TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                          SUBJECT:

Proceeding to establish a national do not call list

framework and to review the telemarketing rules /

Instance visant à établir le cadre de la liste nationale

de numéros de téléphone exclus et à examiner

les règles de télémarketing

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage              140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

May 3, 2006                           Le 3 mai 2006

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

    Proceeding to establish a national do not call list

     framework and to review the telemarketing rules /

  Instance visant à établir le cadre de la liste nationale

        de numéros de téléphone exclus et à examiner

                les règles de télémarketing

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Richard French                    Chairperson / Président

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Barbara Cram                      Commissioner / Conseillère

Rita Cugini                       Commissioner / Conseillère

Stuart Langford                   Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Madeleine Bisson                  Secretary / Secrétaire

Stephen Millington                Legal Counsel /

Conseiller juridique

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage          140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

May 3, 2006                       Le 3 mai 2006

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

Presentation by Marketing Research and            342 / 2275

  Intelligence Association

    Questions by the Commission                   376 / 2507

Presentation by Contact NB                        376 / 2514

    Questions by the Commission                   382 / 2547

Presentation by the Consumers Association         424 / 2823

  of Canada (presented by PIAC)

    Questions by the Commission                   439 / 2903

Présentation par le Mouvement des                 476 / 3190

  caisses Desjardins

    Questions by the Commission                   486 / 3242

Presentation by RESP Dealers Association of Canada 514 / 3404

    Questions by the Commission                   520 / 3437

Presentation by the Canadian Life and Health      561 / 3756

  Insurance Association

    Questions by the Commission                   568 / 3794

Presentation by the Canadian Marketing Association 596 / 4002

    Questions by the Commission                   604 / 4034

Presentation by Mark Obermeyer                    661 / 4452

    Questions by the Commission                   669 / 4491

                  Ottawa, Ontario / Ottawa, (Ontario)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday, May 3, 2006 at 0900 /

    L'audience reprend le mercredi, 3 mai 2006 à 0900

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 22702270             THE CHAIRMAN:  Order, please.  À l'ordre, s'il vous plaît.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12271             Welcome to this second day of hearing on the telemarketing issue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12272             Madame la secrétaire.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12273             LA SECRÉTAIRE:  Merci, monsieur le président.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12274             Our first group today will be Marketing Research and Intelligence Association.  I would like to introduce Mr. Brendan Wycks who will introduce his colleagues.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12275             MR. WYCKS:  Thank you Commissioners and members of the CRTC for the opportunity to speak today at this public consultation and good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12276             My name is Brendan Wycks and I am Executive Director or the Chief Staff Executive of the Marketing Research and Intelligence Association, MRIA, and I would now like to introduce to you my two colleagues.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12277             To my immediate left is Mr. Barry Watson who is the President Elect of our Association and to his left is Mr. Alain Choinière, the chair of our Government Relations Committee.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12278             M. CHOINIÈRE:  Bonjour.  Il me fait plaisir, au nom de l'Association de la recherche et de l'intelligence marketing, de prendre la parole aujourd'hui.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12279             Nous vous remercions beaucoup de l'opportunité de prendre la parole aujourd'hui et il nous fera plaisir de répondre à toutes vos questions tant en français qu'en anglais.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12280             MR. WYCKS:  The Marketing Research and Intelligence Association, the voice of the market and survey research industry in Canada is pleased to be a part of these proceedings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12281             MRIA is a Canadian not for profit association representing all sectors of the survey research industry.  Among other initiatives, our organization is responsible for certifying both individual research practitioners and research companies in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12282             Our members include over 1,700 individual research professionals and over 200 corporate members, our corporate members being comprised of small to large research agencies and many buyers of research services such as financial institutions, major retailers, insurance companies, telecommunications firms and manufacturers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12283             And with that as introduction, I would now call on Barry Watson, our President Elect, who will present our brief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12284             MR. WATSON:  One of the major pillars of MRIA's mandate is to protect the good relationship that exists between survey researchers and the general public.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12285             For the most part, this revolves around ensuring that the activities of the research industry do not unreasonably infringe on an individual's right to privacy.  As such, MRIA applauds the government's efforts to create privacy and consumer rights in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12286             We believe the creation of a national do not call list will go a long way toward meeting that goal.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12287             MRIA was an active participant in the consultations that led to the passage of Bill C‑37.  Legislators agreed to exempt survey research calls because they acknowledged that there are two key characteristics that define survey research and differentiate our work from that of the telemarketing industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12288             First, legitimate survey researchers never attempt to sell anything.  In fact, solicitation violates the industry's rigorous code of conduct and ethical practices.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12289             And second, survey research gives Canadians an opportunity to voice their opinions and to have influence on important issues in public policy, products and services, overall serving a valuable societal role.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12290             Survey researchers currently enjoy a good relationship with the public because Canadians are keenly aware of the impact that their opinions could have when collected through survey research.  And they are willing to share their views with researchers because they trust the industry to respect privacy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12291             Clearly, the inclusion of survey research calls within the scope of the do not call list framework would have severely impeded survey research.  Statistical reliability is essential to good research, which is in turn essential to good decision making.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12292             Any such limitations were deemed by Legislators as well as regulators in previous CRTC decisions to be a disservice to Canadians.  U.S. regulators had previously reached the same conclusion as Canadian Legislators where survey research is also excluded.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12293             In fact, a number of important lessons can be learned from the experience in implementing a do not call list in the U.S.  In the U.S. the National do not call registry has been plagued since it was introduced by problems related to poor communication specifically about what's covered and what's not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12294             We understand that in many instances registrants to the do not call list did not clearly understand the scope of the calling restrictions and were not aware of exemptions.  This led to confusion and frustration when they continued to receive calls from exempted parties such as survey researchers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12295             In this connection, the key point we would like to leave you with today is that a comprehensive communications plan is required to educate Canadians about the registry and to make clear just what is covered and what is not and in effect, to include messaging that explains the parameters of what should be more accurately called "The telemarketing do not call list".

LISTNUM 1 \l 12296             A robust communications and awareness program will be instrumental in the smooth implementation of the do not call list as well as in reducing unwarranted complaints of violations by exempted parties.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12297             The points that we are stressing through our participation in the CRTC's operations working group are as follows:

LISTNUM 1 \l 12298             First, a robust communications and awareness program will be critical to both managing public expectations with respect to the registry and to managing public inquiries and complaints once it is operational.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12299             The U.S. do not call registry receives over 90,000 complaints a month; 15,000 of these are deemed to be incomplete or unfounded and a full 15 per cent of the complaints are unfounded and many stem from consumer confusion about the system, particularly with respect to what types of calls are covered.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12300             New registrants with the Canadian Registry should be advised immediately, in our view, upon registration as to its scope, including the list of exempted calls.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12301             We would also like to speak briefly about two questions outlined in the Public Notice 2006‑4.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12302             With respect to paragraph 48 of the Public Notice, MRIA recommends that the do not call list rules be applied to telemarketers making the calls as well as to the companies on whose behalf telemarketers are engaged.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12303             MRIA also strongly recommends that the do not call list should apply to voice casting calls.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12304             These two simple actions would serve to create a stronger, more coherent telemarketing do not all list and go a long way towards limiting what has become an increasingly prominent irritant for consumers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12305             In closing, we want to stress that the market survey and public opinion research industry regards Canadians who respond surveys as their partners.  We believe that if that partnership is to continue to thrive, our industry and our association will have to place increasing emphasis on the treatment and rights of respondents as we go forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12306             Therefore, as an important new initiative, we expect to introduce later this year a respondent Bill of Rights.  This will be a major addition to our self‑regulatory and professional standards program which includes the Canadian Survey Registration system which monitors member research projects being conducted across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12307             The system performs an important service by providing the public with a toll free number to confirm the legitimacy of a given research survey and to ensure that any personal information is being collected and used for legitimate purposes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12308             MRIA looks forward to continuing to work with the CRTC to provide input and assistance towards a smooth implementation of the do not call list in Canada and, in this regard we intend to align our industries communications programs to support the CRTC in these efforts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12309             Thank you again for the opportunity of speaking to you this morning and for considering our views on this topic, which is of great importance to our industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12310             THE CHAIRMAN:  Thank you very much, Mr. Watson for that very clear and concise presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12311             Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12312             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  Mr. Wycks, Mr. Watson, Mr. Choinière, I wanted to talk initially about your organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12313             There are 1,600 members you say.  Are they all Canadian or operate in Canada and in the States?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12314             MR. WYCKS:  The vast vast majority are Canadians operating in Canada.  We do have a small handful of members that are outside the borders of our country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12315             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And when you are doing the surveys, do you conduct surveys on wire line only or do you phone wireless numbers when you do a survey?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12316             MR. WATSON:  I think by far the majority or almost all of the calls would be ‑‑ calls by telephone would be with wire line.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12317             There may be some special surveys where wireless would be used.  For example, possibly a customer satisfaction study with customers of cell phone services where there had been a pre‑arrangement to do that, but we would not routinely phone cell phone customers as part of our regular surveys, no.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12318             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, how would you know ‑‑ I guess you would know that they were wireless because they have different prefix numbers; is that it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12319             MR. WATSON:  Yes.  Most of the dialling would be done based on data basis that would be assembled from land line phones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12320             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And I guess when the numbered portability comes in you are going to have a problem?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12321             MR. WATSON:  These are all challenges for our industry.  We are thinking about ways to deal with these as they emerge, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12322             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, the point would be though that you actually avoid phoning wireless people, wireless subscribers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12323             MR. WATSON:  As a general rule, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12324             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Uh‑huh!  And there has got to be the odd person who gets pretty ticked about being phoned about a survey.  Do your people normally have internal do not call lists?  I know it affects the validity that you are worried about ‑‑ I know that, but I am not sure I would like to be a surveyor, you know, phoning somebody who is fairly irritable about this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12325             MR. WATSON:  We do occasionally get such a call and I think it is generally the practice among our members that when someone complains and asks that they not be called again, that indeed a note is made and that person is not called again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12326             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  If I may add.  The land that we are looking at in that direction is that when people ask not to be called, each company has their do not call list, but on top of that we feel that once the telemarketing do not call list is in place, people will not be annoyed as much as they are right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12327             The number of calls will go down dramatically for those who choose not to be called and we feel this is going to be a plus for our industry where when we call, they see that we are serious in getting their opinion and no longer selling.  I think the participation rate will go up.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12328             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And do you do surveys by e‑mails?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12329             MR. WATSON:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12330             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you find them statistically valid?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12331             MR. WATSON:  It depends on the purpose.  There are many sampling challenges when surveys are being done on the internet and then some situations it works better than others, but these are areas where we are developing standards to improve the quality as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12332             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you see that as increasing in the future?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12333             MR. WATSON:  Yes.  In our national surveys of our members we see that the proportion of work that's done on the internet is increasing each year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12334             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Uh‑huh!  What are you doing to educate your members about their obligations under telemarketing rules?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12335             MR. WATSON:  We have a very comprehensive set of standards and best practices.  These are practices which are included as part of our education program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12336             So, for example, there is a program or a course on standards and privacy and ethics which all members who are looking to earn our individual certification must take that course.  And also, elements of that program are part of the audit and certification program that we have for our corporate members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12337             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  May I add also that to be a member, to be accepted as a member, they have to sign that they will abide by the rules of conduct, all members?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12338             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you said you're self‑regulatory.  So, let's say your best practices said you can only survey between, I don't know, 0900 in the morning and 0900 at night and if there was a constant breech of that, do you have a continuum of punishments?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12339             MR. WATSON:  Yes.  We have a disciplinary process.  When a complaint is received, there is a ‑‑ it's investigated, a panel can be convened to review it and then, there are... there are a stage of disciplinary actions ultimately being excluded from the industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12340             M. CHOINIÈRE:  There are two types of members.  Membership is individuals and, as well companies.  Companies have to sign and abide by a set of rules and there are various regulatory procedures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12341             For individual members it's the same thing.  There are as well under one of the committees that handles all complaints.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12342             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, you wouldn't object to us imposing limitations on time of day calling in the telemarketing rules, to which you would be subject?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12343             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  Well, we are not in the telemarketing business.  We are in the research business and, as such ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12344             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, your position would be that any rules we would make for telemarketing such as time of day, you would not be subject to them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12345             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  I think we have been excluded in the Legislation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12346             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  From the rules?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12347             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12348             THE CHAIRMAN:  It's not clear that that's the case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12349             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You have been excluded from being required to have a do not call list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12350             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  Uh‑huh!

LISTNUM 1 \l 12351             MR. WYCKS:  But through several prior CRTC decisions, we have been excluded from the telemarketing framework.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12352             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, are you asking that that happen again?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12353             MR. WYCKS:  We believe that it is a legitimate exclusion based on the industries work and the societal value that we bring.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12354             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So, you would object to us imposing restrictions on time of day when you could conduct a survey?  Like these are the kind of rules we are talking about, that you would not conduct a survey at midnight in Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12355             THE CHAIRMAN:  Especially in Saskatchewan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12356             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Listen; I love surveys.  I answer everyone, but ‑‑ I'm outside the demographic, that's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12357             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  I think that the position we have had from the start is that if we are excluded from the do not call list and, by fact, in the past all decisions have been that we be excluded from telemarketing rules, if these are rules that are to apply to telemarketing, we would like to be excluded for sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12358             I am not talking specifically about time of day, but some of the rules are ‑‑ that would apply to telemarketing we don't feel that we should be included in those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12359             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  Time of day you wouldn't have a problem with?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12360             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  Not necessarily.  I mean, we do have best practice.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12361             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you wouldn't have a problem with the requirement that you provide identification at the first of the call, who is calling?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12362             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  No.  We do that already.  All of our members have a set of rules.  The time of day, as long as it's ‑‑ we have not had any problems in the past in terms of setting hours ourselves and it is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12363             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What are the hours that you set?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12364             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  We are reviewing it right now, but I think it's nine o'clock at night.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12365             MR. WATSON:  Both of these are recommended practices.  For example, that there be a clear identification of the member that is a required part of our standards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12366             We have recommendations with respect to the length of the interview and recommendations with respect to calling times and from my familiarity with the practice of certainly the larger companies, these are quite rigidly followed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12367             There are some ‑‑ there would be some problems with making it absolute because there would be some circumstances when it might be necessary or appropriate or not problematic to call late.  You know, we deal with all sorts of population and not all Canadians, you know, work nine to five jobs, for example, and so, you know, sometimes its necessary to reach them later and we might even have made a pre‑arrangement to reach them later.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12368             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And you would probably get the 15, 16 year olds at two in the morning and there would be no problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12369             So ‑‑ and you, habitually, I would assume, and tell me if it's a requirement or a best practice, you would have the number.  You don't block the number, the phone number ID on your ‑‑‑ when you do the surveys?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12370             MR. WATSON:  We do not have a particular recommendation with respect to that.  I think the general practice though is that companies display their name, partly because you know, most of the companies have a certain level of brand recognition and if it says, you know, a certain research company, then the caller knows that this isn't a telemarketing call.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12371             I think in the experiments that we have done, showing the name actually elicits more co‑operation than if you block the name.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12372             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do you on request provide another number if I want to find out that you are legitimate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12373             MR. WATSON:  Yes, absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12374             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  It seems like this, the 1‑800 number, is a common one in a normal call.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12375             MR. WATSON:  In practice I think there are two responses that are given.  Let's say, for example, an interviewer has phoned a household and the respondent is a little bit uneasy about whether this is legitimate.  I find the first response on the part of the respondent is to say:  "Can I speak to your supervisor."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12376             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12377             MR. WATSON:  So there is immediately a transfer.  This is usually a person who has more knowledge of the situation, is more experienced.  They explain the situation and the respondent is satisfied.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12378             If they are not satisfied with that, then the survey registration system is explained to them and they are given the 1‑800 number and they can make a call to that number to verify the survey.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12379             We provide them with the registration number for the particular survey that we were executing so that they can readily identify it when they call the survey registration centre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12380             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If you want to be exempted from the telemarketing rules, I guess I need to know what is the continuum of penalties that you give for a breach of your requirements ‑‑ not the best practices but your requirements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12381             MR. WATSON:  Could I suggest that we provide you with the documentation on that, which would go through it in some detail?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12382             These are all processes which are under some review.  If it was appropriate to make some enhancement to that, I think we would certainly be quite willing to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12383             In fact, this is something which is being reviewed right now, in that there are a number of initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12384             One initiative that is being proposed by the world association that deals with these issues wanting to have more visible policing and enforcement, that would involve a more public presentation when in fact someone violated one of the rules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12385             So we are certainly open to looking at enhancements to that process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12386             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Inevitably I would ask that you would file both the requirements and the best practice, the recommendations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12387             What are the consequences of breach of a best practice or suggestion?  Nothing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12388             MR. WATSON:  There are two things that happen.  This is reviewed by a number of peers who are aware of some violation.  It is brought to the attention of the member and it is recommended that the process be corrected.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12389             This is also done when our auditor reviews the individual company's practices.  This is a process where our auditor, which is done by Deloitte, goes through files in detail within the research company, interviews the senior staff responsible for standards in lengthy questioning on how certain standards are met.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12390             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So what are the consequences?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12391             MR. WATSON:  The consequences are a report which indicates what needs to be improved.  There is no particular penalty or exclusion for best practice issues, though.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12392             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do any of your members use predictive dialling devices?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12393             MR. WATSON:  I expect they do.  I think what is more common is power diallers rather than predictive diallers.  But I am not sure of the statistics on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12394             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So all I am worried about is dead air, abandonment.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12395             Do you have any standards for those who do use predictive dialling on an abandonment rate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12396             MR. WATSON:  We don't have one but it would certainly be something that we would be happy to include in our standards.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12397             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Do you have any position on ADADs?  You don't use them, ADADs ‑‑ automated dialling announcement devices?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12398             MR. WATSON:  No.  I don't think that is commonly used by our members.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12399             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I take it, as you do not have to access the "do not call" issue, you wouldn't have a position on fee structures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12400             Both times, in your written submission initially and in this submission, you use the word "strongly" recommend that the "do not call" lists apply to voicecasting calls.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12401             Why "strongly"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12402             MR. WYCKS:  I think it's just an adjective for emphasis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12403             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So it's not that it is annoying to you guys or there is something that really is ‑‑ now you have a young gentleman there.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12404             Maybe you can tell us why it is "strongly".

LISTNUM 1 \l 12405             MR. JODOIN:  We feel that any calls that are considered an intrusion or a nuisance to the general public tend to affect our industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12406             The calls that are considered a nuisance tend to impact our industry.  We have been found not be considered a nuisance, either in the complaints that we receive or in CRTC proceedings.  But the general public sometimes doesn't necessarily differentiate calls to the home.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12407             So any type of nuisance calls tends to add up and it becomes a respondent fatigue for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12408             So if we see a coherent telemarketing  "do not call" list, we are strongly in favour of that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12409             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Mr. Wycks?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12410             MR. WYCKS:  Allow me to introduce Greg Jodoin, who is MRIA's government relations consultant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12411             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12412             I know you are involved in CISC‑2, the second CISC working group.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12413             I guess my question is ‑‑ and I understand, and I think it is certainly to your advantage, that we would have a robust communication plan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12414             The question in my mind, though, comes down to who is going to pay for it.  How much would your members be willing to contribute to the cause?  It is certainly going to help you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12415             That is going to be an issue, isn't it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12416             Mr. Jodoin, do you want to say something?  You can say something, you know.  You don't have to whisper.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12417             MR. WATSON:  Brendan is going to answer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12418             MR. WYCKS:  It was our sort of understanding and belief that a robust communications program would be a necessary element in what the CRTC would roll out, so be there by necessity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12419             We just wanted to emphasize how critical we felt it was and also the fact that we will support it and sort of dovetail with it in our own communications programs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12420             That is the approach that we had in mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12421             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you are planning on your members contributing by having a communications plan sort of individually, I guess.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12422             MR. WYCKS:  As an association, which our members would be kind of the grassroots roll‑out component of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12423             MR. WATSON:  Our organization is not one which has a large ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12424             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  I know the organization doesn't have any, but my question, though, is:  It is clearly to your advantage to have this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12425             One of these days it is going to come down to money and how much the CRTC can or will afford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12426             What do you think about the idea from PIAC that we would go back to the 2004‑35 decision and have notes in the bills?  I think it was something like that.  We would require that the telephone companies put inserts in their bills.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12427             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  This will be part of our communication program.  We do have a plan that is being presently rolled out and in the coming year we will have a specific communication program which will include various utilities putting information in there so the public understands how important their opinion is and why the research industry is so important to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12428             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.  I'm glad you value my opinion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12429             Thank you, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12430             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12431             Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12432             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  I won't try to drag this out.  You have been very kind and very generous with your time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12433             I do have a question really of just straight information.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12434             You are exempt.  There is no question about that.  But I am a bit curious about the desire for an exemption in the sense of what you do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12435             I'm not trying to roll back time here.  It is done.  But there is an aspect to it that I just don't quite understand, and it's probably because I'm just not a surveyor.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12436             If you are doing a survey ‑‑ we get a lot of surveys here, particularly on the broadcasting side.  People who are applying for radio licences, television licences, they survey the communities and they try to find out what people want and what formats in radio they are particularly attracted to.  Then they bring these surveys to us as empirical data that they are onto the right kind of service here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12437             Of course, normally we get something like 300 or 500 people surveyed in an average size city.  They may choose a demographic to survey.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12438             I have seen of the normal breakdown, "strongly agrees", "agrees", "disagrees", "strongly disagrees", "no opinion".  But I have never seen a "hang‑up" column or a "do not call me" column or an "I don't want to talk to you" column in any of these surveys.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12439             So what do you do when you are calling?  You pick your 300 random numbers or your 500 random numbers and someone says: Put me on a "do not call" list.  I don't care whether you have one or not.  Or they are just annoyed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12440             How do you quantify those in a survey?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12441             MR. WATSON:  Actually, we have quite a comprehensive set of specifications for how our members need to classify every response they get on the telephone.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12442             So for every number dialled, they need to account for an outcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12443             When you think of your 300 or 400 completed interviews that come to you as some evidence, that is the number of completed interviews.  But behind that there may be many numbers that were out of service, numbers where the interview could not be completed because there was a language barrier and this might have only been interviewed in English and French and maybe one other language and it couldn't be completed.  There would be some where you only reached an answering machine and were never able to reach the person.  And some, of course, where people say no, I don't agree to complete the survey and I don't want to be called again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12444             So all of these are accounted for and in fact are used to calculate various statistics that we used to reflect on how representative that particular survey is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12445             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  That part interests me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12446             So there is some value to any of these outcomes, whether they are a hang‑up, an answering machine, a never call me again, I hate you, whatever, in polite or rude terms.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12447             What is the value?  How do you weigh the value of those sorts of responses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12448             MR. WATSON:  We use them for two general purposes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12449             One is to assess the statistical reliability of the interviews that we got.  So we will want to know of those people that we did not reach, is there reason to believe that they are different in character than the people that we did interview?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12450             For example, were they more in one part of the country than the other?  Are they individuals more of one age category than the other?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12451             We will look at those sorts of things.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12452             The other reason that we look at that information is that we want to maximize the level of co‑operation.  So if we are not reaching a household successfully, we want to know why not and whether there is something that we might do that would improve that situation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12453             I gave the example of the language barrier.  If we carry out a survey in a particular area and a very large proportion of the interviews could not be completed because of a language barrier, then there would be a good reason to speak with that client and say perhaps we should translate it into additional languages and complete it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12454             It is also an indication of some technological interviews.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12455             For example, if we are reaching answering machines or something of that sort, in many cases where we get no response at all, sometimes that is dialling into dead exchanges.  And we need to look at that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12456             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So if I may ‑‑ and we are not going back in time.  Parliament has spoken.  I don't want to alarm anyone here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12457             But if I may, could I focus just on people who say "never call me; I don't want to be called; leave me alone" ‑‑ for whatever reason.  We don't know.  They might have been scared by a survey when they were children or something.  Who knows?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12458             What value are they to your companies?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12459             I can understand the language example you gave or perhaps a timing element in some exchange or whatever value of some of the lists you are getting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12460             But what value is it to you to take the chance of keeping on getting these sorts of responses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12461             MR. WATSON:  Statistically, it is critical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12462             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It is.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12463             MR. WATSON:  You can't tell in advance which phone number is going to be someone who may not be willing to participate in this particular study.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12464             What we also know is that there are many reasons for not agreeing to participate.  It might be that "I just don't want to be bothered at all for any reason whatsoever".  I think that is quite a minority of situations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12465             The most frequent one is "this just isn't a convenient time".  So we find that if we can have a couple of seconds with the person and find out is there a better time to call, what can we do to make it more co‑operative for you, then we can arrange the call at another time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12466             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  May I answer this?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12467             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12468             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  One of the points that we have been looking at very strongly is that when there is a "do not call" requirement, one person chooses for the whole household.  Subjects may be very different.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12469             If I need to speak to a 16‑year‑old or a 25‑year‑old, it is going to be very different.  One person in the household may decide that they don't want to answer surveys, but when they take that decision it should not imply that everybody else in the household will not be called and will not give their opinion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12470             The second element is I just want to step one step back on the reporting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12471             In most instances ‑‑ and in all instances very soon ‑‑ companies will give the administrative report with a calculation of the response rate at the beginning of a report or in an appendix.  So we do know if the response rate is higher or lower.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12472             Our feeling is with the "do not call" list, our response rates will go up and hence give a better quality survey.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12473             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  This is what got me started because either you or one of your colleagues made this comment earlier this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12474             Wouldn't it be to your advantage to have your own internal "do not call" lists so that you simply ‑‑ I know you don't want to be on the national one because of all these reasons: you might be able to talk people around and specify.  You have been very clear on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12475             In the sense of that small but determined group who never wish to speak to you ever, as long as they live, wouldn't it be to your advantage simply not to have these numbers and not to be burdened with having to keep these statistics over and over?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12476             Wouldn't it be to your advantage just to get rid of them?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12477             I can't see any advantage to you phoning them.  And that's why I am missing it.  If there is an advantage, let me know.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12478             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  There are a few.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12479             Financially, it would be an advantage; statistically, it would not be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12480             As I mentioned, we are excluding everybody in that household because one person has chosen not to be called.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12481             Most companies ‑‑ and I would say probably all companies who are members in the MRIA ‑‑ do have their own "do not call" list.  But it is not the interviewer that decides.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12482             In my company it is my vice‑president, one of my vice‑presidents, that decides yes, he is going to go on the "do not call" list.  Sometimes it is the subject.  They don't want to answer a survey for something that is not interesting to them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12483             When it comes to health, for instance, when we conduct work for Health Canada and we say at the beginning that it is for Health Canada, the participation rate is much higher, and very, very few people ask not to be called.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12484             So the subject is an item.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12485             I think it is a very wide problematic, really.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12486             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So you are doing everything from sort of brands of instant coffee right through to fundamental health issues, and you feel people should be able to choose.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12487             MR. CHOINIÈRE:  Yes.  And people should also be told that their opinion is very important, both in general public policy and in approving products.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12488             If they don't give their personal opinion on it, their neighbour, which does not necessarily have the same opinion, will give his opinion.  Therefore, it is a statement of choice really.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12489             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12490             I just want to narrow it down once last time, if you don't mind.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12491             I live alone ‑‑ I don't but this is hypothetical.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12492             I live alone.  There is no one else in my household.  One of your members phones and I say:  "Look, I live alone.  I don't ever want to be bothered by any of your questions ever again as long as I live."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12493             And this goes to your vice‑president. What is your betting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12494             MR. CHOINIERE:  You will have put them on the "do not call" list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12495             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  So it would be an advantage not to call this curmudgeonly old character one more time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12496             MR. CHOINIERE:  Well, maybe we will call two years down the road.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12497             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  To see whether I have come around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12498             MR. CHOINIERE:  Yes.  Or if you have read an article on how important it is to have your ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12499             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  It's gone.  Why didn't you push me harder?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12500             That helps me very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12501             So you probably will keep ‑‑ am I safe in assuming that all of your members probably will keep some form of "do not call" list, but that they will be judiciously culled by the pros, the experts, before names are put on it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12502             MR. CHOINIERE:  I can't say for sure, but that is certainly the practice right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12503             COMMISSIONER LANGFORD:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12504             Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12505             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12506             Commissioner Cram.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12507             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  You would be filing those best practices and recommendations, say, within ten days or so?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12508             MR. WATSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12509             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12510             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for your presence and advice.  We are aware of the importance of your industry.  We appreciate your collaboration with our various working groups, and we look forward to continuing that collaboration.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12511             MR. CHOINIERE:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12512             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12513             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chair.  We will now proceed with a presentation from Contact NB, Mr. Rick DesBrisay.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 12514             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please proceed, Mr. DesBrisay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12515             MR. DesBRISAY:  Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners.  My name is Rick DesBrisay, and I am a member of the Executive Committee of the Board of Directors of Contact NB.  Contact NB is the trade association for the contact centre industry in New Brunswick.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12516             We have submitted a written presentation this morning, but I think, in the interests of time, I will simply highlight the main points of it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12517             Contact NB represents about 45 companies, who employ about 16,000 New Brunswickers in the inbound and outbound call centre industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12518             The industry in New Brunswick is, in fact, the second largest industry sector in New Brunswick, and it continues to grow.  The largest is the tourism and hospitality industry, but it is larger than forestry, larger than the fishery.  It has become a huge industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12519             The principal focus of the association is to promote the industry as a good place to work, a place to establish a career, which enables us to attract quality employees.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12520             The industry had some kind of perception of being a place where there were sweatshops and low‑paying, dead‑end jobs, but that is not the case.  People do make very important careers in the industry, and we wish to continue to play a role in that business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12521             The public image of the industry is vitally important to us as an association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12522             I should also declare that I have a business, which is called RainMaker Call Centres.  We are an outbound telemarketing firm.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12523             We have four call centres, two in New Brunswick and two in British Columbia.  We employ about 150 employees.  We call mainly into the United States, on behalf of a client in the U.S., although we do some calling in Canada.  In fact, we are DNC compliant and have systems in place to manage that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12524             I will be talking this morning about Contact NB's position, but I will certainly entertain any questions that you may have regarding my business during the question‑and‑answer period.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12525             The association has five main issues.  The first of those, and not necessarily in order of importance, is calling business‑to‑business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12526             We believe, fundamentally, that allowing businesses to put their numbers on the "do not call" list will be a restraint of trade and will make it especially difficult for emerging businesses who don't have existing clients.  Using the telephone is a very powerful way to develop new clients.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12527             Having businesses put their numbers on the list tends to be an impediment to the development, particularly of emerging businesses, but certainly the development of any business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12528             There is a danger with business numbers, in particular, that someone may put the business number on the "do not call" list unbeknownst to the company.  I suspect that there will be numerous ways of putting those numbers on the list, and there could be numbers put on the list that the company would not be aware of.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12529             Could you imagine IBM, for example, having their number on the list, put there by a receptionist who didn't want to take as many calls, or by a disgruntled employee, or by a hacker, or by a tele‑terrorist ‑‑ that is someone who really hates telemarketing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12530             If another company that had a "do not call" blocking system tried to dial IBM's number, it just wouldn't let them call IBM because the number would be on the list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12531             Business‑to‑business is a very important concern.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12532             The second concern is the cost to telemarketers to set up compliance systems.  I know from our experience at RainMaker that it costs about $25,000, at a minimum, to establish the hardware and software to allow you to mesh the CRM database, your customer database, with the "do not call" list, and it costs several thousand dollars per year to maintain it ‑‑ to keep it updated and maintain it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12533             If there are, maybe, 2 million companies in Canada who call their customers, that means that about 2 million companies will have to spend $25,000 each ‑‑ $5 billion, maybe ‑‑ to make Canadian businesses compliant with the DNC list, to manage it, and also to manage their own internal "do not call" list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12534             The third issue is:  How long will the number remain on the list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12535             I don't know where I got this number, but I am led to believe that about 14 percent of Canadians move during the year, and numbers are moved.  So, over a period of time, if a number is left on the list in perpetuity, for five years or ten years, or whatever it may be, there will be a whole lot of numbers that will be on the list that should not necessarily be on the list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12536             We need to think about how we go about doing that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12537             Furthermore, the process of putting numbers on the list needs to be managed so that only the rightful owner of that number can add that number to the list.  There needs to be some mechanism to make sure that happens.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12538             Fourthly, with regard to the cost of operating the system, we believe that it should be spread amongst all users of the list, the 2 million or so businesses across Canada that make calls to their customers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12539             Similarly, as was mentioned yesterday, we should consider charging the consumers some fee for putting their number on the list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12540             For example, people now pay their telco a monthly fee to have a non‑published number ‑‑ an unlisted number.  Why couldn't we do the same thing with the "do not call".  If you wanted to be on the "do not call" list, you would pay $2 a month, or whatever the fee might be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12541             Most importantly, and our last point, is that the public image of the industry may be damaged by this.  We believe, based on some of the testimony to the Senate committee that studied the bill, and by anecdotal evidence that we have, that 80 percent or 85 percent of the calls that are currently being received by consumers will be exempt from these regulations.  So consumers, in particular, who expect their telemarketing calls to go to zero because they are on the list are going to be shocked, perhaps angry ‑‑ "I added my name to the list and you are still calling me.  Why are you still calling me?  I don't want to be called.  I am on the list."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12542             We think that there will be a public backlash about this, because people who put their name on the list will expect the calls to stop, and they are not going to stop.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12543             There needs to be, which has been mentioned before, and which we fully support, a broad, strong education campaign to let people know that they are still going to receive calls from all of the parties that are exempt, and to expect that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12544             Granted, there will be some reduction in the calls, but maybe 80 percent or 85 percent of them will continue to be passed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12545             That is my presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12546             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Commissioner Cugini.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12547             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Good morning, Mr. DesBrisay, and thank you very much for being here.  I think you have made some very interesting points this morning, coupled with your written submission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12548             I am going to ask you some general questions about Contact NB, and then we will get into the specifics on both what you said this morning and what you filed in your written submission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12549             Just so I understand it better, Contact NB, you say, represents over 65 inbound and outbound customer contact centres.  These are strictly call centres, or do you do your own telemarketing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12550             MR. DesBRISAY:  They are strictly call centres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12551             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What is an inbound call centre?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12552             MR. DesBRISAY:  When you call your bank to inquire about an account, you are calling into the bank, and an agent receives your call and handles your inquiry.  That is an inbound centre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12553             An outbound centre is where the agent calls you to initiate the contact.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12554             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So telemarketers will contract Contact NB to place the telemarketing calls for them, through your outbound centres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12555             MR. DesBRISAY:  Contact NB is primarily represented by inbound ‑‑ the membership is primarily inbound, not outbound.  But they still call our customers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12556             Under the definition of a telemarketer, anyone that calls a customer is a telemarketer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12557             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You said this morning that you maintain a "do not call" list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12558             MR. DesBRISAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12559             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Or your members maintain a "do not call" list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12560             MR. DesBRISAY:  I said that RainMaker maintains a "do not call" list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12561             I can't speak for the Royal Bank, for instance, or Delta Hotels, or all of the other companies, as well as Air Canada, which are members of the association.  I presume they do, but I can't speak for them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12562             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  So RainMaker's "do not call" list currently ‑‑ consumers that you phone, how do they register their name on your "do not call" list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12563             MR. DesBRISAY:  They say so to our agent, and on the computer screen our agent clicks a button, "Do not call", and it gets registered in the computer database immediately.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12564             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you have a way of acknowledging for the consumer that you have placed them on your "do not call" list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12565             MR. DesBRISAY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12566             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What happens when a consumer changes his mind and wants to be de‑listed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12567             Is it the reverse process?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12568             MR. DesBRISAY:  Yes, only it requires a senior manager to remove a number from the "do not call" list.  An agent can't do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12569             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  An agent cannot do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12570             Is it always through a live person answering the phone or placing the call that receives the request to either be listed or de‑listed?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12571             MR. DesBRISAY:  No, it can come in by fax or by e‑mail.  Mainly by phone.  We have an 800 toll‑free number that they can call.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12572             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Have you received any complaints from consumers who have said, "Hey, I have been placed on your "do not call" list and I am still getting calls from you"?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12573             MR. DesBRISAY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12574             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  How soon after the request comes in are you able to remove them from the list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12575             Is it immediately?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12576             MR. DesBRISAY:  Yes, immediately.  The computer system will not dial a number that is flagged "Do not call".

LISTNUM 1 \l 12577             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you currently place a time limit on how long a consumer can be on your list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12578             MR. DesBRISAY:  No, it is in perpetuity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12579             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What is your suggestion for how long consumers should keep their name on the "do not call" list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12580             MR. DesBRISAY:  The association doesn't have an opinion on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12581             Personally, I think it should be one year, because numbers change all the time.  If you want to be on the list, you will be obliged to re‑register every year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12582             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  What if we were able to build in provisions that ensured that numbers that either were reassigned or disconnected would be automatically scrubbed from the list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12583             MR. DesBRISAY:  That would be good.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12584             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would you still maintain that a one‑year limit would be appropriate?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12585             MR. DesBRISAY:  No, it could be longer in that case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12586             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Would you have any objection to it being in perpetuity?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12587             MR. DesBRISAY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12588             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  The point is, if we were to impose a shorter time period than perpetuity, we would get into the complications of:  How does a consumer know that their registration on the "do not call" list is about to expire.  Whose responsibility would it be to remind that consumer that, "Hey, your three‑year limit is up and you have to re‑register."  And what would be the costs involved with implementing that type of renewal system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12589             MR. DesBRISAY:  I see the problem, but I just don't think ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12590             I am going to retract my earlier comment.  I don't think that numbers should be on there in perpetuity.  There should be some deadline that allows people to change their mind.  If they forget that they are on the list ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12591             Maybe people would like to receive survey ‑‑ not survey calls, but other calls from telemarketers with whom they have not had an existing business relationship in 18 months.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12592             Forever is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12593             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  A long time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12594             MR. DesBRISAY:  ‑‑ a bit too long.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12595             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Business‑to‑business.  Do you currently do any telemarketing?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12596             MR. DesBRISAY:  Yes, we do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12597             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Business‑to‑business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12598             MR. DesBRISAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12599             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  The current telemarketing rules, do you agree that they should continue to apply?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12600             MR. DesBRISAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12601             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What do you see as the major impediment to including business‑to‑business calls on the "do not call" list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12602             I take your point about emerging businesses.  You made it very strongly.  They need the opportunity to build a client base.  But do you have any other examples of what would be a major impediment?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12603             MR. DesBRISAY:  Sure.  A lot of companies, big and small, rely upon using the telephone to contact prospective customers, former customers, existing customers, and using the telephone to do that is a very powerful marketing and sales tool.  Very powerful.  It is the most cost‑effective method of marketing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12604             Businesses placing their numbers on the "do not call" list, and people using automated blocking devices, such as we do ‑‑ and I think that everyone will have to go that way, in some way ‑‑ we will just not be able to call IBM any more if their number is on the list.  You won't be able to reach them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12605             It opens up a huge problem for companies that want to contact other companies whose number is on the list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12606             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  What do you foresee being a new rule on the "do not call" list that is not currently in the telemarketing rules that would directly impact business‑to‑business?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12607             In other words, what would change for businesses?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12608             MR. DesBRISAY:  There will be a lot of businesses that we won't be able to call.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12609             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  If businesses are currently doing telemarketing to consumers, they would have to oblige by the rules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12610             MR. DesBRISAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12611             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  They would have to access the "do not call" list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12612             How much further a step is it for those businesses who do business‑to‑business telemarketing to access that same list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12613             MR. DesBRISAY:  It isn't difficult.  The problem is ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12614             Let me back up a bit.  I don't think there is any hue and cry by the business community to have their numbers on the "do not call" list.  It is residential consumers who have been driving this.  It is not the business community saying, "We need to be able to put our numbers on the list."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12615             I don't think that's happening and, frankly, I think it's a mistake that businesses were not given an exclusion and I would ‑‑ I would recommend ‑‑ I know the chairman has said otherwise, that CRTC go back to the House of Commons and ask to have businesses added to the exclusion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12616             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  I don't know if you were here yesterday for the proceedings, but there was quite a bit of discussion about family relationship exemption and I was just wondering if you had an opinion on whether that should be included or not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12617             MR. DESBRISAY:  The association doesn't have any view on that.  We didn't consider it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12618             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  One of the things that struck me in your written submission was the existing business relationship:

"Many businesses who have not previously considered themselves to be telemarketers will be forced to install DNC blocking systems."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12619             What type of businesses were you referring to in that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12620             MR. DESBRISAY:  Let me give you an example.  If you ‑‑ say you buy a car from an automobile dealer and in six months time the automobile dealer will call you to say, oh, it's time for you to come in and have the car serviced, oil changed.  That is a telemarketing call.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12621             And so if the consumer does not do business with the dealer for eighteen months and one day, they will no longer be excluded and the automobile dealer that's calling you, the consumer, to have you come in and have the oil changed will be in violation because they will be ‑‑ if you are ‑‑ if your number is on the list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12622             So that automobile dealer is going to have to have some method of checking their database to make sure that they have an existing business relationship with that customer within the eighteen months and secondly, to see whether or not they are on the do not call list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12623             So that company is going to have to have some system, and it will be a telemarketer and it's going to have to comply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12624             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you think it's the responsibility of that car dealership or the car maker to maintain a do not call list and to, you know, be responsible for the scrubbing and so on, or should it be both?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12625             MR. DESBRISAY:  I'm not sure it's ‑‑ it's whoever is originating the call.  If the car maker of General Motors is making the calls, then perhaps they should be required to comply also or be responsible, but I don't think that ‑‑ I think it's the party making the call or making the call on behalf of the party.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12626             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Because that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12627             MR. DESBRISAY:  For instance, a car dealer might hire my firm, for instance.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12628             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12629             MR. DESBRISAY:  Or someone else to make calls for them.  Call our 5,000 customers and tell them we have a special on summer reconditioning for your whatever.  And so our telemarketing firm would be responsible to comply and so would the car dealer, the customer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12630             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Well, taking your example further then, do you ‑‑ should it be the car maker, car dealer and your firm who should be responsible for maintaining the list, therefore accessing the list, therefore paying the fees to access the list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12631             MR. DESBRISAY:  I don't know.  I'd have to give some thought to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12632             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Okay.  You make a strong point this morning as well as in your written submission that a strong public awareness program should be initiated so that consumers are well aware of what is included and excluded from the do not call list rules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12633             Do you have any suggestions for us as to what form that educational process should take and who should be responsible for it?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12634             MR. DESBRISAY:  I believe it's got to be much more than just putting in a little flyer in the telephone bills.  And by the way, let's not forget that not everyone is going to get a telephone bill from their telco anymore because there is a huge wave coming, starting right now, for voice over internet phones.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12635             As a matter of fact, our company, Rainmaker, is a hundred percent voice over internet.  And so that's not going to reach everybody.  I never read those little things that are in the envelope anyway and so it needs to be a big campaign on television and newspapers and what have you and it should be paid by the government.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12636             It is the government that has put this law into effect and it is the government that has created all the exclusions and it is the government ‑‑ some branch of it is going to have to pay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12637             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  You are giving our Chairman more tasks.  Do you use voice casting?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12638             MR. DESBRISAY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12639             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Do you use ADADs?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12640             MR. DESBRISAY:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12641             COMMISSIONER CUGINI:  Thank you.  Those are all my questions.  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12642             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr. Debrisay, I have a couple of questions and I'm going to exercise my prerogative just to pursue them with you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12643             Anyone who calls a customer is a slight overstatement as to what the bill applies to, but you have given us some interesting illustrations of the problems that could arise in a practical matter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12644             Do you seriously ‑‑ are you seriously telling us today that based on your experience, two million Canadian businesses are going to have to invest $25,000 each to link their CRM software, which they may or may not have in the first place, to the DNCL list or is it possible that's somewhat overstated?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12645             MR. DESBRISAY:  Well, let's look at the definition of a telemarketer.  It's any party or company or individual that solicits, uses a telephone to solicit business.  So if a company makes telephone calls to solicit business, they are a telemarketer.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12646             THE CHAIRPERSON:  To solicit business.  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12647             MR. DESBRISAY:  Right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12648             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And in your view, what would a prudent government have done or do to reduce that burden?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12649             MR. DESBRISAY:  The burden ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12650             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The cost that you claim is going to fall on Canadian business as a result of the legislation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12651             MR. DESBRISAY:  Frankly, I don't think the government gave it that much thought, how much it was going to cost.  How is this going to be implemented by each and every telemarketer?  It's not difficult for the Royal Bank, who is calling their customers because they've got a whole battery of IT people, so they can do this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12652             But the small business, the little car dealers, the hundreds of thousands of small businesses across Canada who call their customers are going to have to have an internal do not call list and be compliant with the national list, and I don't know how that's going to be done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12653             I do know that it cost us to buy a blocker ‑‑ it's a server basically that allows you to download the list off the internet ‑‑ through the internet download the list.  It costs us $15,000 for the box, the switches.  All telephones in our offices have to be routed through the switch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12654             So you have got to go through the process of collecting all the telephone lines in your business ‑‑ that car dealer as an example, you have to take all their phone lines and put them through that blocker so they'll check against their customer database and the do not call list to make sure they're not making calls that are not compliant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12655             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And this is because you are, in fact, already in compliance with the US DNC?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12656             MR. DESBRISAY:  Well, Rainmaker is, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12657             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.  That is extremely valuable information from us in a practical sense, however, if indeed it's still your contention that all of that apparatus will be required for every one of the Canadian businesses which you estimate at two million who will be calling customers and therefore become "Telemarketers", but there's ‑‑ you don't see any obvious thing that the Commission could do or that the government should have done?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12658             MR. DESBRISAY:  Well, perhaps we could order the telcos to modify their switches to block numbers, but that doesn't ‑‑ still doesn't deal with internal do not call lists.  So the telco is not going to be able to monitor the internal list.  They might be able to monitor the national list, but not the internal list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12659             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The switch would be ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12660             MR. DESBRISAY:  There was no ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12661             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Excuse me.  The switch would have to be ‑‑ excuse me, sorry, please go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12662             MR. DESBRISAY:  Go ahead.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12663             THE CHAIRPERSON:  The switch would have to ‑‑ the teleswitch would have to recognize the source of the call and the call party?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12664             MR. DESBRISAY:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12665             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It would say these two combinations, no go.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12666             MR. DESBRISAY:  Right.  Now, that could be made to work.  I mean, I'm not a telecom.  It could be made to work, I don't know at what cost.  But, A, it doesn't deal with the internal do not call list, and, B, it doesn't deal with companies and individuals that are using voice over internet protocol telephone systems because those calls do not go through the routers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12667             And there's more and more companies and businesses moving daily to voice over internet systems.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12668             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So, in effect, you have given us some very valuable specific information about your business, the cost to which are ‑‑ after all, costs inherent in the very nature of your business and therefore they are a burden which you don't particularly enjoy, as no businessman does, to incremental costs, but one which comes to the territory, it seems to me.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12669             Whereas ‑‑ whereas ‑‑ and as for the auto maker who phones 5,000 people, well, he's put himself basically in the same area.  But the auto maker who is calling back customers and making single calls or twelve calls or a dozen calls a day by someone whose primary job is elsewhere, your point to us today, and it seems to be an important one, is that there is a potential incremental cost which is quite large and which the Commission ought, at a minimum, to be cognizant of as it goes forward and makes its rules.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12670             MR. DESBRISAY:  Certainly.  If there's some inexpensive way for all businesses who call our customers to scrub their outbound calls against the list and their internal list, let's not forget that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12671             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, for example ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12672             MR. DESBRISAY:  Then let's do it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12673             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, okay.  I mean that's a very important and interesting piece of advise and we appreciate it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12674             On business to business, I think you were here yesterday, and I had a discussion with ‑‑ I'm very embarrassed to say I don't remember the witness, but it was a discussion, the burden of which was, instead of an exclusion for business to business, which is really what you are asking us here for, and I am not going to get into ‑‑ I don't think I am going to get into the question of whether that is justified in principle, but as a matter of ‑‑ as a matter of practice one thing we could do would be to define ‑‑ to find a way of inputting in the definition of telemarketing, the definition of a violation, the notion that telemarketing for purposes of selling other than consumer goods, other than goods destined to be bought in quantities of ones and twos for use in a residence by a family or a person in his residence, other than that, that kind of telemarketing would be allowed.  I don't know if I am making any sense to you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12675             It would achieve, it seems to me, what you say you are looking for, without getting us into the question of telling ‑‑ I guess it was Mr. Hill and the CMA.  Thank you, I am sorry that ‑‑ that would allow us to ‑‑ not to get into the question of distinguishing businesses from residences when people phone up and say I want to put my number on the list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12676             It seems to me it is a lot to ask us, and I am not sure how you intend for us to do it, to say you are a business, you can't go on the list.  How would we do that?  I mean how could we do that or, more to the point, would you be more sympathetic to the notion that we try by defining what a telemarketing violation is, i.e., consumer goods only, to solving your problem in that way?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12677             MR. DESBRISAY:  The logistics of checking every company, the two million, whatever number of companies that there are in Canada to see whether or not they're telling consumer goods and whether exempt or not exempt is humungous.  Being flippant, maybe we could get the gun registry people to do that for us.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12678             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We're not allowed to talk about gun registry here.  I am ruling it out of order right away.

‑‑‑ Laughter.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12679             MR. DESBRISAY:  I am from New Brunswick, so I have to put a plug in there for them.  But I just see it as a horrendous problem.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12680             If businesses want to have their number listed, then why don't we have a special form that they have to fill out signed by an officer of the company and sent in and say that's the only way you can have your number on the ‑‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12681             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But how would the list operator know it was a business?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12682             MR. DESBRISAY:  Well, because in my perfect world a residential customer is going to have to prove that they own that number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12683             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And how would they do that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12684             MR. DESBRISAY:  Send a copy of the phone bill in.  If you're doing it over e‑mail ‑‑ I mean if you have a disgruntled employee or, my term, teleterrorist, that just hates all telemarketing, there's nothing to prevent someone from going on and putting hundreds ‑‑ thousands of numbers.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12685             You can even download them off the internet from whitepages.ca or yellowpages.ca, and someone could post thousands of numbers on the list without any control and who is going to stop that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12686             So only the owner, the rightful owner of the number should be allowed to put that number on the list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12687             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Technically the phone company owns the number, but anyway, we get the point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12688             MR. DESBRISAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12689             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And so in your mind it would be reasonable to expect the list operator to police the eligibility of the numbers which we're seeking to be placed on the do not call list?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12690             MR. DESBRISAY:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12691             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Whereas in the United States after three or four years of functioning there is no, as I understand it, absolute demonstration that there aren't hundreds of thousands of small business numbers on that database without any obvious harm it seems to me in the industry in the United States or am I wrong?  Do you have ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12692             MR. DESBRISAY:  Yes, I have anecdotal evidence from another telemarketing firm in the United States that I had some discussion with, and they tell me that they've had the case where people have put thousands of numbers on the list, and as a matter of fact, put his own number on the list, and he certainly didn't put it on the list.  Someone else did.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12693             And so they believe that thousands and thousands of numbers were added unbeknownst to the owner of the number.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12694             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And these were business numbers or residential numbers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12695             MR. DESBRISAY:  Residential numbers.  And I believe that businesses are not permitted to put ‑‑ in the U.S. not permitted to put their number on the list.  I don't know how they police that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12696             THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, I mean I think you are right because they need to be exempt, so in theory they can't go on the list.  But the question which I am asking you, which quite reasonably you can't necessarily answer definitively is I've been told that there are lots of business numbers on the list, but that no obvious damage to anyone has occurred as a result.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12697             Well, thank you very much for that.  Commissioner Cram and then Commissioner Langford.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12698             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Thank you, Mr. Debrisay.  I wanted to talk about ‑‑ is it rain ‑‑ Rainmaker?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12699             MR. DESBRISAY:  Rainmaker.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12700             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  You operate out of Canada, but you phone into the States.  And is it the position of the FCC that you are subject to their rules?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12701             MR. DESBRISAY:  Yes, because our client is an American company.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12702             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Ah, okay, okay.  So they would get ‑‑ if there was a breach, they would get to the client, not necessarily yourself.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12703             MR. DESBRISAY:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12704             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  And that is the only reason, because the transporter issue is one that I would worry about in terms of people phoning from the States up to Canada.  So the only sort of jurisdiction we would have would be over the client and where it would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12705             MR. DESBRISAY:  That's right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12706             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  I wanted to talk to you about business to business.  First there was the CMA distinction that said that business could register with the ‑‑ with the list, but on business to business type ‑‑ which would be sort of, I guess, bulk selling, that they would not be immune from telemarketing calls.  What do you think of that distinction?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12707             MR. DESBRISAY:  Who is going to be the judge of that?  I just think it is impossible to police and ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12708             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12709             MR. DESBRISAY:  ‑‑ make judgment calls and this company's okay and this company isn't.  Who is going to say so?  Who has that wisdom?

LISTNUM 1 \l 12710             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Yes.  And I am famous for taking notes.  They say we don't even need the person taking the transcript.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12711             You said if there is no business to business there will be a lot of customers you couldn't call.  That's what you said, if there was no business to business exemption ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 12712             MR. DESBRISAY:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12713             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  ‑‑ there would be a lot of customers we couldn't call.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12714             MR. DESBRISAY:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12715             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  So you are saying presumably ‑‑ I mean, that's based on the fact that if there were not a business to business exemption a lot of businesses would put themselves on the do not call list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12716             MR. DESBRISAY:  Or they could be put there unbeknownst to them.  The disgruntled employee, my teleterrorist, the receptionist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12717             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12718             MR. DESBRISAY:  All kinds of ways that a business number could be put on the list, unbeknownst to the business.  Then my call blocker ‑‑ when I try to call that business, my call blocker will not process the call.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12719             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  So that is how that fits with ‑‑ the business community is not concerned.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12720             MR. DESBRISAY:  Yes, we don't think there's any demand by the business community to have business numbers on the do not call list.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12721             COMMISSIONER CRAM:  Okay.  And then you talked about charging consumers for the do not call list, and I am going to read you the opposite view by Mr. Gahan:

"Because the consumer pays for telephone service, no marketer has the right to misuse this service.  Any unauthorized contact intended to make a profit directly or indirectly must be considered misuse."

LISTNUM 1 \l 12722             I guess the argument then comes down to, if Mr. Gahan is correct, he pays for the service, he pays a pretty penny for having a phone and he should be able to decide who phones him because he's paying for the service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 12723