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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT:
Harmony Broadcasting Corporation
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Radisson Hotel Winnipeg Downtown Hotel Radisson Winnipeg
Manitoba Ballroom, 11th Floor Centre-Ville
288 Portage Avenue Salle Manitoba Ballroom
Winnipeg, Manitoba 11e étage
288, avenue Portage
Winnipeg (Manitoba)
29 September 2006 Le 29 septembre 2006
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
Harmony Broadcasting Corporation
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Barbara Cram Chairperson / Présidente
Helen del Val Commissioner / Conseillère
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Gary Krushen Secretary / Secrétaire
William Howard Legal Counsel /
Conseil juridique
Joe Aguiar Hearing Manager / Gérant
de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Radisson Hotel Winnipeg Downtown Hotel Radisson Winnipeg
Manitoba Ballroom, 11th Floor Centre-Ville
288 Portage Avenue Salle Manitoba Ballroom
Winnipeg, Manitoba 11e étage
288, avenue Portage
Winnipeg (Manitoba)
29 September 2006 Le 29 septembre 2006
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
Harmony Broadcasting Corporation 7 / 36
PHASE II
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Martin Boroditsky 93 / 799
PHASE III
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
Harmony Broadcasting Corporation 112 / 900
Winnipeg, Manitoba / Winnipeg (Manitoba)
‑‑‑ Upon commencing on Friday, September 29, 2006
at 0930 / L'audience débute le vendredi
29 septembre 2006 à 0930
LISTNUM 1 \l 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen and welcome to this public hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12 My name is Barbara Cram, and I am the Regional Commissioner for Manitoba and Saskatchewan. I will be presiding over this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 13 Joining me on the Panel are my colleagues: Helen del Val, Regional Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon; and Ronald Williams, Regional Commissioner for Alberta and the Northwest Territories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 14 The Commission team assisting us includes: Manager of English Radio Operations, Joe Aguiar, in the middle, also acting as the Hearing Manager; William Howard, Senior Legal Counsel, on the left closest to our table; and Gary Krushen, Director of the Western and Northern Regions, who is also acting as Hearing Secretary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 15 Please speak with Mr. Krushen if you have any questions regarding procedure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 16 At this hearing the Commission will examine the apparent failure of Harmony Broadcasting, the licensee of the instructional campus radio station CJWV‑FM Winnipeg, to comply with certain sections of the Radio Regulations, 1986 and conditions of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 17 Au cours de cette audience, le conseil examinera le non‑conformité apparente de la titulaire de la station de radio de campus d'enseignement, CJWV‑FM Winnipeg, Harmony Broadcasting, relative à certains articles des Règlements de 1986 sur le radio et à certaines de ses conditions de licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 18 Following the receipt of complaints alleging CJWV‑FM's non‑compliance with its conditions of licence and elements of the Campus Radio Policy, our staff requested that Harmony Broadcasting provide logger tapes for the week of April 17‑23, 2005.
LISTNUM 1 \l 19 However, the licensee failed to submit the requested material. Harmony Broadcasting was then notified by staff that its failure to respond to the request constituted a violation of sections 8(4), 8(5) and 8(6) of the Radio Regulations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 110 The Commission staff made further requests to obtain the logger tapes for the week in question, which were finally produced on 20 June 2005.
LISTNUM 1 \l 111 The examination conducted by staff revealed an apparent non‑compliance with section 2.2(8) of the Regulations as the level of Canadian content broadcast by the licensee was 31 percent instead of the regulatory minimum of 35.
LISTNUM 1 \l 112 The examination also revealed shortfalls relating to the following three conditions of licence:
LISTNUM 1 \l 113 (1) the licensee broadcast a level of 4.73 percent category 3 music instead of the weekly minimum of 5 percent;
LISTNUM 1 \l 114 (2) the licensee broadcast a weekly level of .83 percent news instead of the weekly minimum of 4 percent;
LISTNUM 1 \l 115 (3) and the absence of any formal education programming, despite its condition of licence to broadcast a minimum of two hours of such programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 116 In an attempt to conduct a second review of the station's programming, Commission staff requested broadcasting material for the week of January 29 to February 4, 2006. This material was never received, which again constitutes a violation of sections 8 and 9 of the Radio Regulations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 117 Additionally, the Commission notes issues relating to Harmony Broadcasting's operation as an instructional campus radio station, as set out in the Campus Radio Policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 118 Consequently, as stated in Broadcasting Notice of Public Hearing CRTC 2006‑8, and pursuant to section 12 of the Broadcasting Act, Harmony Broadcasting must show cause as to why a mandatory order should not be issued by the Commission. Such an order would require the licensee to conform with the Regulations relating to Canadian content and its conditions of licence regarding the broadcasting of Category 3 music, news and formal education programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 119 I will now invite the Secretary, Mr. Krushen, to explain the procedures we will be following.
LISTNUM 1 \l 120 Mr. Krushen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 121 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 122 Before beginning, I would like to go over a few housekeeping matters to ensure the proper conduct of the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 123 When you are in the hearing room, we would ask that you please turn off your cell phones, pagers, Blackberries and other electronic devices as they can cause an unwelcome distraction for participants and Commissioners and they cause interference on the internal communication system used by the translators. We would appreciate your co‑operation in this regard throughout the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 124 We expect the hearing to take approximately half a day, with a break in the morning. We will let you know of any scheduled changes that may occur.
LISTNUM 1 \l 125 The Prairie Room will serve as examination room where you can examine the public files pertaining to the proceedings being considered at this hearing. The Prairie Room is located one floor above us, on the 12th floor. As indicated in the agenda, the telephone number of the examination room is 984‑8078.
LISTNUM 1 \l 126 There is a verbatim transcript of this hearing being taken by the court reporter at the table in front of me. If you have any questions on how to obtain all or part of the transcript, please approach the court reporter during the break. Please note the full transcript will be made available on the Commission's website shortly after the conclusion of the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 127 Finally, simultaneous translation is available during the hearing. You can obtain a translation receiver through the technician at the back of the room. The English interpretation is on Channel 1 and the French is on Channel 2.
LISTNUM 1 \l 128 The Commission will proceed with the hearing of these matters as follows.
LISTNUM 1 \l 129 First we will hear from the licensee, who will be granted 20 minutes to make his presentation. Questions from the Commission will follow each presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 130 In Phase II the only intervenor to appear at this hearing will present his intervention, and ten minutes will be allowed for his presentation. Again questions from the Commission may follow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 131 Phase III provides an opportunity for the licensee to reply to all the interventions submitted on these matters. Ten minutes are allowed for this reply and again questions may follow.
LISTNUM 1 \l 132 Now, Madam Chair, we will now examine the complaints regarding Harmony Broadcasting Corporation, licensee of the instructional campus radio programming undertaking CJWV‑FM Winnipeg, concerning its non‑compliance with the station's conditions of licence included in CJWV‑FM Winnipeg‑Licence renewal, Broadcasting Decision CRTC 2004‑340 and elements of the Campus Radio Policy as set out in Public Notice CRTC 2001‑12.
LISTNUM 1 \l 133 Appearing for the licensee is Mr. Franc Capozzolo. You will have 20 minutes to make your presentation
LISTNUM 1 \l 134 Mr. Capozzolo, please introduce the gentlemen with you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 135 Thank you.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 136 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Thank you, Mr. Krushen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 137 To my left is my legal counsel today. His name is William Tweed, of Abrams & Tweed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 138 MR. TWEED: Commissioners, Madam Chair, I would like to make a very brief overview of the licensee's response to the inquiry in this hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 139 First off, there is no doubt that the licensee was not in compliance with the regulations during the times in question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 140 The licensee has now brought themselves into compliance and they are fully in compliance with the Regulations and, in particular, the Public Notice CRTC 2000‑12 dealing with campus stations instructional.
LISTNUM 1 \l 141 This organization began as a very small organization that was perhaps under‑funded and under‑staffed. Mr. Capozzolo, the CEO, wore a multitude of hats. He was the CEO, the office manager, the broadcaster, the programmer, the teacher‑mentor, the janitor. He had all of the roles with little help. He had some volunteers. He had people that were inexperienced in assisting him.
LISTNUM 1 \l 142 The regulatory non‑compliance came as a result of him not giving the Regulations the attention that they are due. He had assistants helping him with that, and he didn't provide adequate supervision to ensure that they were interpreting the Regulations correctly and following them as they are required to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 143 Those issues have been addressed and he is now and will undertake to make sure that he stays in compliance with the Regulations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 144 The question of the school and the instructional aspect of the school proved to be a much greater challenge than he originally anticipated. The road to accreditation in getting into a position where he can actually take on the classes and get an accredited course presented for students proved to be a much bigger challenge than was originally anticipated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 145 As the Commission is aware and with documents that have been filed, he now has an association with Robertson College of Winnipeg. Finally, in July of this year, he received accreditation and approval from Manitoba's regulator of private vocational institutes and he is now fully accredited and able to present the course that he is planning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 146 We are now in a position to go out and solicit students to commence the first full formal class, which is scheduled to commence in January.
LISTNUM 1 \l 147 They have from the outset intended to be a training institution. They originally set up the facility. They built training labs, studio simulators and worked at writing the curriculum that has subsequently been approved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 148 During the period of time between the beginning and now, they have carried out mentorship programs with other people, people who had an interest in becoming broadcasters or working in the broadcast industry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 149 Those people started as volunteers. Some of them continued to get partially paid at an entry level as entry level employees, and some of them have gone on into commercial careers with broadcasters. They received mentorship and training in announcing, promoting, marketing, advertising, sales and various other things that people in the industry would be expected to require.
LISTNUM 1 \l 150 As I indicated earlier, the programming that is required, requiring the various levels of Canadian content and the types of music, the station is now in full compliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 151 There has been some question about the board of directors. The list of directors was filed with the Commission on June 24, 2005. It is in the public record. That list is current and it is the same people that are on the board of directors, with the exception of one Mr. Dryden, who was one of the people that was being mentored and is no longer associated with the school. So he is no longer a director.
LISTNUM 1 \l 152 Other than that, the directorship of the corporation is as per that submission that was done a little over a year ago.
LISTNUM 1 \l 153 In summation, the challenges of setting up the instructional campus radio proved to be a little bit more daunting than was originally anticipated, and the shortage of resources, both in money and time, have caused a slipping through the cracks, if you will, of the lack of supervision that should have taken place to ensure the compliance with the Regulations was maintained. It wasn't. The system had problems. They have been corrected and we do not expect to have the station receiving any further concerns from the CRTC for non‑compliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 154 I have raised some of the issues that I think have been addressed in the submissions. If you would like any more detailed information about any of those, I would defer to Mr. Capozzolo who would be familiar and be able to answer your questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 155 Thank you.
THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Tweed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 156 This is now the time for questions by the Panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 157 I will be asking questions regarding breaches of the Regs and conditions of licence. My colleague Commissioner del Val will be asking questions about formal education, alternative programming, the board and the educational affiliation. My colleague Commissioner Williams will be discussing the issue of what you have done and intend to do in the future to remedy the alleged breaches.
LISTNUM 1 \l 158 I wanted to start first ‑‑ and we can shorten things up fairly quickly, Mr. Tweed and Mr. Capozzolo, although I don't know who to address this to.
LISTNUM 1 \l 159 Your response to the CAB intervention, dated September 15, 2006, at the penultimate paragraph on page 3, states:
"Harmony Broadcasting admits it was not in compliance with the Radio Regulations."
LISTNUM 1 \l 160 I want to be specific about that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 161 The issue is there are two breaches in relation to logger tapes, and that is section 8(4)(3)(6) and section 9 of the Radio Regulations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 162 Then there is a further breach in relation to Canadian content, and that is section 2.2(8), in that the Canadian content was 31 percent as opposed to 35.
LISTNUM 1 \l 163 Are you admitting to all three of those breaches?
LISTNUM 1 \l 164 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Can you give them to me one more time, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 165 THE CHAIRPERSON: Give them to you again?
LISTNUM 1 \l 166 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, the three breaches.
LISTNUM 1 \l 167 THE CHAIRPERSON: The first one was failure to supply logger tapes, and that is the demand for 17‑23 April 2005. That is a breach of section 8(4) through (6): that upon request and within the time limit required, you shall supply the logger tapes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 168 Do you agree that you have breached that section in relation to that request?
LISTNUM 1 \l 169 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 170 THE CHAIRPERSON: The second one was a further request for logger tapes for the period of 29 January 2006 through 4 February 2006.
LISTNUM 1 \l 171 Do you agree that you violated that and that it was never supplied?
LISTNUM 1 \l 172 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 173 THE CHAIRPERSON: The third violation of the Regs is upon monitoring the tapes that were received for the period of 17‑23 April 2005, the Canadian content was 31 percent instead of the regulatory minimum of 35 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 174 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, they were.
LISTNUM 1 \l 175 THE CHAIRPERSON: You admit to that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 176 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 177 THE CHAIRPERSON: I want to then go into your COLs, your conditions of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 178 This again is in terms of the monitoring of the tapes that we did receive from you for the period of 17‑23 April 2005, the staff assessment referred to news being at a rate of .83 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 179 Do you agree with that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 180 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, they were.
LISTNUM 1 \l 181 THE CHAIRPERSON: And there was a condition of licence that you would provide 5 percent of news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 182 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 183 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you agree that you are in breach.
LISTNUM 1 \l 184 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 185 THE CHAIRPERSON: The second one is in relation ‑‑ and again this is in reference to the staff monitoring ‑‑ to the category 3 music. You agree that the monitoring assessment found that you had 4.73 percent of category 3 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 186 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 187 THE CHAIRPERSON: And you agree that the condition of licence required of you is 5 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 188 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 189 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the same with your category ‑‑ well, we have talked about your category 2 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 190 That seems to be all of my questions. I now turn it over to Commissioner del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 191 Thank you, Mr. Capozzolo and Mr. Tweed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 192 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 193 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Mr. Capozzolo and Mr. Tweed, as the Chair indicated, I will be talking to you about elements of the Campus Radio Policy and your exchange this morning has clarified some issues. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 194 On your opening statement, Mr. Tweed, you said that it was very difficult getting the accreditation and finally it was July of this year that you have now become accredited.
LISTNUM 1 \l 195 Is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 196 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Actually, the curriculum was approved this past July. I am involved with an accredited institution, and the curriculum which I put together was submitted by that institution, Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 197 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Who submitted the application for accreditation then?
LISTNUM 1 \l 198 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I think that was just a misunderstanding. We submitted the curriculum, the broadcast curriculum, through Robertson College. It had to be approved by the Private Vocational Institutions Branch of the Board of Education.
LISTNUM 1 \l 199 It was finally approved this past July.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1100 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So what is the name of the entity that became accredited?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1101 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Robertson College. They have accreditation. It is just that the course was approved.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1102 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1103 So that is as of July of 2006. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1104 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1105 COMMISSIONER del VAL: This means that prior to July of 2006 there was no such accreditation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1106 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1107 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1108 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Am I jumping too far to say that the issue of whether you did comply up to July of 2006 is still alive?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1109 I will simplify the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1110 Did you then comply with the requirement under the campus policy of needing to be associated with a post secondary education institution prior to July of 2006?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1111 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, I was associated with Robertson College prior to that date.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1112 COMMISSIONER del VAL: At the time of licence renewal, which was September 1, 2004 until now, were there any periods of non‑compliance with the requirement that you be associated with a post secondary institution?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1113 MR. CAPOZZOLO: No. I was actually associated with another post secondary, Winnipeg South Technical College. Unfortunately, that relationship had to come to a close in September of 2004 based on a bad business relationship that affected the relationship with the school.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1114 Then I had to find a new school to be associated with and that took some time, a few months. Then Robertson College came on board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1115 COMMISSIONER del VAL: During those few months when you were looking for a college, you didn't have an association with a post secondary education institution. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1116 MR. CAPOZZOLO: No. There would have been a three‑month period where I did not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1117 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So for three months, then, there was not any compliance with the requirement that the station be associated with a post secondary education institute.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1118 Is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1119 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I did make the Commission aware that I was in search of such a relationship.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1120 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes. But during the search, for those three months there was no association in place.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1121 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1122 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I would like to talk about the formal education programming that provides some academic instruction, which is a requirement under the campus policy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1123 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1124 COMMISSIONER del VAL: You are aware that that was in Decision 2004‑340, I think, where your licence was renewed. That referred to the conditions in Public Notice 2000‑156, which is the new licence form for campus radio stations, of November 16, 2000.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1125 Is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1126 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1127 COMMISSIONER del VAL: In there one of the conditions of licence, No. 13, is that there be two hours per broadcast week to provide formal educational programming that provides academic instruction.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1128 Do you agree with that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1129 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, I do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1130 COMMISSIONER del VAL: The logger tapes that you provided of the station's broadcasts from April 17‑23, 2005, that is an exact copy of the station's broadcasts during that week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1131 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1132 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1133 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What formal educational programming that provides academic instruction during that week will be contained in that logger tape that you have submitted.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1134 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1135 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Can you repeat that, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1136 COMMISSIONER del VAL: The logger tapes will contain all of the broadcasts for that week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1137 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1138 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And therefore would contain all of the formal educational programming that provides educational instruction during that week.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1139 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1140 MR. CAPOZZOLO: What I believe at the time was educational.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1141 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I think there is some correspondence where staff has indicated to you that according to our analysis, there is no such programming disclosed by the logger tapes that would qualify as formal educational programming that provides academic instruction. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1142 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1143 COMMISSIONER del VAL: You have replied in your letter of November 17th with your interpretation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1144 Do you still take the position that you did provide formal educational programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1145 MR. CAPOZZOLO: What I believed to be formal educational programming at the time. At this time I would like to take this opportunity to say a few things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1146 First and foremost, I would like to apologize to the Commission if my failure to submit these logger tapes was seen as a signal of disrespect or arrogance. Nothing of the kind was ever intended.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1147 Mr. Tweed basically summed it up when he said too few people, too few resources. Although I have been in the radio industry and have worked for the biggest companies in the country for 30 years, I have no reason or desire to break conditions of licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1148 I have worked at the programming end of this business for 20 years, and during that time I made sure that we were in compliance as required by regular commercial radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1149 However, this is a different beast. I didn't have the necessary resources to have regulatory counsel, and therefore I interpreted some of these regulations as this would count, this would count.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1150 For example, with news, I was never aware that news about sports or news about entertainment didn't count as news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1151 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1152 We appreciate your candour because it shortens the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1153 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1154 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Is it your admission now that then you did not provide formal educational programming, as required by the Campus Radio Policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1155 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1156 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I will jump to the directors and officers and then perhaps after that come back to try and learn a bit more about the association that you now have with Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1157 MR. CAPOZZOLO: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1158 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I am looking at your current list of directors and officers as you have kindly provided in your letter of June 24, 2006, and you made the correction today that Mr. Dryden, the student, has now resigned.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1159 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1160 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, he is no longer with us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1161 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So that is the only change to the list.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1162 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes. This is actually quite recent, I believe two or three weeks ago.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1163 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I just want to confirm that on my list you have Mr. Trevor Hawkes, who is a community representative appointed as of January 22, 2005, for a three‑year term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1164 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1165 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Then Angela Cieslak, a volunteer appointed as of January 22, 2005, for a three‑year term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1166 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1167 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Ronald Taylor, College of Faculty representative appointed as of January 22, 2005, for a three‑year term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1168 Kenneth Penner, a college representative, appointed as of June 1, 2005, for 1.66 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1169 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1170 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Devol Dryden, student, who has now left you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1171 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1172 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Roxanne Taylore, who is a volunteer. January 22, 2005 was the date of her appointment, for a two‑year term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1173 Myles Shatsky, community representative. June 22, 2005 was the date of appointment, for a one‑year term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1174 Then Warren Kowalson, student, appointed as of June 1, 2005, for .66 years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1175 And yourself, appointed as of January 22, 2005.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1176 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1177 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1178 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Mr. Warren Kowalson, appointed as of June 1, 2005, for .66 years, or eight months, from June 1, 2005, would have expired as of March 2006.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1179 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1180 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I believe that might be the case, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1181 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So now with the departure of Mr. Dryden, you will again have no student representatives on the board. Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1182 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Mr. Kowalson is still on the board. We just haven't gone through the formalities of doing it through the minutes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1183 He is still with us, Mr. Kowalson, but he is now part of the staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1184 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So is Mr. Kowalson a student?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1185 MR. CAPOZZOLO: He was a student. He was a student for a year.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1186 COMMISSIONER del VAL: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1187 So then you don't have any representative from the student body again.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1188 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Not at this time. We are scheduled for our first intake for January 9, 2007.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1189 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What is the first intake? Is it the first enrolment of students?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1190 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1191 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And when is that happening?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1192 MR. CAPOZZOLO: January 9th.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1193 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So how did you comply with the requirement that there be a student representative on the board prior to your first intake?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1194 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I tried to live up to the spirit of the Regulations until I could get de facto in compliance with the school. Therefore, there were people that we mentored and when they became proficient enough, they became part of the staff.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1195 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Who of the current list of directors are employees?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1196 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Mr. Kowalson, myself and that is it on this list.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1197 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Going back to Mr. Dryden, is he still with the board?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1198 MR. CAPOZZOLO: No, he is not. His position was terminated.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1199 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Would you admit that there is currently, as we speak, non‑compliance with the expectation that there be a balanced board, including representation from the student body?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1200 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Well, until we get a student body I don't know how that would be possible. Right now we are waiting to ‑‑ we could look at this period of time as a summer period maybe. We do intend to have a representative of the student body once we get a student body to be able to select from.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1201 COMMISSIONER del VAL: At this moment you don't have a student representative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1202 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That would be Mr. Kowalson. He is not actually a student at this time, but he represents having been a student.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1203 COMMISSIONER del VAL: But he is not a student right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1204 MR. CAPOZZOLO: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1205 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So right now you don't have a student representative.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1206 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Right now we don't, no.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1207 COMMISSIONER del VAL: At the time you applied for renewal ‑‑ and the application was, I think, dated October 23 of 2003.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1208 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1209 COMMISSIONER del VAL: The board that you had submitted then consisted of Mr. Hawkes, Mr. Doug Kurtz, Ms Janet Capozzolo, Ms Roxanne Taylore, Mr. Myles Shatsky, Mr. Ron Taylor and yourself.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1210 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1211 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I do believe, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1212 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And that was October 23, 2003.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1213 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes. At that time we had an association with Winnipeg South Technical. Mr. Kurtz was a representative of that school at the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1214 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I am looking at the corporate returns that you filed with the Manitoba Companies Office, where you notified them of the directors and officers of the company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1215 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1216 COMMISSIONER del VAL: The 2004 return certifying the information to be correct as of January 30, 2004, disclosed three directors: Mr. Peter Bjorklund, Paula Bjorklund, Manjit Blakr. And it also showed that they were appointed as of January 29, 2004.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1217 I know that a year later, with the amended 2004 return that was signed on January 14, 2005, certifying the information to be correct as of January 14, 2005, a year later, there were three directors: yourself, Trevor Hawkes and Janet Capozzolo, and that those basically replaced Peter and Paula Bjorklund and Manjit Blakr as of the same day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1218 That is part of the sale of the station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1219 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Mr. Tweed will answer that question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1220 MR. TWEED: At that time in the history there was the disagreement over what the agreement was between the parties. That registration with the Corporations Branch was made without the knowledge or consent of the corporation, and it was subsequently withdrawn.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1221 Those three people were never officially directors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1222 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. That makes sense because the 2004 amended return, which was filed as of January 14, 2005, corrected the information that was filed with the original 2004 return.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1223 MR. TWEED: Yes. There was no authority for that filing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1224 COMMISSIONER del VAL: The correct return is the 2004 amended return that Mr. Capozzolo filed as of January 14, 2005.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1225 Is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1226 MR. TWEED: Yes. And I believe in the circumstances we weren't aware of the incorrect filing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1227 COMMISSIONER del VAL: That is right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1228 On January 14, 2005, Mr. Capozzolo said that as of January 29, 2004 there are three directors: Mr. Franc Capozzolo, Trevor Hawkes and Janet Capozzolo.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1229 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1230 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1231 COMMISSIONER del VAL: That was four months after you filed your application with the CRTC naming, I think, seven as directors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1232 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes. These particular individuals tampered with and interfered with the existing board members. Therefore, I took it down to the three officers of the board because people were intimidated and threatened.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1233 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So you took it down to three.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1234 The Campus Radio Policy requires balanced representation amongst: (1) student body; (2) associated college; (3) station volunteers; and (4) community at large.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1235 So if I do a body count, I think you would need four to meet the Campus Radio Policy requirement. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1236 MR. CAPOZZOLO: My understanding at the time, because there was some legal haggling involved, is that you need three board members to actually be legal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1237 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I think the three is a requirement under your Manitoba Corporations Act. I am talking about the CRTC regulation of the Campus Radio Policy requiring a board that has balanced representation amongst those four groups.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1238 To comply with the Manitoba Corporations Act you would need three, but to then additionally comply with the Campus Radio Policy you would need a body count of four.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1239 Is that correct?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1240 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Correct. However, the other members of the board were frightened away by the behaviour of those particular individuals.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1241 COMMISSIONER del VAL: It is a fact that there were only three directors.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1242 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, it is.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1243 COMMISSIONER del VAL: How did the three meet the requirements of balanced representation as amongst student body, the college, station volunteers and community at large as expected by the campus policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1244 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Once again, that was during the period of time when I was looking to establish an association with an accredited college. It wasn't a period of time that we purposely decided to run with three members. We had to re‑establish a board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1245 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So there was a period, unfortunately, of non‑compliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1246 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Unfortunately, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1247 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I will go back to the association with Robertson College right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1248 I know, Mr. Tweed, you referred in your letter of September 15th to us that there was a filed copy of the association agreement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1249 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, there is. I filed it with the director, Mr. Krushen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1250 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Do you have a copy with you now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1251 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I'm sorry, I didn't bring one. I thought because it had been filed, it was already here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1252 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Could you file it again, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1253 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1254 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What is the date of that agreement?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1255 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I don't recall; I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1256 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Maybe more importantly what is the effective term of that agreement?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1257 MR. CAPOZZOLO: The effective term, the approval to the curriculum was given on a one‑year basis and will be reviewed by the Private Vocational Institutions Branch of the Board of Education.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1258 The agreement with the college I believe is three years.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1259 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Mr. Tweed, do you think your client could file the agreement to evidence the association with the college, if there is one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1260 MR. CAPOZZOLO: We prefer that be kept confidential. We have submitted it to the Commission, but there is proprietary information that we prefer to keep private in the document.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1261 COMMISSIONER del VAL: You can file on a confidential basis.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1262 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1263 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And request confidentiality at the time of filing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1264 MR. CAPOZZOLO: May I ask Mr. Krushen if it is still on file?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1265 THE SECRETARY: I believe that we do have that on file, but because it was submitted to me on a confidential basis it is not part of the record of this proceeding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1266 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1267 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I am turning to your letter of June 24, 2005 to the Commission, Mr. Capozzolo, and I am not clear on what and who is the Winnipeg Broadcast Training Centre and the association between the radio station and the Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1268 Could you explain the whole relationship, please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1269 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Until we got into compliance with an accredited institution, as I mentioned earlier I tried to live up to the spirit of the Regulations. We did provide some short‑term courses under the Private Vocational Institutions Act. You are allowed to provide courses that are $250 or less for a period of six to eight weeks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1270 COMMISSIONER del VAL: When you say "we" here, what entity are you referring to? Is it the radio station, the Winnipeg Broadcast ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1271 MR. CAPOZZOLO: The whole thing. I am involved with all aspects of Harmony Broadcasting, as well as the Broadcast Training Centre is what we refer to as the radio/labs that house the labs portion of the curriculum with Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1272 So we just refer to it as the Broadcast Training Centre.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1273 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So is Robertson College part of the Winnipeg Broadcast Training Centre?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1274 MR. CAPOZZOLO: How do you mean that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1275 There is a numbered company that is the go‑between between Harmony Broadcasting and Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1276 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Mr. Capozzolo, I don't know who Winnipeg Broadcast Training Centre is. That is my problem.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1277 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That would be me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1278 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Is it a different entity from the station, from our licensee?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1279 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes. It is a for profit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1280 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Then the association agreement is not directly between the radio station, our licensee, and Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1281 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1282 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What role does ‑‑ I will back up.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1283 The entity that is accredited is Robertson College ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1284 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes. The Broadcast Training Centre owns the curriculum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1285 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay. Is there any formal agreement between the licensee and the Winnipeg Broadcast Training Centre?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1286 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, there is a long‑term agreement. And the training centre has subcontracted to Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1287 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Who provides the radio station with educational programming? Which entity does that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1288 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I'm not quite sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1289 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1290 MR. CAPOZZOLO: It is just programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1291 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I am going to be asking you two questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1292 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1293 COMMISSIONER del VAL: The first question is: What role does the Winnipeg Broadcast Training Centre play in helping Harmony, the radio station, provide formal educational programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1294 The second question is the same question but what role does Robertson College play?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1295 MR. CAPOZZOLO: The numbered company ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1296 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Which is the numbered company?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1297 MR. CAPOZZOLO: We will call it the Broadcast Training Centre.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1298 That is a go‑between, if you will, or is a contractor to Robertson College. That training centre provides the labs and facilities where students will record their homework or their assignments and work with the equipment and that will then be provided to Harmony Broadcasting for other use.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1299 COMMISSIONER del VAL: When you say the numbered company, what is the legal name of that company?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1300 MR. CAPOZZOLO: At this time it is just a numbered company.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1301 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I know. What is the number?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1302 You could provide that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1303 Could you please provide that as an undertaking?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1304 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1305 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1306 By the end of the day? Is that doable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1307 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, that is doable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1308 COMMISSIONER del VAL: That numbered company has been incorporated?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1309 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1310 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Could you provide the incorporation document with the directors and officers, please?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1311 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1312 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Again by the end of the day. Is that doable?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1313 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1314 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1315 MR. TWEED: I am not sure that we can get it by the end of the day, but we can certainly undertake to file it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1316 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1317 Just give me a date that is reasonable for you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1318 MR. CAPOZZOLO: A photocopy would be fine. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1319 I could get that this afternoon. The offices are very close.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1320 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Who are the directors and officers of the numbered company right now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1321 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I am.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1322 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I know that you said that you have a first intake coming up for the program with Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1323 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1324 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What will be the number of students that you will take?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1325 MR. CAPOZZOLO: As many as humanly possible. Ideally, 12 or better.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1326 COMMISSIONER del VAL: But the class size is about 12?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1327 MR. CAPOZZOLO: No. The class size would preferably be 24, but you need a minimum of 12 to make it feasible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1328 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What duties will the students be assigned at the station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1329 MR. CAPOZZOLO: We ran into an issue with the Private Vocational Institutions people because somehow they have the perception that I was going to use the students as cheap labour to provide services to the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1330 They will provide whatever it is that they can provide. The more they can do, the more they will do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1331 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Is there a part of the curriculum that is formal structured involvement at the station that will count toward their curriculum?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1332 MR. CAPOZZOLO: There will be assignments that could potentially be used on the air covering new stories, recording commercials, writing commercials. We do have to be careful, according to the Private Vocationals people, that any work that generates revenue, that it be recompensed in some way.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1333 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Going back to the board, how are decisions concerning the radio station made? Who makes those decisions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1334 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Those decisions for the most part, up until this point, until we established a firm agreement with Robertson College, were made superficially in terms of informal meetings and just bringing the board up to date on what was going on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1335 There was very little to discuss other than maintaining economic viability.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1336 COMMISSIONER del VAL: And made amongst all of the individuals who were appointed to the board?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1337 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1338 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Are the decisions carried? Is it a majority vote? How else are decisions carried?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1339 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Usually they are deferred to the Executive Director.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1340 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Who is the Executive Director?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1341 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That would be me as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1342 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Then you as the Executive Director, Mr. Capozzolo, you really have control over the station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1343 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Well, control of the station in the sense that there are expenses that need to be met and I am entirely and wholly responsible for coming up with the revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1344 Therefore, we will vote on things that might require some assistance of the board members, that type of thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1345 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What about programming decisions? Does that apply also to programming decisions?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1346 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Programming decisions are made and finalized. The programming decision basically was to run the radio station as if it were a commercial entity, simply because we are training people to go work in the commercial radio environment. Therefore, it wouldn't make sense to do anything other.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1347 And this is something that was voted upon by the board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1348 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Who made the decision, as you described, to run the radio station as a commercial entity?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1349 MR. CAPOZZOLO: The decision was made by the board.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1350 COMMISSIONER del VAL: In that case, did the board also defer to you as the Executive Director?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1351 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1352 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So that is on the commercial station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1353 The Campus Radio Policy also has a requirement that the programming of the station be alternative and complementary programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1354 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1355 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I note from Mr. Tweed's letter of September 15th that an overview of the programming is provided.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1356 How do you fulfil that requirement? How do you feel that the station meets the requirement of providing alternative and complementary programming given that alternative programming is defined under the policy as alternative music ‑‑ and the Chair has talked about the levels of requirement ‑‑ then educational programming, which I think you have just earlier also said that you don't meet that requirement?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1357 MR. CAPOZZOLO: We do now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1358 COMMISSIONER del VAL: You do now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1359 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1360 COMMISSIONER del VAL: But up until ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1361 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Up until February when I was informed that the programming was in fact out of compliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1362 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay, great.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1363 The news didn't either. I guess the other one is spoken word.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1364 MR. CAPOZZOLO: With spoken word we were always in compliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1365 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1366 How do you comply now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1367 MR. CAPOZZOLO: In terms of offering alternative programming, there is no radio station that I am aware of in the marketplace, or within the vicinity of this marketplace, that is a 100 percent Urban Music format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1368 We feel that is something that lacks in this marketplace. It is something that is not financially viable in this marketplace, simply because of the smaller population of people of colour in Winnipeg, and Manitoba for that matter.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1369 We felt that this would not infringe heavily on the existing or traditional broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1370 We also felt that this would be a format that would be appealing to those people that we hoped would take the course.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1371 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1372 Is there any duplication of your format with any of the commercial FM stations in the same market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1373 MR. CAPOZZOLO: There would be a percentage of the format. A percentage of all formats is similar to other formats, simply by the nature of crossover heads.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1374 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1375 MR. CAPOZZOLO: There are Country songs that appear on traditionally Rhythmic stations. There is going to be Urban music or songs from the Urban world that will appear on Top 40 and Rhythmic based radio stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1376 COMMISSIONER del VAL: What percentage of overlap would you estimate there to be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1377 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Roughly somewhere in the neighbourhood of 20 to 25 percent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1378 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Going back to the board, how do you elect or appoint the members to the board?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1379 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Through a membership and the typical procedures governing boards, rules of order, et cetera.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1380 COMMISSIONER del VAL: But how do you find the individuals? How do they come forward?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1381 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Through memberships, through invitation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1382 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Memberships in what?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1383 MR. CAPOZZOLO: The board is elected through membership. There have been a few elections. Generally the board up until this time has gone through these various evolutions based on outside interference for the most part. But that is certainly part of the process.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1384 COMMISSIONER del VAL: The members who elect the board, of what organization are they members?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1385 They are members of which organization?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1386 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Harmony Broadcasting.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1387 COMMISSIONER del VAL: So Harmony Broadcasting is a non‑profit organization.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1388 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1389 COMMISSIONER del VAL: How many members does it have?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1390 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Forty or so.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1391 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Pardon me?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1392 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Forty.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1393 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Forty.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1394 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Thereabouts. It could be a little more or a little less; just enough to get that basis established. Once we are in full swing with the school, then we have a more proper path to follow. Right now we just followed ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1395 COMMISSIONER del VAL: But Harmony Broadcasting, the company, has only one shareholder. Right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1396 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Correct. Well, there are no shareholders but I established the appropriation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1397 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I can't figure out where the members came in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1398 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I was told that I needed members, so I solicited friends and that type of thing to become members, to get the process moving as it should.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 1399 THE CHAIRPERSON: I think we will take our morning break now. By my watch it is 10:35, so we will break for 15 minutes, until ten to 11:00.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1400 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Thank you.
‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1035 / Suspension à 1035
‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1055 / Reprise à 1055
LISTNUM 1 \l 1401 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We will come back to the session.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1402 Commissioner del Val.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1403 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1404 I just want to find out a little bit more about your association with Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1405 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1406 COMMISSIONER del VAL: If I were a student interested in the broadcasting program, I know that I have looked on the Robertson College website and they are advertising a broadcasting program. So I would approach Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1407 Then who do I pay if I want ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1408 MR. CAPOZZOLO: You would pay Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1409 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I would get the credit from Robertson College.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1410 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1411 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Where does Winnipeg Broadcast Training Centre come in?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1412 MR. CAPOZZOLO: It is just an entity to facilitate the relationship.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1413 COMMISSIONER del VAL: Does Robertson College pay the Winnipeg Broadcast Training Centre certain ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1414 MR. CAPOZZOLO: A portion of the students' fees help pay for the expenses associated with running a radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1415 COMMISSIONER del VAL: These students would work or have some experience from the Harmony Broadcasting station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1416 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes. You could almost look at it as a campus per se.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1417 Robertson College is in fact about a two‑to‑three minute walk from the radio station, where the radio station is located, and half of the floor ‑‑ Commissioner Cram, you have visited us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1418 Half of the floor is allocated to the educational aspect and the other half is the actual physical radio station.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1419 COMMISSIONER del VAL: To date, between the time of renewal on September 1, 2004 and now, there has not been any graduate yet from that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1420 MR. CAPOZZOLO: No.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1421 COMMISSIONER del VAL: I think those are my questions; thank you very much.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1422 Thank you, Madam Chair.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1423 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1424 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have a few little clean‑up questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1425 So since there have been no students from, as my colleague said, September 2004 to now, and presumably until January 2007, you are in non‑compliance right now.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1426 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Right now, I believe that we are in compliance ‑‑ right now, yes. We are associated with a school, and we are waiting for our first or next intake.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1427 THE CHAIRPERSON: Effective July of this year when you got approval from the Government of Manitoba ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1428 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1429 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑‑ you consider that you are in compliance.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1430 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1431 THE CHAIRPERSON: Even though there are no students doing any of the programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1432 MR. CAPOZZOLO: One follows the other, doesn't it? I can't have students do my programming until I get some students.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1433 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, if there are no students doing any programming, are you a campus station?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1434 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, we are. I do believe we are.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1435 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your assertion is because of this agreement with Robertson. Is that right?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1436 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1437 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wanted to go into that agreement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1438 You filed the agreement, you claim, in confidence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1439 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1440 THE CHAIRPERSON: Clearly you know our rules on confidentiality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1441 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1442 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have seen the relevant circular, I am sure, Circular 429. The onus is on you to show that you have an agreement.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1443 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1444 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you must seek it. We can't see anything that isn't on the public file.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1445 So number one, you must provide us with your reasons for confidentiality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1446 Number two, you must tell us which portions of the agreement are subject to that confidentiality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1447 We will make a ruling whether or not it goes on the file and which portions of the agreement go on the file.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1448 You will be informed in advance whether or not we have accepted your argument as to confidentiality. You will be entitled to withdraw the whole agreement should we not accept your request for confidentiality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1449 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Madam Chair, if it would simplify the process, the confidentiality is not a supreme issue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1450 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you are withdrawing your claim to confidentiality?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1451 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I thought it was a simple process; I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1452 Yes, I will withdraw it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1453 THE CHAIRPERSON: You will withdraw your claim for confidentiality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1454 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1455 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1456 The other thing you were talking about is that your curriculum had to be approved by the Board of Education.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1457 Could you file that approval with us within ten days of this hearing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1458 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1459 THE CHAIRPERSON: So I have your undertaking?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1460 I do? You have to say yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1461 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I'm sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1462 THE CHAIRPERSON: I have your undertaking? You have to say yes for the record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1463 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, you do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1464 THE CHAIRPERSON: In your renewal, you referred to an agreement with Winnipeg Technical College, dated October 23, 2003: affiliation agreement finalized with post secondary institute, Winnipeg Technical College, October 23, 2003.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1465 You will file a copy of that within ten days of this hearing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1466 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1467 THE CHAIRPERSON: You undertake to do so?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1468 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I undertake to do so.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1469 THE CHAIRPERSON: Commissioner del Val went through very well the issue of formal education. However, I was left at the end wondering what you believe formal education now consists of. And what are you doing now?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1470 MR. CAPOZZOLO: With regard to formal education, to be honest, I don't have a very clear‑cut idea what that is. I researched what educational programming is to the rest of the world and try to deliver similar.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1471 These would be educational subjects, geologists, naturalists, discussions about the environment, that type of thing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1472 THE CHAIRPERSON: So you bring in people to talk about those issues. Is that it?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1473 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1474 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where are they placed during the day?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1475 MR. CAPOZZOLO: In the morning show.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1476 THE CHAIRPERSON: I forget, you have three hours in the morning show. So it is part of that. Is that the idea?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1477 MR. CAPOZZOLO: It is actually four hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1478 THE CHAIRPERSON: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1479 Can you also provide us with a copy of the agreement between Harmony and the Winnipeg Broadcast College; in other words, the numbered company?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1480 MR. CAPOZZOLO: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1481 THE CHAIRPERSON: The arrangements between those.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1482 You will do that within ten days from the hearing?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1483 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1484 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1485 You were to provide the numbered company incorporating documents, directors and officers. Again there was no timing in that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1486 You will do that within ten days?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1487 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1488 THE CHAIRPERSON: I wanted to get into Alternative programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1489 What constitutes Alternative programming clearly would be category 3 music, because everybody likes category 2, the formal education, the news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1490 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1491 THE CHAIRPERSON: And of course the music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1492 Do you honestly think with a duplication rate of 20 to 25 percent with the Standard stations that that is Alternative?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1493 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Once again, I believe if we are training students to go out and work in the commercial radio environment, there are rules and regulations in every commercial radio station. Some of the reasons why I was out of compliance was because the individuals or the students or volunteers who had previous college radio experience ‑‑ and substantial for some of them ‑‑ they were dropping Canadian music. They were dropping category 3 music.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1494 That is part of what is part of the commercial radio environment. You have to follow format. Commercial radio is about formatted radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1495 THE CHAIRPERSON: But you are not a commercial radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1496 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I am not.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1497 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are a campus instructional radio.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1498 MR. CAPOZZOLO: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1499 THE CHAIRPERSON: You are supposed to have an Alternative format.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1500 My question was: Do you honestly believe with an overlap of 20 to 25 percent with an existing station in the market that that constitutes Alternative programming under the policy?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1501 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Do I personally believe that? Yes, I do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1502 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1503 Commissioner Williams.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1504 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Good morning, Mr. Capozzolo and counsel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1505 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Good morning.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1506 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: You stated earlier this morning that you have 30 years' experience as a broadcaster.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1507 What roles did you perform during this long career in the broadcasting industry?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1508 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I have been an on‑air person. I have been a music director. I have been a program director. I have been an operations manager and I have done commercial writing along the way. I have worked in the promotions department. Just about everything there is to do in a radio station, I have done it somewhere along the line.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1509 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: How would you reconcile that vast experience that you have just outlined with the comment from your lawyer that these errors were due to business inexperience?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1510 MR. CAPOZZOLO: These were the people that were working with me.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1511 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: People that you were training?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1512 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1513 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: In your many years in the broadcasting industry you must have come across the concept of maintaining logger tapes before?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1514 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes, I have.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1515 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Since these non‑compliance issues, that have been covered well earlier this morning by my colleagues and your admission that there is not a doubt that you were not in compliance, you state that you are now compliant or have been compliant since July.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1516 Since these ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 1517 MR. CAPOZZOLO: No. I believe I was in compliance since February.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1518 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Since February?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1519 MR. CAPOZZOLO: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1520 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: All right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1521 Since these occurrences, what have you done to ensure that logger tapes are maintained and will be available to furnish to the Commission upon request?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1522 MR. CAPOZZOLO: The fact of the matter is the logger tapes were always there. I do have the logger tapes today. The fact of the matter is I had to file accompanying paper work, and I just didn't have the ‑‑ excuse me.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 1523 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I guess you are one of the few that didn't turn your Blackberry off.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1524 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I turned it off, but I turned it on during the break. I will just turn it off again.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1525 I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1526 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Tell me what your process is now. You said you had the logger tapes available.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1527 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I had the logger tapes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1528 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: Have you made any changes since these occurrences?
LISTNUM 1 \l 1529 MR. CAPOZZOLO: I have made changes. I have made changes to the way we do things. I have instituted voice tracking, which will eliminate people dropping music that shouldn't be dropped.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1530 I have instituted programming into the on‑air system that allows us to track news and spoken word without having to physically sit there and listen to a week's worth of programming to come up with these songs and times of how much we spend talking.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1531 The fact of the matter is with regard to the February logger tapes, I received a letter on February 6th saying that I was in fact out of compliance. That letter for some reason I thought might have been an error, and I had hoped that at some time along the way we could talk about it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1532 Basically on February 6th I was told I was out of compliance, and then it asked me to provide logger tapes previous to that date.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1533 I do in fact have those logger tapes today. They are on disc and available to the Commission, if you would wish.
LISTNUM 1 \l 1534 COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS: I will ask my colleague, Commissioner Cram, to deal with the issues from the past. I am more interested in getting your information on what is happening from today forward or from the time you became compliant forward and policies and procedures and methods that you have in place to assure us that you in fact have the ability to be compliant in the future.