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Please note that the Official Languages Act requires that government publications be available in both official languages.
In order to meet some of the requirements under this Act, the Commission's transcripts will therefore be bilingual as to their covers, the listing of CRTC members and staff attending the hearings, and the table of contents.
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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES AVANT
CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Embassy Suites Hotel Embassy Suites Hotel
Rooms A/B/C Salons A/B/C
6700 Fallsview Boulevard 6700, boulevard Fallsview
Niagara Falls, Ontario Niagara Falls (Ontario)
June 8, 2005 Le 8 juin 2005
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCAST APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Charles Dalfen Chairperson / Président
Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère
Richard French Commissioner / Conseillier
Rita Cugini Commissioner / Conseillère
Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseillier
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Chantal Boulet Secretary / Secrétaire
James Murdock Legal Counsel /
Steve Parker Hearing Manager /
Gérant de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Embassy Suites Hotel Embassy Suites Hotel
Rooms A/B/C Salons A/B/C
6700 Fallsview Boulevard 6700, boulevard Fallsview
Niagara Falls, Ontario Niagara Falls (Ontario)
June 8, 2005 Le 8 juin 2005
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Sound of Faith Broadcasting 769 / 4531
Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited 772 / 4550
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Buchanan & Company Limited 789 / 4663
Kean Distribution Services 791 / 4578
Paul Young 794 / 4692
Bob McDonald 797 / 4708
Cheryl Lewington 801 / 4731
Nutri-awn (Kelli Koopman) 810 / 4805
Robert Q Travel and Airbus 813 / 4824
Stephen Molnar 822 / 4878
George Fox 838 / 4975
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR
Tillsonburg Broadcasting 856 / 5088
Sound of Faith Broadcasting 870 / 5158
Newcap Inc. 876 / 5196
CHUM Limited 882 / 5220
Standard Radio Inc. 887 / 5238
Byrnes Communications Inc. 895 / 5270
Niagara Falls, Ontario / Niagara Falls (Ontario)
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday June 8, 2005, at 0935 /
L'audience reprend le mercredi 8 juin 2005 à 0935
seq level0 \h \r4523 seq level1 \h \r0 seq level2 \h \r0 seq level3 \h \r0 seq level4 \h \r0 seq level5 \h \r0 seq level6 \h \r0 seq level7 \h \r0 4524 THE CHAIRPERSON: À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît. Order please.
4525 Madam secretary, would you call the next item.
4526 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4527 We have now reached Phase II, in which applicants appear in the same order to intervene on competing applications if they wish.
4528 Byrnes Communications, Standard Radio, CHUM and Newcap have indicated that they will not appear in Phase II.
4529 Therefore, we would ask Sound of Faith to intervene on the competing applications.
4530 Dr. Reid, you may approach the table and you have ten minutes to make your intervention.
4531 DR. REID: All right. As we look down this list, then, we look at Byrnes Communication and we look at the past record of their involvement in Woodstock and I think that there's a possibility that they may come to the market, develop a good radio station and then Mr. Marratto would follow his previous procedure and sell out to another large company.
4532 That would leave Woodstock still deficient in a local radio station other than ours that provides news, weather, sports and commentaries.
4533 That's a temptation that they've been through before and I think that's a valid possibility of their future performance.
4534 I think the adult contemporary music is good, but I think that probably that market is already well serviced by other providers coming into the area.
4535 I think that the news, weather and sports could be ‑‑ and local news could be dealt with by ourselves equally as well as Byrnes.
4536 I forget which one of these stations wanted to have a very narrow rock music format, from 18 to 25 or 18 to 35.
4537 I don't think that's going to work in the Woodstock area. I think it might work in Toronto, but I don't think that there's the demand for that kind of music in Woodstock.
4538 Going down to the Tillsonburg application, I would really feel that it's in our best interests in we combined forces with Tillsonburg and that if they got the 104.7 application and we then applied for an expanded 94.3 application that we could cover Woodstock and Oxford County with news, weather and sports, emergency responses and adequate coverage of the whole area.
4539 We have a different music medium than Tillsonburg would be providing and therefore that would not be competing.
4540 We would be competing for advertising dollars and that ‑‑ that's a reality which I think no matter who comes to the market there's going to be a change in the dynamics of the distribution of advertising dollars.
4541 So I would think that we would be best served by going with Tillsonburg.
4542 Now, we've had the experience in Woodstock of The Hawk and basically it's a very small market and the big players in the market would tend to look at Woodstock as a statistic.
4543 And I have not examined other radio stations in Lindsay and Brockville and so on to see how they function. Maybe they function very well and the CRTC is in the best position to assess that, but my perception is that these larger companies may well just consider Woodstock a statistic and that we ‑‑ the needs of the community will not be well served by these large companies as opposed to people who live there, work there and have their roots there.
4544 I think that's sufficient.
4545 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much.
4546 Madam Secretary.
4547 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
4548 We would now ask Tillsonburg to intervene on the competing applications.
4549 Mr. Craig, you have ten minutes for your presentation.
4550 MR. CRAIG: I don't think we'll take all of that.
4551 First of all, before we do that, you had a question or a couple of questions to be answered on population.
4552 Would you like Jim to elaborate on that right now?
4553 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
4554 MR. MOLTNER: Just to restate the question. Commissioner Cram asked if we were required to utilize one of the alternate frequencies and we were to site it at the optimal site what impact would it have on our population coverage and our cost of implementation. I believe I have that correct.
4555 If we were to go with the 94.3 frequency we could locate it at our current CKOT‑FM site. The cost implications would be negligible with respect to our original application, however the coverage, and I'm speaking half millivolt coverage here, would drop from approximately 303,000 to about 138,000.
4556 Secondly, if we were to go with the 107.3 frequency, we could not site it at our current CKOT‑FM site. We would have to locate some fifteen kilometres east. There is no existing broadcast site in the vicinity, so we would not have the option of mounting our antenna on an existing tower. We would have to build our own site.
4557 The cost increment for that, including towers, site, building, et cetera, et cetera, is estimated at approximately half a million dollars above what it would cost to implement our original application.
4558 The population within the half millivolt would drop from approximately 303,000 to 165,000.
4559 And I would just add on the 107.3 frequency, that is at the top end of the FM band. There's a very distinct potential for interference to aeronautical navigation equipment. There's no way of knowing that without submitting it for a full analysis to NAV CAN, but it's quite possible that we would not be allowed to operates at anywhere near the power levels contemplated in this current analysis, which would obviously reduce the population much further.
4560 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Could I ask a question, Mr. Chair, before we get to the sort of rebuttal? Is this an appropriate time?
4561 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is. This won't count towards your rebuttal. This is in response to your question, so go ahead.
4562 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you. This may not be a fair question, but on the off chance that you do it would be helpful.
4563 You're talking about audiences, potential audiences of 138,000 for 94.3 and 165,000 for 107.3. Always assuming you could do and afford to do it, speaking academically here. Do you have any notion of what the audiences would be for the other plans put forward by the other applicants?
4564 MR. CRAIG: Yes.
4565 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: What kind of numbers are they going to be, you know, from Byrnes right through to Newcap, Standard, CHUM.
4566 MR. CRAIG: Oh, I'm sorry, in terms of their full audiences or the ‑‑
4567 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, have you looked at what they're building their business plan on?
4568 MR. CRAIG: In terms of audience we‑‑ you know, that's too bad, because we could have had Jim do an analysis for you ‑‑
4569 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right. I just thought of it now.
4570 MR. CRAIG: ‑‑ of what was inside. We can tell you that the Byrnes original plan, as I think we said, took it down to 30,000 for us.
4571 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No, no, I'm ‑‑
4572 MR. CRAIG: No, I know, you're talking about the ‑‑
4573 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm wondering what Byrnes himself ‑‑
4574 MR. CRAIG: Yes.
4575 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Do you have any in sense of what they're going to get?
4576 In other words, I understand in the context only of your history, your point is well understood by us, that your shrinking an old huge AM footprint to a much smaller FM footprint and I think all of us here understand that.
4577 What I'm not clear on is how simply comparing your different FM footprints to Byrnes, CHUM, Newcap, Standard, how they compare in terms of numbers.
4578 If you have no idea perhaps we'll find an opportunity to ask them at some time, on reply or ‑‑
4579 MR. CRAIG: Maybe I can put ‑‑ and I think a fairly good educated guesstimate and, Jim, correct me if I'm wrong.
4580 Those that put a footprint that gets into London and ours has a footprint that touches into the east end of London, gives us 303,000 ‑‑ we thought it was more like 310 ‑‑ but it's about 303,500 roughly.
4581 If you take that and compare it to someone who puts a footprint right across London, then you can add another perhaps as much as 200,000 to that.
4582 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And if you have one that doesn't get into London ‑‑
4583 MR. CRAIG: That doesn't get into London ‑‑
4584 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: ‑‑ or gets in badly interfered with.
4585 MR. CRAIG: Then take that back down to ‑‑ would I be correct in saying about 200, 225,000 Jim?
4586 MR. MOLTNER: I can't say, but it seems to me those population figures should be in the respective applications.
4587 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm sure they are, but I just don't have it all in front of me and when you think of a question and you have an expert in front of you it's awfully tempting to ask.
4588 MR. CRAIG: And that's okay. I'm sorry we can't answer that for you. If I had all of their applications in front of me, which I have upstairs ‑‑
4589 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: No, I'm sure we can get it ourselves. I just thought we had you here and the time might be right and we could take a shortcut and you'd think by my age I'd learn that shortcuts always talk longer.
4590 All right. That's my question, Mr. Chair.
4591 MR. CRAIG: That's what my wife always says.
4592 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Moltner, the map that you submitted with the application in August 2004 draws the footprint of the 104.7 frequency from the site. Have you done the same exercise for the 94.3?
4593 MR. MOLTNER: Yes, I have roughly.
4594 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. We were talking about you submitting something to us if the work is done. Would you be prepared to show us that?
4595 I don't think any of your diagrams yesterday did that particular exercise, did they?
4596 MR. MOLTNER: No, they did not.
4597 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have that exercise done and could you let us see it? In other words, the estimated coverage contours of 94.3 from the same site?
4598 MR. MOLTNER: I have it done and I can submit it.
4599 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.
4600 MR. MOLTNER: As long as you appreciate that it's a very preliminary design. It wasn't taken to the stage of optimizing everything. It was a very quick brush stroke look at it.
4601 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, you know, I certainly don't want you to submit anything you're not professionally comfortable with and I can tell that you're very, very professional.
4602 I'm just asking you, it might help to us get a sense of it but if, again ‑‑ you're not going to be proud of the work, so to speak, then that's okay. We'll get it some other way.
4603 MR. MOLTNER: Okay. We'll submit it.
4604 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I want you to be satisfied that ‑‑
4605 MR. MOLTNER: I feel comfortable.
4606 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Well, thank you.
4607 MR. MOLTNER: Thank you for the compliment.
4608 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. So, gentlemen, the clock starts.
4609 MR. CRAIG: Okay, good. Thank you.
4610 John is with me here and I'm speaking on behalf of the Lamers family and Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited.
4611 This intervention by Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited, application number 2004‑1290‑9.
4612 First off, we're going to deal in general with all of the applications for the Woodstock call, Byrnes Communications, Standard, CHUM Newcap and the Sound of Faith Broadcasting enterprise and we'll also include some specific interventions on some of the specific applications as we go through.
4613 First of all, three local radio stations already serve Woodstock, namely, CKDK, which is licensed to operate as a Woodstock radio station, owned by Corus and currently broadcasting in compliance 45 hours per week from their studios and offices which are maintained on the main street of Woodstock.
4614 CJFH, which is the Sound of Faith, with a low‑power license operating in and covering Woodstock.
4615 CKOT 101.3 FM Easy 101 operates from Tillsonburg, covers Woodstock and Ingersoll with a three millivolt signal, which by definition makes it local to those markets and has served these communities as part of its local market for four decades.
4616 Arguably there's a fourth ‑‑ CKOT AM 1510, which has been licensed to serve Oxford, Elgin, Norfolk County since 1955 and Oxford County includes Woodstock and Ingersoll and, of course, Tillsonburg and to our knowledge these geographic parameters of our license as it was originally granted have never changed.
4617 However, our daytime technical encumbrances make it difficult to do so and that's, of course, why we're here.
4618 Our CKOT newsroom diligently dedicates a majority of its efforts to news and sports coverage, weather reports, storm alerts and road and traffic information relevant to listeners in Oxford County, which includes the people of Woodstock, Ingersoll and immediate areas, contrary to the impression that other applicants in their presentations have left ‑‑ and their applications have left of no local news or event coverage by stations in the market or elsewhere.
4619 In fact, CKOT already does cover the market from a news‑gathering perspective and we can give you examples like rubella outbreak, the exclusive news coverage of the Woodstock election or bielection recently.
4620 Our daily news content, and to this point, from Oxford County, which includes Woodstock and Ingersoll ‑‑ Jerry Daniel, I think, misunderstood the question and maybe misspoke when he said 70 per cent of our total news content is from Woodstock, Ingersoll. He meant the Oxford region, which includes Woodstock, Ingersoll and, in fact last night I got on the phone, I checked with our newsroom and I could do so because we have people in our newsroom after seven o'clock every day.
4621 Yesterdays two‑thirds of our news stories aired were from the region and over 75 per cent of those were Oxford stories, Woodstock, Ingersoll, Tillsonburg et cetera, et cetera.
4622 In contrast to any inference of little or no local source of radio news coverage, we're doing it now and we're promising 10.5 weekly hours of newscast, which is more than double anyone else.
4623 The diversity of news voices in the market as favoured by the Commission is satisfied, contrary to other opinions and some misinformed research.
4624 Over 25 per cent of our Tillsonburg Broadcasting annual revenues are realized through sales efforts in Woodstock, Ingersoll and surrounding areas.
4625 Approval of any one of the applications for the Woodstock call will have serious negative financial impact on our long‑established sales proceeds from the overall Woodstock, Ingersoll Oxford County market we served and are licensed to do so.
4626 Additionally Sound of Faith will and already have with "Focus on the Family" siphoned off revenues from religious programs that we carry on CKOT‑AM with serious fiscal consequences.
4627 We do have sales staff living and working in Woodstock too and a sales office there.
4628 All of the application signals encroach severely on the current Tillsonburg CMA, which includes all of Oxford County south of the municipal limits butting right up against Woodstock and Ingersoll.
4629 Two of the applicants, CHUM and Standard, include the town of Tillsonburg in their strongest three millivolt contours. This poses direct threat to our revenues right at home and a more acute hardship on Tillsonburg Broadcasting.
4630 The question remains, as I listened yesterday and I know you had many of these questions too. Do any of these huge broadcast conglomerates really need another area station to augments their existing regional casting presence or will these proposed stations be truly local over the medium‑ long‑term or are they designed to actually serve the larger markets as soon as possible?
4631 Sound of Faith intends to institute a full‑blown commercial Christian radio undertaking. Its coverage map shows a significant signal encroachment over our current CMA and here's another threat to us, of course.
4632 Although each applicants' proposed music format does not compete with CKOT‑AM Country 1510, all but Standard and Sound of Faith conflict with the menu of easy listening music offered by our sister flagship and main revenue‑bearing station Easy 101.
4633 Any drift to a softer music will overlap and directly duplicate a significant portion of our daily Easy 101 music and the general style of the station. This is an important consideration in the overall scheme of things in regards to Tillsonburg Broadcasting as a whole and, again, if the Commission licenses any new radio station for Woodstock, irrepairable damage to our fiscal well‑being and ability to carry on our broadcasting bills will occur.
4634 Three of the Woodstock call applications already own and/or operates a total of eight radio stations plus a television station broadcasting into the call area from close by communities of London and kitchener: CHUM with COOL FM and Oldies 1090 in Kitchener and BOB FM in London the new PLTV in London; Standard with BX 93 FM, Q97.5 FM, CJBK‑AM and CKSL‑AM in London; and Newcap in partnership with Larch with the country station CIKZ‑FM in Kitchener, which has just been approved for a new stronger signal.
4635 Now, will this simply be another big corporate broadcaster revenue profit opportunity for these companies through the utilization of regional operation and staffing efficiencies, quote, unquote.
4636 It might not be prudent to a large corporate broadcaster, but despite our restricted revenue, keeping qualified quality communicators is a priority to maintain the best personnel possible.
4637 We staff up our AM as a full time without downsizing for the shorter winter months and, in fact, will be adding six or more staff to execute a new full‑time 104.7 license.
4638 And, number 8, so many of the other applicants are pledging huge sums of money to CTD. Huge.
4639 We have pledged ‑‑ and you'll find it in our application ‑‑ $5400 dollars a year direct, that includes $400 for FACTOR, and that goes to a total over seven years of 37,8 plus an indirect of $15,000 annually associated with some of our efforts in the area of CTD. That's 105,000 over seven, which is a total of 142,800. But, you know, let's call it what it is. It's $37,800 that we can afford to CTD.
4640 Now, that may not sound like much. It's certainly not as much as the other guys, but in a smaller market one's commitment of cash must include many other items, such as a recent pledge to of $20,000 to Orchestra London. Is that CTD?
4641 Our monetary support of the Kiwanis Music Festival on an annual basis. Then there are non‑music items that you have to do in a local market like that, such as ‑‑ and this is just one of many that the Lamers family have done ‑‑ a $50,000 cash donation to the local arena fund and sponsorships and many other things.
4642 The other applicants may have outdone us in their pure CTD commitments, but in the scheme things I think we keep up.
4643 You know, Jerry Daniel was very passionate about the news, et cetera, et cetera, and what we do for news and he left me with a couple of sheets here that I know I'm not going to get in, but we certainly trust that the Commissioners fully understand where we're coming from and will regard our interventions accordingly and judge our application on its merit.
4644 And we thank you very, very much for allowing us to present and be here.
4645 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Commissioner Cram.
4646 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I'm sorry, I'm not an engineer. I came to the Commission not being an engineer and I expect to get my ring when it's all over.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
4647 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I just wanted to be clear. You have agreed to file the optimum coverage contour for 94.3, but 107.3 at the site that you were proposing in your evidence today, have we got a copy of that coverage, of that contour coverage?
4648 MR. MOLTNER: I will file a map which shows the three frequencies overlaid on a single map.
4649 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Because I was worried we were at a different site. Okay. Thank you very much.
4650 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Mr. Craig.
4651 Just you said that you were doing 10.5 hours weekly of news. Were you referring to your AM station and you're also committing to that for 104.7?
4652 MR. CRAIG: As it stands right now 101.3 does 10.4 of pure, news, weather, sports plus a lot of other things in spoken word, which would ‑‑ I think we calculated it up to about 15 hours a week.
4653 Our commitment for 104.7 for CKOT Country is the same. We will have news hourly 6A to 11P. There will be longer newscasts at strategic times, eight o'clock in the morning, twelve noon, five and six p.m. and eleven, which add to it and take it up to a 10.4 total of pure news per week plus we'll have other such things an marine weather, farm, there will be broadcasts and so on, so it's substantial.
4654 THE CHAIRPERSON: That would take you up to the 15.
4655 MR. CRAIG: Yes.
4656 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Those are our questions. Thanks very much.
4657 MR. CRAIG: Thank you so much.
4658 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary.
4659 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This now completes Phase II.
4660 THE SECRETARY: We will proceed to Phase III in which other parties appear in the order set out in the agenda to present their intervention.
4661 We would now ask the following interventions to appear as a panel and they are Buchanan & Company, Paul Young, Uvalux International and Robert McDonald. If you would come to the front table.
4662 We would ask that you introduce yourself before you speak and you have each ten minutes for your presentation.
4663 MR. BUCHANAN: Steve Buchanan, Buchanan & Company Limited.
4664 Buchanan & Company Limited owns 10 factories in Canada. We are one of the largest tanning, indoor tanning companies, independently‑owned tanning companies in Canada.
4665 We currently operate five stores in Southwestern Ontario, over 43,000 customers, and a million customer visits since 1999.
4666 We recently, 16 months ago, opened a store in the City of Woodstock. Today it has about 2600 customers and eight employees.
4667 The significance of our moving into the Woodstock market is part of a growth strategy that will see us take into the Kitchener, Waterloo and Guelph Golden Horseshoe area over time, so it made good strategic sense to move into Woodstock, given its location in our Southwestern Ontario base.
4668 A large part of our marketing strategy relies on radio. In fact, of our total advertising dollars about 70 per cent goes into radio.
4669 We rely on radio to build a strong brand franchise obviously and also to help us build traffic through our promotional efforts.
4670 One of the interesting things about moving into the Woodstock market 16 months ago, we had to take a strategy which heretofore proved extremely successful in the Southwestern Ontario market and totally changed that strategy, because the current radio offering for that Woodstock market in no way, shape or form met our needs. It still continues not to meet or needs and had to drastically change our strategies to communicate our message to our customers in that Woodstock Market.
4671 I'm here obviously in support of CHUM Limited.
4672 A couple of issues that are important for my supporting CHUM. Number 1, having worked with CHUM since they came into the London market and servicing our London/St. Thomas stores, not only their extreme professionalism, but the way ‑‑ you know, it's a large company and I'm just a little guy, working with a large company, their professionalism, but the fact that they're in tune to our needs at a local level.
4673 The way they operate the particular station, I'm very pleased to say it's more of a relationship of a small town where I grew up listening to small town radio than a relationship with a large conglomerate out of the Big Smoke.
4674 The second thing that's very important to me with supporting CHUM's bid is that I know they have the financial and professional wherewithal that would establish themselves in the Woodstock market.
4675 They will not only satisfy my needs as an advertiser, which is, of course, important, but they will be there in the long term to make sure that there's stability in that market for advertisers like myself, but most importantly for my customers, so my customers will be able to count on a place that they can hear our message, hear our information and determine whether or not they want to use our services.
4676 So to me it's extremely important that CHUM is allowed to go into this markets, because they really will in the long term make the difference, be stable, be there and will be able to satisfy the local needs.
4677 Thank you.
4678 MR. KEAN: My name is Mike Kean and I'm the president of Kean Distribution Services in Woodstock.
4679 I'm sharing time here with Steve and we thank you for the opportunity to speak to the Commission.
4680 My business is distribution in mainly golf products. We're currently located in Woodstock. I'm a lifelong citizen of Woodstock, born and raised, and have been looking at possible media opportunities, more related to television than to radio, but ‑‑ so I'm going to speak more from a citizenship standpoint than a business standpoint, although I'm looking for opportunities in that area to promote. Unfortunately the products that I'm promoting right now are not conducive to radio; they're conducive to television.
4681 So what I would like to talk about is the fact that I was born and raised in Woodstock, listened to all the radio stations there over the years and realized that there's something lacking in Woodstock at this time.
4682 I actually love the classic rock format of the current radio station that is there, I wouldn't change did for anything, but I understand the needs of the community for community services.
4683 One of the things that compelled my wife and I to look at the application and go and see about it was the approach that CHUM takes in communities. We've watched over the years, especially, how they approach a small community, what Citytv has done with some of the television stations that they've bought, and we've always been very impressed with their approach.
4684 They came to our community and they didn't ask what we could do for them; they asked what they could do for us.
4685 So when they came into the community they were looking for opportunity to help the community. So they wanted to meld into the community as opposed to bringing their format in.
4686 As Steve mentioned, the other important thing to me, being a 30‑year businessman in automotive prior to starting my own business was that they have the backing, the financial support, they have a financial plan, they know that they're not going to make money right away. They know it's going to take a lot of commitment to the community to get to the point where they actually can start moving forward and they have a five‑year business plan to do so.
4687 They're going to ‑‑ they have staying power, so they're going to stay with the community, they're going to look at the opportunities to support the community.
4688 And the mix that they have with music, which I think is a good format for my business, because I don't think I'd be playing classic rock in my place of business, I'd be playing more easy listening music and the fact that they're going to have support for home events.
4689 I've spoke to many people in the community, I've done my homework on this. I understand that they are going do support the community with community events, something that has been lacking since the K104 days in the Woodstock area.
4690 Most people in the community want that back. These particular people are the people that we feel can offer that to the community, anybody that I've spoken to, and that's why I'm supporting CHUM.
4691 Thank you.
4692 MR. YOUNG: Hi. My name is Paul Young. I'm just a private citizen from Woodstock.
4693 First of all, I want to thank the CRTC for allowing me this opportunity to come to this meeting on behalf of CHUM.
4694 This is my first one, so I'm a little nervous, so just bear with me, if you can.
4695 I believe that besides CHUM there are other groups applying for the license.
4696 One is Newcap, which is a large corporation from the east coast, who I've never heard of until yesterday; another is Standard Broadcasting from Toronto; the third is a Tillsonburg radio station who, from what I've heard through the grapevine are willing to flip their AM station for an FM station; and a religious station.
4697 Also an application for the license has been placed by Mr. Byrnes and Mr. Marratto, who previously owned the license in Woodstock until Mr. Marratto decided to sell quite a few years ago for a good profit.
4698 In examining the surrounding areas I'd like to draw your attention to the various station owners in Cambridge. There's Corus with one station. In Kitchener Rogers has two, Newcap has one and CHUM has two. In Guelph Corus has two and in London CHUM has one station, Standard has three and Corus has four.
4699 All the people that I know of that work for the same corporation that I do in different cities all have a lot of respect and admiration for CHUM, because they go back a long time with CHUM. They love their format, they love what they stand for within the community groups.
4700 Mr. Blundell, who works for CHUM Limited in London, has the expertise to set up a local radio station. He has owned and operated several small local radio stations in Canada and as what I've been told is one of the best‑suited people to start a local station.
4701 With their deep pockets CHUM would be able to set up a local radio station involved in the community and the county.
4702 It would be like it used to be when I was a kid. You'd turn on the radio, you'd pick up sporting events that might have been going on with a Senior A hockey team or a major dog show in Woodstock, which Purina puts on. Just something ‑‑ stuff like that where they get involved with the local community.
4703 And the people that would be working for CHUM, their sales reps, their deejays would be from the community or most likely live with inside the community, which means they're there to help support the community as well as them being there for their job.
4704 It's been brought to my attention, being from Woodstock, that the mayor was here, I presume ‑‑ I think it was yesterday and he was on the panel for Mr. Byrnes and Mr. Marratto representing the City of Woodstock.
4705 It's been brought to our attention that the city council never passed any resolution to back Mr. Marratto or Mr. Byrnes. Alls it was was just a resolution to support a local radio station. And I think that the mayor is misleading stating that he has the backing of the city council, which he doesn't.
4706 And I know that Mr. Marratto and Mr. Byrnes from the previous experience, if they got the license in and started the radio station, within a couple of years of maybe just making ends meet could turn around and sell it and I think a good licensed radio station right now would sell for about ten million dollars on a resale value.
4707 Thanks for your time. If you have any questions, feel free.
4708 MR. McDONALD: Good morning. I want to thank the Commission for letting me speak today.
4709 My name is Bob McDonald and I'm with the Oxford Community Police Service. I'm a 20‑year veteran of the local police service in Woodstock, which amalgamated into the Oxford Community Police Service in 1999.
4710 I'd like to explain that I am here representing myself, not our police service, but our police service does believe in the importance of a Woodstock local radio station, as it is a need that needs to be met in our community.
4711 Our police service and myself, including any initiative that I do with the Racing Against Drugs and a substance abuse message that's delivered to children have worked with CHUM in the past and have experienced nothing but good things with CHUM.
4712 The new radio station ‑‑ or the proposed new radio station that CHUM has developed, they came and actually asked me questions as to what our community needs are.
4713 They asked how they could help our community, as opposed to how I could help them get a radio station, which I found impressive.
4714 The need for a local broadcast full‑time radio station in the Woodstock general area is vital to our community.
4715 I work in the Community Relations department. I do media as well as I'm the Crime Stopper coordinator for our area.
4716 I deal with the media on an ongoing basis and we do have a ‑‑ a loophole in our system in the Woodstock general area. We are surrounded by major media on both sides and we don't have a lot of content delivered from the Woodstock area, that being television and the major radio stations.
4717 When I first started my career as a police officer in the Woodstock area we had a vital radio station that provided a lot of community needs.
4718 As those stations have changed hands, our community needs have decreased ‑‑ not our needs, but our community involvement with those stations have decreased with every change that has occurred.
4719 Our geographical area of Woodstock and the general area has one of the busiest highways in North America as well as the two major railway lines running through it. The potential for disaster in our area is very high because of those environmental concerns that are travelling up and down our highways and on our railways.
4720 With that the need for a voice for our community in a time of need or disaster is of vital importance.
4721 Our community has seen a lot of different disasters and emergencies that have occurred, that being from tornadoes, severe storms, blackouts and train derailments.
4722 When I spoke with the CHUM representatives they felt the same concern and need, that we needed to be able to get a message to our community in a fast, effective way.
4723 That being said, there's also other radio stations in our general area that would certainly help with that, but certainly something in the Woodstock general area, a radio is station that a large number of residents would be listening to, would be of vital importance.
4724 They also indicated that they would play a vital role in our community itself, the communities groups that I work closely with that need that commitment from a local radio station.
4725 They indicated that they would be involved with our police service and all our other emergency services as well as helping Crime Stoppers and crime prevention in our area.
4726 They basically are looking at working with our community groups in ways that are innovative and new ideas.
4727 One of the ideas is a Woodstock Music Festival that they've proposed to bring in Canadian talents and actually work on the Woodstock name from the previous Woodstock Festival, I guess you could say, but to actually use those funds to bring Canadian talent, but the profits or revenues from that festival would be given to our charity groups, which I find important.
4728 I believe they have the ability to withstand the growing years of new radio station and they're willing to grow with our community. They have a track record of being here today as well as being here tomorrow.
4729 I believe that's ‑‑ I believe that CHUM has the attitude of growing this radio station with and in our community and have the resources to get the job done, while being responsible and accountable to our community.
4730 And that's all I have to say at this point. Thank you.
4731 MS LEWINGTON: Hello. My name is Cheryl Lewington and I am here as a private individual; however, I am an employee of VIA Rail Canada and have been for thirty years. I have run the Woodstock station for six years.
4732 Every year I am becoming more and more involved in the community through complimentary promotional prizes to support various events and charities.
4733 Some important points to me with regard to CHUM's application is the fact that we need a 24/7 operation.
4734 Now is the 21st century. People work all through the night as well all hours of the day.
4735 I personally do not have time to read a daily newspaper. I want to be ‑‑
4736 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, I think there's a bit of a ‑‑ you weren't called to come up, were you?
4737 MS LEWINGTON: I was told to come up.
4738 THE CHAIRPERSON: Because we don't have you as an appearing intervener here.
4739 Madam Secretary, can you clarify this?
4740 THE SECRETARY: The other intervener that was called was Uvalux International Inc.
4741 MR. YOUNG: Excuse me. I might just be able to answer.
4742 When I applied to appear there was Cheryl's name and my name both submitted on the application that we put forth. My name is Paul Young.
4743 THE CHAIRPERSON: So that's one intervention.
4744 THE SECRETARY: That's correct, Mr. Chairman.
4745 MR. YOUNG: My name is Paul Young.
4746 THE SECRETARY: Yes, that's correct, but that was one intervention so therefore she would have had to share your time.
4747 MR. YOUNG: Oh, we thought we both ‑‑ because we both applied for ‑‑
4748 THE CHAIRPERSON: You didn't use up your ten minutes. Did you time him?
4749 THE SECRETARY: No, I didn't, but you probably have some minutes left, so ...
4750 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead, then.
4751 MS. LEWINGTON: Okay. Thank you.
4752 THE CHAIRPERSON: It's just important that the record be straight.
4753 So I understand, Mr. Young, we do have you as listed together and you're coming in under Mr. Young's umbrella.
4754 Please proceed and I hope I didn't catch you in mid‑flight.
4755 MS. LEWINGTON: Okay, thank you.
4756 Local input would be fabulous to keep abreast of the local happenings and be up to date. I hate to pick up a newspaper and find out three days later that I've missed something.
4757 I would also be able to listen to the radio at work or in the car, saving me valuable time.
4758 On a personal note, I would not like to have a religious station.
4759 Also I feel Easy 101 is slanted more towards Tillsonburg, not Woodstock. I enjoy it, I do listen to it, don't get me wrong, but as a personal listener, this is my view.
4760 CHUM is a recognized name by young and old alike from every walk of life, unlike the others.
4761 I do not want to see a new station make a go of it in Woodstock, only to turn around and sell it seven years later. That would leave us with questionable ownership management.
4762 Thank you for your time.
4763 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Commissioner Langford.
4764 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thanks very much.
4765 I just have some questions, which I want to say in introducing them I understand completely that you're here to support the CHUM application and you did so, all of you, eloquently and I haven't missed that point, but I wanted to ask you more in terms of just where you are now without CHUM or any of the new ones in the community.
4766 Particularly if anybody who does any advertising could help me in the sense of do you advertise now on radio and if you do, what stations do you advertise on?
4767 In trying to reach the Woodstock market do any of you advertise now on radio?
4768 MR. BUCHANAN: Well, Buchanan Company Limited, Tan Factory, huge expenditure every year in radio as a portion of our budget. We just don't reach the Woodstock market with any of our radio advertising to any significant degree unless, of course, I had a bottomless pit an could advertise on eight or nine or ten radio stations that all overlap and fragment that Woodstock market.
4769 I cannot go there right now and make a media buy in radio that delivers the customers that I can in other markets.
4770 A very good example would be in the London market. I use several of the other applicants as well as vendors, radio vendors. CHUM, most professional and delivers me the customers I need.
4771 Woodstock, no chance. I mean ‑‑
4772 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So it's just too fragmented, then. You would have to make too many buys.
4773 MR. BUCHANAN: Yes. I'm using Canada Post, I'm using drops, I'm using all kinds of other vehicles and I have had to totally revamp our strategy for that market because I can't go an say, okay, we're going to use the same strategy that's been very successful in other markets.
4774 Radio does not exist for us in Woodstock.
4775 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And is it Mr. Nichols from the police?
4776 MR. McDONALD: It's McDonald.
4777 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm sorry, I apologize.
4778 If you had to make an announcement for some reason, I don't know, Crime Stoppers, something you had to do in the public interest, what do you do now?
4779 MR. McDONALD: Well, that's interesting that you said that. Previous Crime Stoppers was a media partnership with The Hawk or the previous Q104.
4780 At this point Crime Stoppers actually pays for ads and in lieu of that we get some Crimes of the Weeks on, and which we're at this point in negotiation stage as to where we're going to be with that.
4781 Previously we enjoyed that community involvement free at no charge, but at this point we pay for that.
4782 If you're looking at what are we going to do in the event of an emergency, certainly it's a little bit easier if there was a local broadcast station within the Woodstock area where we could actually attend and get that message out to our citizens.
4783 A prime example of that would be the blackouts that occurred some two years ago, I believe, if I'm not correct on that, the actual date, but on that night that the blackouts occurred we certainly didn't have enough police officers or enough staff of the emergency services to man every street ‑‑ every traffic light within the City of Woodstock.
4784 However, if we could have gone on air and just said, you know, for a point of interest treat all traffic lights that aren't functioning as four‑way stops, just a reminder to our citizens, that in itself would have been of great benefit. That just being one of the little things that may be occurring.
4785 The other thing is the public fear as to what may be occurring during a black out. If we can't get any message to our citizens then, of course, there's unrest and certainly we all fear the worst, whether it's some type of terrorist act or whatever that's created the blackout or what may be coming in the future.
4786 9/11 is a prime example of that. Certainly we can get the message out. Because the only way those people were going to get that message was on their car radios, the message out that this is a blackout, this is not a terrorist act, remain calm, and some details as to what we could do to help them get through the situation.
4787 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much. Those are my questions, Mr. Clair.
4788 THE CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lewington, I would a question for you.
4789 You mentioned that you enjoy Easy 101, but that you said it was slanted towards Tillsonburg.
4790 Could you elaborate on what you mean by that exactly?
4791 MS LEWINGTON: Well, I've listened to 101. In fact, I wake up to it. However, my personal view is that it is slanted more towards Tillsonburg than towards Woodstock.
4792 It's just little things that I pick up through the day from listening to it that it's more towards South Oxford than it is Woodstock, the heart of Woodstock.
4793 THE CHAIRPERSON: When you say more, does that mean that there's no Woodstock coverage or little ‑‑
4794 MS LEWINGTON: No, I'm not saying there's no Woodstock coverage.
4795 What I'm saying is little things that do go on in Woodstock are not picked up by Tillsonburg, obviously.
4796 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do you have an example of that that you'd expect to hear on a radio station that you don't, an event or whatever?
4797 MS LEWINGTON: Perhaps small charitable events that are taking place that are organized locally.
4798 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. So you enjoy the sound of the station, but you find it doesn't give you enough information about your community. Is that what you're saying?
4799 MS LEWINGTON: That is correct. That is exactly it in a nutshell, yes.
4800 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much to the panel. Those are our questions.
4801 Madam Secretary.
4802 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We would now call the next appearing intervener, Mr. Donald Nichols.
4803 The next appearing intervener would be Nutri‑Lawn.
4804 Would you please identify yourself and you have ten minutes for your presentation.
4805 MS KOOPMAN: My name is Kelli Koopman and I was born in Tillsonburg and my family has owned businesses in Tillsonburg for 55 years.
4806 I am currently living in Woodstock and my husband and I own two businesses. He owns Ellis Glass & Mirror and I own Nutri‑Lawn.
4807 In the past I have purchased lots of radio through the London and Oxford County area because I was originally an owner of Execulink Internet Services. I was one of the partners.
4808 So I do believe that radio works. That's number 1 why I'm here. But the two main reasons why I'm here is as a small business owner in Oxford County we sell to primarily women.
4809 We are selling to women between 30 and 55. There is no medium in that ‑‑ in Oxford County that will allow me to do go to my consumer.
4810 I think the Tillsonburg radio station has done a great job for years. My father, Wes Heckford, makes us every year send a Christmas message to all his people in Tillsonburg.
4811 But selling windows and irrigation systems, there's nobody in our area in which I can spend my dollars and reach those people besides the local newspaper, which does a mediocre job of grabbing people's attention in our audience.
4812 So why I'm here with CHUM is I've worked with CHUM, I've worked with Jim Blundell, and he has done a great job and I think CHUM has done a great job going into communities and doing different things.
4813 Just as one of the other ladies had originally spoke, our Woodstock community is raising lots of money for the Woodstock Hospital. Nobody talks about that. I mean, if you pick up the paper you will hear about that, but otherwise there's no other medium to help us.
4814 I think The Hawk has done a great job at doing what they're doing, but I'm not turning it on in our office. It's not going to be our on‑hold music. It's not that format, it's not our demographic.
4815 The Tillsonburg radio station, which does a good job for their local community, they don't ‑‑ they're not reaching my demographic of 30 to 55 year old women. I mean, we're the main purchasers. I mean, women are full time purchasers in the household good. They are.
4816 So why ‑‑ that is one of the reasons I would prefer to have CHUM, because I think their format is going to touch my demographic.
4817 As a local mother my children go to the Christian Private School in Woodstock and you will hear about bus routes and all kinds of things on, you know, larger stations if you go to the Catholic school or the public school, but being a small community school which my children go to, it's very hard during the day to find a radio station that will tell me that the school is closing. Unless somebody contacts me from the school I have no other way of hearing that.
4818 So I just believe that CHUM will do the best job in helping our community grow and Woodstock is on the crux of some major growth.
4819 And I understand, Mr. Harding, our mayor, was here and he has done a great job at turning this community into busting at the seams, where it's going to grow to a larger community and we need to be serviced locally as a business owner and as a mother of three children.
4820 I want to be able to turn on a radio station and hear music that is pleasing to my consumers, but also hear what is happening in my local community. Thank you.
4821 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
4822 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, I would call the next appearing intervener and that is Robert Q Travel and Airbus.
4823 Would you please identify yourself before you speak. You have ten minutes for your presentation.
4824 MS WOODWORTH: My name is Nancy Woodworth and I'm president of Robert Q's Travel and Robert Q's Airbus.
4825 I've been in both these businesses for 33 years. We operate retail travel agencies. We have 16 agencies in Southwestern Ontario and we also operate a ground transportation business to Toronto and Detroit airports from London as well as Woodstock.
4826 So I've had a lot of experience and in that 33 years I've been dealing in radio for the whole time, so I've had a lot of relationships in the radio field and good relationships with all of these people.
4827 But for us, we need to get into everybody's home and consequently doing business with everyone. In my experience it's always been the radio station presents how many homes they're getting into and tells you what it's going to cost to get into that home, which was fine and it worked for us.
4828 But when I ran into CHUM about five years ago their philosophy was something that was totally different and new to me and when they came to London their philosophy is how can we help you retain your business, build your business and get through some of the challenges ‑‑ and certainly since 9/11 we've had plenty. As really a small business you have so many challenges.
4829 And so they got us together in focus groups, in panels, and they gave us an opportunity to meet with motivational speakers. They came into our office and helped us motivate our people when they were really down over the things that happened.
4830 So to me ‑‑ and London is really just a big small town, so Woodstock with the same philosophy, if these people can help the small business people in Woodstock retain their presence and compete with the big box people of the world, that helps grow and keep that community the way I think the people like to have it, but you have to be able to be competitive.
4831 And I'm here because in 33 years no one except CHUM ever even presented me with the idea of doing that. So they've helped expose me to things that I think as a small businessperson I would never have been exposed to.
4832 So I just really support their philosophy and that's why I'm here today. Thank you.
4833 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
4834 Madam Secretary.
4835 THE SECRETARY: The next appearing intervener is the Canadian Red Cross Society.
4836 Would you please identify yourself and you have ten minutes for your presentation.
4837 MS. WOODCOCK: My name is Angie Woodcock and I'm the district branch manager for the London and Middlesex and St. Thomas and Elgin County Branches.
4838 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I thank you for this opportunity to speak on behalf of CHUM Limited.
4839 As I said, I name is Angie Woodcock and I'm the district branch manager for the Canadian Red Cross Society for London and Middlesex and St. Thomas Elgin County branches.
4840 Up until very recently I've been the acting manager for the Stratford, Owen Sound and more specifically the Woodstock branch, for which I am representing today.
4841 As you are no doubt aware, the Red Cross is an international not‑for‑profit volunteer based organization with a mission statement to mobilize the power of humanity around the world.
4842 The movement consists of 181 national societies, of which Canada is one.
4843 Here in Ontario we currently operate 60 branch sites and provide a wide range of services, such as disaster response, personal disaster assistance, first aid and water safety services, education and training, home support services for seniors and other vulnerable individuals.
4844 We have a respected program, which is our violence and abuse program for youth and adults and many, many diverse community‑based programs.
4845 Specifically in Woodstock we have a very significant transportation program that we provide transportation for vulnerable individuals, usually financially strapped, to medical appointments in Toronto, London and within the community.
4846 In order for the Red Cross to reach our vulnerable populations and seek the assistance of community stakeholders it is imperative for us to secure the support of local media.
4847 As a society, we rely heavily on public service announcements, which are provided as free advertising on our behalf. These community service announcements are critical to not only the Red Cross, but to most not‑for‑profit organizations whose limited funding is applied to direct program delivery.
4848 It acts as a crucial venue for us for volunteer recruitment, fund development and outreach to our vulnerable populations.
4849 I have only recently moved to Southern Ontario to assume my role as district branch manager and as a new player in the community I have been very fortunate to have been openly welcomed and supported by the media forum, in particular CHUM Limited.
4850 BOB FM, which is the local London radio station and the new PL have played an integral role in the success of both past and recent fundraising initiatives, our public safety service announcements, promoting our branch training and special events.
4851 Staff within this organization have gone over and above to link us with key players within their own organization and to maximize on public relations opportunities as well as provide me with linkages into the community.
4852 What has been more impressive, as a result of the recent events of December 26th, the tsunami, was the CHUM affiliated stations across the country and their unprecedented response to this devastating disaster.
4853 Through their efforts and largely due to their connectedness nationwide, as well ours, this organization raised an incredible 4.2 million dollars over the course of one week on behalf of the Canadian Red Cross.
4854 And I must impress that this was in the ‑‑ started out as a 24‑hour appeal and it was CHUM who decided, very compelled by the stories of victims and the work of the Red Cross, to continue this for an entire week.
4855 The media coverage and opportunity for the branch exposure was priceless. Our branches were provided with valuable opportunities, not only to appeal for this disaster, but they also provided us with an opportunity to talk about the local programs and services and the need for the support of the local branch and our contributions to our communities.
4856 Based out of London, certainly there was a great coverage for the local branch; however, highlights from the surrounding communities, including Woodstock, were regularly featured.
4857 Certainly you've heard of the story of the young girl on the internet selling a picture for $10,000. Both the PL and BOB FM did highlight those stories for us.
4858 Based on Red Cross and my personal experience, I believe that CHUM would be the ideal radio station in Woodstock. Their dedication to the community is outstanding, their staff, well, they are dedicated hometown folk.
4859 In Their corporate world of sales competition they have not forgotten one of the key ingredients to success and that is charity.
4860 You don't have to be the new girl in town to realize just how much they do in the name of community services.
4861 Daily they are interviewing, promoting and participating in local charity events and, given today's market, the not‑for‑profit organizations are a great majority of businesses in the communities across the country.
4862 We are seeking donor support through community service announcements, as paid advertisement is far too costly to our organizations and would virtually drain the financial resources that are needed for direct client service.
4863 What you must know is that our asks multiplied by the number of not‑for‑profit organization are not just once a year, but on average we probably ask for free PSA's probably once a month to every second month. And I must say they have accommodated.
4864 Certainly I've seen a shift over the number of years being involved with the Red Cross. The media is ‑‑ other media forms are coming to us and asking us to pay for advertising and in most cases it's not an option for us, so we are being limited to certain media forums because we don't have the ability to pay.
4865 In the spirit of giving, CHUM exemplifies the true spirit of community. They do care and they walk the talk, rather they talk our walk on the radio as often as they can to allow us to be there every day when help is needed in Woodstock, in London, in Ontario, in Canada and around the world. Thank you.
4866 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Woodcock.
4867 Commissioner Cram.
4868 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Ms Woodcock, welcome and thank you for coming.
4869 When you were in Woodstock what assistance did you and the Red Cross get from the broadcast media there?
4870 MS WOODCOCK: From what I understand ‑‑ and I've spoken with the staff because I was periodically all over the place ‑‑ there were some articles in the local newspaper.
4871 Certainly other than tsunami for the regular business that they do, the staff have indicated that there is not a lot of support. There's not a lot of community announcements on our training events, on our special events or fund‑raising. There seems to be this hole for Woodstock.
4872 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So nothing on the radio, PSA's or anything?
4873 MS WOODCOCK: Very, very, very little as compared to what we are able to get in London and our surrounding communities in Kitchener and the surrounding branches as well.
4874 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you very much.
4875 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Madam Secretary.
4876 THE SECRETARY: The next appearing intervener is Stephen Molnar.
4877 Mr. Molnar, you have ten minutes for your presentation.
4878 MR. MOLNAR: Thank you, Madam Secretary.
4879 Chairman Dalfen, Distinguished Commissioners, CRTC staff, thank you for the opportunity to make a presentation today in support of the application by Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited to convert its broadcasting signal from CKOT 1510 AM to 104.7 FM.
4880 I appreciate the prompt response from the Commission regarding my request for delegation status at these hearings and I acknowledge the transparent and open process that your agency to the citizens of Canada.
4881 My name is Stephen Molnar and it is my distinct honour and privilege to be the mayor for the Corporation of the Town of Tillsonburg.
4882 Tillsonburg is a vibrant community of 15,000 residents, a vital urban centre in a rural heartland of Southwestern Ontario.
4883 I am equally proud to be a councillor representing the nearly 100,000 citizens in the wider geographic region of Oxford County.
4884 Indeed, the community of influence that Tillsonburg's social and economic facilities support also reaches into Norfolk and Elgin Counties.
4885 Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited has a long and distinguished tradition spanning over 50 years in supporting the cultural fabric of my community and the greater Tri‑County region.
4886 Their commitment to local and regional programming has been evident for generations and is a legacy that should be identified and enhanced.
4887 This application identifies a commitment of excellence and a capacity to improve. This opportunity for service enhancement is a natural yet overdue evolution of the quality support, that TBCL has provided to the citizens of Oxford County and area and reinforces our county motto, "Growing stronger ... together".
4888 CKOT is a family‑owned operation that has adopted a greater service area and provided valuable news coverage in our region.
4889 The station is an integral part of the area's basic emergency management plan as facilitated within the mandate of the EMO, the Emergency Management Ontario.
4890 In fact, this radio station is the only broadcasting network identified as "critical infrastructure" within both the Tillsonburg and Oxford County basic emergency plans.
4891 Public service announcements receive prompt and efficient distribution, as evidenced recently with the outbreak of rubella in Oxford County.
4892 CKOT has been a regional leader in reliable and effective reporting of information related to this significant public health issue.
4893 The impact of their message is only impeded by the limitations inherent in a dawn‑to‑dusk style of operation. The opportunity to expand these valuable services would be both responsible and appropriate.
4894 CKOT has continued to demonstrate their commitment to Tillsonburg, Oxford County and the greater Tri‑County region.
4895 The ownership they have assumed for localized programming is a testament to the responsibilities as a quality provider of information, entertainment and vital public announcements to an ever‑expanding population base.
4896 The move to the proposed FM frequency would only serve to enhance these opportunities.
4897 Oxford County is a progressive region that is ultimately greater than the sum of its parts. We are blessed with eight local and diverse municipalities, each with special strengths and unique challenges, yet together we represent what is proportionally one of the fastest growing regions of Ontario.
4898 The opportunity to further enhance the quality of life for our residents through continued economic diversity is reflective of the foundation that has been supported over the last fifty years by organizations and community partners such as CKOT.
4899 So while I am proud to support the efforts of Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited, this application is not about the Town of Tillsonburg, nor is it about the Town of Ingersoll, the Township of Norwich or, indeed, even the City of Woodstock.
4900 This application is about the introduction of a new broadcasting signal, 104.7 FM, that will ultimately benefit the residents of Oxford County and the greater Tri‑County region.
4901 Borders and boundaries can sometimes be a dangerous thing. They may appear as innocent lines on a map, yet they can ultimately be obstrusive barriers to the natural symmetry required for regional development.
4902 Just as water knows no boundaries, so does the transmission of a radio signal know no boundaries. Its scope is one of inclusion, its circumference only limited by the power or strength of its source.
4903 I encourage the Commission to look beyond the boundaries of a localized approach to broadcasting and embrace the opportunity to enhance a service provider who has supported our region with responsible and effective programming for generations.
4904 Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited, as the Commission is aware, is a family‑owned and operated company. There is a responsible and accountable face to this organization.
4905 The Lamers family and the call sign CKOT have created a legacy in Tillsonburg and Oxford County that exceeds the parameters of the broadcasting industry.
4906 The owners, management and team members of TVCL are an integral part of the social fabric of our regional community. They are coaches, are volunteers and are community leaders. More than community leaders, this organization and their members have indeed become community builders.
4907 Ultimately the application under review is about protecting this legacy and providing a valuable community contributor the opportunity to further their commitment to our region through an enhanced programming model.
4908 Tillsonburg, along with other municipalities in the southern quadrant of Oxford County and the greater Tri‑County corridor have been significantly impacted by initiatives introduced within the Ontario Tobacco Strategy.
4909 The Minister of Agriculture and Food for the Province of Ontario stated on March 29th of this year while announcing a community investment program for our region that, indeed, public policy has negatively affected both the growers and the communities in the tobacco‑growing region.
4910 While the economy in Tillsonburg remains strong and diverse, the enhancement of a regional radio broadcasting system is integral to protect the growth opportunities of our entire area.
4911 Local ownership initiatives are paramount in any economic environment to provide a stable foundation for future growth. There is a certain responsibility and accountability that comes with local ownership.
4912 This same framework provides a level of security and continuity that the residents of Oxford County deserve.
4913 At a municipal council meeting for the Corporation of the Town of Tillsonburg dated May the 9th, 2005, the following resolution was introduced an supported unanimously. It was moved by Councillor Renaud and seconded by Councillor Patenaude.
"WHEREAS an application has been made by Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited to the CRTC to convert radio station CKOT Tillsonburg from the AM band to the FM band and;
WHEREAS the new station would operate on frequency 104.7 MHz with an average effective radiated power of 2,300 watts..."
"WHEREAS CKOT has for over 50 years supported the local and regional population with quality programming that has provided news information, entertainment and vital public announcements to the Tri‑county region and,
WHEREAS the opportunity to expand and enhance this quality level of service is important to our local residents and indeed to all residents of Oxford and the greater Tri‑County area;
BE IT [THEREFORE] RESOLVED THAT, the corporation of the Town of Tillsonburg supports the Application by Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited to convert CKOT AM 1510 to 104.7 FM, and that notification of this support ... be forwarded to the CRTC".
4914 A similar resolution garnered significant support at a subsequent meeting of Oxford County Council.
4915 In closing, I would like to once again recognize the efforts of the CRTC and thank this panel for the opportunity for me to speak to you today.
4916 I am proud to represent both the residents of the Town of Tillsonburg and the citizens of Oxford County; however, at the end of the day I am like the rest of you in this room and all others in our region. I am a consumer.
4917 As a consumer it is incumbent on me to make choices relative to potential purchases or to prioritize how I wish to spend my time.
4918 I look for quality, dependability, reliability and effectiveness.
4919 I have come to my conclusion that the Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited delivers unique and substantive programming that is favourable in all these aspects.
4920 The only greater impact that could be realized to the benefit of the citizens of Tillsonburg, Oxford County an the greater Tri‑County region is if the qualities referenced were enhanced by supporting the application for the frequency of 104.7.
4921 Once again, I would like to extend my thanks to the Commission for the opportunity to support such an impressive and important initiative and I would encourage your approval for the application from Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company Limited.
4922 Once again, I thank the Chair. I have copies of the presentation that I'm prepared to leave with the secretary and if there are any questions for myself I'd be more than welcome to answer those, sir.
4923 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Molnar.
4924 As we have a recorded transcript of the proceedings I don't think it's necessary to take your written submission, written copy of your submission.
4925 MR. MOLNAR: At your discretion, sir.
4926 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. But we do have some questions.
4927 MR. MOLNAR: Certainly.
4928 THE CHAIRPERSON: And I'll ask Commissioner Langford to begin.
4929 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you, Mayor Molnar for this.
4930 And it's clear. I want to begin by saying your message to us, we received loud and clear. It's both elegant and absolutely clear.
4931 But I would wonder if I could sort of ask you to look at it from a slightly different light, if you don't mind.
4932 You talked about ‑‑ I tried to get some of your quotations down and I think I'm pretty close.
4933 "Radio frequency knows no boundary. Its scope is one of conclusion."
4934 You then went on and talked about how ultimately this process is about protecting the legacy that's been built in Tillsonburg and that's not something that I would argue with, obviously.
4935 But perhaps if we looked at it from another light. The frequency may know no boundaries and it may have an inclusive quality once it reaches out, but it's got to start from somewhere and right now, of course, it's starting from Tillsonburg, from your town, because that's what's available. The so‑called local Woodstock station went to London sometime ago.
4936 Now, we're in a situation where we have a very, very scarce resource here which we have to somehow utilize to the benefit of everybody and somehow kind of make this inclusiveness that you spoke of work in the best way possible.
4937 I don't know if you were here yesterday, but we heard some various scenarios where efforts were being made to try to work with the scarce resources we have to not only find a solution for the AM flip in Tillsonburg, but as well offer a voice that starts ‑‑ also an inclusive voice, one would hope ‑‑ but one which starts from Woodstock.
4938 That would mean probably everybody putting a little bit of water in their wine, to use the old cliche. Nobody would get precisely perhaps what they wanted, because obviously if we give the resource just to Woodstock they've got the ability to market and sell ads and it's theirs alone. If we give it just to Tillsonburg they've got the ability to source the message from where they are and the sources of revenue come back to them alone.
4939 But if we can give two signals they're going to have to fight it out a little bit in the market, but Woodstock gets a source of an inclusive frequency and so does Tillsonburg.
4940 I wonder if I could ask you for a moment to sort of pretend that you're the mayor of Woodstock. And does it make sense to you ‑‑ sorry, for the long introduction, because the question is really quite short, but does it make sense to you now as the mayor of Woodstock that the source of the inclusive signal is, in a sense, almost as important as the signal without boundaries that has an inclusive quality once it's out there?
4941 MR. MOLNAR: A couple of qualifying comments. Intentions were to arrive certainly Monday and be a part of the proceedings, not really understanding when my opportunity would be available.
4942 I had quite, I believe appropriately, chose to represent the citizens of my town and our region had economic development opportunities that have been introduced by various ministries into the quadrant that I referenced earlier.
4943 It would be far presumptuous of me, with respect, sir, to speak either on behalf or to feel that I could represent the opinions of the mayor of Woodstock.
4944 But, to address your question, if indeed I was in a situation where I was representative of the office in a municipality similar in dealing with this situation, the comments about borders and ‑‑ you know, my personal exposure to the technicalities of the radio industry are very limited, but my understanding and passion for local initiative and locally‑and regionally‑enhanced opportunities is very powerful.
4945 If I was the mayor of Woodstock, and as I am the mayor of Tillsonburg, or if I was a representative from any other municipality in the County of Oxford, my passion again remains the same, that the ultimate end result is to satisfy the primary concerns of the available listening audience in an area for announcements, for news and for a modicum of quality entertainment value.
4946 But I do believe that when I ‑‑ I just ‑‑ a comment regarding the blackout of 2003, if I may, sir.
4947 I was actually in Niagara Falls across the street at the Fallsview Sheraton when that happened involved in emergency management, you know, positions in my town as a councillor and got a cell notification, made an early exit from this municipality and headed home to Tillsonburg on Highway 3 and followed the process of the regeneration of the grid, but ultimately about the emergency procedures that were being implemented in the Tillsonburg and area regarding signal outages and things of that nature.
4948 I know that recently when there was a bielection in the City of Woodstock, the only representation there from television media in Oxford County that broke that story was CKOT, Oxford County news.
4949 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: So is what you're telling me that the notion of source has become larger than any one town or is there ‑‑
4950 MR. MOLNAR: And if I'm failing to understand the nature of the term "source," I apologize, but if I'm understanding "source" as being something where something is originating from ‑‑
4951 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: That's it.
4952 MR. MOLNAR: ‑‑ my concerns would be ultimately that there's a respect and a provision given for the deliverance to the area as being recognized as needing and promoting that service on a regional level.
4953 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And if your region could actually somehow have two sources of inclusive regional radio messaging, would that be better than one? The reach seems ‑‑
4954 MR. MOLNAR: Without ‑‑ I mean, I would be prepared to offer further support for anything that ultimately enhances the opportunity across Oxford County, certainly, sir. Without having direct reference to part of the, you know, potential alternatives I think I would be commenting on something I'm not totally aware of, sir.
4955 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, thank you. And that's our difficult job, of course, is to look at the alternatives and see which work.
4956 But I very much appreciate your input on this. You're one of the people in the centre of this. Thank you very much.
4957 MR. MOLNAR: Thank you, sir.
4958 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram.
4959 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, for coming.
4960 You talked a fair bit about the Tri‑County council. Is that sort of a natural trading area, a natural sort of community of interest?
4961 MR. MOLNAR: Community of interest would be the ultimate, both from a socioeconomic and cultural area, that Tillsonburg is ultimately the epicenter of that impacts the regional demographic base of around 100,000 people.
4962 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And I've got my handy‑dandy map here. What are the three counties? Are they ‑‑
4963 MR. MOLNAR: Oxford.
4964 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Yes. Norfolk?
4965 MR. MOLNAR: Norfolk and Elgin. Norfolk to the southeast and Elgin to the southwest.
4966 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And that's approximately a hundred thousand?
4967 MR. MOLNAR: That perimeter of influence that we impact as far as ‑‑ we're a municipality of 15,000.
4968 Our infrastructure and the demands on our local municipality and the opportunities, quite naturally, are drawing from probably between 120,000 people as far as a regional commercial centre, a health and social agency network and the facilities that we have satellite provisions for through various Oxford County social providers.
4969 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Thank you very much.
4970 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Mayor.
4971 MR. MOLNAR: Once again, thank you, sir.
4972 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary.
4973 THE SECRETARY: Mr. Chairman, the last appearing intervention will be presented by George Fox and Terry Sumsion.
4974 Gentlemen, you have ten minutes for this presentation.
4975 MR. FOX: Good morning my name is George Fox.
‑‑‑ Musical presentation / Présentation musicale
4976 MR. FOX: Thank you for your indulgence there.
‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements
4977 MR. FOX: I feel like I'm on Canadian Idol here just momentarily.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
4978 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I'm not sure the translators got all of that, but we did.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
4979 MR. FOX: It's available on CD. Yes, thank you for your indulgence.
4980 Those are song lyrics from my latest CD entitled "Canadian" and in singing to you these lyrics what I wanted to emphasize are the Canadian references and to let you know that CKOT does recognize that giving airtime to these types of songs is important.
4981 Not all of my music is quite that patriotic, I'm not Stompin' George Fox, but I did want to point out that Canadian cultural references, place names, for example contained in a song that was in CKOT's rotation last year:
"From Prince George all the way to St. John's,
I must have played them all.
The mighty Skydome in Toronto
The old forum way down in Montreal."
4982 There are a number of stations that did reject this song of mine out of hand citing the lyric as the main reason they felt it would not appeal to their audience, i.e., too Canadian.
4983 But, in fact, there is recognition at CKOT that listeners are happy to hear these types of place names or cultural references they can identify with.
4984 Just to back up a little, I'm a artist who ‑‑ I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. I'll give you few details.
4985 I've achieved my audience in Canada through 15 years of touring, television and airtime on country music radio. With Warner Music Canada I achieved gold status on five of my eight releases and now I'm making records independently.
4986 I employ management and publicist personnel, tour with four musicians and I'll perform forty or more shows this year, ranging the from the International Ploughing Match in Listowel, Ontario, to a performance with the Edmonton Symphony later this fall.
4987 During the course of my career I've been involved with nearly all the stations that play country music in this country ‑‑ and quite a few that used to. I've charted 20 or more top ten songs and I would say that being on the roster of a major label is almost a prerequisite to getting added to some of the very short play lists on the major market stations.
4988 At this stage I have an appreciation for any station that is willing to add a song on the merits of the song and the artist who is, I hope, in my case deliver a familiar voice and a song that their listeners can identify with.
4989 My experience with CKOT has been one which provided a lot of the support, not only with airtime for my music, but also for promotions of concerts in their listening area. Case in point, last fall we did a fund‑raising tour with 4H Ontario and a show in Woodstock was heavily promoted by CKOT, who also provided and on‑air personality to introduce the show.
4990 To me this shows a genuine commitment to community and, from my point of view, a real help in delivering what I have to offer to the fans.
4991 I'd just like to add that the hope of having a song played on air is really what drives an artist and what he or she keeps in the back of their mind, beginning right from the conception of the song.
4992 Just like a novelist that would focus perhaps on an imaginary reader as they create their story and dialogue, music is created, at least I create it, with the hopes that I will connect with that imaginary someone on their favourite country radio station, perhaps I'll be heard singing as they make breakfast in the kitchen, as they sit on the tractor cab working the fields or as they push around the baby buggy through the shopping mall.
4993 And making the mark in these ways is really the joy of being a singer and song writer.
4994 CKOT is a station that keeps the hope alive for that airplay, not also for me, but also for many aspiring artists that are coming along to fill the shoes of the likes of Terry and I.
4995 So in closing, again, I express my confidence in CKOT and their will and ability to follow through with Canadian talent and its development.
4996 I would urge you to support their application. Thank you very much.
4997 MR. SUMSION: My name is Terry Sumsion. I'm from Harley, Ontario, about halfway between Woodstock an Brantford.
4998 I've been in the music business for 35 years. George and I met years and years ago in Alberta while we were all travelling on the road and doing what we have been out there doing for many years.
4999 I've won many awards and I ‑‑ I don't want to boast on that, because that's something I've never tried to do, is brag about awards and things like that.
5000 We've always been out playing our music from our hearts and doing what we do, trying to build a fan base and take our music to people that would not ordinarily be able to hear it.
5001 Radio is a big, big part of that. It's our chance to ‑‑ like George says, when you start building a song and you put it together and you send it out to a radio station, that's our hearts we're sending out to that radio station and if we don't get played in one fashion or another, it's a lot of hard work and a lot of blood, sweat and tears down the drain for a lot of people that put everything they had into making that record.
5002 I was just talking with some of the folks this morning from CKOT and I said that one of the new tunes that we've written ‑‑ that I've written just over the last little while, the last line of the second verse in the song says ‑‑ it's about a farmer selling his farm and the auctioneer doing what he does and pick‑up trucks lined up as far as the eye can see so people can come in there and look at all this guy's stuff and not be under the pressure of their ‑‑ they're not under the pressure of buying the thing, he's under the pressure of selling. The last line of the song is, "He sat and watched all his dreams go down the lane."
5003 That's happening way too often and we're afraid for small great radio stations like CKOT that that same thing is going to happen to them and when they go by the wayside so do artist like George and I, because we've put our heart in this business.
5004 I've been in this for 35 years. I've travelled all over the world and played my music to people that really cared.
5005 I still sell out concerts under the umbrella of all the radio stations that are involved here today and we can't get our music played for the most part on the bulk of these stations.
5006 CKOT, they're announcers understand country music. There was reference yesterday about why can't people switch if there was an emergency, why can't they switch to 101 and get the information they're looking for rather than the AM signal.
5007 There's a reason for that. Because country music fans believe in their heart that they love country music. I have fans that have followed me for over thirty years and they're still out there and they still come to the concerts and they ‑‑ you know, it just goes on and on because of their love for real country music and that's why they won't change channels. If they find something that they feel comfortable with they stay there. And they believe in the radio station, they believe in the announcers and I ‑‑ in my heart I believe that CKOT has some great announcers that have been in this business for a long time and they understand not only the music, they know the players that are involved and the instrumentals that create this music in the studios.
5008 And I just believe that they're not ‑‑ they're not operating with big budgets and, you know, big explosions of grandeur all over the place. These people work with their hearts and that's how we ‑‑ we deal with the music from that standpoint.
5009 And they will allow us to walk in there at any time of the day and sit down and be believed in because we are writers, singers, songwriters and they will give the music a chance. If it doesn't fit their format, that's fine, but at least it gets a chance to be heard.
5010 If The Beatles had never been heard, if Garth Brooks had never been heard, if whoever you perceive in the business ‑‑ Anne Murray has a new album out there right now that can't get played because she's an older artist and that's not right. We're just old; we're not dead yet, you know, and we believe in what we do.
5011 But if The Beatles and all these other people had never had a chance, if somebody had never taken a chance on them they would have never got heard and nobody in this room would have ever known who they were because of that fact.
5012 And I believe that CKOT, they've been in this business, it feels comfortable for us to walk into that station any time, you can phone there. I could hand you my cell phone right now and you call the station and I guarantee you the phone won't ring more than once and somebody's going to answer.
5013 And I've sat in there and listened to John Lamers answered the phone himself and solve somebody's small, trivial problem maybe at that point, or maybe it's a big problem, but the phone never rang more than once. And you can't do that in most of the radio stations that are represented here today, I'm afraid and you can't feel comfortable.
5014 I'm doing this from my heart and I'm a pretty emotional guy and that's where artists come from, but I just want you to guys to believe in CKOT because they are a great radio station and they're a real radio station. Thank you.
5015 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Fox, Mr. Sumsion.
5016 Commissioner Langford has a question.
5017 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Mr. Sumsion,I do have a question for you.
5018 You were talking emotionally, as you say, but very clearly about the way the listeners believe in these stations.
5019 MR. SUMSION: Yes.
5020 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And that they don't necessarily switch somewhere else to get their information. They're believers.
5021 MR. SUMSION: Yes.
5022 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Is there any connection as well with AM over FM. Will the switch to AM ‑‑ from AM to FM leave anybody feeling disenfranchised?
5023 MR. SUMSION: I don't think so. I think they'll go where they feel comfortable. They're getting the music that they want to hear, the mix they want to hear.
5024 I think that's the same with any radio station, you know, whether it's rock or easy listening or whatever, you know, I don't think the AM and the FM has any bearing there really. I think it's ‑‑ you know, the AM has been a strong signal, but a lot of the reason for that is the music that they play, the mix, you can't set your watch by what CKOT plays every day.
5025 There's not one guy telling all these people what to say and when to say it and what to play.
5026 The programmers on that station and the deejays themselves, they create what they do every day and a lot of it is all from their heart and that ‑‑ to answer your question, I don't think there's any bearing on that. I think it's just good radio and it's real radio.
5027 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much. That's my question.
5028 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Vice‑Chair French.
5029 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Thank you. Don't go, gents, I've got a question, if you don't mind.
5030 It's a question for my education and the education of my fellow Commissioners.
5031 You've both referred to programming decisions by radio stations and Mr. Fox said, in effect, that one of his recordings was rejected for airplay because it was too Canadian or it wasn't to the taste of a programmer.
5032 I'm interested in knowing, in the absence of a major label deal, you personally, as it were, sell your product to individual stations across the country, do you? How does that work and what are the pros and cons and does it have consequences for the kinds of decisions we make?
5033 Because clearly you do understand that CRTC considers itself to have been part of an emphasis on Canadian content.
5034 MR. SUMSION: Yes.
5035 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Which has been important to Canadian artists.
5036 MR. SUMSION: Yes.
5037 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: And I think that in your own field and other fields we have specific examples that we can refer to, yourselves among them.
5038 Just interested in knowing, how does it work now in 2005 for one or both of you in terms of your new recordings and trying to get them airplay.
5039 MR. SUMSION: George?
5040 MR. FOX: Yes. Thank you. Well, as I mentioned, I was with ‑‑ well, I was with a major label for a number of years and what they did to assist me in getting my music out to radio was have a tracker, what is called a tracker, which would phone ‑‑ typically phone all the stations or a good portions of the stations on a weekly basis to encourage them to play the George Fox single and to put it progressively into heavier rotation as the life of the single hopefully went on.
5041 So with not having a major label at this point, an independent artist would employ a tracker if he was ‑‑ I don't think there's many artists that are actually phoning the stations directly.
5042 But in the case of the song that I cite as an example I did that and the song, it did ‑‑ I believe the term was lost "in the fifties" on the chart, where it didn't really take off, but I did get some strong support from some of the secondary markets, but not in the ‑‑ as I mentioned, the major markets of, you know, typically the markets out west, Calgary, Edmonton type of FM stations, didn't get on it, because they really have a short play list, as I mentioned.
5043 Typically five, maybe six Canadian acts will be in their rotation at any given time, so it's awfully hard when you're competing with a major label and all their ‑‑ the well‑oiled machinery, I guess.
5044 MR. SUMSION: If I may. I was in conversation with a tracker on the way down here yesterday on the cell phone because I'm trying to do that with the latest single that we've had played on CKOT and a few other smaller stations and the question that was posed to me was am I looking for numbers or am I looking for airplay?
5045 And basically, like George says, the numbers he mentioned yesterday was seven artists, seven Canadian artists that are added. And other than that we have no chance of ‑‑ you know, that's our odds against getting our record played.
5046 And she asked me the question do I want numbers or do I want airplay. I said all I'm asking for is airplay because that's our lifeblood. That ‑‑ if we get some airplay, that turns into personal jobs that we can go out and play our music and that gives us the opportunity to sell our product off stage live and that's where our dollar factor comes from.
5047 We don't have that chance if we can't have any airplay. If it doesn't ‑‑ I mean we're both being played here and there and all over a very minimal amount, but it's not enough to really go out an project ‑‑ in the old days I had records on the radio that were played as much as any of the major acts coming out of Nashville and we were doing tremendous numbers a month in revenue because of that.
5048 The airplay from coast to coast ‑‑ I've been 18 times from coast to coast over the length of what I've done and the reason for that was the airplay.
5049 I remember when we released our second album I did 250 interviews, radio interviews, on the phone.
5050 We had one of the first ‑‑ and I'm dating myself a little bit ‑‑ but one of the first hard‑wired cell phones, a Motorola cell phone, in my tour bus and because that allowed us to touch more radio stations as we went across the country, we could make those calls. And I think at that point it was like four bucks a minute talk on that cell phone.
5051 But it was our access to the people, the radio was our access to the people and, I mean, we would ‑‑ we had interviews set up all the way across the country with every major radio station that was playing country music and I'm talking strictly from a country standpoint because that's what I do, but we ‑‑ that was the life and the breath of our business, was the airplay. And we don't have that opportunities now.
5052 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: So the distinction between numbers and airplay is, just to be sure I understand it, numbers means ‑‑
5053 MR. SUMSION: Charting.
5054 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: ‑‑ the audience size in a chart in a major market.
5055 MR. SUMSION: Yes.
5056 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: And airplay means the minutes you get, the opportunity you get on any station to try to connect with those listeners.
5057 MR. SUMSION: For people to hear our music.
5058 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: So let me just rehearse that and make sure I completely understand.
5059 You're saying that you appreciate the fact that there are programmers who are not part of a corporate operation with a centrally dictated format and place rotation strategy.
5060 MR. SUMSION: Yes.
5061 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: You like the fact that there's some diversity in the marketplace and you can go and hope that you get an opportunity in one or two of these ‑‑ probably smaller markets ‑‑
5062 MR. SUMSION: Yes.
5063 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: ‑‑ but people will like it and it will be infectious and it will grow and you'll have the opportunity to expand your audience.
5064 MR. SUMSION: Absolutely.
5065 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: And if, on the other hand, there were a small number of centrally programmed corporate entities that controlled all the radio stations you would feel that the opportunity of any beginning artist or less immediately popular audience at any one time would always be difficult to penetrate that.
5066 MR. SUMSION: Yes, you know, we've been told by radio stations that they only play Top 40, but you don't get to the Top 40 if you don't get it in the Top 100.
5067 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: It's the chicken and egg problem.
5068 MR. SUMSION: Yes.
5069 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: You have to have a job to get experience and you have to have experience to get a job.
5070 MR. SUMSION: That's exactly right. But, you know, I just feel, like I say, if The Beatles had never been heard we'd all be in trouble, you know.
5071 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: No, obviously these industries do need new talent and they eventually find them.
5072 MR. SUMSION: Absolutely, yeah.
5073 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: But your sense is that a more diverse musical landscape is always more interesting for everybody because there's more choice.
5074 MR. SUMSION: It is, yes.
5075 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Yes. And you would defend the position you're defending here, for example, by saying CKOT has been part of that diversity that you treasure and appreciate.
5076 MR. SUMSION: Yes, absolutely.
5077 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Just a little note. We don't regulate cell phone prices.
5078 MR. SUMSION: Okay.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
5079 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Don't blame us for the four bucks.
5080 MR. SUMSION: Thank you.
5081 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Thanks very much.
5082 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks very much. Madam Secretary.
5083 THE SECRETARY: This completes Phase III, Mr. Chairman.
5084 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right. We'll break for fifteen minutes an resume with Phase IV.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1130 / Suspension à 1130
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1147 / Reprise à 1147
5085 THE CHAIRPERSON: Order, please. À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.
5086 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will now proceed to Phase IV in which applicants can reply to all interventions submitted on their application. Applicants appear in reverse order.
5087 We would then ask Tillsonburg Broadcasting to respond to all interventions. You have ten minutes to respond. Go ahead.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
5088 MR. CRAIG: We'll be fairly short with this. As you can see, John is not sitting here with me. It's really not in the nature of Tillsonburg Broadcasting and the people who are involved there to rebut. That's such a word, to rebut. However, there are a few things that we just want to make note of and to use the word rebut, do a rebuttal on.
5089 In terms of the third parties that were here today, there were a few things that were said that had a couple of people off their chair at the back during those interventions. And also I want to address the best use of the frequency which is essentially what interventions are all about.
5090 First of all, I know the woman from the Red Cross is new to the area, but we have about three dozen qualified, non‑letter written interventions from various parties on record with you, and one of them was from the Red Cross. And there was no acknowledgment, and perhaps she doesn't know that we do use Red Cross PSA's, alerts, announcements, et cetera, et cetera, on a regular ongoing basis free of charge. We don't charge for that.
5091 And we understand that as a not for profit they don't have the budget to be able to afford. So we want to make sure that we correct that and hopefully she understands that.
5092 Our friend from the police services ‑‑ how soon we forget. Crime Stoppers. We use all of the Crime Stoppers stuff, free of charge. We are constantly, almost on a daily basis, in receipt of news releases, and we use them in our CKOT newsroom all the time. And that certainly ‑‑ very surprisingly ‑‑ Jerry Daniel was just jumping off his chair on that one because there is a close relationship with the police services, with both of our radio stations, CKOT AM and Easy 101.
5093 We had an advertiser up who advertises on our stations and somehow has forgotten that. And relatives of theirs have advertised on our stations.
5094 But I'm going to make this very, very short. The crux of the interventions, it all comes back to the underlying theme of the best use of the frequency. And the best use, in our opinion, of the 104.7 frequency is for 104.7 to be licensed to TVCL to flip and fix CKOT 1510. It's the closest possible scenario to replicate the appropriate portion of our existing coverage. Best use of the frequency.
5095 As we explained, 107.3 is not the best use of that frequency for us for a number of reasons, which I think we've clearly explained. 94.3, if you wish to license an applicant for the Woodstock market, is the best possible frequency to satisfy the stated motives of local service with more than adequate coverage for that market and you wouldn't have to worry about COL's in that case.
5096 Last night we talked about this. This was pure conversation in the room last night, and John all of a sudden said ‑‑ John Lamers said it's quite simple. You know, it was almost frustration. This is so simple and in the process he said we'd be very happy to work with Faith and Hope in Woodstock and in Kitchener Waterloo, the Christian stations. They have unprotected licenses and we'll help them find other frequencies if, in fact, 94.3 were to go to one of the other applicants.
5097 It all works so simply, it's a creative solution, the best use of the frequency budda boom, budda bing, it's a beautiful thing. Thank you very much.
5098 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Vice Chair French has some questions.
5099 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Mr. Craig, I understand that you don't like to rebut, and I would ask you to accept that the premise of my question is not based on what we heard immediately preceding your appearance ‑‑ reappearance, but, rather, the accumulated conclusions or impressions of the day and a little more of hearing on this issue.
5100 You have repeatedly argued to this Commission that 104.7's allocation to anyone but yourselves would be a financially crippling blow. Is that a fair characterization of what you have said to us?
5101 MR. CRAIG: I would say that's a very fair characterization. And I would expand on that and say competition is competition and fair competition and level playing field in the marketplace is not something that we abhor by any means. But anyone who is licensed really for whatever frequency is certainly going to impact on our financial picture.
5102 And for a small market broadcaster to deal with aggressive sales by another entity in its ‑‑ right in its home area is something which will definitely be a very critical blow to us and something that we're ‑‑ is going to be difficult to deal with.
5103 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: So the Woodstock market is your home area?
5104 MR. CRAIG: We contend that we have serve that market with information, et cetera, and there is no reason ‑‑ for instance, we do put a three millivolt directly over both Ingersoll and Woodstock with one of our ‑‑ with our FM license, our existing FM license. There is no reason why we couldn't even broadcast from there, but we, of course, broadcast from Tillsonburg.
5105 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Well, I guess I have to say to you, Mr. Craig, how can you have allowed the City of Woodstock to come before us repeatedly to tell us that you are not serving them and at the same time claim that it's your home area?
5106 MR. CRAIG: We essentially ‑‑ how can I put this? The City of Woodstock, they want a radio station operating out of Woodstock, and to that end they are going to repeatedly say they do not have a radio station in Woodstock which is providing for their local needs from a local source, from that local Woodstock source.
5107 And in saying that, they obviously are not going to acknowledge the fact that we have a working newsroom with nine full and part‑timers plus all kinds of stringers who do provide that information. We can't force them to listen to us, listeners up there to listen to us, we can't force, so they know what information is. But unless they're listening to us perhaps they don't know all of what we do for Woodstock.
5108 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: They do listen to you. You've got eleven per cent of the market. But they're still not satisfied with your performance. How do you explain that?
5109 MR. CRAIG: That's eleven per cent of the market. That means that there's another 89 per cent that is not. So ‑‑
5110 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: And it's ‑‑ excuse me.
5111 MR. CRAIG: ‑‑ do we have a good cross section of people? We have interventions, written interventions from ‑‑ we had about three dozen of them, a number of them from Woodstock and from Ingersoll saying what a good job we do, what we're providing, et cetera.
5112 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: No, Mr. Craig, interventions are interesting and important and we take them very seriously. But this is beyond interventions.
5113 MR. CRAIG: Um‑hum.
5114 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: You have found yourself a situation where you are claiming Woodstock is your home market, where you, in fact, have an eleven share, which is the largest single share in the market, and there is still from the mayor and the council down, a unanimous view in Woodstock that you are not serving them effectively and they don't say CKOT is not serving us or Easy FM is not serving us, they say we have no service.
5115 Now, I wouldn't be raising this with you if you haven't consistently, repeatedly asked the Commission to protect you from anyone else coming into that marketplace.
5116 It is impossible for the Commission to simultaneously believe that you deserve that protection and that Woodstock has no right to have a local station. Now, you've told me that the Woodstock position, let's characterize it as a somewhat parochial view, not unrepresented in Tillsonburg either or any other station ‑‑ any other town that comes before us, they would like to have this local station. But presumably this is because of what comes over the radio and not what they see when they drive down the main street.
5117 Once again, the question is how can your group simultaneously ask us to regard you as the essential incumbents doing a good job for Woodstock and, therefore, deserving of our indulgence and protection, and at the same time claim that any other signal there would be completely and grossly unfair to the situation you occupy?
5118 MR. CRAIG: First of all, Woodstock is part of the Oxford Market, okay, its market as a whole, number one. Number 2, I would contend, and I think we all from Tillsonburg Broadcasting would contend and most people if they really take a look at the vested interest that the mayor of Woodstock, for instance, would have in having a broadcast outlet centred right in that market, we all contend that we do, in fact ‑‑ we do, in fact, serve to the best of our ability those people who listen to us from Woodstock, number one.
5119 And the other thing is, we were at the Woodstock council meeting back about three weeks ago ‑‑ no, I'm sorry, it was the Oxford County council meeting back about three weeks ago and we had a mixed reaction from the councillors, the two Woodstock, Oxford County councillors, of course, were not in favour of us.
5120 We had very good support from the immediate surrounding area of Woodstock in all of this and that is part of the Woodstock market. Again, I have to say we contend we do a good job for our listeners in Woodstock. Those who don't listen to us don't know the good job that we do. I don't know ‑‑ I can't answer your question any better than that and I'm very sorry.
5121 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Thank you very much.
5122 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry, Commissioner Cram.
5123 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Mr. Craig ‑‑ and I'm looking at coverage maps and, you know, I didn't get involved in coverage maps until I got this job. And I'm looking at your coverage on 104.7, full coverage, and this is in your presentation yesterday, your initial presentation.
5124 MR. CRAIG: Um‑hum.
5125 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I've got it straight that there's 310,000 people in that area?
5126 MR. CRAIG: No, in the area of 104.7 that we are applying to there's actually 303,000. We corrected that last night through some of the software, but it's 303,000 in the 104.7 contour.
5127 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Now, that includes tri‑county?
5128 MR. CRAIG: Yes, that includes the Oxford, Elgin, Norfolk tri‑county area that we were licensed to serve, and primarily that's what it does include.
5129 COMMISSIONER CRAM: It does get you into London?
5130 MR. CRAIG: It does get us into the very east end of London on the fringe of that full coverage.
5131 COMMISSIONER CRAM: So that's ‑‑ I mean, have you ever been able to take advantage of the London market before?
5132 MR. CRAIG: With our AM station, no. We will sell in the London market for Easy 101, and we get some peripheral advertising from the sales efforts for Easy 101 that come onto the AM side, but it's marginal the amount of dollars that we get out of London which would be purely attributed to the AM station as it exists and even though it does, as it exists, I get it in the west end of London.
5133 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And 107 ‑‑ yes, 107, based on your engineer's calculations, there's 165,0000. That would still include the whole tri‑country area?
5134 MR. CRAIG: That would include the tri‑county area, most of the tri‑county area.
5135 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Which is the ‑‑ you believe is really your central area.
5136 MR. CRAIG: Our primary trading area is tri‑county, over to St. Thomas. St. Thomas, which does not have a local radio station any more always has been a source of revenues for us.
5137 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Okay. So St. Thomas is important to you also. Does this 107.3 go to St. Thomas?
5138 MR. CRAIG: I don't have the map in front of me, but I don't think it quite gets over that far.
5139 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And 94.3, that also covers the tri‑county.
5140 MR. CRAIG: It covers ‑‑
5141 COMMISSIONER CRAM: At least, based on your optimal use.
5142 MR. CRAIG: It would cover much less of the tri‑country than 104.7, and from a population standpoint I think you see the figures there, it does certainly pull in what Jim was able to at the very late hour last night figure out for us. It does, in fact, cover off about half of the population that we would have with 104.7.
5143 And, of course, that's the other important part of all of this is from a sales standpoint, people tend to buy what they can hear and the more that you pull back the signal, the less of those people who we have had traditional sales proceeds from within that larger area that we have covered even daytime only, they're not going to be able to hear us. It's going to be very difficult for them to buy us in their own mind philosophically.
5144 COMMISSIONER CRAM: But it is a fact of life that when you go from AM to FM, that you are going to ‑‑ it's going to be a smaller signal.
5145 MR. CRAIG: Absolutely. We acknowledge that and, you know, we say we'll take that sacrifice. In actual fact, and let's be honest here, as you get to the edge of the existing ‑‑ yes, there are 1.4 million people that live within that existing full coverage of the AM daytime only, okay, but people in Hamilton do not buy ‑‑ we cover off, we get into Hamilton. People in Kitchener‑Waterloo do not buy our AM station and so on.
5146 So we recognize that. We recognize that 1.4 million that, yes, are factually inside are actually not part of our primary trading sales and listening audience area. It just isn't. Those are the facts of life.
5147 COMMISSIONER CRAM: And your primary sales area is really tri‑county, maybe moving into St. Thomas.
5148 MR. CRAIG: With some St. Thomas ‑‑ well, that's Elgin anyway. St. Thomas is in Elgin county. Maybe a little bit over into Brant. Occasionally we get some sales over into the western fringes of Waterloo Country, western Waterloo County and the eastern sides of Middlesex County. Even Stratford and that's in Perth County.
5149 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: How much of your revenues would come from tri‑county, including St. Thomas?
5150 MR. CRAIG: Well, right now Woodstock, Ingersoll and surrounding area account for about 25 per cent. As a guesstimate, and I don't have the figures in front of me, but I would say that probably if you take the tri‑counties, well ‑‑ the majority of our revenues come from the tri‑counties, from Elgin, Oxford and Middlesex.
5151 Anything that pulls us in obviously is going to affect because you don't buy what you can't hear, number one, and number two, with added competition that's going to eat in. Okay. Fine. So then we have to compete, if that's the case then we compete.
5152 COMMISSIONER CRAM: On the other hand, you're on for 24 hours as opposed to whenever.
5153 MR. CRAIG: Exactly, exactly. That's the most important factor here to us.
5154 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you, sir.
5155 MR. CRAIG: Yes, thank you.
5156 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr. Craig. Madam Secretary.
5157 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We will then ask Sound of Faith Broadcasting to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their applications. Dr. Reid, you have ten minutes for your presentation.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
5158 DR. REID: Thank you. I've given the Commissioner some written material based on the questions that they asked and I was unable to answer. Can I read those into the record? Okay.
5159 For Mr. Langford then, the breakdown of our income distribution is, donations twelve per cent, memberships two per cent, advertising 20 per cent, ministries eleven per cent, sponsorship of designated programs, 27 per cent, and special events, which is basically concerts, 28 per cent. Those are the figures for 2004.
5160 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Can we get information about that?
5161 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead.
5162 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Dr. Reid, do you mind? Are you still on finances now or are you going to something else?
5163 DR. REID: Going to something else.
5164 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Could we talk about that just for one second.
5165 DR. REID: Sure.
5166 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: I understand what ministries is. Sponsorship of ‑‑ what was it, sponsorship ‑‑
5167 DR. REID: Designated programs.
5168 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: What is that?
5169 DR. REID: In other words, those programs like Focus on the Family, we go out and get local sponsors. That's basically an advertisement. instead of being an advertisement, they just donate $20 a month to sponsor that.
5170 COMMISSIONER FRENCH: Thank you, doctor.
5171 DR. REID: Okay. And to the Commissioner, Barbara Cram, yesterday you asked us two questions concerning our present conditions of license for 94.3.
5172 Our condition was to provide 124 hours per week of local programming. On our present schedule we utilize 20 hours of programming not locally produced. We are airing 148 hours of a possible 168 hours of locally produced programming.
5173 On the balance issue we will be featuring a ‑‑ we had a conference call last night is what we did with our board, and we will be featuring a daily one hour program from one p.m. to two p.m. by Dennis Praeger.
5174 We had investigated this for ‑‑ sometime ago. This is a Jewish program from Los Angeles. We would have preferred to air a Canadian program, but this program should fulfil our obligation to one hour of balanced programming five days per week and the program can start almost immediately.
5175 We will be sponsoring a Christian music talent contest in the fall of 2005. The contest should fulfil our final condition for licensing. And I hope this addresses your concerns.
5176 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Langford.
5177 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Dr. Reid, before you invest a lot of money buying this Jewish programming from the States ‑‑
5178 DR. REID: We don't invest any money, sir.
5179 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You just might want to have a conversation with our staff about what qualifies as balanced programming just to make sure. Some programming does, some programming doesn't, and we would hate to see you respond quickly and then put yourself in a position where you still might not be meeting it.
5180 I make no judgment on the program you're buying, but I can tell you and I'm giving you just some free advice, so maybe that's all it's worth, but you just might want to, when this is all finished, make a phone call, pick up a card from the secretary about who would be appropriate to call, have a discussion with them, make sure.
5181 Because there are all kinds of shades of grey when it comes to this subject. Just a friendly word of advice.
5182 DR. REID: Yes, there are, and it's a very difficult issue to face realistically and come up with a good answer.
5183 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But we have highly experienced staff who will help you through this.
5184 DR. REID: I would be glad to do that, and I appreciate your comments.
5185 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner Cram.
5186 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Can I suggest you will do that on both issues?
5187 DR. REID: Okay. Now, to continue, then, this Commission is faced with a dilemma and I think that our station present the answer to the dilemma. You have to designate 104.7 and give it to someone. And what you'd like to do is have a station in Woodstock that represents Woodstock and Oxford County.
5188 We have 94.3 at the moment, but this whole process for me started as a impetus from our listeners and from our staff saying we need more power. Not only do we need more power, but we need a protected frequency. After I finished talking yesterday, it wasn't five or ten minutes and Mr. Langford was suggesting, well, why doesn't station so on get the 94.3 frequency as though we didn't exist. So that's a real problem for us.
5189 We have to somehow get to the point where our frequency is protected, and how exactly we're going to do that I don't know. But we've looked at 94.3 considerably.
5190 Our sister station in Kitchener has that same frequency, so we could easily draw a line in the sand and say they're going to apply for a 250 watt frequency or power increase to that level and to the west of us, 94.3 is the Chatham station and that's now owned by the Blackburns. It's a fairly recent acquisition.
5191 Up until now that station has only talked about events in Chatham. Now, maybe when the Blackburns own it they will change their attitude, but I think that we could easily expand 94.3 to meet our needs as a Woodstock based station that addresses all the needs of the people and acts as an emergency service venue and the 94.3 frequency would probably meet our needs perfectly well and we would be the Woodstock station that the mayor is looking for.
5192 Now, there' another whole issue and our two artists here presented it; namely, they're saying we want country and western material on the air and there's a whole host of contemporary Christian music, just the same as those two people who want a voice on the air and they're not being heard. And as long as we stay with low power and we have no protection, then those artists don't get a voice. And we plead with you on their behalf to give us a voice.
5193 I think that's all I have to say.
5194 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you very much. Madam Secretary.
5195 THE SECRETARY: I would then ask Newcap to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their application. You have ten minutes.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
5196 MR. MAHEU: Thank you very much. Good morning, Mr. Chair, Commissioners. I won't take up a whole lot of time this morning, but to re‑introduce myself, I'm Mark Maheu from Newcap Radio. I wanted to really touch on a couple of points which will just take a couple of minutes.
5197 Based on listening to the other applications yesterday and the supporting interventions for service in Woodstock. At Newcap we're listening and what we see or how we hear it really boils down to two concerns that are being addressed at this hearing as relates to Woodstock.
5198 The first concern is that is there the opportunity, the need, the want in the community of Woodstock for a truly local radio service, regardless of who provides it. It seems fairly clear through the interventions and all the applications that there's certainly a need and a want for local service in Woodstock.
5199 The second issue seems to be with Tillsonburg Broadcasting, their want to extend their service into the evening, which they cannot do now on CKOT AM by virtue of the fact that it's a day‑timer. It goes back a long way, a grandfathered license that covers a large area at a time that was different than the circumstances we find ourselves in today.
5200 Nevertheless, we need, I think, to be respectful of what they have now and try to find a way that everybody wins here. And in conversations with my colleagues last night, we were thinking about how could we come up with a potential solution and I think, as Commissioner Langford said, it might be a little bit of water in the wine so to speak, for everybody, but where the people of Woodstock get a local service, Tillsonburg has the opportunity to extend their coverage beyond the daytime on CKOT, and Sound of Faith Broadcasting remains on the air and continues to do the good work in the market that they do.
5201 We were thinking about how could we potentially come up with a solution, and I'd like to get to that in just a moment. In terms of Tillsonburg Broadcasting, making the statement that they would suffer irreparable financial harm if another license was granted on 104.7 to a broadcaster serving Woodstock, I think that is a claim that would be subject to some debate.
5202 I think, on the one hand, the radio station and the Lamers family should be commended doing of doing an excellent job of almost, quote, unquote, standing in and providing some service to Woodstock and Oxford County in light of the fact that over the past few years there has not been a radio station there. For that I think they deserve some degree of credit.
5203 I think they've certainly enjoyed the financial upside that went with it, but regardless of that, it was almost on a fill‑in or temporary basis, and when a call came for a new broadcasting license to serve Woodstock, Tillsonburg Broadcasting had the same opportunity as every other broadcaster or every other citizen in Canada to apply for a license to specifically serve the Woodstock area, as a number of applicants have. They chose to try to find a way to convert CKOT AM, which is, I think, a worthy endeavour.
5204 Getting back to the premise of how can we find a way potentially where everybody gives a little bit, but the real beneficiaries are the people of Woodstock and Oxford Country and hopefully Tillsonburg. And I really have two ideas just to put forth.
5205 Obviously Newcap would very much like to be the licensee of 104.7 in Woodstock. The suggestion we have. The suggestion we have, first suggestion would be to consider if there were evening service, if it were possible, and I know it's technically not feasible for 1510 to become a full‑time 24 hours station, there's a number of technical reasons for that. If, in an ideal world, they were able to broadcast in the evening it would be likely that their night time pattern as an AM radio station would be restricted well within side their full coverage area, as is quite common with every AM radio station in Canada, because the effect of sunlight signal signals after daytime hours.
5206 If you were looking at A, you would have a tower array that would have to be switched to night pattern, your signal coverage would be reduced significantly. The suggestion we have to help make this work would be the 107.3 frequency has been bandied around as a frequency that might be available for Tillsonburg, although it provides coverage that is nowhere near to the extent of the half millivolt 1510 signal.
5207 But what about the idea of if, in fact, Tillsonburg does want to extend their coverage of 1510 beyond the daylight hours, licensing or having them apply for 107.3 as a re‑broadcaster of 1510. So they keep 1510, which provides the great service they've been providing for 54 years. They can continue to provide that service, but when it goes off the air at night they're re‑broadcasting on 107.3.
5208 I don't have the engineering specs on this, but I think it's worth looking at. That 107 contour in the evening would probably provide somewhere around what the night time pattern of 1510 would provide. So in actual fact, the service that the Lamers family and Tillsonburg Broadcasting is providing to the marketplace continues and they are able to stay on the air with 1510 on a re‑broad at 107.3. That would be one idea.
5209 The second idea I would put forth is based on the suggestion yesterday that frequencies be moved around and 94.3 be licensed to Woodstock, taking Sound of Faith off the air and giving 104.7 to Tillsonburg.
5210 What we'd like to suggest as a second alternative is if Newcap were to receive the license for 104.7 to serve Woodstock and the Commission saw it in the best interest of the community to take 94.3 from Sound of Faith and provide it to Tillsonburg Broadcasting, that we would, if we were granted the license, be ready to commit to working with Sound of Faith to find a new frequency that would accomplish their goals. And we would work with them in such a way, we would provide our extensive technical expertise as a corporation and we would fund it to a maximum of $100,000 to make sure that they could get back on the air in a different way if, in fact, that was the determination of the Commission.
5211 I think the first suggestion has more merit for a lot of different reasons, but I don't want to prejudge or pre‑assume anything. Other than that, all I wanted to say on behalf of Newcap was thank you for the opportunity of presenting our proposal. We'd like to thank the positive supporting interventions we received from the citizens of Woodstock, and we would hope to have the opportunity to serve them as we had outlined in our proposal. If you have any questions I'd be happy to address them.
5212 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Commissioner Cram.
5213 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Have you looked at the ‑‑ any other frequencies for yourself in terms of the ones that have been suggested?
5214 MR. MAHEU: The only one we looked at was a study provided by Tillsonburg Broadcasting, and 94.3 I think was raised yesterday as, you know, maybe an alternative for those seeking a license in Woodstock to use that frequency. Without the benefit of a professional technical analysis I wouldn't want to comment.
5215 Just from a tertiary point of view, the signal I saw, especially the three millivolt signal is not great in terms of coverage, doesn't cover Oxford County at all. That's, within my area of expertise, as far as I'd want to go.
5216 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Thanks for trying to help us with some constructive suggestions.
5217 MR. MAHEU: Our pleasure. Thank you.
5218 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Secretary.
5219 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We would now ask CHUM Limited to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their application. You have ten minutes for your presentation.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
5220 MR. SKI: Thank you. Mr. Chair Mr. Vice Chair, Commission members, thank you for this opportunity to reply to the oral and written interventions concerning our application.
5221 We have only a few comments, but first we'd like to express our deep gratitude to the many appearing interveners who took the time to come here from Woodstock and appear on our behalf today. While other applicants may have solicited support earlier than us and succeeded in obtaining support from certain public office holders, we believe the depth and breadth of support for CHUM's application is evidenced by the fact that these interveners, Woodstock and area residents, were the ones that came here personally to tell you their reasons for supporting CHUM. That, we believe, speaks volumes.
5222 In our view, the evidence at this proceeding clearly supports the licensing of a truly local Woodstock radio station in the adult contemporary format as the best use of the 104.7 FM frequency.
5223 There are three applicants that meet this criteria, all we believe are licensable, each has its own strengths. The three choices are Byrnes Communication, one of whose key shareholders is seeking to re‑enter the Woodstock market and their new, stand‑alone independent station; Newcap, who have no radio stations in these region of Ontario, but seek to bring to Woodstock their track record of running small and large market local stations in other parts of Canada; and CHUM.
5224 With our record of local service to small and large markets and our experience and expertise from other parts of Southern Ontario, including the adjacent markets of London and Kitchener.
5225 While each of these three applicants have promised distinct and relevant local service and each, we believe, has done so with the full intention of meeting those commitments, we also believe that CHUM's application represents your best assurance that those commitments will indeed be met for two very simple reasons.
5226 First, because we have stations in London and Kitchener and derivative AC formats, we have no incentive to expand in those markets from a Woodstock AC base to compete with ourselves. In fact, given the issue of second adjacency interference with CHUM FM Toronto on 104.5, we have a real disincentive to push our coverage area outwards into London and Kitchener because to do so would disenfranchise CHUM FM listeners in the eastern parts of that coverage area.
5227 Second, we have a unique combination of experience in smaller Ontario markets, corporate synergies and demonstrated commitment to local service that offers the greatest guarantee of a long term sustainable, viable and truly local Woodstock station. Small markets, as was mentioned earlier, are not a statistic to us. Residents of Lindsay, Brockville and Peterborough will attest to that.
5228 Just in case after all that you're still wondering why is CHUM applying here, why do we care about this market? I can only say this. As trite as it may sound, we do care. CHUM's radio stations are run from the community up, not from head office down. We, myself, Jim, Kerry, Duff, Rob, Kevin, Paul Cugliari VP GM of our Kitchener station who is here but you haven't had the chance to meet, and many others in the CHUM team know we can build the right local team to serve this community well and profitably.
5229 Our track record in Lindsay, Brockville and Peterborough is well documented. This hearing represents and presents a number of good choices for a new local Woodstock radio station. We respectfully suggest that we offer the best assurance of a truly live, local and relevant Woodstock station over both the short and long term.
5230 This completes our oral reply. Thank you very much for hearing our application. On behalf of the CHUM team we'd like to thank the Commission and the Commission staff for your consideration during this hearing process and we'd be pleased to answer any further questions that you might have.
5231 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I just have one question to complete my own notes, Mr. Ski, and we probably put it on the record, but perhaps you could just summarize for me the total hours per week of spoken word programming that your proposed channel would carry. What is that?
5232 MR. SKI: I believe we did put that on the record, but I'll have Duff ‑‑
5233 MR. ROMAN: As local spoken word programming, over six hours.
5234 THE CHAIRPERSON: And ‑‑
5235 MR. ROMAN: But that does not count the anecdotal and informal spoken word of the music host. That's covered by formal commitments to features, news, sports, weather and talk. So the tonnage that could be brought in with the more informal anecdotal announcer chat was not included in that figure.
5236 THE CHAIRPERSON: I believe that that's common with the other applicants as well. Thank you very kindly. Thank you very much. Those are our questions. Madam secretary.
5237 THE SECRETARY: I would now ask Standard Radio to respond to all the interventions that were filed to their application. Gentlemen, you have ten minutes for your presentation.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
5238 MR. DOERR: Mr. Chairman, my name is Braden Doerr, vice president and general manager of Standard's radio stations in London, Ontario. With me is Gary Slaight, president and chief executive officer of Standard Radio Inc.
5239 Standard has applied for a license for a new modern rock radio station for Woodstock on a frequency of 104.7 megahertz. We appreciate this opportunity to provide you with our reply comments as well as follow‑up remarks on questions you have raised during our presentation.
5240 We would like to begin by responding to the intervention filed by Tillsonburg Broadcasting Limited dated May 11, 2005. Tillsonburg Broadcasting opposes the licensing of Standard's application for a new modern rock radio station for Woodstock on the grounds that our proposed service will have a serious negative impact on CKOT FM, Easy 101's revenues and because our proposed station's modern rock format is not sufficiently defined and will overlap with CKOT FM's programming.
5241 We wish to clarify that our proposed service will have minimal, if any, impact on CKOT FM's revenue or audience. Our stations modern rock format is very well defined, as we discussed yesterday, and will not be remotely close to the adult contemporary or easy listening format of CKOT FM.
5242 Our proposed station and CKOT FM also have completely different audiences. CKOT FM Tillsonburg targets the 35 plus audience and our station will target the younger 18 to 34 demographic. There will, therefore, be no duplication in audience or revenue.
5243 In addition approval of our application will have far less of an impact on CKOT FM than the three other applicants at this hearing who are seeking a license for an adult contemporary station for Woodstock.
5244 MR. SLAIGHT: We would also like to take this opportunity to provide you with a response to a question that the Commission asked during our presentation. The question was whether Standard's business plan would still stand if the contour of our frequency was redrawn to exclude London. Our response to that is, yes, it would.
5245 Our revenue projections and assumptions are based on serving the Woodstock market and would not be affected if our frequency's contour were redrawn to exclude London. However, in order to properly and fully serve the residents of the Woodstock area, many of whom commute to London on a daily basis, and in order to provide the greatest exposure possible to new and emerging Canadian rock talent, our preference is to go as far as the London market.
5246 We want to reassure the Commission that our proposed new station will be highly committed to the Woodstock market. We will therefore commit to doing the following by condition of license. One; we will significantly reduce our signal's contour in regard to the City of London. To achieve this, we will modify our intended pattern so that the .5 contour of our signal will not enclose all of London, but will be pulled back considerably. We have provided you with a revised map with our materials which shows you our revised proposed signal contour. As you will see, it would match the coverage of CHUM's proposed service in the London market.
5247 Number two, all of our station identifiers will refer exclusively to the Woodstock area. Number 3, 70 per cent of our news content will consist of local Woodstock area news programming. Number 4, all of our station's weather and traffic information will refer to the Woodstock area. Number 5, our free Public Service Announcement Program will be available only to Woodstock area community groups and organizations who are interested in producing their own PSA announcements. Community groups in the City of London would not be eligible for this proposed initiative.
5248 Number 6, all of our station sales representatives will operate from our station's Woodstock offices. None of our sales staff will be based in London. Number 7, our news and programming personnel will be based in Woodstock. Number 8, we will not solicit advertising in the London market. Number 9, our station's studios will be located in Woodstock and, number ten, all of our station's programming will originate from our Woodstock station.
5249 These are firm and significant commitments that we hope will reassure you of our strong commitment to the local Woodstock community.
5250 We would also like to speak to the question the Commission raised with respect to the extent to which our proposed service will provide on‑air support to new Canadian artists. As we mentioned during our presentation, one of the distinctive features of our modern rock station is that it will provide significant and much needed support for new and emerging Canadian talent.
5251 This is a format that breaks new artists. As we also stated, 75 per cent of the music that we will broadcast will consist of recordings by new artists. We are prepared to accept as a condition of license ensuring that 30 per cent of the music broadcast on our service or 75 per cent of our 40 per cent Canadian content commitment will consist of music by new Canadian modern rock artists. In addition, we will ensure that of the 30 per cent new Canadian music, one‑third of that or ten per cent of the overall music broadcast on the station will consist of songs from new Canadian independent artists.
5252 For the purposes of this commitment, we define an independent Canadian artist as a Canadian artist that has not been signed to a major label.
5253 MR. DEAN: Commissioners, we would also like to clarify our spoken word commitment. We noted that Newcap used a very broad measuring tool to measure its spoken word content. If we measure the amount of spoken word content that we will broadcast on our proposed new service on the same basis as Newcap did, we will be broadcasting approximately twelve hours of spoken word content each week.
5254 We would be happy to provide you with a revised programming grid within 24 hours that will show our spoken word commitment using Newcap's broader measuring approach.
5255 Finally, we would like to address the best use of the 104.7 megahertz frequency. During the presentation by Tillsonburg Broadcasting a number of different frequency options were discussed by the Applicant and the Commission.
5256 We understand that the Commission is faced with the issue of how to satisfy the needs of Woodstock listeners while at the same time considering the needs of the audiences in Tillsonburg. In our view, the best use of the 104.7 megahertz frequency is to grant it to a new local licensee for Woodstock.
5257 Woodstock has a population of approximately 33,000 people and the Woodstock area includes a population base of over 80,000 people. However, for all intents and purposes, Woodstock does not have a local radio service and this is not acceptable.
5258 Tillsonburg, on the other hand, has a population of 14,000 and already has an FM service that adequately meets its local mandate to the Tillsonburg community. That service is CKOT FM, an easy listening station which is owned and operated by Tillsonburg Broadcasting.
5259 Consequently, it is our submission that the best solution is to grant the 104.7 frequency to a new local station for Woodstock. With regard to the Tillsonburg application for an AM FM flip, we too have been brainstorming, sometimes late into the night, looking for a solution that possibly would work for all parties involved.
5260 That being said, we would support both proposals just put forward by Mr. Maheu from Newcap, however, we find the first solution to be preferable of the two.
5261 We would be also be prepared to duplicate Mr. Maheu's obligations put forward in his second proposal.
5262 In closing, it is our submission that Standard's proposal for a new and vibrant modern rock radio station would best serve the needs interests and demands of the Woodstock market. Our news service will add musical diversity to the Woodstock radio landscape, which none of the other applicants for an AC format will do.
5263 Modern rock will fill the largest music hole in the Woodstock radio dial and will have very little impact on The Hawk or Easy 101. Our proposed service will break new artists, provide significant support for the development of Canadian talent through our benefits package and will provide on‑air support to Canadian artists who presently get very little exposure on radio.
5264 Our proposed service will also add a significant amount of local news and information, which is greatly needed in this community. Finally, our proposal also meets the key public policy objectives set out in the Broadcasting Act.
5265 Those are all our comments. It's been a long process this week. I would like to take this opportunity to thank each of you and the staff for the unwavering attention you have given to each of the applicants at this hearing in Niagara Falls. Thank you.
5266 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I assume that in supporting the Newcap's proposal instead of the recommendation they made that Newcap be awarded the 104.7 ‑‑
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
5267 MR. SLAIGHT: Small omission from Mr. Doerr.
5268 THE CHAIRPERSON: We noticed that. Thank you. Madam secretary.
5269 THE SECRETARY: Finally, Mr. Chairman, we would ask Byrnes Communications to respond to all the interventions to their application. Gentlemen, you have ten minutes for your presentation.
REPLY / RÉPLIQUE
5270 MR. BYRNES: Mr. Chair, Mr. Vice Chair, members of the Commission, thank you for the opportunity to respond. My name is Chris Byrnes and with me is my business partner in Byrnes Communications, Gord Marratto.
5271 First, we have to say we were somewhat caught off guard by the Tillsonburg Broadcasting Company proposal that 94.3 was a possible solution for Woodstock. This option was never actually presented to anybody. Even though we had all talked to the Tillsonburg folks, they elected to wait until the presentation. However, we did talk to our engineer this morning and he is of the opinion that 94.3 does, indeed, have limitations and would not be suitable for Woodstock.
5272 Our company also has no interest in displacing the religious broadcaster in Woodstock. Our engineer restated today that in his professional opinion the Byrnes proposal that 107.3 is, in fact, a viable option for the Tillsonburg applicant. You heard their engineer today or recently say their frequency would likely reach 165,000 people.
5273 For the record, and as stated in our application, our 0.5 millivolt coverage will reach 97,989 people. That was the number when our application was filed. Perhaps there's been a few more since then.
5274 We are the people who went to the effort to find the Tillsonburg folks a realistic solution. We have been very open and honest and forthright in our presentation in trying to find them a solution. We're also somewhat puzzled by the Standard response moments ago. They seem to have rewritten their application and there seems to be a lot of new information just been presented. We hope the Commission bear that in mind.
5275 On balance, Byrnes Communications feels the best use of 104.7 will be to award this license to a company who will bring a true local radio station back to Woodstock. The CRTC has a unique opportunity grant this license to a new and independent broadcaster. The inference has been made here during this hearing that only the big companies have the financial capacity to last the distance. This is simply untrue.
5276 Our company has the financial resources to set up this radio station and operate it. Mention has been made that my business partner, Gord Marratto, sold the radio station CKDK some 14 years ago and he will do so again. For the record, I control 80 per cent of this company and I have publicly stated in my presentation to you yesterday that my intention is to operate the radio station and ultimately provide a legacy for my two sons, who were in the audience yesterday.
5277 In fact, I hope to be back before the Commission at some point in the future with another opportunity. Gord.
5278 MR. MARRATTO: Yes, I'd like to speak to the fact that there was an inference made by one of the CHUM interveners that the mayor of Woodstock may have been slightly less than honourable in a response that he made to Commissioner French about the support of the ‑‑ the support he represented being that of the City of Woodstock as opposed to his personal representation.
5279 I have here before me intervention number 660, which has been on file with the Commission since the 28th of April that says:
"Re FM broadcasting license to serve Woodstock, Ingersoll and Oxford County. At the regular council meeting held on Thursday, April 21st, 2005, the following resolution was passed. That Woodstock council supports Byrnes Communications obtaining a broadcasting license to serve Woodstock, Ingersoll and Oxford County. Your truly, Louise Gardshore, City Clerk, City of Woodstock."
5280 I hope that clears matters up. Thank you.
5281 A couple of other things. We noticed this morning that one of the interveners was the president of Robert Q Travel in London and they gave their support to the CHUM application and the franchisee in Woodstock, whom I've known for years, Mr. Wayne Boddy, who is the Robert Q franchisee in Woodstock, has given us his written support and I think that's pretty meaningful.
5282 Also, I respectfully acknowledge Constable McDonald, who appeared on behalf of CHUM supporting the activities of CHUM as it relates to his services. We do have the support of the Chief of Police, Oxford Police Services, Chief Ron Fraser. I feel that's pretty meaningful too.
5283 I'd just like to say one other thing. This is with all due respect to the Tillsonburg application. We are talking now about what they lose by their AM pattern and their AM signal, and I think we all have to remember that when they showed us that beautiful map of 1.4 million people covering all parts of Ontario, how much that has deteriorated over the years and that what we're down to now is a pattern that certainly isn't represented by that picture that we're all looking at.
5284 So maybe the frequency that we're suggesting does, in fact, come closer to covering what they now have covered with their AM station. Thank you.
5285 MR. BYRNES: We have one other suggestion in terms of a possible solution for Tillsonburg. This clearly would need the approval of the Commission, but one possible solution would be to license them with 107.3, but allow them to simulcast and continue with their AM. They seemed to talk a lot about their AM audience and how they would have trouble finding something on FM.
5286 One possible solution that our engineers offered was to simulcast, give them 107.3 and allow them to continue to run their 1510 and simulcast both products.
5287 MR. MARRATTO: We would like to thank the Commission and particularly we'd like to thank our 400 interveners who took the time to write letters of support for our application and to the mayor, who took a day and a half out of his busy time. This is a very active mayor, let me tell you, to come down and offer support.
5288 We have no further comment at this time, but we'd be happy to answer any other questions you might have. Thank you.
5289 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I guess, Mr. Byrnes, you heard Mr. Maheu's proposal, first proposal. I guess the last comment you just made, was that different from his proposal?
5290 MR. BYRNES: Yes, it was. We were proposing, I think, a complete simulcast, whereas I think what Mr. Maheu was proposing, if I heard him correctly, was only simulcasting the evening portions of their AM programming on FM at a time when the AM signal was reduced.
5291 THE CHAIRPERSON: Were you suggesting an all day simulcast?
5292 MR. BYRNES: Yes, sir.
5293 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Those are our questions. Thank you very kindly. Madam Secretary.
5294 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This completes consideration of items 2 to 7 on the agenda. I would like to indicate that there are a number of non‑appearing applications on the agenda of this public hearing.
5295 Interventions were received on some of these applications. The panel will consider these interventions along with the applications and decisions will be rendered at a later date. This completes the agenda of this public hearing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
5296 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. While it completes the agenda, I don't want this hearing to end without acknowledging the fact that for Mr. Pierre Lebel, our long time secretary, this is his last public hearing.
‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements
5297 THE CHAIRPERSON: This represents thirty years at the CRTC and 32 years in the Public Service of Canada.
5298 I remember Pierre used to be the secretary of our endless eight, ten week telecommunications rate hearings in the 70's and he always served the Commission in a manner that combined efficiency and intelligence with an anticipation of the problems and jockeying with the various applicants and interveners for a place before the Commission. Great tact and intelligence and I know I've had feedback over many years of the job that Pierre has done. He will be sorely missed by us at the Commission and we wish him extremely well in his future endeavours.
5299 On behalf of all of us, Pierre, thank you very kindly.
‑‑‑ Applause / Applaudissements
5300 THE CHAIRPERSON: That concludes the hearing.
‑‑‑ Whereupon the hearing concluded at 1250 /
L'audience est terminée à 1250
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