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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT:
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Delta Bow Valley Delta Bow Valley
209 4th Avenue SE 209, 4th Avenue SE
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
February 13, 2007 Le 13 février 2007
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /
PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Michel Arpin Chairperson / Président
Rita Cugini Commissioner / Conseillère
Barbara Cram Commissioner / Conseillère
Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseiller
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Jade Roy Secretary / Secrétaire
Peter McCallum Legal Counsel /
Conseiller juridique
Marie-Claude Mentor Hearing Manager /
Gérante de l'audience
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Delta Bow Valley Delta Bow Valley
209 4th Avenue SE 209, 4th Avenue SE
Calgary, Alberta Calgary (Alberta)
February 13, 2007 Le 13 février 2007
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE I (Cont'd)
PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:
MVBC Holdings Limited 309 / 2327
CanWest MediaWorks Inc. 420 / 2928
PHASE II
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Crossroads Television System 495 / 3363
Rogers Broadcasting Limited 499 / 3380
MVBC Holdings Limited 504 / 3404
PHASE III
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Joe Media Group Inc. 545 / 3582
Fellowship of Christian Assemblies of Canada 551 / 3607
Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association 553 / 3615
CHUM Limited 562 / 3667
CIM Canada Media Services Inc. 580 / 3753
Toronto Somali Television & Radio 583 / 3768
Fresh From the Yukon Inc. 585 / 3776
James Jacuta 589 / 3813
Southern Alberta Heritage Language Association 592 / 3824
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
PHASE III (Cont'd)
INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:
Committee on Race Relations and 599 / 3860
Cross Cultural Understanding
Ploty.com/Interwizja.tv 615 / 3935
Canadian Polish Congress 617 / 3944
Catholic Charities, Catholic Social Services 623 / 3986
Sign of Hope
Central Alberta Women's Emergency Shelter 626 / 3995
Alberta Children's Hospital Foundation 627 / 4002
Alan Weenink 633 / 4030
Alberta Motion Picture Industries Association 638 / 4066
PHASE IV
REPLY BY / RÉPLIQUE PAR:
CanWest MediaWorks Inc. 641 / 4081
MVBC Holdings Limited 650 / 4115
Rogers Broadcasting Limited 655 / 4138
The Miracle Channel Association 661 / 4166
Crossroads Television System 672 / 4233
Calgary, Alberta / Calgary (Alberta)
‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Tuesday, February 13, 2007
at 0830 / L'audience reprend le mardi
13 février 2007 à 0830
LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 23192319 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We will resume the hearing.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12320 Ms Secretary, would you introduce the next item?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12321 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12322 We will now proceed with items 7 and 8 on the agenda, which are applications by MVBC Holdings Limited for licences to operate a multilingual ethnic television programming undertaking in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12323 The new station in Calgary would operate on channel 38 with an average effective radiated power of 21,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 30,000 watts/antenna height of 170 metres).
LISTNUM 1 \l 12324 The new station in Edmonton would operate on channel 45 with an average effective radiated power of 32,000 watts (maximum effective radiated power of 50,000 watts/antenna height of 121 metres).
LISTNUM 1 \l 12325 Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Bob Lee who will introduce his colleagues. You will then have 30 minutes to make your presentation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12326 Mr. Lee.
PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION
LISTNUM 1 \l 12327 MR. LEE: Thank you, Chairperson and members of the Commission.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12328 My name is Bob Lee and I am Chair of the Board of Directors of Multivan Broadcast, operating as channel m. In addition to my role as Chair of Multivan, I am also Chairman of Prospero International Realty and UBC Property Trust.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12329 Before we start our opening remarks, I would like to introduce the members of our panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12330 In the front row and going from your right to left are:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12331 Larisa Sembaliuk, Chair of our Advisory Council in Edmonton;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12332 Peter Gillespie, Vice‑President of Operations at channel m;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12333 Dianne Collins, our News Director;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12334 John Michel, Vice‑President of Program Production and Promotion;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12335 Art Reitmayer, our President and CEO;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12336 Farnaz Riahi, Vice‑President of Finance at channel m;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12337 Bruce Hamlin, Vice‑President of Sales;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12338 Paul Denys, who is a member of channel m's Advisory Council in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12339 In the second row with me, again going from your right to left:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12340 Jeff Keeble, Senior Manager of Deloitte Touche, who will be available to speak to reviews of Calgary and Edmonton TV markets and projected revenues of channel m proposed stations;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12341 Jane Ha, Associate Vice‑President of Ipsos Reid;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12342 Greg Kane, our legal counsel, and relative to this community, a member of the Board of Directors of Glenbow Museum;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12343 Janet Callaghan, partner of the firm Callaghan‑Osborne and author of the study prepared for channel m on Advertising Market Demand;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12344 Mark Burko, who is the Vice‑President of Airtime Television Sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12345 I am also pleased to recognize in the audience my partner and fellow Director, Doug Holtby and James Ho, in the front row on the right there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12346 Our other partners Geoffrey Lau and Joe Segal are, unfortunately, under the weather and unable to be here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12347 Gary Segal is representing his father Joe Segal. We are all very proud to note that Joe was recently named to the Canadian Business Hall of Fame.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12348 I will now begin the introduction of our application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12349 Tomorrow, February the 14th, is Valentine's Day for many. However, it is a much more significant date in the channel m family because it is the anniversary of the Commission's decision in 2002 to issue us a licence to provide a new ethnic television service in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12350 We are extremely proud of what we have accomplished at channel m in Vancouver and building upon that success we are very excited by the opportunity of establishing new over‑the‑air television service in Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12351 Art Reitmayer, our President and CEO of channel m, and the exceptional group of staff and advisors he has assembled will now assist me and place before you our vision for two vibrant ethnic and multicultural television stations, each reflecting the unique ethnic makeup of Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12352 Art Reitmayer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12353 MR. REITMAYER: Thanks, Bob.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12354 There are many reasons we believe there couldn't be a more appropriate time to introduce ethnic television into Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12355 Alberta has become Canada's new economic and ethnic powerhouse. Its evolution to become Canada's fastest‑growing province has resulted in a phenomenal influx of new immigrants which add to the already diverse ethnic landscape of Alberta. These vibrant ethnic communities, established and newly arrived alike, offer an abundance of culture waiting to be reflected.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12356 For example, Alberta is host to over 40,000 arts and cultural events per year and cities play host to spectacular community events such as Edmonton's Heritage Festival where over 58 different ethnic communities come together to showcase their cultural heritage.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12357 In preparation for this application we met many of the senior leaders of Alberta's ethnic communities. Whether it was the Ukrainian Cultural Centres and Congress, the Canadian Polish Congress, the German Canadian Club, the Sikh Federation of Northern Alberta, the Chinese Bilingual Education Association, the Austrian Society or the Pakistan Canadian Association, to name a few, the resounding message was that there is currently no local television programming to support and reflect their communities' expressions and values.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12358 Joining us today on our panel are Larisa Sembaliuk and Paul Denys, two prominent community leaders who will help us to explain this void in the Alberta landscape.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12359 Larisa.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12360 MS SEMBALIUK: Mr. Chairperson, Commissioners, I am delighted to welcome you to another beautiful winter day in Calgary and I am honoured to be asked to say a few words as an involved representative for the Ukrainian community in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12361 As an artist and active participant in the arts and cultural community I can tell you that Albertans are excited about the prospect for bringing multicultural broadcasting into our homes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12362 It is particularly important to me that channel m is committed to local programming. Their proposed local programming facilities, support for the independent producers and producing programs for Edmonton's multicultural audience will facilitate interaction with the community and ensure that most locally relevant events are broadcast in a timely manner.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12363 I have listened to channel m's philosophy, I have researched their performance in Vancouver and I had an opportunity to ask them some tough questions. With the benefit of this information I have agreed to be head of the Advisory Council for Edmonton, a pledge that I do not take lightly.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12364 channel m have proven their commitment to fund and mentor local ethnic producers, to produce quality ethnic programming and to be community leaders. As such, I foresee that the ethnic communities in Edmonton and Calgary will take pride in seeing their communities reflected in similar quality programming, cultural event coverage and sponsorships.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12365 Paul.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12366 MR. DENYS: Thank you. Like Larisa, I am delighted to welcome you to Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12367 As the Manager of the Polish Canadian Cultural Centre, I have close ties to Calgary's Polish community. I too believe that the time has come to introduce multicultural television stations into Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12368 Since the time of settlement in Alberta, Calgary is the fourth most common destination for immigrants, and Edmonton is home to the fifth largest ethnic community in Canada. Statistics Canada immigration trends forecast significant expansion of Alberta's multicultural communities within the next five to 10 years, and yet surprisingly, there is no local ethnic television broadcaster operating in the province.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12369 I too have listened to channel m's philosophy and reviewed their commitments. Based on this information I have also agreed to be an Advisory Council member on their Calgary Advisory Board. Our Chair, Dr. Harjat Singh, is in India and is unable to attend, as she will explain in the video you will see in a moment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12370 There is a definite need for multicultural television in Alberta as it will promote diversity and bring our communities together. I am confident that the ethnic communities will take pride in seeing themselves reflected in the type of quality programming that channel m will provide.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12371 Art.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12372 MR. REITMAYER: Thanks, Paul.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12373 Our application is based on three simple values: quality, by presenting the best possible product to our viewers; community, by supporting and becoming an integral part of the communities we serve; and local, by ensuring we operate within and produce programming for our ethnic viewers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12374 These values have guided our vision for channel m's answer to the call for a television undertaking in Alberta by leading us to provide separate and distinct programming schedules to service the local needs of Edmonton's and Calgary's audiences.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12375 In each of these schedules, we offer:
LISTNUM 1 \l 12376 ‑ 86 hours or 68 percent per week of ethnic programming targeting the multilingual and multiracial communities of Edmonton and Calgary, respectively;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12377 ‑ 73 hours or 57 percent per week of programming in a third language aimed at the diverse ethnic communities of Alberta;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12378 ‑ at least 60 percent of programming overall and 50 percent during the evening hours of 6:00 p.m. to midnight will be dedicated to Canadian programming;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12379 ‑ a commitment to 100 percent ethnic in prime time between 9:00 and 11:00 p.m. seven days a week;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12380 ‑ over 60 hours per week of local ethnic programming will be produced in Alberta;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12381 ‑ a commitment to expend $4.64 million in direct benefits in Alberta for independent productions, script and concept development, and educational initiatives;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12382 ‑ a commitment to quality ethnic productions using local ethnic writers, directors and producers;
LISTNUM 1 \l 12383 ‑ the creation of approximately 100 new local television production and broadcast technology jobs for Albertans.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12384 Showcasing quality local programming on the screen is our highest priority.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12385 To do this, we will first ensure new program ideas are encouraged and developed through our commitment to spend $650,000 over our seven‑year licence term on program script and concept development. This seed capital will help create compelling first‑rate Canadian product through our local independent writers and producers for generations to come.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12386 Secondly, it is vital that our independent production community receive the support they need to get their programs on the air. We plan to support them in a very realistic way by committing no less than $3.7 million to license programming from our independent production community over the licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12387 And finally, to ensure the viability of the ethnic broadcast system, it is important that we develop the next generation of broadcasters. As such, we will assist ethnic students by committing to spend at least $280,000 over the licence term in support of their educational endeavours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12388 But this is just the beginning. We have demonstrated that we can provide compelling quality programming to our Vancouver audiences and we will now describe in more detail our exciting plans to continue this proud record through our programming in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12389 Johnny.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12390 MR. MICHEL: channel m's outstanding programming will reflect both Edmonton's and Calgary's vibrant ethnic communities. Our passion for quality coupled with our desire to serve our local communities has resulted in a budget of over $40 million for ethnic programming in Alberta over our seven‑year term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12391 What makes the channel m programming model different, however, is our focus and understanding of how to produce quality local community‑based ethnic programming tailored to the different communities we will serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12392 Working directly with the local communities in Alberta, we will produce programs directed towards a minimum of 17 distinct ethnic groups to be broadcast in 17 different languages. Of the 17 languages, 13 will be produced in Edmonton or Calgary. Combined, over 60 hours per week of channel m's ethnic programming will be produced in Alberta.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12393 Before we put forth a program schedule, we discussed our philosophy with the ethnic communities and producers in Calgary and Edmonton. These consultations were very helpful and they confirmed our view that the two communities are very different, with a different mix of ethnic groups in the two cities all having different programming needs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12394 We realized that the best way to serve them would be to derive separate and distinct programming schedules for each market. So that is what we have proposed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12395 Edmonton's program schedule will consist of a minimum of 8 hours a week devoted to Ukrainian language programming as Edmonton boasts an historic and extensive Ukrainian community. To address the flourishing Asian and South‑Asian population, we will produce 6 hours per week of local Cantonese and six hours per week of Hindi news.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12396 These will be locally produced newscasts out of our Edmonton studio, with Edmonton anchors, writers, reporters, editors and camera people.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12397 In addition to the news information and educational programming, channel m will produce, finance and/or license representative third‑language local programming that recognizes the many fascinating and diverse ethnic groups that are such an important part of Edmonton. These programs are in a one‑hour magazine format style and reflect each community back to its constituents.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12398 Third‑language programming produced by Edmonton producers will include programming for the Arabic, Dutch, Italian, Polish and Filipino communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12399 Calgary's program schedule, in contrast to Edmonton, will consist of a minimum of 8 hours a week devoted to German language programming. The Calgary program schedule will also provide a major commitment to 6 hours a week of news in each of Mandarin and Punjabi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12400 The survey done for channel m by Ipsos Reid indicated that the most influential factors for increasing viewership in the new station would be the local news with a focus on ethnic communities in the respondent's mother tongue. Again, these will be locally produced newscasts out of our Calgary studios.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12401 In addition to the news and information and educational programming, channel m will work with Calgary talent to produce third‑language programming for the Polish, Danish, Dutch, Italian and Spanish communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12402 These independent producers in Edmonton and Calgary, respectively, will be responsible for producing over 10 hours a week of original third‑language television programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12403 In an era where there are few outlets for multicultural producers to apply their craft and where no industry funding sources are available to them, it is amazing that any multicultural shows are produced at all.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12404 channel m's model, on the other hand, ensures success because for third‑language programming to be successful it is of paramount importance that meaningful working relationships are developed with our independent producers, directors and technical personnel. In this way, channel m excels.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12405 We form synergistic relationships with our production community through such avenues as helping them set up their own production companies, supplying camera and editing equipment to them, assisting them with seminars on how to tell stories, how to shoot, how to edit, and by generally being a partner with them in their communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12406 The result is that the programs produced for us by our independent producers meet the highest standards possible, dispelling any myth that ethnic programming is somehow of a lower quality.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12407 One of the greatest rewards we get from speaking to our viewers in Vancouver is the pride they feel from watching programming directed to their communities that is of the same or higher quality than conventional English services. That same high standard will be brought to our stations in Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12408 Art.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12409 MR. REITMAYER: At the heart of our consultative process are separate local advisory committees in each of Edmonton and Calgary. Based on our experience in Vancouver, which you will see in a moment in our video, our advisory councils are professional working committees that take an active role in guiding decisions at channel m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12410 There are eight representatives each in Edmonton and Calgary comprising members from the Ukrainian, German, Polish, South‑Asian, Chinese, Ismaili, Dutch, Scandinavian and Arabic communities. Individually and collectively they are an impressive group and our programming and overall broadcast operations will benefit enormously from their ongoing advice.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12411 From inception channel m was intent on building bridges with our ethnic audiences, celebrating our differences and fostering understanding in Vancouver's communities by actively promoting a broad range of community programming that celebrates Vancouver's diversity. We said we would be inclusive and we are. Our track record speaks for itself.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12412 Since its inception channel m has consistently produced over 56 hours of local programming per week in over 22 different languages. This represents the highest local production requirement and most aggressive language count for any broadcaster in any Canadian market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12413 We service the needs of five of our ethnic groups with third‑language news, promote dialogue by offering call‑in interactive shows in three different languages and produce no less than 12 separate ethnic productions out of our Vancouver studios.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12414 While our licence commitment was to work with five independent producers, we currently work with 11. We also understand that being an integral member of the community means being an active champion in their community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12415 In an area of community support, we actively participate in over 75 multicultural events each year, air public service announcements valued at over $2.5 million since our launch and serve on over 14 charity, non‑profit and community organization boards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12416 Most importantly, we have achieved success without sacrificing quality. The industry has recognized this commitment by presenting us with international, national and regional awards from prestigious organizations such as Promax, BDA, the New York Film Festival, the Canadian and British Columbian Association of Broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12417 All of this has been accomplished in three short years that we have been on the air but don't think that is the length of our experience. The management team at channel m has in total over 115 years experience in television broadcasting in Alberta and British Columbia, including extensive experience with startup operations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12418 We now seek the approval to bring our brand of high quality programming commitment to local communities and western‑based leadership to Calgary and Edmonton markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12419 Our team is no stranger to Alberta's landscape as many of us have lived and been part of our communities in Red Deer, Vegreville, Edmonton and Calgary. Working in Alberta has given us a clear understanding and appreciation of the people, the communities and the businesses that we would like to serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12420 The Ipsos Reid survey of the Alberta market found that western‑based ownership of the new television undertaking in Edmonton and Calgary was extremely important, with respondents confirming that western‑based ownership was of utmost importance to them. The stations that will be most welcome in Alberta will be western‑based such as channel m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12421 We are confident that our vision for vibrant ethnic multicultural and multiracial, multilingual over‑the‑air television services will make a difference in Alberta's rich ethnic landscape.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12422 Now we would like to share a little of our exceptional channel m brand of broadcasting with you. This short video starring some of our staff and produced entirely in‑house will introduce some of our advisors, our philosophies and the channel m vision for Alberta.
‑‑‑ Video presentation / Présentation vidéo
LISTNUM 1 \l 12423 MR. LEE: When we appeared before the Commission at the 2001 public hearing, we gave you our commitment that we would meet or exceed all the promises we made to you and the citizens of Vancouver. We asked you to trust us and you did.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12424 We have not let you down with our services in Vancouver and today we once again ask for that trust so that we can provide the same exceptional service in Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12425 In this era of ever‑increasing consolidation and in order to meet the requirements of our Broadcasting Act, it is extremely important to maintain as many independent voices as possible in the Canadian broadcasting system.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12426 We are a strong western voice with a responsible business plan, with reasonable assumptions that we have verified. We have the passion, the commitment, the resources and the experience to ensure that a channel m service in Edmonton and Calgary will be a complete success, contributing to setting a new standard of excellence for ethnic television in Canada.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12427 Thank you for your attention. Art Reitmayer will be happy to respond to any questions you may have or direct them to the appropriate individual on our panel.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12428 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr. Lee. I will ask Commissioner Cugini to ask the first questions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12429 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12430 Mr. Lee, Mr. Reitmayer and to your panel, good morning and welcome to these proceedings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12431 Because I believe that every good idea starts with what viewers will end up seeing on the screen, my first line of question will involve programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12432 In your application in response to question 7.3, you say that your broadcast week will be 154 hours but your sample schedule submitted with your application shows 126. Can you confirm whether your broadcast week will be 154 or 126 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12433 MR. REITMAYER: What we were looking at there, Commissioner Cugini, was basically the on‑air time period for the station versus the 6A to midnight time period. So the 6A to midnight is obviously the 126 hours and the balance of that would be the time period to where we would actually sign off.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12434 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So all of your programming commitments are based on 126 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12435 MR. REITMAYER: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12436 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And that, of course, includes the 68 percent of ethnic programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12437 MR. REITMAYER: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12438 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And you will accept that as a condition of licence?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12439 MR. REITMAYER: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12440 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: It is good to get those things out of the way.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12441 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Now in terms of U.S. programming on your schedule, is it fair to assume that the 35 hours classified as English is primarily U.S. programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12442 MR. REITMAYER: I think what you see on the schedule, there probably is, you know ‑‑ again, it was a presentation schedule that was put together with a significant amount of consultation with the various members of the communities in both Calgary and Edmonton and then looking at the balance of that with English, and that could go up or down but a good portion of that would be the U.S. programming that would come in to assist in cross‑subsidizing the overall programming that would be offered on channel m in Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12443 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So these 35 hours are not necessarily a maximum?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12444 MR. REITMAYER: No. We would look at some range up to ‑‑ the maximum, I believe, that is allowed in the policy is somewhere around 63 in English and that would not all obviously be foreign programming because we do often offer programming that is cross‑cultural that is dealing with initiatives that arise within the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12445 We have numerous examples were we have done ‑‑ for example, within the Vancouver market, early on there was an opportunity for us to broadcast a Lunar New Year Parade or the Chinese New Year Parade in Chinatown downtown and initially we offered that program. When we first broadcast it, it was done in Cantonese, thinking that that was really the market that we were looking at.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12446 In subsequent years we felt the best way to actually do some cross‑cultural programming on that was to offer the parade in English and do a number of vignettes around that that brought the broader community into that event, and so that was done in English and continues to be done in English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12447 The success of the event now has gone from where we are at ‑‑ it initially started at 18,000 people at the parade and last year there were 60,000 people at the parade that are celebrating Lunar New Year with the broader community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12448 So that would really be a flexible number that we would need to at least have some flex and wouldn't lock down at 34.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12449 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: But you have now committed to 68 percent of ethnic programming. Let us make it easy, will you accept a condition of licence that no more than 32 percent of your programming schedule would be in English?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12450 MR. REITMAYER: Could I just take a quick moment to review that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12451 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Certainly.
‑‑‑ Pause
LISTNUM 1 \l 12452 MR. REITMAYER: Can you repeat that please, Commissioner Cugini?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12453 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: In my previous question, you committed to 68 percent of your schedule being ethnic ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12454 MR. REITMAYER: Correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12455 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ leaving 32 percent of your schedule, and will you accept a condition of licence that no more than 32 percent of your programming schedule will be in English?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12456 MR. REITMAYER: In English?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12457 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12458 MR. REITMAYER: Well in fact though, I think the example that I just provided is that you would see some crossover between ethnic that would also be in English. So to restrict it back to 32 percent in English would be difficult because, again, within that 68 percent you would find some English ethnic programming as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12459 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: How much of your programming schedule will be U.S. programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12460 MR. REITMAYER: I believe at present you are looking at somewhere around 40 hours and we can get the exact number on that. It would not exceed what is currently allowed under the Broadcast Regulations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12461 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Your financial projections in terms of advertising revenue, how many hours of U.S. programming have you included in order to come up with your financial projections against advertising?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12462 MR. REITMAYER: Again ‑‑ perhaps I will ask our Vice‑President of Sales, Mr. Hamlin, and Johnny Michel to also assist on that but I believe it is mid‑forties that we have got in the schedule that we provided with our projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12463 Bruce, maybe you can provide some additional detail.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12464 MR. HAMLIN: The number of hours in the financial projection is 48 but it is not all U.S. that is based upon those 48 hours. I believe it is about 40 hours is actual U.S. hours and the other 8 are other language offers like the movies and things like that that we would obviously attain some ratings then as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12465 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Yes, I was looking for the specific number of U.S. hours that were used to calculate your financial projections.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12466 MR. HAMLIN: I believe the number is 40.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12467 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Forty hours, okay. Perhaps legal counsel could take this under advisement and come up with an appropriate COL before the end of the question period. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12468 Now in terms of the 40 hours of U.S. programs, do you anticipate that the titles will be the same in both Edmonton and Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12469 MR. REITMAYER: That would be the plan, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12470 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Are they the same as they are in Vancouver?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12471 MR. REITMAYER: That would be ideal if we could arrange that. Obviously, there are synergies in acquiring U.S. programming and foreign in general. Obviously, the more capacity that you can bring to the market, the better the type of arrangement that you can negotiate. So that would be definitely something that we would look to do.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12472 Whether we could do that in all cases, because of the differences and the magnitude of our company, we are not of a scale that would really allow us to ensure that that would happen.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12473 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: But you anticipate that ‑‑ I mean clearly it would be an advantage if you were able to leverage those synergies and amortize the cost of the U.S. programming across all three markets?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12474 MR. REITMAYER: No question.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12475 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I want to move now to the specifics of the 86 hours of ethnic programming. Of the 17 ethnic groups you propose to serve in Calgary, the primary languages are German, Mandarin, Punjabi, Ukrainian, followed by Cantonese and Hindi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12476 According to statistics that we have from Stats Canada only 0.1 percent of the population in Calgary identified German as their home language and only 1.5 percent of the population identified German as their mother tongue, and the stats for Mandarin‑speaking are 0.2 and 0.4, respectively.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12477 So the general question is: What factors did you take into consideration in determining what languages your services would feature?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12478 MR. REITMAYER: The process that we took to arrive at our programming schedule was really a combination and it was consultations with the communities, both Calgary and Edmonton, and we had dialogue with them and looking at what languages ‑‑ it was a combination of what languages were ascending with respect to new immigrants and what communities were currently within the market and looking to see themselves reflected on the television screens and their cultures.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12479 When you look at statistics sometimes with respect to home language, I think sometimes they can be somewhat misleading. I am also going to ask Larisa to assist or at least expand on this but first I would like to give my own personal example.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12480 My parents were European immigrants and initially when I was growing up my parents spoke German in the home and that was the case for a number of years until my sisters and I started attending public school. Then the language that was in use in the home became English and I suspect that had my parents at that time filled out surveys with Stats Can they would have said that the home language at that time would have been English because that was the language that was used in the home.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12481 That doesn't mean that the German language has stopped being spoken in our home. I continue to speak and understand it. I watch the German program that we produce in Vancouver. My daughter also speaks German. My parents continue to watch the programming, as do my relatives.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12482 So when you look at that expanded base ‑‑ but yet, I suspect all of them would identify as home language in use would be English. So that statistic may not be as revealing with respect to what the community is looking to see as what is really the case.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12483 Perhaps, Larisa, I could ask you to expand on that a bit.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12484 MS SEMBALIUK: Certainly. Commissioner, my personal background is Ukrainian and I was able to bring to the Advisory Council a perspective that it doesn't often show up in statistics.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12485 There are a lot of groups in Canada that came over 120 years ago, Ukrainians, Germans, Polish, Chinese, that are referred to now often as old‑comers or integrated ethnic groups, and we have been around here for almost four or five generations but the language isn't dead.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12486 Using Ukrainian as an example, 30 years ago in Edmonton, the Ukrainian bilingual program was established and has been followed by ‑‑ seven other languages are now being hosted in the Edmonton public school system. The Ukrainian bilingual program has had over 4,000 graduates that have gone from kindergarten to grade 12, gone through the university Ukrainian program, have become active in the community using actively the Ukrainian language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12487 When Chernobyl happened, within 48 hours Ukrainian‑speaking doctors and medical technicians from the University of Alberta were able to respond.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12488 When Ukraine became independent we didn't just have tourist agents who could speak Ukrainian, we had Ukrainians from the legal profession from the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies at U of A that helped in the formation of the Ukrainian Constitution, so an active language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12489 Grant MacEwan Community College has the Ukrainian Resource Centre that is actively translating university and college textbooks for nursing, dentistry and pharmacology to be used in Ukraine.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12490 So the language is active, it is alive, and we have got students from our bilingual program who have gone through the technology that Canada's education system has to offer, which includes learning how to use Camcorders, digital formats that 12‑year‑olds can now use in doing a Ukrainian presentation in grade seven, so that we are really excited about the opportunity to work in the broadcasting format and make our language that is alive come forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12491 In addition, there is a demographic that is often ignored and that is our seniors in nursing homes. We have got 80‑year‑olds, 90‑year‑olds, sons and daughters of the first pioneers, who have integrated. They use English as their first language but their most comfortable language is Ukrainian, German, Italian, and their link to the community now is the TV.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12492 Every room in a nursing home, in an old folks' home, has a television and they are delighted to have programming in a language that they are most familiar with. It gives them opportunities to see their children, their grandchildren, their great‑grandchildren come into their home at times that they are not allowed to go out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12493 So the choice of including programming for the old‑comers, for the integrated ethnic groups, I think, is a very solid opportunity that channel m is offering.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12494 MR. REITMAYER: I believe Paul has some additional comments.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12495 MR. DENYS: The situation with the Polish community is quite similar with English becoming very predominant with youngsters. Nevertheless, parents still see it as a very important advantage to their children that they continue to speak Polish.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12496 Between Edmonton and Calgary there are three Polish language schools, one full‑time, two part‑time. I myself am a graduate of such a school and thanks to that I continue to be fluent in both Polish and English. I graduated with what is an equivalent of a Polish high school education as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12497 Oftentimes in my job I meet people of Polish descent who are quite saddened by the fact that their parents or perhaps the community at large wasn't able to somehow help them foster the language that they have lost forever and perhaps programming such as what is being proposed by channel m will be able to keep those people in touch with the language and we won't have to talk about the fact that a particular language is dying or dead. Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12498 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Is there any programming in those three languages currently available in the market on either another television service or radio and even in print? Are those languages prominent in the market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12499 MR. REITMAYER: When you look at ‑‑ there is a couple of things.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12500 First off, there is some that you do see on some of the higher‑tier services but they really are not localized programming in any way, shape or form. They really reflect communities either often from Ontario or in many cases even more distant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12501 It really would be a situation where you have got similar to what we encountered when we came into the Vancouver market, where you had "producers." I don't really think they were producing much but what was happening is you had videos, poor dubs of videos being pushed over to a service and then being distributed in the community and it would be old movies that they may have picked up and distributed or programming from years and years and years ago that really isn't relevant to anyone.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12502 So there may have been some language product but there really wasn't anything that was locally relevant and the number of hours that would be offered is considerably less than what we would look to offer to those significant communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12503 And perhaps, Larisa, is there anything you wanted to add to that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12504 MS SEMBALIUK: I just wanted to say that there are a couple of Ukrainian programs that are produced in eastern Canada and one of the most frustrating things for us in Alberta is to see a show with material that doesn't reflect what is happening in our communities, promoting a program or a concert or an interview with someone who is appearing in Montreal or Ottawa next week. It is interesting but not locally relevant.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12505 Or advertising for Buduchnist's Credit Union in Toronto, where we do have our own ethnic‑based business institutions in Edmonton that would make way more sense to have the local advertising come to us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12506 A lot of times people just turn off the information coming from the east because it is not relevant and so we are looking forward to getting information that is pertinent to our situation.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12507 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And there are no radio programs in those languages?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12508 MR. REITMAYER: In some cases, Edmonton more predominantly so than Calgary. There is CKER in Edmonton that was just recently acquired by Rogers that does have some programming in some of the languages that we are discussing here but our belief is, as always, these can only complement as opposed to compete for individuals and increase the opportunities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12509 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you, that was a very thorough response.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12510 Again, of the 86 hours of ethnic programming, how many of those hours will be exclusive to each market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12511 MR. REITMAYER: The majority actually would be exclusive. In language or in production? Because, again, in some cases what we ‑‑ you know, through consultation, again, with the communities, what we found is there is a desire to have like languages in both markets, Calgary and Edmonton, but what we have undertaken is to ensure that they reflect the local communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12512 So again, the communities of Edmonton and Calgary having operated ‑‑ initially when I was in Alberta I spent extensive time in Red Deer. So I was between both cities and saw the competition that exists between those markets and then spent time in Edmonton as well and they are different cities and communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12513 So it was our undertaking that to the degree possible we wanted to ensure that the model that we built in Vancouver that reflects local communities is what individuals will see in Calgary and Edmonton. So there is like language programming in some markets still locally produced. So again, there is a distinction there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12514 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. Can you make that distinction a bit more clear for me? What I want to know is 86 hours of ethnic programming in both markets, does this mean that 86 hours will be exclusive to Calgary and a second 86 hours will be exclusive to Edmonton, in other words, 86 hours in each market?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12515 MR. REITMAYER: No, there is some overlap and I will ask Johnny Michel perhaps to take you through language programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12516 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: That would be great, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12517 MR. MICHEL: Commissioner Cugini, the local programming aspect is 30 hours that is exclusive to Edmonton and 30 hours produced in Edmonton; 30 hours that is produced in Calgary. Some of that programming that is produced in Edmonton will actually run in Calgary as well, not all of it. Some of the programs that are produced in Calgary will run in Edmonton as well, not all of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12518 Some of the local independent productions ‑‑ for example, we are committing to five local independent production hours in Calgary, five in Edmonton, three of which are the same language but there will be two distinctive productions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12519 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Sorry, is that in addition to the 30?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12520 MR. MICHEL: No, that is including.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12521 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: That is part of the 30?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12522 MR. MICHEL: That is part of the 30, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12523 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12524 MR. MICHEL: As far as languages is concerned, we are committing to 17 languages in Calgary, 17 languages in Edmonton, 16 of which are the same languages, not necessarily the same program, with the one difference in language. One has got Arabic and one has got Spanish.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12525 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: What makes up the balance of 56 hours then, 86 minus 30?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12526 MR. MICHEL: As I mentioned, 30 hours will be local to each TV station. Some of the local stuff that would be produced in Calgary would run in Edmonton. That would be acquired Canadian as far as the two stations are concerned. Others would be foreign in third‑language programming, about 10 hours in each market. And the rest would be Canadian acquired, some of which would be from channel m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12527 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Do you have a number as to how many hours would come from channel m?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12528 MR. MICHEL: Yes, about 16 hours.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12529 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: About 16 hours?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12530 MR. REITMAYER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12531 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Is that all of your Canadian acquired or do you have other sources for acquiring Canadian ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12532 MR. MICHEL: There may be some but that pretty much is the bulk of our Canadian acquired. This is a starting point and our hope, as we have done in Vancouver, is to do as many local hours as possible.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12533 As Art mentioned in our opening comments, in Vancouver our commitment was for five hours from independent producers. We currently have 11. Next month it is going to go up to 12 and in about six months it is going to go up to 13.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12534 So that is our strategy, is to continue to develop local talent and turn all the Canadian acquired ‑‑ not all, as much as we can Canadian acquired into locally produced programming. That is our commitment, that is what we feel audiences want and this is the best way we can serve the communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12535 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you. The 30 hours that you will produce in both Calgary and Edmonton, what will be the genres of those 30 hours and in which languages?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12536 MR. MICHEL: The 30 hours that we are doing in Calgary, there is going to be German language programming and the German program that we are doing is going to be a live program and it is going to be a newsmagazine style program. This is going to be the same format that we started in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12537 In Vancouver we recently launched, in the fall, the first ever live Hindi program with phone‑ins, entertainment stars, you name it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12538 This is our plan in terms of what we will be producing out of Calgary. This will be a live German language program. There will be some English in there as well but predominantly it will be in German. It will have a news element to it. It will have a community affairs element to it. It will have coverage of festivals and community activities. It will have an entertainment style to it or segments. So that would be produced in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12539 We are also producing 6 hours a week of Mandarin news in Calgary and we are doing 6 hours of Punjabi news in Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12540 On the other hand, in Edmonton we are producing the same style of program as the German program but in Ukrainian and we are doing 6 hours of Cantonese news in Edmonton and 6 hours of Hindi news in Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12541 We are also producing weekend people in the news programs in both Edmonton and Calgary. In Calgary it will be in German people in the news and in Edmonton it will be Ukrainian.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12542 We are also really excited about ‑‑ we are going to be doing 26 one‑hour to learn German and learn Ukrainian and that is the one thing that we have always gotten from feedback from the communities that we serve, is that they don't want to lose touch with their language and they want their children and grandchildren to learn the language. So we plan on developing a series that will do just that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12543 Yes, go ahead.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12544 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I was just going to ask will that be station‑produced?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12545 MR. MICHEL: Yes. That is part of our local commitment, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12546 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you. So at least for the first license term, you think that the majority of the local programming will be in fact news and information programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12547 MR. MICHEL: And educational as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12548 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. And in both cases you will be using local talent in both markets.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12549 MR. MICHEL: Absolutely. Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12550 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Do you anticipate any synergies between the two news services between Calgary and Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12551 MR. MICHEL: Well, I will let Mr. Reitmayer or Dianne maybe handle that specific to the news with respect to how that would work.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12552 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12553 MR. MICHEL: Thanks.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12554 MR. REITMAYER: We would anticipate that there would be some. There are stories in any news organization when you look at it. We currently in Vancouver, even though we don't have operations in other parts of the country, we do source stories from those markets because they are of interest and relevant to Canadians living in ‑‑ whether it is Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12555 So the same would be the case with Calgary and Edmonton but it is not our intention to have one producing news for the other. They are two distinct news services and news operations that would operate independently and make those determinations as to the stories that would go on the air independently.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12556 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Do you anticipate any synergies with your news production in Vancouver?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12557 MR. REITMAYER: Again, to the degree that you have the ability to source stories through your local operation that are relevant to the communities in Calgary and Edmonton, yes. Other than that the operations are independent.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12558 There are some things that obviously from having operated a news operation in Vancouver for a number of years now ‑‑ and our News Director Dianne has vast experience in production of news. So a lot of the guidelines, the practices and whatnot that we developed in Vancouver, we would obviously offer those to the individuals responsible for the newsrooms in Calgary and Edmonton but that would be the extent of it.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12559 Those newsrooms are independent and they are going to make decisions and determinations on the stories that go to air that are relevant to those local communities and those will be made in the market by individuals operating in those stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12560 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Would that be true as well for the national and international news segments of your newscasts?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12561 MR. REITMAYER: Yes, our segments ‑‑ and perhaps I will ask Dianne to weigh in on this one ‑‑ but we don't have the same kind of structured approach. I mean ours is really relevant to what is going on in the local community and that really drives the rundown for how our news is really delivered over the course of the day.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12562 Maybe, Dianne, I can ask you to just expand on that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12563 MS COLLINS: Thank you, Art.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12564 Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, good morning. We in Vancouver ‑‑ again, as Mr. Reitmayer said, are very strong on the local community and one of the advantages that we have is that we have a news partnership with CTV.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12565 Now there may be a day, for example, where ‑‑ there is an organization in Vancouver called Success, so they may be doing a news conference to talk about something that is going on, an initiative that they are putting forward for the Chinese community, and there may also be a news conference at the very same time where, say, the Education Minister in the province is talking about some initiative in schools.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12566 Now both of those would be relevant and interesting to our audience but at channel m we would send our reporters out to the Success news conference because we know we can talk to them in language, we can get clips from the various newsmakers and present those on our newscast, whereas with our partnership with CTV, if we talked to them in the morning and they said, well we are going to go out and cover this news conference that Shirley Bond is doing today, we can take their video and then translate it for the various newscasts so that they are able to use those stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12567 So we try as often as we can to be local. Our reporters and our assignment people have tremendous contacts in the community, so they are always coming up with interesting ideas for stories.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12568 And then we also have Associated Press as well as CTV and Asian Television where we can get stories from either India or from China so that we can present those as well to our audience.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12569 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: According to your schedule, in particular in Calgary, you have selected to provide your news only in Mandarin?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12570 MS COLLINS: No, the news in Calgary will be in Mandarin and Punjabi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12571 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Right, okay. You are right. So let's go to your Mandarin newscast. According to Stats Canada there are more Cantonese‑speaking people in Calgary than there are Mandarin, so I am curious as to why you would provide news only in Mandarin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12572 MR. REITMAYER: Again, that was the result of extensive community consultation and what we found ‑‑ again, when you are trying to develop schedules ‑‑ and it obviously harkens back to one of your earlier questions where you asked if what we see on the schedule today will be the case for our licence term.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12573 Sorry to go back that far but in all honesty, what we try to do ‑‑ and if you looked at our schedule when we started in Vancouver, the schedule that you see today is different. I mean it is a very dynamic process. The reason that we have an Advisory Council here with us today and the reason we have advisory councils in Vancouver is to assist us to ensure that that schedule reflects the community as we go forward and continues to reflect the community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12574 And the other part of that is really capacity‑building. When we first originated in Vancouver there wasn't really a lot of producers around to offer other types of programming. We felt it was important to offer news programming at that time. But as you can see now, Johnny explained, we do a live daily program in Punjabi that is really talking about entertainment and everything else. It is offered in the afternoon.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12575 Could we have started the schedule with that? It would have been difficult at that point in time but we find ourselves now in the very fortunate position where we have the talent and the desire to go forward with that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12576 And would we bring that same kind of determination to Calgary and Edmonton? Yes. And would the schedule continue to evolve and reflect the communities' needs, wants and desires? Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12577 So I mean that is really where we come from and coming back to the question of whether it is Mandarin or Cantonese in Calgary, when we were having our consultations with members of the community what was indicated to us was that the significant growth in the community was in the Mandarin language.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12578 And additionally, many of the Cantonese speakers were moving towards the Mandarin language in an effort ‑‑ because of the trade issues and everything else and so there was a strong desire to see Mandarin news on the schedule. So we felt that was the appropriate place to begin with respect to a proposal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12579 Does that mean that Cantonese would not exist on that schedule? Not at all. We would have to continue to work with our consultations as we bring the schedule to air and as we go forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12580 And it is the same kind of thing we encountered in Edmonton. We had extensive meetings up there and we were originally led to understand that the majority of the community up there would appreciate programming in Cantonese.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12581 And speaking even to your earlier home language question, we encountered a number of individuals up there that are Cantonese speakers and they are encouraging their children to learn Mandarin.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12582 So their question to us was why is there no Mandarin news daily in Edmonton? And we explained to them that the community there, we understood, was stronger in Cantonese and everything else. And he said, yes but they are all learning Mandarin as well and we would like to see some Mandarin. Our kids ‑‑ in our home we actually speak English and when they go to see their grandparents they can't communicate with them because they are teaching them Mandarin and their grandparents speak Cantonese.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12583 So you have got all these different dynamics at play and I think the important part of what we do is we try to make sure that we reflect that through the schedule that we offer in the communities that we operate in.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12584 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So does that mean that although the schedule only shows Mandarin news, if licensed, by the time you get to air you may provide news in Cantonese in Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12585 MR. REITMAYER: We would have to undertake consultations and, you know, would we like to, if that is what the community is looking for, that is what we would look to offer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12586 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I appreciate that it is a sample schedule but I hope you can appreciate that it is the indication to us as to whether or not you understand fully the market that you want to enter and you understand the needs and wants of the communities that you are proposing to serve.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12587 MR. REITMAYER: And we do, and I hope that we have done ‑‑ and when you look at the appendix even in our original submission it demonstrates the number of individuals that we spoke with in the community and that was very early on in the process. We have assembled an entire advisory council and part of that was, again, to guide us as we were trying to put together our schedules for Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12588 Does that mean the process ends at that point? No, I mean that really is just the beginning. It is an indication of some of our thinking at that point in time but we continue to meet and have dialogue on that and should we be successful in securing the licences, those schedules are going to continue to evolve over the time of the licence and going forward because, again, there is capacity within the community that assists and allows us ‑‑ as Johnny indicated earlier, we started with five independent producers in Vancouver and I remember our early meetings before we even went to air. We were going, five languages, five independent producers, boy, that is going to be a bit of a tough nut.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12589 And if you look at us today, it is 11 and growing and we have got some phenomenal programming on the air because of that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12590 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you. I want to move to your commitment of $4.36 million to independent productions over the seven‑year term of the licence.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12591 Is this an independently administered fund or is it a fund that will be administered by channel m?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12592 MR. REITMAYER: No, it is a fund that is administered by channel m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12593 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And what will be the criteria for determining which project will get funded?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12594 MR. REITMAYER: I will ask Johnny to expand on that a bit, but again, it is really to work with and build capacity within the ethnic communities for production of programs that are relevant to the ethnic communities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12595 I will maybe ask Johnny to expand on how that whole working relationship is structured.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12596 MR. MICHEL: We work with our independent producers on many different levels. As Art mentioned ‑‑ I am not going to sit here and tell you it is a cakewalk to work with independent producers from various ethnic communities. It is not, it is a very difficult process. It is very difficult to find the right people, to find the right frame of mind, people that are connected to the communities that are not going to use the show as their soapbox and people that are respected by their own communities. But we have done it and we are committed to doing that here.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12597 So with respect to our licensing and our fund and how we support the independent producers, there are many different levels in terms of how we license. The criteria for the selection is certainly third‑language programming, some English‑language programming as well but the majority of it would be third language because that is what the communities want. We want that local reflection. That is very important to us. That is something that we keep hearing from the communities all the time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12598 And again, that is why what we have done in Vancouver, we keep going, taking a lot of the Canadian acquired ‑‑ as Larisa mentioned, nobody wants to have a Ukrainian program that comes from back east and play here. What people want to do is feel connected to their own community and find out what is going on in their community.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12599 So our priority is to do third‑language programming that is local. So that would be the priority. From there we take a look at licensing other cross‑cultural programming as well. That may be in a third language or it could be in English as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12600 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: How many hours of programming do you anticipate will be generated through this fund?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12601 MR. MICHEL: At this point, we have the 10 hours that are going to be produced by the independent producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12602 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And those 10 hours will be produced using this money exclusively?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12603 MR. MICHEL: Absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12604 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. Will the shows produced with these funds end up on your Vancouver schedule?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12605 MR. MICHEL: If the programs work in Vancouver and audiences are looking for that kind of content, then absolutely.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12606 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you. Of the $4.36 million you also allocate $280,000 for the funding of educational initiatives directed at ethnic students resident of Calgary and Edmonton.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12607 Have you identified educational institutions in these markets that provide such educational initiatives?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12608 MR. REITMAYER: We have had preliminary discussions with organizations such as NAIT and SAIT. We haven't spoken with them about the magnitude of the dollars. Again, we felt it was very preliminary but we have set up a similar type funding situation in Vancouver and we have got scholarships and a number of different types of relationships where we actually work with students.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12609 So they would receive a scholarship whether it is looking to work in the technical side of broadcasting or the journalistic and then we also encourage them that once they complete the program to actually come and spend a practicum period with the station so they can actually experience firsthand the situation that they are looking to get into and then if there is something with us, we work on that and if not, then we encourage them and work with them to try and find employment somewhere else.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12610 So I mean it is a cross and very involved working process that we have but we do offer scholarships and we have had some preliminary discussions in the market only.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12611 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: In each of Calgary and Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12612 MR. REITMAYER: Yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12613 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Do you anticipate that you will be involved in some way in selecting the students who will receive these scholarships?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12614 MR. REITMAYER: We haven't typically. We have been there to recognize them when they are handed the scholarship and given the cheque. I mean we are always there to happily do that. It is a great time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12615 But we haven't typically. What we have set up, and really we believe that the educational institutions are the best at determining those students that are the ones that should be receiving those types of rewards.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12616 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Eighty‑six hours of ethnic; 73 hours, you say in your application, will be in a third language, which of course leaves 13 hours. So what is the nature of these 13 hours and in what languages will they be broadcast?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12617 MR. REITMAYER: Again, I will ask Johnny to give you the details but there is a crossover within that because again, within ethnic you could have English language as well and that would be some of the programming that is on our schedule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12618 But perhaps, Johnny, I can get you to explain some of the different programs that are there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12619 MR. MICHEL: What we put in our schedule right now is just some English‑language ethnic programming that is currently produced out of Vancouver. We continuously produce programming in Vancouver and the plan is to be doing the same in both Edmonton and Calgary and utilize our facilities to their fullest capabilities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12620 The shows that we have on our schedule right now that are English language that make up the 13 hours that you were talking about, we do a cooking show. We have done almost 360 half‑hours. These cooking shows are ethnic cooking shows. In each and every episode we celebrate a different culture and we have cooks that come ‑‑ and these are not chefs even though we do have a chef's edition.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12621 We did one that was all grandmas and mothers that came on. People come on and bring costumes and they bring the flag and they bring all kinds of things from their own country and they talk about their stories from their homeland. We think this is wonderful cross‑cultural programming.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12622 We also did a series on Tai Chi and Yoga. But throughout the year ‑‑ and those would be the kind of opportunities that we would look for once we are operating in the market, as we have done in Vancouver. I will give you an example just to illustrate what I am talking about.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12623 When we go home this weekend we will be producing the Fourth Annual Chinese New Year Parade that happens in Chinatown. Now this is the fourth year that we will be doing this and we do it in English. It is going to be hosted by actually my Programming Manager, she is Chinese, and it is going to be hosted by a South‑Asian host that we have at the station called Turanum (phon.). So a Punjabi and a Chinese are going to be co‑hosting and the roving reporter is going to be Spanish and we bring it in English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12624 We get tremendous response from the community and when you watch the show you get perspective, you get relevance, you get context and understanding about the lunar new year, you understand why they give the red packets to each other, why they have new clothes, what are the traditions, what is the lunar calendar, why is this year the Year of the Pig as opposed to Year of the Dog, and that is the kind of programming that we produce.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12625 We air that ‑‑ we are going to be producing that during the day and then we turn that around and cut a one‑hour special that runs at 7:00 in prime time on Sunday.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12626 Two hours later we are going to be premiering a show that we helped support from a script concept and ultimately we went to licensing it, called "I am the Canadian Delegate." It is the story of the first Chinese Canadian MLA, Douglas Jung, who passed away in 2003.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12627 A fascinating story about how he was born in Canada but never had the rights of a Canadian until after he went and fought in World War II. After that he became a lawyer and actually became the first Canadian Chinese representative at the United Nations. When he showed up at the United Nations to take his seat the usher told him, sorry, sir, this is reserved for the Canadian delegate, and Douglas Jung said, I am the Canadian delegate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12628 So this is the story that we are going to be running on Sunday. So that is the kind of programs that we do produce and that is the kind of programs that we want to produce here as well. That is what we have done in Vancouver. There are many other examples that we have done. I can go on and on about the programs that we have produced.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12629 What you see in the schedule here right now is just what we have produced in Vancouver but we want to leave a lot of room so that we can develop programs here that tell Canadian stories, immigrant stories from both Edmonton and Calgary with local independent producers.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12630 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Well it is too bad or too good for you, I don't know, that this isn't the Year of the Rat because according to Chinese astrology that is what I am.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12631 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So is it fair to say ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12632 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: And we sort of agree with that around the Commission.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12633 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I set myself up. Yeah.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12634 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So all kidding aside, is it fair to say then that those 13 hours for the most part are English primarily focused on your cross‑cultural, cross‑generational philosophy in terms of programming?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12635 MR. REITMAYER: That is what is in our current schedule. I do want to come back to the cross‑cultural, by the way. I don't think cross‑cultural only exists at the language level of English.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12636 One of the things that we have had that is quite exciting for Vancouver that we have seen is as more and more of our independent producers have come on line and started working with us, we have them all coming together at regular points throughout the year to try and work with them. We offer seminars and whatnot, again, because of the whole capacity‑building initiative that we believe is important in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12637 Just one example is our Romanian producer who now is out at all manner of events and reporting on things going on in the South‑Asian community in Romanian language to the Romanian community. That also is cross‑cultural and I think it is an important aspect of the kind of the service that we offer.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12638 MR. MICHEL: If I may just add an anecdotal story.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12639 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Please.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12640 MR. MICHEL: The producer that Art is talking about, when the Dalai Lama was in Vancouver, she was front and centre with her media pass and did an interview with him and ran it on the program as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12641 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: In terms of primetime on your schedule you show that you plan on scheduling ethnic programming from 9:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. What are the advantages of scheduling ethnic programming at this time as opposed to the 8:00 to 10:00 p.m. slot, for example?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12642 MR. REITMAYER: It is a combination. Quite honestly, when you look at it, we feel that the 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. with the types of programming that are in there, you are going to see the Ukrainian and German communities with lifestyle combination programming in the 9:00 time block, and then at 10:00 you will see primarily news programming depending on the market you are in, whether it is in Mandarin, Punjabi, Cantonese and Hindi, which is not an inappropriate time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12643 The other side of that is that within the Alberta community, recognizing the type of model that this is with respect to cross‑subsidization with other English programming, you do have Spokane that comes in at a different time period and it does tilt the opportunities that are available. Under where we looked at from a revenue perspective, our opportunities with respect to repatriation and whatnot were definitely enhanced by moving to a 9:00 to 11:00 time period in this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12644 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: We will get to the repatriation question a little bit later on but will you accept as a condition of licence that from 9:00 to 11:00 p.m. you will be 100 percent ethnic?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12645 MR. REITMAYER: Yes, we will.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12646 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. I am going to move on a little bit to the area of HD programming. On page 19 of your application you talk about:
"...building a facility that will be a fully digital SDI plant and that the amount of HD equipment included in the facility will be determined largely by the availability at the time of the building."
(As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 12647 And that is quoted directly from your application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12648 What is the issue with accessing HD equipment? Is it not true that for the most part HD equipment is what is being sold by the major manufacturers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12649 MR. REITMAYER: I may actually ask ‑‑ I will begin the answer but I will also ask Peter Gillespie maybe to come in on that one. He has been to a number of hearings with me and hasn't had a chance to speak and I know he is just itching to get on here.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12650 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You are sure about that?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12651 MR. REITMAYER: I am pretty sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12652 When you look at the whole migration to HD, I mean our current facility is digital and SDI, and when you look at HD equipment there is no question that as the market continues to evolve the pricing on a cross‑section of the equipment is decreasing as we go forward.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12653 So obviously, we would look at the most opportune time to try and invest in that kind of equipment to ensure that we are getting good quality equipment but not at a point where we can't afford it with respect to our overall business model.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12654 And Peter, maybe you would like to speak to some of the plans there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12655 MR. GILLESPIE: Sure, thank you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12656 Commissioner, what Art said is exactly true. As we built the plant in Vancouver, it is built on an HD backbone and for the most part it is HD‑capable.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12657 What we mean by equipment being available is there are still a very few areas that it is not cost‑effective. Either it is not cost‑effective or the equipment simply is not there yet to be cost‑effective to buy HD.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12658 An example of that at this immediate point in time is news cameras where you would have to buy such an expensive camera for news that it wouldn't be worth buying an HD model. That by the time we get on air may change. Of course, technology moves at a very rapid pace. Prices are coming down and technology is being developed.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12659 So certainly it would be folly of us not to buy HD in all the areas that we can buy HD if it is available and it does make sense cost‑wise at the time to do that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12660 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So in making the statement "determined largely by the availability at the time of the building" has more to do with cost than it does with the actual equipment being available?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12661 MR. GILLESPIE: Well, yes ‑‑ both, yes.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12662 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. Will any of the programs on either station be in high definition or in wide screen?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12663 MR. REITMAYER: Wide screen is certainly something that is far easier to access in the initial stages but quite honestly, it would be our desire to move to high definition as quickly as possible. So that really would be something that we would obviously endeavour to do but obviously the 16X9 wide screen is something that would be in the plans automatically.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12664 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Automatically, being year one?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12665 MR. REITMAYER: Year one, you would have to ‑‑ going at this point, acquiring gear that isn't 16X9 at a minimum wouldn't be wise.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12666 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You, like the other applicants in these proceedings, have applied for an analog channel for both Calgary and Edmonton. I know you followed the TV review proceedings and you know that a considerable amount of time was spent during those proceedings in talking about digital transmission and the consequences of the U.S. shutting down analog in 2009.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12667 Do you have a digital transition plan in place for Calgary and Edmonton?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12668 MR. REITMAYER: Our facility ‑‑ and Peter may actually get a second one here. This is good.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12669 MR. REITMAYER: Our facility will be digital from the outset. Yes, we are aware and the discussion that occurred at TV policy, I think, is important and obviously we look forward to seeing the results that come forward from that with respect to how that transition will roll out.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12670 In Vancouver, the transmitter that we purchased, actually it is a board switch and that transmitter switches from analog to digital. Those are the same kinds of plans and thinking that we would deploy in Alberta depending on the type of decision that comes from the Commission with respect to analog to digital transition and what the time frame the Commission actually sees.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12671 Peter, is there anything you want to add on that?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12672 MR. GILLESPIE: Sure, just a quick one. We made sure also that when we applied for the NPSC frequency that the associated DTV paired channel was also available and clear of interference. So we have done all the technical analysis on the DTV migration.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12673 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And is digital transition reflected in your financial projections as filed?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12674 MR. REITMAYER: At present the capital that would be required for an additional transmitter is not but again, we are looking at somewhere in the neighbourhood, depending ‑‑ prices continue to decrease on that. Our last look at Vancouver was somewhere in the $250,000 range for a transmitter if we had to replicate so that we are running coincident equipment on both analog and digital.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12675 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And that 250K is not currently in the financial projections ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12676 MR. REITMAYER: That is correct because again, the time period was indeterminate at that time. We know that it is coming very quickly. It was just a question of what is coming, the awareness of TV policy and everything else with respect to ‑‑ and we knew that was a significant item that was up for discussion at the time of filing. So we didn't reflect it. But again, it is not a consequential number to that degree.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12677 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. Now that we are talking about the TV policy it calls to mind another question I was meaning to ask you. I don't know if you were in the room yesterday ‑‑ you are smiling, you know what I am going to ask you.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12678 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I don't know if you were in the room yesterday when Rogers responded to the question in relation to your joint submission at the TV review wherein you asked us to consider relaxing the restriction on scheduling of ethnic programming in primetime. I want to give you an opportunity to comment.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12679 MR. REITMAYER: Yes, I was in the room. That was a fun presentation actually.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12680 When you look at what happened at policy, and I think Alain articulated it quite well in that it was really to highlight issues that were across the board for all broadcasters and when you look at the genre that we broadcast in, the time restrictions with respect to a hard lock on that time period is a restriction that doesn't exist for many other broadcasters.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12681 That doesn't mean that we have plans that it would automatically go away in the event that we had that discussion at a future licence renewal hearing that says we would still like to see some relief.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12682 We have no plans at this point in time but sometimes the frustration that we find in programming a service such as ours is often the creativity that you can put into a programming schedule is eliminated because it really becomes a math matrix. There are so many different things that we are required to measure up to and perform on because of conditions of licence that the actual ability to respond to the community and actually have a creative schedule that is compelling to the local community is taken away from us.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12683 So I think really the intention at policy was to try and initiate that discussion that hopefully will be more fulsome down the road at licence renewal hearings.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12684 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you. I just wanted to give you the opportunity to get your response on the record.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12685 I want to spend a little bit of time talking about your advisory council. Thank you for bringing members of both here with you.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12686 Just generally speaking, what is the role of this council going to be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12687 MR. REITMAYER: I can speak very definitively about what happens in Vancouver. The advisory council there is comprised of members of a cross‑section of the community. They meet three to four times a year and that is at their determination. There is a separate chair. You saw Dr. Saida Rasul on the screen. She has been our chair pretty much since inception of channel m in Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12688 They receive reports from the station with respect to our community initiatives, our programming initiatives, every six weeks. So we have to say that the contact face‑to‑face is three to four times a year. There is continuous contact, you know, technology nowadays. Dr. Rasul is with her husband working in Pakistan, in Karachi.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12689 So oftentimes we are communicating by email with the entire advisory council but we are updating them on our plans and the initiatives that are under way in the community, the program changes that we are contemplating. We have feedback from the council and the input from the advisory council is taken very seriously. We have initiated a number of changes in our programming because of advice that came back from that council.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12690 We see that same kind of structure and situation in Calgary and Edmonton and that is why in our estimation we had to have advisory councils and we tried to establish them early on so they could feed into this process for us as well. But they guide us in the program decisions that we make, the community initiatives that we undertake, all very important aspects of the type of station that we operate.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12691 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: What is your criteria for the selection of the members?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12692 MR. REITMAYER: It is a combination, quite honestly. We look to the advisory to also determine who is on the advisory. It is not something where we just select those members.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12693 They look at ‑‑ they are aware of what the requirements of the service are and then there is a determination to invite additional members onto the advisory to ensure that we are properly representing the communities that are in the market and that they are properly representing back to us what is happening in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12694 So it really is not just us appointing individuals. It mostly operates to some degree as a separate board and they actually select members. We will put forward names that have expressed an interest and then the advisory actually determines the new members that would go on.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12695 In the case of Calgary and Edmonton we spoke with a number of individuals and invited them on but that really was for an establishment phase and then it really becomes ‑‑ the dynamic becomes that separate advisory council board, if you like.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12696 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you. Okay. So we spent part of the morning talking about how you are going to spend your money. So now we are going to move on to how you are going to make your money.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12697 In your financial projections you anticipate that 52 percent of your advertising revenues will come from existing off‑air stations and you say that includes the repatriation of advertising expenditures currently targeted to the four U.S. border stations.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12698 To your knowledge, do you know whether or not the Spokane, Washington stations have sales representatives in Edmonton and Calgary?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12699 MR. HAMLIN: The belief is that there is definitely representation in Canada for those stations. As a matter of fact, Mr. Burko, who is our National Representative with Airtime Television Sales, previously did represent, if not one, a number of services in Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12700 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: In Toronto?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12701 MR. HAMLIN: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12702 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Do you have any idea as to what the amount of both local and/or national advertising is currently lost to these stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12703 MR. HAMLIN: The estimates that we have got through Mr. Burko is that there is a range. We don't have a definitive hard number but the estimates are somewhere around 3‑5 percent of each of the Calgary and Edmonton markets can migrate to these four services out of Spokane.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12704 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. How much of the 52 percent of revenue that you anticipate coming from existing off‑air, how much of that 52 percent do you anticipate will come from repatriating advertising revenues from the Spokane stations?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12705 MR. HAMLIN: Our calculations are somewhere in the area of about $1.8 million per market would come to Calgary and Edmonton. It would represent about 25 percent, give or take, depending on the exact revenue calculation, but about 25 percent of our revenue.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12706 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Of your total revenue ‑‑
LISTNUM 1 \l 12707 MR. HAMLIN: Yes, that is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12708 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑‑ not just of the 52 percent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12709 MR. HAMLIN: That is right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12710 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay, thank you. Excuse us for just a second.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12711 COMMISSIONER CRAM: I was taking notes. What percentage was it of the total of your revenues, the $1.8 million?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12712 MR. HAMLIN: Approximately 25.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12713 COMMISSIONER CRAM: Thank you. Sorry.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12714 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: You know, Barb, we have transcripts here.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12715 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Since when do we interrupt each other?
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
LISTNUM 1 \l 12716 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: We warned you we were in a good mood when we started.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12717 You project that $6.76 million will come from English‑language programming aired in Calgary and $5.94 million in Edmonton and you did confirm that these projections are based on 40 hours of U.S. programming on your schedule.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12718 The $6.76 million to come from English‑language programming, is that the 40 hours of U.S.?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12719 MR. HAMLIN: To be honest, the number of hours that I am calculating in the financial projections are closer to about 47‑48 but they are not all U.S. programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12720 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: In the English‑language programming component?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12721 MR. HAMLIN: Yes. There are some programs that have subtitling, in particular movies, that are revenue opportunities and they have been for us at channel m in Vancouver. So those are in that calculation as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12722 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So you anticipate that if you have language movies with English subtitles or English movies with language subtitles?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12723 MR. HAMLIN: Language movies with English subtitles.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12724 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Will generate the same level of revenue as your U.S. programming and that is why they are included?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12725 MR. HAMLIN: They won't necessarily generate the same revenue. It depends on whether those English programs are running in primetime or in fringe time.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12726 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Sure.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12727 MR. HAMLIN: But they generate some rating points in the market which then that is what the community will buy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12728 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. In terms of revenues from third‑language programming, which language groups do you expect to play a significant role in generating that revenue?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12729 MR. HAMLIN: The main language communities that we see that will be the easiest to develop in the first stages are going to be the Cantonese, Mandarin, Hindi and Punjabi because those are already established communities in many other markets, especially Toronto and Vancouver, and we think that the opportunity from both a local/regional perspective as well as a national perspective will be easier because the bulk of creative that has been developed for those communities can migrate into those communities a lot easier. So we see that as being a larger percentage of the ethnic sales.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12730 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. In your detailed financial projections I notice that you don't provide us with any revenue figures for 6:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. In fact, your day part starts at 1:00 p.m. with no revenue allocated to 6:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12731 MR. HAMLIN: Yes, there will be some revenue there. We haven't calculated it in because we don't see it as being a significant part of the revenue stream there but obviously there are a number of hours on our schedule that aren't represented on there as well and those are principally our third‑language opportunities, some of our third‑language opportunities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12732 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And those would be?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12733 MR. HAMLIN: From the program schedule in the morning ‑‑ Johnny, could you give us a hand on the programs in the morning?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12734 MR. MICHEL: Sure. I guess you would be talking about some of the third‑language programming that we would have. Tai Chi and Yoga, that would be certainly ‑‑ sorry, in the English language. But some of the Spanish, Vietnamese, Swedish, those types of programs.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12735 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So you anticipate that while they will play a role in your schedule they will not play a role in significantly generating advertising revenues for you?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12736 MR. HAMLIN: That is correct.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12737 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. On page 28 of the Deloitte Touche report it says that:
"Multivan's established sales force, distribution network and valuable relationships with western Canada's advertisers could be leveraged, allowing for synergies and selling airtime on the proposed TV stations."
(As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 12738 What are the synergies that you anticipate in the selling of airtime?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12739 MR. HAMLIN: Well in particular over the last three and a half years the relationships that we have built with the agency community as well as the significant advertising community about the opportunity to reach out and be more inclusive in their advertising strategy has been developed by the station both nationally and locally.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12740 So we see this as a very positive approach to the overall advertising community as a way that we have gained a lot of knowledge, we have done a lot of research, we have been able to quantify and qualify the opportunity about them building their business because at the end of the day that is what advertising really is all about. It is about why is the Ukrainian or the German or the Polish or the whatever community significant to them.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12741 We have been able to demonstrate that through our Ipsos Reid research, through our target analysis, our target market analysis of what communities are representative around a certain trade area and this has been very significant in allowing them to have more credibility and more accountability in putting and in placing money into these types of directions because at the end of the day if they don't have measurability and they don't have the confidence that these actual audiences are watching our programming, then there is really no transaction that is going to take place there.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12742 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Will you have a sales force and traffic department in each of the three markets?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12743 MR. HAMLIN: The plan is to have two distinct sales forces in both Edmonton and Calgary.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12744 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Right.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12745 MR. HAMLIN: The traffic department, I believe, would be centralized out of Vancouver.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12746 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. One of the things that struck me in that quote was, of course, relationships with western Canada's advertisers. Are these primarily local? Were they referring primarily to local advertisers?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12747 MR. HAMLIN: Well, not necessarily just the local advertisers. I spend a great deal of time in both Toronto and Montreal as well as in Vancouver because of the concentration of where advertising dollars actually come out of.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12748 Edmonton, for instance, The Brick's home office, I go up to Edmonton and talk to the advertising people at The Brick about their decision‑making process. So it really varies as to where those head offices are and where those decision‑makers are that are educating that strategy.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12749 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I also ask this because the Callaghan‑Osborne report says that it interviewed "key decision‑makers, marketers, agency management, media planners or media buyers" and that 26 percent of those interviewees are based in Manitoba, Alberta and B.C., and 74 percent are based in Montreal, Ontario and Toronto.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12750 So I am just trying to get a handle on who are these western Canadian advertisers and what are the advantages that therefore you bring in having this relationship with these advertisers in light of who the Callaghan‑Osborne report interviewed in order to gather data for that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12751 MR. HAMLIN: Okay. What I believe Janet Callaghan was getting at was that there is obviously a concentration of media buyers in the Toronto/Montreal region but there are also agencies and advertisers that don't reside in Toronto and Montreal and are obviously in either Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and other areas. But there is obviously an imbalance in that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12752 You can see that with the numbers there is a concentration towards Toronto. It doesn't mean that there isn't in Vancouver. There is a significant agency community in Vancouver as well as Calgary as well as in Edmonton, as well as a local advertising community here as well.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12753 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay, thank you. As you know, one intervenor, namely, CanWest stated that:
"Applicants have grossly understated their impact on both the Calgary and Edmonton markets in their application." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 12754 I did say "applicants," not just you.
"CHUM in its intervention anticipates that the majority of the impact will be borne by the CHUM station since it isn't likely that ethnic stations such as the one proposed by MVBC would go after the top 20 U.S. shows such as those on Global and CTV."
(As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 12755 Would you care to comment?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12756 MR. REITMAYER: Yes, I think oftentimes it is interesting when you see the size and scope of these organizations intervening that there is going to be significant impact.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12757 We truly believe ‑‑ I think Bruce has articulated quite well the level of revenue that we will be able to repatriate. When you break down the revenues that will be derived from the local stations in the market, you are talking in the order of ‑‑ if it is shared evenly, and it may be skewed slightly one way or the other but there are always opportunities to suggest that it is only top 20. Top 20 for CanWest or CTV exists in the primetime block U.S. scheduling that they are acquiring, so there are also daytime opportunities.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12758 If you look at the nature of our schedule it actually has got fringe properties as well. So when you look at it and the impact on those types of organizations, if you look at it in pure dollar terms it is somewhere around $400,000 to $500,000 per station. I would like to think that that is not going to take down Global or CTV in the near future.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12759 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you. Rogers in its intervention has said that:
"MVBC has failed to discount cost per rating point assumptions by between 30 and 40 percent, consistent with what Rogers feels is appropriate for ethnic TV stations and that this has resulted in a significant overestimate of projected revenues." (As read)
LISTNUM 1 \l 12760 MR. REITMAYER: I realize this isn't intervention or reply phase but since it was raised in that fashion I would note back that it is interesting that in Rogers' submission, under assumptions for revenue one would think that a key assumption would be that discount factor that is in place and it is not mentioned or noted anywhere in their application. It is only raised at the time that you can actually see that the revenues are significantly understated for their application.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12761 We did extensive research and when you look at even the Vancouver application it was never mentioned there in the competitive hearing when we went through that with Rogers as well, nor did we experience that.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12762 In Vancouver we sell at the market rate. We are not the high ‑‑ we are not the market leader, I would not suggest that, but we do sell at market rate. We are not looking to take down the market and we did extensive research in Calgary and Edmonton to ensure that the rate that we went forward with was the rate that was reflected in the market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12763 We have documentation that supports our rate and I think, in fact, the Commission has that type of documentation already on file, in fact, with one of the applicants.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12764 When you look at the cost per rating point that was advanced by CanWest in its application to bring CH into Calgary and Edmonton, the rate is in fact higher than our net rate in our proposal.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12765 So I would suggest that in some cases that kind of submission may be just a lot of mischief and in fact that they may be understating what in fact ‑‑ and I think CanWest has suggested that ‑‑ in fact understating the revenues that they will achieve and succeed in achieving in this market.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12766 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So it has not been your experience that in Vancouver you discounted your CPRs by 30 or 40 percent or anything even less than 30 percent?
LISTNUM 1 \l 12767 MR. REITMAYER: No, it hasn't.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12768 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Okay. In the Rogers intervention they also state that you have not taken into account a 15 percent reduction of projected revenues, consistent with agency commissions.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12769 MR. REITMAYER: I think if you look at ‑‑ in sometimes assembling an application it is often a process where you are dealing with so many different documents, I will agree that on the top caption there it says gross and it should say net but the number and the extension and the calculation that is there and the rate that is used is in fact the correct rate, and in fact, again, it is lower than the rate in net dollar terms that is in the submission that CanWest has on record at this proceeding.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12770 So if you look at that error ‑‑ and I am happy to point out errors in everyone else's application with respect to typos as well but if you look at it, the only error that only exists there is in the captioning, not in the quantum.
LISTNUM 1 \l 12771 &nbs