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                   TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
             FOR THE CANADIAN RADIO-TELEVISION AND
                 TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

                TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DU
                 CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
             ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                       SUBJECT / SUJET:

                  PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE 
           CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/
                CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA 
                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Crown Plaza                             Crown Plaza
Victoria Albert Room                    Salle Victoria Albert
350 St. Mary Avenue                     350, avenue St. Mary 
Winnipeg, Manitoba                      Winnipeg (Manitoba)

March 9, 1999                           Le 9 mars 1999

tel: 613-521-0703         StenoTran         fax: 613-521-7668

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès-verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.

                          StenoTran

                 Canadian Radio-television and
                 Telecommunications Commission

              Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
                télécommunications canadiennes

                  Transcript / Transcription

              Public Hearing / Audience publique

                  PUBLIC CONSULTATION ON THE 
           CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION (CBC)/
                CONSULTATIONS PUBLIQUES SUR LA 
                  SOCIÉTÉ RADIO-CANADA (SRC)

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Barbara Cram                            Chairperson / Présidente

Andrée Wylie                            Vice-Chairperson, Radio-
                                        television / Vice-
                                        présidente, Radiodiffusion

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Carolyn Pinsky                          Commission Counsel /
                                        Avocat du Conseil

Rod Lahay                               Broadcasting Planning
                                        Services / Service de la
                                        planification de la
                                        radiodiffusion

Gary Krushen                            Director, Winnipeg Regional
                                        Office / Directeur
                                        régional, Winnipeg

HELD AT:                                TENUE À:

Crown Plaza                             Crown Plaza
Victoria Albert Room                    Salle Victoria Albert
350 St. Mary Avenue                     350, avenue St. Mary 
Winnipeg, Manitoba                      Winnipeg (Manitoba)

March 9, 1999                           Le 9 mars 1999
                          StenoTran

                             ii    
            TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

                                                          PAGE

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Olena Ziombra                                             5
Ms Valerie Wadepool                                          9
Ms Ann Pedersen                                             15
Mr. Roy Benson                                              21
Mr. Bill Harrison                                           33
Mr. Carl Ridd                                               36
Ms Trish Masniuk                                            55
Mr. Jesse Vorst                                             65
Mr. Gordon Toombs                                           73
Mr. Brian McLeod                                            81
Ms Jamie Davidson                                           87
Ms Mary Hewitt-Smith                                        93
Mr. David Northcott                                         99
Ms Cheryl Ashton                                           104
Ms Carol Vivier                                            108
Mr. Murray Smith                                           115
Mr. Herbert Schulz                                         122
Mr. Kenneth Emberley                                       132
Mr. Ed Bachewich                                           141
Mr. Garnet Angeconeb                                       155
Mr. Dave Walley                                            164
Ms Tirzah Sharpe                                           172
                          StenoTran

                             iii
            TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

                                                          PAGE

Presentation by / Présentation par:

Ms Rita Menzies                                            177
Mr. Edward Hiebert                                         181
Ms Delaney Earthdancer                                     187
Mr. Bill Toews                                             196
Ms Janis Kaminsky                                          203
Ms Maxine Hasselriis                                       209
Mr. Maurice Strasfeld                                      213
  and Ms Celine Papillon
Ms Laurie Ankenman                                         219
Ms Phyllis Abbe                                            224
  and Mr. Mel Christian
Mr. Harold Shuster                                         228
Mr. Al Mackling                                            233
  and Mr. Dave Mackling
Ms Elizabeth Fleming                                       243
Ms Linda McMillan                                          246
Mr. Ian Ross                                               252
Mr. Don Laluk                                              258

Reply by / Réponse par:

Mr. John Bertrand                                          261

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                             1

 1                   Winnipeg, Manitoba / Winnipeg (Manitoba)
 2     --- Upon commencing on Tuesday, March 9, 1999
 3         at 1304 / L'audience commence le mardi
 4         9 mars 1999 à 1304
 5  1                    THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good day, ladies
 6     and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation
 7     on the CBC.
 8  2                    My name is Barbara Cram and I am a
 9     CRTC Commissioner.
10  3                    We are here to gather your views and
11     comments on CBC radio and television.  In your opinion,
12     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
13     its role in the coming years?
14  4                    The CBC is a national public service,
15     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
16     an important role in the Canadian broadcasting system. 
17     Today, many elements are constantly being added to the
18     broadcasting system, as new technologies multiply,
19     converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
20     new services.  In this context, we want to know what
21     are your needs and expectations as viewers and
22     listeners of the CBC.
23  5                    Given that, it is very important that
24     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
25     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
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                             2

 1     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
 2     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
 3     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
 4     and meet with you to discuss these issues and why we
 5     are holding this series of regional consultations, from
 6     one end of the country to the other, in eleven Canadian
 7     cities, from today until 18th.
 8  6                    These consultations are designed to
 9     give you a chance, on the eve of a new millennium, to
10     express your opinion on the CBC's role, the programming
11     it offers and the direction it should take at the
12     national, regional and local levels.
13  7                    Through these consultations we hope
14     to enter into an open dialogue with you and to hear
15     your concerns.  Your comments will from part of the
16     public record which will be added to the record of the
17     public hearing on the CBC beginning in Hull on May 25.
18  8                    At this upcoming hearing, the
19     Commission will examine the CBC's application for the
20     renewal of its licences, including radio, television
21     and its specialty services, Newsworld and Réseau de
22     l'information.  You can also take part in that public
23     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
24     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
25     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
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                             3

 1     your comments.
 2  9                    Now, I would like to come back to
 3     today.
 4  10                   Please allow me to introduce the CRTC
 5     staff that is here.  Carolyn Pinsky, our legal counsel. 
 6     This is Mr. Lahay.  He has a new outfit today.  I think
 7     he is on an airplane coming here.  Please feel free to
 8     call upon either Carolyn or Mr. Lahay, when he does
 9     arrive, with any questions you might have about the
10     process today, or any other matter.
11  11                   So that you will all have an
12     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
13     presentations to ten minutes.  As these consultations
14     are a forum primarily designed for you, we want to
15     listen to as many participants as possible and we will
16     not ask questions unless we require clarification.
17  12                   At the end of the session,
18     representatives of the local CBC stations will have a
19     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
20     interested by the issues we are discussing here today.
21  13                   Before we start, I would ask Carolyn
22     Pinsky, our legal counsel, to go over some of the
23     housekeeping matters regarding the conduct of this
24     hearing.
25  14                   Thank you.
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                             4

 1  15                   MS PINSKY:  Thank you,
 2     Commissioner Cram.
 3  16                   Firstly, there are translation
 4     services available in the other room if anybody
 5     requires them.
 6  17                   In order to sort of set out the
 7     process a bit, what I will be doing is calling up
 8     10 presenters at a time and at that time if you will
 9     all come up and take a place around the table.  I will
10     then call each presenter individually in turn to make
11     their presentation and they will have approximately
12     10 minutes to do so.
13  18                   When you begin your presentation, to
14     assist the court reporter, please ensure that your
15     microphone is on, you just press the button in the
16     front, and when you have completed that it is turned
17     off.
18  19                   For those who are in the audience
19     today and who don't wish to make a presentation, we do
20     have comment forms available at the front table if you
21     wish to put some thoughts in writing and then those
22     will be placed on the public file as well.
23  20                   So without further ado, I think I
24     will call the first 10 presenters:  Olena Ziombra --
25     and you can just come up and take a place at the table,
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                             5

 1     please -- Valerie Wadepool (ph); Ann Pedersen;
 2     Roy Benson; Bill Harrison; Carl Ridd; Trish Masniuk;
 3     Gordon Toombs; and Brian McLeod.
 4     --- Short pause / Courte pause
 5  21                   MS PINSKY:  We do seem to have room
 6     around the table and time, so perhaps I will call
 7     Jamie Davidson as well because he hadn't originally --
 8     I'm sorry -- she hadn't been scheduled.
 9     --- Short pause / Courte pause
10  22                   MS PINSKY:  We will now begin.
11  23                   I would first ask Olena Ziombra to
12     make a presentation.
13     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14  24                   MS ZIOMBRA:  Thank you for the
15     invitation from the CRTC Commission.
16  25                   The Canadian Broadcasting
17     Corporation, CBC, Radio-Canada sent me a letter because
18     I attended a CBC open house on October 1998 in
19     Winnipeg.
20  26                   The Canadian Radio-television and
21     Telecommunications Commission, CRTC, wants to know what
22     Canadians think of CBC radio and television.
23  27                   I think very highly of the English
24     radio network at the regional and national level. 
25     Television I don't watch too often and I think it's
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                             6

 1     satisfactory.
 2  28                   I am very proud of CBC broadcasters,
 3     the Commission, and management because they are
 4     representing Canada, Canadians from different
 5     nationalities, ethnic groups and Canadian living for
 6     the world.
 7  29                   CBC technicians and other employers
 8     are on strike and they paralyse the CBC networks from
 9     coast to coast.  They should be revived morally and
10     financially and send them back to work or some could
11     get transferred close to their parents and work there
12     for CBC, the same work they perform in the old place if
13     they like it.
14  30                   Questions, it says here, from CRTC:
15                            "In your view, how well does the
16                            CBC fulfil its role in national
17                            public broadcasting?  In the new
18                            millennium, should the CBC serve
19                            the public and fulfil its role
20                            in a different manner than it
21                            has in the past?" (As read)
22  31                   The answer:  Not really necessarily,
23     but if they have better ideas than the old ones, they
24     could try it.
25  32                   Question:
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                             7

 1                            "How well does the CBC serve the
 2                            public on a regional as well as
 3                            national level?"  (As read)
 4  33                   Radio programs at regional/national
 5     levels are very good.
 6                            "Should the programming provided
 7                            by CBC radio and television be
 8                            different from that provided by
 9                            other broadcasters?  If so, what
10                            should these differences be?" 
11                            (As read)
12  34                   Answer:  Differences should be the
13     best programs available in moral, educational,
14     cultural, financial, religious, music, news, and
15     children's programs because they meet the standards and
16     they are representing Canada in a regional and national
17     field.
18  35                   For example, Mr. Prime Minister often
19     is saying in his speech:  Canada is the best country in
20     the world.  Which is true.  So the broadcasters and
21     technicians should be happy, too, with the CBC.
22                            "Is there a special role that
23                            the CBC should play in the
24                            presentation of Canadian
25                            programs?  If so, what should
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                             8

 1                            this role be?"  (As read)
 2  36                   Answer:  Less sports programs on TV. 
 3     The Canadians are not interested in sports.  Instead of
 4     sports they should have more ethnic group programs on
 5     the radio and also on TV, at least 10 to 12 hours per
 6     week, like Ukrainian programs and other ethnic groups.
 7  37                   To the President of CBC,
 8     Mr. Beattie (ph), radio and TV broadcasters, employees
 9     across Canada and CRTC, Mr. Bertrand, all the best in
10     the future.  No more strikes.  The management of CBC
11     and the union should come to a fast agreement and
12     everybody who works for CBC radio should be satisfied,
13     healthy, wealthy and live a successful life.
14  38                   Thank you all for your attention.
15  39                   Also, thank you Judy Butler for her
16     service.  It's a pleasure to be here.
17  40                   Yacho Uzawara (ph) and my name is
18     Olena Ziombra.
19  41                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
20  42                   Ms Ziombra, do you live in Winnipeg?
21  43                   MS ZIOMBRA:  Yes, I am.
22  44                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Thank you.
23  45                   Please sit down when you are giving
24     your presentations.  We are trying to sort of create
25     a --
                          StenoTran

                             9

 1  46                   MS ZIOMBRA:  I'm very sorry.
 2  47                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, no, no, no, no. 
 3     I should have said it at the first.  That was my fault.
 4  48                   MS PINSKY:  The next presenter is
 5     Valerie Wadepool.
 6     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 7  49                   MS WADEPOOL:  Yes.  My name is
 8     Valerie Wadepool and I am representing Neil Slykerman
 9     who is the President of Campaign Life Coalition
10     Manitoba, a national organization which has as its aim
11     the promotion of the family as the basic building block
12     in society and the legal protection of all human life
13     from the moment of fertilization to natural death.
14  50                   I welcome the opportunity to voice
15     the concerns of our organization with respect to CBC
16     reporting on some social issues covered by your mandate
17     as an organization.
18  51                   It is our opinion that the CBC has
19     been less than fair on a number of occasions on these
20     issues in the past.  However, we want to address
21     ourselves, in particular, to the element of bias in a
22     documentary aired on January 19th of this year in
23     connection with the shooting of abortionist Dr. Barnet
24     Slepian (ph) in New York last fall on CBC's News
25     Magazine.
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                             10

 1  52                   Television, to be sure, is a most
 2     powerful educator, highly influential and shaping the
 3     public's minds on all kinds of issues and concerns.  It
 4     is a powerful tool which reaches far and wide into the
 5     hearts and minds of a multitude of Canadians.
 6  53                   At the heart of a democracy lies the
 7     right to knowledge.  This includes knowledge on
 8     controversial social issues.  Such issues especially
 9     must be dealt with in a responsible, non-biased manner
10     and reflect core values which have long since become
11     engrained in society.
12  54                   A balanced objective presentation of
13     such issues can go a long way toward a fair debate
14     among Canadians on these issues.  It is not for the
15     media to control that debate, only to present the
16     facts.  In presenting the facts, fairness and balance
17     must be a guiding force.  In our opinion, the
18     aforementioned documentary, which was aired under the
19     title "Thou Shalt Not Kill", was a departure from this
20     principle.  Allow me to explain.
21  55                   The mainstream pro-life movement in
22     Canada does not agree and in fact strongly disagrees
23     with the statements made by U.S. pastors
24     Mat Truhela (ph) and Michael Grey (ph) to the effect
25     that shooting an abortionist is not murder.  This has
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                             11

 1     the immediate effect of implicating the Canadian
 2     pro-life movement as a whole and putting it in a
 3     negative light.  These statements represent a radical
 4     view by a small U.S. segment of the anti-abortion
 5     movement, which is not supported by pro-lifers at all. 
 6     To pro-lifers, every human life is sacred and people
 7     who support the killing of an abortionist are in fact
 8     not pro-life.
 9  56                   Even though representatives of
10     Canadian pro-life groups strongly condemned the
11     shooting, a statement made again and again by these
12     representatives but largely ignored by the media, the
13     CBC had to rely on the help of this American group of
14     radicals to get its message across which covered the
15     bulk of the documentary.
16  57                   If the CBC had any knowledge of the
17     pro-life movement in Canada, while still maintaining a
18     non-biased stance, it would not have dared to associate
19     it in any way with this radical group.  Thus, the
20     pro-abortion mind set, which appears to run through all
21     our media, was well represented in this documentary.
22  58                   Without linking these American
23     radicals to Canada's pro-life movement, the CBC would
24     have had no show at all.  Even the only segment in the
25     documentary which was Canadian in content, the "Show
                          StenoTran

                             12

 1     the Truth" segment, was depicted to be a violent
 2     demonstration which it definitely is not.  "Show the
 3     Truth" is a peaceful protest by concerned citizens
 4     showing the reality of abortion to the public.
 5  59                   Campaign Life Coalition protests the
 6     airing of this type of unfair reactionary coverage.  It
 7     appears that the only purpose of this documentary was
 8     to discredit the mainstream Canadian pro-life movement. 
 9     By this presentation, the CBC was successful in
10     distorting the issue of abortion-related violence in
11     Canada in the minds of countless Canadians.  A real
12     service would have been provided to the Canadian public
13     if the content of this program would have been more
14     balanced.
15  60                   What's more, if the CBC were
16     interested in saving human lives, it would have paid
17     much more attention to what Canadian pro-lifers had to
18     say about the shooting of Dr. Barnet Slepian.  Perhaps
19     this is too much to ask and we can only urge the CBC to
20     be more balanced in its coverage.
21  61                   On another subject, the CBC is by
22     Canadians for Canadians, and we find it puzzling that
23     the House of Commons Debates on the Parliament Network
24     can only be viewed by cable or dish subscribers who
25     receive largely American content programming of
                          StenoTran

                             13

 1     American origin.  Rural homes which have no cable
 2     access are also deprived of this most Canadian
 3     programming.
 4  62                   To provide the debates through CBC,
 5     regularly scheduled programming may remain in place. 
 6     The CBC could use the off hours after the late night
 7     programs and before the 6:30 a.m. news.  You may be
 8     surprised how many would watch or tape this
 9     broadcasting to be viewed later.  This is a service the
10     CBC should be providing.
11  63                   On a personal level, though other
12     members of our group concur, the CBC often is an oasis
13     in a desert of mostly mindless noise with little
14     substance to choose from.  Where Americans have
15     membership networks with more cultural informative
16     content than commercial networks, Canadians have the
17     CBC.  Particularly, CBC radio is the station of choice
18     of our members.  This topic came up as an aside at an
19     executive meeting, so I do not say this from guesswork. 
20     The music, the classical and jazz is highly
21     appreciated, as are many of the documentaries.  Some
22     documentaries of emerging countries are so interesting
23     and well done that the visuals are not even missed. 
24     Congratulations.
25  64                   In closing, I want to thank the CRTC
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                             14

 1     for the opportunity to be heard.  I hope these remarks
 2     were within the parameters suggested for this
 3     presentation and that they will be considered.
 4  65                   Thank you very much.
 5  66                   UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Could you
 6     please have her repeat her name and the name of her
 7     organization, please?
 8  67                   MS WADEPOOL:  Valerie Wadepool,
 9     Campaign Life Coalition.
10  68                   UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  Thank you.
11  69                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ms Wadepool, are
12     you from Winnipeg also?
13  70                   MS WADEPOOL:  Yes, I am.
14  71                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you have any
15     other instances of what you would call unbalanced
16     programming that you have seen?
17  72                   MS WADEPOOL:  I don't have anything
18     written down in particular or anything that I can call
19     to mind right now because unfortunately, for some
20     reason -- I don't have cable because there is a lot of
21     programming on cable that I do not want to bring into
22     my home and I have to buy it as a package, so I just
23     have the antenna, and for some reason I have terrible
24     reception of CBC television personally.  So I can't say
25     anything about that.
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 1  73                   But that's another thing I could go
 2     off on a tangent about, these packages that I am forced
 3     to buy channels which would never fly if they had to
 4     depend on commercials and such.  There are some
 5     terrible -- and everybody agrees with me that I have
 6     asked about those.
 7  74                   THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 8  75                   MS WADEPOOL:  Thank you.
 9  76                   MS PINSKY:  Thank you.  I would ask
10     next Ann Pedersen.
11     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
12  77                   MS PEDERSEN:  Hello.  I'm
13     Ann Pedersen.
14  78                   CBC radio and television have been
15     part of my life for as long as I can remember.  I grew
16     up watching Disneyland, Don Messers Jubilee,
17     Tommy Hunter and Hockey Night in Canada.  I cut my real
18     adult teeth listening to Peter Gzowski This Country in
19     the Morning during my post-secondary education years.
20  79                   For a few years I tried out all of
21     the other stations on radio and TV, but soon found that
22     they did not have much to offer but the same 10 songs
23     or the same situations/role played out on every sitcom
24     imaginable.  I came back to the CBC.
25  80                   When my children were small I again
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 1     enjoyed Peter Gzowski, this time on Morningside.  Today
 2     I have CBC Radio One on all day at home and in my
 3     vehicle.  I listen to Information Radio with
 4     Terry MacLeod, This Morning with Avril Benoit and
 5     Michael Enright; Radio Noon with Susan Magus (ph);
 6     Questionnaire with Donald Benam (ph); The Roundup with
 7     Bill Richardson, and The Afternoon Edition with Maureen
 8     Pendergast (ph).
 9  81                   In the evening and on weekends, I
10     often tune into such programs as As It Happens with
11     Barbara Bud and Mary-Lou Finlay (ph); Ideas with Lister
12     Sinclair; DNTO or Definitely Not the Opera with Nora
13     Young; and Quirks & Quarks with Bob MacDonald (ph).  No
14     other radio station can provide the kind of enjoyment
15     and information I get from CBC.
16  82                   CBC television offers excellent
17     programming too.  Comedy in the forms of Red Green,
18     This Hour Has 22 Minutes and Comics.  Documentaries
19     like Witness and Life and Times; journalism programs
20     such as Fifth Estate, Market Place and Venture; and
21     science programs such as The Nature of Things.  In most
22     cases, these are family shows that we can all enjoy and
23     learn from.
24  83                   Lifelong learning is a term touted by
25     many organizations today.  Learning comes from many
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 1     different areas not just colleges and universities.  I
 2     am a firm believer in lifelong learning and the CBC,
 3     both radio and television, continue to be part of my
 4     university.
 5  84                   Thousands of other Canadians who are
 6     at home by choice or who cannot get out also enjoy this
 7     kind of learning opportunity.  It is our lifeline. 
 8     Where else could we learn about the great citizens of
 9     this country, some ordinary and some unique, all while
10     carrying out daily mundane but very necessary household
11     chores and the all important job of raising a healthy
12     family?
13  85                   The CBC strives not only to inform
14     and enlighten, but also to show a remarkable talent in
15     promoting Canadians who make a difference. It is to the
16     CBC's credit that I have learned more about Nunavut and
17     what it will mean to its people than from any other
18     news source.
19  86                   Issues affecting local farmers and
20     communities are presented in a fashion that is easily
21     understood by anyone.
22  87                   Canadian superstars and local heroes
23     of many walks of life are all highlighted on CBC.
24  88                   Political pundits and analysts,
25     newspaper editors, the many volunteers of this great
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 1     country, musicians and artists ranging from those just
 2     breaking onto their respective scenes to those who have
 3     made it big, sports achievements and failures, and just
 4     average Canadians are featured daily on CBC radio and
 5     television.  I can't get that anywhere else.
 6  89                   As a national public broadcaster, CBC
 7     is able to inform me of the issues that affect each
 8     area of the country and why they are important, both to
 9     the local people and to me.  They do this in a timely
10     manner.
11  90                   Coverage of the ice storm in eastern
12     Canada and the flood of the century in Manitoba are two
13     excellent examples of how CBC fulfils its role as a
14     national public broadcaster.  Many people who never
15     tuned to CBC before were getting essential information
16     from the CBC during the flood.
17  91                   Too much emphasis is being placed on
18     the new millennium.  The Year 2000, or Y2K as computer
19     buffs like to call it, is just a number like all other
20     years, the only difference there will be could be due
21     to computers.  It will arrive much like others and end
22     similarly.  It's only fanfare will be human made.
23  92                   Should the CBC fulfil its role in a
24     different manner than it has in the past?  The answer
25     is an unequivocal no.
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 1  93                   The CBC is a continually evolving
 2     institution that fulfils its role as a national public
 3     broadcaster by dropping that which doesn't work and
 4     innovating ways to present new items often into
 5     existing programming.  The one thing that has held them
 6     back is continual cuts in funding.  This funding must
 7     be restored.
 8  94                   The CBC serves the public regionally
 9     here very well.  Information Radio, Radio Noon and The
10     Afternoon Edition, all on the radio, provide
11     programming and information that keep me up to date on
12     regional events and issues as well as items of national
13     interest.  The 24 Hours news program on CBC television
14     also provides excellent local, regional and national
15     coverage.
16  95                   The CBC has always been different in
17     what it provides to its audience.  Its programming can
18     generally be watched by or listened to by people of all
19     ages.  It has a tendency toward family-oriented viewing
20     and listening, a trend on which I expect to continue to
21     rely.  Other Canadian television stations seem to
22     believe that sex and/or violence needs to pervade every
23     aspect of viewing regardless of the time of day or
24     evening.  Thankfully, the CBC does not share that
25     belief.
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 1  96                   Please allow the CBC to continue
 2     their high quality broadcasting.
 3  97                   I believe that presentation of
 4     Canadian programming should be done not just because
 5     its Canadian but because it is good quality
 6     programming.  We as Canadians have proven to the world
 7     that we are capable of producing news, entertainment,
 8     documentaries, series, sports, comedy and journalism
 9     that can not only compete, but is actually in demand in
10     other countries.
11  98                   CBC radio and television present
12     programming that is not only entertaining, it is often
13     thought provoking and easily becomes the basis for
14     future discussion on a wide variety of topics that no
15     other broadcaster can boast.  It is this discussion
16     that can keep us together as a people and a country for
17     without discussion there is no understanding.  Where
18     there is no understanding there is no tolerance. 
19     Without tolerance we grow apart and learn hatred.
20  99                   Canadians are a diverse people,
21     originating from points all over the globe.  This
22     diversity in origins and culture has caused us to be
23     the most inventive nation in the world.  We are able to
24     learn and cull from the best of all cultures and thus
25     become the United Nations number one place to live.
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 1  100                  The CBC has been the very fabric that
 2     brings Canadians of all cultures and origins together
 3     in one facet or another.  I urge the CRTC to restore
 4     funding to previous levels and to allow the CBC to
 5     continue to fulfil its natural role in Canada, that of
 6     public educator.
 7  101                  Thank you.
 8     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 9  102                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
10     Ms Pedersen.
11  103                  My notes here say you come from
12     Springstein (ph).
13  104                  MS PEDERSEN:  That's correct.
14  105                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  And where is that?
15  106                  MS PEDERSEN:  Springstein is just
16     outside the city, about a 15-20 minute drive.
17  107                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
18  108                  MS PINSKY:  I will ask Roy Benson to
19     be the next presenter, please.
20     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
21  109                  MR. BENSON:  Thank you very much.
22  110                  I don't think that I will probably
23     use up my full 10 minutes, but one never knows.
24  111                  I do have a few things that I'm glad
25     to have the opportunity to say.  One of them is that
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 1     man and boy for awhile -- I'll tell you, over 50
 2     years -- I have listened to and enjoyed the CBC.  I
 3     find nothing wrong with it that I can be critical of. 
 4     From time to time it produces a program that doesn't 
 5     particularly interest me.  But that's all right, it
 6     interests someone else and that's fine.  We all have
 7     something for all of us on the CBC.
 8  112                  I have been very distressed over the
 9     last decade or so at the incessant cuts in funding that
10     the CBC has received from Ottawa and I would request
11     that the CRTC do all of the lobbying that they are able
12     to encourage the federal government to restore the CBC
13     enough money so they can do the job that they did
14     before and indeed restore all of that funding and more.
15  113                  We cannot get too much of the
16     excellent service the CBC has always provided us.
17  114                  One of the ladies speaking earlier
18     referred to the cacophony of sound that we get out of
19     the other stations and I must admit that 25 years ago I
20     would sometimes listen to another station for its news
21     or something on my way to work, and I stopped that
22     because I realized the others had nothing on them
23     whatsoever except noise and news and they simply
24     weren't worth wasting my time on.
25  115                  I would make another suggestion
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                             23

 1     vis-à-vis CBC television.  To that I would draw your
 2     attention that CBC radio enjoys the opportunity to
 3     operate without those stupid, stupid commercials.  You
 4     know, you have to have a brain that's not more than
 5     three years' old for some of them, and even then I
 6     think they are insulting.
 7  116                  Is it possible that the CRTC could
 8     enact some sort of limitation on the private
 9     broadcasting networks that they do not repeatedly
10     insult our intelligence with commercials that are
11     intensely offensive?
12  117                  At times at home my wife reproves me
13     because I have developed a habit of answering back to
14     them.  She threatens to record it, but I don't think
15     she will ever play what I say publicly.  I would just
16     as soon she didn't.
17  118                  But to your first question -- oh, one
18     more comment.  I would like to say that, as far as I
19     can recall, I fully endorse and agree with absolutely
20     everything the lady preceding me had to say.  I think
21     it was very, very to the point, very well thought
22     through and very eloquently presented.
23  119                  I'm retired so I feel no particular
24     onus on me to think things through very carefully or
25     arrange them or present them particularly well.  I have
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 1     a tendency to let them just sort of roll out as they
 2     come.  I don't ever want to hurt anyone's feelings, but
 3     I don't care if you like it or not.  I no longer am
 4     being paid, so therefore I will do it as I see fit. 
 5     Well, I get a pension, but they can't do anything with
 6     it.
 7  120                  On your first question about how well
 8     the CBC fulfils its role as a national public
 9     broadcaster, I think it does that excellently, as some
10     of you may have inferred by my comments.
11  121                  I feel that in the new millennium the
12     CBC -- actually, the new millennium, you know, doesn't
13     make any difference.  What we are really talking about
14     there, if you use those words correctly, is the next
15     thousand years, and I for one am not prepared to make
16     solid recommendations as to what the CBC should do over
17     the next thousand years.  The next four or five
18     perhaps, the next 10, but even I have a limited life
19     expectancy.
20  122                  At any rate, I feel that in the
21     immediate future, as long as I'm alive, the CBC should
22     continue to improve its services as it has improved
23     them over the many years in the past.  I think they are
24     superb.  There is no private sector broadcasting
25     station, either radio or television, that is fit to be
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 1     in the same room with the CBC.  They are just a blight
 2     on the face of the airwaves.  I worry for the radios
 3     and TV sets that have to receive them.
 4  123                  Indeed, one of Winnipeg's most
 5     popular talkers is a good acquaintance of mine.  I
 6     commented to him once that when his program was on in
 7     our house -- and I never leave a radio running unless I
 8     listen to it, I turn them off if I'm not.  I like to
 9     think.  I said "When your program is on I'm not able to
10     think.  I can't marshal any thoughts.  It's like a
11     mental anaesthetic."  His reply was interesting.  I had
12     suspected it, but he confirmed it.  He looked very
13     pleased and said "That's just what it is supposed to
14     be."  I was surprised that he was dumb enough to tell
15     me, but he was.
16  124                  I will go on now.  I musn't wobble
17     too far.
18  125                  How well does the CBC serve the
19     public on a regional as well as a national level?  I
20     would say extremely well.  But to try to answer that
21     question I have got to have something with which to
22     compare it, and I have never encountered anything to
23     which the CBC is comparable.  As far as I'm concerned,
24     it provides the best possible regional and national
25     coverage.
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 1  126                  I do wish that there was a bit more
 2     funding.  I wish we hadn't closed those three network
 3     outposts, the one in South Africa, because I find it
 4     rather pleasant and very interesting to get my news by
 5     satellite direct from a Canadian.  We don't have to
 6     hire Americans to do everything, you know.
 7  127                  I think that regionally, well, I
 8     don't know how they could do it much better without
 9     spending a lot more money.  On that note, I would
10     suggest, come back to the suggestion, let us please
11     restore the CBC funding.  Let us please increase the
12     CBC funding.  And if you want more taxes from me, we
13     are not wealthy, but I am perfectly willing to kick in
14     extra money in my taxes to support an enriched, more
15     vibrant CBC.  The CBC adds considerably to our quality
16     of life and I am perfectly willing to pay for it, not
17     just willing but anxious.
18  128                  Your next question is:
19                            "Should the programming provided
20                            by the CBC be different from
21                            other broadcasters?"  (As read)
22  129                  Well, it certainly is.  It is that
23     way already, so it isn't a question of whether it ought
24     to be.  It is.  It has some coherent intelligence in
25     it.
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 1  130                  Think about some of the CBC programs
 2     that are presented.  Where are you going to find
 3     Wayne Ronstad on any other national or private station? 
 4     I thought so.  Nowhere.  Nobody is going to do that,
 5     yet that's an important thing.  I think that we tend to
 6     forget that programs like Ronstad's, programs like
 7     Hockey Night in Canada, programs of infinite number are
 8     an integral part of the glue that holds Canada
 9     together.
10  131                  We learn about each other.  We learn
11     about our ethnicity and we find out that whether you
12     are a united empire loyalist descendant as I am, or
13     whether you have emigrated to this country in the last
14     five or ten years, you are not very different.  There
15     are far, far more commonalities than there are
16     differences, and we learn that through the CBC.
17  132                  But there is no one else that
18     presumes to even try to do such a thing, and we need
19     this cohesion.  We need it.  If we don't do something
20     to enhance it, we are going to lose the country because
21     when we lose an awareness, an understanding of each
22     other, and a tolerance and a respect for each other's
23     customs and ways, when we lose that, what will Canada
24     be then?  We will be nothing.
25  133                  We are heading that way quickly.  We
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 1     have already turned over most of our economy to the
 2     Americans.  One would wonder where our legislators get
 3     their plans.  There are some parties in the House of
 4     Commons who sound as if they have been speaking to
 5     Gerry Fulwell (ph) in the United States or alternately
 6     you did go down to have conferences with
 7     Newt Gingrintch (ph).
 8  134                  We have to do better than that,
 9     because such policies will leave us without any
10     country.  We will be some sort of satellite
11     second-class citizens attached loosely to the United
12     States.
13  135                  We find now in our dispute with
14     magazines that the Americans are prepared to attack us
15     over steel, softwood lumber, cattle, all sorts of
16     things.  When are we going to ever stand up to the
17     Americans again and tell them "No.  Do what you like
18     and we will too."
19  136                  I like Americans fine individually,
20     but their government exasperates me.  Our government's
21     unwillingness to demonstrate Canadian sovereignty and
22     Canadian control of Canada is intolerable.  One of the
23     vehicles with which we learn of these nefarious goings
24     on is, without doubt, the superlatively good CBC news
25     reporting.  Now, I didn't say perfect.  It's not, but
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                             29

 1     it's damn close.
 2  137                  I would also like to comment on a
 3     different topic, package programming.  That's a very
 4     secondary concern to my wife and I.  Our children are
 5     grown and gone and we sold our house and moved into the
 6     country.  We didn't find it necessary for four or five
 7     months, until our son came home, to have a television
 8     set at all.  We found we were getting perfectly good
 9     service from CBC radio, but he did want to watch hockey
10     games.  He seems to be unable to live without them.
11  138                  Also, why is it that of the channels
12     we are able to get, and I live a mile north of the town
13     of Selkirk, the CBC is the poorest reception of all?  I
14     can get three other channels perfectly, but the CBC
15     channel is the one that is poor.  Why is that?
16  139                  And as CRTC people, could I also draw
17     to your attention what I believe has been the law for,
18     oh, I should think 40 or 50 years, and that is that it
19     has been illegal I believe to increase the transmission
20     power of the transmitters during commercials.  Well,
21     why don't you enforce that law?  You have the rules, I
22     believe.  Why is it that when I'm watching radio or
23     television, I can be watching a program perfectly
24     pleasant, perfectly agreeable, and boy suddenly there
25     is a commercial break and it comes booming out and
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                             30

 1     knocks my head off?  I have to look around for the
 2     remote control as my wife sometimes swipes it, and turn
 3     it down, and then I have to turn it up.  Worst yet,
 4     ours is an old television and I often have to bang it
 5     hard on the arm of the chair to make it work, and I
 6     shouldn't have to do this.
 7  140                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Benson, could
 8     you sort of --
 9  141                  MR. BENSON:  I will draw to an end,
10     then, difficult as it may be.
11  142                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I understand your
12     concerns.
13  143                  MR. BENSON:  You see, I'm a retired
14     teacher, and once I have begun, it's difficult to stop.
15  144                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We need to bring in
16     a school bell.  Is that what --
17  145                  MR. BENSON:  Well, that would
18     probably work, but I'm afraid you will have to have an
19     electric buzzer.  We have conditioned the children
20     differently.
21  146                  I just made a few notes.  I would
22     also like to point out the uniqueness of the programs
23     and the people that we find and that we have found on
24     radio and TV for all these years.  Last night I though
25     I made a bit of a note of them and somewhere it will
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 1     be.  I will find it here.
 2  147                  But I would like to ask you a
 3     question.  What plans have you got to regulate computer
 4     animation that allows technicians to make dead human
 5     beings or live ones walk, talk and move as if they are
 6     perfectly normally alive?  And if this is not a
 7     problem, you tell me how we can ever believe anything
 8     we see or hear over TV?
 9  148                  I would comment again, all of us saw
10     the American moon landing, and we saw the man climb out
11     of the spaceship and onto the moon, didn't we?  We
12     heard him speak, didn't we?  Are you sure?
13  149                  I have seen a damn sight more skilful
14     and complex special effects in movies than that.  Now,
15     I'm not throwing doubt on that.  I believe it happened. 
16     But if we are going to have manipulation of that sort,
17     well, what are we going to do to control it?  We can
18     have Mr. Chrétien say anything that anybody wants him
19     to say, and there are a miscellany of people who would
20     like him to say numerous things.
21  150                  Well, I'll stop with that.  But I
22     would like to say just the names of a few programs, and
23     I seem to be losing them.  No, no, I have them.  Here
24     they are.
25  151                  Where else but on the CBC are you
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 1     going to find individualists, colourful, articulate,
 2     intelligent individuals like Rex Murphy?  Where do you
 3     find anyone like the deceased J. Frank Willis (ph),
 4     there may be some of you old enough to remember him, I
 5     certainly do; and our own Bill Guest (ph) here in
 6     Winnipeg, a fine man at the mike; Stanley Burke (ph);
 7     Earl Cameron; Max Ferguson; Alan McFee (ph)?  Where are
 8     you going to get people like that if you don't get them
 9     on the CBC?  Do we want to do without them?  I sure
10     don't.  I want them.  I want them on my radio.  I want
11     them on my television because they are the spice that
12     makes us live and living worthwhile.
13  152                  In conclusion, and honestly I will
14     stop this time, remember that the CBC is an integral
15     part of our culture.  We have so much difficulty in
16     defining ourselves as Canadians.  But, you know, a
17     definition of a Canadian isn't always the same in all
18     parts of Canada.  The people in Newfoundland seem to
19     have very colourful and entertainingly different
20     cultural edges than we do and we find them delightful
21     to listen to.  Where do you find politics like you find
22     them in British Columbia, where they have a premier
23     that they want to resign even though he has done
24     nothing wrong, et cetera, et cetera, no charges, no
25     fault or anything?
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 1  153                  Now, we have to rely on honest,
 2     national networking to tell us about each other so we
 3     can learn what we are like and learn to accept and be
 4     glad of each other.  The most potent force for that is
 5     what Peter Gzowski used to refer to as the ministry of
 6     truth.
 7  154                  With that I will stop.  Thank you
 8     very much.
 9  155                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
10     Mr. Benson.
11  156                  MS PINSKY:  Bill Harrison is the next
12     presenter.
13     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14  157                  MR. HARRISON:  I'm happy to be here
15     because this seems to be Canada at work.  I want to
16     thank the CRTC for giving us this opportunity.  This is
17     our free country and let's just keep it that way, and I
18     think the CBC has a role in doing it.
19  158                  Anyway, good day.  My name is
20     Bill Harrison.  I live in rural Manitoba, about
21     80 miles southwest of Winnipeg.
22  159                  I and many of my neighbours and
23     friends listen to CBC Radio One and Two around the
24     clock.  We view the CBC as Canada's community network,
25     our national neighbourhood connector.  We depend on the
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 1     CBC for news, information, entertainment, cultural
 2     reporting and participatory talk shows, a Canadian
 3     dialogue.  It is reassuring to hear from fellow
 4     citizens across the country and even American
 5     neighbours calling in to voice their opinions on topics
 6     we are concerned about collectively.
 7  160                  So already we have a local, national
 8     and even an international sharing just from CBC radio.
 9  161                  My television experience, however, is
10     quite limited, but I do feel it is very important to
11     maintain a national public TV broadcaster as well.
12  162                  CBC media must be given a stronger
13     and a broader mandate to serve our national public
14     interest.  We must stop a commercial media monopoly
15     from moulding us into simple-minded consumers.  We need
16     the CBC to be Canada's watchdog, providing a public
17     forum for us to constantly re-examine ourselves and the
18     world around us.
19  163                  Knowledge is power, it was said
20     before, and the power must belong to the people.  In
21     order to ensure this is done creatively, effectively
22     and responsibly, it must be given more funding.  The
23     crippling cuts done by the last two federal governments
24     must be stopped now.  The CRTC must remember the
25     airways are as free as the air we breathe.
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 1  164                  Foreign bureaus, such as the one in
 2     Mexico City, should be re-established and in fact more
 3     bureaus opened worldwide.  If we want to prevent a
 4     Kosovo-type situation in Canada or elsewhere, we need a
 5     strong public broadcaster at arm's length from the
 6     government.  A healthy CBC can help foster our sense of
 7     Canadian identity and unity, a securely funded CBC can
 8     inform, educate and even entertain its listeners and
 9     viewers.
10  165                  The wishes of self-serving right-wing
11     politicians in this country who want the CBC abolished
12     must be resisted.  The freedom we have and cherish to
13     speak freely in this country is the freedom we take,
14     the freedom we must guarantee ourselves to a strong
15     public national voice, a strong public media, a strong
16     CBC.
17  166                  That's as much as I have to say.
18  167                  Thanks very much.
19     --- Applause / Applaudissement
20  168                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
21     Mr. Harrison.
22  169                  MS PINSKY:  Carl Ridd is the next
23     presenter.
24     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
25  170                  MR. RIDD:  My name is Carl Ridd.  I
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 1     am a retired professor of religious studies from the
 2     University of Winnipeg.  My favourite self-description
 3     for myself and all of us is "citizen".
 4  171                  Before I say my own remarks, I would
 5     like to say how much I concur with most of what I have
 6     heard before, beginning with Ann Pedersen particularly
 7     and following on through.  I'm very relieved that so
 8     much ground has been covered by them so that I don't
 9     have to say any of that, and can instead go on to the
10     things I particularly want to say and that I maybe
11     haven't heard from them or others yet.
12  172                  First, I would like to answer your
13     questions very swiftly.
14  173                  In my view, how well does the CBC
15     fulfil its role as the national public broadcaster? 
16     Increasingly poorly.  I will come back to that.
17  174                  In the new millennium -- and I, too,
18     noted what Roy Benson had, the new millennium, the
19     thousand years idea.  It seemed to me that that phrase
20     therefore was a glib and catchy phrase and typical of
21     the sort of thing I don't want to get from any of my
22     broadcasters.  We are all into this "in the new
23     millennium", this sort of vague, catchy phrase that
24     prevents thought.
25  175                  Should it fulfil its role in a
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                             37

 1     different manner than it has in the past?  No, though
 2     it will evolve I hope over time, as one of the earlier
 3     speakers said.
 4  176                  How well does the CBC serve the
 5     public on a regional as well as a national level? 
 6     Well, reasonably well.  Better than practically anyone
 7     else, obviously.  But it does so by cutting services
 8     rather than regions.
 9  177                  Yes, you have kept your regions
10     because politically that would be very unpopular
11     with -- I shouldn't speak to you people as though you
12     had done this.  The CBC, though, had made the decision
13     to cut services, and I will come back to that, rather
14     than regions because it would be perceived as being not
15     in the best preference of the government, its funder.
16  178                  I think that's why the strikes are on
17     right now.  I mean, I'm not close to anyone in these
18     strikes, but I take it that one of the things that is
19     happening is that services are being cut and therefore
20     the quality of the CBC -- which is exceptional, I want
21     to say again and again, in the beginning, but is less
22     and less so -- that's where we citizens are paying the
23     price of keeping the regions, as I see it, from my
24     distance.
25  179                  Should the programming provided by
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 1     CBC radio and television be different from that
 2     provided by other broadcasters?  Yes, emphatically.  If
 3     so, what should these differences be?  Well, very
 4     briefly, I want Canadian content and above all a
 5     Canadian view of reality.  I want to see the world from
 6     what I hope to be, wish to be, the Canadian
 7     perspective.  I think many of us could define that and
 8     probably in different ways, but I don't want some
 9     homogenized view.  I want that which is Canada at its
10     best.  That the CBC has, for me, in all the years of my
11     attention to it and listening to it, done better than
12     anything else.
13  180                  I want secondly what I will call
14     investigative journalism and critical journalism.  I
15     don't mean critical in the sense of carping and
16     complaining.  I mean critical in the sense of asking
17     the sorts of questions that the purveyors of
18     information or facts or deeds don't necessarily want to
19     have asked.  How often have we in this room sat there
20     hearing somebody put out a viewpoint and wishing that
21     the interviewer would ask them whatever it is.  You get
22     that from the CBC a way more than you get it from
23     anyone else, and I want that.  I have to have that. 
24     Our country has to have it.
25  181                  And I want it relatively free of
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 1     advertising.  I'm not one of these purists who has to
 2     have it completely so, but I don't want the government
 3     to get away with its funding cuts because all of a
 4     sudden the CBC is turning into that which is beholden
 5     to those who advertise in it.
 6  182                  I think I have, in those remarks,
 7     answered the final question you specifically asked:
 8                            "Is there a special role the CBC
 9                            should play in the presentation
10                            of Canadian programming?  If so,
11                            what is this role?"  (As read)
12  183                  Those are my quick answers to your
13     questions.
14  184                  I would like to spend the rest of my
15     time, which will be pretty brief I think, five minutes
16     or so, if you will give me that, to make my own
17     comments from my own point of view as a Canadian
18     citizen and comment, I intend to, on the process I
19     believe to be happening.  It may not be, but this is
20     what I perceive.
21  185                  I perceive, then, first off the
22     serious dilution and weakening of the CBC, both radio
23     and television since about 1985.
24  186                  There is more popular features, for
25     example, in the news programs, the sort of thing I say
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 1     disgustedly to my dear partner in life as we sit
 2     listening or watching "Another one of these
 3     man-bites-dog stories."  Features that can be prepared
 4     in advance.
 5  187                  Now, look there is nothing wrong with
 6     that under some conditions.  But in the news programs I
 7     look for news, not the kinds of features that could
 8     come up any time but are a nice filler and sort of
 9     serve a pop or entertainment function in that newscast. 
10     And I hate the glib and cheery little supposedly funny
11     anecdote that some of the newscasts end with.
12  188                  Now, look, the CBC is not the only
13     one guilty of that sort of thing either.  But the
14     transition or partial transition into entertainment
15     rather than news in what ought to be the news part of
16     the CBC I deplore.
17  189                  I see also a very serious diminution
18     in the research capacity of the CBC.  Whenever it
19     touches something that I know something about, for
20     example, nuclear issues or ecological issues or
21     economic issues or APEC, I often find that the
22     interviewer on the CBC doesn't know very much about
23     this and therefore can't ask the questions that I'm
24     wanting to hear asked, because we have this person
25     right here and a chance to ask them, and they don't
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 1     know enough to ask the right questions.
 2  190                  Yes, I phone in and say, you know,
 3     "Why didn't this or that get asked?"  Well, you know,
 4     "Make your point further up", and I do.  But the chance
 5     has been missed for all those other listeners who
 6     didn't know what questions to ask.  I'm sure there are
 7     many people sitting out there wanting to ask questions
 8     that I don't know how to ask and never even thought of. 
 9     But the research -- the background stuff that the
10     interviewer has got seems to me significantly and
11     visibly weaker than it once was.  There aren't as many
12     people employed to do that kind of rich preparation to
13     help the interview be that which educates us.
14  191                  The second point I would like to
15     make, I take it that there has been a -- I have come
16     here to use plain words and I come here with great
17     respect and hope in the CRTC.  I will come back to
18     that, too, as I end -- but I take there to have been
19     and to be right now an attack on the CBC by
20     governments.
21  192                  There has been I believe an attempt
22     to tame the CBC.  It began with the Mulroney
23     government.  I can't go back into that, but I think we
24     all remember how much the Mulroney people hated the
25     CBC.  I think the Chrétien government hates them
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 1     equally.  Maybe all governments would hate any critical
 2     and investigative kind of journalism.  I think if I
 3     were in government I wouldn't much like them in many
 4     respects and I would be anxious to have them tamed,
 5     maybe not absolutely if I retained any of my citizen
 6     faculties.  I say this with some respect for our
 7     governors, some respect, but pleading with you people
 8     that that not become that which limits and governs this
 9     precious medium.
10  193                  So there have been these funding
11     cuts.  It's an excellent way of taming, because you
12     don't have the research capacity and blah, blah, blah,
13     blah.  Therefore, you function more by press releases
14     and handouts by the opinions of the opinion moulders of
15     society, and so on and so forth, and everything goes
16     along more smoothly.  The boat is not as much rocked. 
17     I take it that CBC, among others, and the Prime
18     Minister's office as well, is busy persecuting
19     Terry Milewski as a way of showing that it's really not
20     that bad and that it's sort of with the government in
21     this.
22  194                  Now, look, I don't think there has
23     been any collusion between the government and the CBC
24     brass over this but, you know, I can't go into the
25     detail of that whole story, which I know pretty well,
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 1     not from within the CBC but from a number of other
 2     sources, and that's what I take to illustrate.  The
 3     government wants, then, mainstream and what government
 4     wouldn't.
 5  195                  I think we are in huge danger in this
 6     world and in Canada increasingly, and rapidly
 7     increasingly, of what John Ralston Saul called
 8     corporatism.  The kind of monolithic control of the
 9     mind.  Some of the people don't know how to think
10     otherwise.
11  196                  If I was a controller, I would want
12     control.  But I'm not, and I think democracy is that
13     which is willing -- that the public, that the citizens,
14     that the whole of the community should have its strong
15     role and voice and reality.  I am afraid that Canada is
16     becoming a corporation less than a country, and the CBC
17     is one huge, has been, one huge roadblock to that.  It
18     still is.  I want again and again to say how grateful I
19     am for what is left.
20  197                  Whenever I do phone the CBC about
21     something or other to inquire of or often to complain
22     "Why wasn't this angle brought out", in those
23     relatively few areas where I know something, I always
24     hit, I always hit infallibly intelligent and helpful
25     and co-operative people.  I am just amazed at the
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 1     talent that's still there.  Why haven't they bled off
 2     to higher salaries somewhere else?  So it is great
 3     stuff, but it's definitely getting weaker, in my view.
 4  198                  Third point, I think we see here a
 5     method.  Again, I'm not sure how explicit this method
 6     has been made to the controllers, but the method is you
 7     cut and then the quality of that which is cut has less
 8     value so there is going to be less energy to try and
 9     defend it because it is diminishing in value anyway.
10  199                  When I first heard you people were
11     coming I thought "I'm not going to be bothered."  I
12     couldn't live with that.  Finally, that's why I'm here,
13     because the thing had sunk down so much it was hard --
14     I used to belong -- I belonged in the beginning to the
15     friends of CBC, the Ian Morrison thing.  I haven't sent
16     them any money or done a darn thing in that for, I
17     don't know, three or four or five years, anywhere from
18     the first year on, because it didn't seem worth it. 
19     The thing was going to get ripped up anyway and I had
20     other battles to fight and I was fighting them and I
21     wasn't going to fight this one, but here I am saying a
22     small word.
23  200                  I think therefore that there is less
24     energy to defend it out there and this is exactly what
25     is wanted.  Since it's not serving very well and people
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 1     don't care as much about it, well, you can cut it some
 2     more.  You see the process.  It's a brilliant method. 
 3     It's a brilliant method, and I think it is pretty
 4     deliberate.
 5  201                  The final thing I have to say is
 6     really a question -- and I don't know whether you are
 7     wanting to answer this, you Commissioners.  I, again,
 8     respect your presence.  I'm grateful you exist.  I
 9     won't go on about it.  I mean, you and the CBC are
10     defending the things that are of value in life as I
11     experience it.  But I wonder whether you are able to
12     tell me and this room what role you have.
13  202                  I mean, you will go back and I
14     presume report the sorts of things you hear including
15     these pleas that funding cuts be restored, which is my
16     plea as well, but do you have the right to -- the
17     government is not exactly your master.  You are an
18     arm's-length body, I realize, but do you have the right
19     to take on the role of advocate?
20  203                  Are you able to answer that question
21     or is that something about which you should be
22     discretely silent?
23  204                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I prefer
24     discretion.
25  205                  MR. RIDD:  Okay.  Thank you.  I
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 1     thought probably you would, so I will leave it as a
 2     rhetorical question, you know, and end therewith.
 3  206                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Maybe I will ask
 4     Ms Pinsky, the lawyer, to sort of define our role a
 5     little for you.
 6  207                  Thank you, though, Mr. Ridd.
 7  208                  I will ask Carolyn.
 8  209                  MS PINSKY:  I think as
 9     Commissioner Cram mentioned in her opening remarks, we
10     will be conducting proceedings into the licence
11     renewals of the CBC.  In that capacity, the Commission
12     is not an advocate.  The Commission sits as a
13     regulatory body to determine the conditions that should
14     be imposed on the licence of the CBC.  The licences
15     that we are looking at are the TV networks, the radio
16     networks and Newsworld and RDI, and maybe some of the
17     regional television stations as well.  So it is more of
18     a regulatory body capacity.
19  210                  MR. RIDD:  Just a follow-up question,
20     then.  What about all the stuff you have heard for the
21     last 40 minutes or so?  I mean, how will that get
22     reported to -- well, to whom will it get reported? 
23     Does it get reported to the CBC?  Does it get reported
24     to the government; and, if so, how?
25  211                  MS PINSKY:  The purpose of these
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 1     microphones are to transcribe the proceedings.  The
 2     transcriptions of the proceedings will form part of the
 3     record of the hearing where we will be looking at the
 4     renewal of the licence terms.  So the input from the
 5     public will inform the private Crown as a Commission,
 6     one of the decision makers, in terms of the terms and
 7     conditions and the scope of the licence that should be
 8     accorded for the renewal term.
 9  212                  So in terms of -- this doesn't go to
10     the government because it is the CRTC, as you noted, as
11     an independent body and it will make its own decisions,
12     so it forms part of a public record upon which the
13     Commission then makes decisions.
14  213                  MR. RIDD:  Does the government have
15     access to this if they should seek it?
16  214                  MS PINSKY:  It's a public record,
17     yes.  As well, of course, the CBC is here represented
18     and they will have an opportunity to reply at the end
19     of the session if they wish, so of course they as well
20     have a full opportunity to review the record as well.
21  215                  MR. RIDD:  A final question.  Will
22     some official person or persons -- not person so much
23     as institutional representative be telling members of
24     the government -- I forget who the minister is
25     responsible for the CBC, but --
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 1     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
 2  216                  MR. RIDD:  It may be.  But anyway,
 3     will some officer be telling the requisite minister,
 4     the relevant minister, that this material which you are
 5     gathering from Canadians all across the country is
 6     something that she or he ought to hear?
 7  217                  I mean, we can write and say that,
 8     but it would have less authority I think than if you
 9     Commissioners or someone could make that point.
10  218                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Ridd, this is a
11     public forum and that's -- I mean, the whole idea is
12     that not only you tell us, but that your views are
13     publicly known, that we have the transcript, because
14     that forms part of the record of what we have heard and
15     what we consider in our decision.  But it's also public
16     for the reason that we at least have the greatest
17     exchange of ideas that are possible.
18  219                  I would be very surprised if the
19     public record were not at least referred to in any
20     final decision, and were not referred to or seen by,
21     say, the media and inevitably the government of the
22     day.
23  220                  MR. HARRISON:  Excuse me.  If we are
24     asking you or presenting here that many of us seem to
25     be suggesting that the CBC needs to have their funding
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 1     increased, if we are presenting that to you, is that
 2     something that you will be involved in?  Do you have
 3     any say in that or do you have any way of presenting
 4     that to the government or to the people who do decide?
 5  221                  I mean, are we just blowing air here
 6     or what?  I mean, maybe we shouldn't be here if we are
 7     asking for the CBC to be given more stable funding, you
 8     know.  Money is essential to keep the thing afloat.  I
 9     mean, it's a public broadcaster.  It doesn't get its
10     funding from commercial enterprises, at least the radio
11     doesn't.
12  222                  So I'm just wondering, are you the
13     people we should be talking to?
14  223                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We cannot tell
15     government and would not even purport to tell
16     government anything.  Our purpose is to find out if CBC
17     is following its mandate, if its fulfilling its
18     statutory mandate.  If it is not we will say that, or
19     if it is we will say it is.  That is the issue.
20  224                  But I would expect that in any
21     long-term decision by anybody the issue of funding
22     would be raised in these proceedings all along, because
23     that is what we have been hearing and I expect will be
24     hearing.  I don't think there is anything we can do to
25     ensure an increase in funding.
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 1  225                  MR. HARRISON:  Yes.  But you, as the
 2     CRTC, you recommend or you dictate to the media on what
 3     they can do on air, correct?  I mean, you set the
 4     guidelines, do you not?  I mean, there must be some
 5     guidelines.  We often hear the CRTC involved in making
 6     these comments in the media itself when, say,
 7     private -- I mean, who do we speak to?  I thought we
 8     spoke to you when we are concerned if the media was
 9     becoming too violent, say, television or whatever, we
10     thought there should be more children's programming.
11  226                  So, in a same sense, obviously,
12     economics drives a lot of this.  That's what I mean. 
13     Is the CRTC able to at least, if they are making
14     recommendations, let's say, the CBC, if they are not
15     doing what you consider is not their mandate, then --
16     or if they can't do their mandate because of funding,
17     can you say to the government or to yourselves, whoever
18     is going to grant this licence, "Well, gee, you need
19     this licence and you also need financing to do the job
20     that you are supposed to do"?
21     --- Off microphone / Sans microphone
22  227                  MR. HARRISON:  Someone has to say --
23     you know, I mean, you can't just do something without
24     money.  If they are cutting back and the CBC can't, you
25     know, perform their mandate because they are being cut,
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 1     their funding is cut, they can't do the same quality of
 2     shows or the same shows or the shows at all that they
 3     are doing, the programming they are supposed to be
 4     doing -- I mean, I think that's why so many of us are
 5     here.  We are concerned that the CBC is being watered
 6     down and, you know, we enjoy it.  We see it as a public
 7     media, a public voice, more than commercial radio.  You
 8     know, they are interested in profit.  The CBC isn't
 9     interested in profit, it has a mandate to inform and
10     provide a cultural forum for Canadians.
11  228                  I mean, we are here and we say we
12     want more funding.  So I would hope you could -- you
13     know, when you are making your recommendations to the
14     CBC, well, if they don't die while we are sitting here
15     talking about it, you know, I would hope that you would
16     make a recommendation that money, funding be restored,
17     at least to their formal levels before the Mulroney
18     government or actually -- I mean, with inflation now it
19     should be even greater.
20  229                  I'm saying, as a Canadian, I want
21     more media, public media.  The airwaves belong to us,
22     not to a private corporation.  You only grant them a
23     licence, but you still work for me and for these people
24     here, and that's the way I see it.  I would hope you
25     could help us.
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 1  230                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think I have said
 2     pretty well all I can say.  Thank you very much.  We do
 3     hear you.
 4  231                  MR. BENSON:  Could I ask a short
 5     question?
 6  232                  I'm not sure I understood.  Are you
 7     or are you not able to make a recommendation to
 8     government that CBC funding ought to be increased to
 9     meet its mandate?
10  233                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Our job is to renew
11     the licences of CBC.  We don't report to government. 
12     We renew licences.  So the question:  Is CBC meeting
13     its mandate?  If it is not meeting its mandate, what
14     can be done to make it better?  Those are the issues
15     that -- you have seen the four questions.
16  234                  MR. BENSON:  Yes.
17  235                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Those are the
18     issues that we can address.
19  236                  MR. BENSON:  Well, I must say in that
20     case that I think I agree with Mr. Ridd's first
21     intention that it's a waste of time to come here
22     because there is no problem with the CBC's mandate that
23     funding won't fix.  If funding is restored to the CBC,
24     they will meet and exceed their mandate as they have
25     always done.  If it isn't restored and if it is
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 1     diminished, they will not, and it will not matter what
 2     meetings like this say.
 3  237                  MR. RIDD:  Might I just add to that,
 4     and I won't make a big speech, and I know you need to
 5     get on so I'm sensitive to that.
 6  238                  But would there not be a way of you
 7     adding to whatever recommendation you make about
 8     licensing, and so on, some kind of footnote that may be
 9     to the effect of what in the last 10 minutes several of
10     us have tried to say about the funding, that this you
11     heard repeatedly and that it is relevant, therefore, to
12     the mandate and to what you are legitimately to rule
13     upon?
14  239                  I'm not asking that it be front and
15     centre.  I'm just saying, you know, in some fashion
16     getting the whole picture through, because otherwise we
17     die by having only a little technical corner of the
18     picture.
19  240                  MS PINSKY:  That request is now on
20     the public record and will be part of the record.
21  241                  I would just note that in terms of
22     the licence renewal, that hearing will be held in May. 
23     The proceeding for the licences hasn't yet begun, so
24     actually we are not sort of talking about the specific
25     licences right now.
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                             54

 1  242                  We are talking about the general
 2     mandate.  Certainly, all of the comments that have been
 3     presented have related to the types of programming, as
 4     I have heard it, that the presenters here and members
 5     of the public wish to -- that they rely on the CBC for
 6     and it is the programming that the CBC presents that
 7     the Commission will be looking at in the context of its
 8     licence renewal.
 9  243                  MS WADEPOOL:  Excuse me.  I'm sorry.
10  244                  MS PINSKY:  Yes?
11  245                  MS WADEPOOL:  It seems to me that I
12     heard our Chairperson say that this will probably be
13     presented to the government of the day.  Didn't you say
14     something to that effect.
15  246                  MS PINSKY:  No.  The record of this
16     proceeding will ultimately form part of the record of
17     the Commission for the purpose of the CBC's licence
18     renewal hearing.  The CBC will be applying for the
19     renewal of their licences and the CRTC Commissioners
20     will be examining those applications and will hold the
21     public hearing on those specific applications, and
22     that's the purpose of this public record.
23  247                  MS WADEPOOL:  But will our government
24     receive copies of this so that they will know what the
25     people want?
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 1  248                  MS PINSKY:  As we have noted, it's a
 2     matter of public record and I can't speak for
 3     government officials at the department.
 4  249                  MS WADEPOOL:  It's their option to
 5     look at it, then.  Okay.  Thank you.
 6  250                  MS PINSKY:  Perhaps I will call on
 7     the next presenter, just to ensure that everybody does
 8     have an opportunity to make their presentation.
 9  251                  The next presenter is Trish Masniuk.
10     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
11  252                  MS MASNIUK:  Hello.  I'm
12     Trish Masniuk, and I want to thank both the CRTC and
13     the CBC for the amount of time, energy and resources
14     that they are devoting to this, which I consider a
15     really vital question.
16  253                  Now, it's rare for me to speak out in
17     a national forum like this.  I do speak out quite a bit
18     on local issues, but I'm not a presentation groupie. 
19     It's my first time speaking before a CRTC hearing.  The
20     last time I remember feeling quite this passionate
21     about it, and I'm speaking here because I feel very
22     passionate about the issue of the CBC, was back when I
23     was in college and the B&B Commission was coming
24     through which, since that predates the Beatlemania and
25     Trudeaumania, gives you a bit of an idea of the
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 1     strength with which I feel what is going on, because I
 2     feel, with this, with the issue of CBC now, as with our
 3     need to bridge our solitudes back in the sixties, we
 4     are at a crossroads.
 5  254                  It is absolutely vital that we
 6     realize just how serious this question about the CBC is
 7     and the fact that you, as the CRTC, hold in your hands
 8     the power of dismantling the webwork, the network from
 9     high and low and across the country that really holds
10     us together.
11  255                  CBC has woven through the fabric of
12     our country and it has also woven through the fabric of
13     my life.  I am a CBC addict, self-admitted,
14     particularly radio, but CBC radio and television.  As a
15     young child growing up in Manitoba's Interlake we
16     didn't have electricity yet but we did have a
17     battery-powered set.  We would bring the car battery in
18     and hook it up and listen to it.
19  256                  Eventually we did have electricity
20     and there was a television that one of the families had
21     and all the other families went over to watch.  I have
22     to admit that when listening to Twilight Zone on that
23     flickering set or watching it, or listening to a radio
24     drama with the howling of the coyotes set a certain
25     standard for what I have looked for in terms of really
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 1     all-absorbing drama.
 2  257                  But CBC has brought a lot more than
 3     that to me.  It has brought the voices of my community
 4     and the communities from around the world to me.
 5  258                  When I moved out to the West Coast
 6     and then to Montreal, it kept me in touch with familiar
 7     voices because of the national character of the
 8     broadcasting.  As a grad student in the U.S. I looked
 9     forward to As It Happens to try to keep me anchored and
10     clued in to what was really happening, the kinds of
11     things that even with public television and public
12     radio down there we didn't get.
13  259                  I'm not sure how fully people who
14     have not lived outside Canada really realize just how
15     precious this resource that we take for granted is,
16     this voice that we take for granted.
17  260                  Right now as a person who lives in
18     the heart of the west end and is very much involved in
19     community development, I realize what a vital role the
20     local programming has played.
21  261                  I have also had a once-in-a-lifetime
22     experience.  I live in the Buen (ph) Peterson house,
23     the one with the icelandic murals that has emerged to
24     the attention of Winnipeg and the country, largely
25     through a local broadcaster here in Winnipeg, Meagan
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 1     Ketchison (ph), the local CBC traffic commentator.  Her
 2     interview at eight o'clock in the morning led to this
 3     once-in-a-lifetime experience.  Within 24 hours of
 4     being in colour on the front page of both major
 5     newspapers -- and unlike Lady Di or Mother Theresa, I
 6     didn't have to be dead yet or commit a major crime or
 7     anything, but it also helped me realize what the power
 8     of it was because, within hours, as well as the
 9     newspapers there was Reuters (ph) knocking on my door;
10     Mary-Lou Finlay from As It Happens was spreading the
11     word across the country.
12  262                  What that has done, both to my
13     research on that history but also to the perception of
14     the strength of our past in the west end and therefore
15     the power of our future, a neighbourhood that was
16     really under siege is extremely powerful -- I don't
17     know any other webwork of radio and television that
18     reaches from that grassroots to the national and
19     international level that could have captured things
20     like that and catapulted it from the local onto the
21     national and international scene.
22  263                  Now, from time to time I replay that
23     Mary-Lou Finlay tape in which she starts out saying
24     "Well, this is an ordinary house in an ordinary
25     neighbourhood" and I keep on saying to myself "Well,
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 1     Mary-Lou, not so ordinary house, not so ordinary
 2     neighbourhood."  And that's true with CBC, too, it's
 3     not so ordinary a network.  It's not like the other
 4     networks you are dealing with, the commercial networks. 
 5     This has a greater responsibility, a much greater
 6     power.
 7  264                  Now, what makes CBC different?  Part
 8     of it is what you stated before at the beginning of our
 9     discussion here:  its mandate of public service.  It's
10     also its English, French and other voices of diversity. 
11     It's the fact that it's in radio, television, Internet
12     and so many different forums.
13  265                  Also, that it not only broadcasts our
14     voice internationally but brings international voices
15     to us.  Being a person who is often up with the Late
16     Night Radio, I get a chance to hear all these many
17     voices from around the world on the overnight Radio One
18     programs.
19  266                  It weaves us together.  It's
20     something when I get together with good friends from
21     other parts of the country.  We have a common cultural
22     context in a way that we would not have other than CBC,
23     and it's really delightful to see my thirtyish son
24     having become a CBC addict as well.
25  267                  There are disappointments that I have
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 1     with the funding cutbacks.  There is no question of
 2     that.  But I see some real positives and one of them
 3     was the renewed commitment of CBC to regional and local
 4     programming by building a new and expanded building
 5     here in the heart of the country and in the heart of
 6     the inner city.
 7  268                  It is important, I think, for CRTC to
 8     support and to strengthen that regional reach
 9     throughout the country, because the number of licences
10     you choose to renew and where you renew them are really
11     vital in keeping that webwork alive.  It is not a bunch
12     of isolated stations.  It is a vital living creature, a
13     living body.
14  269                  The way I see the cutbacks which have
15     happened, yes, they have been hurting our programming
16     to a large extent, and I do hope that when you are
17     trying to evaluate whether its living up to its
18     mandate, you will, as the other presenters have asked
19     you, please look at how much has been in their control
20     and how much of it has been imposed on them by these
21     funding cuts.
22  270                  But you, as the CRTC, do have the
23     really essential power in terms of a licensing renewal
24     to maintain this high-to-low and this across-the-nation
25     structure.  The CBC has the responsibility of
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 1     allocating the resources its given responsibly to keep
 2     this alive and to keep this balance and diversity
 3     going.  There is no question that the losses of funding
 4     cutbacks, where we have a lost a whole number of the
 5     familiar and valued voices and the current labour
 6     dispute which is putting us in a very much of a
 7     withdrawal situation with respect to some of our
 8     favourite programs but is maybe making us realize just
 9     how important those programs are, is giving us an
10     opportunity to review and value what we have.
11  271                  But the important thing I think is to
12     recognize this network as a network, not just a
13     collection of stations.
14  272                  In closing, I would like to remind
15     all of us that it is our network.  At this local level
16     it is a local voice, it is an important element of our
17     national identity, it is an important element of our
18     international reputation, our reputation for fairness,
19     for diversity, of what makes us different from the U.S.
20  273                  As the CRTC and the CBC both try to
21     guide this network into the new millennium, I think it
22     is going to have to come out of a shared vision.  Now,
23     it is a tripod.  The funding does come from the
24     government, which is from somewhere else, but there is
25     an important element which CRTC has to play in terms of
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 1     defending the value of that to the country, to us as a
 2     country.
 3  274                  Through the funding, there is also
 4     the responsibility of providing fairness and balance of
 5     a full spectrum voice, and that is a voice through
 6     technology including looking at the new technologies
 7     and the Internet.  I don't know quite how they are
 8     going to be regulated.
 9  275                  I think, though, within all that, we
10     have to keep in mind that it is not possible to solve
11     funding problems by being unfair to individual workers,
12     whether that's younger workers who because they aren't
13     getting fair wages have to go off somewhere else, or
14     older workers who are given the golden handshake long
15     before they are ready to silence their voices and long
16     before we are ready to give up listening to the value
17     that their voices give to us.  It can't be done at the
18     cost of individual -- I mean, of regional needs, but
19     that also is a place where you, as the CRTC, have a
20     role in terms of the licences you grant.  It is also
21     important that the special sector voices be retained,
22     and that's one of the things that is most put at hazard
23     when there are funding cuts or when there are numbers
24     of outlet cuts.
25  276                  So somehow what we have to learn is
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 1     to find a way of adapting without cutting our
 2     hamstrings, without severing vital nerves, without
 3     chopping off limbs, and again that's where CRTC comes
 4     in, or cutting out the heart of the CBC.
 5  277                  One area that especially concerns me
 6     with respect to that is the reporting relationship of
 7     the head of the CBC, and I'm not sure if that's within
 8     the purview of the CRTC.  But if the leadership
 9     position within the CBC becomes something that is at
10     the whim of the government of the day rather than at
11     the service of the needs of the people of Canada,
12     something absolutely critical will have been damaged in
13     CBC.  The silence that will come from the fear of what
14     might happen to a career by allowing the diversity of
15     programming will hurt us at one fell swoop, far greater
16     than even the funding cuts, and we know how damaging
17     those have been.
18  278                  There has to be an independence, and
19     I do believe and hope that the CRTC would have a strong
20     voice within -- really clarifying how vital that is to
21     the ability to fulfil the mandate and who exactly the
22     CBC is responsible to.
23  279                  There was talk earlier about the
24     taming of the CBC.  I consider trying to put that as
25     a -- to politicize that appointment to be dismissable
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 1     at whim as being intimidation not just taming.
 2  280                  As a final note, one of the earlier
 3     commentators commented that the CBC might be the glue
 4     that holds our country together.  I see it as far more
 5     than that.  It is in fact like a seed catalogue, like a
 6     nursery that provides a warm and a nurturing climate
 7     for voices new and old and that scatters seeds through
 8     cross-fertilization of a hybrid that goes far beyond
 9     what we would ever imagine and that go far beyond the
10     borders of the CBC itself.
11  281                  If we lose that heritage seed
12     treasury, we have really lost a very, very great deal
13     as a nation and maybe we have lost so much that our
14     very survival may be put in jeopardy.  It's the seeds
15     for our future.
16  282                  Thank you.
17  283                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
18     Ms Masniuk.
19  284                  I am proposing that we would take a
20     short break, 10 to 15 minutes.  The other room is out
21     on break and you can probably hear them.  Then we would
22     resume at a quarter to 3:00.
23     --- Short recess at 1437 / Courte suspension à 1437
24     --- Upon resuming at 1451 / Reprise à 1451
25  285                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we could
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 1     reconvene.
 2  286                  We will be calling more people to
 3     come and sit at the table.  Those of you who have
 4     provided your presentation, you may be more comfortable
 5     now sitting in the other seating because we will be
 6     having another group of people around the table.
 7  287                  Ms Pinsky will call those
 8     individuals.
 9  288                  MS PINSKY:  In addition, to the three
10     remaining presenters from prior to the break, I will
11     ask Mary Hewitt-Smith please to come up; Jesse Vorst;
12     David Northcott; Cheryl Ashton; Gordon Toombs.
13  289                  MR. TOOMBS:  You called me before.
14  290                  MS PINSKY:  Yes.  I'm sorry.  You are
15     here.
16  291                  And Carol Vivier, please.
17     --- Short pause / Courte pause
18  292                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Just find yourself
19     a seat beside a microphone.
20  293                  MS PINSKY:  To accommodate schedules,
21     we will ask Mr. Jesse Vorst please to be the first
22     presenter this afternoon.
23     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
24  294                  MR. VORST:  Thank you very much.
25  295                  I appreciate that I'm given this
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 1     privilege not just of speaking here but also in moving
 2     up in the ranking.  I have to be back at work in about
 3     45 minutes and it's a long day starting at 7:30 this
 4     morning and we will finish by about 9:30, 10:00
 5     tonight.
 6  296                  I very much commend the CRTC for this
 7     exercise in consulted democracy.  I think it's a great
 8     event and I want to use the opportunity, by the way, to
 9     congratulate the CRTC decision to award a licence to
10     our aboriginal community.  I think it is a landmark in
11     Canadian broadcasting.
12  297                  Unfortunately, I have been unable to
13     write something.  Time is short and I will just make
14     some comments.  Later on I will quote from something
15     which I wrote at an earlier time.
16  298                  Let me explain just for the record
17     that I am what we normally call a New Canadian.  I came
18     here as a Centennial immigrant in 1967 during the
19     Pan-Am games.  I had heard those horrible stories about
20     North American broadcasting.  That's the only news that
21     filters into Europe from North America that is all
22     commercialized.
23  299                  Then I came to Winnipeg and I
24     discovered this absolutely marvellous agency called the
25     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and its French
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 1     division called Radio-Canada.  If there is one reason,
 2     I will be very frank about that, if there is one reason
 3     why I stayed in Canada, even though I came here only as
 4     almost an occasional employee, it was because of the
 5     CBC and because of Radio-Canada.  There is nothing
 6     anywhere in the world resembling this.
 7  300                  It is the institution that has taught
 8     me what it means to be a Canadian, has taught me what
 9     Canada is all about, what the people of Canada are all
10     about.  It simply has made an impression on me, unlike
11     anything else I have ever experienced.
12  301                  The CBC provides information to
13     Canadians from coast to coast to coast, and everything
14     in between.  Not just the little tidbits, not a story
15     about, you know, whose cat bit what dog, its the
16     substantive issues that are being covered by the CBC,
17     issues, events people.
18  302                  I teach economics and labour studies
19     at the University of Manitoba.  Only the CBC provides
20     in depth, adequate coverage in matters of economics. 
21     No other radio station, TV station or printed media
22     paid any attention to the collapse of the western
23     economy in the past 10 years.  Nobody talked about the
24     fallout of the demise of the Soviet Union except for
25     the CBC.
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 1  303                  Only the CBC provides adequate
 2     coverage of labour issues.  The poor are only heard on
 3     the CBC.  They are also being seen, I must say, on the
 4     Vision channel which I'm very grateful for that we have
 5     that on our local cable.
 6  304                  Adam Smith, the founder of capitalism
 7     as some people call it, Adam Smith warned us never to
 8     hand over education and culture to the marketplace
 9     because as Adam Smith says, when two business people
10     get together you can be assured that they are trying to
11     do the public out of something that belongs to the
12     public, and then of course only to fill their own
13     pockets.  Now, I'm using my words, not Adam Smith's
14     words, but you can look it up.
15  305                  About 12 years ago, 11 years ago, I
16     visited the old CBC building on Jarvis Street in
17     Toronto.  There I saw on the bulletin board pinned
18     something with the University of Manitoba logo, and
19     being very shortsighted of course I had to go and stand
20     very close, and I suddenly realized they had pinned up
21     something that I had written, that I had written and I
22     had sent earlier somewhere because people ask me for my
23     opinion.
24  306                  Actually, it started out when I sent
25     somebody an e-mail which has a signature, one of my
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 1     many signatures on the e-mail, that "Heaven is a folk
 2     festival".  I have been a folk festival supporter and
 3     volunteer for almost 20 years now.  Also, thanks to
 4     CBC, by the way, with Peter Gzowski of course being
 5     such an eminent host.  And somebody asked me:  If
 6     Heaven is a folk festival, what else are they doing
 7     there?  I said, "Well, they listen to the CBC", and we
 8     got to talk about it, and finally I wrote the following
 9     down, and it is old, it is a dozen years old:
10                            "In Heaven they eat with Motion
11                            in Music, RSVP or other CBC
12                            classical music programs.  Then
13                            they clean up and do the dishes
14                            with As It Happens.  They enrich
15                            the mind with Ideas, Quirks &
16                            Quarks and State of the Arts,
17                            they relax with Morningside,
18                            Simply Folk or Max Ferguson,
19                            they reminisce with The
20                            Transcontinental, Otto
21                            Lowie (ph) or Max Ferguson, they
22                            laugh with the Radio Show and
23                            the Royal Canadian Air Farce,
24                            they cry with Business World
25                            from sadness and with A Joyful
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 1                            Sound from happiness.  They
 2                            remain superbly informed as to
 3                            what's happening down there on
 4                            that good old Earth with World
 5                            Report, Canada at 5:00, The
 6                            World at 6:00, The Inside Track,
 7                            The Media File, The Medicine
 8                            Show, Sunday Morning, Cross
 9                            Country Checkup and The House,
10                            and they wonder up there in
11                            Heaven why anyone calling
12                            himself or herself a true
13                            Canadian would dare to cut the
14                            budget and destroy it all."  (As
15                            read)
16  307                  I wrote that, as I say, about a dozen
17     things ago.  Things haven't changed except that the
18     programming has become poorer.  Less money means less
19     freedom to develop new ideas.  Still the CBC has been
20     able to maintain its quality in terms of personnel.
21  308                  I do a lot of media work.  They call
22     me all the time, at least one interview a day, and it
23     always strikes me there are no better informed
24     journalists in this city, and indeed across the country
25     because I get calls from elsewhere too, no better
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 1     journalists than the CBC people.  They prepare.  They
 2     know what questions to ask and they actually use my
 3     material in a fair and unbiased manner.  I have never
 4     been misquoted on a CBC program, unlike some of the
 5     other printed media where it does occur.
 6  309                  Today I work 12 hours a day, six and
 7     a half days a week.  CBC is on all the time.  When it's
 8     something I do which allows me to listen to spoken
 9     word, there is plenty on the radio.  When I want to
10     hear the music just think of Saturdays, Pearls of
11     Wisdom, The Vinyl Cafe with that marvellous man Stuart
12     MacLean who succeeded so well our beloved late Clyde
13     Gilmor (ph), Sound Advice with Rick Phillips (ph), The
14     Collector's Corner, terrific programs.
15  310                  Where else in Canada do we get that? 
16     Nowhere, because the marketplace is not the place that
17     would propagate quality programming including quality
18     music, never mind quality exchange of information.
19  311                  Inside Track; where else do we get an
20     intelligent discussion on what is happening in sports? 
21     Writers and Company; Tapestry; of course As It Happens;
22     Ideas with Lister Sinclair, who by the way was the one
23     who pinned up my notice on that board in the old
24     building on Jarvis Street.
25  312                  Peter Gzowski could be very
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 1     irritating sometimes the way he spoke, the things he
 2     mentioned, but a little incident, and I will close with
 3     that, what happened years ago.  It was on Victoria Day
 4     when Peter Gzowski had on the show our own Maestro
 5     Tovie (ph), and Maestro Tovie said to Peter, he said
 6     "Gzowski, isn't that Polish?"  "Heavens, no", said
 7     Peter, "It's Canadian."
 8  313                  That's why I support the CBC.  It is
 9     a Canadian program.  It is not inward looking, but
10     looks out to the wild world.  It tells the world what
11     we are as Canadians and it tells Canadians what is
12     inside Canada and what is going on outside in the
13     world.  There is nothing like it anywhere.
14  314                  Please renew their licence and if you
15     have any influence with the government, please get them
16     the money they need to do the work they used to do
17     20 years ago so well.
18  315                  Thank you.
19     --- Applause / Applaudissement
20  316                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
21     Mr. Vorst.
22  317                  MR. VORST:  Okay.  My apologies, but
23     I have to leave for work.
24  318                  Thank you.
25  319                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Gordon Toombs.
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 1     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 2  320                  MR. TOOMBS:  Thank you for the
 3     opportunity.
 4  321                  I would like to start with question
 5     three:
 6                            "Should the programming of CBC
 7                            be different from other
 8                            broadcasters and what should
 9                            these differences be?" 
10                            (As read)
11  322                  We live in a commercial and a
12     business world where it is continually dinned in our
13     ears that the market is the measure of all things.  In
14     a consumer society everything becomes a commodity which
15     can be bought and sold.  In the airwaves, supply and
16     demand is determined by the largest number of
17     consumers, the largest audience, in other words, the
18     lowest common denominator.
19  323                  In preparation for this I consulted
20     the federal statute, the Broadcasting Act, and I have
21     discovered that it uses several very distinct clauses.
22  324                  The first one is a distinctive word
23     in describing the mandate of the CBC.  I quote:
24                            "...providing programming that
25                            reflects Canadian attitudes,
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 1                            opinions, ideas, values and
 2                            artistic creativity."  (As read)
 3  325                  And in another place:
 4                            "...reflecting the circumstances
 5                            and aspirations of Canadian men,
 6                            women and children."  (As read)
 7  326                  The role of the CBC is to be a
 8     reflector.  That's the key word "reflector".  It occurs
 9     several times.  That means that the founding
10     visionaries of our public broadcasting system saw it as
11     a disinterested party reflecting back to Canadians the
12     whole spectrum of what we are and what we are about.
13  327                  In the cacophony of the radio and TV
14     marketplace, the role of a disinterested reflector is
15     beyond price.  Private broadcasters have their place
16     and the social fabric of our nation is richer because
17     of them.  But as we all know in a free enterprise
18     system, the owner and the sponsor have the privilege of
19     putting their spin on whatever goes over the airways. 
20     The high cost of broadcasting being what it is, that
21     means that the public gets what the business elite can
22     pay for.
23  328                  The founders of the CBC long ago saw
24     the need for an alternative to the marketplace. 
25     Appealing to the lowest common denominator and the
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 1     biggest audience was not its reason for existing and
 2     it's even stated in the Act.  I quote:
 3                            "Alternative television
 4                            programming should be innovative
 5                            and be complementary to the
 6                            programming provided for mass
 7                            audiences."  (As read)
 8  329                  Part two of the question:  How should
 9     the CBC be different?  Because the Broadcasting Act
10     requires that it be different.
11  330                  I quote again:
12                            "...cater to tastes and
13                            interests not adequately
14                            provided for by the programming
15                            that is otherwise provided for
16                            mass audiences including
17                            programming devoted to culture
18                            and the arts and that reflect
19                            Canada's regions and
20                            multicultural nature." 
21                            (As read)
22  331                  One historical difference and one of
23     its main attractions has been the absence of
24     advertising and commercial sponsorship.  I protest the
25     CBC's growing dependence on commercials.  Surely, we
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 1     can have one channel of communication between ourselves
 2     which is independent of the marketplace.
 3  332                  Another difference, I and my friends
 4     like and support investigative journalism and
 5     consumer-oriented programs currently being broadcast
 6     and which have a sterling reputation.  Now, the private
 7     broadcasters will argue that they can do that as well
 8     as the CBC.
 9  333                  But may I remind you, Madam Chair,
10     what a conflict of interest it was for the Columbia
11     Broadcasting System a few years ago when they began to
12     do an investigative journalism on the tobacco companies
13     and what happened to them when they got caught between
14     one of their most lucrative sponsors.  This is
15     something the CBC can do.
16  334                  We also need more programs for
17     children, both educational and entertaining.  These
18     programs must continue without commercial sponsors for
19     young minds are exceedingly impressionable.  You may
20     recall that recently Sesame Street, the well-known
21     children's program in the United States has succumbed
22     to commercials.  Perhaps as Ralph Nader says, they
23     should change the name from Sesame Street to Huckster
24     Alley.
25  335                  Need I remind the Commission we have
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 1     children today who readily can identify a dozen or two
 2     dozen commercial logos, corporate logos, but they can't
 3     name six different species of trees or birds.  Is that
 4     what we want?
 5  336                  Another difference comes to mind and
 6     that is the CBC's tradition of high standards in the
 7     quality of programs offered, in the balance of
 8     information offered on matters of public interest, and
 9     in the use of the English language, good language and
10     pronunciation.
11  337                  Concerning sports programming, I am a
12     basic cable subscriber and have no interest in an all
13     sports channel.  I would appreciate some sports
14     coverage, but not six weeks of program interruptions
15     every spring by the National Hockey League finals.  It
16     is essential of course that events in which Canadian
17     athletes are competing be adequately covered.
18  338                  Another difference, and this refers
19     to question four, the special role of the CBC as the
20     national broadcaster.  I quote the Act again.  Quote:
21                            "...to provide a public service
22                            essential to the maintenance and
23                            enhancement of national identity
24                            and cultural sovereignty." 
25                            (As read)
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 1  339                  No private radio or channel exists to
 2     remind us of our history, provide independent coverage
 3     of all national events and to keep us aware of each
 4     other from sea to sea to sea.
 5  340                  Returning to question one:
 6                            "How well does the CBC fulfil
 7                            its role and what should happen
 8                            in the new millennium?" 
 9                            (As read)
10  341                  First of all, it cannot fulfil its
11     role as a national public broadcaster because of the
12     budget cutbacks which have been greater than for any
13     other Crown corporation.  The hostility of both the
14     Mulroney and Chrétien governments to the CBC is
15     evidence.  An acquaintance of mine who happens to be a
16     senator told me privately that the hidden agenda is to
17     save the CBC radio and proceed toward the privatization
18     of CBC TV.  It looks that way.
19  342                  The CBC cannot carry out its mandate
20     under the present financial restrictions.  The
21     shortwave service to the world was saved at the last
22     minute.  Now it's the correspondents in Africa and Asia
23     who cannot be maintained.  Even Lloyd Axworthy insists
24     that we need Canadian eyes and ears in key areas of the
25     world.
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 1  343                  In short, with 30 per cent of
 2     broadcast time now devoted to reruns, the CBC can
 3     neither do its job nor maintain its audience nor fulfil
 4     its mandate by Act of Parliament.
 5  344                  Part two, concerning the new
 6     millennium, faced with the rapidity of technological
 7     change, the many new channels, the declining TV
 8     audience across North America and the increasing number
 9     of citizens with the Internet service, I support the
10     expansion of CBC into digital broadcasting and the
11     worldwide web.
12  345                  By the way, the Broadcasting Act even
13     foresaw that long ago, decades ago.  I quote again.  It
14     said that the CBC should be:
15                            "...readily adaptable to
16                            scientific and technological
17                            change."  (As read)
18  346                  A brief answer on question two
19     concerning regional service.  The CBC did a better job
20     15 or 20 years ago than it is doing today with the
21     budget cuts.
22  347                  I would like to remind the Commission
23     of the original mandate again, quote:
24                            "...that it be predominantly and
25                            distinctively Canadian, that it
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 1                            reflect Canada and its regions
 2                            to national and regional
 3                            audiences while serving the
 4                            special needs of each
 5                            region." (As read)
 6  348                  The Act talks about:
 7                            "...a balance between local,
 8                            regional, national and
 9                            international sources." 
10                            (As read)
11  349                  And I'm quoting there:
12                            "This can only be achieved by
13                            adequate and active regional
14                            broadcast centres."  (As read)
15  350                  So in conclusion, Madam Chair, I
16     suggest that please renew the local CBC licence.  We
17     need it.
18  351                  From what we have heard today about
19     your role as a regulatory agency, I gather we are all
20     going to have to storm the doors of our Members of
21     Parliament if we are going to get any action.
22  352                  Thank you.
23     --- Applause / Applaudissement
24  353                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
25     Mr. Toombs.
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 1  354                  MS PINSKY:  Brian McLeod.
 2     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 3  355                  MR. McLEOD:  Brian McLeod is my name,
 4     and my discussion is as a private citizen commenting on
 5     how the local political scene is reported.
 6  356                  I would like to offer my opinion on
 7     the role CBC radio locally is playing today and the
 8     role I feel it should play.
 9  357                  Let me begin by saying I think the
10     people in Winnipeg are poorly served by the media, that
11     is by all media including radio, television and
12     newspapers.
13  358                  The media collectively in Winnipeg is
14     usually bland and superficial.  It does not know or
15     even care what the issues are.  They don't know what is
16     really going on in the community.  It is not prepared
17     to do any in-depth looking and reporting.  It only
18     pretends.
19  359                  It also is suggested here that the
20     performance of CBC radio on local issues is no better
21     nor any worse than any other media outlet.  There is a
22     vital role here in Winnipeg that is easily identified
23     that would allow CBC radio to function effectively if
24     taken to heart and really thought through.  It is my
25     thought that the Canadian Radio-television Commission
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 1     grants a broadcasting licence without any real
 2     examination of the role it is intended to fill, nor
 3     does it follow through on performance to see what is
 4     being done in the public interest.
 5  360                  Heaven forbid, it is not my intention
 6     that CBC radio should be told what to broadcast, but to
 7     say CBC radio can only make a real contribution to
 8     community affairs when it has carefully looked at the
 9     issues, this requires a lot of hard unremitting toil in
10     balance with the allocation of scarce resources to what
11     is important in news gathering.
12  361                  What is being referred to here is the
13     reporting of the local political process, that is, the
14     community committee system of government in place in
15     the City of Winnipeg.  It is at this level, basic
16     level, that decisions affecting the lives of thousands
17     and thousands of citizens is made and it is this level
18     that is poorly reported or ignored entirely.
19  362                  It has been said the business of
20     government is boring.  This is true, a lot of it is. 
21     It takes patience and dedication to learn the process
22     of the community committee level and it takes patience
23     and dedication to stick to it and report it in a lively
24     and relevant manner.  Of course it takes a management
25     that understands this.  The CRTC and CBC radio
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 1     management should certainly understand this.  The
 2     community committee system has been in Winnipeg since
 3     1972, that is, 27 years, waiting for the media to catch
 4     onto its role and importance.  It bears repeating.
 5  363                  Reporting the community committee is
 6     not glamorous and it would take a firm hand to see that
 7     the process is kept sight of day by day, week by week. 
 8     The community committee level is a most important step
 9     in the process and it is a direct connection between
10     citizens and the political process.  Citizens learn the
11     process when issues they are interested in are dealt
12     with and reported on and learn the valuable lesson that
13     they, too, can participate and indeed are encouraged to
14     do so.
15  364                  Over the years I have attended many
16     community committee meetings on traffic issues related
17     to our neighbourhood and have observed media interest
18     or rather the lack of it.  Through dozens of these
19     meetings I cannot recall once seeing CBC radio there
20     and, in fact, rarely any media at all.  Agendas are
21     always available, but they sit their unexamined by any
22     media and therefore the issues go unreported.
23  365                  I strongly suspect that somewhere in
24     the past a conscious or unconscious decision has been
25     made by CBC radio that attending community committee
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 1     meetings is not productive or rewarding and is unlikely
 2     to produce the level of excitement producers think the
 3     audience wants to hear.  The mundane rules here.
 4  366                  While my theory is unsupported by
 5     scientific evidence, I estimate, from many years of
 6     observation, that 50 per cent of taxes collected by the
 7     city are spent inefficiently.  This is largely because
 8     there is no media watchdog analysing and reporting, and
 9     much of this spending originates at the community
10     committee level.
11  367                  An example of poor reporting is the
12     Charleswood (ph) Bridge.  Prior to its construction in
13     1995, it was discussed many times at community
14     committee meetings.  Naturally, it was controversial. 
15     While it did receive some media attention, no real
16     in-depth analysis was ever done and reported on.  This
17     is unbelievable since this was a $30 million project.
18  368                  In a report prepared by traffic
19     engineers, it was stated that if the bridge stops at
20     Robin Boulevard and does not proceed to Grant Avenue
21     that the bridge should not be built because of traffic
22     levels local residential streets would experience. 
23     Politics prevailed.  The Province of Manitoba earmarked
24     $13 million and provided this amount to the City of
25     Winnipeg on the condition that it be used immediately
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 1     in bridge construction.  The city took the grant and
 2     the project stopped at Robin Boulevard.  This, despite
 3     evidence that local residential streets would be
 4     overwhelmed by bridge traffic.  The predicted volumes
 5     and problems the engineering report predicted are only
 6     too accurate.
 7  369                  Here was an issue crying out for real
 8     coverage and did not get it.
 9  370                  In 1996, with the first anniversary
10     of the bridge approaching, I had a call from CBC radio
11     seeking comments about the impact the bridge had on the
12     community.  I asked what treatment they were planning,
13     and just being disappointed with their answer turned
14     them down.  They called back with an expanded format
15     which went well.  Three local organizations have been
16     spontaneously formed to protest what traffic volumes
17     have done to this residential neighbourhood and they
18     approached CBC radio and were given very brief
19     interviews.
20  371                  With the second anniversary
21     approaching in 1997, and no relief by the city in
22     sight, I called CBC radio but got no response.
23  372                  Just as an aside, the City of
24     Winnipeg capital budget calls for construction of a
25     connection to Grant Avenue in 2002, but I would suggest
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 1     you not make plans to move to the neighbourhood until
 2     you see the connection in place.
 3  373                  A further example, in 1998, an
 4     application for rezoning was submitted to the city. 
 5     This would have resulted in smaller lot sizes. 
 6     Connecting roadways were planned that would have
 7     brought increased traffic.  One neighbourhood
 8     organization, realizing of course the already severe
 9     traffic burden generated on residential streets by the
10     bridge, urged local residents to attend the community
11     committee meeting that would hear the application. 
12     Ninety-three residents attended and naturally the
13     application was turned down.
14  374                  These are huge numbers concerning an
15     issue of real magnitude in the area.  Information
16     concerning this issue was available in the clerks
17     office in advance, but no media other than Metro One
18     thought it worthy of attention.  In fact, my opinion
19     from watching its performance over the years is I don't
20     think any of the media had a clue what was happening.
21  375                  What is needed of course is a
22     revolution in the way CBC reports local politics, that
23     is, develop a feel for it and give coverage a genuine
24     effort.  To quote Gor Vidal (ph):
25                            "Who collects what money from
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 1                            whom in order to spend on what
 2                            is all there is to politics and
 3                            should be the central
 4                            preoccupation of the
 5                            media."  (As read)
 6  376                  I think the CBC has a vital role to
 7     play in the lives of Canadians and this is a time for
 8     change and renewal.
 9  377                  Thank you for the opportunity to
10     prevent my views.
11  378                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
12     Mr. McLeod.
13  379                  MS PINSKY:  I will ask
14     Jamie Davidson.
15     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16  380                  MS DAVIDSON:  Thank you.
17  381                  The reason I have chosen to come and
18     speak to you today is because I'm afraid that the CRTC
19     and citizens of Canada might underestimate the
20     influence the CBC has on individual citizens.
21  382                  My reflections are highly personal
22     and mostly related to CBC radio.  Although having said
23     that, my initial reflections are on CBC television.
24  383                  In the mid-sixties, my first
25     recollection of CBC and the role it would play in my
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 1     life as a 10-year old, I saw two displays of compassion
 2     levelled at CBC.
 3  384                  I have vivid memories of my father
 4     lying on the couch either snoozing or watching
 5     television.  In his own living room he was very
 6     opinionated and very intolerant.  I recall when
 7     Festival -- I don't know if any of you recall that
 8     program when it came on -- my father levelled angry,
 9     inflammatory, derogatory remarks toward the
10     programming.
11  385                  My mother, on the other hand,
12     expresses an opposite picture.  She was a career woman
13     in the beginning of the late fifties -- her career
14     began, sorry, in the late fifties.  She was a curious
15     and compassionate woman.  She seldom watched
16     television.  However, surprisingly, she took an hour a
17     week to watch This Hour Has Seven Days with Lori
18     Lapierre (ph) and Patrick Watson.  As a child I felt
19     curiosity and respect for this program that warranted
20     my mother's undivided attention.
21  386                  In my formative years, at 18-years
22     old, living in Calgary with a group of people, I recall
23     the impact of As It Happens.  Alan Maitland was
24     penetrating a secret mercenary contact network located
25     in a pub in Ireland.  I didn't know what a mercenary
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 1     was.  At that point I realized that the world was much
 2     bigger than my limited horizon.
 3  387                  At 19, having left Calgary moving to
 4     Saskatoon, I recall one morning with Judy Lemarsh, Don
 5     Heron, and I'm afraid I don't remember the other
 6     participants, celebrating the end of Judy Lemarsh's
 7     stint in This Country In the Morning.  The sense of
 8     laughter and camaraderie delighted my 19-year old mind.
 9  388                  At 20, having moved back to Winnipeg,
10     As It Happens again thrilled me as I remember listening
11     to an interview with the President of Iceland regarding
12     the cod wars.  I was thrilled because this interview
13     was addressing a research paper that I was working on
14     at that point.
15  389                  Another move further west to
16     Lethbridge, continued contact with CBC radio and then a
17     move to Ottawa.
18  390                  Ottawa at 22.  My partner was newly
19     employed with Environment Canada and was off for three
20     weeks in the field the second day that we arrived in
21     the city.  Feeling that I had arrived at the other side
22     of this magnificent country but a side that was foreign
23     and in the beginning somewhat cold, I felt very much on
24     my own, unpacking boxes, no one to share the experience
25     of a new home or a new city.  I vividly recall moving
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 1     with despondence into our kitchen and turning on the
 2     radio.  As I rotated the tuning dial looking for
 3     something, for some satisfaction, Don Heron's voice
 4     filled my kitchen.  I wept.  I was no longer on my own. 
 5     I was part of something much bigger.
 6  391                  It hadn't occurred to my conscious
 7     mind that CBC was indeed a national radio, and at that
 8     moment I fully realized the power and the influence CBC
 9     plays in the life of individual Canadian citizens. 
10     Again, when I most needed to be, I was part of one
11     country.
12  392                  I could regale you with specific
13     stories of precious and significant moments the CBC has
14     played in my life.  I have spent the last 18 years in a
15     community with a focus on research and development. 
16     Many citizens from many other countries have visited
17     and moved to our community.  The consistent
18     recommendation to the new families is:  In order to get
19     a sense of Canada tune into CBC radio.
20  393                  I recall laughing out loud as
21     Peter Gzowski encountered fruit flies in his studio as
22     he interviewed an herbologist.  I recall feeling
23     honoured and delighted to be welcomed to eavesdrop on a
24     conversation between Peter Gzowski and Farley Mowatt. 
25     I recall crying with compassion, identification and
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 1     understanding at a letter sent to Morningside from
 2     another citizen from our great country.  I recall
 3     knowing the pride I felt as a Canadian and the respect
 4     I felt for the countless brave and insightful Canadian
 5     individuals whose stories have been told on CBC.
 6  394                  If by now you have glazed over after
 7     listening to the accolades I heap upon CBC, I would
 8     like you to wipe away the glaze and listen to what I
 9     have to say.
10  395                  Eighteen years ago today, I
11     experienced the miracle of birth and was blessed with a
12     wonderful a son, a son who blended humour, sensitivity,
13     physical strength and intelligence into his daily
14     existence.  Two years' ago last Saturday my son died. 
15     I have no desire to be melodramatic.  I have not got
16     the words to express the devastation his death has had
17     on my soul.  Cynics and perhaps others would feel that
18     what I have to say borders on the ludicrous, but it is
19     indeed a fact.
20  396                  Through the intense grief and
21     isolation I have felt and continue to feel when family
22     and friends would not or could not reach into the depth
23     of my sorrow, many times it was the people on CBC who
24     made me realize that people do still live.  They are
25     still thinking and debating and complaining and
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 1     laughing.  Canada's heart still beats strongly,
 2     strongly, I might add, in light of adverse cutbacks.
 3  397                  I have heard people speak of CBC as
 4     elitist.  Knowing quite well what elitism means, I
 5     cannot but translate this into alienation.  If I'm not
 6     part of the elite, then I am alienated from what they
 7     are doing.  I believe we are alienated if we are made
 8     to feel uncomfortable.
 9  398                  I recall my father's rage when he was
10     confronted with the unusual and unfamiliar arts world
11     portrayed in Festival.  I am sorry that certain
12     individuals are unable to look beyond their comfortable
13     world and at least recognize that there is a world
14     beyond our tightly defined horizons.  I am sorry that
15     some of us do not appreciate the challenge of
16     investigation and representation of alternates points
17     of view, but I am grateful the CBC has throughout my
18     life reminded me that I am part of a much bigger
19     picture.  It has invited me to question my biases and
20     to hear other opinions, to weigh the information, to
21     think.  I have had the chance to listen, feel for and
22     appreciate Canadians and I have not been alone.  There
23     has been no other medium that has come remotely close
24     to doing this for me.
25  399                  Do not underestimate the influence
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 1     CBC has had on individual Canadians.  Do not assume for
 2     a moment that the sense we have of our fellow
 3     Canadians, our diverse regions, our national and
 4     individual celebrations and heartaches would be as
 5     strong as it is today without the work of CBC and those
 6     with the vision of its success.
 7  400                  With regard to past cuts and future
 8     funding, and at the risk of sounding overly aggressive,
 9     I will paraphrase a prophetic phrase I implore the CBC
10     to consider:  If one believes the cost of education and
11     knowledge is too great, one ought to try to fathom the
12     cost of ignorance.
13  401                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
14     Ms Davidson.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissement
16  402                  MS PINSKY:  Mary Hewitt-Smith is the
17     next presenter.
18     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
19  403                  MS HEWITT-SMITH:  Fellow Canadians,
20     addressing you as a public citizen today I recall a
21     speech I made 10 years ago when I talked about two
22     things that united our country.
23  404                  Today we have already lost our
24     continental railway and our Canadian Broadcasting
25     Corporation is constantly being weakened link by link.
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 1  405                  In the past, the CBC has expressed
 2     our values, formed the stories from which our history
 3     is written, expressed our culture and explored our
 4     visions of the future.
 5  406                  Today the CBC has been unique in
 6     celebrating and promoting our identity as a nation,
 7     unlike the commercial stations which have no such
 8     mandate or interest.  Everyone knows of the vast
 9     cutbacks by the federal governments during the past
10     decade, which has caused the loss of the local news
11     broadcasting, discouraging our own communities and all
12     our communities from other across Canada.
13  407                  I read that wrong and it's important
14     and I'm going to reread it.
15  408                  Everyone knows of the vast cutbacks
16     by the federal governments during the past decade which
17     has caused the loss of local news broadcasting,
18     disconnecting our own communities and all communities
19     from others across Canada.  Old programs have been
20     replaced by ever-increasing repeat programming.  Many
21     programs have been dropped at the height of their
22     popularity while many of the new shows do not capture
23     our interest or imagination.  In the past the CBC has
24     endeavoured to educate and inform Canadians.  Programs
25     like the Farm Forum contributed greatly in organizing
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 1     our farmers, pulling them through The Depression.
 2  409                  I'm sad to say that I cannot see the
 3     CBC in this role today with the forces that influence
 4     it.  Today we, as Canadians, expect our news broadcasts
 5     and information programs to give us balanced
 6     viewpoints.  We want to hear the viewpoints of the
 7     political party in power and the opposition parties,
 8     depending on the issues.  We want to hear reports from
 9     the C.D. Howe and Fraser Institutes.
10  410                  On the other hand, we expect to hear
11     how organizations like the Canadian Centre for Policy
12     Alternatives or the Council of Canadians stand on
13     issues.
14  411                  Many businesses show interest in
15     commercialization of some of our prime time radio.  The
16     advertising dollars will certainly negatively influence
17     the content of the programs.  I am unabashedly a very
18     loyal CBC radio listener.  When my piano tuner entered
19     my house a few years ago, he laughed with surprise to
20     hear my radio still on CBC two months into a strike. 
21     It is my very best friend, with Terry MacLeod gently
22     awakening me each morning at six o'clock and
23     Marjorie Doyle tucking me into my bed each night.
24  412                  Even with devastating cutbacks to
25     many of our local and national programs, not only have
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 1     many survived but have vastly improved due to the
 2     abundance of superb radio announcers, guests and very
 3     intelligent talented people working behind the scenes.
 4  413                  My accolades go to Terry MacLeod,
 5     Avril Benoit, Karen Tool-Mitchell (ph), Donald
 6     Benam (ph), Lister Sinclair, Eleanor Wachtell, Jason
 7     Moskovitch (ph), Bob MacDonald, Joey Taylor, Nora
 8     Young, Rex Murphy, Mary-Lou Finlay, Marjorie Doyle,
 9     Ian Brown, Jim Cochrane.
10  414                  Never before in over 50 years of
11     devote listening have we ever had so many talented,
12     intelligent, conscientious, unbiased people working on
13     a radio station probably anywhere in the world.  Before
14     we get too carried away, I wish to express a few of my
15     personal beefs.
16  415                  I am an older single woman who rarely
17     goes out on Saturday night.  What a void between eight
18     and ten.  It is the only time all week I turn my radio
19     off.  I'm sorry, but poor Danny Finkleman with his
20     music and views just doesn't stand up to the standard
21     that I expect from the CBC.  The problem is there is no
22     alternative on FM or TV.
23  416                  Michael Enright will never be able to
24     replace Peter Gzowski, with whom I have had a long
25     lovely relationship.  Michael is an intelligent fluent
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 1     person who is simply lacking in sensitivity towards
 2     women, ethnics, youth, Canadians in general.  Peter at
 3     least related to all kinds of Canadians from coast to
 4     coast to coast.  Michael admits that every opportunity
 5     he gets he heads to a ranch in Wyoming.
 6  417                  I believe Vickie Gaberal (ph) should
 7     have remained on CBC radio.  I believe the biggest
 8     mistake made by the CBC was to cut The Food Show.  I
 9     really resent this personally as through ignorance I
10     didn't have nutritional information resulting in a
11     major operation and I see so many Canadians who haven't
12     a clue how to eat properly today.
13  418                  Very rarely do I turn on my
14     television because I believe it is getting worse
15     yearly.  When they cancel programs like Street Legal,
16     North of 60, Rita MacNeil and her wonderful guests, I
17     have lost interest.  Hockey, which I used to enjoy, has
18     become far too violent.  I wish the NFB films that they
19     used to play would resume.
20  419                  I have an eclectic taste in music and
21     resent that so much jazz is being promoted.  I wish
22     someone -- I don't know whether I should say this but
23     it's a pet peeve -- I wish someone would have the nerve
24     to tell Ken Finkleman that he is not, never was and
25     never will be funny.  The news is too late,
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 1     particularly the local news.  I don't appreciate the
 2     violent edge so prevalent in so many productions.
 3  420                  There are a few TV programs I do
 4     appreciate.  As a grandmother I get to watch small
 5     children's shows.  There were tremendous adjustments
 6     when new technologies were developing, but CBC kids'
 7     programs now compare very favourably with other
 8     channels.  Raccoons is the exception, because I sense
 9     the program is deliberately being manipulated by values
10     I do not endorse, particularly with children.
11  421                  I am disappointed when I have to go
12     out on Sunday nights because I enjoy the variety of
13     shows offered.  Monday night, too, is a good evening
14     with Air Farce, This Hour Has 22 Minutes; and Life and
15     Times, David Suzuki, Ventures, Market Place, The Fifth
16     Estate are worth-watching programs.
17  422                  In ending, I have some requests.  The
18     haemorrhaging from cuts to the CBC must be terminated
19     and funding restored.  It is time to reinvest first in
20     local programming, particularly for people who live in
21     areas in close proximity to the U.S. or for those who
22     have had no other means of obtaining local news.  With
23     health care being the number one issue of concern with
24     Canadians, why isn't there a program on health
25     prevention?  There should be one on food also.
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 1  423                  Since there are plans behind closed
 2     doors to create a new position of CBC Vice-President
 3     who would live in Ottawa and be responsible for news, I
 4     am absolutely opposed to the federal government
 5     interfering with news coverage.  In a democratic
 6     country, we need no body censoring our news.  What ever
 7     happened to freedom of speech?
 8  424                  Since I am happy with the CBC mandate
 9     and as is it now stands, I do not care to have it
10     changed through privatization.  I am here today because
11     I value our CBC and wish to defend the wonderful work
12     they do.  We must fight to restore it to health, to
13     preserve its mandate and to ensure freedom of speech
14     for all.
15  425                  I wish to thank the CRTC for this
16     opportunity of speaking to you today.
17  426                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
18     Ms Hewitt-Smith.
19  427                  MS PINSKY:  David Northcott.
20     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
21  428                  MR. NORTHCOTT:  Thank you.
22  429                  Yes, renew the licence; yes,
23     strengthen the licence; and, yes, use your influence to
24     strengthen CBC's licence.
25  430                  Now, that's your scope of influence,
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 1     and now the other piece.
 2  431                  At Winnipeg Harvest, it's a food bank
 3     in Winnipeg, we see the distress of families and the
 4     food bank experience growing because of decisions made
 5     primarily on issues of economic reality and the demand
 6     that the economic engine must be the generator of all
 7     activity and people must fit those moulds.
 8  432                  We appreciate that CBC quants that. 
 9     We appreciate that the broadcasting community was able
10     to put its foot in the economic realities as well as
11     the social and cultural realities which don't enter the
12     economic engine and to tell the stories and reflect the
13     cultures of all sectors of our society.  That's an
14     asset for all Canadians.
15  433                  There are four sectors in our
16     society.  There is the government sector, there is the
17     not-for-profit sector, there is the business and
18     organized labour sector, and the fourth sector of all
19     which critically depends on the CBC and the right to
20     access the CBC, that's neighbourhoods, neighbourhoods
21     where people live, decisions are made and folks who
22     contribute to many, many charities in Canada.
23  434                  The CBC has an ability to put its
24     foot in many worlds, and please don't demand that it
25     put all its feet and all its financial eggs in the
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 1     economic basket and the for-profit world.  I think it
 2     does itself a disservice by doing that.
 3  435                  The CBC is a distinctive and
 4     continuous cultural link with the cultural hearts and
 5     the mosaic called Canada.  The CBC's model has been
 6     known as a thinking person's media outlet for many,
 7     many years with just cause.  The CBC and its workforce
 8     are a unique blend of for-profit commercial
 9     broadcasting skills while at the same time providing
10     access for developing Canadian talent, unique
11     entertainment and programs that otherwise would not be
12     showcased in Canada.
13  436                  There are five hits.
14  437                  The first hit is a right to access to
15     information and data by all Canadians, regardless of
16     their income, regardless of their ability to purchase a
17     service, regardless of where they live in Canada.
18  438                  The second piece, developing a
19     showcase in Canadian talent, is not a profitable
20     endeavour until they get popular and commercially
21     viable.  At some point in time somebody has to do the
22     developing and CBC has a strong and rich tradition with
23     doing that.
24  439                  Thirdly, the CBC is a safe place to
25     rethink issues of politics, economic activity,
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 1     ecological activity and to rethink and channel and
 2     engage people in a dialogue without worrying about
 3     having the funders cut, although when you move into
 4     government issues I'm sure we all have that risk.  But
 5     to be a safe place to rethink and challenge has got to
 6     be the centrepiece of what CBC has been doing for many
 7     years, and please encourage and use your licensing
 8     skills to encourage that.
 9  440                  Fourthly, a skill and career
10     excellence and fair and just compensation for many men
11     and women in Canada who train themselves to be career
12     people in CBC.  CBC has had the reputation for fairness
13     and caring and being able to nurture people with fair
14     dollars.  We are not interested in the move to minimum
15     wage jobs, to term work and the private sector
16     commercial interests in broadcasting.  We are
17     interested in people that can develop careers, pay
18     their taxes and have an industry standard broadcasting
19     that is world renowned.  Please, let's not lose that.
20  441                  Fifthly, thresholds.  The whole
21     relationship that the CRTC can bring to the table is
22     your ability to do licensing and respect the thresholds
23     that are challenging the whole Canadian mosaic
24     including the social justice piece.
25  442                  Food banks in Canada know full well
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 1     that we can't eliminate the issues of child poverty or
 2     hungry Canadians using food banks without strong
 3     ethically funded government dollars.  The challenge the
 4     CRTC can bring is a licensing agreement that can force
 5     government to their table ethically strong as well as
 6     force CBC to the table with the same ethical challenges
 7     to treat its people well.
 8  443                  Social justice, rethinking issues and
 9     developing Canadian talent is not profitable work to
10     do.  However, as a Canadian that struggles with that
11     torn safety net, we need a thinking, reflective voice
12     that asks us all tough questions and demands answers. 
13     We must measure activity not just with economic dollars
14     but with people who make up the core fabric of Canada,
15     many of whom cannot afford or have the skills to
16     participate in the economic engine.  To have a media
17     that is funded by our tax dollars allows us to expect
18     programs, questions, reflections for all of us, not
19     just those that can afford to buy the product.
20  444                  We are delighted at Winnipeg Harvest
21     for their relationship with many, many talented people
22     and all the media outlets in Winnipeg, not just CBC. 
23     We appreciate both the commercial and public
24     broadcasters.  We appreciate the print and electronic
25     ability to tell the stories and ask the questions that
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 1     affect our lives every day.
 2  445                  We also recognize and appreciate the
 3     unique relationship that the public broadcasting
 4     system, CBC, crosses, over many boundaries, crosses
 5     over business and organized labour, crosses over
 6     government, crosses over not-for-profit boundaries, as
 7     well as being able to stir and influence
 8     neighbourhoods.  All four sectors CBC is able to step
 9     into without fear of financial retribution without fear
10     of losing commercial sponsors.
11  446                  Essentially, Canada should not just
12     be driven by economic realities that we are challenged
13     with to so many areas today.  Decisions from the head,
14     heart and soul of Canada, and not just from the pocket
15     book, are hopefully going to make a culture that will
16     eliminate food banks.
17  447                  Thank you.
18     --- Applause / Applaudissement
19  448                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
20     Mr. Northcott.
21  449                  MS PINSKY:  Cheryl Ashton.
22     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23  450                  MS ASHTON:  Thanks.
24  451                  Good afternoon.  My name is Cheryl
25     Ashton and I'm the Executive Director of the National
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 1     Screen Institute Canada.  NSI Canada is one of the four
 2     federally recognized training institutions in Canada
 3     which focuses exclusively on training writers,
 4     producers and directors for the Canadian film and
 5     television industry.
 6  452                  NSI Canada was established in
 7     Edmonton, Alberta 13 years ago making it the oldest
 8     film and television training institute in Canada. 
 9     NSI Canada has offices in Edmonton and more recently
10     Winnipeg.  We are the only federally recognized film
11     and television training institute located in Western
12     Canada consequently giving us a very unique perspective
13     on the film and television industry in this country.
14  453                  Our perspective is based on the
15     reality of the film and television writers, producers
16     and directors we train across the country.  Unlike
17     their centrally located peers, our regional writers,
18     producers and directors find that without a voice or
19     presence in the larger centres they are at a clear
20     disadvantage in terms of having access to the centrally
21     located CBC's decision makers.
22  454                  In this industry, in addition to what
23     you know, it is more important to adhere to the old
24     adage of who you know.
25  455                  NSI Canada, over the last 13 years,
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 1     has trained these regional independent film and
 2     television writers, directors and producers in the same
 3     fashion as their centrally located counterparts only to
 4     discover the regional talent is held hostage by their
 5     address.  The final result is that we as Canadians lose
 6     a very unique opportunity to view the images and hear
 7     the stories from all regions of this country.
 8  456                  With this fact in mind, NSI Canada
 9     strongly urges the CRTC to continue to support the CBC
10     licence, but also to encourage the CBC to decentralize
11     its decision-making process and encourage the
12     corporation to allow regional directors such as
13     Jane Chalmers (ph) and Joan Novak and their staff and
14     give them the opportunity to make informed, instructive
15     decisions about what their viewing audience wants to
16     see and what their independent production community is
17     able to produce.
18  457                  Further, these dedicated
19     professionals should be given the opportunity to assist
20     in the development and broadcast licence
21     decision-making process on a national level.
22  458                  Having said that, I can speak with
23     great appreciation of the support NSI Canada has
24     received from the CBC over the last 18 years and this
25     includes -- CBC has continually sponsored our Drama
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 1     Prize Program which is an annual national competition
 2     which chooses six teams of young film makers from
 3     across the country, puts them through an intensive
 4     18-month training process and results in their first
 5     short film which is premiered at a festival that we
 6     sponsor called Local Heroes International Spring
 7     Festival.
 8  459                  CBC training and development has
 9     allowed us to co-produce training workshops including
10     the National Writers Round Table, the Best of Input and
11     the Making It Happen seminars.  The participation of
12     CBC personnel in the various NSI Canada juries and
13     workshops throughout the year is greatly appreciated. 
14     These levels of participation and support play an
15     invaluable role in assisting us to be able to fulfil
16     our mandate.
17  460                  One final point I would like to make
18     is the CBC, since its inception, has played an
19     invaluable role in building a strong and vibrant
20     national television industry.  Over the last decade, we
21     in the film and television industry have witnessed a
22     tremendous growth in the strength and talent of our
23     regional producers, writers and directors.
24  461                  In Nova Scotia, Saskatchewan and
25     Manitoba huge increases in production volume, in
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 1     production activity have occurred.  If the CBC is to
 2     continue to have a true national presence, then I
 3     strongly urge the CRTC to encourage all of the
 4     centrally located CBC management to travel to these
 5     provinces on a regular basis in order to meet with the
 6     independent production communities and have them
 7     witness the reality of what is really happening.
 8  462                  In addition, these centrally located
 9     managers should be encouraged to acknowledge not only
10     the expertise of the CBC's regional directors, but of
11     the staff that live and work and produce in the regions
12     because they are on the front line and they truly
13     understand what the committees want to see and what
14     they are able to produce.
15  463                  Thanks.
16  464                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
17     Ms Ashton.
18  465                  MS PINSKY:  Carol Vivier.
19     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
20  466                  MS VIVIER:  Good afternoon,
21     Commissioners and staff, ladies and gentlemen.
22  467                  My name is Carol Vivier and I'm the
23     CEO of Manitoba Film & Sound.
24  468                  Manitoba Film & Sound is the
25     provincial funding agency whose mandate is to develop
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 1     and invest in the infrastructure and the promotion and
 2     marketing of Manitoba's film, television and sound
 3     recording industries.  We are funded by the Department
 4     of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship.
 5  469                  I'm here today to discuss issues
 6     relating to the CRTC's Public Notice 1998-134 regarding
 7     public consultations on the Canadian Broadcasting
 8     Corporation.
 9  470                  First of all, I would like to thank
10     the Commission for undertaking these regional hearings. 
11     I believe it is very important that Canadians from
12     across the country have the opportunity to discuss with
13     the Commission their views of the public broadcaster,
14     and I would like to state for the record that I
15     strongly support the CBC as a public broadcaster. 
16     Although I have some concerns, as I will mention in a
17     moment, I do not hesitate to support the CBC as a much
18     needed cultural institution in our country.
19  471                  In a public notice, the Commission
20     outlined four general questions as a guide for
21     participants.  I would like to comment on these four
22     general areas, but not necessarily in the same order as
23     outlined by the Commission.
24  472                  I would like to start with the last
25     question first:
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 1                            "Is there a special role for the
 2                            CBC and the presentation of
 3                            Canadian programming?" 
 4                            (As read)
 5  473                  Absolutely.  Yes.  The CBC as our
 6     public broadcaster has a special obligation to develop
 7     and showcase talent from across Canada.  The CBC has a
 8     unique responsibility to participate in the development
 9     of emerging Canadian talent including writers, actors,
10     directors and producers, and to provide opportunities
11     for this talent to grow and to gain stature within
12     Canada and outside of our borders.
13  474                  The next question:
14                            "Should the programming provided
15                            by the CBC be different from
16                            that provided by other
17                            broadcasters?"  (As read)
18  475                  Again, absolutely, yes.  Private
19     sector broadcasters are motivated by profits and the
20     CBC should not be forced to focus on competing for
21     ratings or advertising dollars against the private
22     sector.  The CBC's role should continue to be to
23     provide Canadian audiences with the best of Canadian
24     programming made by Canadians.
25  476                  Now we come to the important
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 1     questions from the perspective of Manitoba Film &
 2     Sound:
 3                            "How well does the CBC serve the
 4                            public on a regional as well as
 5                            a national level?"  (As read)
 6  477                  I am speaking primarily to television
 7     here and the Canadian content.  For an independent I
 8     would argue not very well.  The Broadcasting Act states
 9     that the CBC's programming should reflect Canada and
10     its regions to national and regional audiences while
11     serving the special needs of those regions.  Yet in
12     Manitoba we have witnessed the downsizing of the CBC
13     regional office here and the demise of regional and
14     local productions.
15  478                  As we presented to the CRTC and our
16     appearance at the television policy review hearings
17     last September, the CBC's track record in triggering
18     national productions in Western Canada and Manitoba in
19     particular has been less than stellar.
20  479                  According to the Western Television
21     Production Study prepared for the Department of
22     Canadian Heritage last year, CBC's financing of Western
23     Canadian independent television production dropped
24     51 per cent between 1993-94 and 1997-98, while dropping
25     only 25 per cent of the total English language Canadian
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 1     content independent production across the five years.
 2  480                  Quite simply, over the past five
 3     years the CBC has significantly reduced their overall
 4     involvement in the west.  In Manitoba in 1997-98, the
 5     CBC's total involvement in triggering any television
 6     production from the Canadian Television Fund amounted
 7     to one television licence fee of $24,000 for one
 8     documentary project.
 9  481                  Regional production and the
10     development of Western Canadian stories for Canadian
11     television screens is an inherent public interest
12     objective of the Broadcasting Act.  The CBC has a
13     responsibility to reflect the regions to the rest of
14     the country and in the case of providing broadcast
15     opportunities to the producers and other talent in
16     Manitoba, the CBC is not doing a very good job.
17  482                  While the regional CBC office does
18     what it can, without adequate funding and air time,
19     dedicated air time, it's pretty difficult for them to
20     achieve very much here.
21  483                  This is compounded for western
22     producers by the difficulty of gaining access to CBC
23     decision makers who are based predominantly in Toronto.
24  484                  Given the CBC's mandate, these CBC
25     decision makers should be regularly travelling across
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 1     the country meeting with producers and searching for
 2     new stories and new talent to develop.  How do they
 3     know they are getting the best if they are not out
 4     there actively looking for it.
 5  485                  Better yet would be to empower the
 6     decision makers that earn the regional offices with
 7     funding and the ability to engage product from their
 8     own areas, hence, I think some decentralization.
 9  486                  So, in conclusion, to answer the
10     first question posed by the Commission, "How well does
11     the CBC fulfil its role as a national public
12     broadcaster", I would say in some instances the CBC
13     does admirably well with the resources that it has, but
14     in terms of serving the hopes and aspirations of
15     western and Manitoba producers, the CBC seems to have
16     abandoned its mandate.
17  487                  Finally:
18                            "Should the CBC fulfil its role
19                            in a different manner in the
20                            future?"  (As read)
21  488                  Yes.  In the future the CBC's
22     programming should reflect contributions from across
23     the country by providing equal opportunities for all
24     Canadians to develop, produce and showcase their
25     stories in their own regions and to the rest of the
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 1     country.
 2  489                  Thank you very much.
 3  490                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 4     Ms Vivier.
 5  491                  MS VIVIER:  I would just like to add
 6     one note.
 7  492                  With Canadian programming, I think
 8     the CBC has been caught in this raising of advertising
 9     revenue.  Germany, when it's content programming that
10     the German government provides for, their main measure
11     is audience.  Is that programming reaching the German
12     audience?  If it is, that is sufficient to reach an
13     objective.
14  493                  I think in Canada, as regards the
15     CBC, that needs to be refocussed.  I think if the CBC's
16     programming is reaching the Canadian audience in great
17     numbers, that is a terrific measure and I think they
18     are caught between trying to raise advertising dollars
19     and meet audience targets, and I think in some cases
20     it's not achievable.
21  494                  Thank you.
22  495                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
23  496                  MS PINSKY:  You are welcome to remain
24     at the table if you wish, I think there is enough room,
25     or you can step down.  I will call up three more
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 1     presenters whose names I have registered here:  Murray
 2     Smith, Herbert Schulz and Kenneth Emberley.
 3  497                  If there is anybody else in the room
 4     who would like to make a presentation, you can come up
 5     to the table and make yourself known.
 6     --- Short pause / Courte pause
 7  498                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Murray Smith.
 8     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 9  499                  MR. SMITH:  Good afternoon.  I'm a
10     retired school teacher with, I would say, a lifelong
11     involvement with radio as a listener.
12  500                  I asked myself my motivation for
13     coming and realized that I could be accused of
14     appearing out of self-interest in that it matters a
15     great deal to me that the radio in particular, but
16     television as well, provide the kinds of things that
17     I'm interested in.
18  501                  Now, I know that self-interest has a
19     suspect sound to it and I myself often feel that when
20     the private broadcasters make appearances to your
21     Commission they do so out of self-interest, which
22     really means the growth and profitability of their
23     industry.
24  502                  I find that by contrast, when I hear
25     the CBC arguing their case, they refer more often to
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 1     service and education and national culture,
 2     communication of the arts and I feel that as less the
 3     aggrandizement of CBC than trying to live up to what is
 4     in the Act.  So, yes, I'm here because these things
 5     have meant a lot to me over the years.
 6  503                  I found it very heartening listening
 7     to the presentations this afternoon because they were
 8     almost entirely positive, even where there were
 9     criticisms expressed.  As you just heard from
10     Ms Vivier, the basic support from the CBC was very
11     strong.
12     --- Technical difficulties / Difficultés techniques
13  504                  MR. SMITH:  I didn't know I created
14     that much noise that easily.
15  505                  What came through to me, then, was
16     the warmth and strength of support for this national
17     institution.  I asked myself and I ask you now:  Have
18     you ever heard support like that for any private
19     broadcaster?  Have you ever heard that kind of loyalty
20     to any broadcasting station or broadcasting system?
21  506                  As a youngster growing up in the
22     thirties, I was actually around at the time that radio
23     first became significant in Winnipeg life.  I was aware
24     that there was a national institution launched, I was
25     also aware of local broadcasting stations.  It never
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 1     occurred to me that these were competitive with each
 2     other, but in the 60 years since that time it is very
 3     clear how their interests and their mandates have
 4     diverged.
 5  507                  In the fifties, when I was living in
 6     England, I encountered a man, Graham Spry (ph) who was
 7     actually directly involved in the creation of the
 8     Canadian Broadcasting Corporation and I though at that
 9     time, and I have thought often since, how lucky we were
10     that there were this handful of people who thought that
11     this was terribly important and who argued with
12     government and argued with the public that we needed a
13     public broadcaster.  I thought it was very helpful that
14     Gordon Toombs reminded me, obviously he doesn't need to
15     remind you, of the clauses in the Act which express
16     even today the kind of vision which was there in the
17     thirties about what radio could do for this country in
18     terms of tying us together, in terms of fostering the
19     development of communities, you know, as isolated as
20     some of the western communities were.
21  508                  Someone mentioned Farm Forum.  I
22     don't think most people today have any notion of the
23     impact that that program had in the prairies.
24  509                  In my thinking about the work of the
25     CBC, I tend to be more interested in radio because I
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 1     find that the CBC radio is much more distinctive.  I
 2     would like to remind you that the cost of providing
 3     public radio is very modest compared with the cost of
 4     providing public television and that for the money
 5     invested Canadians get a wonderful service.
 6  510                  In our home, my wife and I are both
 7     radio listeners.  Radios are on a good deal of the
 8     time, although not as background.  She listens only to
 9     CBC Radio One because she is a talk person and she
10     really values all the programs that CBC offers.  I
11     listen only to CBC Radio Two, which means that I listen
12     to music except where it is interrupted for the news.
13  511                  To me there are two components of
14     CBC radio that are especially precious.  One is the
15     kind of mature presentation of ideas exemplified by the
16     program with that name, and the other is the valuable
17     presentation of music.  I think that we should remind
18     ourselves -- and perhaps I can take that liberty
19     because I haven't heard anyone saying it on behalf of
20     the organizations -- I think we should remind ourselves
21     that CBC radio have a very close connection with
22     several musical organizations in Winnipeg, the Manitoba
23     Chamber Orchestra, many of their performances are
24     broadcast by the CBC, the Virtuosi Concerts, all of
25     whose concerts are broadcast by CBC; the Winnipeg
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 1     Symphony Orchestra whose New Music Festival is almost
 2     entirely broadcast by the CBC, not only across the
 3     country but internationally, and then many local
 4     chamber groups and recitalists who get on the air.
 5  512                  Compared with that commitment to
 6     local music making I don't think CBC television rates
 7     as highly.  It has done something for the ballet, but
 8     it hasn't done much for the Winnipeg Symphony or any
 9     other instrumental group.
10  513                  I would remind people who weren't
11     around when these institutions started that the first
12     broadcasts on radio and indeed the first broadcasts on
13     television were almost always music.  Even in the
14     development of the American networks, the first
15     programs that were transmitted nationally in the United
16     States were of serious music and popular music, but the
17     two in some sort of balance.
18  514                  When I was 20 I had an opportunity to
19     live in Britain for three years so I had a very serious
20     exposure to BBC radio, not much to BBC television.  BBC
21     radio was astonishing to me even though I had
22     appreciated radio as I had heard it in Winnipeg through
23     the CBC and through Sicyus (ph) Bay where they had a
24     good deal of music broadcast.
25  515                  But living in Oxford I could tune in
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 1     music for two or three hours or four or five hours a
 2     day, I could pick and choose, I could hear what I
 3     wanted and ignore what I didn't want.  It was a musical
 4     education without parallel and its a debt that I owe to
 5     them and since to CBC, and I think that it is a debt
 6     many people have and that many younger people have the
 7     right to incur by getting their music through the
 8     radio.
 9  516                  I have a couple of other comments
10     which are more random.  One is that I think many of us
11     have become very hostile to advertising and I consider
12     it one of the many blessings of CBC radio that it is
13     not subjected to advertising.
14  517                  When I was in Britain about 15 years
15     ago, I watched more television and I watched the BBC
16     which had no advertising.  One example which I might
17     quote.  I'm fond of watching track and field on
18     television, which covers it very well.  I watched a
19     one-hour BBC program in which they reported on and
20     showed every event which took place during an entire
21     afternoon's competition.  They managed to show you
22     every race and every jump.  That's because:  (a) there
23     was no advertising; (b) there were no lengthy
24     interviews; (c) there were no in-depth biographies,
25     there was no personal interest stuff.  They actually
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 1     showed you what happened.
 2  518                  On reflection, I was really amazed
 3     what could be fitted into one hour.  So when I returned
 4     to Canada I watched a broadcast on an American network
 5     of a similar event and in the course of an hour there
 6     five events shown, not 35 but five because all the rest
 7     of the time was advertising, commentary, interview,
 8     background, human interest stuff.  They were not
 9     interested in showing you the track and field
10     competition.  They were putting on a show.
11  519                  I think that once in awhile we should
12     ask ourselves what commercial radio would be like
13     without advertising, what television of all kinds would
14     be like without advertising and ask whether we would
15     have accepted this if we had been given a choice
16     40 years ago.
17  520                  I return to my basic point that I
18     think you have heard this afternoon:  a level of
19     support and a level of loyalty for the kind of things
20     which CBC can do, an interest in enabling it to
21     continue fulfilling its mandate better than it has been
22     able to do with limited resources.  It should reinforce
23     your understanding that there is a substantial number
24     of Manitobans who consider that the CBC is an important
25     part of their lives.
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 1  521                  Thank you.
 2  522                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 3     Mr. Smith.
 4  523                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Herbert Schulz.
 5     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 6  524                  MR. SCHULZ:  Madam Commissioner, I
 7     want to begin by commending you for being here, and
 8     through you the CRTC.
 9  525                  I expect there will be those who will
10     feel that this is another one of those periodic reviews
11     of the CBC which is designed to reduce its prestige and
12     eventually to dispose of it as a public corporation. 
13     But as far as I am concerned, any agency that is
14     publicly funded and that has as high a profile as the
15     CBC and that has the potential for doing good or bad
16     that the CBC has needs to periodically be reviewed.
17  526                  Therefore, I am glad that you are
18     here and that I am one of those who is here to help
19     review it.  In fact, one of the reasons that I have
20     always supported public corporations is because we can
21     periodically review them but we don't need to go -- you
22     know, if you have a private TV station and you don't
23     like what they are showing you are told "Well, turn the
24     channel", but if you turn the channel you get the same
25     junk.  With the CBC we can sit at meetings like this
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 1     and review it and try to get the kind of programs that
 2     we would like to have.
 3  527                  Incidentally, I want to concur with
 4     Murray Smith, that you are dealing here with the people
 5     who have used CBC all their lives and who feel that it
 6     is a part of their lives.
 7  528                  Now, I had intended to make a great
 8     speech here for my edification as well as yours. 
 9     Unfortunately, well, it was all in my mind and then
10     Saturday morning I stopped at a book store and walked
11     in just to see what they had and the first book I
12     spotted was The Microphone Wars by everybody's
13     favourite news anchor Nolton Nash.  So I made the
14     mistake of reading it and I discovered that all the
15     proposals that I had been intending to make here had
16     already been experimented with and most of them had
17     failed.
18  529                  So I come here to give simply a very
19     general presentation with respect to a rather personal
20     view of the value of CBC.
21  530                  A number of years ago my wife and I
22     drove to Florida and on the way back we could hardly
23     wait to get within reach of a Canadian radio
24     transmitter.  My wife was playing with the radio dial
25     on the car and suddenly there it was, that distinctive
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 1     CBC voice, no one that we knew but it was immediately
 2     recognizable as a CBC voice.  So we coined an
 3     expression:  Being Canadian is being able to live in
 4     the land of CBC.  It's something that we coined just
 5     the two of us a long time ago and it's something that
 6     we had never quite forgotten and every time we go
 7     travelling we feel exactly the same way when we come
 8     back.
 9  531                  I asked my wife one day:  Well, what
10     is it that we find in the CBC which we don't find
11     anywhere else?  She, being a woman of few words, said
12     "It has scope, it has substance and it has style."
13  532                  When I asked for some elucidation,
14     she said "Well, it covers the world and when you have
15     heard a CBC newscast you feel that you have learned
16     something."
17  533                  It has style, it has a distinctive
18     voice.  You know immediately when you are listening to
19     a CBC newscaster, whether it is on the radio and you
20     know the name or not.  It's not like these raucous
21     female voices that you hear so often, particularly in
22     the United States, that make your hair stand on end as
23     if the school teacher is scratching her fingernail on a
24     blackboard on a cold winter morning or that male voice
25     with the nasal whine.  These are CBC voices.  They
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 1     sound like the voices of people who know what they are
 2     talking about.  They sound like the voices of people
 3     that you can have some confidence in.
 4  534                  Since then we have done a
 5     considerable amount of travelling, mostly in the United
 6     States and mostly in the west and the midwest and the
 7     southwest.  We lived in Arizona for two years.  We have
 8     learned to know a lot of American people, and we have
 9     learned to see them as very fine people.  They are
10     kind, they are helpful, they are friendly almost to a
11     fault sometimes, but something is missing.  These are
12     the people who believe that Rush Limbo (ph) is the
13     reincarnation of Jesus Christ.  These are the people
14     who believe that President Clinton was a communist. 
15     These are the people who seem to feel that if anyone
16     mentions merikeri (ph) he is a subversive.
17  535                  I asked my wife one day:  What is it
18     that makes these people -- I mean, they look the same
19     as we do, they speak the same language as we do, what
20     is it that makes them different?  She of course gave me
21     the short answer:  they have no CBC.  And the more I
22     thought about it, the more I have been forced to the
23     conclusion that that does make a difference.  We know
24     something.
25  536                  When you speak to the people down
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 1     there, particularly in the midwest and the southwest,
 2     once you get beyond the borders of their state or often
 3     beyond the borders of their municipality, they just
 4     don't know.  We have a picture of the world.  We have
 5     some idea of what is going on in the world and we get
 6     that from CBC.
 7  537                  Now, the mandate of the CBC, part of
 8     the mandate was to stimulate the intellect and to
 9     create a self-image for ourselves and also to project
10     it.  I think in that respect the CBC has probably been
11     more successful than it knows.  It has in fact become
12     unique.  But there is another part of the mandate and
13     that is to entertain.  How do we go about doing that? 
14     We can of course buy the entertainment, but then what
15     do we get?
16  538                  Let me read something here.  This is
17     a statement made by the United States Federal
18     Communications Ministers, Newton Monnin.  I'm sure you
19     are familiar with the name.  He said that American
20     television is a procession of game shows, violence,
21     audience participation shows, formula comedies about
22     totally unbelievable families, blood and thunder,
23     mayhem, violence, sadism, murder, western bad men,
24     western good men, private eyes, gangsters, more
25     violence, cartoons and endless commercials, many
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 1     screaming, cajoling and offending and most of all
 2     boredom.  Now that was said about 35 years ago.
 3  539                  What has changed since?  Well, there
 4     has been a change.  There are not -- well, there is the
 5     same amount of dead bodies on American television on
 6     the dramas but, you know, we used to be quite reticent
 7     about watching those.  We didn't know how fortunate we
 8     were because now we are seeing a lot of live bodies and
 9     they are almost always nude, and they are almost always
10     rolling around wrestling with each other on the bed or
11     on the floor, in the shower.  You know, the hair on
12     some of those people.  You know, if my body was that
13     hairy I wouldn't expose myself even in the bedroom with
14     the light off, and those are the women.  You should see
15     the men -- well, maybe you shouldn't.
16  540                  Then more recently there of course
17     has been that feeding frenzy, the morbid fascination
18     with OJ Simpson and his leading role as Mac the Knife,
19     and then there is Monika with her friendly President
20     with the priapic propensities, and that seems to be the
21     only things that we can see.
22  541                  Now, when I watch American television
23     and when I watch the American newscasts, particularly
24     in the last couple of years, I can only be so happy
25     that when we came from Europe my parents brought me to
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 1     live in Canada rather than the United States.  Indeed,
 2     to my wife and I, being Canadian is being able to live
 3     in the land of CBC.
 4  542                  Nevertheless, you can't have a
 5     network of radio and television without entertainment. 
 6     I mean, we can buy it easy enough or you can buy the
 7     kind of programs that I have just described.  In fact,
 8     not only can we buy them we can hardly keep them out
 9     unless we build a lead wall along the 49th Parallel
10     and -- well, we are not going to do that unless we can
11     justify it as a job creation program -- unless we do
12     that the American shows are here and they are very easy
13     to acquire.
14  543                  The question is:  Is that what we
15     want?  Yet we have to have entertainment if we want to
16     have a mass audience for CBC.  Now, we need programming
17     that includes drama, that includes entertainment.
18  544                  Now, this is in Norton Nash's book:
19                            "The one lesson clearly etched
20                            over six decades of CBC history
21                            is that programs are primary,
22                            everything else is supportive
23                            and secondary."  (As read)
24  545                  In other words, saving money is not
25     the great objective here.  The great objective ought to
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 1     be programming.
 2  546                  Then he goes on:
 3                            "The CBC could be the best
 4                            managed, most efficient, soundly
 5                            financed organization in the
 6                            country, but unless its programs
 7                            are exciting, enriching and
 8                            distinctive it won't be worth a
 9                            saucer of warm spit."  (As read)
10  547                  Nolton Nash does have a way with
11     words.
12  548                  So if we need the programming and if
13     CBC is reluctant to go to commercial advertising for
14     fear that it will make it just like any other station,
15     and if the government is reluctant to fund, then what
16     do we do?
17  549                  Several years ago the
18     Caplan-Sauvageau (ph) Commission did a study of CBC,
19     another of the many studies of CBC, and reported that
20     CBC news and current affairs is a great Canadian
21     success story, that there is a paucity of Canadian
22     drama.  Only 2 per cent of the dramas seen on English
23     language -- I mark that word -- "English language"
24     television was Canadian produced.
25  550                  Then the Commission went on to write
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 1     this.  Any change in this, the development of Canadian
 2     drama will be costly, but, quote:
 3                            "...paying for the new system is
 4                            the easy part of the problem. 
 5                            The more difficult question is
 6                            whether we have the will,
 7                            whether we care enough about the
 8                            role Canadian broadcasting plays
 9                            to do so."  (As read)
10  551                  Now, of course that is a problem. 
11     But it can be done.  We know it can be done because we
12     know of at least two groups in North America that have
13     done it and are doing it.  One is the religious right
14     in the United States and the other is the separatists
15     in Quebec.  They knew exactly what they want to do,
16     they have learned how to use the media to get it done. 
17     They have an agenda, and they are prepared to pay the
18     cost to satisfy that agenda.
19  552                  Perhaps the problem with the rest of
20     us is that we simply have no agenda.
21  553                  I'm sorry.  Am I going on too long? 
22     Just one more thought.
23  554                  In other words, if we want the
24     program, we are going to have to pay the cost.
25  555                  Now, there are those who say, well,
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 1     perhaps the CBC has fulfilled its mandate so let us
 2     sell it and go to the private stations and besides,
 3     then there would be no cost.  You know, that is the
 4     greatest self-delusion of all.
 5  556                  We have just had a situation, I'm
 6     sure you have heard or read about it, where a couple of
 7     years ago our government sold our publicly owned
 8     telephone system and the argument was that it's costing
 9     $90 million a year in interest charges and if we sell
10     it we won't have to pay that.  Well, just last week we
11     discovered that we were going to have to pay
12     $90 million in shareholders dividends.  So let's say
13     that the cost is the same, but there is a significant
14     difference:  we lost the company.
15  557                  We have exactly the same thing with
16     CBC.  Sure we can get rid of it, but then we go to the
17     private stations and are the private station owners
18     philanthropists?  No, they sell advertising, and they
19     advertise the cost of the advertising -- advertising
20     pay their costs.  And who pays the cost of the
21     advertising?  The people who buy the product from the
22     people who are doing the advertising.  Who are these
23     people?  They are exactly the same people as the
24     taxpayers.
25  558                  So it doesn't really matter.  We
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 1     either take it out of the taxpayers' pocket or our
 2     consumers' pocket.  But the difference is that we will
 3     have lost the system.
 4  559                  Thank you.  Sorry to go on.
 5  560                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 6     Mr. Schulz.
 7     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 8  561                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Kenneth Emberley.
 9     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
10  562                  MR. EMBERLEY:  Thank you.
11  563                  I have just been so pleased, ladies
12     and gentlemen.  I wrote my brief out "ladies and
13     gentlemen" hoping there would be at least one lady on
14     the CRTC, and I'm very pleased to see that there are
15     two because, now, officially, there are some people
16     that are saying ladies are just as smart and wise as
17     men.  It's official.  Judy Rebick (ph) told me so.
18  564                  I'm so proud to be here and to hear
19     this and to hear the presentations this afternoon.  I
20     thought of getting down on my hands and knees and
21     thanking you.
22  565                  And thinking of all these passionate
23     wonderful people -- I don't know if you remember the
24     advanced technology that Justice Berger (ph) used that
25     broadcast all across Canada all his hearings, and in
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 1     20 years of public hearings I have seen the system
 2     perfected to the point where we meet in a small private
 3     room with the door closed to hold a public hearing. 
 4     It's a fraud.  It is a fraud.
 5  566                  You people I believe are very
 6     passionately sincere and dedicated people, but you can
 7     imagine the shame I feel, the deep shame.  Every one of
 8     these speeches could have been broadcast on cable
 9     television in other provinces as well as here.  Every
10     one of those things could have been put on a movie and
11     taken out to the 20 biggest towns in Winnipeg in
12     Manitoba, and I feel a deep sense of shame at the
13     failure of a public hearing that is held in a private
14     room with the door closed.  How big an audience is
15     there here sharing in this besides the presenters? 
16     Count them with one hand.  Could you count them with
17     one hand?
18  567                  Ladies and gentlemen, I weep, I weep
19     with the failure.  But for 10 years I have been begging
20     for public hearings to be public.  Can you imagine, you
21     dedicated people that want to save the CBC -- I believe
22     that with all my heart, you want to save the CBC, look
23     at the opportunity you had to create -- if ten or
24     20,000 people in Manitoba heard these presentations. 
25     Please think about that.
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 1  568                  I love CBC.  I know it's not perfect,
 2     but, oh, I have a button on my television.  It's an
 3     advertising button.  And I turn on the television to
 4     Channel 9 whenever the advertising commercial comes on,
 5     sometimes I forget for five minutes and I miss part of
 6     the program, but I will not watch commercial
 7     advertising because 90 per cent of commercial
 8     advertising is like listening to a politician's speech,
 9     and I shut off a politician's speech after the first
10     five lies, and I have never heard more than eight
11     minutes of any politician's speech, not in 10 years.
12  569                  There has been so much wonderful
13     positive stuff today.  Murray mentioned that.  Such
14     positive stuff.  I want to help what I believe -- help
15     you the best way I can by giving a slightly different
16     presentation, because I want to remind you what we are
17     dealing with, the reality, the hard-ball game.
18  570                  Here is the loveliest book "No Car,
19     No Radio Nor Dicker (ph) Permit", the story about a
20     wonderful woman from our University of Manitoba spoke
21     at our Mount Dragon (ph) socialist book store and she
22     is talking about -- a whole book about the regulations
23     for women recipients of social welfare and social
24     assistance, and the spy network and the harassment and
25     the intimidation.
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 1  571                  You see, you wouldn't be aware as I
 2     am that for 150 years we had men judges, men lawyers,
 3     men policemen, men church ministers, men doctors. 
 4     Fifty years after we have banded to get the first women
 5     United Church ministers and the first women lawyers
 6     graduated.  Fifty years later, we have heard the first
 7     whisper of women's physical and sexual abuse and child
 8     sexual and physical abuse.
 9  572                  Now, there is a theory that kings and
10     nobleman and billionaires and millionaires are almost
11     all men.  There is a word "hierarchy", "patriarchy",
12     "bureaucracy."  Those are things.
13  573                  That system has been running our
14     world long enough that when I saw the second half of
15     episode of the movie Titanic, I fell off my chair
16     laughing and I realized the people that built the
17     Westray Mine, the people that run the Red Cross, the
18     people with Brian Tobin that put in all the Atlantic
19     fishing deep sea boats to fish all the salmon out of
20     the ocean, our whole country, most of the transnational
21     corporations are still running -- the people that built
22     and sailed the Titanic are still running everything in
23     our country.
24  574                  All of the male hierarchy.  There are
25     388 billionaires in the world and they have as much
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 1     wealth as two billion people.  The whole population of
 2     China and India is equal to 10 bus loads of selfish,
 3     greedy men.  In North America it's worse.  The head of
 4     Microsoft, the President of Wal-Mart with 1,000
 5     non-union shops, and one other man have as much wealth
 6     as the 100 million poorest Americans.
 7  575                  Now, this is an official definition
 8     of how democracy works.  You could get a professor to
 9     explain to you that this is caused by the laws that are
10     passed in the government, and Gary Filman (ph) passed
11     15 laws two years ago to prevent unions from having any
12     power.
13  576                  We have a problem in our country, in
14     our world.  The people, the people in the communities,
15     the people in the villages, mother nature, all the wild
16     creatures are all being destroyed.  You just have to
17     ask the CBC's David Suzuki, and all the other
18     intellectuals.  Our world is being self-destructed and
19     all the communities in all the world are being
20     self-destructed.
21  577                  Did you know the first anthropology
22     textbook I read in 1972 said you cannot make money out
23     of a sustainable society.  You have to destabilize it
24     to make exports and imports and then make profit.  The
25     only emphasis on this nation for 15 years has been
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 1     imports and exports and the destruction of every local
 2     community.  The end result is that we now have a
 3     poverty rate equal to the USA.
 4  578                  I enclose for you a tiny excerpt from
 5     Lorna Morrison's wonderful Senate Report on Poverty
 6     made 10 years ago:
 7                            "In the 10 years the government
 8                            has worked frantic with every
 9                            effort in their hearts to
10                            increase poverty to the fact
11                            that now the minimum wage pays
12                            half the value it did 10 years
13                            ago."  (As read)
14  579                  People are on half pay, everybody in
15     the minimum wage.  All the shopping centres, all the
16     small grocery stores, all the people that buy
17     commercial television.
18  580                  The CBC is the thing that nurtures a
19     community, nurtures a nation, and our world of
20     communities and nations and self-sustaining has been
21     under assault on a scale that you can't believe.
22  581                  I have included for you a manuscript
23     written by Alex Carrie (ph), I got it from Dr. Helen
24     Keldica (ph) in our Playhouse Theatre 10 years ago.  I
25     distributed 196 copies of that manuscript across Canada
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 1     and I handed one to Don Johnson 10 years ago and now he
 2     is head of the OPEC in Europe and they are working to
 3     set up free trade for the whole world.
 4  582                  This is the book Alex Carrie's widow
 5     published and it detailed a 90-year effort of the
 6     National Association of Manufacturers in the United
 7     States to prevent democracy from happening, to assure
 8     that the policies of the businessmen will always be the
 9     policies acted on by government.
10  583                  Now, you don't know about the
11     pressures for privatization, the pressures for -- oh,
12     yes, you must know, the overwhelming pressure for
13     privatizing, to deregulate and to sell the CBC.  But
14     that will be selling the people of Canada and selling
15     the preacher that nurtures the diversity of Canada.
16  584                  The United States has a unique
17     religious philosophy of individualism and a private
18     enterprise and private profit.  This has been
19     indoctrinated.  This and six other papers I include in
20     my files for you.
21  585                  I will very brief.  Just five minutes
22     more.
23  586                  I give you a package of information
24     so that you can look at it at your leisure, because I
25     know you think this is trying to distract, but I wanted
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 1     to beg you to show you these books.  I want to get away
 2     from the main part of my brief and just talk about the
 3     heart of it, and these five books talk about the heart
 4     of my brief.
 5  587                  The CBC is a foundation mark and a
 6     key, a key basis for any democracy that's still left in
 7     Canada.  That's why.
 8  588                  David Suzuki is the second man I have
 9     met in the last five years who told me personally that
10     the world systems of forests and soil and management
11     are gradually self-destructing and it will start to
12     show up within five years.  But the same thing that is
13     destroying the forests and destroying the fisheries and
14     destroying the land, poisoning mother's milk in the
15     Antarctic, is the thing that's poisoning the minds of
16     people with commercial television.  This nice gentleman
17     described the exquisite beauty of the United States'
18     commercial television, and the alternative is the CBC.
19  589                  I just want to remind you how
20     important that is.
21  590                  Here is another little book "The
22     Poverty of Affluence", an examination of the emptiness,
23     the emptiness of the heart and the souls of people in a
24     society where their whole society is talking about
25     selfishness and greed, as you mentioned, hate of your
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 1     neighbours, hate of your strange neighbours, and the
 2     CBC has been nurturing this nation.
 3  591                  I sat down with somebody the other
 4     day and they just spent six years in the forests of
 5     Burma fighting against a dictatorship.  I had to answer
 6     the lady from Indonesia who left the dictatorship in
 7     Indonesia 20 years ago and now her dictator friend's
 8     son is a friend of Jean Chrétien.  Just a little tiny
 9     story.
10  592                  And the last radical --
11  593                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Emberley --
12  594                  MR. EMBERLEY:  My last comment.
13  595                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  If you can
14     just summarize now.  Thank you.
15  596                  MR. EMBERLEY:  Yes.  My last
16     sentence.
17  597                  This book is the story about the
18     radical university students that drove Ronald Reagan
19     crazy and changed Ronald Reagan into a fanatic.  But
20     this book says that 90 per cent of the students that
21     were involved in the upsets in Berkeley, California
22     were students who had completed two or three and four
23     years of their studies, had come from all over the
24     United States to be in the most progressive university
25     in the whole of the United States and were the best
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 1     students and the best intellectuals in the whole
 2     student body, and they were the leaders of the riots
 3     fighting for democracy.  Incredible.  Incredible.  Like
 4     some of the people that appear at your CRTC hearings.
 5  598                  We want to thank you for coming and
 6     thank you for taking the time to listen to us.  I beg
 7     you to accept some documents which will give you, some
 8     information to confirm, I hope, that you have a mandate
 9     from God as well as from the government to look after
10     our CBC for the good of the Canadian people.
11  599                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Emberley, thank
12     you very much.
13  600                  No problem with you providing us with
14     documents.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissement
16  601                  MS PINSKY:  Mr. Ed Bachewich, please.
17     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
18  602                  MR. BACHEWICH:  Yes.  My name is
19     Ed Bachewich.  I have been thinking about this
20     presentation that I keep listening on the CBC, but I
21     kept putting it off and kept putting it off.  I decided
22     that I would attend to see what the other people were
23     talking about.  Since there is a few moments left, I
24     would like to take that time.
25  603                  Thank you very much for coming to
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 1     Winnipeg and entertaining us.
 2  604                  I have had withdrawals for the last
 3     two weeks.  I had been trying to find some place to
 4     listen to because right now the CBC is in a strike
 5     position and with a lot of repeats.  I really enjoy the
 6     Vinyl Cafe and I don't mind if I listen to it 25 times
 7     because I listen to it on Sunday and Saturday, even if
 8     I hear it twice, and there are some that I did miss, so
 9     I don't mind listening to a repeat the second time.
10  605                  What I don't like listening to is a
11     commercial radio that they have every place else. 
12     There is nothing out there.  There is crap out there.
13  606                  I turn on some stations and I get a
14     headache in about two minutes, and you know what kind
15     of stations I'm listening to at that time, some of
16     those rock stations.  They do not cover local artists. 
17     They do not cover Canadian artists.
18  607                  I think what we should have here at
19     all these hearings is local artists, local musicians,
20     local authors appearing and asking the Commission to
21     support the CBC.  These people would not get exposed in
22     the world if they did not have the CBC.  Where would
23     the Crash Test Dummies be without the CBC?  They would
24     still be playing some place in Ontario.  These people
25     get exposed by the fantastic organization that we have
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 1     across the provinces.
 2  608                  As Mr. Schulz mentioned in regards to
 3     advertising, I pay for every one of those stations
 4     on -- the commercial stations.  I pay for every one.  I
 5     have phoned them several times and I have told them
 6     every time you hear them say, "Well, let's dump the
 7     CBC.  It's costing us 10 cents a day."  I don't care if
 8     it costs me 10 cents a day.  It is more likely costing
 9     me more than 10 cents a day for all the advertising
10     that I pay for, as Mr. Schulz mentioned, I pay for
11     through buying products in the marketplace.  That's
12     fine, I pay for that, and I would like them to realize
13     that I would like to pay for CBC through my tax.
14  609                  What I think that we want to impress
15     on the Commission is that we need a policy in this
16     country for funding of the CBC, one that does not
17     just -- "Well, today I am not happy with Mr. Terry and
18     I will cut the CBC and I will cut the governor or I
19     will cut their funding because I don't like what Terry
20     said in B.C. because he might have been telling the
21     truth."  I want this to be a separate private arm of
22     the government, that they cannot interfere at every
23     whim because they don't like what is going on.
24  610                  One thing that I do regret is that we
25     do not have enough local programming.  Local news.  I'm
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 1     talking about sports news activities.  I have to say to
 2     the CBC in the morning I have to turn off and turn to
 3     1150 Steinbach so I can get news of the sports that are
 4     happening in the community.  There is no place else you
 5     can get it, so I do turn to Steinbach to get the sports
 6     news and activities of school sports, community sports,
 7     et cetera.  I would like to see more community
 8     involvement, community news.
 9  611                  Somebody mentioned earlier about the
10     problems that their programs, music, theatre was not
11     getting on the air.  That's not the fault of the CBC. 
12     Don't blame the CBC for that.  The CBC has been cut
13     back in funding left and right.  The CBC used to attend
14     the Winnipeg Folk Festival regularly.  They don't any
15     more because they have been cut back.  They used to
16     attend other festivals, other activities in the
17     community with films, et cetera.  They have been cut
18     back.  They can't attend that as often.
19  612                  It's not because the CBC doesn't want
20     to.  It's because they can't.
21  613                  I also regret the loss of some radio
22     personalities, but CRTC can't help with that.  Some of
23     them die; some of them retire.  I'm talking about
24     Max Ferguson, the gentleman we used to have on from
25     Toronto that just passed away, with his lovely record
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 1     collection.
 2  614                  One place that I do get world news
 3     and world information -- that's Clyde Gilmor -- world
 4     news and world information and discussion about the
 5     world news and world information from different
 6     viewpoints is the CBC.  That happens no place else.
 7  615                  I have two children and they have
 8     been brought up on CBC, as I was brought up, living up
 9     north and some places that was the only station you
10     could get, and they do listen to CBC, and they have an
11     eclectic taste of music.  They still listen to their
12     rock music or whatever, but they have an eclectic taste
13     of music.  That's only because of the CBC.  That's the
14     only place you can get it.
15  616                  We need the programs that the CBC
16     provides for intelligent discussion, Ideas, As It
17     Happens, I could go on.  Those of you who are here know
18     all those programs.  I listen to the CBC, oh, some
19     place at five o'clock in the morning until 10:00, 11:00
20     and then I go to sleep and get up at two o'clock and I
21     listen to the CBC because they provide some excellent,
22     excellent radio from across the ocean.  Excellent.
23  617                  Again, CBC provides the opportunity
24     for our artists, our musicians.  They should be here. 
25     Don't sell the CBC.  Don't have them do the cutbacks on
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 1     it.  If anything, we should expand it.  This is on CBC
 2     radio.
 3  618                  Because of the style that I live, I
 4     spend very little time on CBC television, but the
 5     programs that I do watch are excellent.  The programs I
 6     have mentioned, Suzuki, and all of those programs about
 7     Canada and what is happening in the world, those are
 8     excellent programs.  So I wouldn't want to see that
 9     cut.
10  619                  I mean, you can get X-Files, you can
11     get all the wrestling that you want every place else. 
12     Let's not go that way.  Let's provide more of the
13     Canadian programs, what's produced in Canada.  Then
14     these people could put in their films, their movies,
15     their shows that they put together in Canada on the
16     CBC.  That's what the CBC should be providing.
17  620                  What they have to realize is that
18     they can't be everything to everybody.  They have to
19     pick an audience.  I know on Saturday now they have
20     gone to a new programming on the AM to try to bring the
21     younger people in.  It's DNTO, Definitely Not The
22     Opera.  I enjoy it, but sometimes I get kind of bored
23     of it, and thank goodness there is Radio Two.
24  621                  So I will thank you for your time and
25     that's all I have to say.
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 1  622                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 2     Mr. Bachewich.
 3  623                  We now come to the end of the --
 4  624                  MR. EMBERLEY:  Madam Chairman, may I
 5     read Bob Clegg's (ph) one-page brief when you --
 6  625                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  I didn't hear you. 
 7     I'm sorry?
 8  626                  MR. EMBERLEY:  May I read Bob Clegg's
 9     one-page speech that I was assigned to read because he
10     cannot be here because of his bad voice?  The lady at
11     the desk said that you would --
12  627                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  The problem is,
13     now, after we finish the presentations, the CBC and
14     individuals from CBC are entitled to provide us with
15     their comments.  We are supposed to be finished at
16     five, so could you be very brief, Mr. Emberley, please.
17  628                  MR. EMBERLEY:  May I submit this in
18     writing?
19  629                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, surely.  Yes. 
20     No problem at all.
21  630                  MR. EMBERLEY:  Thank you.
22  631                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  So you don't want
23     to read it, then?
24  632                  MR. EMBERLEY:  No.  I don't think
25     that's fair to you.
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 1  633                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 2  634                  What I was proposing is we would
 3     have, say, a break for 10-15 minutes and then we will
 4     have these fine officials from CBC to provide us with
 5     their response.
 6     --- Short recess at 1651 / Courte suspension à 1651
 7     --- Upon resuming at 1703 / Reprise à 1703
 8  635                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  We now have someone
 9     from the CBC to provide us with their reply. 
10     Mr. John Bertrand.
11  636                  MR. BERTRAND:  Thank you very much,
12     Commissioner.
13  637                  My name is John Bertrand.  I'm the
14     Director of Radio for CBC Manitoba.
15  638                  Commissioner Cram, on behalf of
16     everyone at CBC and CBC Manitoba, I want to thank you
17     for the opportunity to be part of these public
18     consultations because it is really very important.  I
19     was sitting there frantically taking down notes and
20     listening to people.  It is very important to be here,
21     to listen to people, to hear their concerns, their
22     interests.
23  639                  Most of all, as I sat there, and I
24     think you could feel it throughout the room, as person
25     after person came up, their sense of passion, their
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 1     passion about the CBC, the amount that they are engaged
 2     in this process, and how much they care about the
 3     future of the CBC, of radio, television, all of it.  As
 4     I say, I was struck.  I kept writing down the word
 5     "passion".  People brought it up.  The presenters
 6     brought it up, and I was quite moved by it.  You
 7     couldn't help but be moved, I think, by people like
 8     Ann Pedersen and Valerie Wadepool and Brian McLeod,
 9     person after person.  I think it was again very
10     passionate and very moving.
11  640                  We will certainly endeavour to, in
12     writing, get back to all of the people who took the
13     time to present here today and talk more to them about
14     the things that they care about in terms of the CBC.  I
15     do thank the people for taking time out of their busy
16     day to be a part of this and to speak to this very
17     important issue.
18  641                  There is no doubt that today's
19     presentations have raised a lot of points that are
20     worth further discussion and we will be pleased to
21     follow up with this during the licence renewal
22     hearings.
23  642                  As I say, we have numerous people --
24     I'm the spokesperson I guess for CBC, but we have
25     numerous people.  You know that Jane Chalmers, my
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 1     counterpart, the Regional Director of Television,
 2     couldn't be here, she is in B.C. on an urgent family
 3     matter, but regional television is represented here
 4     today by Carl Karp.  He is the Programming Director for
 5     programming for CBC television in Manitoba and
 6     Saskatchewan.  We are represented by people from
 7     Radio-Canada.  René Fontaine is the Director of
 8     Radio-Canada in the prairies; Lionel Bonneville is the
 9     Director of Television for Radio-Canada throughout the
10     west.  Again, people who are part of these hearings.
11  643                  There has been some dancing about
12     because you know there are parallel hearings, but I
13     have to tell you that, as I say, the word "passion" and
14     the sense of commitment that we heard today was
15     extremely moving.  Again, we thank you very much for
16     allowing us to be part of this process.
17  644                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
18     Mr. Bertrand.
19  645                  MR. BERTRAND:  Thank you.
20  646                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Now apparently the
21     room is being rearranged and we will reconvene at
22     six o'clock.  Commissioner Wylie and myself will both
23     be here.
24  647                  Thank you very much, everybody.
25  648                  MS PINSKY:  Actually -- sorry -- we
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 1     are not going to be combining the rooms apparently --
 2  649                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, we are not?
 3  650                  MS PINSKY:  -- because it may take
 4     too long, so if you wouldn't mind going into the next
 5     room where we do have the translation services
 6     available, that is where we will continue at
 7     six o'clock.
 8     --- Recess at 1706 / Suspension à 1706
 9     --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1800
10  651                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good day, ladies
11     and gentlemen, and welcome to this public consultation
12     on the CBC.
13  652                  Bonjour mesdames et messieurs. 
14     Bienvenue à cette consultation publique.
15  653                  My name is Barbara Cram and I am on
16     the CRTC.  On my left is Madame Andrée Wylie, the
17     CRTC's Vice-Chair of Broadcasting.
18  654                  Mon nom est Barbara Cram et à ma
19     gauche est Andrée Wylie.  We are both on the CRTC.
20  655                  We are here to gather your views and
21     comments on CBC radio and television.  In your opinion,
22     how should the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation fulfil
23     its role in the coming years.
24  656                  The CBC is a national public service,
25     broadcasting in English as well as in French.  It plays
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 1     an important role in the Canadian Broadcasting system. 
 2     Today many elements are constantly being added to the
 3     broadcasting system as new technologies multiply,
 4     converge, open up new horizons, and increasingly offer
 5     new services.
 6  657                  In this context, we want to know what
 7     are your needs and expectations as viewers and
 8     listeners of the CBC.
 9  658                  Given that, it is very important that
10     the Commission hears what you have to say.  We must not
11     lose sight of the fact that the CRTC is a public
12     organization that serves Canadian citizens.  In this
13     capacity, we are responsible to you.  This is why my
14     fellow Commissioners and myself find it vital to come
15     and meet with you to discuss those issues, and why we
16     are holding this series of regional consultations from
17     one end of the country to the other in 11 cities,
18     starting today until the 18th of March.
19  659                  Ces consultations vous donnent
20     l'occasion de nous faire part de vos opinions sur le
21     rôle de Radio-Canada, le genre d'émissions qu'il vous
22     propose et l'orientation qu'il devrait se donner à
23     l'aube du nouveau millénaire -- je m'excuse -- aussi
24     bien la partie nationale que les parties régionales et
25     locales.
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 1  660                  Ces consultations se font dans
 2     l'esprit d'établir avec vous un dialogue ouvert et
 3     d'être à l'écoute de vos préoccupations.  Tous vos
 4     commentaires feront partie du dossier public et seront
 5     ajoutés à celui de l'audience publique qui s'ouvrira à
 6     Hull le 25 mai prochain.
 7  661                  At the upcoming hearing in Hull on
 8     May 25 the Commission will examine the CBC's
 9     application for the renewal of its licences, including
10     radio, television and its specialty services Newsworld
11     and Réseau de l'information.
12  662                  You can also take part in that public
13     hearing by sending your written comments to the CRTC. 
14     If you wish to do so, please remember to refer to the
15     specific licence renewals being examined when you file
16     your comments.
17  663                  Now I would like to come back to
18     today's consultations.  Please allow me to introduce
19     the CRTC staff who will be assisting us today.
20  664                  Rod Lahay is from our Broadcasting
21     Planning Services, Mr. Gary Krushen is the Director of
22     our Winnipeg Regional Office, and Carolyn Pinsky is our
23     Legal Advisor.  Please feel free to call on them with
24     any questions you might have about the process today or
25     any other matter.
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 1  665                  So that you will all have the
 2     opportunity to speak, we ask that you please limit your
 3     presentations to 10 minutes, as these consultations are
 4     a forum designed especially for you and we want to
 5     listen to as many participants as possible.  We will
 6     not ask any questions unless we need clarification.
 7  666                  At the end of this session,
 8     representatives from the local CBC stations will have a
 9     chance to offer their views, as they are naturally very
10     interested in the issues we are discussing here today.
11  667                  Before we start, I would like to ask
12     our legal counsel to go over some of the housekeeping
13     matters regarding the content of this consultation.
14  668                  MS PINSKY:  Just to explain a bit of
15     the process to the people who will be presenting today,
16     the Secretary will call approximately 10 presenters at
17     a time.  When he does so, if you would step up and come
18     to the table.  The Secretary will then, in turn, call
19     each presenter individually.
20  669                  When you are called, please make sure
21     that your microphone is turned on so that the court
22     reporter can transcribe properly.
23  670                  We have translation services
24     available today, and for those who are present but who
25     don't wish to make a presentation, we do have forms
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 1     that you can fill out if you wish to leave some written
 2     comments with the Commission, and they will be put on
 3     the public file.
 4  671                  Thank you.
 5                                                        1805
 6  672                  MR. KRUSHEN:  I would now like to
 7     call the first group of presenters:  Garnet Angeconeb,
 8     Ross Madder, Dave Walley, Tirzah Sharpe, Tim Watts,
 9     Rita Menzies, Edward Hiebert, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier
10     and Jeff Brennan.  Would you please come forward.
11     --- Short pause / Courte pause
12  673                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Mr. Angeconeb, you can
13     commence when you are ready.
14     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
15  674                  MR. ANGECONEB:  Thank you very much.
16  675                  Members of the Canadian-Radio
17     Television and Telecommunications Commission, ladies
18     and gentlemen, my name is Garnet Angeconeb, I am a
19     First Nations person from Sioux Lookout in northwestern
20     Ontario.  I am a member of the Lac Seul First Nation,
21     an aboriginal community near Sioux Lookout.
22  676                  I appear before you today in my
23     capacity as Executive Director of Wawatay Native
24     Communication Society.  I am honoured to make this
25     short presentation to the CRTC's public consultation on
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 1     the CBC.
 2  677                  You may be wondering why a northern
 3     Ontario-based entity is making its presentation here in
 4     Manitoba.  Well, for us living in Sioux Lookout,
 5     Ontario it is so much easier to drive six hours to get
 6     to Winnipeg than it is to drive 16 hours to get to
 7     Sudbury, the next nearest location of these
 8     consultation meetings.  Besides, I like the snow here.
 9  678                  First let me talk about the
10     organization that I represent here today.  Wawatay is a
11     First Nations communications organization which works
12     in northern Ontario serving an area commonly referred
13     to as the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation.
14  679                  Within the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation, or
15     NAN, lies some 48 First Nation Cree and Ojibway
16     communities.  The majority of these communities are
17     accessible only by air.
18  680                  The NAN territory covers a huge tract
19     of land from the Manitoba border in the west to the
20     Quebec border in the east, and generally north of the
21     50th parallel.  That area that I talk about is
22     approximately the size of France.  The population of
23     these 48 communities vary in size from 100 to 1,700.
24  681                  This year marks the 25th anniversary
25     of Wawatay.  Since our humble beginnings publishing a
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 1     newsletter and operating an HF radio system, Wawatay
 2     has grown into a modern multi-media organization whose
 3     services include radio, television and print.  We
 4     publish a trilingual publication called the Wawatay
 5     News in the Ojibway, Cree and English languages.
 6  682                  Wawatay also broadcasts regional
 7     native language television and radio programs to most
 8     of the communities in NAN.  The Wawatay Radio Network
 9     is carried by ExpressVu through an arrangement good
10     working relationship with TVOntario.  The Wawatay Radio
11     Network reaches 39 Nishnawbe-Aski Nation communities.
12  683                  In regards to television, native
13     language programs are broadcast each Sunday by
14     accessing the Ontario Legislative Assembly channel
15     during its down time.  Wawatay's native language
16     television programming is received throughout the NAN
17     communities, including through cable systems in the
18     Province of Ontario.
19  684                  Wawatay has witnessed many
20     communication developments and other positive changes
21     in our part of the world over the last 25 years, from
22     using a hand-driven Gestetner ditto machine for
23     printing the Wawatay News, to using the Second World
24     War communications technology called high frequency
25     radios, to the introduction of computerized newspaper
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 1     production and the introduction of basic telephone
 2     services and from the development of community radio
 3     stations to the development of First Nations regional
 4     radio and television services and the limited
 5     introduction of the Internet service in some
 6     communities.  Wawatay also watched the introduction of
 7     television service to the remote north, starting with
 8     television stations beamed by satellite from the U.S.
 9     to the introduction of Canadian television services
10     such as the CBC and TVOntario.
11  685                  Our mandate is to protect and enhance
12     indigenous languages and cultures of the Nishnawbe-Aski
13     Nation through the use of appropriate technology.
14  686                  Part of our mandate is realized by
15     co-operating and working closely with governments and
16     other interested partners.  For example, Wawatay has
17     worked closely with the federal Department of Canadian
18     Heritage under the Northern Native Broadcast Access
19     Program in the:
20                            "... production and distribution
21                            of radio and television
22                            programming that meet the
23                            cultural, linguistic and
24                            information needs of Aboriginal
25                            people."
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 1  687                  Over the years, Wawatay has worked
 2     closely with many federal and provincial government
 3     agencies and organizations such as Industry Canada, the
 4     Ontario Legislative Assembly, TVOntario and the CBC.
 5  688                  Like the CBC, Wawatay has considered
 6     its future position as a public broadcaster:  What
 7     impacts this has on the programming we produce, and on
 8     the relationship we have with our audiences.
 9  689                  Wawatay has worked to meet its
10     service commitments within an environment of extreme
11     fiscal constraints and fast-paced technological change.
12  690                  And, like the CBC, Wawatay has
13     explored, and continues to explore alternative revenue
14     sources with the aim of securing long-term
15     organizational stability.
16  691                  I will now respond to the four sets
17     of questions that were asked of these consultation
18     hearings.
19  692                  Since the 1974 announcement of the
20     Accelerated Coverage Plan to extend CBC radio and
21     television service to small unserved communities, many
22     of the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation communities have received
23     a patchwork of both CBC radio and television services. 
24     Some communities do not receive CBC radio or
25     television.  The patchwork of CBC television comes
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 1     through various distribution systems, for example CBC
 2     North via satellite, through microwave towers,
 3     satellite and cable and individual receivers.
 4  693                  Under the 1974 ACP only those
 5     communities with a population base of 500 people were
 6     eligible to receive CBC radio and television services,
 7     which left out the majority of our First Nations.  For
 8     example, on the western side of NAN this meant only a
 9     handful of communities received CBC service:  Big Trout
10     Lake, Fort Hope, Sandy Lake, Osnaburg and Pikangikum. 
11     Although the intent of the ACP was good, it still did
12     not provide CBC radio and television services to most
13     NAN communities and, to a certain degree, some northern
14     isolated communities still do not receive basic
15     Canadian radio and television services, that is the
16     CBC.
17  694                  Over the years, however, through
18     other satellite technologies, some smaller NAN
19     communities and households have managed to beam in some
20     kind of CBC television service.
21  695                  Within NAN the CBC has not fully
22     provided its services, and therefore has not fulfilled
23     its role as a public broadcaster.  The federal
24     government, together with the CBC, must ensure the
25     essential Canadian broadcast services of the CBC are
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 1     received in every household of the Nishnawbe-Aski
 2     Nation before the turn of the century.
 3  696                  Limited access to basic CBC service
 4     in our communities means that our communities -- our
 5     concerns, tragedies and celebrations -- are virtually
 6     unknown to Canadians nationally and regionally.
 7  697                  A few years ago Wawatay carried the
 8     CBC radio feed when the Wawatay Radio Network was not
 9     on the air.  This allowed those smaller communities to
10     receive CBC radio who would not have received it
11     otherwise.  This is no longer the case, and so many of
12     the NAN communities do not receive CBC service of any
13     kind.
14  698                  For those communities on the western
15     side of the Nishnawbe-Aski Nation that receive CBC
16     radio, Thunder Bay CBC provides a weekly one hour
17     aboriginal language show.  This radio show, called
18     Anishinabie Wingwan, has been on the air since the
19     mid-1970s.  The CBC used to carry a special budget for
20     this program.  However, because of financial cuts,
21     Anishinabie Wingwan is now immersed into the main CBC
22     Thunder Bay operational budget and so the CBC does not
23     have a special budget for aboriginal radio programming,
24     as it did once.  CBC Sudbury, which serves a
25     significant aboriginal population in northeastern
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 1     Ontario, does not produce or broadcast any aboriginal
 2     language programming.  They should, and they must.
 3  699                  In regions where there is a
 4     significant aboriginal population, the CBC must play a
 5     special role to promote aboriginal language
 6     programming, and also to strengthen its aboriginal
 7     content and presence in regional English language
 8     programming.  This would not only strengthen its
 9     programming, but would also complement existing
10     aboriginal programming.  For example, the CBC Thunder
11     Bay region does not cover the same area as the Wawatay
12     Radio Network.  The CBC Thunder Bay coverage area
13     includes aboriginal communities along the north shore
14     of Lake Superior, the Kenora and For Frances regions
15     and the southern parts of northwestern Ontario which
16     are not served by our Wawatay Radio Network.
17  700                  CBC radio must also promote a
18     national and, wherever possible, a regional aboriginal
19     issues show.  Perhaps it is time to reinstate Our
20     Native Land or replace it with something similar.
21  701                  In conclusion, then, Wawatay treats
22     communications as a cultural industry.  Aboriginal
23     access to communications media has given the Cree and
24     Ojibway people of northern Ontario new opportunities to
25     learn about each other, to participate economically,
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 1     and to interact with a Canadian culture that surrounds,
 2     yet rarely penetrates our daily lives.
 3  702                  As aboriginal people living in remote
 4     northern Ontario, and indeed in remote Canada, the
 5     social, cultural and geographic distances which have
 6     for so long separated aboriginal and non-aboriginals
 7     will only be lengthened if the CBC retreats from its
 8     commitment to serve all Canadians.
 9  703                  The work of the CRTC is very
10     important.  I know the work you are doing will allow
11     communications systems to bring people together, like
12     Canadians talking to Canadians.  It is our view that
13     aboriginal and national broadcasters will contribute
14     most if we complement each others work and share our
15     national resources.
16  704                  I thank you very much for listening
17     to me.
18  705                  Meegwetch!
19     --- Applause / Applaudissement
20  706                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
21     Mr. Angeconeb.
22  707                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Commissioner
23     Cram.
24  708                  I would now like to call Mr. Ross
25     Madder.  Is Mr. Madder in the room?  I don't believe
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 1     so.  No.
 2                                                        1817
 3  709                  Then we will move on to Mr. Dave
 4     Walley.
 5     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 6  710                  MR. WALLEY:  Hello.  I think the CBC
 7     is doing an absolutely abysmal job in the third area
 8     that it has license to operate in.
 9  711                  Because I don't think anybody else in
10     this room is probably aware of this third area I would
11     like to start with what I am calling Information
12     Industry Bingo.  It's a chart that along the top has
13     publishing, broadcasting and interacting.  Along the
14     side, text, audio, video and data.  I would like to
15     fill in and demonstrate just exactly what is missing
16     from this picture.
17  712                  I would start with publishing text as
18     the oldest information industry.  It started with
19     Guttenberg when they started to publish books.
20  713                  Publishing audio you can think of as
21     records -- these days we would call them CDs.  Records
22     is fine with me.
23  714                  You can also publish video, you can
24     produce video tapes for rental or for sale.  So I would
25     just call that videos.  And nowadays you can publish
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 1     data, which is the other use for CD-ROM.  Retail
 2     software is the only word I can come up with for it.
 3  715                  So you can fill in this entire column
 4     of the four different types of data.
 5  716                  You can do a similar thing for
 6     interactivity.  If you want to interact with text, you
 7     send mail.  So the post office would fill in that
 8     information industry square.
 9  717                  If you would like to interact with
10     audio, you use the telephone.
11  718                  I'm going to skip over this square
12     for just one second.
13  719                  If you take a look at broadcasting,
14     you can broadcast text, and it has actually been going
15     on for many decades.  The newspaper is something closer
16     to broadcasting than if you were publishing books, but
17     it's not really all the way there, so I might put it
18     somewhere on the borderline.  The difference between
19     publishing and broadcasting is that in broadcasting you
20     are trying to get information quickly, and you are
21     trying to get it out to as many people as you possibly
22     can, as cheaply as you possibly can, and newspapers go
23     a distance to doing that.
24  720                  The first real text broadcasting,
25     though, occurred with the invention of the stock
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 1     ticker, and it has been around for decades.  It's maybe
 2     not quite as used these days because you can use the
 3     Internet now -- which is in another square -- but if I
 4     can fill that in for now as the stock ticker machine.
 5  721                  If you look at broadcasting audio,
 6     that would be radio, and is the subject of what we are
 7     talking about today.
 8  722                  If you broadcast video you would call
 9     that television.
10  723                  Then I would like to return to this
11     square over here which is interactive video.  It has
12     been talked about for many decades.  It has been
13     variously called the videophone or teleconferencing,
14     and it is beginning to catch on now because of the
15     industry in this square, and that is the Internet.
16  724                  It is important to note that data
17     includes all of these.  If you can deal with data you
18     can also send video, audio or text, and so the
19     videophone is really contained within its neighbour,
20     the Internet.  So the Internet is now starting to take
21     over that job.
22  725                  But I did notice an ad on television
23     the other night for the videophone.  It's making a big
24     comeback after a couple of decades of not being used. 
25     I think it wasn't used because people don't want to
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 1     answer the videophone on a bad hair day, but other than
 2     that I think it's maybe starting to come into its own.
 3  726                  The interesting thing that I see here
 4     is that there is a missing square.  Data broadcasting. 
 5     I would challenge anybody to give me an example of data
 6     broadcasting that is going on today.  The closest that
 7     you could come is an Internet technology called "Push",
 8     and it, like the newspaper, sits on the line.  It's not
 9     true data broadcasting.  The difference between
10     interactivity and broadcasting is interactivity is
11     two-way and broadcasting is one-way.  Broadcasting to
12     one person costs the exact same amount as broadcasting
13     to a million people.  So if you are a broadcaster, you
14     want as many people to tune in as possible.
15  727                  "Push" gets halfway there.  If you
16     can get a million times increase in efficiency with
17     data broadcasting, "Push" gives you about 1,000 times
18     increase in efficiency.  A thousand times increase in
19     efficiency is not bad, but it's only part way there.
20  728                  So the question is:  Why is that
21     blank?
22  729                  The second question, I guess, is: 
23     What would you put in that square if you could?  I can
24     think of a number of things that I would put in that
25     square.  First of all, I would broadcast popular data
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 1     about Canada to Canadians.
 2  730                  What is popular?  Well, it's all the
 3     stuff you can't broadcast on the Internet because it
 4     bogs down when you get too many hits.  If you have a
 5     popular web site it will bankrupt you, because you
 6     can't afford the servers.  An example of this, the last
 7     example I can think of, is the dancing baby.  Whoever
 8     invented that and put it on the Internet could not keep
 9     up with demand.  The Mars probe was another example. 
10     NASA had to spend millions of dollars -- and in fact
11     did come up with several millions of dollars in the
12     course of a couple of days -- to buy enough computers
13     to satisfy, or try to satisfy the demand for pictures
14     from Mars, and they simply couldn't do it.
15  731                  To data broadcast that information
16     would be simple.  To send information to one person
17     would cost exactly the same amount to send it to a
18     million people if you broadcast it.  The same way as
19     television.  When you have a television program you
20     want as many people to tune in as possible because it
21     doesn't cost you anything if they do.  When they turn
22     their TVs on or off, you don't notice.  On the
23     Internet, when you get a hit you notice it.  The
24     Internet is not free, it costs about 10 cents a hit
25     right now.  So every time somebody looks at your web
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 1     site, if you are trying to pay for it, it will cost you
 2     10 cents every time they take a look.
 3  732                  So if you are going to have an
 4     Internet web site, don't be too popular, because it
 5     will sink you.
 6  733                  But what I would put on a broadcast
 7     channel, if I could, I would put the news on.  I would
 8     try to stem the tide of kids who are tuning out of
 9     television and I would broadcast a few games.  If
10     possible, I would broadcast games made by Canadians.  I
11     would broadcast business directories, which I think is
12     in the economic industry of every business in Canada
13     for people to get information about that business.  I
14     would broadcast weather information, I would broadcast
15     satellite maps of the weather as it was happening.  I
16     would broadcast job listings.
17  734                  It's not going to happen until
18     somebody starts.  You can't expect anybody to broadcast
19     anything as long as there are no receivers, and you
20     can't expect anybody to buy a receiver until something
21     is being broadcast.  So nothing is going to happen
22     until somebody goes on air.
23  735                  The CBC, interestingly enough, has a
24     licence to broadcast digital data, and has had a
25     licence since 1988 when the CRTC allowed them to use
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 1     the vertical blanking interval of the television signal
 2     and what is called the SCMO of FM radio, an FM radio
 3     sideband.  They have had that licence for over a decade
 4     and have not seen fit to use it.
 5  736                  I can only guess at what the argument
 6     is, but I think it goes something along the lines of: 
 7     Nobody has receivers so why would we broadcast.  Of
 8     course, the people who would maybe buy receivers aren't
 9     going to buy one because nobody is broadcasting
10     anything.
11  737                  They have a licence.  They have a
12     licence to broadcast radio, they have a licence to
13     broadcast television, they have a licence to broadcast
14     data, and they have had that licence for over a decade. 
15     They could be broadcasting educational data to schools
16     as an alternative to the Internet.  Of course they
17     would not broadcast pornography, they would not
18     broadcast hate literature, you could choose the best of
19     the net and broadcast only it.
20  738                  For less than $100 a school in the
21     north or in the south could connect up the entire
22     school network to this continuous stream of porn-free
23     data.
24  739                  I think people are tearing their hair
25     out these days trying to figure out how to stop
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 1     pornography from getting to the schools through the
 2     Internet.  I'm afraid the technical answer is:  You
 3     can't.  If you make it more difficult for kids to get
 4     pornography then the kids who know how to get around
 5     all the locks and codes just become the most popular
 6     kids in school, because they can break those codes and
 7     they can get the pornography to any child who wants it.
 8  740                  I think this opens up legal liability
 9     to the schools for providing pornography to children. 
10     I think the solution is easy.  Broadcast a porn-free
11     stream of data to the schools for $100 per school.
12  741                  A northern school, if they can
13     receive CBC's signals, could also receive this stream
14     of data.
15  742                  I think that you could also
16     anticipate that this system could be very helpful in
17     the Y2K crisis.  I have heard lots about the Y2K in
18     relation to hydro, and I have heard it in relation to
19     the phone system and everything else, I haven't heard
20     anybody discuss it in terms of the Internet.  But as a
21     computer-based system with computers of all makes and
22     models and no control whatsoever, I expect the Internet
23     is going to have its problems.
24  743                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me,
25     Mr. Walley.
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 1  744                  MR. WALLEY:  Yes.
 2  745                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you
 3     summarize, please?
 4  746                  MR. WALLEY:  Use it or lose it.  I
 5     think the CRTC should tell the CBC that if they have no
 6     use for it they should lose the licence.
 7  747                  Thank you.
 8                                                        1830
 9  748                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
10     Mr. Walley.
11  749                  Could you call the next presenter.
12  750                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
13  751                  I would now like to call Ms Tirzah
14     Sharpe.
15     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16  752                  MS SHARPE:  I called when I heard on
17     the radio that this was happening.  I didn't really
18     expect to say anything and haven't anything and haven't
19     anything prepared.  But the radio is very important to
20     me and I listen to CBC continuously.
21  753                  The secondhand stores sell radios for
22     about $5.00 each, and I have one on each floor of my
23     house, including the laundry room.
24  754                  I see that you have three questions
25     you would like to address, and so I hope I can say
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 1     something relevant to some of them.
 2  755                  How well does the CBC serve the
 3     public on a regional and a national basis?
 4  756                  All I can speak for is myself, and I
 5     am a nurse.  I have nothing to do with the
 6     communications industry.  I simply know what I expect
 7     of the CBC and how disturbed I am when I hear stories
 8     about how there are cutbacks and I lose some of the
 9     programs that I like; and I hear stories that the
10     people in charge, the Board of Governors, are really
11     not into communications or into the fields that I am
12     interested in at all, and that really disturbs me.
13  757                  I am in my 60s.  I have listened to
14     the radio -- the CBC radio since out in the bush in the
15     '30s we heard Hitler and some really scratchy things
16     over the radio.  Then through the '40s we had the
17     plays.  I just have really good memories of radio and I
18     depend on it very much.
19  758                  I associate heating hot water on the
20     wood stove and doing the laundry on Saturdays with
21     opera, which I would never otherwise have been
22     associated with at all.
23  759                  My kids, when they were small in the
24     '60s, always listened -- always were accustomed to
25     having this on the radio, and now my grandkids ride
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 1     with me and they know you do not touch the radio in the
 2     car -- in grandma's car, because that is the CBC.
 3  760                  I have a network of friends.  As we
 4     grow older we stay in touch across the country.  The
 5     friend -- the best friend in Toronto, who is in a
 6     wheelchair, can't get out much, we phone and we compare
 7     notes, "Did you hear this on the CBC?  Did you hear
 8     that?  What did you think of so and so?"  The young
 9     nephew in Surrey, B.C., I speak to him and we have a
10     joke about, you know, did he watch Céline Dion, or
11     whatever her name is, and it's a continuity for us.
12  761                  I'm interested in Canada.  I really
13     like Canada, the idea of Canada as we grew up with, and
14     I see this threatened in so many ways, and I see this
15     one link across the country which reminds me, and I
16     really fear to grow old without this.  That may seem
17     really trivial to you, but I really depend on this
18     radio station.  I like to think that it reaches all
19     parts of Canada.
20  762                  In the '40s we lived out in the woods
21     and my mother was a school teacher and we would stay up
22     late -- I think it was Friday night, or was it Sunday
23     night -- and hear the Northern Messenger to the North. 
24     It was broadcast -- the messages were broadcast from
25     Winnipeg to places right across the north, and we would
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 1     look on the map and see where all these places were. 
 2     Later that was an interest for me, that I nursed in the
 3     north, and now I'm still really interested in the
 4     aboriginal parts of our country, and I like to think
 5     that we could see their celebrations and their
 6     tragedies and, you know, their goings on, and that they
 7     could be part of our community as well.
 8  763                  I pay my taxes.  I think this is a
 9     really legitimate use for my taxes.  I get really angry
10     when I see that I still pay taxes, as much as ever or
11     more, and the things that I value are going, and one of
12     them is the CBC.  They say if you scratch a Winnipeger
13     you find a farmer, it's not so true now, but still
14     those farmers and those northern relatives are still
15     part of our history.  I would like to see more farm
16     stuff on the radio.
17  764                  Okay.  I don't watch the television
18     very much.  I watch the television, but the CBC is just
19     another channel.  I don't watch very much sports, and I
20     wish they would get out of sports.  I wish they would
21     have less American stuff and more Canadian.  There's
22     lots of American stuff if I want to watch it.
23  765                  I can't think what else I was going
24     to say.  Is my time up?
25  766                  I like the local news.  I really
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 1     admire how the radio is managing without the
 2     technicians, who are on strike, and the other morning I
 3     woke up early -- I get up at 5:30 and I put the radio
 4     on and I like to hear the CBC.  Anyway, in that early
 5     morning spot there was somebody from Ontario, southern
 6     Ontario.  It made me realize how I really don't care
 7     about how many fall suppers there are in Belleville,
 8     you know, I want to hear about the fall suppers in
 9     Hedingly and Amaranth, and I want to hear the local
10     news as well as the connections with the rest of the
11     country.
12  767                  I have to say, if I am to tell about
13     what I expect from the CBC, or what I like about the
14     CBC, I like no advertising.  I like one place where I
15     am not pressured to buy something --
16     --- Applause / Applaudissement
17  768                  MS SHARPE:  And I know our whole
18     country runs on advertising and marketing, okay, but it
19     is such a relief, and I think helps to keep us sane, to
20     have one place where there is no advertising, and to
21     have a rational viewpoint where we hear objective
22     viewpoints and in-depth reporting.
23  769                  Sunday morning is still good, but it
24     used to be better when we had the reporters from around
25     the world.  Some of us stay home from church in order
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 1     to hear that.  No kidding.  You know, that's true. 
 2     Where you can hear what is really happening in Rwanda,
 3     not just how many were killed or -- you know, that that
 4     is really important.
 5  770                  I think that's all I have to say. 
 6     Thank you very much.
 7  771                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 8     Ms Sharpe.
 9     --- Applause / Applaudissement
10  772                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary?
11                                                        1837
12  773                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
13  774                  I would now like to call Ms Rita
14     Menzies.
15     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
16  775                  MS MENZIES:  Members of the CRTC and
17     ladies and gentlemen, my name is Rita Menzies and I am
18     General Manager of the Manitoba Chamber Orchestra.  I
19     am here on behalf of the orchestra to speak to the
20     significance of CBC radio in Canada.
21  776                  We have an orchestra that receives
22     rave reviews and plays a significant role in the
23     cultural network here in Winnipeg.  We have produced a
24     recording with the Swedish company Veiss (ph).  These
25     recordings are distributed around the world.
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 1  777                  How has this come about?  The CBC has
 2     given us a national and an international platform.  We
 3     cannot afford to tour.  Without the CBC there is no way
 4     a Winnipeg orchestra, so far removed from other
 5     centres, could take advantage of its excellence, that
 6     is produce recordings and garner Juno nominations.
 7  778                  Furthermore, CBC brings to Winnipeg
 8     music information from around the world.  Hence, we do
 9     better programming.  I cannot imagine the musical life
10     in Winnipeg without the rich national and international
11     network and ancillary recording services provided by
12     the local presence of the CBC.
13  779                  Without the CBC the Manitoba Chamber
14     Orchestra would not have produced all of its
15     recordings, would not be established nationally, and
16     probably would not be here 27 years after its
17     inception.
18  780                  CBC radio does what no other radio
19     station in Canada does, that is, it records live
20     performances for subsequent broadcast, both regionally,
21     nationally and internationally.
22  781                  What does this mean for Canadian solo
23     artists, for Canadian creators, Canadian orchestras and
24     Canadian audiences?
25  782                  Number one:  Many Canadian artists
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 1     with international profiles owe their success to
 2     initial exposure on CBC radio, and I give you as an
 3     example people like Ben Heppner -- tenor Ben Heppner;
 4     pianist John Kamua Parker (ph); pianist Angela Hewitt.
 5  783                  Number two:  The CBC radio provides
 6     additional income for musicians in Canadian orchestras.
 7  784                  Number three:  CBC radio makes music
 8     performed by Canadian artists available to Canadians of
 9     all ages.  It is not expensive.  All you need to have
10     is a radio.
11  785                  Number four:  CBC radio presentations
12     reflect the diversity of how events are presented in
13     different parts of the country.  It makes us aware of
14     our cultural diversity.
15  786                  Number five:  Regional programming
16     promotes local musicians and local venues when live
17     performances are broadcast across the country.
18  787                  Number six:  Live performances on CBC
19     radio ensure the future of Canadian classical
20     repertoire, as the CBC continues to commission new
21     works and as these and other new Canadian works are
22     performed.  In this way composers are given an
23     opportunity to have their works heard on a national
24     basis, and the opportunity for, perhaps,
25     rebroadcasting.
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 1  788                  In conclusion, I would like to say
 2     that CBC radio defines how we as Canadians see
 3     ourselves and how we are seen by others.  The CBC has
 4     set high standards in all aspects of the industry, and
 5     these are recognized all over the world.
 6  789                  Canadian culture is unique, as is our
 7     Canadian judicial system, our political system, or even
 8     our history.  There is immense interest in Canadian
 9     studies in the universities of other countries, hence
10     the expansion of Canadian studies faculties in so many
11     major American and European universities.  Canadian
12     culture is a significant aspect of the programs in
13     these institutions, and CBC radio makes this culture
14     available to the world.
15  790                  Thank you.
16     --- Applause / Applaudissement
17  791                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
18     Ms Menzies.
19                                                        1843
20  792                  Mr. Secretary.
21  793                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
22  794                  That completes the people who were in
23     the room when I called the first list.  However, just
24     so I don't miss anyone, I would like to recall the
25     following names.
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 1  795                  If you are present in the room now,
 2     please come up to the table.
 3  796                  Ross Madder, Tim Watts, Edward
 4     Hiebert, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier and Jeff Brennan.
 5     --- Short pause / Courte pause
 6  797                  MR. KRUSHEN:  You may begin when you
 7     are ready.
 8     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 9  798                  MR. HIEBERT:  My apologies.  I have
10     just come from another meeting.
11  799                  Let me begin by saying that I have a
12     very high value of what the CBC's services are. 
13     Primarily the information sources are what I find of
14     the greatest importance, news, the special reports, The
15     Fifth Estate, et cetera.  I find them of an extremely
16     high value in comparison to what the other media have
17     available for us.
18  800                  So that as a service to Canadians on
19     the basis of what I understand why the CBC was created
20     beforehand -- or why the CBC was created as far as the
21     connecting link within Canada, I think it is a very
22     important institution.
23  801                  I want to, however, bring forward, in
24     a sense, two or three concerns as to what I think is
25     limiting or devaluating the services of the CBC
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 1     unnecessarily.
 2  802                  The issues would be, one is the
 3     accountability, or the lack of it, especially if
 4     listeners have concerns.
 5  803                  The second is insufficient access to
 6     the information that the CBC is reporting on.  There is
 7     no way of connecting to it.
 8  804                  The other issue is somewhat related
 9     to it.  So I will start with the first one.
10  805                  On the issue of accountability, I
11     have certainly taken forward, through an extensive
12     number of letters through different departments, and
13     one of them would have been the noon show over a number
14     of years ago, ended up also bringing it forward to the
15     ombudsman, and my perception and feeling in comparison
16     to a legal process, of which I have some -- I'm not a
17     lawyer, I am a layperson but I have some familiarity
18     having been before the Public Utilities Board and also
19     having gone through some courts, I have some
20     understanding of what court -- of what due process is,
21     and it's my perception that when people bring forward
22     complaints to the CBC they are more met with basically
23     the big black box having a certain amount of power and
24     exercising it inappropriately, and just simply because
25     they can control it.
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 1  806                  I think there needs to be more
 2     pressures put on the CBC that they truly be
 3     accountable, not only to Parliament but also to the
 4     listeners, and to do that in a substantive way and not
 5     just inform and claim that they are doing -- even with
 6     the ombudsman.  Because even in the process of going
 7     through before the ombudsman I did not feel that I was
 8     getting anything that I would approximate due process.
 9  807                  This is not the time to go through
10     the complete thing, but my perception was he went
11     through it and made some arbitrary and somewhat early
12     decisions which basically ended up dismissing it, and
13     without having really understood what the issues were.
14  808                  I mean that would be the first part. 
15     So that on the issues of accountability I think there
16     is a significant amount of ground that needs to be
17     looked at and that the CBC must be held more
18     accountable.
19  809                  On the other aspect, and that is on
20     the aspect of information and the access to
21     information, I believe that on the one hand there is
22     excellent information that the CBC is providing with
23     regards to news and the other documentaries, et cetera. 
24     However, if that information is only supposed to be an
25     aspect of consumption, that it's nice to hear, et
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 1     cetera, that may be one thing.  I think, though, as a
 2     function of the CBC it must be much deeper than that. 
 3     It must be a way of providing us access to that
 4     information.
 5  810                  I find more often than not -- let's
 6     take the point with regards to commentary which is
 7     presented every day during the work day at 8:15.  It's
 8     an excellent piece.  It's only for a few minutes and it
 9     provides a phenomenal kind of information, and yet if
10     you want to make contact with those people it is very
11     difficult unless you know who they are.
12  811                  I have -- under some circumstances
13     they will pass on more information, but I mean I'm
14     giving you that as one specific example, that I think
15     the listeners ought to be able in a simple method, to
16     be able to contact the CBC and find the point of
17     contact how to get in touch with the organization, if
18     it is a particular organization.  If it's an individual
19     who is not part of an organization, I think even there
20     a point of contact should be available if the CBC were
21     to at least take some necessary steps beforehand to see
22     whether or not the person would be open or not.  I
23     mean, there are certain things such as the security of
24     the person, confidentiality, privacy and all these
25     issues.  You don't want, just because they are being
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 1     interviewed either for commentary or the news, et
 2     cetera, that doesn't necessarily say that the Canadian
 3     public should all have access to them.  However, if, on
 4     the other hand, the CBC were required to make a kind of
 5     a list beforehand, is this person open to receiving
 6     contact from the public, yes or no.  If they are, then
 7     I think if a person from the public wants to have
 8     access to that person, the CBC should not be playing an
 9     additional role as to whether or not that person should
10     have access.
11  812                  I mean, that's my basic argument on
12     these.  In pushing forward for this kind of legitimate
13     access, much like the questions of accountability, I do
14     not get good, straightforward answers.  Often it's the
15     issue of, for example, the security of the person or
16     the privacy.  Well, I have just given you an argument
17     how that issue, if it's really an issue, could be
18     resolved in the largest number of cases, particularly
19     if it is organizations.  Because clearly organizations,
20     if they are being in the news or in some other part,
21     would only love further contact, I would imagine, under
22     some respects.
23  813                  So I can't see why they would want to
24     refuse it, other than an issue of power, that they are
25     the only ones who can have the access and for the rest
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 1     it's only consumption.
 2  814                  The second point that I have heard
 3     from time to time is that even the CRTC, this allows
 4     the CBC from doing so.  I found that a really big
 5     stretch.  When Jim Byrd who was still with the CBC at
 6     the time, was here in Winnipeg I brought forward some
 7     of these suggestions to him and he thought they made an
 8     awful lot of sense and was going to move forward on
 9     them, but unfortunately he left shortly after.  So that
10     was about the most positive step that I had seen
11     forward.  They were going to move forward but then he
12     left.  But he himself also said that -- I mean, it's a
13     complete crock that the CRTC would have denied the CBC
14     the opportunity of passing on information of that.  I
15     mean, I can't really tell whether you have or not, but
16     I mean you would know.  But it's these kind of excusive
17     kind of statements that I as one person am getting
18     where I do believe the CBC -- as I said before, it's a
19     fine institution, they have phenomenal information, but
20     as far as empowering the public to get access to that
21     information, or to hold the CBC accountable, on both
22     points I find the CBC far too weak and I would
23     encourage the CRTC to take stronger steps on that.
24  815                  That would be my presentation.  I
25     thank you for this opportunity and if there are any
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 1     questions I would be happy to try to answer them, and
 2     if not, that's --
 3  816                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 4     Mr. Hiebert.
 5  817                  MR. HIEBERT:  Thank you.
 6  818                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
 7  819                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 8  820                  I would now like to call the next
 9     group of presenters.  As I call your name, could you
10     please come up to the table.
11  821                  Delaney Earthdancer, Bill Toews,
12     Janis Kaminsky, Maurice Strasfeld and Celine Papillon,
13     Laurie Ankenman, Phyllis Abbe and Mel Christian, Harold
14     Shuster and Al and Dave Mackling.
15  822                  Delaney Earthdancer, please.
16     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17  823                  MS EARTHDANCER:  Thank you.
18                                                        1851
19  824                  I just want to say thank you to the
20     CRTC for giving me this opportunity to give my opinion
21     on CBC.
22  825                  Also, I was under the impression that
23     I had 15 minutes and I have been editing like crazy, so
24     I hope I am down to 10 minutes, and I apologize if I am
25     not.
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 1  826                  The CBC is one of Canada's jewels.  I
 2     cannot imagine having the love of or pride in Canada
 3     that I had without the CBC.  Through CBC I learn not
 4     only about my country, but about the people in this
 5     country and the way they think, sing and live. 
 6     Canadians are an incredibly unique and diverse people,
 7     and CBC is, to me, very much the voice of that
 8     uniqueness.
 9  827                  I have been listening to CBC radio
10     for at least 20 years.  I'm actually surprised to say
11     that, but it's true.
12  828                  As a young mother I listened to
13     Morningside faithfully.  I learned so much about Canada
14     and the people of my country during those years of
15     listening to Morningside.  So much of what I value
16     about CBC was epitomized by Morningside, a smorgasbord
17     of Canadian and world literature, music, ideas, humour,
18     critical thought, theatre and opinions, while focusing
19     on the individual lives of Canadians spread throughout
20     this vast country.
21  829                  There is no question in my mind that
22     CBC fulfils its role as the national public
23     broadcaster, and that the programming needs to be and
24     is, thankfully, different from that of other
25     broadcasters.  It also needs to continue to support
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 1     Canadian programming.
 2  830                  I am almost exclusively a CBC radio
 3     listener.  I do not watch much TV, so I do not feel I
 4     can adequately comment on CBC TV.  But what I have seen
 5     on CBC TV echoes much of what CBC radio brings to my
 6     life.
 7  831                  I rarely listen to other radio
 8     stations because I'm not interested in hourly
 9     regurgitation of the same music over and over,
10     accompanied by what is often inane disk jockey chatter. 
11     Over the years my listening interest, while continuing
12     to include the morning show, have expanded to include
13     so much of both Radio One and Radio Two.
14  832                  Years ago I barely had a sense of
15     Canada existing as a country or as Canadians as a
16     people, but my sense of the uniqueness of Canada and
17     the people in it and the way that we think has become
18     apparent to me by listening to the countless voices of
19     ordinary citizens across the country.  Experts,
20     scholars and radicals, authors, playwrights, First
21     Nations people, truck drivers, doctors and housewives,
22     immigrants, farmers and the homeless, francophones,
23     feminists and lawyers.
24  833                  I certainly hear comments that I
25     disagree with, yet time and time again I hear people
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 1     who think in thoughtful, creative, open-minded and
 2     inspiring ways.  I hear discussion that gives me hope
 3     for this country and that makes me proud to be a
 4     Canadian.
 5  834                  We live in a country that, like any
 6     family, has successes worthy of celebrating, failures
 7     that are embarrassing, members who are loved or
 8     ignored, and problems that seem insurmountable, whereas
 9     many families will often bury concerns in a closet,
10     it's my belief that CBC fairly consistently airs issues
11     no matter how troubling.
12  835                  It matters to me that I hear
13     discussions and songs and writing that exposes me to
14     Canadian cultures that I know little about.
15  836                  It matters to me that I hear
16     intelligent open-minded discussion about serious issues
17     that are important to me.  It seems to me that at CBC
18     there is a respect for the diversity of people and
19     opinions.
20  837                  A few examples:  I was raised on the
21     prairies with a grandfather who despised francophones
22     and a father who had no respect for native indians. 
23     Their influence, plus the societal messages that
24     alienates western Canada from Quebec and many white
25     people from aboriginals certainly affected me.  I
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 1     wanted to learn about these cultures, but how does one
 2     cross these bridges?  I appreciate that CBC shows me
 3     glimpses of these cultures and others, glimpses that
 4     inspire in me compassion, curiosity and interest. 
 5     These glimpses tell me about the people in my country
 6     who have been so hidden to me.  I hear about them as
 7     real people, not aliens I should avoid.
 8  838                  It matters to me that I hear about
 9     the realities of prison life and the justice system as
10     seen by an ex-prison through the journalistic
11     explorations of Rosie Rowbotham.
12  839                  It matters to me to hear intelligent
13     discussion about youth crime, just as our governments
14     are making the decision to get tough on youth.
15  840                  It matters to me to hear discussion
16     about how poverty, lack of social services and the
17     negative influences of prisons have affects on these
18     people.
19  841                  Concerning the discussion of issues
20     hidden in closets, I have been pleased and surprised by
21     the empathic and ongoing discussions about issues
22     surrounding women and about sexism, violence against
23     women and children, and feminism.
24  842                  Next is the music.  I love the music
25     I hear on CBC radio.  I cannot get this variety of
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 1     music anywhere else in the radio world.  Where else can
 2     I hear jazz, blues, classics, the summer folk
 3     festivals, the new music festivals, world music?  Where
 4     else do I get exposure to Québecois musicians?  Where
 5     else do I get such a large amount of Canadian music? 
 6     Nowhere that I am aware of, except for the music store.
 7  843                  CBC offers me so much, interviews
 8     with authors.  I had never heard of Alice Munro until I
 9     heard her on Morningside.  Readings of new books and
10     short stories, plays aired.  My son is an 18-year-old
11     playwright, and now even he has a chance to have his
12     recent play aired on CBC.
13  844                  There are many, many musicians and
14     authors who had their first national exposure on CBC. 
15     That matters.  I could write a short personal story and
16     possibly have it aired on CBC.
17  845                  On CBC I hear full length concerts
18     performed by Canadian symphony orchestras.  Over the
19     past month and-a-half I have been to three performances
20     where CBC was recording for national broadcast, twice
21     at the Winnipeg New Music Festival, and once at Rumours
22     Comedy Club.
23  846                  As well as Canadian musicians I value
24     hearing music from all over the globe.
25  847                  With regards to regional programming,
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 1     I do believe that CBC needs to provide good regional
 2     programming.  I remember a time not that long ago when
 3     it was a waste of time listening to CBC to get local
 4     news if there was a concern or a blizzard, for example. 
 5     That improved after the two horrible winters that we
 6     had in '95-96 and '96-97.  Now if the weather is poor I
 7     can count on getting information on the roads or on
 8     school closures through CBC.
 9  848                  It certainly also changed during the
10     flood.  I think CBC at that time provided a great deal
11     of support.  Although I think we need good regional
12     programming and that there is an adequate amount of
13     time set aside for it, I do not often listen to it. 
14     I'm not really sure why, but I actually just don't find
15     it that interesting, and I don't have any answers for
16     that, on why.
17  849                  My concerns for CBC have to do with
18     the budget cuts that have been taking place over the
19     past few years, heavy-handed government interventions
20     such as with Terry Milewski and, of course, the strike. 
21     I have feared the budget cuts since they first began,
22     but I have not noticed too much change until this past
23     year.  Personally, I am tired of governments and
24     organizations that have been so fixated on the
25     financial bottom line that they do not seem to consider
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 1     long-term consequences or the lives of the people they
 2     affect.
 3  850                  I am not advocating indiscriminate
 4     spending, but there needs to be a balance achieved so
 5     that one is not cutting one's own throat to achieve a
 6     balanced budget.
 7  851                  The quality has been reduced and it
 8     is irritating.  I hear programs more than once, which I
 9     don't mind occasionally, but now it happens often, and
10     that was before the struck.
11  852                  This morning when Avril or Michael
12     talks to someone from Saskatchewan or Newfoundland,
13     there is now only one regional correspondent available
14     instead of two or three as it was the year before.  I
15     can understand that it is less expensive to have one
16     person, but how can I feel I am getting an accurate
17     assessment of the provincial situation when I am
18     hearing only one person's view.
19  853                  I felt considerable unease and anger
20     when Terry Milewski was suspended from work because of
21     his APEC investigation.  I felt like I was living in
22     another country, one where a dictator rules.  In my
23     view, the message was clear:  Do not get too close to
24     government misdeeds or to the Prime Minister's office
25     in your investigations.  The government funds the CBC
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 1     and I do believe that the government should set the
 2     standards at CBC based on the ethics of this country,
 3     but I do not think the standards should ever include
 4     selective reporting and ignoring injustices committed
 5     by the government.  If we heard of that happening in
 6     another country, we would be appalled, and it is
 7     appalling when it happens here.
 8  854                  With regards to the strike, it needs
 9     to end.  I find it somewhat difficult to be sympathetic
10     of striking workers when my family's income has been
11     cut by a third in the past four years due to
12     downsizing.  Yet I value the CBC and I value the work
13     of the people on the front lines at CBC.  Obviously
14     these people are skilled technicians considering the
15     reduced quality of programming since the strike began. 
16     Now the journalists and hosts are set to strike.  These
17     people are very good at what they do.
18  855                  I want CBC back and working properly,
19     and I would like management, or whoever it is who is
20     holding the purse strings to get the strike settled. 
21     The CBC is far too valuable to this country to lose.
22  856                  Thank you for your time.
23     --- Applause / Applaudissement
24  857                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
25     Ms Earthdancer.
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 1  858                  Mr. Secretary.
 2  859                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 3  860                  I would now like to call Mr. Bill
 4     Toews.
 5     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 6  861                  MR. TOEWS:  Thank you very much.
 7                                                        1901
 8  862                  I really appreciate having an
 9     opportunity to put forward a few views about the CBC
10     here tonight.
11  863                  I would just like to compliment the
12     previous presenter.  She essentially carried the day in
13     terms of my own views.  I could support everything that
14     she said.
15  864                  There was a suggestion a few minutes
16     ago by another presenter that if you scratched a
17     farmer's back that one might pop up.  Well, one has
18     just popped up.  I happen to farm for a living, that is
19     my main occupation, and I would like to present perhaps
20     some views from that perspective, but I don't want to
21     be seen to be presenting it only from an agriculture or
22     farming point of view.
23  865                  I happen to have, I guess, come in
24     contact with the CBC from a number of different angles,
25     one of them on the shortwave international service
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 1     while we were on an international project.  And even
 2     though the programming obviously was quite different
 3     than what I was used to here, it gave us a contact that
 4     was very important for us at that particular time, and
 5     I certainly appreciated even -- I guess doubly so, the
 6     content of the programming on CBC radio as a result of
 7     that.
 8  866                  The second time we went on another
 9     assignment of that nature I made sure I took some of my
10     favourite CBC radio tapes along, just to make sure that
11     I didn't lose that sense of what it meant to be a
12     Canadian.  Some of it was related to the music program,
13     some of it related to some of the talk programs and
14     some of to sort of the historical kinds of
15     documentaries.
16  867                  I can recall how -- what a wonderful
17     feeling it was being able to walk the halls of
18     St. Thomas Church when they were doing a particularly
19     good series on the Bach Tricentenary, and you could
20     hear -- virtually hear Bach playing the organ while we
21     were out in the prairies of Kenya.
22  868                  At any rate, that to me sort of was
23     the starting point of my sincere interest in ensuring
24     that the CBC continue on with the good work it was
25     doing then, and I guess I'm one of those who is also
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 1     concerned about what is happening now.
 2  869                  This issue of funding, I think it's
 3     time that we stopped apologizing for spending so-called
 4     public money on -- and I think some people like to use
 5     the term "subsidizing" broadcasting.  As far as I am
 6     concerned, this is a very important investment we are
 7     making in the country, and currently we are not
 8     investing enough in this broadcasting system to allow
 9     it to do its job properly.
10  870                  Those people who suggest that we need
11     to do everything on a private-funding basis just should
12     ask themselves whether or not they would prefer to be
13     taxed with a private tax or a public tax, because
14     essentially I am obligated to pay for all of the
15     broadcasting that is being done on the private stations
16     and yet I listen to none of it.  But every time you go
17     to the shop to purchase anything you know that there is
18     a significant amount of that purchase price is designed
19     to support the private radio.  I don't view that
20     particular type of tax any more favourably than I do
21     dipping into the public purse.
22  871                  So I would like to put this notion
23     out that this is an investment, this is an investment
24     for Canadians, and that we should stop apologizing for
25     spending money on the public broadcasting system.
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 1  872                  From a programming point of view, I
 2     guess I will separate out radio and television.  Some
 3     of what I'm -- you know, some of my thoughts have
 4     already been put forward.
 5  873                  But you just look at, you know, the
 6     fact that I think the CBC is the only outlet that
 7     actually programs in the true sense of the word.  You
 8     talked about the kind of music programming that we are
 9     aware of.  I mean, to be able to listen to Holger
10     Petersen on Saturday night doing the blues show and
11     then being able to switch on Shelagh Rogers in the
12     mid-afternoon, or in the morning and listen to
13     Take-Five, you know, picking up Bill Richardson in the
14     afternoon, talking to people from across the country,
15     and the fact is that, you know, our family -- my family
16     members have had an opportunity to be heard across the
17     country because of the opportunity to participate in
18     some of those kinds of programs.  It's invaluable.
19  874                  As far as television is concerned, I
20     think the CBC has made significant strides in approving
21     the quality of prime time programming because of the
22     kinds of programs that are being aired, and I for one
23     am not interested, and I don't want to spend the extra
24     money on having access to a lot of the other specialty
25     channels, it's not that important, we don't spend that
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 1     much time wanting to be entertained with television
 2     sources, but the television that does appear on CBC is
 3     well worth watching in many cases.  I mean, we have
 4     programs that are very useful from the point of view of
 5     informing the public, whether it's the health show or
 6     whether it's, you know, The Fifth Estate or Current
 7     Affairs, the Undercurrents program and those kinds of
 8     things.  I mean, you just don't get that anywhere else. 
 9     And again, I don't want -- don't think we should be
10     apologizing for the fact that, you know, the public is
11     spending money on that kind of programming.  Like I
12     say, it's an investment and it's very valuable.
13  875                  I do have some concerns, and I know
14     it's an issue for the CBC, and that is to somehow find
15     the balance in terms of how journalists perform and how
16     they do their work.  I don't have an answer for that,
17     but I know that one of the reasons that I do listen to
18     CBC radio and television is to get the best
19     journalistic integrity that's available.  And I guess
20     we all have our own impression of what is being
21     truthful and what is not being truthful and we all have
22     our various complaints, but you won't find it any
23     better than the CBC, but that doesn't mean there aren't
24     some ways of -- or they may be some need to improve it.
25  876                  I'm not too sure how the CBC can
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 1     approach that.  To maintain arms length with our
 2     government as such, but still maintain the contact with
 3     the people and be responsible to the people of this
 4     country.
 5  877                  Finally, I guess, you know, your
 6     discussion earlier about Morningside, and specifically
 7     Peter Gzowski I guess, and I like to just relate to the
 8     fact that the people on CBC radio are family.  You
 9     know, you become so well acquainted with them, and you
10     become so respectful of who they are and what they do,
11     I just think that I am a little bit concerned about
12     some of the recent programming changes that perhaps
13     some of the programming may be losing the heart with
14     the Canadian flag around it, and I guess that's what I
15     always thought was so important with someone like
16     Gzowski being able to do those programs, is the fact
17     that he truly represented the feelings of a broad range
18     of Canadians, but he didn't do it just from an
19     intellectual point of view, he did it from the heart,
20     and I guess some of us are missing some of that.
21  878                  Just one final point, and it's a
22     minor point.  I have found too that -- maybe it isn't
23     so minor.
24  879                  I have found that being a farmer I of
25     course have an interest in particular of the noon hour
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 1     farm broadcast, and I have always found that I have
 2     been able to call on an issue and even provide
 3     information, maybe provide some seed for a story that
 4     they might want to do, and I have found them very open
 5     to suggestions.  In fact, when we had some recent
 6     concerns about some changes in the program, the CBC
 7     management was very willing to discuss this issue with
 8     the farm policy organization that I belong to, and we
 9     found them very open to ideas and to our suggestions
10     and so I have to compliment them on that as well.
11  880                  So overall, I just -- I think the
12     programming is being hurt, and I think we somehow have
13     to restore funding so the CBC can do its job properly.
14  881                  Thank you very much.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissement
16  882                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
17     Mr. Toews.
18  883                  Mr. Secretary.
19  884                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
20  885                  I would now like to call Ms Janis
21     Kaminsky.  Is Ms Kaminsky not here?
22  886                  MS KAMINSKY:  Oh, very much here.
23  887                  MR. KRUSHEN:  I'm sorry.
24  888                  MS KAMINSKY:  You should be so lucky
25     that I'm not.
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 1     --- Laughter / Rires
 2  889                  MR. KRUSHEN:  My apologies.  I just
 3     didn't see you.
 4     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 5  890                  MS KAMINSKY:  No, it's okay.  I was
 6     leaning back, relaxing.
 7                                                        1912
 8  891                  The previous two speakers I think
 9     stole part of my thunder, but that's all right, I will
10     reinforce it as firmly as I can.
11  892                  I am not, unfortunately, bilingual,
12     so I can't comment on the French CBC, but I think
13     probably the general comments that I have will apply as
14     well as to the English.
15  893                  I think it is absolutely essential
16     that we have a strong CBC that can provide the kind of
17     programming for which they have become so famous and
18     have always done so well.  These have been mentioned,
19     there are documentaries, news broadcasts, both locally,
20     national and international, comedy and drama.  Some of
21     the comedy I guess I don't quite connect with, but then
22     people don't connect with mine either, so it's a
23     two-way street.
24  894                  The CBC, both radio and TV is the way
25     that Canadians can develop, present and preserve our
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 1     culture and our characteristics.  There is a lot of
 2     talk these days about a lot of programs in that big,
 3     wide wonderful 100 channel job that's coming out there. 
 4     They won't represent us.  I would be very surprised if
 5     they do.  This is -- the CBC is ours, and it's the glue
 6     that is going to hold this country together.
 7  895                  The international bureaus, which have
 8     been cut, unfortunately, some of them, give us our own
 9     information on world events in the countries that they
10     are occurring.  This is a real necessity in this world
11     that is getting smaller and smaller, and we want trade
12     and we have relatives and friends all over the world. 
13     We want to talk to these people.  We want to know from
14     somebody of our own what's happening in those
15     countries.
16  896                  The national reports will ensure that
17     all Canadians get the important information that
18     applies throughout Canada.  Local productions cannot
19     only inform regional areas, but also can be exchanged
20     throughout Canada and teach us about other areas.  We
21     should have been seeing Land and Sea in the prairies. 
22     The Maritimes, the Atlantic provinces should have
23     probably been seeing some of Sandy Coleman's columns --
24     programs.  Let's get to learn what's happening out
25     there.  You know, the north always get forgotten, and
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 1     we should know what is happening up in that part of it
 2     as well.
 3  897                  I think all these things must be
 4     done, and I think can only be done by a public
 5     broadcaster, one for whom profit is not the motivation. 
 6     And I think this must also be done without political
 7     interference.  Public funding must not lead to
 8     political control.
 9  898                  I have just been reading recently
10     that perhaps the next head of the CBC will be a Prime
11     Ministerial appointment, and if you will permit me to
12     be blunt, I think that is absolute stupidity.  I'm
13     sorry, but that's how it is.  That's from my point of
14     view.
15  899                  I think the CBC must remain at arms
16     length from any government, I don't care whether it's
17     this one currently or one 20 years ago or the next one
18     down the road.
19  900                  The attempts to -- I don't know
20     whether it was deliberate attempts to destroy the CBC
21     by cutting funding.  That's more foolishness.  We must,
22     I think -- and I hope the CRTC can put some baseball
23     bat clout behind this -- that we have to support this
24     institution that can provide the entertainment and the
25     information for Canadians, and that can also present us
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 1     to the rest of the world.  We want to hear from the
 2     bureaus in other parts of the world.  We want them to
 3     know about us as well.
 4  901                  I think that good reporting like that
 5     and good communication can only help us and the world
 6     situation.
 7  902                  I have a few comments about the whole
 8     business of televising professional sports.  I don't
 9     think we need so much emphasis on professional sports. 
10     I know there is a great deal of talk about Hockey Night
11     In Canada and so on, but when we start getting two
12     hockey games back-to-back on a Saturday night, it's a
13     bit thick.  So I really can't buy that.
14  903                  In the spring -- and this was
15     somebody commented, and this is the freedom of this
16     country and talking on the CBC.  Somebody commented
17     this morning about this business of professional sports
18     and how we get in the spring and in the fall -- the
19     spring with hockey that goes on until June and the fall
20     with baseball -- the whole CBC is disrupted.  Programs
21     are shifted around, the news broadcasts are moved all
22     over the place.  For what?  You know, granted, yes,
23     there is an interest in professional sports, but I
24     happened to save from the 2nd of March in the Winnipeg
25     Free Press an article in the sports section that says
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 1     "Americans don't love this game.  In the arenas they
 2     are watching TV.  They are staying away in droves." 
 3     And we are putting the money out for two games
 4     back-to-back on a Saturday night.  I'm not so sure
 5     that's good.
 6  904                  I think that we would get a lot more
 7     viewers and a lot more interest if we started reporting
 8     on some of the local kids that are in sports events. 
 9     Can you imagine how many families would be glued to the
10     TV set if they thought that their youngster or their
11     relative or their neighbour's kid was going to be on
12     TV?  A lot more than the ones that are going to watch a
13     guy that's playing for one team today -- or a woman,
14     because the women are getting into now -- playing for a
15     team one time today and then tomorrow they are the
16     opposition.  Have some of the local kids on, some of
17     the local sports.
18  905                  I guess since the strike is on and we
19     have to sort of comment on this, I'm sorry that things
20     have been cut so much that this becomes a difficult
21     situation.  I think that sometimes I have become
22     complacent about the CBC, but when the strike started
23     and I began to look for my good new programming and
24     informational programming that was on the CBC and it
25     wasn't there because it couldn't be there, I began to
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 1     realize.  It was a real eye-opener and I thought "I'm
 2     missing something."
 3  906                  The only sort of minor advantage, I
 4     suppose, is that a few programs that I had to miss for
 5     other reasons are being rerun and I get a chance to see
 6     them.  But that's not really very helpful.
 7  907                  Advertising.  I think keep CBC radio
 8     free of advertising.  As far as TV is concerned, if I
 9     had my way -- well, if I had my way I guess there
10     wouldn't be any advertising, but I would limit it to
11     five minutes per hour, preferably at the beginning and
12     at the end of the program so that you don't get into
13     all this stuff and then find it's all chopped up.
14  908                  This probably will need more public
15     funding if the CBC relies on advertising funding.  Well
16     then, okay, that's fine with me.  If we have to put in
17     some more money and replace what has been cut and
18     increase the amount to cover the costs of future good
19     programming, then let's have it.
20  909                  We need the CBC as a public
21     broadcaster, independent of political pressure to
22     represent Canadians.
23  910                  Thank you.
24     --- Applause / Applaudissement
25  911                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
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 1     Ms Kaminsky.
 2  912                  We will be taking a short break so
 3     you can walk around and get out of those chairs.  I
 4     have about 26 minutes after.  If we came back here
 5     about 20 to 7:00 -- 20 to 8:00, I'm sorry.
 6     --- Short recess at / Courte suspension à 1922
 7     --- Upon resuming at / Reprise à 1940
 8  913                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  If we can
 9     all reassemble.  Thank you.
10  914                  Mr. Secretary.
11  915                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
12  916                  We are making a slight change to our
13     schedule.
14  917                  At this time I would like to call
15     Ms Maxine Hasselriis.
16     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
17  918                  MS HASSELRIIS:  Thank you.
18                                                        1942
19  919                  Ladies and gentlemen, first I must
20     admit I rarely watch any television except news
21     broadcasts or news-related shows.
22  920                  Second, for years I have watched
23     CBC TV news shows almost exclusively.  I wish to
24     address just one area of CBC broadcasting, its news
25     shows.
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 1  921                  There is a tremendous difference
 2     between CBC news shows and those of CTV, Global and
 3     MTN.  The last three would be better described as
 4     entertainment.  They give glib, superficial coverage to
 5     news events.  They react to events.  As well as
 6     reacting, the CBC initiates stories.  It does
 7     investigative reporting and holds to the fire the feet
 8     of many newsmakers.  I feel involved when I watch the
 9     news related by the CBC.  I feel like a bystander with
10     a short attention span when I watch the newscasts of
11     other stations.
12  922                  We live in an age in which political
13     groups and businesses have learned to manipulate the
14     news.  They carefully prepare promotional packages for
15     the media which appear to be news releases but are
16     actually disguised advertising.  It is easy and cheap
17     for broadcasters to use this material.  It seems to be
18     only the CBC which has the staff and equipment to
19     prepare unbiased material which doesn't use the
20     self-serving material.
21  923                  There is an audience for the other
22     stations, however if the CBC news shows disappear those
23     other stations are not satisfactory alternatives for
24     the CBC audience.  The amount of regional news on CBC
25     is shrinking, and I fear that not too many years into
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 1     the millennium it will have disappeared.  At the
 2     convenient hour of 10:30 p.m. on weekdays and over the
 3     weekends there are no regional CBC TV newscasts.  One
 4     can turn to the other stations, but they rarely address
 5     regional news, just that of the immediate city area,
 6     and that given in headline style interspersed with many
 7     temperatures, long lists of sports scores and
 8     infomercials.
 9  924                  That regional CBC TV newscasts
10     completely disappear for two days each week is
11     ridiculous if one remembers the CBC is the public
12     broadcaster.  For almost one-third of the week one
13     cannot access regional CBC TV newscasts.  The Canadian
14     public is still out there and news happens right
15     through the weekend.  It seems to me the most important
16     mandate of the public broadcaster is to keep Canadians
17     well informed of regional and national events on a
18     timely basis.
19  925                  An excellent example of the lack of
20     timely regional news came last November.  Winnipeg
21     hosted the Grey Cup game and its pre-game festivities. 
22     The Grey Cup game is a national celebration.  On the
23     Friday evening there was a spectacular successful Grey
24     Cup parade.  It started immediately after the regional
25     news and was not televised, either regionally or
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 1     nationally.  Brief coverage of the parade was given on
 2     the Saturday afternoon CBC National News.  By the
 3     following Monday evening, 72 hours after the previous
 4     regional CBC newscast, both the parade and game news
 5     were stale and not included in the regional news TV
 6     show.
 7  926                  In essence, in Winnipeg we have lost
 8     regional CBC TV late-night news.  The show, recorded
 9     earlier in the evening, airs so late as to be
10     accessible only to insomniacs.  The CBC National News
11     is repeated in a time slot which should be available
12     for regional news.  We watch The National from 10:00 to
13     11:00 each evening, and then if we want regional news
14     we have to wait until The National repeat ends.  We
15     don't wait, we just turn off the set.
16  927                  I have just returned from a two-month
17     stay in the U.S., and as a news junkie I was in seventh
18     heaven.  As Canada's national broadcaster cuts back the
19     time it gives to newscast, the U.S. stations are
20     increasing it.  Every day of the week one could easily
21     learn what was happening regionally and nationally as
22     each station had many regular newscasts.  Also, each
23     station seemed to be prepared to cover a story live as
24     it happened, interrupting regular programming.
25  928                  I also noticed the co-ordination of
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 1     regional and national news shows so that one moved
 2     effortlessly from local newscasts into national
 3     newscasts and then back into local news.
 4  929                  That U.S. stations have so many news
 5     shows indicates that news shows are both popular and
 6     profitable.  As we enter the millennium I would like to
 7     look forward to more CBC regional news on TV at more
 8     appropriate times.
 9  930                  Thank you.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissement
11  931                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
12     Ms Hasselriis.
13  932                  Mr. Secretary.
14  933                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  934                  At this point I would like to call
16     Mr. Maurice Strasfeld and Celine Papillon.
17     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
18  935                  MR. STRASFELD:  Thank you.
19                                                        1945
20  936                  I'm going to speak on behalf of my
21     wife and I.
22  937                  Before I start, I can't say enough
23     good things about the CBC and I am barely going to
24     touch on the many different aspects of the CBC.  The
25     previous speaker speaking about news, this is something
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 1     we didn't address at all, but I support her entirely.
 2  938                  How well does the CBC fulfil it's
 3     role as a national public broadcaster?  Should this
 4     change in the future?
 5  939                  The CBC fulfils its role as national
 6     broadcaster very well for the time being.  The endemic
 7     cuts and the choosing of politically appointed heads of
 8     the CBC to us undermines it.  It's longstanding culture
 9     of vision and excellence sustains it.  There is,
10     however, a limit to how much or how many insults the
11     organism can withstand with impunity.  Canadians will
12     be the losers.
13  940                  Incipient in the dynamics of
14     employment today is the forced relocation of families. 
15     This has given us fractured families where children no
16     longer benefit from the proximity and the wisdom and
17     experience of their elders.  Enculteration, sense of
18     history, internalizing the common cord that makes us
19     Canadian, will only happen if we have strong cultural
20     and information institutions.
21  941                  Canadian culture is a woven tapestry. 
22     CBC, Newsworld, Radio-Canada and RDI provide the
23     warp (ph) which stretches from sea-to-sea.  The local
24     programming, along with the national programming,
25     contribute the weft (ph).  CBC Radio-Canada is the only
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 1     organism that does it right.  It is not loud -- the
 2     loud, aggressive pseudo-American in-your-face brand of
 3     programming.  It's more communication than commercial
 4     propaganda with all its implications.
 5  942                  CBC speaks to our minds and our
 6     hearts.  It doesn't have the voices that attack as
 7     commercial ratio does.  It's not in your mind -- it's
 8     not in your face, but in your mind.
 9  943                  Radio programs such as Quirks &
10     Quarks, Basic Black, DNTO, This Morning, A Propos, As
11     It Happens; TV shows such as Witness, The Fifth Estate,
12     The Nature of Things, 22 Minutes, and the list just
13     goes on and on.  This CBC programming addresses a
14     community and assumes that there is intelligent life
15     out here.  There is a coherence to the daily offerings.
16  944                  Although we have noticed growing
17     strain as local infrastructure and personnel have
18     diminished, here are a few examples of how CBC
19     Radio-Canada serves us at both regional and national
20     levels.
21  945                  CBC has province-wide daily call-in
22     shows.  Whenever we have needed a moderator for public
23     forums and public information meetings, our local CBC
24     radio personalities have unselfishly and willingly
25     accepted our requests for their expertise.  They have
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 1     shown themselves to be well-read and prepared and have
 2     enhanced our meetings.
 3  946                  My wife is a Québecoise, and because
 4     of my job she bemoans the fact that we cannot live in
 5     Quebec.  RDI and Radio-Canada have helped connect her
 6     not only to the home province, but have opened up the
 7     rest of Canada's French fact.  Who knew that there was
 8     a vibrant French community in B.C.?  My wife, as a past
 9     rabble-rouser and rattler of cages in the education
10     field has had occasion to be on CBC radio and
11     television, both in English and French.
12  947                  One morning her niece in Quebec City
13     heard an interview with her on the CBC National Radio
14     News.  That same morning her sister heard a letter read
15     by Peter Gzowski.  At about the same time, her parents
16     saw her interviewed on RDI.  The point here is that
17     this is the medium of listening and viewing choice for
18     our family in Quebec, and it's just by chance, or habit
19     of viewing and listening, that her family saw and heard
20     her.  What other organism is there in Canada that could
21     bring families so tangibly close?  We can say the same
22     thing about Cross Country Checkup with Rex Murphy.
23  948                  The floods, the ice storms, these
24     have all become real to us in large part due to the
25     CBC.
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 1  949                  Should the programming provided by
 2     the CBC be different from that provided by other
 3     broadcasters?  Of course it should.  The CBC should
 4     educate.  We can't abandon the radio and television
 5     airwaves to purveyors of mindless pap.  There is no
 6     reason we cannot raise the lowest common denominator to
 7     a higher level rather than allowing the dumbing down of
 8     society.
 9  950                  The CBC is our last line of defence
10     from the Huns and the Visigoths, the barbarians at the
11     gate.  One of the great tragedies in Canada today is
12     how we have neglected to teach our children Canadian
13     history.  There is no common curriculum in Canada.  For
14     math, science or language arts this poses a niggling
15     problem.  For history it becomes a crime.  Not only
16     have we robbed our children of this right, this
17     heritage, but we have no way of helping our immigrant
18     children to buy into this common cord we should be
19     sharing with them.  How can we invite them to our table
20     when we have nothing to offer.
21  951                  Amazing as it may seem, our only
22     common articulations of history and purpose reside in
23     this public national broadcaster, from wonderfully
24     produced Quebec series such as Blanche, Les filles de
25     Caleb, Marguerite Vaillant, to the English series Black
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 1     Harbour, North of 60, The Beachcombers we start to see
 2     and understand our culture and history.  Our stories
 3     are stories of substance rather than flash.  They do
 4     not sizzle, they resonate, nurture and strengthen.
 5  952                  What special role should the CBC play
 6     in the presentation of Canadian programming?  Well, we
 7     would love to see a cross-over of productions. 
 8     Marguerite Vaillant was a wonderful French series --
 9     which, as far as I know, has not aired in English --
10     with the parts of the English soldiers played and
11     spoken by English actors.
12  953                  Lance et compte -- He Shoots, He
13     Scores -- was done in both languages.  North of 60 has
14     been dubbed into French.  We love to see series done in
15     a bilingual fashion with the French speaking French and
16     the English speaking English, and subtitles could be
17     included for those who are not bilingual.
18  954                  A series done in one language should
19     have a chance to air in the other language.  We need to
20     see and hear stories, music and art from all parts of
21     the country.
22  955                  My main concern with the CBC is the
23     funding cuts.  It's just not what it was.  Even so,
24     they are doing amazing things with what little they
25     have.
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 1  956                  Thank you.
 2  957                  I have to apologize.  We have to go
 3     pick up our children at school and we are already late.
 4     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 5  958                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 6     Mr. Strasfeld.
 7  959                  Mr. Secretary.
 8  960                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
 9  961                  I would now like to call Ms Laurie
10     Ankenman.
11     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
12  962                  MS ANKENMAN:  Good evening, everyone.
13                                                        1953
14  963                  I have been a listener of CBC radio,
15     primarily the English radio, for the last 22 years.  I
16     have also lived in four major Canadian cities during
17     that time, both in western and eastern Canada, and I
18     had the opportunity to travel to both coasts by car
19     over that time span.
20  964                  I chose CBC radio, as I still do, as
21     my primary source of information because, quite simply,
22     it has kept me connected to this country during all
23     those years serving as the national public broadcaster.
24  965                  Fulfilling a role such as this in a
25     country as large and diverse as ours is something CBC
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 1     staff and management have accomplished with style,
 2     professionalism, and a commitment worthy of many
 3     accolades.
 4  966                  Instead of accolades, however, the
 5     successive cost-cutting measures and downsizing in
 6     recent years has placed the CBC in jeopardy.  My
 7     increasing concern over the CBC brought me here tonight
 8     to reiterate the necessity of CBC as the national
 9     public broadcaster, and to support the renewal of its
10     licences by the CRTC.
11  967                  So my comments are primarily in
12     reference to CBC radio, because I prefer radio and only
13     occasionally view CBC television.
14  968                  The new millennium will bring no
15     fewer stresses, likely much greater ones to CBC to
16     provide objective, in-depth coverage, in which is
17     excels.  I do not see any need for CBC radio to fulfil
18     this role of public broadcaster in any significantly
19     different ways in the new millennium, but it cannot
20     continue this fundamental role without adequate federal
21     support.
22  969                  I would only caution, actually, that
23     CBC decision-makers on the magnitude of resources that
24     it would consider committing to the high-tech Internet
25     arm of this organization, because radio and television
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 1     remain the most accessible avenue to receive news and
 2     information for the majority of Canadians.
 3  970                  So many examples come to mind of the
 4     quality of local and regional reporting.  The Red River
 5     flood of 1997 put CBC radio and television in Winnipeg
 6     to the test.  Other programming was suspended in order
 7     to focus all available resources on a natural crisis of
 8     immense proportions that demanded all the attention CBC
 9     could possibly devote.  This was not only critical for
10     the local community, who mobilized in ways not
11     experienced in decades to assist others in coping with
12     massive losses, but the public broadcasting role of CBC
13     automatically informed the rest of Canada, and we who
14     live here know the response of Canadians all across
15     this country.
16  971                  The Saguenay flood, the ice storm
17     last year are two other examples where Canadians came
18     together to assist one another because of CBC radio and
19     television during these large scale human and
20     environmental crises in Canada.
21  972                  Public programming on CBC radio is
22     usually viewed as being for the good of our Canadian
23     society, and I can't agree more, and there is little
24     financial return.  I know also that the quality of this
25     programming is not found in the private sector which,
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 1     by its nature, operates on a profit-basis.  Nowhere
 2     else can I listen to investigative journalism and a
 3     wide array of information, including Canadian history,
 4     culture and politics found on not just the local
 5     programs but on the national programs like so many of
 6     my favourites.  Ideas, As It Happens, Quirks & Quarks,
 7     Basic Black, The House and, of course, the comedy
 8     programs like Double Exposure.
 9  973                  I cannot imagine my life without
10     these programs to challenge my brain and keep me up to
11     speed on current affairs, cultural affairs and
12     politics, and what the rest of Canada and the world is
13     up to.
14  974                  These programs, all of them personal
15     favourites, are unique and should be offered by a
16     public broadcasting system which is not constrained by
17     a profit motive.
18  975                  The private broadcasting sector will
19     never be able to provide what the CBC provides:  A
20     forum for keeping this country knitted together. 
21     Herein lies the strength of the CBC.  The wool is the
22     news and the information, the needles are the CBC
23     staff.  The needles knit, and I receive, knowing that
24     it is a right and a privilege.
25  976                  Because some years back I took an
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 1     opportunity of a lifetime to travel to the former
 2     Soviet Union.  The timing could not have worse, I flew
 3     one week following the Chernobyl disaster.  During my
 4     14-day stay I lived in a news vacuum.  An entire nation
 5     was in severe crisis as one of the world's worst
 6     disasters unfolded, and yet on the English radio
 7     programmed for tourists like myself, there was
 8     virtually no coverage of any substance.  That was
 9     really difficult for me, especially being a radiophile
10     that I am.
11  977                  So when that two-week period ended
12     and I flew back home, I felt immense relief to have
13     immediate access to CBC radio once again, knowing I
14     could trust its cover and, even more basic, that it was
15     there.
16  978                  I have not and never will forget
17     those feelings of a hunger for news and information,
18     especially during a time of massive environmental and
19     human disaster that profoundly impacted not only on
20     that nation but the world as well.
21  979                  So in further reflecting on this, the
22     current strike actually has elicited some similar
23     feelings for me, those feelings of an information void.
24  980                  In a world of information overload
25     the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation is a lifeline for
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 1     me.  It helps me to keep up with the changes in my
 2     country and to make sense of the world.
 3  981                  I am someone who routinely changes
 4     the dial to CBC when I go to visit my parents, at least
 5     for the odd newscast and special program, because I
 6     want to remain connected to the rest of my country.
 7  982                  Yes, the CBC is sacred and
 8     distinctive.  And I do expect the CBC will receive
 9     another round of licensing from the CRTC and hope that
10     these will be issued to the extent that it reflects
11     this distinctiveness.
12  983                  Thank you for the opportunity to
13     present tonight.
14     --- Applause / Applaudissement
15  984                  THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
16     Ms Ankenman.
17  985                  Mr. Secretary.
18  986                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
19  987                  I would now like to call Ms Phyllis
20     Abbe and Mr. Mel Christian.
21     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
22  988                  MS ABBE:  I am Phyllis Abbe.
23  989                  MR. CHRISTIAN:  I am Mel Christian.
24                                                        2000
25  990                  Good evening, Madam Chair.
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 1  991                  We are going to do this a little
 2     differently, and you will have to tiptoe through it in
 3     your bare feet to be able to find the answers to the
 4     questions that you have posed for us.
 5  992                  MR. KRUSHEN:  Go ahead.
 6  993                  MR. CHRISTIAN:  I love my CBC, but
 7     this is not a love-in.
 8  994                  MS ABBE:  When forces dark sell the
 9     CBC they sell our soul, our liberty, voices of the
10     people, the people's voice lamenting, the desecration
11     of integrity, a public good we have learned to
12     treasure, uniting us across the land, honing our
13     identify.
14  995                  MR. CHRISTIAN:  The beeper that
15     controls speech is now used almost every day all day by
16     political sympathizers not allowing political opinions. 
17     The buzzer is not what we hear.  The world that we hear
18     is what fills the circling buzzard space.
19  996                  MS ABBE:  Voices of the people, the
20     people's voice lamenting.  We were once proud Canadians
21     reflected back from public broadcasting, we saw the
22     image of ourselves command respect in foreign places, a
23     tolerant and a generous people, hearts and ports open
24     to receive refugees from war weary lands, our troops
25     peacekeeping, not warmongering in the world.
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 1  997                  MR. CHRISTIAN:  Our politicians
 2     support private corporate profits first and foremost
 3     and always.  The politician creates words and private
 4     corporate rights faster than the public can understand
 5     the motives.  Political schemes support the private
 6     profit brainwashing of listeners.  Government does not
 7     know how to play by its own proven established rules,
 8     for it lets private corporations dictate caucus policy.
 9  998                  MS ABBE:  Voices of the people, the
10     people's voice lamenting.  The Monsanto touch,
11     terminator politics, democracy corporatized,
12     genetically modified, a look-alike seed turned rogue. 
13     The seed of death.  Elephantine hysteria about to crush
14     the living civilization out of us.  In Rama (ph) was
15     there a voice heard, lamentation and weeping and great
16     mourning.  Rachel weeping for her children and would
17     not be comforted because they are not.
18  999                  MR. CHRISTIAN:  A man without culture
19     is no different than a rat.  Canadian culture is what
20     makes this place Canada.  Just as our bodies will die
21     without oxygen, our dispersed country is vulnerable
22     without CBC freedoms, propaganda purchased by those
23     that control creates more control.  If we let profit be
24     the yardstick we will live in a corporate market region
25     of the world.  The people of the world are being
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 1     squeezed by the wealthy.  Those that have demand more
 2     above all.
 3  1000                 MS ABBE:  Devil's advocate turned
 4     biblical scholar unleashes the Book of Revelations in
 5     self-fulfilling prophecy.  The corporate agenda
 6     effected, unelected.  Our political leaders -- may God
 7     forgive us for electing them -- turn traitor and
 8     Judas-like betray us.  They themselves drag within our
 9     boundaries the Trojan Horse of our destruction, our own
10     legislators a fifth column for the colonizing
11     multinationals.
12  1001                 MS CHRISTIAN:  To cry after the milk
13     has been split will create nothing, for the gate has
14     already been opened and the time will have passed to
15     push back the force of evil.  The cutting, the
16     slashing, the burning in every country is isolating,
17     impoverishing and controlling.  Canada must control
18     this cycle of unfettered profit.  Corporate wealth has
19     no bounds and no limits and, most importantly, no
20     morals.
21  1002                 MS ABBE:  Voices of the people, the
22     people's voice lamenting do no harm to the voice of our
23     past.  Speaking to our present, waiting to greet our
24     yet unborn.  Voice of the eternal now are brushed with
25     immortality.
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 1  1003                 MR. CHRISTIAN:  My CBC has our past
 2     securely locked up in its vaults, free from the ravages
 3     of time and man's tinkering.  We know who we are and
 4     when we were from that vivid record.  This presence of
 5     accounts ferment our reality, is the essence of our
 6     Canadian identity that must remain Canadian at all
 7     sacrifice.  To secure our past we must prevent the
 8     neutering of the CBC and its assets.
 9  1004                 MS ABBE:  Voices of the people, the
10     people's voice disclaiming, we are not Faust, we will
11     not sell our public good for corporate favours.  May
12     God bless the CBC for it belongs to you and me.
13  1005                 MR. CHRISTIAN:  Amen.
14  1006                 Thank you.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissement
16  1007                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Abbe
17     and Mr. Christian.
18  1008                 Mr. Secretary.
19  1009                 MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
20  1010                 I would now like to call Mr. Harold
21     Shuster.
22     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
23  1011                 MR. SHUSTER:  Good evening.
24                                                        2006
25  1012                 Much of what I want to say has
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 1     already been said by others before me and much more
 2     thoughtfully put together, particularly the last
 3     presentation.
 4  1013                 I would like to start with a little
 5     bit of background to my history with the CBC.
 6  1014                 I first started listening to the CBC
 7     in 1983 when I was living in Whitehorse, and when I
 8     moved to Winnipeg in 1986 my radio hasn't been off of
 9     the CBC since that time.  We have four radios in our
10     house, and all four of them are on the CBC.
11  1015                 The CBC informs me, it entertains me,
12     it enlightens me and it connects me to my community, my
13     city, my province and the country in a way that no
14     other broadcaster could.
15  1016                 My experience with the CBC is
16     primarily with English radio, but as a father of a
17     28-month old, I am becoming more and more familiar with
18     CBC Playground and now look forward to the exploits of
19     Jasper at the Dead Dog Cafe as much as I do with what's
20     happening with Noddy or Roly-Poly-Oly (ph) or the Zapp
21     Family (ph).
22  1017                 The importance of CBC for me and
23     other -- and many here is that it plays, I think, a
24     vital role in keeping Canadians in touch with each
25     other and what makes us unique as a nation.  The CBC
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 1     serves a role that cannot, would not, and is not being
 2     fulfilled by public broadcasters.
 3  1018                 While I was too young to remember
 4     where I was when Kennedy was shot, I'm sure I'm part of
 5     a generation of CBC listeners who will know exactly
 6     where they were when Peter Gzowski went off the air.
 7  1019                 I think the current trend of media
 8     concentration makes it even more important that a
 9     public broadcaster like the CBC provide Canadians with
10     a balanced perspective on local, national and
11     international news, unimpeded by demands from
12     advertisers.  The vast majority of whom are big
13     corporations and transnationals whose needs are being
14     very well served by the likes of Conrad Black, Izzy
15     Asper, Paul Desmarais, the Thompson's and the Irving's.
16  1020                 The CBC provides a much needed forum
17     for Canadians to debate, discuss and participate in the
18     evolution of our country.  It serves a democratizing
19     role in a nation whose political spectrum is being ever
20     more narrowed and shifting to the right by both U.S.
21     interest and media moguls whose interests lie not in
22     reporting but formulating and making news that will fit
23     with their view of what values and ideals our society
24     should aspire to.  It is not one that I share, and the
25     CBC provides a place where differing views can be
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 1     freely and opening expressed and in such a way as to
 2     lend them credibility.
 3  1021                 I would also like to talk about
 4     funding a little bit, and I think the ability of the
 5     CBC to fulfil its role and mandate has been
 6     significantly jeopardized by funding cuts from the
 7     federal government.  Cuts to the CBC under the current
 8     Liberal government have amounted to approximately
 9     $400 million at the end of 1997/98.  On a per capita
10     basis the current funding is 47 per cent less than it
11     was in 1984/85.
12  1022                 Restoring funding to the CBC is
13     important to Canadians and to the cultural community as
14     a whole.  Cuts to the CBC's budget have a ripple effect
15     throughout the cultural sector since the CBC has
16     traditionally been the largest employer of artists in
17     Canada.
18  1023                 Recent cuts to the CBC have meant
19     that repeat broadcasting has doubled to 33 per cent of
20     total hours.  This saddens and infuriates me, because
21     it means that skilled, talented people have been put
22     out of work and valuable Canadian stories and ideas are
23     left wanting because there is no outlet for them.
24  1024                 As a national public service, which
25     the CBC is, it must be adequately funded to serve that
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 1     function to the highest degree possible.  That would
 2     require and needs to have foreign bureaus reopened and
 3     reinstating the correspondence that work out of those
 4     bureaus.
 5  1025                 When I was putting this together much
 6     of my public presentations have been of a political
 7     nature and speaking sort of intellectually.
 8  1026                 Much of the emphasis for me wanting
 9     to come here tonight was to talk about how the CBC has
10     affected me personally, and I think some of what I have
11     wanted to say is a mix of that sort of intellectual why
12     we need the CBC and what the CBC has meant to me and
13     people who I associate with.
14  1027                 I think in many senses that what you
15     have heard has been somewhat of a love-in for the CBC,
16     and I think generally that's how Canadians feel about
17     the CBC, they either love it or they hate it.  Should
18     the CRTC renew the licence of the CBC because we all
19     love it?  Well, probably not, but the licences should
20     be renewed, I think, for the reasons we love it.  We
21     recognize and respect the integrity of the journalists,
22     the reporters and the producers who put the CBC's
23     programming together:  it's independence; it's honest,
24     balanced presentation of the issues affecting us as a
25     community and a nation; it's support and promotion of
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 1     new and uniquely Canadian talent from writers and
 2     directors to artists in music, dance and theatre; and
 3     for all the little ways that the CBC makes us feel
 4     proud of ourselves, our neighbours and our country.
 5  1028                 Thank you.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 7  1029                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 8     Mr. Shuster.
 9  1030                 Mr. Secretary.
10  1031                 MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
11  1032                 I would now like to call Mr. Al
12     Mackling and Mr. Dave Mackling.
13     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14  1033                 MR. A. MACKLING:  On a lighter note,
15     I would like to say that the Dave Mackling that is to
16     follow me is my older brother.  I have another brother
17     and an --
18                                                        2012
19  1034                 MR. D. MACKLING:  Older and wiser
20     brother, Al.
21  1035                 MR. A. MACKLING:  Well, that's a
22     matter of opinion.
23     --- Laughter / Rires
24  1036                 MR. A. MACKLING:  We have another
25     brother, another sister.  Unfortunately, they are out
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 1     of the province and are not able to be here to make
 2     their own presentations.  I hope that they subscribe to
 3     the presentations of my brother Dave and I.
 4  1037                 I started out to answer the
 5     questions, but I suppose like a lot of others I sort of
 6     wandered off the questions.
 7  1038                 The first question:  How well does
 8     the CBC fulfil its role as the national public
 9     broadcaster.  I started faithfully with that one.
10  1039                 In answer to that question I would
11     say quite well, not withstanding two successive federal
12     governments, one Conservative and the current Liberal
13     government's severe reduction in operational funding.
14  1040                 It is important to remember that back
15     in 1935 a vastly different Conservative government had
16     the intestinal fortitude and wisdom to establish a
17     number of national or federal agencies publicly funded
18     at reasonable arms length from government to ensure
19     that our nation, with all its regional differences,
20     would be linked economically, socially and culturally
21     from sea to sea to sea.
22  1041                 In 1935 Canadian nationalism was
23     important.  It is sad to note that despite the
24     increasing threat of economic and cultural domination
25     from our giant neighbour to the south our current
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 1     government is forcing the CBC to cut back its national
 2     cultural efforts and intends to weaken its independence
 3     in the name of greater accountability by the proposed
 4     amendment to the CBC Act whereby the current government
 5     intends that CBC directors will hold office only as
 6     long as their performance pleases the government.
 7  1042                 Despite all this, CBC radio and TV
 8     have done well.  Before the slashing of the CBC budget
 9     we enjoyed excellent TV programs that were crafted and
10     programmed locally, not only giving the CBC presence in
11     the local workforce of artists and skilled workers and
12     technicians, but also bringing the richness of
13     Manitoba's cultural heritage into the homes of
14     Manitobans, but also to the enlightenment of Canadians
15     generally.
16  1043                 We need more local production and
17     programming to knit our cultural mosaic together.
18  1044                 Is there a special role for the CBC? 
19     Yes.  Showcasing our cultural heritage and diversity,
20     and demonstrating that a nation can be richer
21     culturally through a mosaic of ethnicity rather than a
22     melting pot, and demonstrating that despite cultural,
23     religious and linguistic difference people can live
24     together in tolerance and peace.
25  1045                 Yes, there is a role:  educating
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 1     young and old Manitobans -- young and old Manitobans
 2     and Canadians about our history, about our aboriginal
 3     brothers and sisters, and about the challenges we all
 4     face going into the millennium.
 5  1046                 Yes, providing some recognition and
 6     outlet for minority political opinion.  While the NDP
 7     did not have enough members in Parliament to receive
 8     official status for rights in Parliament, it was
 9     virtually shut out of commentary in CBC news coverage. 
10     Furthermore, the CBC should document the vast contrast
11     in the quality of life that exists under various
12     government throughout the world.  Perhaps then we
13     wouldn't be so likely to follow slavishly the
14     propaganda of corporate America, propaganda that brands
15     public enterprise as negative and inefficient, and
16     taxation as something terrible that should be avoided
17     at all costs.
18  1047                 The CBC should not have to seek
19     funding through advertising.  Its operations should be
20     fully funded publicly by a fair taxation of all
21     Canadians, including corporations whose profits arise
22     because of the educated skilled workers available to
23     them in Canada, workers whose health and social
24     security are paid for by public taxation.
25  1048                 I have nothing but praise for most
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 1     CBC productions.  While we miss Peter Gzowski, CBC
 2     radio continues to perform well, and I want to say
 3     locally how pleased we are with Terry MacLeod and Ross
 4     Rutherford, to mention just a two.
 5  1049                 CBC television, The Fifth Estate,
 6     Witness, The Nature of Things and others are excellent. 
 7     But CBC television is not perfect.  In my view Air
 8     Farce and its ilk presents a very cynical and jaded
 9     view of politicians.  If I were Jean Chrétien -- and I
10     have no particular axe to grind for our Prime Minister. 
11     I very much oppose most of the policies he has
12     represented and the decisions he has made in Canada,
13     but if I were Jean Chrétien I would be tired of the
14     mean characterizations that go on and on from week to
15     week of his persona.
16  1050                 It's time broadcasters generally made
17     an effort to restore a healthy public perspective of
18     people who choose to serve their community, their
19     province and their country.  Broadcasters should
20     remember that in a true democracy all members of
21     society should be politically aware, and hopefully
22     involved.  In effect, all members of society should be
23     politicians.
24  1051                 If broadcasters want to keep
25     prominent public officer holders accountable, do it,
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 1     but don't degrade and lampoon them as if they are fair
 2     game for any kind of satirical treatment.
 3  1052                 Now, if you want an example of the
 4     kind of sophisticated satirical treatment of government
 5     you don't have far to look.  There was a series on the
 6     BBC called Yes Minister that is --
 7  1053                 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:  That's my
 8     government.
 9  1054                 MR. A. MACKLING:  There we are.
10  1055                 That exemplified the kind of
11     sophisticated humour that debunked government in an
12     appropriate way.
13  1056                 I believe that the CRTC should report
14     to the government that thinking Canadians want the CBC
15     to have greater funding, not less; more regional
16     programming, more reportage of Canadian sporting
17     events, less American professional sports, less
18     emphasis and reporting on the whims of the stock
19     market, and more reporting of local news.
20  1057                 Finally, the government should be
21     advised to leave the CBC Act the way it is.  If
22     R.B. Bennett in 1935, a Conservative, was not afraid of
23     an arms length public broadcaster, the CBC, why should
24     the current government want to tighten control of the
25     CBC?  The CBC's role is to inform, educate, entertain
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 1     and, as so many others have said, work as a force to
 2     unify and integrate the Canadian culture.  It has done
 3     very, very well in the past, there is no reason why it
 4     shouldn't continue to fulfil that role.  But the
 5     haemorrhaging, the cuts have to stop.  Money has to be
 6     put back, regional programming fleshed out again,
 7     because we have a jewel that this country will not
 8     allow to be lost.
 9  1058                 Thank you.
10     --- Applause / Applaudissement
11  1059                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  And now over to
12     your brother, Dave.
13  1060                 MR. D. MACKLING:  That's hard to
14     follow.  You are a hard act to follow.
15  1061                 The words "love-in" have been
16     expressed by one or two people, and I'm afraid my
17     presentation falls into the category of a love-in,
18     because I do love the CBC.
19  1062                 I have listened to the CBC since, oh,
20     I guess 30-40 years, and my children grew up around the
21     supper table listening to Rawhide when they were just
22     little kids, and we looked forward to that so much
23     every evening.
24  1063                 But, you know, we accept the fact
25     that you don't really miss something until you no
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 1     longer have it, and that's my greatest fear about the
 2     CBC gradually being eroded away.  I think something
 3     that exemplified that so much to us when my wife and I
 4     were returning from Texas back in 1989, we had gone
 5     almost crazy listening to all the trivial stuff on
 6     American radio that we just were so happy when we got
 7     close enough to the Canadian border that we could once
 8     again tune into the CBC.  It was really a glorious
 9     moment for us.
10  1064                 So I will begin my brief presentation
11     by paying tribute to those farsighted pioneers who
12     believed that a national radio network would inform
13     Canadians from coast to coast about this vast and
14     beautiful country.  I think that over the years the CBC
15     has done an admirable job fulfilling that mandate.
16  1065                 I personally have had my life
17     enriched in a number of ways.  Yes, I have been
18     entertained, but most of all I have been educated by
19     being exposed to some of the great Canadians who have
20     debated important issues of the day with scientists,
21     teachers and writers.
22  1066                 I think back to the programs hosted
23     by Peter Gzowski, and of the hundreds of interesting
24     discussions that ensued.
25  1067                 Speaking of Peter Gzowski, let me
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 1     just pause to say that 30 years ago Peter Gzowski
 2     hosted a weekly program called Radio Free Friday.  How
 3     many of you remember that?  I remember it because he
 4     interviewed me one Friday evening.
 5  1068                 Anyway, I regard Peter Gzowski as a
 6     national treasure, along with David Suzuki, Lister
 7     Sinclair and many more who became household names.
 8  1069                 Thinking back many years ago I recall
 9     a great Canadian entertainer such as Wayne and
10     Schuster, The Happy Gang, Max Ferguson as Rawhide and
11     many, many others who kept us glued to the radio.
12  1070                 I'm happy that today we are still
13     receiving some excellent radio programs such as CBC
14     Radio Overnight, This Morning, As It Happens, Ideas,
15     Quirks & Quarks, Disc Drive, Basic Black, The House,
16     Cross Country Checkup, a few of my favourites -- by the
17     way, I almost forgot to mention The Vinyl Cafe.
18  1071                 As far as television is concerned, I
19     would like to take a moment to reflect back to some
20     early TV programs enjoyed by my family and friends. 
21     These were Don Messers Jubilee, Cross Canada Hit Parade
22     with Juliet -- do you remember that one -- The Tommy
23     Hunter Show, The Beachcombers, and of course today we
24     have some excellent programs such as The Nature of
25     Things, Market Place, Venture, Pamela Wallin, and I
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 1     don't know what the program is, but we see Joe
 2     Schlesinger on quite regularly, The Royal Canadian Air
 3     Farce -- who brother Al doesn't think too much of,
 4     but -- This Hour Has 22 Minutes, The Passionate Eye,
 5     Wind At My Back.  You know, these are all, for the most
 6     part, wonderful programs that reflect Canada.
 7  1072                 Over the years we have developed a
 8     wonderful pool of Canadian talent that has remained
 9     loyal to Canada.  This is something we should all be
10     very proud of too.
11  1073                 I certainly will urge my Member of
12     Parliament to ensure that the CBC receives adequate
13     funding so that our national broadcaster can once again
14     play a leading role in informing and entertaining
15     Canadians.
16  1074                 I thank you.
17     --- Applause / Applaudissement
18  1075                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
19     Mr. Mackling.
20  1076                 Mr. Secretary.
21  1077                 MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
22  1078                 I would now like to call the next
23     group of presenters.  When I call your name, could you
24     please come forward to the table.
25  1079                 Elizabeth Fleming, Stuart Clark, Ruth
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 1     and Kris Breckman, Antony Waterman, Don Laluk, Linda
 2     McMillan, Nigel Basely and Ian Ross.
 3  1080                 I will call Ms Elizabeth Fleming to
 4     make a presentation.
 5     --- Short pause / Courte pause
 6     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
 7  1081                 MS FLEMING:  Thank you.
 8                                                        2028
 9  1082                 You will have to excuse me, I don't
10     have a written presentation, but some of your questions
11     were so provocative that I really felt I had to come
12     and address them.
13  1083                 The one that I would like to start
14     with is:  How well does the CBC serve the public on a
15     regional as well as a national level?  In particular,
16     concentrating on the news and in television, 24 Hours,
17     The Regional Program and The National.
18  1084                 I think in a time when the television
19     short hit aiming for stimulation, emotion and drama
20     challenges the efforts of some of us to sustain
21     thought, analysis and context, gives us a real cause
22     for concern.  We are becoming a society for the short
23     term and we are seeing the death of context.  A society
24     without context, and particularly a democracy, is
25     something of a dangerous thing.
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 1  1085                 One thing that I really appreciate in
 2     the CBC is the fact that with professional journalists
 3     who are able to stay at the respective levels of
 4     government for some time and get to know what is going
 5     on over time, have a knowledge of the history and how
 6     the different levels of government fit together, and as
 7     these journalists and presenters give this knowledge
 8     across the airwaves it does provide a context and
 9     continuing that we don't always see in other channels. 
10     This is something that we really need to sustain.  It
11     obviously requires more money and it requires a
12     commitment.
13  1086                 Particularly in radio, one really
14     appreciates not having the short hits without
15     advertising.  You are able to get a sustained approach
16     to issues and to have them discussed in more depth than
17     in programs with advertising.  Here again, there is a
18     chance to go into more depth and to provide continuity
19     from day to day in the morning program and in the
20     afternoon program at the regional level.
21  1087                 The balance, the fairness, the lack
22     of -- it is all based on having a lack of political
23     interference.
24  1088                 I particularly ask the CRTC to
25     perhaps ask to see a January the 30th, 1997 program
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 1     that CBC television did for 24 Hours, and in that
 2     program they took us through the media rooms at the
 3     "Leg" and showed how the desks were becoming emptier
 4     and emptier as other television and radio stations were
 5     not able to afford to keep journalists full time at the
 6     "Leg" and covering it.
 7  1089                 CBC has been able to add continuity
 8     and some of the newspapers, but it is expensive and it
 9     does require help.  But to get the feeling -- the
10     sustained approach for people to make analysis and to
11     understand how our political system is progressing we
12     do need to have people in those desks.  They need to be
13     there.
14  1090                 I would also like to see that they
15     cover more than question time and even go into more
16     depth, possibly covering estimates and getting into
17     looking into the future and what our politicians have
18     in store for us.
19  1091                 At this time "Leg" has not sat for
20     eight months and we need journalists to tell us what's
21     happening in the programs and to help keep government
22     accountable, because our opposition parties are less
23     able to do that without question time.
24  1092                 At the city level, we have excellent
25     reporters as well, and this is very much appreciated. 
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 1     They are there, they probably could do with two
 2     reporters rather than just one to make sure that
 3     everything is covered.
 4  1093                 So basically my point is, we cannot
 5     lose sight of context and we do need the continuity and
 6     people there to continue to give us that high standard
 7     and the level of professionalism to which we have
 8     become used.
 9  1094                 Thank you.
10     --- Short pause / Courte pause
11  1095                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
12     Ms Fleming.
13  1096                 Mr. Secretary.
14  1097                 MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
15  1098                 I would now like to call Ms Linda
16     McMillan.
17     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
18  1099                 MS McMILLAN:  Thank you.
19                                                        2032
20  1100                 I am here tonight to speak for the
21     radio branch of the CBC.
22  1101                 As a small child I remember our
23     family radio tuned to the CBC.  My mother usually had
24     the radio playing in the kitchen as she worked.  When
25     we became teenagers she switched over to the radio
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 1     stations where my brothers began their careers, but she
 2     still was a CBC television watcher.
 3  1102                 I began my career -- and I call it
 4     career -- as a CBC listener when I married and moved to
 5     Regina in 1967.  I couldn't stand the local radio
 6     stations.  I disliked western music, I hated listening
 7     to commercials about rockolators (ph), combines and
 8     chemicals.
 9  1103                 The CBC provided me with middle of
10     the road intelligent coverage.  I was delighted when
11     the commercials were removed a few years later.
12  1104                 In Africa in the '70s I listened to
13     Radio Canada International.  It kept us in touch with
14     the bigger issues of politics and sports, such as the
15     Grey Cups games, but it was dismal in telling me what
16     was happening in western Canada.  We typified the
17     broadcast there as two items from Montreal, one from
18     Toronto and one from the rest of Canada.  Chances of
19     getting any information about events outside of
20     Montreal or Toronto were minimal.  I used the BBC, or
21     even Radio South Africa for world politics there.
22  1105                 I became an absolute devotee of CBC
23     radio when we returned to Winnipeg in 1974.  I turned
24     on the radio when I got out of bed, it stayed with me
25     throughout the day.  I loved This Country in the
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 1     Morning and Morningside in its various forms.  The
 2     programs were eclectic, and the various hosts treated
 3     the audiences as intelligent.  I learned about people
 4     and events from around the country.  I have always
 5     appreciated the in-depth news coverage and have
 6     listened to As It Happens since its inception.
 7  1106                 When I returned to the workplace in
 8     the 1980s I continued to be a CBC fan.  The radio gave
 9     me the news before I went to work.  My car radio
10     continued to inform me as I drove to and from work. 
11     The house radio went on the minute I walked in the
12     door, and stayed with me when I worked in the kitchen
13     and at my desk in the evening.  Weekends still allowed
14     me 25 hours worth of radio listening.  My children
15     would never think to change a radio station to any --
16     on any of my radios.
17  1107                 The 6:00 o'clock news provided us
18     with information and topics for dinnertime
19     conversation.  Saturday morning mornings such as The
20     House taught them about politics, and Quirks & Quarks
21     trained them in science.  They learned to laugh at the
22     likes of The Royal Canadian Air Farce and to listen to
23     late night music other than the usual teenage pop
24     classic.
25  1108                 At the lake we would sit together and
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 1     listen to Ideas.  I gave up going to church on Sunday
 2     mornings because I go to the church of the CBC.
 3     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 4  1109                 MS McMILLAN:  I cannot miss my dose
 5     of information.
 6  1110                 I taught high school English and
 7     discovered that most English teachers in this country
 8     listen to the CBC.  It unites us as a nation.  I can
 9     travel to all parts of this country and talk to
10     colleagues, not about literature, but about programs on
11     the CBC.
12  1111                 In the 1970s I stopped watching
13     television completely, my radio was on constantly.  I
14     would go to bed with the CBC listening to classical
15     music.  It would become silent in the early days at
16     1:05, and it acted as my alarm and woke me up at 5:30
17     in the morning when it came back on.
18  1112                 Since overnight coverage began I have
19     joined the ranks of the best informed insomniacs in the
20     country.  I never turn my radio off when I'm at home. 
21     I wake up at -- or if I wake up at 2:00 a.m. I listen
22     to Radio Finland.  I love to be informed about what is
23     happening in Australia.  My only complaint is that
24     there is very little coverage of events in Asian
25     countries or the Indian subcontinent.  I certainly hope
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 1     this coverage continues.  It is interesting and a truly
 2     wonderful addition to the CBC.
 3  1113                 To sum up, the CBC is intelligent,
 4     informative and insightful.  There is nothing like it
 5     in this country.  It unites us as a country and allows
 6     us to have a common world view as a nation.  Small
 7     centres have equal access.  You cannot -- you do not
 8     have to live in a big eastern city to gain access to
 9     intellectually challenging radio programs.
10  1114                 Without a publicly funded CBC radio
11     we would be a much weaker country.
12  1115                 That said, I do have several
13     concerns.  I am concerned about the cutbacks which have
14     forced CBC to run many reruns throughout the week.  I
15     don't mind hearing an occasional item a second time,
16     but there are some segments of some programs that I
17     have heard three, four and five times, and with the
18     technician strike this problem is magnified.
19  1116                 I am even more concerning about
20     political interference.  Having friends of the Prime
21     Minister and eastern politicians in general acting as
22     the Board of Governors of the CBC means that final
23     decisions might not be made on the basis of what is
24     artistically meaningful or in the best interest of the
25     country as a whole.
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 1  1117                 Further, I am extremely concerned
 2     about what appears to be blatant political interference
 3     in this past year.  By this statement I am referring to
 4     the actions of the PMO in silencing Terry Milewski and
 5     the APEC coverage.
 6     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 7  1118                 MS McMILLAN:  How arrogant of the
 8     Prime Minister to think that he and his office have the
 9     right to complain about coverage and, even more, to act
10     to stop that coverage.  Imagine if Nixon had had that
11     same power to stop The Washington Post from covering
12     Watergate.  I fear for our country when the Board of
13     Governors and the appointed directors allow the PMO to
14     shut down an inquiry.
15     --- Applause / Applaudissement
16  1119                 MS McMILLAN:  In short, we need more
17     funding to the CBC so that decent salaries can be paid
18     to the technicians and the on-air people.  I want my
19     radio to remain.  It is vital to this nation.
20  1120                 I also feel strongly that political
21     interference must stop.  Politicians and civil servants
22     alike must be held accountable.  A radio with the power
23     to investigate is an important tool in a democracy.  If
24     you shut down a national radio, no one will have the
25     power to investigate or inform us.  Activities such as
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 1     those that occurred in B.C. last year will continue
 2     unchecked.  The RCMP and the PMO will eliminate free
 3     speech, and we will be no better off than the citizens
 4     of a tinpot dictatorship.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 6  1121                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 7     Ms McMillan.
 8  1122                 MS McMILLAN:  Thank you.
 9  1123                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Secretary.
10  1124                 MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
11  1125                 I would now like to call Mr. Ian
12     Ross.
13     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
14  1126                 MR. ROSS:  Thanks for having me here. 
15     I'm not here on behalf of anyone or anything, I guess
16     just myself.
17                                                        2040
18  1127                 I apologize if my presentation is
19     anecdotal, but that's the way I talk.  Actually, I
20     wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for the CBC.  I saw
21     it on the news this afternoon and I remember, oh yes, I
22     was going to come and talk here.  So that's what I'm
23     doing.
24  1128                 I just met some friends upstairs and
25     I turned around and I looked and I saw these beautiful
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 1     ice sculptures there, and it surprised me.  It
 2     surprised me that they were there, for one thing, but
 3     also that they were so beautiful.  They were fragile
 4     and diverse.
 5  1129                 So to use that as a metaphor, the
 6     thing also about them is that they were all made out of
 7     the same thing, ice.  So I guess you can extend that
 8     metaphor to us as Canadians.  You have probably heard
 9     this before, but in many ways the CBC can serve as that
10     ice, that thing that makes us all the same.
11  1130                 I have been travelling across the
12     country a lot in the last year and the CBC was sort of
13     my cultural touchstone.  It was the thing that reminded
14     me of where I was, because often in so many of our
15     cities now, you can be in Ottawa on a strip and it's
16     the same as Provencher here in Winnipeg, or it's the
17     same as a strip in Calgary, very American,
18     "Blockbuster", you know, "McDonald's", whatever. 
19     People know what I'm talking about.  But the CBC helped
20     remind me of where I was.
21  1131                 It also kind of brings me to I guess
22     the only sort of warning I have.  One of the other
23     things I have been noticing is something I call the
24     regional possessiveness.  I'm not going to use specific
25     examples, but I have seen this possessiveness cause
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 1     strife and discord, this like "No, this is ours.  It's
 2     not for Winnipeg, or it's not for Vancouver."  And I
 3     have seen that same divisiveness within the aboriginal
 4     community, and that is something that has kept us from
 5     achieving our goals for quite a long time, and I don't
 6     want to see it repeated anywhere.  Perhaps one of the
 7     ways to deal with it is to call attention to it if it
 8     ever rears its head.
 9  1132                 I haven't seen examples of that
10     within the CBC, luckily, but I have seen it in a book
11     that I put out called "Joe From Winnipeg", and my
12     publisher can't sell it anywhere other than Winnipeg
13     because he is told its regional.  So the next book is
14     going to be called "The Book of Joe".  Anyway --
15     --- Laughter / Rires
16  1133                 MR. ROSS:  You know, unfortunately a
17     lot of these booksellers were from Toronto and I'm not
18     going to pick on them because I understand it's colder
19     there than here right now.  They need our sympathy.
20  1134                 Anyway, when I was young and spending
21     part of my youth on the Reserve, there is only one
22     station up there, and that was the CBC.  There was no
23     such thing as this 500 channel universe that we all
24     talk about that we now live in.  It wasn't even
25     imagined back then.  I mean, our TVs went up to 13 and
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 1     there was the "U" channel that you always put it on but
 2     never seemed to work.
 3  1135                 But we would wait for the end of the
 4     programming day to see Fairford Channel 7.  I realize
 5     now that was probably a law or something, but that
 6     sense of inclusion that gave us, or recognition, went
 7     further than playing the Anthem, which they did at the
 8     same time.  So that's again some of the power that the
 9     CBC can have.  It's very subtle and it's all around us. 
10     It's kind of like that ice I was talking about earlier,
11     we sort of take it for granted, although it's there,
12     but it's also fragile, like I said, as we are seeing
13     now.
14  1136                 As far as inclusion, I think I am a
15     prime example for that.  I literally walked in off the
16     street, that's how I got involved with CBC radio and
17     television, thanks to my producer Tom Anneco.  He just
18     took a meeting with me and now I can say that it has
19     been very enriching and rewarding for me doing my
20     commentaries as "Joe From Winnipeg".
21  1137                 People often say that CBC is elitist,
22     and I think that is somewhat of an excuse, because I
23     have found it be anything but.  And it should continue
24     to do everything that it can to make us all feel
25     connected and part of a greater community of this
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 1     country that we call Canada, because there is so much
 2     now that can keep us at home.  We can literally become
 3     just sort of big heads living in our house.  We don't
 4     have to leave home any more, we can do banking over the
 5     phone, over the Internet, shopping, you name it.  So
 6     rather than something that keeps us smaller, I think
 7     it's something that can help us grow.
 8  1138                 I guess personally the example I
 9     witnessed of that sort of power of what the CBC can do
10     was when I spoke at the Winnipeg Harvest Breakfast,
11     which is a food bank here.  I had been doing my
12     commentaries for a few months and I had no sense of who
13     I was talking to.  I can see all of you, so I'm talking
14     to you or the people behind me.  But when I record
15     these things there was just me and my producer Tom and
16     a microphone.  But when I went there the response was
17     quite overwhelming, and it's still overwhelming when
18     people come and talk to me and say they appreciate what
19     I do.  Mine is just one voice, there are thousands and
20     millions of others out there.
21  1139                 So finally, I guess, the CBC should
22     continue to go with the passion that is demonstrated
23     that we see here today, all these people who have come
24     and put their time and effort into speaking about what
25     it means to them, and what it means to me.  Again, it's
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 1     a subtle thing, it's not something that I can pinpoint
 2     and say "Yes, it does that", because the CBC does many
 3     things, and in many different ways.
 4  1140                 So my thanks for letting you listen
 5     to me.
 6  1141                 Meegwetch!
 7     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 8  1142                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
 9     Mr. Ross.
10  1143                 Mr. Secretary.
11  1144                 MR. KRUSHEN:  Thank you, Madam Chair.
12  1145                 At this point I would now like to go
13     through the list of presenters again recalling the
14     people who were not in the room when I made the initial
15     call.
16  1146                 If any of the following are here,
17     would they please come up to the table:  Ross Madder,
18     Tim Watts, Derek Dabee, Tom Toothier, Jeff Brennan,
19     Stuart Clark, Ruth and Kris Breckman, Antony Waterman,
20     Don Laluk and Nigel Basely.
21  1147                 You may begin when you are ready,
22     Mr. Laluk.
23     PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
24  1148                 MR. LALUK:  It seems that in the late
25     1800s, early 1900s it was very difficult for western
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 1     Canada, Winnipeg, Calgary, Alberta, Saskatoon, to
 2     recruit doctors, and there is a documented story of a
 3     doctor that was a young doctor came to somewhere in
 4     Saskatchewan and one of his first duties was to deliver
 5     a child in a country home outside of Saskatoon.  He
 6     came to the home as a young doctor, probably had the
 7     experience of delivering maybe three or four children,
 8     to a country farmhouse.  The lady had already had six
 9     children and they were all delivered by a midwife.  The
10     doctor came to the home and came into probably a
11     two-room country farmhouse where the woman was, he
12     said, ready to deliver the child.  In the corner was
13     sitting the midwife who had already delivered six of
14     this family's children.  Of course, she was sitting
15     there not very exited about the new doctor, this young
16     boy from Toronto coming to deliver one of her patient's
17     children.
18                                                        2046
19  1149                 The story goes that the doctor came
20     knowing that the woman was ready to deliver, and for
21     some reason she simply wouldn't.  And he had the
22     presence of mind enough to ask the midwife if she would
23     help him.  She said, "Well, if you really think you
24     want me to help you", she said, "maybe we should quill
25     her".  Of course, not knowing what that really meant,
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 1     he said "Well, maybe that's a good idea.  Why don't I
 2     boil the water and you can get it ready."  So she asked
 3     him to go to the barnyard and pick out the largest
 4     goose quill that he could find.  He came back with the
 5     goose quill and he said -- she asked him, she said
 6     "Would you like to do it or would you want me to do
 7     it?"  He said, "No, I think you had better do it",
 8     having no idea what she was going -- what she was about
 9     to do.
10  1150                 She walked up to the woman and took
11     the goose quill and stroked it under her nose. 
12     Subsequently the woman sneezed and gave birth to the
13     child.
14     --- Laughter / Rires
15  1151                 MR. LALUK:  Some of you must have
16     heard that story before.
17  1152                 I delight in telling that story to my
18     medical friends because it is a true and documented
19     story.  It was on Lister Sinclair's Ideas many years
20     ago.  While my daughter was serving a church mission I
21     taped that story and sent it to her, along with many
22     others from As It Happens and other programs.
23  1153                 I remember seeing several years ago
24     the picture "Cinema Paridiso", and I'm sure that many
25     of us have seen that movie, and after leaving the movie
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 1     it really -- it really came to my mind that here in a
 2     little Sicilian village after the Second World War,
 3     probably in the early '50s, the entire small village of
 4     600 or 800 people gathered every week to watch a movie. 
 5     And what did they watch?  They watched John Wayne,
 6     Marilyn Munroe, all the American stars.  And we don't
 7     realize how much influence and the propaganda the
 8     American movie industry has been.  All over the world
 9     people are watching and listening to what I call the
10     new American heros, Vanna White and what's his name,
11     and we don't realize how important an influence I think
12     that we have by our only real national radio station,
13     and one of the identifiers of who we are as Canadians.
14  1154                 So obviously we need to restore the
15     funding, and my vote is just that, to restore the
16     funding and to continue on our great radio.
17  1155                 Thank you.
18     --- Applause / Applaudissement
19  1156                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you,
20     Mr. Laluk.
21  1157                 This concludes the presenters that we
22     had registered.  As I stated initially, we will now
23     provide to CBC the opportunity to provide any rebuttal
24     that they would wish.
25  1158                 Is it you, Mr. Bertrand?
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 1     REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
 2  1159                 MR. BERTRAND:  Yes.  Thank you very
 3     much.
 4  1160                 Thank you very much, Commissioner
 5     Cram and Commissioner Wylie.
 6  1161                 It has been a long day and it's
 7     getting late so I will be as brief as possible.
 8  1162                 My name is John Bertrand, I am the
 9     Regional Director of Radio for CBC here in Manitoba. 
10     With me this evening, sitting in the front row, is Carl
11     Carp, who is the Program Director for CBC Television in
12     Manitoba and Saskatchewan.  Also in the audience today,
13     throughout the day, have been representatives of our
14     French language sister services, and of the English
15     radio and television networks, including the
16     Vice-Presidents Alex Frame and Harold Redekopp for
17     Television.
18  1163                 I said this at an earlier session, we
19     have been here primarily to listen -- and I underline
20     that -- to listen, because what Manitobans have to say
21     about the CBC is extremely important to all of us.  We
22     have been taking very careful note, I have been
23     frantically jotting down notes, and we have made note
24     of all the comments that people have made throughout
25     the day in all of the sessions, and we are going to
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 1     follow up on every single one of them.
 2  1164                 In fact, we intend to respond to them
 3     directly and personally in writing to every individual
 4     who took the time and effort to make a presentation
 5     today, and I thank all of them personally for doing
 6     that.  We thank them very much for their support, their
 7     suggestions and very constructive criticism.
 8  1165                 Most of all I think we thank them for
 9     their obvious interest in and concern for the CBC and
10     what it means to all Manitobans and all Canadians.  I
11     was quite moved by the fact, I think, that many people
12     spoke with real thoughtfulness and eloquence,
13     conviction, and a word we used I think, Commissioner,
14     in an earlier session "passion".  A lot of people
15     mentioned passion.
16  1166                 People spoke from the mind, and they
17     also spoke very much, I thought, from the heart.
18  1167                 Many of the issues raised here today
19     will be addressed through the CBC's licence renewal
20     process, issues like local news coverage, regional
21     production for both regional and network broadcast, the
22     exchange of programs among regions and between French
23     and English Canada; the most effective way to provide
24     international new coverage with a Canadian perspective,
25     and that was raised several times; the proper place of
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 1     both professional and amateur sports in our television
 2     schedule; the best way -- and this came up this
 3     evening -- to repeat programs so that everyone who
 4     wants to see and hear an item can do so without these
 5     items wearing out their welcome.  These are obviously
 6     matters that are important to many of the people who
 7     showed up here today, and they are very important to us
 8     as well at CBC.
 9  1168                 We will be using the licence renewal
10     process to confirm our continuing commitment to fair,
11     balanced, independent, in-depth and investigative
12     journalism.  All of that is very important.  And our
13     ongoing support for Canadian talent from the Manitoba
14     Chamber Orchestra, who was represented here tonight,
15     and the Winnipeg Folk Festival, to local playwrights
16     and producers.  We will demonstrate that what we are
17     doing to address First Nations issues and to present
18     the voices, faces, stories and talents of Canadians of
19     all backgrounds in our programming.  We will address
20     issues of coverage, and as well the issue -- the big
21     issue, the use of new technologies.
22  1169                 In the area of public accountability,
23     and again that was an issue that has come up a few
24     times, the CBC has made, I believe very much,
25     significant efforts to make itself more accessible and
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 1     accountable to people of Canada, and of Manitoba in
 2     recent years, and we intend to redouble those efforts
 3     in the future.
 4  1170                 Because, as several presenters made
 5     clear today, our listeners and viewers are shareholders
 6     in what we do.  They are the owners of CBC Manitoba,
 7     CBC across the country, CBC radio, CBC French, CBC
 8     television, all aspects of it.  You are the people who
 9     are the shareholders and the owners of all of that.  It
10     is your -- and I think a few people said it -- it is
11     your CBC.
12  1171                 In closing, Commissioners -- and
13     again I said this earlier -- I just want to say how
14     grateful the CBC is to have the opportunity to hear
15     directly from Manitobans about what they think about
16     CBC radio and CBC television.  I am personally very
17     gratified and I know my colleagues are gratified by the
18     strong support expressed by so many of today's
19     speakers, and we are determined to do everything we can
20     to earn and deserve that support of the people here in
21     the future.
22  1172                 We are also very much committed to do
23     our best to address the concerns that have been raised
24     by everyone here today.
25  1173                 On behalf of my colleagues, thank you
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 1     very much for what really was an enthralling day in a
 2     lot of ways, a very stimulating day, satisfying, and I
 3     hope a productive day as well.
 4  1174                 Thank you very much.
 5     --- Applause / Applaudissement
 6  1175                 THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.
 7  1176                 Thank you each and every one for
 8     coming to this consultation.
 9     --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2100 /
10         L'audience est ajournée à 2100
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