a first step, and that
14     adequate resources for the production of content
15     remained as a future objective.
16  3812                 With this application for the
17     establishment of the APTN, we believe, as others have
18     said in here today, the future is here and the time to
19     act is now.
20  3813                 With the brave and appropriate
21     invocation of the principle of mandatory carriage in
22     your recent decision with regard to the French language
23     service, we dare to hope that the Commission has
24     recognized that the ensuing controversy is bearable and
25     secondary to the positive effects on the broadcasting


 1     system of granting the APTN licence as requested.
 2  3814                 We believe that Canadian subscribers
 3     to broadcast distribution undertakings will benefit
 4     significantly from access to the artistic expression
 5     and the journalistic point of view of First Nations
 6     professionals as broadcast over the new network.
 7  3815                 Such access will also have a salutary
 8     effect on social cohesion in Canada -- an issue which
 9     has been raised by the Federal Government as we look
10     toward the millennium, amidst relentless pressure to
11     adapt to economic globalization with its attendant
12     potential for dislocation of both jobs and social
13     values.
14                                                        1915
15  3816                 The confidence and professionalism 
16     of this application speaks for itself and we urge the
17     Commission to grant the licence.
18  3817                 Speaking for the Canadian Screen
19     Training Centre, we note the significant allocation of
20     resources toward training and professional development
21     in the business plan of the APTN.  While the Canadian
22     Screen Training Centre enjoys the support of many of
23     your well-established licensees, we must congratulate
24     and single out the applicant for their forward looking
25     policies in regard to human resource development -- an


 1     annual allocation of a quarter of a million dollars
 2     toward the training and professional development of the
 3     myriad individuals involved in the production,
 4     marketing and distribution of quality programming --
 5     which reflects the culture and values of the aboriginal
 6     community.  It represents a wise and valuable
 7     investment in the future of the network.
 8  3818                 At the same time, recognizing the
 9     dynamic growth of the sector at large and the
10     meaningful contribution of First Nations artists and
11     producers to this point, this policy will serve to
12     strengthen the system as a whole.
13  3819                 The Canadian Conference of the Arts
14     and the Canadian Screen Training Centre each support
15     the application by TVNC for the licensing of the
16     Aboriginal Peoples Television Network on the terms
17     requested in the application.  Thank you.
18  3820                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two commissioners
19     will ask you questions.  First, Commissioner
20     Pennefather ...
21  3821                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
22     I am speaking to Alexander Crawley, member of the Board
23     of Directors of the CCA at the moment.
24  3822                 Thank you for your comments and for
25     being with us this evening.


 1  3823                 On your written submission I had one
 2     question, just for clarification, recognizing of course
 3     the formal endorsement of the application.
 4  3824                 You refer to the partnerships that
 5     TVNC has formed beyond the aboriginal community, which
 6     you say also speak volumes about the readiness of TVNC
 7     to support Canada's cultural objectives by expanding
 8     into the south.  That is an interesting comment and I
 9     wonder if you could elaborate on it.
10  3825                 MR. CRAWLEY:  I would not presume to
11     outline any specifics of any partnerships, but I know
12     from speaking to the applicant and some of the
13     representatives that certainly there is a sophisticated
14     understanding of how the system works.
15  3826                 Some previous intervenors today
16     talked about second windows.  You have some major
17     broadcasting interests here who are in support, and I
18     am sure it is not strictly from altruism.  There is a
19     natural feeding that happens, a sort of symbiosis
20     develops when someone has a successful licence and
21     makes it work.
22  3827                 I know this is part of their plan. 
23     We were speaking in general terms in the written brief,
24     but I know that it is the intention of the applicant to
25     form those kinds of partnerships.  First window might


 1     be on APTN and it would show up somewhere else, or vice
 2     versa.  In all of those things there is a kind of
 3     coming together of resources.
 4  3828                 We were just really referring in
 5     general terms to the need for partnerships, but I think
 6     there is a recognition, again, from this applicant that
 7     they are prepared to form those partnerships, and that
 8     there are others in the system who are prepared to
 9     partner with them.  It is a positive indication.
10  3829                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
11     That is clear.  That brings me to get your comments.
12  3830                 This is one way in which the presence
13     of aboriginal programming on the current Canadian
14     system would hopefully improve.
15  3831                 I was going to ask for your comments
16     on whether you felt, in fact, that there was any risk
17     that an approval of an aboriginal television service
18     would change the responsibility of other television
19     services in terms of their reflecting the aboriginal
20     peoples and aboriginal concerns of this country.
21  3832                 MR. CRAWLEY:  I would think that, to
22     be fair, there is in fact an improvement.  I know that
23     things move slowly and, when you have been waiting a
24     long time, it doesn't seem like there is.  But I would
25     say, from my experience as a non-aboriginal Canadian,


 1     having experienced some travel in the north and having
 2     some aboriginal friends, that I have seen an
 3     improvement in my lifetime in the depiction of those
 4     communities and those cultural values.
 5  3833                 I think it is clear that it would
 6     take a great leap forward if there were a mainstream
 7     full-time service.  I suppose there might be some
 8     tendency on the part of some broadcasters to say: 
 9     "Okay, we don't need to do that any more", as I think
10     the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting suggested, or
11     somebody suggested to you this afternoon.  The
12     Commission wouldn't let them back away from their
13     responsibilities in that sense, we would expect.
14  3834                 But as with any creative endeavour,
15     when there is a critical mass the quality goes up. 
16     When there is a critical mass of programming that is
17     being called for and created, as CanWest Global's Mr.
18     Maavara said, every project that is pitched by an
19     individual producer doesn't always land where it is
20     originally pitched to, but there is a knowledge that
21     has increased and a competence that has increased from
22     one project to the next, through the partnerships and
23     also through just simply the fact that if you have one
24     signal and so many resources that you can fill your
25     signal with, if there is a good property that is


 1     developed and you don't have a place for it, someone
 2     else is going to pick it up.
 3  3835                 So I think there would be a positive
 4     reflection on the productivity of the First Nations
 5     communities.  As more people get better at making
 6     programs, their programs are going to show up elsewhere
 7     in the Canadian system and elsewhere in the world.
 8  3836                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
 9     I hear you actually getting into the whole area of
10     development and training, so I will stop here.
11  3837                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. 
12     Commissioner Cardozo ...
13  3838                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  I am the
14     second Commissioner assigned to you.
15  3839                 I will be speaking to Sandy Crawley
16     of the Canadian Screen Training Centre.  We knew you
17     were one and the same.
18  3840                 I appreciate hearing from different
19     organizations and different perspectives.  I do want to
20     note, though, that when you say we made a brave
21     decision with TVA and we should be similarly brave
22     here, I am reminded of the British program "Yes,
23     Minister", where the deputy minister was explaining to
24     one of his colleagues that the best way to talk the
25     minister out of a project was to say that would be a


 1     very brave and courageous thing to do.  But I take it
 2     that is not what you are trying to do.
 3  3841                 It's late.
 4  3842                 Let me ask you about training.  Do
 5     you see your centre assisting in the training of the
 6     larger number of aboriginal technical people, actors as
 7     well as technicians, that would be needed for APTN?
 8  3843                 MR. CRAWLEY:  We are sort of a
 9     virtual organization.  I am not sure that the word
10     "centre" really belongs in the organization.  I am new
11     there, but --
12  3844                 We try to assist the entire system in
13     meeting its human resource needs.  We like to train
14     where we perceive there is a need, and we develop
15     proposals.  We are a not-for-profit organization, so we
16     always make partners.  Certainly we would be happy to
17     make partners with APTN or TVNC to help them meet their
18     training needs.  But they may very well be able to
19     manage that on their own.  So there is no guarantee
20     that we would be taking a direct part in that training.
21  3845                 However, we have already benefited.
22     Some of the people who are working with TVNC have
23     worked with the centre over the years, at the Institute
24     of Film and Television here in Ottawa.
25  3846                 Similarly to the way we were talking


 1     about the way the system feeding itself, the training
 2     and professional development of the community that is
 3     engaged in those activities in this country tends to
 4     cross-pollinate.  People go from one organization to
 5     another.  If they have a talent for training in a
 6     particular skill, then they make themselves available
 7     wherever that is needed.  That is the way we operate. 
 8     Those are the principles.
 9  3847                 So certainly we would be happy to
10     partner with the applicant --
11  3848                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  But that is
12     not the reason you are here.
13  3849                 MR. CRAWLEY:  No.
14  3850                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  With regard to
15     the mandatory coverage, you have said that the moment
16     is now and be brave, and so forth.  Are you suggesting
17     that we do give APTN mandatory coverage?
18  3851                 MR. CRAWLEY:  Yes.  Both of the
19     organizations that I am representing here today are
20     suggesting that the terms that are being put forward to
21     you are the appropriate ones and that you don't need to
22     adjust them.
23  3852                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  All right. 
24     Thank you very much.
25  3853                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will give you 15


 1     seconds to change hats.  Commissioner Pennefather has
 2     another question.
 3  3854                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
 4  3855                 Commissioner Cardozo did ask you to
 5     respond for both organizations and I just wanted, for
 6     the record, to ask you:  Does the Canadian Conference
 7     of the Arts also agree to mandatory carriage?
 8  3856                 MR. CRAWLEY:  We do.
 9  3857                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you.
10  3858                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr.
11     Crawley.  We are grateful that you were able to keep
12     your two selves together until such a late hour.
13  3859                 Madam Secretary ...
14  3860                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  3861                 The next intervention will be by WETV
16     Development Corporation.
18  3862                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good evening, Ms
19     Rankin and Mr. Nostbakken.
20  3863                 MR. NOSTBAKKEN:  Thank you very much,
21     Commissioners.  I am David Nostbakken, President and
22     CEO of WETV.  This is Linda Rankin, as you know, who is
23     our Executive Vice-President and General Manager.
24  3864                 WETV is a Canadian-based global
25     access television service currently distributing


 1     programming to 30 countries through 38 broadcast
 2     partners around the world.
 3  3865                 WETV carries programming provided to
 4     it by a number of international partners on themes,
 5     mostly, of sustainable development, and from the
 6     international independent producer community we acquire
 7     programming which gives voice to the great numbers of
 8     cultures not heard or seen in positive ways on
 9     television generally.
10  3866                 TVNC is one of our broadcast
11     partners.
12  3867                 Some of you also might know that I
13     was one of the founders and the founding chairman of
14     Vision Television, and was the applicant before the
15     CRTC for the licensing of Vision Television.  Linda
16     Rankin was the principal behind the licensing and was
17     founding president of Women's Television Network, WTN.
18  3868                 I am hoping that we can add, if only
19     a small slice, something that has not already been said
20     at this late date.
21  3869                 We would like to touch on two basic
22     questions.  Should APTN be licensed?  Should it be a
23     mandatory service?
24  3870                 I will say a few words about the
25     first question and Linda will talk about the second.


 1  3871                 We would like to expect that it is a
 2     given that this service should be licensed, and that
 3     the only determination is whether or not it is a
 4     mandatory carriage service.  Recognizing that nothing
 5     can be taken for granted, and before addressing the
 6     issue of mandatory carriage, the following are some of
 7     the reasons why we see it essential that APTN be
 8     licensed.
 9  3872                 First, while others elsewhere review
10     supportive clauses to the applicant in the Broadcasting
11     Act, we will focus on one clause.  Our Broadcasting Act
12     requires that we "provide a reasonable opportunity for
13     the public to be exposed to the expression and
14     different viewpoints on matters of public concern".
15  3873                 It is fair to say that aboriginal
16     viewpoints, particularly those expressed by our native
17     people themselves, are not adequately represented in
18     existing broadcast or specialty service undertakings. 
19     This I say even though I am proud of the work that
20     Vision has done in carrying a lot of programming.
21  3874                 Aboriginal programming should not
22     need an appointment for viewing.  When we were seeking
23     Vision's licence it was clear that occasional religious
24     programming, sprinkled throughout other more general
25     broadcast services, was not as strong a message as a


 1     network licensed and dedicated to reflect the diversity
 2     of Canadian religious viewpoints.
 3  3875                 To put it another way, as Marshall
 4     McLuhan has, "the medium is the message".  In other
 5     words, a full Canadian aboriginal service, always there
 6     as a full choice -- as we seek programs on our remote
 7     controls -- is a statement in itself.  It is a
 8     statement that the aboriginal voice is significant,
 9     varied and diverse in its own right, unlike the often
10     stereotyped representation of native concerns through
11     other broadcast undertakings.
12                                                        1930
13  3876                 Secondly, although the notion of
14     "public concern" seems to beg for definition, there are
15     certain aspects of our cultural makeup which common
16     sense would dictate are in the public interest.  Again,
17     in seeking a licence for Vision, our position was that
18     religion or faith is evidently a matter of public
19     concern.  The service was licensed as a basic carriage
20     service, and although the applicant did not ask for
21     mandatory carriage, the Commission stated that cable
22     systems would have to have a good reason not to carry
23     it.
24  3877                 Aboriginal peoples, their concerns,
25     celebrations, progress, breakthroughs, cultural


 1     celebration, if this is not a matter of public concern,
 2     then the expression "public concern" has little or no
 3     meaning.  The applicant itself states:
 4                            "Aboriginal people deserve more
 5                            than token appearance on
 6                            postcards and travel posters. 
 7                            As people, we can no longer be
 8                            marginalized as a caricature of
 9                            a bygone romantic era."
10  3878                 The Canadian track record with
11     respect to its own aboriginal peoples has been spotty
12     at best.  One of the issues that continues to visit us
13     is one of territoriality and land rights.  In our
14     electronic age, we should provide the necessary
15     mechanism for ownership in a full, national space to
16     express aboriginal viewpoints in a full, fair and
17     balanced fashion.
18  3879                 "Our home and native land" we sing in
19     our national anthem.  Our broadcast presence needs to
20     include the whole of our cultural selves.  It is a
21     matter of public concern.
22  3880                 Third, this will be a truly Canadian
23     service, with at least 90 per cent of its programming
24     of Canadian origin, from those who are the original
25     Canadians.


 1  3881                 Fourth, the not-for-profit status of
 2     the network is in its favour, indicating the purpose is
 3     social and cultural self-expression and a voice.  This
 4     allows it to allocate more revenues to programming and
 5     to focus on other key factors besides strictly
 6     commercial interests.
 7  3882                 Fifth and finally, there is an
 8     increased interest internationally on the importance of
 9     cultural self-expression.  This is a matter of
10     particular interest to WETV.  An important
11     international intergovernmental conference was held in
12     Stockholm, Sweden in March of this year hosted by
13     UNESCO and well attended by a Canadian delegation,
14     including the Minister of Canadian Heritage. This same
15     Minister hosted a meeting of 20 cultural ministers from
16     around the world in the interest of exploring on a
17     global scale how we can ensure better sharing of the
18     diverse cultural perspectives that is now being shared
19     through a dominated universe.  Even the World Bank in
20     October of this year hosted an international conference
21     on how it should get behind ensuring that cultural
22     voices are heard and empowered.
23  3883                 As Canadians, through our regulatory
24     history and our Broadcasting Act, we have a kind of
25     wired-in philosophy on the importance of a reflection


 1     of our own diversity.  This Canadian viewpoint and
 2     history is well respected around the world.  A new
 3     badge of commitment to reflecting our own domestic
 4     diversity would include an aboriginal service.  Its
 5     absence is in fact noticeable.
 6  3884                 As we build WETV, it is evident in
 7     all the world that television is our most powerful
 8     cultural vehicle.  Its power is to legitimize what it
 9     carries and de-legitimize what it does not.  If you're
10     not on television, you don't matter.  Domestically and
11     globally it makes sense in Canada to have an operating
12     and legitimized aboriginal service, APTN.
13  3885                 MS RANKIN:  On the question of
14     mandatory carriage, the TVA decision identified the
15     importance of French language programming as a
16     mandatory part of the Canadian broadcasting universe. 
17     Canada's two official languages are evidently in the
18     public interest in broadcasting terms.
19  3886                 Native voices pre-date both French
20     and English.  As deeply rooted as our dual language
21     status as a nation, a commitment to our aboriginal base
22     and the preservation of its cultural distinctiveness
23     and variety is a part of who we are.  An aboriginal
24     network of high quality programming to entertain and to
25     educate, as outlined in their application, can be seen


 1     as a special case for historical reasons alone, aside
 2     from current social and cultural reasons, and out of a
 3     respect for the need to empower and preserve this
 4     systemic cultural heritage.
 5  3887                 When an immigrant to this country
 6     applies for Canadian citizenship, one of the questions
 7     posed in the exam on Canadian heritage information is: 
 8     Who are the three founding aboriginal nations?  The
 9     answer is, in case you didn't know, the First Nations,
10     the Inuit and the Métis.  If these are considered as
11     founding nations of Canada, then it is a given that
12     they should have their place on Canadian television
13     screens, as do the other founding nations with the same
14     mandatory carriage arrangements.
15  3888                 What is in the public interest cannot
16     be defined or driven by market alone, as important as
17     this is.  Else, why a CRTC?  An aboriginal network that
18     serves our public interest and meets 21st century
19     dynamic audience and market demands is ideal.  WETV
20     intends to provide a window on the world for APTN
21     programming, ensuring that it reaches the broadest
22     audiences possible beyond the borders of Canada.
23  3889                 A criticism of the service is that
24     the only reason the applicant is seeking mandatory
25     carriage is to support the financing requirements of


 1     its business plan.  However, from experience, we would
 2     suggest it should be seen as an argument in favour of
 3     the applicant's request.
 4  3890                 APTN has created a good business
 5     plan.  They seek only 15 cents per subscriber per month
 6     over the seven-year plan.  They have a commitment to 90
 7     per cent of programming being distinctly Canadian,
 8     accept being carried "North of 60", along with Vision
 9     TV and WETV, need to develop new talent, new
10     programming and new cultural excitement in the public
11     interest and to garner audiences.  Mandatory carriage
12     serves the dual purpose of ensuring the public interest
13     on the one hand, and on the other that the network does
14     not fail for lack of resources in start-up; that young
15     aboriginal talent is indeed empowered; and that
16     Canadian viewers are touched by quality programming
17     reflecting this important part of our heritage.
18  3891                 On the verge of the 21st century,
19     television is the most powerful medium of communicating
20     to local, regional, national and global audiences --
21     messages of how to live in harmony within diverse
22     societies.  Canada, once again, will be leaders in
23     managing this resource for the good of its entire
24     social mosaic, as well as making an important
25     contribution to the world.  We urge you to give it all


 1     the support possible in getting starting.  The market
 2     will follow, embrace it and sustain it.
 3  3892                 Thank you.
 4  3893                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Miss
 5     Rankin, Mr. Nostbakken.
 6  3894                 Commissioner Pennefather.
 7  3895                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you,
 8     Madam Chair.
 9  3896                 Good evening to both of you.
10  3897                 MS RANKIN:  Good evening.
11  3898                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  And thank
12     you for being with us.  And thank you for bringing,
13     too, the comments of WETV and the international
14     component to this discussion.
15  3899                 First a clarification.  In your
16     written intervention you refer to, in your second
17     paragraph:
18                            "It is long overdue that there
19                            be a specialty service dedicated
20                            to our northern and aboriginal
21                            perspectives."
22  3900                 I assume from this presentation, when
23     you refer to this proposal as a network, that you
24     understand that it wasn't an application for a
25     specialty service?


 1  3901                 MS RANKIN:  Yes, we do.  Perhaps a
 2     special service.
 3  3902                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  All right,
 4     fine.  I assume you don't mean in the sense that the
 5     CCTA was presenting it in terms of special and relative
 6     to others?
 7  3903                 MS RANKIN:  Never in the sense of
 8     what the CCTA was presenting.
 9  3904                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 
10     It's getting late.
11  3905                 In fact, with your international
12     experience, how would you situate this application?  If
13     I may, you have commented on Canada's leadership in
14     that regard.  You've also said in your written remarks:
15                            "We believe that aboriginal
16                            programming should be seen not
17                            only within Canada but outside
18                            our own borders."
19  3906                 Thirdly, you mentioned today that you
20     will facilitate that by providing a window on the world
21     for APTN programming.
22  3907                 On the latter point, I'd like some
23     specifics on how that will happen.  So, to go back, why
24     is this important in terms of, as you say in your last
25     paragraph:


 1                            "Canada once again will be
 2                            leaders in managing this
 3                            resource for the good of its
 4                            entire social mosaic as well as
 5                            making an important contribution
 6                            to the world."
 7  3908                 Can you elaborate on that and then
 8     tell us about your arrangement for international
 9     exposure of APTN programming?
10  3909                 MR. NOSTBAKKEN:  First of all, our
11     assumption is that the programming is going to be very
12     good programming, and edifying, entertaining as can be
13     expected and, therefore, worthy of watching,
14     interesting to be watched and garnering audiences, not
15     just in this country but in other countries.
16  3910                 If it's in Canada's interests to be
17     seen in the rest of the world as part of our sense of
18     who we are as Canadians, it surely should include a
19     full menu of aboriginal programming.
20  3911                 We have found through our work in
21     many other countries, including Third World countries,
22     southern hemisphere countries, that there's a real
23     appetite for this kind of programming and that, indeed,
24     many of the cultures of these countries feel
25     marginalized and underrepresented because of a western


 1     dominance or an American dominance, and the propensity
 2     of their broadcasters to carry cheap programming that
 3     are easily acquired of a fairly lowest common
 4     denominator entertainment value.  So, there is an
 5     appetite out there for this kind of programming.
 6  3912                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  That's an
 7     interesting comment because some intervenors have
 8     referred, for various reasons, to aboriginal
 9     programming and to this proposal specifically as
10     fulfilling a niche requirement or a particular
11     component of our society and, therefore, as we know and
12     you know from your experience, defining that in terms
13     of a very limited audience.
14  3913                 This would appear to be just the
15     opposite from what you're saying.
16  3914                 MR. NOSTBAKKEN:  I think it's the
17     height of arrogance to suggest that only certain white
18     anglosaxon Canadian or American programming has
19     universal appeal.  There's no reason to not expect that
20     talented people can produce high-quality programming
21     that has universal appeal.
22  3915                 That's not just true of the Canadian
23     aboriginal community.  It's true of other cultures of
24     the world as well.
25  3916                 WETV's interest is broader than the


 1     Canadian interest.  It is out of a sense that if we go
 2     into the next century and our culture is dominated by a
 3     few city blocks square of activity in some corner of
 4     Los Angeles and that we don't see the diverse cultures
 5     of the world, this is an unhealthy state of affairs.
 6  3917                 So, simply from a human development
 7     standpoint, it's important that we find ways of better
 8     reflecting who we are.  It's unhealthy not to.  Lack of
 9     peace and security often relates to underrepresentation
10     of people.  When they feel their identity is not being
11     well represented, anger and distemper emerges.  I'm now
12     not speaking about Canada, I'm talking about the world.
13  3918                 So, there are real important reasons
14     not to allow ourselves to become univocal in how we
15     represent culture.  Canada has an advantage over most
16     countries because it has, from its beginning, concerned
17     itself with a reflection of our own diversity in
18     matters of public concern.  Many other countries
19     haven't.  They're looking to Canada for leadership in
20     this.  WETV is one initiative to provide that
21     leadership, and the programming that we reflect from
22     Canada, we want to reflect its diversity, and that
23     absolutely includes programming that might come from an
24     aboriginal service.
25  3919                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you. 


 1     If we bring this discussion back now to Canada and your
 2     very clear position on mandatory carriage as an
 3     essential part of the business plan, but more than that
 4     in terms of the importance of this proposal, can I have
 5     your reaction to comments that would say from some
 6     parties and some who have supported the application but
 7     been hesitant and opposed mandatory carriage, how you
 8     feel that cable subscribers will react?  What is your
 9     reaction to the comment that this is counter to the
10     notion of customer choice?  It's not the first time
11     that that comment has been raised.  In fact, it has
12     been raised recently in terms of other decisions we've
13     made.
14  3920                 MR. NOSTBAKKEN:  I'll comment and
15     then Linda can comment.
16  3921                 I think it was Ms Kuptana that
17     pointed out you can hardly talk about choice when
18     certain elements of choice aren't there.  There is a
19     lack of choice in the Canadian cable universe by virtue
20     of not having as much diversity as we would like to
21     see, including an aboriginal channel.
22  3922                 You're talking about the mandatory
23     question.  Our arguments are if you can have mandatory,
24     if you can have basic, if you can have notions of
25     public concern as our Broadcasting Act calls for, does


 1     this application fit into those concepts, and it
 2     squarely fits into those concepts.  So, if you're going
 3     to provide any mandatory services, it seems to me there
 4     are very good reasons, as we have laid out, to include
 5     aboriginal service as a mandatory service.
 6                                                        1945
 7  3923                 And it is not eliminating choice if
 8     you are in a multichannel universe and it is one of the
 9     viable choices.
10  3924                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  I think
11     the elimination of choice is often angled on the fact
12     that this is -- the pattern is to add services without
13     one having said:  I want that particular service.  So
14     that we are told there will be adverse reaction.  And
15     you have had experiences.
16  3925                 MS RANKIN:  It is the third or fourth
17     time that that position has been put forward by the
18     CCTA.  And, in fact, every time they are confronted
19     with a licensing scenario, that is what they put
20     forward.
21  3926                 So I, from my position, it has worn
22     thin.  Because when the Commission has given due
23     consideration in an open forum to the presentations of
24     licensees on why the service fits in certain criteria
25     and they have been licensed and they have then fought


 1     their way into some kind of carriage arrangement,
 2     indeed within months they are part of the landscape and
 3     they have an audience.  And they survive and prosper in
 4     a very short period of time.
 5  3927                 I have no doubt that this one will,
 6     in fact, follow that same route.  And there is no
 7     reason at all to presuppose that someone will not watch
 8     it.  Someone earlier made a comment that you cannot do
 9     market research to a market that hasn't -- that does
10     not have the product.  They do not know what they do
11     not know and that is absolutely the case.
12  3928                 But when given the product to try,
13     certainly in the case of television, it is quite clear
14     that each product finds its audience.  And I think that
15     -- no, I do not think, I know that this one will find
16     its audience as well.  And we will be surprised at the
17     degree to which the audience, in fact, is
18     non-Aboriginal.
19  3929                 When we started WTN, 60 per cent of
20     our audience were men because they really wanted to
21     find out what women were all about.  And that has
22     dropped back to -- it is the case, though.  That has
23     dropped back to an audience of 40 per cent men and 60
24     per cent women for WTN.
25  3930                 Another thing that they said, when we


 1     started a women's channel was that we were ghettoizing
 2     women.  And, in fact, that was not the case at all. 
 3     Women found their place.  And another thing they told
 4     us was that if all the programming was done on the
 5     women's channel then the others would no longer carry
 6     programming for women.  That is not the case.  The fact
 7     is that women's programming has become quite popular
 8     and found its place on all of the other channels as
 9     well.
10  3931                 So every argument that I have heard
11     here today about APTN and what it will or will not do,
12     what it will or will not find or whether it will or
13     will not create a negative situation is absolutely the
14     cases they put forward for or against the women's
15     channel.  And none of it -- none of it has borne out.
16     And all of the positive things about having a women's
17     channel have been borne out.
18  3932                 So I take that example as exactly, I
19     believe, what will happen with APTN.
20  3933                 MR. NOSTBAKKEN:  If I could just add
21     a couple of other things.  I think the statement that
22     the notion that viewers will not choose, it is not a
23     question of is there viewer choice, but the CCTA notion
24     seems to be that if there is a licensed service it will
25     not be chosen, reflects a view -- a stereotypical view


 1     of what an Aboriginal service might be, rather than a
 2     vibrant, entertaining, engaging service.
 3  3934                 Secondly, just another experience was
 4     that when Vision was first struggling to get on the
 5     air, it had to find programming wherever it could at
 6     the lowest cost.  And one of its sources of early
 7     programming was National Film Board product that the
 8     conventional services were not carrying.  They were not
 9     carrying it for a number of reasons, political and
10     otherwise.  But basically the notion was that those
11     National Film Board products would never garner an
12     audience interest.
13  3935                 When Vision and some others started
14     carrying a National Film Board product, it was soon
15     evident that there were audiences for it.  So soon
16     almost all services were carrying National Film Board
17     product.
18  3936                 So to some extent you have to
19     legitimize your program offering.  You have to create
20     interest and you have to develop critical mass.
21  3937                 No one is assuming that every new
22     licence service is going to have full audiences right
23     away.  They have to learn, they have to grow, they have
24     to build.  And one of the reasons we think it should be
25     mandatory is to grow and to build.  First of all, to be


 1     as widely seen as possible and, secondly, to have the
 2     financial resource in order to, in fact, produce high
 3     quality programming.
 4  3938                 COMMISSIONER PENNEFATHER:  Thank you
 5     very much, that concludes my questions.  Interesting
 6     how National Film Board seems to find itself.
 7  3939                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I see that your
 8     passion does not wane with the lateness of the hour. 
 9     Commissioner Cardoza's either.
10  3940                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZA:  I do not have
11     a question, I just have a comment to make.  As I was
12     saying earlier, these hearings are very interesting for
13     us because we get to meet a lot of the people who have
14     had a real impact.  Although, unlike Adam Beach, I am
15     sorry to tell you that nobody asked me to get your home
16     phone numbers.
17  3941                 I just wanted to I say that I really
18     appreciated your discussion with Commissioner
19     Pennefather in terms of your observations about
20     starting channels that had a dream behind them.  And I
21     encourage you to keep active and continue talking about
22     these things because it is very helpful for us to
23     understand some of the things you have just talked
24     about, thank you.
25  3942                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank


 1     you, Ms Rankin.  It is nice to see you again.  Thank
 2     you, Mr. Nostbakken.  And thank you for staying so late
 3     and still remaining quite excited about the subject. 
 4     We need this.
 5  3943                 Madam Secretary.
 6  3944                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 7     The next intervention will be by Communications &
 8     Diversity Network.
10  3945                 MR. LUMB:  Well, as you can see,
11     Madam Chair, commissioners, I wrote "good morning".
12  3946                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You are an
13     optimistic man.
14  3947                 MR. LUMB:  I was not optimistic.  If
15     we just waited a few more hours, good morning would be
16     true.  I also noticed that the air conditioning was
17     turned off at seven.  Can you promise the lights will
18     not be turned off for another three minutes or so?
19  3948                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It is very
20     difficult here because it is very hot and dry.  But we
21     are anxious to hear you anyway.
22  3949                 MR. LUMB:  Okay.  Well, with me
23     today, Maria Shin, who has worked in the areas of race
24     relations and multi-culturalism and who, perhaps
25     realizing the power of television is now a producer. 


 1     And on this side, another Maria, Maria Belisario, an
 2     associate producer working with Ms Shin, who came here
 3     from Venezuela six years ago.  She will offer some
 4     additional thoughts on how important this is not only
 5     for Aboriginal people in Canada, but perhaps
 6     everywhere.
 7  3950                 The Communications and Diversity
 8     Network is absolutely delighted to have this
 9     opportunity to speak on behalf of TVNC's licence
10     application for an Aboriginal Peoples Television
11     Network.
12  3951                 This is surely one of the most
13     exciting and timely applications to come before the
14     CRTC.  Exciting because it offers, at last, the
15     prospect for a rich and complete schedule of
16     programming from an aboriginal perspective.  And timely
17     because, as Canada grows ever more diverse, the culture
18     and history of its First Nations need a channel of
19     their own to offer a clear and accurate image not only
20     to Aboriginal communities across Canada but to all
21     Canadians.
22  3952                 In a very real sense, Madam Chair,
23     the inspiration for this challenging venture came from
24     the CRTC itself, which announced earlier this year that
25     it would consider any TVNC application for a service


 1     widely available throughout Canada "to serve the
 2     diverse needs of the various Aboriginal communities, as
 3     well as other Canadians."
 4  3953                 The Commission might be said to have
 5     bet on a sure thing for two reasons:  First, since its
 6     birth in 1988, TVNC has ably demonstrated its ability
 7     to distribute relevant programming in the north; and,
 8     secondly, TVNC would naturally want to grasp this
 9     opportunity to expand from a distribution agency
10     focused on the north, to a network providing a wide
11     range of programming capable of being seen across
12     Canada.
13  3954                 Naturally, too, such an expansion
14     requires funding.  The suggested cable fee of 15 cents
15     per viewer per month and potential advertising revenue
16     would enable TVNC to become self-supporting and to
17     phase out federal funding.  I note that is in five
18     years.
19  3955                 APTN would then have the same kind of
20     chance to realize its place in the Canadian television
21     spectrum as, say, CBC Newsworld.
22  3956                 The latter built on the base provided
23     by CBC main channel regional and national news services
24     to become the important contributor to information for
25     viewers it is today.  So also, APTN can build on TVNC's


 1     existing outlets and exchange capacity and indeed on
 2     its pool of talent to become a vital provider of
 3     original and diverse programming.
 4  3957                 APTN has emphasized that it is not a
 5     specialty channel but a core service for Aboriginal
 6     peoples, a voice for them and a window on Aboriginal
 7     life for all Canadians.  A core service suggests --
 8     that is the wrong word -- a core service demands that
 9     this voice be placed to the greatest advantage, in this
10     case, mandatory carriage on the basic tier of cable
11     channels.
12  3958                 This request undoubtedly faces
13     opposition.  We have seen that and heard that today. 
14     Arguments against range from a shortage of channel
15     space to APTN's likely lack of wide appeal compared to,
16     say, popular programming on American networks enshrined
17     in some of the best seats in the house.
18  3959                 Well, if this argument had true
19     validity, then the CBC should never have been founded. 
20     There are those who would deny the CBC's important
21     contribution to Canadian culture over the decades, but
22     the record shows otherwise.  Given time and a good seat
23     in the Canadian television house, APTN will also prove
24     itself.
25  3960                 Its proposed programming schedule is


 1     impressive:  Drama, music, news, current affairs,
 2     sports, traditional skills and, of course, a range of
 3     Aboriginal languages.  Of particular interest is an
 4     emphasis on live and interactive programming aimed at
 5     community connections, a social issue documentary, for
 6     instance, followed by phone-in debate, a catalyst for
 7     healing, reconciliation and interaction and community
 8     expression, as APTN says.  Now, north can be connected
 9     to south and east to west, a reaching out never dreamed
10     of by communities often inward-looking and steeped in
11     isolation and silence.  Perhaps I should have said
12     enforced isolation and silence.
13  3961                 And there is a remarkable potential
14     for reaching out to other Canadians who will be given a
15     better chance than ever before to see and grasp the
16     essence of a different culture at work and at play; to
17     see firsthand the creativity of peoples of whom they
18     might well have other, less rosy images because of
19     day-to-day conscious or unwitting stereotyping, perhaps
20     even to advance towards a greater understanding and
21     acceptance of the Aboriginal approach to life.  APTN
22     offers all Canadians the chance to peel away the labels
23     and discover the true Aboriginal voices.
24  3962                 We all know the power of television,
25     its almost scary ability to fix an image on an


 1     individual or a community.  We have seen actors soar
 2     and then fall from grace.  We have seen politicians
 3     anointed one year and hounded from office another.
 4  3963                 And in the case of Aboriginal
 5     peoples, we have seen a block of communities made up of
 6     hundreds of thousands of individuals corralled into a
 7     single enclosure of censure and disapproval.
 8  3964                 The CRTC opened the gate of the
 9     corral; now it should take the next logical step by
10     mandating APTN as a core channel on basic cable.
11  3965                 Thank you, Madam Chair.
12  3966                 I was going to say, I don't know
13     whether at this point you would like to hear from our
14     two other presenters.
15  3967                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.
16  3968                 MS SHIN:  Good evening, Madam Chair,
17     Commissioners.  Thank you for the opportunity to speak
18     to you.  I am sorry, I apologize I have not prepared a
19     written commission.
20  3969                 I am also very honoured to speak to
21     an audience of Aboriginal peoples this evening.  Thank
22     you.  My name is Maria Shin and I am an independent
23     producer working out of Ottawa.
24  3970                 As Lionel Lumb has just indicated, I
25     was also involved in race relations and


 1     multi-culturalism policy areas for a long time.
 2                                                        2000
 3  3971                 I was a former executive director of
 4     the Canadian Ethnocultural Council and the National
 5     Capital Alliance on Race Relations.  I have also served
 6     as communications officer at the Canadian Labour
 7     Congress.  As well, I am on the board of trustees of
 8     Sawb (ph.) Video Co-op, which is a production and
 9     postproduction facility in Ottawa for videomakers,
10     artists and community organizations.
11  3972                 Let me first say that I am absolutely
12     thrilled at the prospect of the creation of the first
13     national aboriginal network in Canada and in the world,
14     and I think the kind of leadership that Canada took 50
15     years ago to help create the UN Declaration of Human
16     Rights, you as the Commission have a similar
17     opportunity here to set historical and international
18     precedents.
19  3973                 On that note, I hate to sound a
20     little negative, but I would like to lodge a personal
21     complaint.
22  3974                 Twenty-five years ago I arrived to
23     Canada with my family as a 10-year-old from South
24     Korea.  It was a whole generation ago.  So my question
25     is, why was there not a national aboriginal network 25


 1     years ago when I arrived?
 2  3975                 I feel I have been cheated a lifetime
 3     of experience and learning that I could have had to be
 4     aware of who we were, who we are today and who we are
 5     about to become as peoples.  I feel quite angry about
 6     that missed opportunity, but at the same time I am
 7     absolutely joyed and ecstatic and honoured that future
 8     children of mine will have opportunities that I have
 9     missed out.
10  3976                 So I will tell you a little bit about
11     why I feel excited about this landmark opportunity.
12  3977                 This is a monumental step towards a
13     more democratic industry, viewership and nation
14     building and development of a society.  This will have
15     a profound impact on this industry and culture at every
16     level.  I don't think we will realize for a while what
17     kind of impact this will have.
18  3978                 Aside from the economic arguments put
19     forward to you, the artistic and cultural merit of this
20     application to me is very profound.  I will point to
21     you some examples that I can think of and relate to an
22     example of my own experience having to produce a
23     current documentary that I am working on.
24  3979                 I think it will help to increase
25     awareness and understanding for key decision makers of


 1     this industry -- broadcasters, programmers,
 2     distributors, et cetera.
 3  3980                 I am currently working on a
 4     documentary in association with Vision TV and the
 5     National Film Board.  It is called "Journey to Little
 6     Rock".  It is about a human rights activist in Canada. 
 7     Her name is Minnijean Brown Trickey.  She was one of
 8     nine black students who went to all-white school for
 9     the first time in Little Rock 40 years ago, and she is
10     about to receive the Congressional Gold Medal.
11  3981                 When she came to Canada 30 years ago
12     and began befriending native peoples, working with
13     native youth on non-violence issues, she came to
14     realize how painfully similar the treatment of native
15     peoples in Canada was to the treatment of African
16     Americans in the United States.
17  3982                 When I began pitching this program to
18     broadcasters, key industry personnel, the light bulbs
19     went on when they realized those similarities existed
20     and do exist.  It struck me, as a learning experience
21     for me but a learning experience for the people in the
22     industry, but I think that a profound sense of
23     consciousness doesn't exist still.
24  3983                 Anyone who has ever tried to finance
25     a television program in Canada knows that, in order to


 1     finance a program, you have to convince a handful of
 2     commissioning editors and executive producers.  Viewers
 3     have very little choice from the beginning on what kind
 4     of programs will end up on television.
 5  3984                 In my viewpoint, the more diverse
 6     that community of commissioning editors and executive
 7     producers in our country, as this application will
 8     surely add to that diversity, the more opportunities
 9     there will be for viewers to have more programming
10     choice.
11  3985                 I would also like to support I
12     believe it was the representatives from CanWest Global
13     who pointed out earlier that storytelling itself and
14     the whole creative and imaginative ways in which we can
15     begin to retell not only aboriginal stories but all
16     sorts of stories from right across this country is
17     going to be profoundly impacted by this application.
18  3986                 When women start to join men-only
19     organizations, you profoundly change that culture, you
20     profoundly change the kind of stories you tell and the
21     ways in which you tell those stories.  So this is going
22     to have a profound impact on every level of the
23     industry in Canada in the television and filmmaking and
24     home medium that is expanding and becoming globalized.
25  3987                 I just want to end on that note and


 1     to thank you, the Commission and the applicant, and
 2     congratulate both of you for this historical and
 3     universal opportunity that you are affording for all of
 4     us.
 5  3988                 I would just like to close -- because
 6     I was telling my friend this morning that I would be
 7     appearing, on a last minute's notice, before the
 8     Commission.  My friend, Pierrette Barry-Morris (ph.) in
 9     Ottawa, who is a singer-songwriter -- "Oh Susana" --
10     when she heard that this would be the first time ever
11     in the world that there would be a national aboriginal
12     network, she said, "Yeah Canada!"
13  3989                 Thank you.
14  3990                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Shin.
15  3991                 Ms Belisario.
16  3992                 MS BELISARIO:  First of all, I
17     apologize, I don't have anything in writing and I
18     didn't prepare enough for this, but I am glad I am the
19     last one.
20  3993                 I don't think I can add something new
21     to what all these marvellous people have said already. 
22     As I learned that there was a possibility to have a
23     First Nations national broadcaster, I was surprised and
24     thrilled.  First of all, I remembered where I come
25     from, and definitely it will be a universal achievement


 1     if this happens.  I am sure, from all the efforts that
 2     I see, it will be a reality.  I don't see any reasons
 3     not to have this happening and I don't quite understand
 4     why it should be so complicated to have a First Nations
 5     national broadcaster happening here in Canada.
 6  3994                 I applaud all the efforts, but it has
 7     been a long day, and I don't understand so many
 8     reasons -- there is no reason to say "no".  That's the
 9     way I see it.
10  3995                 To me, this is going to be an
11     international event, it is going to be historic, as
12     Maria said.  I feel honoured to be here and to have
13     been asked by Maria and Lionel and for you to permit me
14     to speak my mind here.
15  3996                 I am a newcomer to this land; I just
16     came six years ago.  When I first came, I had to really
17     do research to learn about the First Peoples in Canada
18     because there was no place, there was nobody in the
19     media and nobody on TV.  I thought, well, where are
20     they?
21  3997                 Now I have a baby who is a Canadian
22     and I am very happy that he is going to have the chance
23     to see the First Peoples in Canada speak up by
24     themselves.  I am very proud to be here.
25  3998                 Thank you.


 1  3999                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 2     Ms Belisario.  We thank all three of you.
 3  4000                 I hope you are not suggesting,
 4     Ms Belisario, that the trick is to wear us down.
 5  4001                 MS BELISARIO:  I was going to end on
 6     a lighter note and bring the Juan Valdez from the
 7     coffee shop and say, "Look, this is what the media
 8     does", but they didn't let me take it, so I couldn't do
 9     it.
10  4002                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  It just goes to
11     show that some positive stereotypes can work too.
12  4003                 MS BELISARIO:  Yes, exactly.
13  4004                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't have any
14     questions.  I don't know if my colleagues have some. 
15     No?
16  4005                 We thank you for your eloquence.
17  4006                 I think we saw you, Mr. Lumb, during
18     the TV Network --
19  4007                 MR. LUMB:  Yes.  Like Sandy Crawley,
20     I can wear more than one hat, Madam Chair.
21  4008                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I don't remember
22     you being accompanied by two ladies that time.
23  4009                 MR. LUMB:  Just one.  I thought I
24     needed all the help I could possibly get and I felt a
25     really deep need to have people who can speak of their


 1     own experience, rather than that of an official
 2     grouping of people, come before you and put their side
 3     of things in words that come from the heart.
 4  4010                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We agree, and, as
 5     Commissioner Cardozo said earlier, it is always very
 6     helpful for us to hear from people who are really in
 7     the trenches, so to speak, and can speak of their
 8     experiences from having experienced them.  So we
 9     appreciate your choice of company for the evening -- or
10     the beginning of the evening at least.  We hope you
11     have a nice weekend.
12  4011                 MR. LUMB:  I just wanted to say one
13     thing.  Please, will you allow me to say just one
14     thing?
15  4012                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Absolutely.
16  4013                 MR. LUMB:  I do have a bone to pick
17     with the APTN people, what I hope will become the APTN
18     folks here.  There is going to be a program, a humorous
19     program called "Grannies".  I am now a grandfather and
20     I absolutely demand that we have a programmed called
21     "Granddads".
22  4014                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am a grannie.  I
23     will be well served.
24  4015                 MR. LUMB:  Thank you very much.
25  4016                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  But you wouldn't


 1     want to know what my grandchildren think of this
 2     program.
 3  4017                 Thank you very much, and have a nice
 4     weekend.
 5  4018                 MS SHIN:  Thank you.
 6  4019                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I believe, Madam
 7     Secretary, this is the last intervention?
 8  4020                 MS SANTERRE:  Yes.
 9  4021                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take a 10-
10     minute break, or is the -- you are ready?  I was going
11     to call my husband and tell him I am still alive.  We
12     will hear you, then.
13  4022                 Madam Secretary.
14  4023                 MS SANTERRE:  Therefore, we will
15     invite Television Northern Canada Incorporated to
16     comment on interventions filed to its application.
17  4024                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Welcome back.
18  4025                 Go ahead when you are ready.
20  4026                 MR. TAGALIK:  (Opening comment in
21     native language / Commentaire introductif en langue
22     autochtone)
23  4027                 I would like to thank all the
24     interveners, both positive and negative.  I think a lot
25     of that came from the heart today, and it is really


 1     gratifying to know that we have a lot of support.  We
 2     wanted to sit here until you said "yes", but we ran out
 3     of interveners.
 4  4028                 Just on the power of television, I
 5     remember watching television for the very first time as
 6     a nine-year-old when we went to Churchill.  I was quite
 7     awed, having heard about it.  Today we are talking
 8     about the same medium but we want to see a mirror where
 9     we can see ourselves.  That is part of the draw of
10     television; it is really amazing.  Another one comes to
11     mind where two drunks are in the alley, there is a pile
12     of garbage and a broken-down television.  The other
13     drunk says, "Even when it is dead, that thing demands
14     attention."
15  4029                 So I think it really shows that it is
16     a powerful medium and that we really care that we want
17     to show our stories on here.  I think that really got
18     brought out today.
19  4030                 I would like to thank our board, and
20     on behalf of our board, part of our team, I am really
21     thankful for all the patience shown today, not only
22     from them but also from you guys and your staff.
23                                                        2015
24  4031                 APTN would like to note that it filed
25     its reply on October 30th to all the written


 1     interventions.
 2  4032                 During your examination of our
 3     application and in your questions to intervenors, you
 4     asked how the Commission should inform Canadians that a
 5     new aboriginal peoples television network is being
 6     introduced to the Canadian distribution system.
 7  4033                 We would suggest that you may use the
 8     wording contained in your recent TVA decision.  APTN
 9     believes that it can make an invaluable contribution to
10     the Canadian broadcasting system since it will offer a
11     large proportion of higher quality and distinct
12     Canadian programming in all categories.
13  4034                 This will achieve many objectives of
14     the Broadcasting Act as set out in our application. 
15     Moreover, we believe that it would be anachronistic
16     that, on the eve of the year 2000, that an aboriginal
17     television network is not available to aboriginals and
18     non-aboriginal Canadians.
19  4035                 MR. TOURIGNY:  To the more specific
20     points raised during your examination-in-chief, we
21     would like to provide the following additional
22     information.
23  4036                 On the issue of the licensing
24     framework:  APTN would agree to have a satellite to
25     cable (including DTH and MDS) programming undertaking


 1     licence.  We understand that such a licence would be
 2     governed by the Television Broadcasting Regulations,
 3     which is the framework we relied on in developing the
 4     APTN application.
 5  4037                 We have reviewed the TVA 9(1)(h)
 6     order and believe that a similar order should be issued
 7     to APTN with the following elements:
 8  4038                 APTN notes that your proposed order
 9     for TVA captures all Class 1 and Class 2 and DTH
10     systems immediately; and following our discussion with
11     Commissioner Wylie this morning, we believe that it may
12     no longer be reasonable to assume that 50 percent of
13     the Class 2 cable systems will voluntarily agree to
14     distribute our service in year 1 of the licence term.
15  4039                 Accordingly, consistent with
16     paragraph a) of your TVA order, we would request that
17     APTN be mandatory for Class 1 and Class 2 and DTH
18     distributors upon the launch of APTN scheduled for the
19     1st of September 1999.
20  4040                 We would require a revised paragraph
21     d) in the order and we suggest the following language
22     be included in an APTN distribution order:
23                            "Distribution licensees shall be
24                            authorized to increase the basic
25                            service fees to be paid by their


 1                            subscribers to recover the
 2                            subscriber fee paid to APTN and
 3                            authorized under the terms of
 4                            APTN's licence, with respect to
 5                            the distribution of APTN's
 6                            programming service pursuant to
 7                            this order."
 8  4041                 On the issue of the split fee or the
 9     reduced fee for francophone markets:  On your question
10     of what sort of rate structure could be established for
11     the French and English language markets, we have
12     reviewed our business plan and believe that we could
13     achieve similar revenues as projected in our
14     application if the subscriber fee in English-language
15     markets was 17 cents per subscriber per month and 10
16     cents per sub per month in French-language markets.
17  4042                 On the Cancom breakdown of satellite
18     feed costs:  In our application there is a letter from
19     Cancom which refers to quotes made by Cancom in May of
20     1998 in relation to the carriage of APTN in the manner
21     set out in its application.  APTN will make the May
22     letter, with its quotes, available to the Commission by
23     the end of next week if Cancom agrees to its public
24     release.
25  4043                 On closed captioning:  APTN


 1     understands that need to provide its service to all
 2     Canadians, including those that have hearing
 3     disabilities.  Accordingly, APTN is prepared to commit
 4     by the end of its first licence term to close caption
 5     100 percent of its in-house productions.
 6  4044                 At this point, it just includes our
 7     news programming and noon-talk hour as our only in-
 8     house productions that are in our proposed scheduled.
 9  4045                 For our English-language
10     independently produced programming, we would commit to
11     close caption 90 percent of this programming by the end
12     of the first licence term.
13  4046                 For our aboriginal-language
14     programming, we have budgeted $500,000 per year to do
15     versioning in various languages.
16  4047                 For the French-language programming,
17     we would be prepared to provide the Commission with a
18     report a year after launch that would set out what type
19     of closed captioning that APTN could possibly effect in
20     relation to this programming.
21  4048                 Earlier today, you requested that we
22     file the Contribution Agreement.  I think it was termed
23     a Memorandum of Understanding.  It is in fact a
24     Contribution Agreement between the Department of
25     Canadian Heritage and TVNC.


 1  4049                 We will undertake to provide it to
 2     the CRTC by the end of next week.
 3  4050                 In response to the CCTA's
 4     intervention today, we would like to make the following
 6  4051                 On the copyright fee:  We would waive
 7     this fee and, in any event, have not included it in our
 8     financial.  Moreover, we may be considered a non-
 9     broadcast service, in terms of the copyright provision,
10     like Access Alberta since our point of origination will
11     be in the southern region and would be outside of the
12     market where the over-the-air transmission will occur.
13  4052                 In other words, if we are going to be
14     uplinking the prime signal out of Winnipeg, we will not
15     have an over-the-air transmitter in Winnipeg.
16  4053                 On customer choice:  The CCTA's
17     opposition is not about consumer choice but rather
18     about cable not having a choice.  Cable wants to
19     substitute itself on deciding what gets on the system. 
20     They seem to be consumer advocates in this regard, and
21     yet we had no interventions from consumer groups
22     opposing the fee.  CCTA seems to have taken that on as
23     another hat that they wear because they claim that they
24     are closest to the subscriber.
25  4054                 We believe the Broadcasting Act has


 1     mandated the CRTC to decide what should be carried on
 2     the system and that it would be inappropriate to
 3     delegate this obligation to the cable systems.  If
 4     increasing choice through digital is the best option,
 5     then why wasn't SportsNet included on a digital tier as
 6     they wanted a driver for that tier?
 7  4055                 APTN has specifically addressed the
 8     issue of customer demand in its marketing research.  We
 9     believe our research demonstrates that Canadians want
10     the service and are willing to pay for it.  In fact,
11     our research demonstrates that 22 percent of the people
12     surveyed do not currently purchase cable; of these,
13     one-third said that they would be more likely to
14     subscribe if APTN were offered.  All it would take for
15     BDUs to recover 15 cents would be a less than 1 percent
16     increase in the overall penetration of basic cable.
17  4056                 On capacity:  Looking at the
18     Kitchener line-up, there are three alphanumeric
19     services, one duplicate Canadian station, and the Home
20     Shopping Channel -- which is an exempt service.
21  4057                 For Ottawa, we have one alphanumeric
22     and one exempt service that could be made available. 
23     But we believe Ottawa will be a prime location for
24     system upgrade in order to compete with Look TV -- and
25     they are probably going to go to 750 megs.


 1  4058                 Digital carriage is not an option: 
 2     APTN could never be offered at a reasonable cost on
 3     digital and still meet its business plan.  The CRTC
 4     asked that APTN come up with a plan that would ensure
 5     wide distribution, in your February notice that we
 6     responded to.
 7  4059                 Digital carriage does not fulfil the
 8     mandate of having a core service widely available. 
 9     There is no business case based on the fictional
10     digital distribution advocated by cable.  Cable still
11     only hopes for digital distribution. Today, cable
12     cannot give the CRTC any specific forecasts with
13     respect to the digital roll-out.
14  4060                 We accept that APTN negotiated a good
15     bank rate loan.  We are a very efficient organization. 
16     We would expect nothing less of us.
17  4061                 We note that the bank loan requires
18     mandatory distribution at 15 cents.  The bank didn't
19     just say not digital; they said it must be mandatory,
20     it must be at 15 cents.  Banks would not approve
21     financing based on what amounts to hopeful digital
22     distribution.
23  4062                 We note that the 16 cents a channel
24     cost referred to by the CCTA is a sunk cost.  It is
25     already embedded in the basic rate.  It is not an


 1     additional cost to cable or a new cost to cable.
 2  4063                 With respect to the 5 cent downlink
 3     cost, Cancom charges 5 to 20 cents, or more, for cable
 4     operators who purchase their package.  APTN will not be
 5     part of the Cancom package.  We are simply leasing
 6     space segment time from them.  Essentially, we will be 
 7     a stand-alone service on the satellite.
 8  4064                 Therefore, the incremental cost will
 9     be the decoder at the headend.  We also note that the
10     actual decoders cost only $2,000.  They had referred to
11     $3,500.  Maybe that includes wiring, but they have
12     technicians on staff that can wire them in place.  It
13     is a fairly simple operation.  It takes about five
14     minutes.
15  4065                 The sticker cost is already
16     anticipated by the cable industry, because they have to
17     launch other services in September 1999.  It is
18     precisely because we knew that APTN would be launching
19     with other service that the September 1999 launch was
20     anticipated.
21  4066                 On our capacity estimates, APTN used
22     Mediastats cable guide for Class 1 and Class 2 cable
23     systems.  According to this information that was
24     updated in May of 1998, 89 percent of these systems had
25     at least one channel.


 1  4067                 MR. TAGALIK:  Thanks, Pat.
 2  4068                 In closing, we believe that APTN will
 3     offer a truly distinct, unique public interest service
 4     that Canadians truly want and deserve.  Not only will
 5     APTN be a tremendous addition to the Canadian
 6     broadcasting system, it is being offered at what we
 7     consider to be a true bargain rate.
 8  4069                 And if you wish to raises that rate,
 9     we would certainly go for that too.
10  4070                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am listening.
11  4071                 MR. TAGALIK:  Thank you for your
12     attention.  We feel truly privileged to be here today,
13     and look forward with tremendous anticipation to your
14     decision.
15  4072                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  You didn't think I
16     was asleep, did you?
17  4073                 Commissioner Cardozo.
18  4074                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thanks, Madam
19     Chair.  And thank you for those comments.
20  4075                 I noted that the CCTA thought your
21     negotiations with banks was very efficient, and I
22     thought maybe you should lend your services to the CCTA
23     to help negotiate their loans, and maybe they will have
24     something for you in exchange.
25  4076                 My question is to do with French


 1     language broadcasting.  We talked about it earlier --
 2     yesterday or this morning; I have lost sense of time --
 3     during this proceeding.
 4  4077                 One of the intervenors, the Centre
 5     for Research Action and Race Relations raised the issue
 6     in their presentation, and their suggestion was that
 7     you undertake some kind of consultation to find out
 8     what the needs are of French-speaking aboriginal
 9     peoples.
10  4078                 I am wondering if we can get an idea
11     from you as to your thoughts at this stage on increased
12     French-language broadcasting and whether you could make
13     any commitments in that regard.
14  4079                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We have also had
15     feedback from two of our members of our Southern
16     Advisory Group saying that we have to do more in that
17     regard.  I think it will be a function of the Board,
18     when it is drawing out the mandate of the service, to
19     ensure that that is more adequately addressed.  Seven
20     and a half hours a week is inadequate.
21  4080                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  If you were
22     raising it in a significant manner, it might change
23     one's perspective on the issue of a differential fee in
24     French-language markets and elsewhere.  Perhaps the
25     small amount of French-language programming that you


 1     have planned currently would suggest that the split fee
 2     or the differential fee is --
 3  4081                 MR. TOURIGNY:  We would prefer not to
 4     have a differential.  We would prefer to have a common
 5     fee across the country.
 6  4082                 I don't know how to pursue this.  But
 7     we can't fix a number and say it should be at 20 hours.
 8  4083                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And I don't
 9     want you to be making policy on the fly.
10  4084                 What could you tell us as to how you
11     would go about addressing it?
12  4085                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I think as the current
13     board and the advisory group, which is like a separate
14     -- it is not a board of directors, but it works closely
15     with our board.
16  4086                 We are having a busy weekend.  We
17     have a board meeting tomorrow and an AGM on Sunday, and
18     then we have to file stuff with the CRTC next week.
19  4087                 It will be discussed this weekend.
20  4088                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  And in
21     addition to which we have kept you until 8:30 -- in a
22     room that has no air.
23  4089                 MR. TOURIGNY:  If we have anything to
24     report as a result of the board meeting, then we will
25     report next week on that question -- or maybe the


 1     following week.  I am planning to be in Thunder Bay
 2     next week.
 3  4090                 COMMISSIONER CARDOZO:  Thank you very
 4     much.
 5  4091                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Counsel?
 6  4092                 MR. BATSTONE:  Just one quick
 7     question.
 8  4093                 When you talk about closed captioning
 9     in your reply, you use the word "commit".  Are we
10     talking expectation, conditional licence?
11  4094                 MR. TOURIGNY:  I don't know that you
12     use our condition of licence for other conventional
13     broadcasters --
14  4095                 MR. BATSTONE:  It is usually just
15     stated as a requirement.
16  4096                 MR. TOURIGNY:  As a requirement or a
17     commitment, expectation.  We want to be consistent with
18     other broadcasters.  We are growing and we are going to
19     grow fast.  We will be there.
20  4097                 MR. BATSTONE:  Thank you.
21  4098                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much.
23  4099                 Thank you for your participation and
24     for everybody retaining their good humour, despite the
25     late hour.


 1  4100                 I believe this ends this part of the
 2     process -- unless you have something else.  You seem
 3     puzzled.
 4                                                        2030
 5  4101                 MR. TOURIGNY:  There are no
 6     conditions of licence to run through?  Are they all
 7     covered?
 8  4102                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I believe that you
 9     have made your commitments in the written --
10  4103                 MR. TOURIGNY:  That's fine.  Yes, and
11     in the promise of performance we made all of those
12     commitments.
13  4104                 MR. BATSTONE:  Are you thinking of
14     one that we haven't covered?
15  4105                 We have enough.
16  4106                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  I assume, counsel,
17     that all of the conditions that we would usually ask
18     for are covered --
19  4107                 MR. TOURIGNY:  In the application
20     itself.
21  4108                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very
22     much.
23  4109                 MR. TOURIGNY:  Thank you very much. 
24     This has been a very historical two days.
25  4110                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary ...


 1  4111                 MS SANTERRE:  Thank you, Madam Chair. 
 2     There is one more thing that I have to say.
 3  4112                 During the course of this hearing we
 4     also considered eight non-appearing items, including
 5     the intervention during the course of the hearing. 
 6     Thank you.
 7  4113                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Madam
 8     Secretary.
 9  4114                 The oral part of this process has
10     come to an end, but our work has just begun on both the
11     appearing and non-appearing items scheduled at this
12     hearing.
13  4115                 We wish to thank both applicants and
14     all intervenors for their participation.
15  4116                 I wish, personally, to thank my
16     colleagues for their participation, and certainly I
17     speak for all three of us in thanking the staff for
18     their support and in retaining their good humour until
19     such a late hour.
20  4117                 I also thank the court stenographers
21     and the interpreters for their usual competence,
22     although on reading the transcript I often wish they
23     would correct my grammar.  I suspect that would not be
24     a sign of competence.  We thank you.
25  4118                 We hope everybody has a good weekend.


 1  4119                 I would have hoped, Mr. Tagalik, that
 2     by now I would have caught on to a few words, but I did
 3     not.  I hope, at least, that I pronounced your name
 4     properly.
 5  4120                 Thank you very much to all and good
 6     night.
 7     --- Whereupon the hearing concluded at / L'audience
 8         se termine à 2035
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