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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE
THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND
TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION
TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT
LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION
ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES
SUBJECT/SUJET:
DIVERSITY OF VOICES PROCEEDING /
AUDIENCE SUR LA DIVERSITÉ DES VOIX
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Conference Centre Centre de conférences
Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais
Portage IV Portage IV
140 Promenade du Portage 140, promenade du Portage
Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)
September 21, 2007 Le 21 septembre 2007
Transcripts
In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages
Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be
bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members
and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of
Contents.
However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded
verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in
either of the official languages, depending on the language
spoken by the participant at the public hearing.
Transcription
Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues
officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront
bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des
membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience
publique ainsi que la table des matières.
Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu
textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée
et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues
officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le
participant à l'audience publique.
Canadian Radio‑television and
Telecommunications Commission
Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des
télécommunications canadiennes
Transcript / Transcription
DIVERSITY OF VOICES PROCEEDING /
AUDIENCE SUR LA DIVERSITÉ DES VOIX
BEFORE / DEVANT:
Konrad von Finckenstein Chairperson / Président
Michel Arpin Commissioner / Conseiller Rita Cugini Commissioner / Conseillère
Andrée Noël Commissioner / Conseillère
Ronald Williams Commissioner / Conseiller
Stuart Langford Commissioner / Conseiller
Michel Morin Commissioner / Conseiller
ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:
Chantal Boulet Secretary / Secrétaire
Nick Ketchum Hearing Manager /
Gérant de l'audience
Shari Fisher Legal Counsel /
Bernard Montigny Conseillers juridiques
HELD AT: TENUE À:
Conference Centre Centre de conférences
Outaouais Room Salle Outaouais
Portage IV Portage IV
140 Promenade du Portage 140, promenade du Portage
Gatineau, Quebec Gatineau (Québec)
September 21, 2007 Le 21 septembre 2007
- iv -
TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS
PAGE / PARA
INTERVENTION BY / ITNERVENTION PAR :
Canadian Diversity Producers Association (CDPA) 1189 / 6643
Madga de la Torre, on behalf of a corporation
to be incorporated (OBCI) 1197 / 6701
Aboriginal Peoples Television
Network Incorporated 1233 / 6975
Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc. 1241 / 7024
National Campus and
Community Radio Association (NCRA / ANREC) 1274 / 7199
John Harris Stevenson (Pres. of CHUO‑FM) 1284 / 7255
L'Alliance des radios communautaires
du Canada (Arc du Canada) 1326 / 7539
L'Association des radiodiffuseurs
communautaires du Québec (ARCQ) 1338 / 7593
Association for Tele‑Education in Canada
and Saskatchewan Communications Network (SCN) 1381 / 7818
TimeScape Productions 1402 / 7960
St. Andrews Community Channel Inc. 1415 / 8021
Friends of Canadian Broadcasting 1436 / 8155
The Evangelical Fellowship of Canada 1460 / 8273
David Skinner (Professor at York
with Robert Hackett ‑ Simon Fraser) 1475 / 8362
Michael Andrew Lithgow 1485 / 8418
Women in Film and Television 1509 / 8540
Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)PRIVATE
‑‑‑ L'audience commence le vendredi 21 septembre 2007
à 0831 / Whereupon the hearing started at 0831
on Friday, September 21, 2007
LISTNUM "WP List 3" \l 1 \s 6634 6634 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madame Boulet, good morning.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16635 I think we are ready.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16636 THE SECRETARY: Good morning, Mr. Chairman. Good morning everyone.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16637 We will start this morning with a panel of interveners.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16638 We have been informed that the ASP Productions intervener will not be appearing.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16639 In would now call on the Canadian Diversity Producers Association, Magda de la Torre on behalf of a corporation to be incorporated, as well as the Committee to Commemorate and Memorialize the Abolition of the Slave Trades. I understand this group may not be in the room.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16640 Therefore we will proceed with Mr. Paul De Silva for the Canadian Diversity Producers Association.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16641 If you could introduce your colleague and you will then have ten minutes for your presentation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16642 Thank you.
INTERVENTION
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16643 MR. DE SILVA: Thank you, Madame Boulet.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16644 Actually, it will be Ms Patricia Scarlett that will begin.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16645 MME SCARLETT : Monsieur le Président, Mesdames et Messieurs les Conseillers, bonjour.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16646 Je m'appelle Patricia Scarlett et je suis présidente du Scarlett Media.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16647 I am also the Acting Chair of the Canadian Diversity Producers Association, the CDPA.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16648 Today, I am joined by my colleague Paul De Silva, a Gemini‑award winning independent producer, former Vice President of Programming at Vision Television, project director for Canada One Television and a founding member of the CDPA.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16649 The CDPA is a fledgling organization whose mandate is to represent the interest of visible minority and culturally diverse producers and related professionals in the film, television and new media industries.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16650 The CDPA was launched with the support of the Banff World Television Festival in 2005.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16651 We would like to register our pleasure of being able to appear before the Commission at these important hearings that will undoubtedly have a profound impact on our broadcasting system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16652 As well, we are pleased to have the opportunity to express on behalf of our organization the issues that are of concern, particularly the issue of diversity of ownership as it pertains to visible minority communities.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16653 We would like to note that there seems to be a multitude of meanings and definitions for the words 'diversity' and 'plurality'.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16654 This not surprising given the fact that, as a society, we are all struggling to find appropriate language to define the rapidly changing demographics and media landscapes.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16655 We noted with interest Richard Nielsen's comments regarding the evolving definition of diversity within the Commission's own policies.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16656 In 2006, diversity was defined as 'the inclusion of groups that have traditionally been underrepresented in broadcasting: ethno‑cultural minorities, Aboriginal peoples and persons with disabilities'.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16657 Recently popular CBC radio host Andy Barrie stated that certainly, in Toronto, diversity had become a code word for visible minority.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16658 The CAB, the voice of private broadcasting industry, entitled their presentation 'Re‑defining Diversity in the 21st Century'.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16659 The fact is we will continue to re‑define diversity for many years to come.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16660 MR. DE SILVA: Semantics matters aside, we would like to define our core concerns as they pertain to opportunities for visible minority professionals working primarily in English in the mainstream of the industry.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16661 And what do we mean by that?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16662 Simply that we would like to have access to adequate budgets on a consistent basis to make our programming attractive to viewers used to high‑quality drama in prime time.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16663 In the chairman's opening remarks he identified three key issues for these hearings. I think we all know them by heart by now.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16664 We would like to respectfully add a fourth which is a key issue for us.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16665 It is the diversity of ownership as it pertains to visible minorities and the resulting opportunities of employment that would flow at all levels.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16666 The questions have been raised as to why ownership is important.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16667 One very important reason is the right to fully participate in the economy of the country in an industry that is growing rapidly and is more and more becoming an integral part of the global economy.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16668 The other is that there is a direct correlation between ownership and commitment to the community one belongs to, which invariably is reflected programming.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16669 Denham Jolly, the founder of Flow Radio, and Shan Chandrashekar, both of whom have been referenced at these hearings ‑ Shan of Asian Television Networks ‑ are two very good examples of this.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16670 We acknowledge the important role of third language, news, lifestyle and community programming which, we believe, is presently being well‑served by channels such as OMNI 1 and 2 in Toronto and Channel M in Vancouver and several third‑language pay services.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16671 Our primary concern today is in dealing ‑ certainly from the CDPA ‑ is dealing with the issue of having adequate financial resources to tell stories in English, reflecting the interests and experiences of new immigrants, second‑ and third‑generation Canadians of visible minority and ethno‑cultural communities and of ethno‑cultural backgrounds whose primary language is English and who want to consistently, consistently, watch drama programs that reflect their interests and realities.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16672 The key word here is 'consistent'.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16673 The Commissioners have already heard about fragility in a system that dependents on benefits programs for new and innovative drama content.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16674 A good example of this is Metropia, produced by Toronto‑based independent producer, Protocol, for OMNI.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16675 MS SCARLETT: We realize that this is a complex issue involving market realities, the high cost of production, the popularity of American programming and the reliance by private broadcasters on this kind of programming for their profits.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16676 Given the unique nature of the economics of Canadian television, and the challenges faced by broadcasters and independent producers alike in producing Canadian drama, as defined in the recently‑released Dunbar‑Leblanc Report, it is clear that we need a new model of financing for Canadian drama that can only come from direct intervention from the CRTC.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16677 For visible minorities facing systemic barriers (which have been acknowledged by several interveners, including ACTRA and the Canadian Media Guild), as well as the market realities faced by all independent producers and media professionals, change will be a very long time in coming.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16678 MR. DE SILVA: Despite well‑intentioned initiatives by the CRTC, including the requirements for broadcasters to report on their diversity initiatives and file diversity plans, and efforts by individuals at various broadcasters over the past 30 years to increase the inclusion and participation of visible minorities, changes unfortunately have been marginal at best.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16679 Why have these initiatives proved to be so slow in creating any meaningful change?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16680 Because the problem is systemic and, without consistent and measurable requirements (similar to the MAPLE rules in radio), little progress will be made.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16681 With regards to the recent consolidation in the television sector, it would appear that three senior executive from visible minority communities in English‑language mainstream networks have lost their positions as a direct result of consolidation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16682 This is of concern to us as there are, perhaps, only two other senior visible minority executives in the entire mainstream system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16683 There are several implications, including the lost of diverse perspectives at senior management levels and the decrease in the already low levels of individuals who could serve as role models to the next generation of emerging media professionals.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16684 MS SCARLETT: Having established our concerns, we would like to make four specific recommendations.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16685 They are the following:
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16686 1) The CRTC require broadcasters to provide specific information about hiring in front of and behind the camera, in‑house and independent productions in their annual diversity reports.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16687 Currently, it is up to the broadcasters to decide what they would like to include in their reports.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16688 2) The CRTC suggest realistic targets based on their evaluations of the reports with regards to diversity.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16689 3) The CRTC make it a priority that minority‑owned channels be adequately funded to produce original high‑quality Canadian programming with an emphasis on drama as it is the most popular form of television.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16690 Ideally, a mechanism should be created in consultation with the BDUs.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16691 MR. DE SILVA: 4) That the CRTC undertake a comprehensive research study which could incorporate studies recently done by Women in Film and Television, the CAB, the Nordicity study on visible minority presence in independently‑produced CTF‑funded drama and other studies relating to the marginalization of visible minorities in Canadian society.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16692 5) That the CRTC encourage broadcasters to allocate 20 per cent of their spending on independent production for productions that have two out of four (that is, producer, director, writer, lead actor) representation from visible minority communities in order to ensure consistent minimum levels of inclusion in key creative roles.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16693 In conclusion, in a broadcasting system that is regulated as it should be ‑ the airwaves after all do belong to the people ‑ the onus is on the regulator to regulate.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16694 The CRTC has the tools under the broadcast act to bring about meaningful change that will result in a truer reflection of Canada as it is today.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16695 The question, with all respect, is: Does it have the desire and the will?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16696 We are optimistic that it does, and we believe that Canada will be a richer and strong country because of it.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16697 We thank the Commission for this opportunity of presenting our viewpoints and our recommendations, and we welcome your questions.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16698 THE SECRETARY: Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16699 We will now proceed with Ms Magda de la Torre. If you could please introduce your colleague, you will then have ten minutes for your presentation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16700 Thank you.
INTERVENTION
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16701 MS de la TORRE: Good morning.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16702 Thank you, Madame Boulet.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16703 Good morning, Mr. Chairman, the CRTC Commissioners, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16704 Thank you for the opportunity to share our thoughts with all of you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16705 My name is Magda de la Torre, on behalf of a company to be incorporated, representing CANCON Diversity.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16706 This morning, Doug Kirk, President of Durham Radio, will join us.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16707 Our title is: Diversity of Voices Hearing, our Last Chance until January 24, 2012.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16708 Thirty years ago, November 1977, the CRTC requested 790 AM, Brampton, to cancel the three‑hour show The Saturday Night Musical Recipe, a multicultural radio show, produced by Peter Goudas, from Goudas Foods, for not complying and enforcing the 50 per cent Canadian content in their show.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16709 The CRTC, the CANCON percentage, the number of diversity residents in Canada and the radio industry as a whole has changed drastically in the last 30 years.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16710 What has not evolved proportionally is the lack of representation and exposure that the diverse communities and the CANCON diversity members receive from the Canadian airwaves.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16711 We commend the CRTC for this much‑needed hearing, but we ask ourselves if maybe it isn't too late.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16712 The latest amalgamations within the broadcasting industry have created a controlled situation by a few major players that only drastic, strong and carefully sought out measures will make a difference.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16713 The diversity spectrum in Canada is not the same as it was 30 years ago and 'all our airwaves' have to reflect this diversity phenomenon of today.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16714 Is the CRTC able and willing to make the changes and uphold 'safeguarding and enriching the cultural, political, social and economic fabric of Canada'?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16715 The results of this hearing and the changes to the regulations will be a part of the Canada where in several Canadian cities the visible minorities have become visible majorities.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16716 Will those majorities be properly represented?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16717 The future is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16718 The plurality of commercial editorial voices in local and national markets.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16719 Well, we know we already lost 280 journalists when CTV announced purchasing CHUM, and personally I was producing a 'Spanglish' show in Energy 108 when Shaw purchased the station and the first two shows cancelled where the two offering 'plurality'.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16720 The 'Spanglish' and the 'Caribbean & World Music', although the BBM ratings for the 'Spanglish' show were number one in 12 plus.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16721 The industry as a whole has to change their mandates and their visions to recognize and foster plurality of voices in every aspect ‑ commercial, editorial and singing voices (what we are protecting and promoting).
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16722 SOCAN did.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16723 Back in July 18, 2007 we wrote, in our comments, for the Review of Commercial Radio Regulations:
"SOCAN collects royalties and distributes payments to artists performing third‑language music, but . it is not monitored or accounted." (As read)
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16724 MS de la TORRE: Today, only two months later, the SOCAN membership application, reads:
"English, French of Other." (As read)
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16725 MS de la TORRE: Now, there is a plurality, and it is measured.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16726 Like this, every media, local and national, should amend their services to include the diverse plurality residing in Canada.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16727 Enclosed is a list of the Broadcast Dialogue radio stations in the GTA for your perusal and maybe your comments.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16728 Mr. O'Farrell, talking for the Canadian broadcasters, said:
"We are celebrating the surplus of diversity and the surplus of plurality." (As read)
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16729 MS de la TORRE: There is a plurality of commercial voices in the Toronto market.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16730 Two definitions for plurality. 'The state or fact of being plural.' 'A large number or amount.'
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16731 But nobody is talking about the plurality of opinions, the plurality of backgrounds that will bring different opinions or the plurality of the diversity of countries living in Canada that each of them has journalists with opinions about the perspectives of Canadians on local, national and global affairs.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16732 The most effective way to ensure that all Canadians are exposed to an appropriate plurality of these voices is via 'diversity owners and/or managers' and, even then, sometimes it does not work.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16733 The second adjacency is, like this hearing, our last chance and our only hope.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16734 With already two second adjacencies working in Toronto and one just licensed in Montreal we will welcome any other second adjacencies and, with diversity and plurality, try to balance the airwaves.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16735 Doug?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16736 MR. KIRK: Thank you, Magda.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16737 Chairman, Commissioners, Commission staff and ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to this proceeding.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16738 I am Doug Kirk and I own independent radio stations in Oshawa and Hamilton, Ontario.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16739 I accepted Magda's invitation to join you just to articulate a couple of key points on our vision of diversity of ownership and programming, which better serve the Canadian populace.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16740 Now, last year, I was here and participated in the Review of Radio with the Ontario Independent Radio (OIRG) presentation, and, without restating that presentation, let me just refresh a couple of the key conditions.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16741 Onr is that in our view the Canadian radio industry is two‑tiered.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16742 The major 14 markets are substantially dominated by the big six players, and that could be five soon.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16743 And those markets have over 60 per cent of Canada's radio revenue and three quarter of the profitability.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16744 The large groups continue to be moved by what I call the gravitational force of consolidation. They just get bigger and continue to get bigger.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16745 And, you know, their view and reason is to grow and increase profitability and basically return, as a lot of them are public companies or major private aggregations of capital.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16746 This continues in the CHUM/CTV thing already done, Astral/Standard in the works, CanWest having sold its stations to Corus, privates stations such as The Beat in Vancouver to CTV. This continues on.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16747 The large operators want to continue to grow and increase profits.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16748 I believe that, if the Commission wants diversity of ownership and programming, it can do that by licensing new and emerging owners.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16749 Similarly, musical genres are, I think, best portrayed to the public by owners which have first‑hand knowledge and experience in the music.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16750 I would just leave you with those two points, and Magda will finish and certainly take questions later.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16751 MS de la TORRE: Regulations and/or guidelines?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16752 The answer is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16753 The diversity of programming choices offered to Canadians and the effectiveness of existing or proposed regulatory tools in ensuring appropriate diversity of content.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16754 Back in 2004, the Commission, on diversity, identified two clear objectives:
"The broadcasting system should be a mirror in which all Canadians can see themselves. The broadcasting system should be the one in which producers, writers, technicians and artists from different cultural and social perspectives have the opportunity to create a variety of programming and to develop their skills." (As read)
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16755 MS de la TORRE: Except for the ethnic or community stations, almost all of the other Canadian media ignores diversity in their programming.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16756 Our producers, writers, technicians and artists do not have a proportionally represented voice in the Canadian airwaves.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16757 But, yes, once again, Mr. O'Farrell is celebrating the surplus of diversity and the surplus of plurality.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16758 Two definitions for diversity:
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16759 Diversity is the presence of a range of variations in the qualities or attributes under discussion.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16760 Diversity is the term used to describe the relative uniqueness of each individual in the population.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16761 Mr. O'Farrell is definitely using the first description. And he is right.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16762 Our OBCI is full of producers, writers, technicians and artists that do not have a voice in the Canadian airwaves.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16763 Frustrated, yes. Energy to keep struggling to achieve something in our new country, yes.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16764 Our plans are big and full of surprises.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16765 We have already sealed an agreement with Woofur, a radio by people for people, created to cater to people between the ages of 12 to 54 with interests ranging from independent music to genres of mainstream music not easily accessible on the local radio airplay.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16766 It didn't come out. It is www.woofur.com.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16767 Together, we will create a voice for Diversity Indies in every genre and in every language.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16768 During Canadian Music Week we will host a Diversity Day on Saturday and are planning to ask FACTOR, Radio Starmaker Fund/Fonds Radiostar and MusicAction to train our members to apply for funding and that evening we will host a Latin Rock Show.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16769 Finally, as our long‑term plan, we have our Canadian Diversity Idol converted into the Canadian Diversity Star, as idols sometimes are forgotten but stars will shine forever.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16770 The CCD, Canadian Content Development initiatives, as described in the CRTC Public Notice, has to be accessible to Canadian diversity members and the broadcasters will only assist diversity members if there is a definite mandate and percentage stipulated by the CRTC.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16771 This is logical as their stations do not promote or air this kind of programming or music.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16772 Regulations and/or guidelines?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16773 The answer is in your hands, the Chairman and Commissioners of the CRTC.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16774 Attached please find paragraphs from the University of Calgary comments that we all found very true.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16775 Also enclosed are four letters from our members Canadian Unity Press, Billy Bryan, Radames Nieves and Lula Lounge.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16776 The effectiveness of existing choices offered to Canadians and the effectiveness of content in cross‑media ownership situations.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16777 Our comments on this issue will be sent prior to October 5 after we do a thorough study in the matter.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16778 We would like to finish our comments with a thought taken from the 'diversity of apples':
"To conserve these varieties is to conserve genetic diversity, and conserving diversity is more than a question of nostalgia and taste, it is a question of the future of the fruit." (As read)
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16779 MS de la TORRE: This is our future and it is in your hands.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16780 Canada is a leader in diversity and your actions assure us that our future will be better, in a country that dares to be different, our Canada.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16781 I am looking forward to any questions.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16782 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16783 I would like to, first of all, ask the Canadian Diversity Producers Association.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16784 I looked at your four points ‑ or five point, sorry. And you start off, you are really focusing, if I understand it, very much, not in terms only of diversity of broadcasting, but also of diversity of employment in the broadcasting industry.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16785 And your special focus happens to be, if I understood you correctly, English broadcast based on an ethnic origin.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16786 And then you say, in your recommendation number one, you should require specific information about the hiring in front of and behind camera by broadcasters.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16787 Then number two says:
"The CRTC suggest realistic targets based on their evaluation of the reports with regards to diversity." (As read)
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16788 I wonder whether you could explain to me what you mean by realistic targets.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16789 I mean, I gather, number one, that we get a report from each broadcaster and it would show who they employ before and behind camera.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16790 Now, having got that data, it is over to us to set realistic targets.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16791 What do you expect us to do?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16792 MR. DE SILVA: Well, the suggestion, Mr. Chairman, would be for a process that would take place at the CRTC, in consultation with the broadcaster, to, based on what their revenues are, what their production targets are, what the independent production side of their business is, is to suggest what it could or should be.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16793 We are not suggesting at this point that any mandatory or order should be issued, but the process to be started to evaluated what would be ideal for those broadcasters to aspire to.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16794 At the moment, from what I understand, there is process of establishing particular targets or goals or anything like that.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16795 So that would be what we would suggest ‑ that, that process be engaged.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16796 THE CHAIRPERSON: And the goal is: the process of engaged targets are established, and then, as a result of that, the programming will reflect the diversity that you have created through those targets within the broadcasters employment ranks before or behind the camera.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16797 MR. DE SILVA: Correct.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16798 THE CHAIRPERSON: OK. Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16799 And, Mrs. de la Torre, you say something very similar in point 20 on page 2. You say:
"The most effective way to ensure that all Canadians are exposed to an appropriate plurality of these voices is via 'diversity owners and/or managers." (As read)
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16800 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is this ‑ I mean, that is a fairly strong statement. Is this based on some sort of studies or is this your conviction?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16801 MS de la TORRE: Well, it is my conviction. But, besides that, it is, if I analyze what all the broadcasters have been doing and how they have been working, there is always some kind of diversity background on the ones that ‑ although, because I can mention one or two that ‑ they do it on their own.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16802 And I wish all of them were like those one or two. But some of them take of the money or think of the money that it will bring, and that is where I see that maybe something by the CRTC will make them work.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16803 THE CHAIRPERSON: Why does the market not do that?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16804 I would have thought, if there is a market for visible programming, a visible minority program, ethnic program, language program, et cetera ‑
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16805 MS de la TORRE: Yeah.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16806 THE CHAIRPERSON: ‑ owners would go after it regardless of their background.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16807 By the same token, ethnic owners, if they can make a bigger buck by producing traditional programming rather than ethnic programming, would go after that too.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16808 Why do you suggest that there is a link between a person's ethnicity and the programming?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16809 MS de la TORRE: I will talk about myself personally.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16810 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16811 MS de la TORRE: I had a program at Energy 108, and when Shaw bought it we were ‑ by BBM, not me talking ‑ we were the number one in 12 plus. We were already bringing money to the station. And we were out.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16812 But Shaw was wise enough at that time to see the possibilities on the ethnicity and started to by Telelatino.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16813 THE CHAIRPERSON:
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16814 MS de la TORRE: When they first approached Telelatino, Telelatino said: OK, so can we be in your BDU? And they said: Until you sign you cannot be with the BDU.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16815 So they signed first. Then they took the 51 per cent. And now it is 100 per cent.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16816 Shaw ‑ and I am only talking about Shaw because that it is the only that is mine. I have been there.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16817 If you analyzed the community members that work within Shaw, that is making a lot of money with Telelatino, the only program that is live is a Cuban that lives in Miami and comes here once a month, does four shows, tapes four shows, and goes back.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16818 That is the only live program that there is.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16819 So I can focus on Shaw and say that Shaw is one of the stations that will only work with diversity if it brings them money.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16820 There are other stations that work with diversity without that.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16821 THE CHAIRPERSON: I see. OK.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16822 Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16823 MR. KIRK: Could I just make a comment?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16824 THE CHAIRPERSON: Absolutely.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16825 MR. KIRK: I think your point has a broader point.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16826 Say, in the radio business, for example, why aren't there more niche‑oriented or, say, a Caribbean‑oriented radio station?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16827 And part of it, I think, is just the supply problem. Certainly in major cities, in comparison to, say, U.S. markets, there are fewer frequencies available. And the economic model wins out.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16828 So, rock stations and country and adult contemporary stations take the pecking order down, and you are basically out of channels before some of these smaller niches get satisfied.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16829 So, I think that is the point you have heard in other presentations this week, and we are certainly re‑emphasizing it to say: You know, if you can licence more to serve, particularly in big markets, those niches will get filled.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16830 THE CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that a numbers' game? When you have a sufficient number from one language or from one ethnic group, then in effect it becomes very lucrative to serve them and you will have people going up to that market.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16831 MR. KIRK: Yes. I think that has happened. Certainly the growth of the ethnic broadcasting business in Canada is a tribute to that.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16832 I think now it is getting to bringing other world of music to ‑ other genres of music into the market, where there just isn't room at this point to add a lot of new stations.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16833 THE CHAIRPERSON: OK.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16834 Rita, you have some questions?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16835 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Yes.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16836 Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16837 Good morning.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16838 Ms de la Torre, I will follow up with you to begin with, and then I will have some questions for you, Mr. De Silva and Ms Scarlett.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16839 What were the reasons that Shaw gave you for cancelling the show?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16840 MS de la TORRE: No reasons. They are they owners.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16841 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: They just came in one day and said: Your show is gone even though it is number.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16842 MS de la TORRE: A letter.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16843 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And how did your advertisers react?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16844 MS de la TORRE: They were not with them anymore because what they wanted was this Spanglish show. So.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16845 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So, your advertisers, did they protest to Shaw?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16846 MS de la TORRE: Yeah, but it doesn't matter.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16847 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: It didn't change their minds at all.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16848 MS de la TORRE: Oh, no.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16849 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: You talked about Canadian content development initiatives has to be accessible to Canadian diversity members, and broadcasters will only assist diversity members if there is a definite mandate and percentage stipulated by the CRTC. That was in your oral presentation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16850 Did you make a presentation to Astral when the Astral standard deal was announced, for example?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16851 MS de la TORRE: No, I didn't. No, I didn't.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16852 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: OK.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16853 Do you have a process in place, you know, with your partners, that ‑
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16854 MS de la TORRE: Yes, we are going to do that.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16855 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑ could enable you to do that in the future ‑
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16856 MS de la TORRE: Yes.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16857 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: ‑ because perhaps that is an approach to take?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16858 MS de la TORRE: I have to say something about Astral. I don't live in Montreal, but Astral is one of the broadcasters that without ‑ only out of the neighbours and the people that hear Astral, are very good at giving airplay to diversity.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16859 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Perhaps, at licence renewal time, which there has to be commitment, that is somthing that you could consider.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16860 MS de la TORRE: Yes.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16861 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Making a formal present. Perhaps to sponsor your Canadian diversity star.
‑‑‑ Laughter
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16862 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: I like what you said about star, not idol.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16863 Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16864 Mr. De Silva, your association, how many members do you currently have?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16865 MR. DE SILVA: We currently have about 50. Roughly 50 members across the country. With a growing membership.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16866 We were hoping to actually announce the availability of our website, our revamped website, which would give you further details (www.cdpaonline.ca).
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16867 It is currently being revamped by one of our members in Vancouver. And maybe by the end of the day we can give you that information.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16868 That would give you much more information about the CDPA's membership.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16869 But roughly about 50. And we will be ‑ we have a target, Patricia, probably of about 150 ‑
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16870 MS SCARLETT: Yeah.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16871 MR. DE SILVA: ‑ by the end of ‑ by the end of the year.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16872 We are a fairly new organization. And, as you can imagine, with trying to ramp up with resources, et cetera, it has been challenging for us.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16873 But there is a tremendous amount of interest in terms of joining.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16874 And, when we first launched in Banff, in 2005, there was sort of a ground swell. And.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16875 That is the quick answer.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16876 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Do you have a criteria for membership.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16877 MR. DE SILVA: Pat can actually ‑ we have got a fairly detailed criteria, actually.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16878 MS SCARLETT: Anyone who is self‑identified as, you know, of certain ethnic background, be it cultural or racial, in fact, can become members of the organization.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16879 MR. DE SILVA: Sorry. Just a clarification, Madame Cugini, were you asking in terms of eligibility for membership or what is the range in terms of membership?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16880 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Eligibility for membership.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16881 MS SCARLETT: Yeah.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16882 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So the producer has to be a visible minority or from an ethno‑cultural background.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16883 MS SCARLETT: Self‑identified, yes.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16884 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Self‑identified.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16885 MR. DE SILVA: We are also opening it to associate members. So anyone of good will or interest in the issue who would like to be a part of the association can be.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16886 We are just sort of sorting out what the language will be for that.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16887 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: So, if there is someone who is not self‑identified but has produced or wants to produce programs that reflect diversity, they can become an associate member. Not a full member.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16888 MS SCARLETT: Correct.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16889 MR. DE SILVA: Correct.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16890 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: OK. Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16891 On the bottom of page three of your oral presentation, you say you would like to have access to adequate funding ‑ to adequate budgets ‑ on a consistent basis.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16892 We hear from the guilds all the time. We hear from producers all the time. We hear from ACTRA. And they have the same concerns that you do.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16893 Is your concern more unique than theirs?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16894 MR. DE SILVA: You were reaching for your microphone, Patricia.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16895 MS SCARLETT: Go ahead.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16896 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Have you rehearsed this answer?
‑‑‑ Laughter/Rires
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16897 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Just kidding.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16898 MR. DE SILVA: No.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16899 But we face the question, I think, on many occasions in different venues.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16900 I think obviously we face the same issues.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16901 It is an industry‑wide concern. You have heard, you know, obviously, as you said, ACTRA. Anybody who is an independent producer knows the issues of the scarcity of resources.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16902 So we face the same issues.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16903 However, we face additional issues of systemic nature in terms of the fact that, if the opportunities, for instances, for, let us just say, writers, to work on shows that didn't have any diversity content ‑ you know, for many, many years, they didn't have the opportunity to develop their skills. Likewise for directors. Or for actors.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16904 So we know. There have been numerous studies that talk about marginalization of visible minorities in the overall economic system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16905 And the same thing applies to our industry.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16906 In addition to the problems facing independent producers and actors and all creative people, visible minorities and members from ethno‑cultural communities face additional systemic problems that make it even harder.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16907 I think, if you spoke, even to people who have achieved, you know, a fairly high level of recognition and achievement in the industry, people like Deepa Mehta, for instance, that we all know from her wonderful films, will say very directly that there are issues that visible minorities face that are unique and additional to the ones that are faced by mainstream producers.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16908 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: One of the things that broadcasters always demonstrate to us is, when they want to commission a producer to produce a certain program or in their ‑ the term escapes me.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16909 But, in their criteria for engaging an independent producer, they always highlight the clause in there that says that the productions ‑ you know, that the producers must endeavour to reflect diversity as much as possible.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16910 Are you saying that, that is just simply not enough on the part of broadcasters to put that in their documents?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16911 MS SCARLETT: The answer is yes, in that, in more instances than not, what ends up happening is that the actual ownership of the production is by another company that brings in talent.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16912 And often time people at a fairly junior level that may get to work on that one project, but it may be a long time before they ever get to work on anything again.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16913 So there is no consistency.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16914 It is like any skill that you develop and you want to gain mastery over. You have to work at it all the time.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16915 And this is not to say that all producers do not experience this challenge of being able to work consistently.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16916 But, because there are so few projects that are created where people of visible minority can work behind and in front of the camera, the challenge is even greater.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16917 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Just one final area that I want to touch up, which the Chair already has, and that is your second recommendation where you talk about realistic targets.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16918 Mr. De Silva, you know very well about the CAB's taskforce report on cultural diversity, and that taskforce spent two years, just about, talking to broadcasters and to community groups and to representatives of visible minority groups, persons with disabilities, representatives from all four of the designated groups, and the taskforce heard consistently that setting targets or quotas is akin to affirmative action.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16919 And we all know the criticism of affirmative action.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16920 Are you not basically asking us to take affirmative action here, in your recommendation number two?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16921 MR. DE SILVA: Well, I think what we are asking ‑
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16922 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: And five, thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16923 MR. DE SILVA: I think what we are asking is for the Commission to recognize the fact that there is a real problem here.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16924 And, until you recognize that there is a problem, you won't take any measures to rectify that.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16925 And the real problem is the. I was trying to use the word 'massive'. But the considerable under‑representation and the continuing under‑representation despite all the efforts of reporting and initiatives, the problem being that the initiatives are not consistent for the representation of visible minorities at all levels. Ownership levels. Representation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16926 I believe the CAB study focused primarily on representation in the industry in terms on on‑camera.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16927 But the problem is much larger than that if the producers and the owners of the system aren't participating in that system. They are not going to commission programs that require actors, people on camera.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16928 So it becomes a systemic problem that needs a particular ‑ you know, a very strong response.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16929 Now, I know the work 'affirmative action'. I used to work for the Human Rights Commission in Ontario.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16930 At that time, the word 'affirmative action' was in favor, I suppose, because felt that those measures were required.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16931 It has gone out of favor.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16932 There are concerns that, by setting quotas, we are in fact doing reverse discrimination, et cetera.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16933 But we all, you know, in all our public policy in government, we do set quotas. We do set targets. We do realize that if we want to solve a problem we have to take direct action.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16934 So whatever terminology that is used to encourage, to assist the industry ‑ because I think, you know, for instance, in radio, unless those targets were set for Canadian production, we wouldn't have a thriving industry today.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16935 You could have called that affirmative action. I imagine it was.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16936 So, if we say that, in a similar way the CRTC took action on the radio side for Canadian music production, which was very successful, in that same vein, we would recommend that the CRTC do the same thing.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16937 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: One thing that surprises me about this is that you are asking us basically to exclusively play a numbers game when it comes to representation of visible minorities, whether it is behind the camera or in front of the camera, when during those two years of the taskforce report, and as you know I was part of that taskforce, one of the major elements was portrayal, rather than a numbers' game, where I would rather see one positive role model than 100 stereotypes of a certain ethnic group or visible minority group.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16938 And yet you don't speak at all in your presentation about portrayal. You focus exclusively on a numbers' game.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16939 MR. DE SILVA: I think because ‑ as you say, I think the CAB study did a very good job of portrayal, but I think the point we were repeating, or making, is that portrayal on camera ‑‑ and I think, if you look at the Nordicity study, which looked at portrayal, a study done by Solutions Research, it showed that while portrayal has increased, it is really in the background roles of busboys, girl Fridays, waiters in restaurants. The secondary roles really have increased, and very, very little in terms of primary roles.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16940 So while portrayal is important, for us, in terms of our members, who are producers primarily, it is the opportunities that exist behind the camera, not just in front of the camera, in terms of the access we have to resources for producing television series and feature films, the things that Canadians want to watch, and the programming that really tells the story about us being part of society.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16941 So portrayal is important, but who gets to tell the stories and participate in the overall benefits of the industry is, if not as important, more important.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16942 COMMISSIONER CUGINI: Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16943 Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, those are my questions.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16944 THE CHAIRPERSON: Stuart, I believe you have a question.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16945 COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Yes, I have a couple of more questions, following up, if I may, on Ms Cugini's questions as to the end result you want ‑‑ the goal on portrayal.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16946 Acting on the assumption that there is strength in numbers ‑‑ the bigger your organization is, the louder its voice will be ‑‑ it seems to me that you have, in my view, unnecessarily narrowed the membership list, and I wondered about that.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16947 If I wrote it down correctly ‑‑ I took some notes as you were speaking ‑‑ "self‑identified, ethnic background, cultural or racial" was basically the formula, and yet, in your text, you speak of other groups that would have comparable complaints, I assume ‑‑ handicapped people, blind people ‑‑ well, that's a type of handicap ‑‑ people who feel discriminated against because of age or gender or sexual orientation or whatever, and I just wondered why you wouldn't broaden the group.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16948 If what you are trying to do is get your voice heard and get some fairness in the system, why so narrow a focus?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16949 MS SCARLETT: We did add later, in fact, other people who had issues concerning diversity. They were also invited to be part of the organization.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16950 Our core focus was on the ones that we identified, but it was certainly open to others to join.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16951 For example, people with disabilities, people of different sexual orientation, fine, they could join, but that was not the core mandate of the organization.
` COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: If I understood you correctly, they get a kind of associate membership, they don't get full membership.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16952 MS SCARLETT: It is not unlike WIFT. Men may become associate members, but it is a women's organization.
` COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Right. In that sense, if I join WIFT, it is because I support it but don't expect to get anything more out of it than a better world overall, because I am not a woman.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16953 MS SCARLETT: Sure.
` COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: But if I am handicapped and join an organization like yours, I, too, might expect to be seen on screen, and I, too, might hope that you would broaden your focus.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16954 So I would get more than a better world, I would get a better world for me, too, as well as overall.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16955 MS SCARLETT: My comments were not with regard to inclusion in terms of productions but in terms of participation in the organization itself, and the mandate of the organization is to provide training and professional development for all members of the association, whether or not they are self‑identified, visible minorities, et cetera.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16956 MR. DE SILVA: If I may add, Commissioner Langford, I think you raise a very interesting point, as well. This is a dilemma that, I think, many organizations face, where to focus their energies.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16957 We are very aware and are quite engaged and connected with people in the disability movement. I was the executive producer for a television series for the CBC on disability called "D‑Net", and many of my close friends are involved in the disability movement.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16958 This is a dilemma for us: where do we put our scarce resources, and how do we most effectively work on behalf of our members.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16959 It is an evolving thing. There is no question about it that strength in numbers, which is always effective, is what we seek, and we will be looking for ways to incorporate that as much as possible in our organization.
` COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Maybe even get aging White gentlemen like me, who find they just aren't wanted in the movies any more. I might join.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16960 MR. DE SILVA: I don't think the statistics bear that out, quite frankly, Commissioner Langford.
` COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Well, I am not willing to undergo a sex change, so there goes the career.
‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires
` COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: I have one other question. Are you carrying this campaign, if I may call it that, to other fora?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16961 In other words, you have come to us, the regulator, and, clearly, you are probably going to government, as well, in other ways, but what about journalism schools and schools that teach cinematography and teach film and stuff? Are you putting the pressure on them, as well?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16962 Obviously, if you don't get trained people, they are going to have a harder time getting a job.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16963 MS SCARLETT: Yes, we will be approaching, certainly, some of the tertiary institutions that teach television and film.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16964 Through the organization we are developing an extensive training and professional development program, and one of the first initiatives that we have created is something we are calling "The Inside Series", which is a networking opportunity. It takes the format of inside the actors' studio. We will invite people from various independent production companies to come into this forum, where they are interviewed, and other members of the film and television production community, in fact, can get to know them better, as well as some of the things they are producing.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16965 In fact, our website is being set up to create a nationwide online community of independent filmmakers.
` COMMISSIONER LANGFORD: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16966 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. I think those are our questions. Thank you for your contribution.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16967 MR. DE SILVA: Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16968 THE CHAIRPERSON: Madam Boulet?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16969 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16970 I will now invite the next two intervenors to come forward, the Aboriginal Peoples Television Network Incorporated and the Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.
‑‑‑ Pause
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16971 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. LaRose.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16972 MR. LAROSE: Good morning.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16973 THE SECRETARY: Mr. LaRose, we will start with your presentation. You will have ten minutes.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16974 Please, go ahead.
INTERVENTION
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16975 MR. LAROSE: Thank you.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16976 Good morning, Chairperson von Finckenstein and Commissioners. I am Jean LaRose, Chief Executive Officer of Aboriginal Peoples Television Network.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16977 Thank you for the invitation to appear at this hearing.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16978 It has been a full week, so I will get straight to the point. Let me discuss first how the CRTC has had a huge impact on the diversity of voices and Aboriginal peoples' participation in broadcasting.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16979 What is the source of this impact? It's quite simple: direct regulation by the CRTC.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16980 Three elements of the CRTC's regulation of APTN have been absolutely critical to our success. First, APTN's national licence translates into a mandate to serve southern Canada as well as the north, which has resulted directly in more diversity in the programming that APTN brings to air compared to our predecessor, TVNC.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16981 Second, APTN would not have achieved the level of distribution that we have without the benefit of the CRTC's Section 9.1(h) Distribution Order.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16982 Third, APTN's regulated wholesale fee has become a stable source of continued funding for APTN, which APTN spends directly and entirely to increase the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the broadcasting system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16983 Each of these elements depends on the CRTC's direct intervention under the Broadcasting Act.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16984 This kind of regulation is not a relic of the past, as the Commission sometimes hears people say. For Aboriginal peoples, this kind of regulation is a foundation for the future.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16985 I can tell you that the internet and mobile broadcasting look completely different from the vantage point of an established broadcaster than they do for someone who is not already in the industry.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16986 Our renewal in 2005 was also significant, in that it has allowed us to take greater advantage of the opportunity we now have.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16987 We are developing strong partnerships with other broadcasters, and producing new, higher budget drama series, which would have been impossible to consider in our first term.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16988 We have established credibility and recognition within the industry, and, more importantly, a growing audience of viewers.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16989 This would never have been possible without the intervention and support of the regulator.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16990 From our perspective and from the perspective of all Aboriginal peoples, increasing industry consolidation is somewhat less significant than the launch and support of APTN as a means for our own participation in the system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16991 Also, we do not view a level of industry consolidation as being necessarily a bad thing for APTN or Aboriginal peoples. Canada needs strong media companies. To some extent, consolidation can present opportunities for smaller entities like APTN.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16992 We already have expertise in reaching a fast‑growing sector of the audience that is becoming one of interest to Canada's corporate players. I believe that those who ignore APTN and our audience are being shortsighted, and some media executives I have spoken to share this belief.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16993 Our point is just that the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the broadcasting system owes a great deal to direct regulatory intervention by the CRTC.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16994 The voices that oppose this kind of intervention and call it unnecessary are more troubling to us than industry consolidation on its own.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16995 While we don't see industry consolidation as one of the most pressing issues for Aboriginal peoples, we fully support the Commission's effort to encourage the greatest possible diversity of voices in the system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16996 We are not, as a broadcaster, indifferent to consolidation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16997 We need more than just a couple of strong broadcasters, and we need more than just a couple of distributors in Canada. We especially need them to operate in an environment where the rules are clear and the policy objectives are well spelled out.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16998 Competition between media enterprises translates into a competition of ideas, and getting the best information out to the public in the best way possible.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 16999 We feel this kind of competition every day at APTN, and I am confident that every other media enterprise experiences something similar.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17000 Looking at the role of the independent production community, we have found that independent production has been the surest way to bring diversity into the system in a direct way. Until APTN, Aboriginal independent producers had few outlets and very scarce resources. APTN has helped to grow this sector and to produce programs for broadcast on APTN and on the commercial networks with Aboriginal points of view that would not otherwise have been seen.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17001 The Commission is correct to encourage independent production as one of the most direct means of ensuring that the system taps into a wide range of voices. Too much reliance on in‑house production by broadcasters could have a significant negative impact on independent production overall.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17002 In our case, for example, there is seldom a show produced by an independent Aboriginal producer that does not rely on licence fees from another broadcaster.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17003 If those other broadcasters stopped relying as much on independent producers, the opportunities for Aboriginal independent producers would decrease, as would APTN's ability to trigger those productions and present the same diversity of voices.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17004 While APTN does not oppose a degree of industry consolidation, we would not go to an extreme length and suggest that there is no cause for concern or intervention in these areas.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17005 The Commission needs to ensure that opportunities for entry in our system remain open, and to put forward policies to encourage the greatest possible diversity of voices and viewpoints.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17006 The Commission has been exploring a number of mechanisms that the Commission might use to look at media consolidation and promote diversity. Let me be upfront: I don't have the answer for you. But, if you don't mind, I will review some of the principles that could be taken into consideration, from our perspective at APTN.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17007 First, the Commission should be concerned about ownership concentration in the broadcasting industry and across other major forms of media, such as the print media.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17008 Some have said, in effect, that there is no concern about consolidation and cross‑ownership, but we believe those views are overstated.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17009 Second, we need strong media enterprises, but the control of multiple, influential media outlets should be accompanied by a responsibility to promote editorial diversity across those outlets and elsewhere in the system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17010 Third, the benefits that are proposed in connection with merger transactions should be benefits that encourage a diversity of voices in the consolidated enterprise and elsewhere in the system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17011 If the Commission does away with tangible benefits, then the Commission should develop more secure and transparent mechanisms to support diversity.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17012 Fourth, as the market power of participants increases with consolidation, the Commission should implement direct regulatory safeguards to protect those that have less power but are important to preserve a diversity of voices.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17013 In the area of tangible benefits, for example, we have proposed that the CRTC's benefits policy in the television sector should be structured to promote diversity. We have suggested a one‑third, one‑third and one‑third approach. An entity proposing benefits would allocate one‑third to independent production funds, one‑third to support broadcasting initiatives designed by the applicant, and the remaining one‑third to areas of the Commission's priority to promote diversity of voices.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17014 Naturally, APTN believes that initiatives that support the participation of Aboriginal peoples in the system, who have been and, I would argue, remain the most marginalized and invisible in mainstream commercial television, should be a part of the benefits that promote a diversity of voices.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17015 We also believe that it is important that benefits that are directed to promote Aboriginal participation should be administered, as much as possible, by Aboriginal peoples themselves.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17016 Regarding the question of market power and consolidation, we have pointed out in our written submission that one area where APTN has been disadvantaged due to the market power of some large integrated BDUs is our channel placement.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17017 I was pleased to see that the Dunbar/Leblanc Report brought that issue back on the radar screen.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17018 That is the type of regulatory area that the Commission could use to level the impact of media consolidation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17019 We know the Commission will soon be looking at the BDU regulatory environment, and we are looking forward to reviewing BDU carriage issues with the CRTC at that time.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17020 Thank you for the opportunity to present our views. I would welcome your questions.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17021 THE SECRETARY: Thank you, Mr. LaRose.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17022 We will now proceed with Mr. Jamie Hill of the Aboriginal Voices Radio Inc.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17023 I would ask you to introduce your colleague, and you will have ten minutes for your presentation, Mr. Hill.
INTERVENTION
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17024 MR. HILL: Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Members of the Panel, Commission Staff and ladies and gentlemen. My name is Jamie Hill, and I am the Chief Executive Officer of Aboriginal Voices Radio.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17025 With me is J. Robert Wood, an advisor with over 30 years of experience in the broadcasting industry.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17026 I am now ready to begin the presentation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17027 I would like to thank the Commission for the opportunity to provide comments in this important Diversity of Voices proceeding.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17028 AVR is a non‑profit organization, founded to facilitate the development of a national Aboriginal radio service that broadcasts in large urban centres in Canada.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17029 Thanks to the CRTC, AVR has been granted licences to operate stations in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, Saskatoon, Kitchener, Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. It has been extremely expensive, but all of these stations are now on the air, with the exception of recently approved licences to serve Regina and Saskatoon.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17030 We are working right now to add a number of improvements to the service. These service improvements will be heard on the air in each city very soon.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17031 Our overarching mission is to help improve the lives of Aboriginal people. We intend to do this by filling the need for a high‑quality Aboriginal programming service in urban centres, where the majority of Canada's Aboriginal people now live.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17032 Despite the critical role that radio can play to help nurture and reflect Aboriginal values, aspirations and culture, Aboriginal people in Canada's largest cities had little or no access to Canada's radio broadcasting system before AVR came along.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17033 The word "unique" truly applies to AVR. There is no service like ours in the Canadian broadcasting system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17034 Our diversity within the radio sector is characterized by the fact that AVR is the only service in southern Canada, and perhaps all of Canada that features Aboriginal artists in virtually all of its music programming on a dedicated basis, and AVR's programming is specifically targeted to serve the needs and interests of Aboriginal people all across Canada, whether of Indian, Inuit or Métis background.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17035 Musically, we are proud of what is now blossoming at AVR to foster the development of Canadian content, and especially Aboriginal content.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17036 We provide a national window of opportunity for hundreds of Aboriginal Canadian artists who have historically been denied access to the airwaves of the CBC, private sector commercial stations, ethnic stations, most campus and community stations, and the overwhelming majority of Aboriginal stations.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17037 In public affairs programming, AVR's capability is to offer a unique perspective on current affairs that addresses the long‑neglected needs of a community whose views and tastes have been under‑represented and misrepresented in the broadcasting system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17038 Through these and other factors, AVR offers a broad, rich and varied programming mixture that enhances diversity in the Canadian broadcasting system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17039 I would like to comment on AVR's financial viability.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17040 Unfortunately, funding from broadcaster benefits packages, averaging less than $1 million per year, is not enough to operate radio stations in nine cities across Canada at a level of service and quality that other Canadians enjoy in non‑Aboriginal radio broadcasting.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17041 Moreover, given that the spectrum is almost exhausted, benefits packages are not a sufficiently reliable source of funding to secure the long‑term viability of a national radio service.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17042 In order to continue to contribute to the two primary goals of the Broadcasting Act, namely, Canadian content and access to the system for all Canadians, AVR must find a way to secure adequate, stable, long‑term funding.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17043 In its Call for Comments with respect to this review, the Commission asks whether Commission policies need to be adapted in order to ensure that the voices of Aboriginal and ethnic Canadians, as well as those with disabilities, have appropriate access to the system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17044 In AVR's view, the Commission already has the regulatory tools at its disposal to provide the funding needed to facilitate such access.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17045 Therefore, in order to ensure that urban Aboriginal people have appropriate access to the system, the Commission must be prepared to utilize these tools to ensure that AVR has appropriate resources to do its work.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17046 This would be consistent with the Commission's position enunciated in its Native Broadcasting Policy, Public Notice CRTC 1990‑89, in which it said:
"In the Commission's view, it is essential that Aboriginal broadcasters receive sufficient funds to enable them to fulfil their responsibilities."
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17047 Increased consolidation defies the idea of having diversity in a system. I believe that the way to ensure there is diversity in the system is to approve mechanisms for long‑term financial viability for organizations such as AVR, keeping in mind that there are mechanisms in place for the long‑term financial viability of commercial broadcasters.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17048 The Aboriginal community is Canada's poorest and most vulnerable community, for historical reasons which are not of its doing. Access to the broadcasting system through a national Aboriginal radio service is critical to strengthening the Aboriginal community in its ongoing efforts to overcome the challenges it now faces as a result of the historical legacy.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17049 Our focus throughout the entire history of AVR has been on mere survival, not the high‑quality programming that Aboriginal people ought to have access to like other Canadians do.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17050 Without sufficient funding, AVR will continue to be at risk, operating an underfunded service at the margins of the Canadian broadcasting system.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17051 Such a prospect would mean more of the same, as far as the historical legacy of Aboriginal people is concerned.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17052 We do look forward to working with the Commission to secure the long‑term viability of AVR and, by extension, provide appropriate access to the system that free over‑the‑air radio can provide Canada's poorest community.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17053 That concludes our presentation, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission. Thank you for listening. I would be pleased to answer any questions you have with respect to this presentation.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17054 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17055 I will deal first with APTN, and then with AVR, and then my colleagues will pitch in.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17056 Mr. LaRose, thank you, first of all, for the very complimentary comments you made about the CRTC. We are not used to hearing such laudation. It is nice to see that some of the things we do actually work, and I appreciate it.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17057 You mentioned that you have 9.1(h) status, and that that is part of the key to your success. We have had other people appearing before us, even at this hearing, who were saying, that being the case, it means that you have an existence, but that's about all. You can still be, more or less, ill treated by the BDUs. You can be moved in the tiering and the channel placement, et cetera. Negotiations may be very arduous, and what you get on the one hand, you lose on the other.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17058 Do you have any experience along those lines?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17059 I don't want you to mention specific BDUs. I don't want to get you into trouble, I would just be interested to know to what extent is the 9.1(h) status the security that you need, and to what extent it still does not give you the strength to negotiate on a safe basis and get predictability with your BDUs.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17060 MR. LAROSE: I would suggest that, without 9.1(h), we would have absolutely nothing going for us. 9.1(h), at least, ensures that we are on the airwaves. It, at least, ensures that we have a position on the dial.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17061 It certainly hasn't been the be‑all and end‑all when it comes to channel placement, for one thing. When you consider that, as a network, we are supposed to be on basic carriage, as of this morning, I just found out that we are now 100. We have just been moved up to 100 in a major market by a major BDU.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17062 I have an older set that doesn't go to 100, so if I don't buy additional, or change TVs, or what have you, I no longer ‑‑ I don't consider that I am on basic any more. So I think that has been an issue.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17063 9.1(h) has been very helpful in ensuring that we get funding, that we receive the subscriber fee, and that we are somewhere on the channel, but it hasn't been the be‑all and end‑all.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17064 As I said in my presentation, I think that is where, in areas of consolidation, the Commission might be able to look at creating new policy areas that would deal with such issues, that would address such concerns, to make sure that the objectives you set forth, as you did with 9.1(h), are not in one way or another undermined by weaknesses in other areas.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17065 THE CHAIRPERSON: What about tiering and packaging?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17066 MR. LAROSE: Again, in the area of tiering and packaging, our experience has been that we often are sort of marginalized or set aside. We are not very well packaged. We certainly are quite invisible sometimes on some of the channels that promote what is appearing on‑air.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17067 Forgive me, but the term in English escapes me right now.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17068 I think what it shows is that quite often there is still a resistance by some of the BDUs to actually promote us fairly, as they do with other services. That is still a concern that we have.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17069 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where would you see yourself logically being placed, from your point of view, in a package?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17070 MR. LAROSE: In all honesty, I think that, as Canada's fourth national broadcaster, we should be right there with CTV, Global and CBC. We should be right before CHUM.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17071 I think we should be in the top 20, top 25 numbers. We should have that position, which many others, in fact ‑‑ interestingly enough, some of the smaller BDUs, who have placed APTN anywhere from Channel 2 to Channel 20, have actually found that it is in their interest to have us there, because we do have an audience, and it serves them well to market us and place us in a good position.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17072 THE CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned in your presentation the importance that independent producers place, and the difficulty that you have ‑‑ the same as we heard from the CFTPA, et cetera. They are pushing very strongly, and we are supporting them to establish a Terms of Trade Agreement with the broadcasters, so that most of these negotiations ‑‑ there is a whole set of terms that are automatic, and you basically deal with a few outstanding items.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17073 I assume that you are in support of that.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17074 Do you know what the CFTPA has been doing? Have you been working with them? Are you part of that working group, so that whatever gets negotiated applies to Aboriginal producers the same way as it does to others?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17075 MR. LAROSE: We are involved. I haven't been the individual directly involved in that. That has been left with the director of the Programming Department, but they have been in touch with the CFTPA. We are involved in that group quite closely.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17076 Certainly, those concerns are concerns that we have, as well. Quite often our producers find themselves at a disadvantage when they are negotiating with major broadcasters.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17077 What helps many of them is that, quite often, if it is shared or if there is another window with APTN, they turn to us to help negotiate some of those terms, and I think that we have established a certain credibility with other broadcasters.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17078 But, certainly, they would benefit from overall standards that would help them protect their interests, to the extent that all producers need to have their interests protected.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17079 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, you say you're not against consolidation, you see the need for strong players. On the other hand, you sort of mention that we have to worry of the process here and we should make sure that the various parts of the media are included when we talk about editorial voices and it's not just media, but also newspapers.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17080 So, do I read into this that you basically support the CBC's first suggestion that for markets, you have a two out of three roles that you can own TV and radio, but you can't own TV, radio and newspaper, or any or two of those three?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17081 MR. LAROSE: Well, to the extent that they would be the only three in that market obviously that's ‑‑ to me that would be ‑‑ that's a given.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17082 If there is ‑‑ I am not, I haven't got a specific thought on when it comes to print media as incorporated into them, but I certainly do believe that a certain level of media consolidation has promoted a sort of a strength in the industry that can then be leveraged by both the Commission and smaller players to provide access to some of the diversity of voices that we are discussing here.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17083 As an example, a stronger CTV in my mind has certainly been beneficial in helping us develop news bureaux across the country than providing us, funding for drama series.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17084 So, I think that in the area where a player becomes stronger financially and stronger, a stronger entity where there is public policy to ensure that the benefits apply or are spread around to others, I think that's where consolidation to me has been positive.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17085 A weak player would have great difficulty in being able to support whether it's an aboriginal voice or another diverse voice because they would have difficulty in maintaining their own. So, that's where I see that certain consolidation and strengthening of some of the players has benefited us.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17086 THE CHAIRPERSON: When I visited you and you pointed out to me your very successful partnership with CTV, to take one example.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17087 But, surely that also strengths to CTV, I mean, and the argument you've just made could one say just the opposite, could one say, for instance, the new Rogers CITI, if we approve that a transaction will ‑‑ and put aside from a partnership as you would make themselves in effect be able to reach a wider audience and have a better coverage and, therefore, we can ‑‑ actually several owners rather than as in a few owners is to your advantage rather than to your disadvantage?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17088 MR. LAROSE: That's quite correct. But several strong owners is to our advantage. If there were several or one strong owner and several weak ones, I think the strong one would be to our benefit, the weak ones may not be as much.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17089 I mean, I think in this case, you're quite right that we can turn the argument around and that's certainly where I think the policy area needs to come in to play to ensure that if we do have more than one or two or three players, but they are strong players, that they need to be mandated within the framework of the regulations to ensure that there is place for the diversity of voices and that those voices are heard.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17090 THE CHAIRPERSON: Your first recommendation says that CRTC and I take a ‑‑ sorry, I'm looking at the wrong ones. On benefits; we have a policy, you are very complementary you say it has done a lot for you, et cetera.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17091 Is it good enough for us to maintain our existing benefits policy or does it need to be fine tuned in this regard, to your concerns?
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17092 MR. LAROSE: I think fine tuning would greatly enhance it. The benefits policy per see has been very good to APTN. There could be some improvements in how the benefits are sometimes directed.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 17093 In some cases they are directed to the aboriginal production community where basically it's an indirect way for the broadcaster or the BDU to resend the money back to itself by providing the money to an independent producer for programming for their own entity and sometimes that programming isn't given the opportunity to be aired at a time where it actually has an impact. So, from our end, I think a lot of the benefit could be fine tuned.
listnum "WP List 3" \l 1