TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Best Western Inn                      Best Western Inn

2402 Highway 97 North                 2402, autoroute 97 Nord

Kelowna, B.C.                         Kelowna (C.-B.)

October 31, 2007                      Le 31 octobre 2007

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

            VARIOUS BROADCASTING APPLICATIONS /

            PLUSIEURS DEMANDES EN RADIODIFFUSION

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Rita Cugini                       Chairperson / Présidente

Ronald Williams                   Commissioner / Conseiller

Michel Morin                      Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTES:

Cindy Ventura                     Secretary / Secrétaire

Véronique Lehoux                  Legal Counsel /

Conseillère juridique

Francine Laurier-Guy              Hearing Manager /

Gérante de l'audience

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Best Western Inn                  Best Western Inn

2402 Highway 97 North             2402, autoroute 97 Nord

Kelowna, B.C.                     Kelowna (C.-B.)

October 31, 2007                  Le 31 octobre 2007

- iv -

           TABLE OF CONTENTS / TABLE DES MATIÈRES

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PHASE I

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

Northern Native Broadcasting                      284 / 1532

Radio CJVR Ltd.                                   331 / 1767

In-House Communications Inc.                      386 / 2040

Deep Waters Media Inc.                            421 / 2222

Corus Radio Company                               477 / 2494

PHASE II

No interventions / Aucune intervention

PHASE III

INTERVENTION BY / INTERVENTION PAR:

The Cruzeros and Cruzeroo Music Corporation       505 / 2632

Gerry Fraser                                      519 / 2699

                      Kelowna, B.C. / Kelowna (C.‑B.)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Wednesday, October 31, 2007

    at 0830 / L'audience reprend mercredi 31

    octobre 2007 à 0830

LISTNUM 1 \l 1 \s 15281528             THE SECRETARY:  Hello and welcome.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11529             We will now proceed with item 7, which is an application for Northern Native Broadcasting (Terrace) B.C. for a licence to operate an English‑ and Native‑languages FM type B Native radio programming undertaking in Kelowna, British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11530             The new station would operate on frequency 96.3, channel 242B, with an average effective radiated power of 7,100 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 20,000 watts, antenna height of minus 89 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11531             Appearing for the applicant is Mr. Ron Bartlett.  Please introduce your colleagues and you will have 20 minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11532             MR. BARTLETT:  Thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.  I would like to introduce Lynne Terbasket, who has had 20 years service with our Northern Native Network, and also William Wesley with the same service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11533             My name is Ron Bartlett.  I have been in broadcasting off and on over the last 30 years.  My First Nations background comes from Kittsumkalum Village.  I am a Tsimpshian, as well as Lynne is from the Okanagan.  She is a band member of the Similkameen band and William Wesley is a band member of the Laxkw'alaams band.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11534             We are proposing to model our continuation of our provincial network similar to our northern network, and we would just like to review with you how we currently serve the First Nations communities of northern B.C. and would like to mirror that for our southern service.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11535             We at Northern Native Broadcasting are dedicated towards servicing the First Nations communities in our areas, in the areas of language, culture, communication and entertain.  Northern Native Broadcasting or CFNR has become the voice of aboriginal peoples in northern B.C.  We are a network that is being heard in over 45 communities, north to the Yukon border, west including all the coastal villages from Bella Bella to the Queen Charlotte Islands and the Alaska border, Kincolith community.  We are serving as far south as Williams Lake, Quesnell and the east as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11536             We have become an important part of the daily lives of the listening area, including the remote communities, as well as the urban centres that we serve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11537             We have a website, myCFNR.com, which our station has been streamed.  We are being heard world wide.  We were one of the first stations in Canada to have a streaming audio on our website.  We serve eight different tribal groups in our listening area.  Each tribal group has a completely different language and custom.  This is reflective of the large and diverse number of different languages and cultures throughout B.C.  This prompted us to taking a different approach towards implementing language and culture components.  We have developed some community radio models.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11538             Another approach we have been successful at is promoting our major community events and be directly involved with these events as they take place.  A lot of them take place in small villages far away from the urban centres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11539             The following is a more detailed description of examples of our involvement in the communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11540             Community radio.  We are currently developing a community radio program made available to most First Nations communities in our listening area that wish to undertake such a program.  This will enable a community to air a one‑hour program focused on their language and culture and community events.  To date we have provided hands‑on training and assistance to the communities of Kitimaat (Haisla) and New Aiyansh, a Nisga'a community.  Each community will be able to correct to CFNR's broadcast and begin their own one‑hour programming which covers health and wellness, local news and views, a focus on Elders, language, youth and music.  This initiative is in its early stages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11541             First Nations direct community involvement.  We have been invited to co‑sponsor and broadcast community and cultural events as well as sports events.  We travel to a fair number of these communities near and far to become involved in their events by radio promotion and assisting in planning, as well as offering our announcers as MCs.  We also broadcast live from their communities, showcasing their culture and people.  This approach has been a win/win for both communities and CFNR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11542             Examples of some of the events.  The Hobiyee.  It is our First Nations New Year in the north.  We have had up to 4500 First Nations people from the eight different tribal groups come together for a celebration similar to the Chinese New Year, we have our Native First Nations New Year in February.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11543             Last year we celebrated in New Aiyansh.  We had a remote broadcast from that village.  Such an event has proven to be an economic boost to their community.  CFNR normally pre‑promotes the events for up to three weeks prior to broadcasting and showcasing the event to our network.  A number of our staff members spent the entire three days in the community assisting with broadcasting, as well as all aspects of organization of the event.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11544             I pre‑planned the event with the organizers a good six months ahead of time.  If you do the math, 4500 people spend an average of about $100 a day.  They left about $150,000 in that small village in those three days.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11545             CFNR has worked directly with other communities broadcasting live and promoting their cultural events.  Example, Kitimaat village, a Haisla community, their Music and Friends Festival.  We brought over 40,000 people.  Skidegate on Haida Gwaii, they call us to come over and broadcast their Skidegate Days.  We broadcast this last year for many other communities, including New Aiyansh, Terrace, Prince Rupert for National Aboriginal Days, Nisga'a Cultural Days, Lax Galts ap, Career and Employment Fair.  We assisted in planning and bringing together many stakeholders from industry and employers and also had 1500 people coming looking for careers and jobs, and we matched them together along with learning institutions to stream what they needed for education.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11546             We did this in a small village of 500 people 90 miles outside of the urban centre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11547             We have been invited to Moricetown, Gitanmaxx, Kitsum Kalum.  We promoted their Friends of the Wild Salmon.  Kitselas and Dease Lake up near the Yukon border, as well, we were doing remote broadcasting from there.  We have been in Massett, Iskut, Lax Kawlaams, Metlakatla.  Incidentally, we have 45 communities and we have been in most of them.  My job is to be in at least one or two every week, communicating with them and bringing their needs out.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11548             Over the past year, we have visited these communities to participate directly with their events and speaking directly with the people at the community level, making sure we are engaging them and bringing out their issues and successes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11549             The All Native Basketball Tournament.  We have been the official broadcast sponsor of the All Native Basketball Tournament for approximately 20 years.  This tournament has been in existence for nearly 50 years and currently involves approximately 50 teams broken into four divisions.  Thousands of fans from all over B.C. attend this annual event which lasts for seven days.  There is 5,000 of our people that come to Prince Rupert and they will spend up to $2.5 million during the tournament.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11550             This event has proven to be an effective model for communities and friends to connect and interact, as well as continuing new friendships.  Another aspect of this gathering is also the sharing of traditional food and selling of First Nations arts and crafts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11551             Our working relationship has proven to be a win‑win with our broadcasting live play‑by‑play of the games throughout the entire week.  The tournament began during an era when the potlatch ceremony and gathering of nations was outlawed.  It was illegal for us to gather.  This tournament has proven to be an effective alternative to the traditional method.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11552             William Wesley, who was with me, who is of Tsimshian ancestry, received an award from the All Native Basketball Tournament Committee for 20 years of service in broadcasting and hosting the play‑by‑play commentary of the All Native Basketball games.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11553             Emergency preparedness.  The First Nations Emergency Services recently communicated with CFNR.  They visited our office and asked us to assist in working with the remote villages within our network to enable us to be the communication link for emergency messages.  Taking our communication responsibility seriously and further, to date we have worked directly with Skidegate, Kitimaat Village and New Aiyansh.  They are able to cut into our signal and broadcast emergency messages to their community members.  For the rest of the communities, we receive their messages from them and broadcast them over our network.  The community members are instructed to listen to CFNR for direction during an emergency.  The flooding that took place in our listening area during the past summer proved to be a success in our communication.  We had staff broadcast live 24 hours a day updates and safety notices to the communities that we serve.  We were recognized locally for our effort.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11554             In the event of tsunamis or forest fires, we are also the link along the coast and rural communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11555             Programming.  Exclusive five hours of aboriginal music programming per week.  Canadians First Nations artists are featured.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11556             Enhancing Canada's First Nations cultural fabric by offering a wide variety of First Nations music, we serve the many different First Nations cultures in Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11557             Promoting Canadian First Nations talent.  Also providing a is service to play local artists in order to provide a way for the artists to become promoted.  This helps to reflect back to the local communities what is of cultural value and to them express the First Nations musical perspectives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11558             Because of the sheer vastness of First Nations communities that we serve, we are obliged to reach a large demographic ranging from 18 to 55.  The format we mainly use is Classic Rock, although we do have a Blues program and a Good Time Oldies, and other different music that we bring forward.  CFNR has a family friendly format.  You will not hear any rude jokes or profanity.  We play the hits from the 60s to the 90s normally.  Again, our people are fairly conservative and would not like us to do anything else but that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11559             Lynne Terbasket is our host of our Tribal Trax program, an employee of 20 years.  Lynne came to us straight out of BCIT.  Lynne has been an important part of CFNR and has established herself well with close contacts with First Nations people throughout B.C.  With her communication of events, issues and all things related to our people, Lynne hosts Tribal Trax, a one‑hour program that focuses on culture, individual success stories and developments that occur throughout B.C.  Lynne tells the stories of successful individuals, role models, interviews Elders, events, tells stories of our past, culture.  Lynne has become an important link with our First Nations communities, enabling them to keep up to date with information regarding the issues of our people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11560             Wilp Wilxo'oskwhl Nisga'a 411 community calendar.  This CFNR program runs five times a day, which enables the First Nations communities to announce meetings, fundraisers, event, funerals, potlatches, pole raisings.  When Kitkatla needed to announce an important treaty meeting, they used CFNR to reach their membership, both on reserve as well as members living throughout our broadcast area in the urban centres.  This service is free to our listeners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11561             Tri Corp on the Road.  We currently have a phone‑in feature weekly involving Peter Lantin from Tri Corp, a lending institution based outside of Prince Rupert.  He is currently visiting communities within our listening area and calling from each one, covering and sharing stories of economic and community‑based programs with the rest of our listeners in the other tribal groups.  Recently he interviewed the Chief of Bella Bella, just north of Vancouver Island, who spoke of a $2 million initiative and the benefits it will bring their community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11562             The Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters or WAAB.  Northern Native Broadcasting, CFNR, along with our counterparts in the four western provinces have joined forces.  This association, now a society, registered, enables us to better bring forward the better sharing of ideas and resources and joint programming.  We share as well and produce programs that run on all of our networks.  Example, the top 30 aboriginal countdown.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11563             Residential school settlement programs.  We have recently run four programs dedicated to assist our people who are the survivors of the residential school system.  Our next program will be a live call‑in program based from Manitoba through NCI.  WAAB will be hosting the call‑in program from Winnipeg, with a panel made up of national aboriginal leaders, counsellors, as well as money management experts.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11564             Aboriginal People's Choice Awards, CAMAs and more.  With the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, we can now reach 450,000 people in four western provinces.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11565             NNB (CFNR) is committed to mentoring, providing training and employment opportunities for aboriginal peoples we serve.  We have been successful in training and mentoring our people to become some of the best in their chosen field within the broadcast industry.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11566             Our entire Board of Directors, management and most of our staff are of aboriginal descent.  Our entire group is dedicated and focused to providing a first class product for our listening audience, with a blend of providing a language and culture component.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11567             With respect, it is our intention to meaningful consult with the Okanagan First Nation Alliance and the Westbank First nations, and we look forward to hiring and training and creating an opportunity for a culturally relevant radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11568             I thank you very much for the opportunity to take part in this process.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11569             I would like to invite Lynne Terbasket to share her story.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11570             Way', my name is Tminatkw Ktapasktw.  That means hello.  My name is Lynne Terbasket.  Tminatkw means rising of the dirty brown waters.  It comes from our old language which is now extinct.  I come from Simikameex, people of the eagle.  I am a member of the Lower Similkameen Indian Bank.  It has been a long journey to get here.  I had two mentors inspire my journey.  One was an Elder who taught me all the stories, the history, the legends, just really deep, the medicines, the place names, really beautiful stories, and this is what inspired me to begin this journey into broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11571             The second person who inspired this journey was the late great George Manual, who was the President of the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs in the 80s asked me what I am going to do to help the people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11572             I said, what do you need?  He said, we need people to tell our story.  So, as a young teenager I said, all right, I will get into radio.  It is our way that we honour our word and I have been committed to this for the past 30 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11573             I would really like to be able to bring this wonderful tool that we have to the Okanagan because we really help a lot of the people in the area where we do work.  We bring great understanding between First Nations and non‑First Nations.  We bring a great love of the land, and we look at the environment in a different way and we help people to come to love the environment, the mountains and to really come to know the place and to love it really well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11574             So, these are some of the things that we get to do and some of the programs that we do by reaching out to the Elders and their sharing of the stories of the land and the people who live here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11575             We do chance losing our language.  I was told by one Elder that two words in the Navajo language can be expressed 354,000 different ways, three words in the Navajo language will fill more than the Webster's dictionary, and there is a vast area of knowledge that is completely untapped.  The next discoveries in science and all other areas will be related to this because there is a whole area of knowledge and information that we, in English language, have not tapped into yet.  This is something that we can share on our broadcasts that also makes it exciting because we are accessing the people who have this knowledge that is unexposed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11576             We are extremely successful, and we have been working at it since 1985.  That is when I first came on board.  Our first program aired December 1985.  From there we have just gone straight up, I guess you could say, to our satellite distribution network, opening up, and this was in 1989 to the communities that we are linked to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11577             In 1999 we reached a world wide web audience, and as of 2001 we were on Star Choice satellite across Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11578             There are many reasons why we need the licence.  In the story of Terbasket, that means opening of the clouds.  As part of the story where one of the brothers brings back to life his older brother, and it involves shooting an arrow into the sky.  In many ways you resemble that arrow because when that arrow came back down it went into the hole he had cut into his brother's buckskin jacket and his brother came back to life and the clouds moved back like that and the sun came shining down on them like this.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11579             This is the kind of reawakening that you can bring to the people here that we have brought to the people of the north, and I really do encourage you to give us that licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11580             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11581             MR. BARTLETT:  I would like to encourage William to speak, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11582             MR. WESLEY:  Madam Chair, members of the Commission, am‑daala‑whaan, hi, how are you?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11583             Just to add to Ron's presentation to you, I want to give you my views of communication.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11584             In the spirit of communication, I feel it is important to introduce myself.  My name is William Wesley.  I am a Tsimshian from Lax‑kw'alaams, which is also known as Port Simpson on the north coast of B.C.  My Indian name is Hey‑wuxth.  I am a warrior and protector of my Chief and my people and my tribe.  One day I will be the Chief.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11585             I was accepted and started radio training in 1986 and started my career with Northern Native Broadcasting in July of 1987.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11586             My choice of career in radio broadcasting comes from a desire to positively impact the non‑native community for the betterment of our people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11587             I believe communication vehicles offer an avenue of hope to improve life for native people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11588             Communication provides a means by which we can interpret our own reality, define our own identity and, in turn, express these to the world community as a whole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11589             To those of us who choose this path, the responsibilities are numerous.  We are the present day story tellers, as most of our history is orally passed down from our Elders to us.  We are the messengers between the villages and the nations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11590             As well, we are the native presence in the information age where we stand strong on aboriginal awareness between the aboriginal and non‑aboriginal communities.  We are the carriers of the word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11591             We are the communicators just as the raven is the communicator in our traditional stories and myths.  In many ways we are today's tribal historians.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11592             Our heritage and legacy as the first people of the land demand that we meet these responsibilities for future generations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11593             We can, through radio, preserve, our language and culture through preserving our traditional stories.  We are the watchdogs of native governments, organizations and agencies as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11594             Just as important, we have the responsibility to ensure that all First Nations are kept informed of federal and provincial government policies and laws which affect and influence our lives.  In many ways, we represent the only glimpses many non‑First Nations have of our culture, heritage and communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11595             If our communities are to improve, we need a strong and free radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11596             Classic Rock CFNR's past and current mandate to initiate freedom of the radio in First Nations communities, as a necessary step towards that agenda or goal, it is my belief that only communication between all members of our First Nations will improve the quality of life of all native people.  That has always been the responsibility of communications in our societies, a goal we share at CFNR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11597             We are linked to the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters for the betterment of communities in western Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11598             Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11599             MR. BARTLETT:  We would like to thank you again, Madam Chair and Commissioners, and this completes our presentation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11600             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11601             I will ask Commissioner Williams to lead the questioning.  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11602             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Wesley and Ms Terbasket, and I am sorry, I missed your name.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11603             MR. BARTLETT:  Ron Bartlett.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11604             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Bartlett.  Who should I direct my questions to, to you, Mr. Bartlett?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11605             MR. BARTLETT:  Yes, I would be glad to answer your questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11606             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you.  Welcome to our hearing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11607             As you know, the CRTC Native Broadcasting Policy states that native undertaking should, amongst other things, be specifically oriented to the native population and reflect the interests and needs specific to the native audience it is licensed to serve.  It has a distinct role in fostering the development of aboriginal cultures and, where possible, the preservation of ancestral languages.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11608             I have a series of questions in this area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11609             We have, of course, as you know, received some interventions from local aboriginal community that have suggested they are not in support of your application.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11610             Can you please tell me what level of local consultation that you went through, and maybe also comment on the importance of local ownership and involvement in order for this type of service to succeed.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11611             MR. BARTLETT:  Yes.  I think if you look at the models of our western Canada broadcast system for aboriginal broadcasters, we do consult with, but the process of the CRTC does not allow for meaningful consultation.  The short time lines that were there for us to apply for the licence, again in our culture, consultation is more than a word.  It means accommodation, and consultation is something that we do on an ongoing basis, not just when we are applying for a licence or appearing before a Commission.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11612             I am visiting communities each week, at least one or two villages within our 45 communities in our broadcast area to make sure I am continually consulting with them, bringing out their issues, bringing out their needs and what they would like to see.  Then we bring those needs forward and be their voice to the other tribal groups.  We are more than just a single village or a single tribal group.  In southern B.C., we want to ‑‑ now we have matured for 20 years.  We have become successful in what we are doing, we have become a voice of the First Nations people throughout B.C.  We want to extend our network, as we have in the north, to the south.  We are financially able to do that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11613             So, what we hope to do is to first and foremost consult the Westbank First Nation and the Okanagan Alliance and to make sure that their needs of communication are brought into what we would do.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11614             That we will promise to do, and make them part of what we are going forward as an organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11615             We have a strong component already of their people.  Lynne Terbasket is of the Okanagan peoples, and we are really, if you could imagine, a multi‑national First Nations organization.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11616             British Columbia has over 20 different tribal groups, with close to 200 villages.  The second largest population of aboriginal peoples in Canada live in B.C.  So, we have to take into account the interests of certainly the First Nations people of Okanagan, but also of the 12 other tribal groups of southern B.C., and they have different cultures and different languages as different as French and English.  So, again, we have to represent them all globally and we certainly will consult with them.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11617             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So, if I understand you, have you had meetings with any of the local groups, the Okanagan Nation Alliance or the Westbank First Nation prior to now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11618             MR. BARTLETT:  Yes, we have actually.  Chief Louis had come to our station.  Perhaps I can let William or Lynne, who had a firsthand visit with him, I wasn't in the station at the time he was there, but he had expressed an interest that we come and do exactly the same thing here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11619             Lynne has been communicating with many of her associates and relatives within the Okanagan communities.  Again, the indication is that we are welcomed with what we have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11620             We haven't had the opportunity to communicate directly on a government‑to‑business basis, but, again, that is our opportunity.  It is our intention to do that as we go forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11621             Perhaps Lynne or William, if you wanted to recount Chief Louis' visit.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11622             MS TERBASKET:  Over the past number of years we have met with Okanagan Nation Alliance and the Chiefs of the Okanagan.  They did support our efforts a number of years ago and encouraged us to keep going and to bring this to the area, to the region and develop it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11623             Unfortunately, we haven't been able to sit down with Westbank First Nation or Okanagan Nation Alliance.  However, due to our short notice that we were going to bring together the application, we never had the opportunity to contact them, although we would not proceed without having them directly involved with the programming, the sound of the station, et cetera.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11624             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What specific measures would you put into place to bring their involvement to a state where it was supportive?  What would you be offering and what would you be providing them to gain their support?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11625             MR. BARTLETT:  Again, we don't operate in isolation.  We need their involvement.  We will be looking at this being the head office, just as we have a mirror of our northern network where in Terrace we have our head office and studio.  We would propose to do exactly the same thing here in Kelowna and we need people, we need First Nations people.  We would draw from their people and employ them and train them and mentor them.  So I think we would have a very good significant involvement with their community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11626             This, again, as we do in the north, would be the head office of our southern network.  We are proposing that we would do a similar network in the north into the south where we would rebroadcast via satellite to the remote villages throughout southern B.C. as well as to where opportunity presents to the urban centres where many First Nations live.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11627             Because we are building our head office here, we would engage them directly again in employment, in training and having their people work in our organization, and we would consult them again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11628             Again, apologies.  The time line of the application doesn't provide for meaningful consultation, and that is the word that I think that we would like to bring forward.  Meaningful consultation again means accommodation, and that is something that is actually entrenched in law, in First Nations law.  So we understand that and we would go forward doing that.  We have had no problem to this point in any other part of B.C.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11629             But, again, this is going to be a head office that serves 12 other First Nations groups with different languages and different cultures.  So, we would also have to consult with them as well and make sure that the programming is going to be relevant to all the First Nations in the south, just as we are doing it now in the north.  We have a proven model in the north.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11630             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is a good lead into the next question.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11631             Give us a description of the programs that will be broadcast and how are they going to be relevant to the Kelowna aboriginal population, keeping in mind that the Native Broadcasting Policy, as I have said at the outset of the questioning, be specifically oriented to the native population and reflect the interests and needs specific to the audience that it is licensed to serve.  So, if it is licensed for the Kelowna market, describe some of the programming that will be relevant to the Kelowna aboriginal population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11632             MR. BARTLETT:  Oh yes, by all means.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11633             Again, we would have an opportunity to bring to the Kelowna market, as we do in the north right now, the complete aboriginal community from western Canada.  With our association of the Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, the local people here need to have an understanding of what is happening to their fellow First Nations people throughout Canada, and we bring that opportunity through our association here, through also shared programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11634             As an example, our residential school program you would not hear on any other network or broadcaster except through our medium.  We presently have four programs that we have run recently.  They have been run throughout western Canada where we have been able to have high profile First Nations leaders, Canadian leaders address our people, as well as people that have been involved in putting together the residential school agreement.  We have had counsellors to help with the issues around healing with the residential school issue, plus money management people to help the survivors better manage what they are going to be receiving.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11635             Again, you would not hear that in any other network but ours.  From there, we have a live call‑in program coming up on November 25th, that is going to link all of western Canada, and the people here will benefit from that.  There are many survivors here that need this information that aren't going to get it many other ways.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11636             We will, again through meaningful consultation with the Westbank First Nation and the Okanagan Alliance, we will consult them, that is a promise.  We will from there bring out what they need to have brought out, and not just to these communities here, but their issues will be brought out to the greater audience through B.C.  We are a B.C.‑wide network as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11637             So, we will consult them, yes, on a local basis and we will bring in valuable information to them on a daily basis from the outside connections of our association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11638             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Bartlett.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11639             You propose to broadcast 12 hours of spoken word programming, which includes three hours of news, seven hours of other talk and two hours of public affairs.  How will your spoken word programming be distinct, specifically oriented to the needs of the Kelowna marketplace?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11640             MR. BARTLETT:  For one thing we will have their own language being broadcast, which is specifically looking at the Okanagan people.  We will broadcast their language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11641             We will also bring out their needs as far as communication from one community to another.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11642             Our people, they are in tribal groups and they have relatives from one community to another.  When there are things like feasts, which is our potlatch, or our judicial system, we will broadcast those.  Then from there, if there is any events, whether it be deaths or meetings or simply fundraising for their community groups, we will do that.  We will work right there with them side by side, which we do in the north.  We will do here for them as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11643             So, we will focus on bringing and building capacity and showcasing their events in their different communities.  Their different cultural programs we will do as well, specifically directed to the Okanagan First Nation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11644             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Have you decided on any specific type of programming or any specific local people that are involved to help you put this together?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11645             MR. BARTLETT:  Lynne actually has been doing that now for approximately 20 years.  We have been bringing the news and views of the Okanagan people to the north.  Lynne is from the Okanagan and she has family here that are in different levels of government.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11646             Lynne is heading our Tribal Trax program, which is a very important part of our day.  We are going to mirror that program here.  She would be here and directly involved in producing it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11647             So, you know, we have direct contact with the Okanagan First Nations people through Lynne Terbasket, an Okanagan member.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11648             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  The programming in your southern network would be different than the programming in the northern?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11649             MR. BARTLETT:  We would take the good things that would work from the northern network, but again with consultation from the local peoples.  We would develop what they want to hear.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11650             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Out of the 126 hours of programming per broadcast week, how many hours will be dedicated to native programming, both in English and aboriginal languages and maybe if you can give us a break down between the spoken word and the music programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11651             So, the question is out of the 126 hours of programming, how many hours will be dedicated to native programming?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11652             MR. BARTLETT:  We would have at least 20 hours per week dedicated specifically to local First Nations programming.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11653             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Of that 20 hours, how much of it is spoken word and how much is music or is that all spoken word?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11654             MR. BARTLETT:  That would be a mixture of both, mostly spoken word.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11655             We have a one‑hour spoken word program daily.  That is the Tribal Trax program that runs one hour every day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11656             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  That is seven hours.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11657             MR. BARTLETT:  That is seven hours.  Then through the day our announcers are continuously interacting with our listeners bringing out birthday requests or meeting announcements.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11658             We have live people working all day long interacting with our listeners and bringing out what they need to be brought out, plus our news programs are all local.  We will have three people dedicated to the local news gathering, and that will be brought out each day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11659             With regard to sports, we will also bring that component out as well, again focusing on the First Nations sports activities and any cultural events we would certainly be there to bring that forward.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11660             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So, how many hours would that be total now?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11661             MR. BARTLETT:  A minimum of 20 hours.  It goes longer than that.  When we are working with a community promoting their events, it is almost every other word that we speak is directing people to the event to encourage them to come out and support their brothers and sisters in these different communities.  That we do on quite a regular basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11662             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Your application proposes three hours of news.  How many hours of local news stories will be during each broadcast week, like how much of this news is going to be local?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11663             MR. BARTLETT:  It is pretty much all local actually.  The national news would be brought in from our WAAB association or anything that is important to our people.  But, again, our focus is to be local, again distinctive to the south rather than the north.  So we would bring forward more issues and news from this area.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11664             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Of the three hours, what percentage would be dedicated to the Kelowna marketplace?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11665             MR. BARTLETT:  At least one hour, you know.  Again, it depends on what is happening within the First Nations communities in southern B.C.  We would certainly focus ‑‑ this is going to be the head office and this would be the centre of focus, but there is other issues that would affect our peoples on a daily basis throughout B.C., southern B.C. first, then B.C. and then western Canada.  We would bring those components into the day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11666             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  With respect to newscasts, how many will be offered over the course of a broadcast week or a broadcast day?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11667             MR. BARTLETT:  At the top and the bottom of every hour for ten hours a day.  That is not just news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11668             Our peoples, if you can imagine living in the rural communities, a road report is not a luxury.  On the coast, the weather reports are not a luxury.  They are a necessity.  If you are travelling many miles to an urban centre for your goods and services, for the safety of your family you need to listen to the road reports.  We have detailed road reports that would cover and encompass the full travel distance of the Okanagan First Nation first and then what is happening around.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11669             From there, the different elements that they would need during the day to keep themselves going, we would bring that in as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11670             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So, a typical newscast, what would be the average length of this newscast?  How much time would it be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11671             MR. BARTLETT:  About ten minutes per ‑‑ we have one major news report at the top of the hour and a shortened one at the bottom of the hour.  So, then ten minutes and then five minutes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11672             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Is this the case seven days a week or is that just Monday to Friday?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11673             MR. BARTLETT:  Monday to Friday, yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11674             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  What happens on the weekends?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11675             MR. BARTLETT:  On the weekends, we do have different programs running on the weekends but our news is basically Monday to Friday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11676             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I note that you will be live‑to‑air 60 hours per week.  Can you tell me exactly when this would occur.  Is it 10:00 to 10:00 or 6:00 to 8:00?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11677             MR. BARTLETT:  6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. daily.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11678             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, 6:00 to 6:00 daily.  And that is seven days a week or what happens on the weekends?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11679             MR. BARTLETT:  On the weekends we have prerecorded programming a lot of times but if we are involved with on event it is live broadcasting from those communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11680             A big component of what we do, we actually travel to the villages that we serve and broadcast from their villages as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11681             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I guess we note your proposed musical format would consist of a mixture of popular music as well as blues and country, and we have heard about classic rock which you are using in your network now.  As you know, the native policy states that aboriginal broadcasters must play an effective leading role in the development and airplay of native musical talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11682             What initiatives do you have proposed in that ‑‑

LISTNUM 1 \l 11683             MR. BARTLETT:  Presently with our WAAB association, Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, every week we broadcast the top aboriginal 30 countdown weekly and in doing so promote our aboriginal artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11684             With Lynne's Tribal Trax program she features First Nations artists through her program, and that is on a local basis.  When we are broadcasting in Kelowna, as we hope to do, that would be bringing in local people here, local First Nations people and promoting them on our program.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11685             We also have quite often brought in the artists during the day part and interviewed them as they are going along and played their music as they are sitting there, and it is quite an interesting component.  But we do promote local aboriginal artists on a regular basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11686             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Coming back to one of my first questions, could you please now tell us the importance of local ownership and involvement in an undertaking such as yours serving this area?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11687             MR. BARTLETT:  I appreciate the question, and, again, our focus will be first the Okanagan First Nations people and for their betterment to bring in our opportunities for communication from the B.C. wide audience as well as western Canada, bringing it here so we can communicate back and forth for them, bringing their views out and the other views in.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11688             But, again, we will be hiring local people to fill the positions here.  We will be training and mentoring, just as we have for William and Lynne, bringing them up to a place where they can work in any environment anywhere.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11689             Right now, our First Nations component of our staffing is about 80 per cent.  I don't think you would have that even if you started a local station because you would have to have expertise brought in to first train and go.  But we offer as well a much greater depth that we can bring to the Okanagan people with our experience and our successes, and this will be brought into our radio station here locally.  Again, we will be hiring local people.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11690             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you, Mr. Bartlett for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11691             Do you see any opportunities for the local people in terms of, say, ownership or a joint venture or positions on the Board of Directors or senior managers of the organization, or is that something that you will provide from northern B.C. and just train people for the operation?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11692             MR. BARTLETT:  I am sure that those opportunities will arise, but we really need to have meaningful consultation, which again your process hasn't allowed us to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11693             We were simply applying for a licence first and then once we have the licence, we will come in and we will consult.  Much like our northern operation, our Board of Directors are made of representatives from the different tribal groups and we would need that input here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11694             Certainly senior management, there are many qualified people in this area that we will bring on board to assist us and guide us and help us build a network relevant to the communities here.  Then from employment, we need to mentor and train again people from this area.  So we would provide that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11695             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Okay, Mr. Bartlett and Ms Terbasket and Mr. Wesley, thank you very much for your presentation.  That concludes my line of questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11696             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11697             I just have a couple of follow‑up questions.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11698             You have mentioned it a couple of times that our process does not allow you to do consultation.  Can you educate me on what are the barriers to our process that do not allow you to do that and is there anything about our process that we could change?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11699             MR. BARTLETT:  We were simply applying for a licence.  We appreciate the opportunity, but meaningful consultation would have to take place over a period of time, and we want to make sure that we would devote that time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11700             So, with the short time line we had for applying for the licence we did.  And our intention is to consult with again the local First Nations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11701             Again, consultation means accommodation, not just to talk or send a letter.  So, accommodation means, and this is actually entrenched in law with the Delgamuuxth decision that happened some time back, where consultation has to be engaging of both parties and also accommodating both parties.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11702             So, that is what we mean by consultation.  It is a higher level of discussion.  It is not discussion.  It is consultation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11703             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there anything about our process that we could change that would allow you to do that in a more meaningful way the next time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11704             MR. BARTLETT:  Well, if we had a few months to apply.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11705             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So it is just a matter of time?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11706             MR. BARTLETT:  It is time.  We do appreciate again the opportunity, but we apologize to the local First Nations groups that consultation, the way we understand it, couldn't happen in that time line.  But, again, it is our intention and we go on record as saying we will consult with the local First Nations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11707             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11708             I am asking this question only as it relates to your share projections.  Can you tell me what percentage of the population in this market is aboriginal and, therefore, would be your target core audience?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11709             MR. BARTLETT:  Again, that is a difficult question to quantify because there are a number of aboriginal peoples living in the urban centre here.  You can get the totals of the villages, but the urban centre, it is really a multi‑national group that lives in Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11710             William was visiting his sister here last night and he has a nephew here.  There are many other peoples that have come to live in Kelowna because of the economic opportunities from the 200 villages throughout B.C. living in the urban centre.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11711             So, there are many people of aboriginal descent.  I would suggest 15, maybe 20 per cent in that area.  That would be conservatively.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11712             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That would be conservative?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11713             MR. BARTLETT:  Yes.  In the north we actually have a huge population of aboriginal peoples there, but it is a little less in the south with the larger urban populations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11714             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Therefore, if you don't have an exact number, and perhaps you haven't done that kind of demographic study, what factors went into these share projections that you have filed with us in the application?  In other words, how did you come up with these projections because some might argue that for your type of radio station, for a specialty format, these are a bit high.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11715             MR. BARTLETT:  Okay.  We are going by best information provided at that time.  So, that, to the best of our knowledge, is what we understand to be the case.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11716             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You spoke a little bit with Commissioner Williams about your format.  Do you have an estimate as to what percentage of the music will feature aboriginal artists or whichever way you choose to quantify it.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11717             MR. BARTLETT:  About 10 to 15 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11718             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ten to 15 per cent of the music will feature aboriginal artists?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11719             MR. BARTLETT:  Yes.  At different day parts it will be 100 per cent.  During the Tribal Trax program, it is between 6:00 and 7:00 every night, it is all aboriginal.  Our top 30 countdown which happens once a week is all aboriginal.  From there it is a mixture through our day.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11720             But aboriginal people love music as well, so from there we are just like you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11721             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sure.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11722             MR. WESLEY:  It depends on what time of day it is.  Usually throughout the day we still play a lot of the recorded artists internationally known, Buffy Sainte‑Marie, Robbie Robertson.  We still do a little bit of Kashtin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11723             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And this would be throughout the broadcast week?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11724             MR. WESLEY:  That is right.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11725             THE CHAIRPERSON:  What percentage of your spoken word programming would be in aboriginal languages?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11726             MR. BARTLETT:  We committed to ‑‑ like the aboriginal language specifically?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11727             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11728             MR. BARTLETT:  One and a half hours per week would be aboriginal language.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11729             Again, it is a really important part of what we offer.  The average speaker of our language is 55 years old now, and it has been well noted that our language is at risk of being lost very soon.  So, it is an important part of what we do, not just the language, the culture as well.  Our culture, we are so bombarded by outside influences today that it is very difficult to be of aboriginal descent and retain your culture in an urban environment specifically, and more so in the south than the north.  In the north we have many supports but here it is very difficult.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11730             Our first and foremost wish is to aid in the retention of the language and also be a benefit to the people and their culture.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11731             THE CHAIRPERSON:  And that is why we asked the question as to how much of your programming will in fact target specifically the aboriginal community because it also provides for the distinctiveness of your service when compared to what is currently available in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11732             I understand from your proposal that this mixture of different types of music is what will best address the tastes and needs of the aboriginal community, but we must also look at it from the point of view of the impact it is going to have on the market and on the incumbents.  I am wondering if you have had an opportunity to assess what impact you will have?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11733             MR. BARTLETT:  I think that in looking at the unique aspect of our programming and our delivery, we will have a minimal effect on what is being broadcast and what is being presented to the Kelowna market.  We will have a major effect on the aboriginal population.  I use the word aboriginal because it is more than First Nations.  There are Métis, there are Inuit, there are others.  And again, living in this urban centre there are many other First Nations here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11734             So, our appeal is to them, and I am sure we will have some crossover in listeners.  In the north we are who we are, and we don't hide our First Nations identity in any way.  Almost every other ID is Canada's First Nations radio and on and on.  But we do have popularity in the north through other peoples listening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11735             THE CHAIRPERSON:  So if I understand your position correctly, you acknowledge that there may be some overlap with the existing radio stations in this market, but it is the manner in which you will package your radio station that will cause it to be distinct and address the needs and tastes of the aboriginal community.  Have I got that right?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11736             MR. BARTLETT:  Yes.  I think one of the reasons for our success is that we have been able to, through 20 years of experience now, do that in a very upbeat and very positive way.  Because it is so upbeat and positive, a lot of the non‑First Nations people like listening to that as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11737             We do have some listeners of the non‑aboriginal population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11738             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  One final question which we are asking all applicants.  How many radio stations do you believe the Kelowna market can sustain?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11739             MR. BARTLETT:  Coming from where we are right now, which has been a depressed economy and we have been working in communities a fifth this size with many, many radio stations to compete against and we are successful as well as they, I would suggest you could have two mainstream radio stations and as well two alternate stations here without much of a problem.  Again citing the 45,000 increase in population since the last licence was here and the demographics that are here that aren't being served, this radio market is underserved, to my understanding.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11740             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If we were to licence, as you are suggesting, two commercial FM stations, would any of the proposals that we have before us this week have more or less of an impact on your proposal?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11741             MR. BARTLETT:  Not at all.  Again, we are a unique commodity.  Our first and foremost focus is the aboriginal population.  Theirs is not.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11742             I don't know if I could relate to you, but my first job that I had gotten in industry, my application said, yes, Indian in pencil written on it.  I was a token Indian.  That is not the case with our station.  We are First Nations first.  We are 80 per cent First Nations of staffing and management.  Our focus will be on the First Nations and aboriginal populations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11743             Again, we are not going to be trying to reach the major market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11744             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11745             Legal counsel?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11746             MS LEHOUX:  No.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11747             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11748             Mr. Bartlett, you have two minutes to give us your final pitch.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11749             MR. BARTLETT:  Again, thank you, Madam Chair and Commissioners.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11750             Thank you for the opportunity to apply for a broadcast licence for Kelowna.  Our plan again is to consult with the local First Nations first, and then from there continue our provincial network similar to our northern network, with the main studio and head office in Kelowna, employing people from this area and engaging them in management as well.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11751             We will also be serving the 12 different tribal groups and many aboriginal peoples in the urban centres with many different languages and cultures.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11752             We are asking for no more than our sister networks in western Canada, like NCI of Manitoba, who now serve most of Manitoba, including Winnipeg.  With the other networks from western Canada continuing to expand and better serve their peoples, we are asking for the same thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11753             Our language and culture is disappearing, with the average speaker being 55 years old.  With our association of Western Association of Aboriginal Broadcasters, we bring many resources, as well as over 20 years broadcast service servicing the tribal groups in the north.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11754             B.C. has the second largest population of aboriginal peoples in Canada and are the fastest growing population of people in Canada.  Northern Native Broadcasting, CFNR, is the best option to serve our people of B.C. and I would encourage you to approve our licence application for Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11755             Again, we will continue to consult the local First Nations to bring their views and input to our station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11756             Thank you for this opportunity.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11757             THE CHAIRPERSON:  To Mr. Bartlett and your colleagues, thank you very much.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11758             Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11759             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11760             I would now ask Radio CJVR Limited to come forward to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

LISTNUM 1 \l 11761             THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will take five minutes.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 0931 / Suspension à 0931

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 0940 / Reprise à 0940

LISTNUM 1 \l 11762             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11763             THE SECRETARY:  Please be seated, we will begin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11764             We will now proceed with item 8 which is an application by Radio CJVR Limited for a licence to operate an English‑language FM radio programming undertaking in Kelowna, British Columbia.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11765             The new station would operate on frequency 96.3, with an average effective radiated power of 7,100 watts, maximum effective radiated power of 20,000 watts, antenna height of minus 89 metres.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11766             Appearing to the applicant is Mr. Ken Singer.  Please introduce your colleagues, and you will then have 20 minutes to make your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

LISTNUM 1 \l 11767             MR. SINGER:  Good morning, Madam Chair, Commissioners and staff.  Thank you for allowing this opportunity to appear before you once again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11768             Before we begin our presentation for a new FM licence in Kelowna, I would like to introduce the members of our team.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11769             My name is Ken Singer.  I have been with Radio CJVR Limited for the past 11 years of my 40 year broadcasting career.  I am Vice‑President of Broadcast Operations for our company, responsible for our two Saskatchewan stations, CJVR‑FM and CKJH‑AM in Melfort, as well as CIXM‑FM in Whitecourt, Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11770             To my right is Kevin Gemmell, Station Manager and Sales Manager of our two Melfort stations.  Kevin has been with our company over 11 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11771             On my far left is Dean Sinclair, a broadcast veteran, whose 30‑plus career includes programming, on‑air, sales, senior management experience.  Dean has provided input and direction for our proposed Blended Country musical format.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11772             Behind Dean is Lang McGilp.  Lang has over ten years of market research experience working with some of the largest research firms in Canada, including Ipsos‑Reid, and is currently Vice‑President of Research Services for Insightrix Research Inc. of Saskatoon.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11773             To his right is Linda Rheaume, Administrative Manager for our stations.  Linda has been a part of our team for the past 16 years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11774             On my immediate left is Gene Fabro, the President and owner of Fabmar Investments Limited of Alberta.  As a prominent western Canadian entrepreneur, the Fabro family have been in business for over a half a century and, through its holding company Fabmar Investments, have over the past 25 years invested heavily in a broad cross‑section of industrial activities, including land development and home building, manufacturing, wood lot management, oil and gas exploration, coal resource holdings, office and retail buildings and, for the past 15 years, radio broadcasting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11775             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair and Commissioners, Radio CJVR comes before you today asking for approval to establish an FM programming undertaking on frequency 96.3 to serve Kelowna and surrounding communities within the Central Okanagan.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11776             Such approval will result in a dynamic new FM radio service that is programmed to meet the unfulfilled listening needs and preferences of the region's rapidly growing and underserved 45‑plus demographic spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11777             CJVR's Blended Country format will greatly enhance the existing level of programming diversity within the market, champion the development of local talent and offer Kelowna businesses an alternative advertising vehicle to target specific age groups on a more cost efficient basis.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11778             In addition to enhancing the diversity of editorial voices and local programming choices, Country 96 will further strengthen Kelowna's radio sector by establishing competitive balance in the market and adding diversity to the ownership structure of British Columbia's private broadcasting spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11779             Approval of Country 96 will, in essence, restore the presence of a strong independent local radio voice within the Kelowna market that is presently owned and controlled by two large multimedia companies with broadcasting licences across western Canada and beyond.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11780             As the Commission knows, over the past two years, CJVR has applied for new broadcasting licenses in various underserved markets across western Canada in an effort to expand our radio business and assume a larger role as an independent within Canada's private broadcasting sector.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11781             As a dedicated radio company, CJVR brings to Kelowna 41 years of broadcast experience, a nationally acclaimed reputation for programming excellence, a talent development track record that is second to none, a corporate culture which embodies a deep‑rooted sense of community and motivated owners committed to making a difference in the lives of their employees, their listeners and their communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11782             Based on the stated needs and listening preferences of Kelowna residents, CJVR's unique musical and spoken word programming initiatives, will help bridge the service disparity gaps within the 45 to 64 and 65‑plus age groups whose combined demos represent 55 per cent of Kelowna's adult population.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11783             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, Kelowna's incumbent radio operators would have you believe that the programming formats being proposed at this hearing are already covered by five existing stations, thus negating the need for a new FM undertaking on the premise that it will bring little, if any, added diversity to the local market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11784             Further, they maintain that Kelowna residents are well satisfied with the listening choices currently available to them on local radio.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11785             In looking beyond the posturing of these two ownership groups, CJVR, through its extensive consumer demand research, has discovered that such arguments are inconsistent with the expressed needs and programming voids identified by the hundreds of Kelowna residents who participated in our two consumer studies.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11786             By way of example, 65 per cent of Kelowna residents surveyed said they would listen to radio more often if the programming they liked was available.  57 per cent agreed that Kelowna's existing stations offer similar programming, and 50 per cent stated that often there is very little on the radio that they like to listen to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11787             The study conducted by Insightrix Research Services notes that a large segment of dissatisfied listeners falls within the 45‑plus age group and, in particular, those aged 55‑plus.  This is consistent with CJVR's analysis of current local musical and spoken word programming which shows that existing stations are largely catering to the younger 18 to 44 age group, at the near exclusion of the 45‑plus age group, the largest and most rapidly growing cohort within Kelowna's broader community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11788             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, CJVR commissioned IRS to go into the field to explore the musical preferences of Kelowna's residents.  In all, a battery of 17 different music genres were presented to 400 respondents between the ages of 18 and 70.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11789             Of all the music styles presented, country proved to be the music of preference, as 44 per cent of respondents overall said they wanted to hear more country music on Kelowna radio.  The IRS survey also indicated an interest in both new country and traditional country music styles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11790             After viewing the survey results, CJVR concluded that a Blended Country music format would better serve Kelowna's population than either a new or traditional country station on their own.  To test this theory, CJVR had IRS survey an additional 400 Kelowna residents aged 35 to 70.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11791             The results of this second survey indicated that 58 per cent of respondents were interested in the proposed Blended Country music station.  While 69 per cent of both males and females aged 55‑plus stated they were very interested in such a station, followed by 67 per cent of females aged 35 to 44.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11792             In terms of spoken word programming, many felt the need for more information on events and activities within the Kelowna area.  Nearly 37 per cent were less than satisfied with the amount of coverage that existing stations are providing to artists and performers, and 40 per cent of respondents expressed the view that Kelowna's cultural diversity is not well reflected on current local stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11793             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, in recent weeks Kelowna's underserved 45‑plus listenership spectrum has been further impacted by two format changes undertaken by both incumbent ownership groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11794             Standard/Astral's CKFR‑AM has opted to change from an Oldies format to a News/Information station, thus removing one of the few local music sources of interest to Kelowna's older demographic.  As well, Pattison's CKOV, in converting from AM to FM, has aborted its approved Soft Vocals format in favour of a Hot New Country music station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11795             CJVR's concern is that our application may get short circuited by another broadcast organization's change of heart.  Before you discount us as just another Country station for Kelowna, CJVR would urge the Commission to look at our application for what it will mean to Kelowna residents, to new and emerging talent and to the Canadian broadcasting system.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11796             As a matter of principle, CJVR takes issue with the sequence of events leading up to this hearing, events which have changed the dynamics of the marketplace and of this public process.  First, CKOV proceeded after the fact to abandon the Soft Vocals format.  Next, there is an attempt by a competing applicant to materially change their application just 13 days prior to the start of this public hearing.   Both of these actions have placed CJVR's application, among others, in a highly prejudicial position at these hearings.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11797             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair, my family and my colleagues are excited and optimistic about the prospect of establishing a first class FM radio service at Kelowna, the hub of the Central Okanagan and the largest centre for urban development, business, commerce, retail and health care services between Greater Vancouver and Alberta.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11798             I would add that we do not agree with the economic portrait of Kelowna as painted by the two incumbent broadcast groups who maintain that the local market economy is too fragile to support a new FM station without wreaking havoc and throwing the market into a tail spin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11799             In looking beyond the posturing and self‑interests of these incumbent broadcast groups, CJVR, through the results of the IRS economic analysis, advertiser survey, and consumer demand studies, finds their prognosis to be somewhat contradictory of the economic reality of the local market economy.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11800             MS RHEAUME:  Madam Chair, among the key indicators noted in the IRS economic analysis, which confirm the vibrant growth of Kelowna's market economy and its ability to support an additional local FM station are the following:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11801             Kelowna's population grew by 11 per cent between 2001 and 2006 and is projected to increase by 138 per cent over the next 25 years, while the province is only expected to grow by 30 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11802             Retail sales in Kelowna are estimated by FP markets to be in excess of $2.7 billion for 2007, some 27 per cent above the national average and are projected to increase on average more than 6 per cent per year to just over $3 billion in 2009 and to nearly $3.7 billion by 2012.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11803             The FP markets study indicates the average family income in Kelowna is 73,500 per year.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11804             The participation rate in the economy has grown to its highest point since 1994, reaching 65 per cent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11805             The number of housing starts has doubled between 2001 and 2004, while building permits in 2005 achieved record levels with a 74 per cent increase over 2004.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11806             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, CJVR's market analysis, based on the FP Canadian markets retail sales report, estimates that total market advertising expenditures are approximately 4 per cent of retail sales, indicating that total advertising dollars available to all media in the Kelowna market in 2007 is over $108 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11807             Based on FP markets report, CJVR concludes that 12 per cent or $12.9 million of that figure should be obtainable by all local radio.  We believe that five existing stations would garner approximately $10 million of that amount, with the remaining $2.9 million in untapped radio advertising available to a new market entrant.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11808             CJVR's estimated revenue in year one is $1.7 million.  Of this amount, we anticipate that only 6 per cent will come from existing radio stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11809             The IRS advertiser survey confirmed the desire of Kelowna's business community for a new FM station that will add an element of competitive balance to a market that is currently dominated by the two existing ownership groups.  CJVR's proposed Country 96 was well received by local advertisers who were near unanimous in their view that Kelowna could definitely sustain a new station.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11810             MR. SINCLAIR:  Madam Chair, CJVR's style of providing great music and locally relevant community driven spoken word programming is fully in step with the stated needs of Kelowna's 45‑plus listenership, and in particular those aged 55 to 70, whose current programming choices fall well short of what is available to younger age groups.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11811             In terms of Country 96's musical approach, the IRS survey indicated that Kelowna's Country fans are quite eclectic in their tastes for different styles of Country music, as evidenced by the fact that nearly 52 per cent of respondents who want to hear more Hot New Country also want to hear more Traditional Country music.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11812             Hence, Country 96 will offer a full spectrum of Country music styles, rich in history and in heritage.  Essentially, we will blend mainstream Country artists from past decades who have formed the foundation for today's country music, in addition to showcasing new and emerging artists.  From Hank Williams to Hank Snow, George Strait to Doc Walker, Buck Owens to Tommy Hunter, Vince Gill to Tammy Wynette, Reba to Terri Clark and, of course, Kelowna's own Cruzeros, Country 96 will play them all.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11813             This Blended Country music format is an artist driven sound with a big fan base that is fiercely loyal.  It is all about this blended sound.

‑‑‑ Audio presentation / présentation audio

LISTNUM 1 \l 11814             MR. SINCLAIR:  Madam Chair, make no mistake, Country 96's Blended Country music format will bring pure musical diversity to the Kelowna market in spite of the sudden arrival on the scene of Pattison's CKOV‑FM Country, which for all intent and purpose is a near clone of their Vancouver Country station CJJR.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11815             A top line comparison of CKOV and CJVR's proposed Blended Country format graphically illustrates that Country 96 is truly different and, as such, will add fresh diversity to Kelowna's private radio sector, while quenching Country fans thirst for a mix of different Country music styles.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11816             Aimed at the 45‑plus listener, most of Country 96's 1500 song playlist will cover the past five decades.  By comparison CKOV's Hot New Country format is aimed at an 18 to 34 audience, with about 60 per cent of their 500 song playlist from the past two years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11817             In terms of Canadian content, CKOV plays the minimum regulated 35 per cent, whereas Country 96 has committed to no less than 40 per cent, of which 30 per cent will be devoted to new and emerging artists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11818             With respect to current and incremental dollars for Canadian content development, CKOV will contribute $91,000 over seven years, as compared to Country 96's commitment to $1 million in direct expenditures over the term of the licence.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11819             MR. SINGER:  Madam Chair, a further diverse component to Country 96's musical agenda evolves around the creation of a series of special music based programs that will be produced in studio and aired on the station's regular program schedule.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11820             The creation of these special programs is in keeping with CJVR's approach to CCD that combines on‑air exposure of Canadian talent along with financial support through a series of direct expenditures on a diverse mix of initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11821             The following programs are largely devoted to the on‑air promotion and exposure of Canadian Country music artists and will feature many new and emerging artists:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11822             Country 96 Release Party; Canadian Coast to Coast; Country 96 Club Night Live; Okanagan Country Gospel; West Coast Country Sunday; and Country Roots.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11823             Madam Chair, in addition to its great music, Country 96 will provide listeners with locally relevant, community driven spoken word programming that will reflect and portray Kelowna, its people, and its culture, through the daily coverage of local events and activities that are happening in the city and surrounding communities.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11824             To ensure that Country 96 achieves these objectives, CJVR has formulated a broadcast plan that will enable the station to keep a steady finger on the daily pulse of life and times within Kelowna and the Central Okanagan.  This will be achieved in a number of ways, including a series of spoken word features as outlined in our supplementary brief.  These include among others:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11825             Okanagan Connections; Culturally Speaking; Okanagan Mosaics; Kelowna Lifestyle; and City Beat.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11826             County 96 will also produce a weekly 60‑minute news magazine styled program entitled "An Okanagan Perspective" which airs Sunday mornings at 10:00 and features four 15‑minute segments that are directly relevant to Kelowna and area residents.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11827             Country 96 will also provide throughout the broadcast week day and up until noon on weekends, regular local news and surveillance information packages to round out the programming needs and preferences of its 45‑plus listenership spectrum.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11828             CJVR is also committed to reflecting the diversity of the region's cultural heritage through its daily musical and spoken word programming as well as through vignettes provided by groups and individuals from various backgrounds with a story to tell.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11829             In recognition of Kelowna's cultural achievements, CJVR will establish a full time arts and culture coordinator, who will provide comprehensive coverage of the city's dynamic arts and culture universe, as well as coordinate Country 96's participation in all such matters.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11830             MR. GEMMELL:  Madam Chair, approve of CJVR's application will have a highly beneficial impact on Canadian talent in Kelowna and the Central Okanagan as Country 96 implements its creative and meaningful array of direct and indirect spending initiatives and special programming undertakings, designed to develop, promote and expose local talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11831             CJVR brings to Kelowna and Country 96 a proud legacy of excellence, achievement and commitment to talent development that has significantly impacted on the careers of many successful Canadian Country music artists.  It will be Country 96's goal to build on that legacy which first took root on the prairies of Saskatchewan over 41 years ago.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11832             Following the new Commercial Radio Policy 2006 guidelines, CJVR's CCD plans over the term of the licence call for a minimum direct expenditure of $1 million, plus an indirect on‑air expenditure of $1 million.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11833             The eight direct expenditure initiatives as outlined in detail in our supplementary brief are as follows:

LISTNUM 1 \l 11834             $219,000, FACTOR talent fund; $140,000 Music Business 101; $103,500, Okanagan Symphony Youth Extended Educational Program; $244,500, Opening Act; $147,500 Kelowna Parks Alive Festival ‑ Country 96 Free Stage; $43,500, Kelowna Canadian Day Folk Fest and Taste of Home; $55,500, Komasket First Nation Music Festival; and $46,500, B.C. Country Music Association.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11835             MR. FABRO:  Madam Chair, it is my family's firm conviction that CJVR's musical and spoken word programming initiatives, coupled with its very substantial CCD commitments, truly reflects our unyielding commitment to Kelowna, its residents, the business community and local developing talent.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11836             Kelowna wants and needs Country 96 with its unduplicated Blended Country music format, locally relevant community driven spoken word programming, and its exciting array of CCD commitments, all of which, if approved, will take local radio to another level.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11837             In turn, CJVR, as a dedicated career broadcaster, needs Kelowna and Country 96 as we continue to expand our business, enhance our competitiveness, maintain a strong independent radio voice and position ourselves as a viable licensing alternative in markets across western Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11838             Again, we would urge the Commission to look at our application for the real diversity and listener choice that it represents to an ever growing and underserved 45‑plus population and for its ability to strengthen and enhance Kelowna's private radio sector and the Canadian broadcasting system as a whole.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11839             Madam Chair, the operation and co‑existence of two distinctly different Country formatted radio stations in Kelowna would not be precedence setting.  The Commission need look no further than the October 30, 2006 Regina hearing and subsequent decision which approved Standard Broadcasting for a new Country station for Regina whose market conditions and population virtually parallel those in Kelowna.  Further, in the Saskatoon, Brandon and Halifax markets, which are somewhat similar in size, a Hot New Country and a Traditional Country station co‑exist.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11840             We respectfully urge you to approve our application to provide Kelowna and its residents the quality of radio service they so richly deserve.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11841             We thank you and the Commission for this opportunity to present our application, and will be happy to answer any questions the panel may have.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11842             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr. Fabro and your colleagues.  I will ask Commissioner Morin to lead the questioning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11843             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Good morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11844             As the CRTC, we are always wondering about the local impact of a proposed station.  When I am reading at your oral presentation this morning on page 7, you said that:

"CJVR's estimated revenue in year one will be $1.7 million.  Of this amount, we anticipate that only 6 per cent will come from existing radio stations."

LISTNUM 1 \l 11845             My question is simple.  How did you get those numbers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11846             MR. SINGER:  Thank you, Commissioner Morin.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11847             I would like to have Kevin comment on that, if you will allow, please.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11848             MR. GEMMELL:  Thank you, Mr. Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11849             We have been looking at various markets where new stations have entered the market.  I guess I would like to draw you to first of all the Edmonton comparison.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11850             In 2003 the Commission allowed three new licence options in that market.  Over the course of 2005 and 2006 they were implemented.  We see, when a new station enters the market, a substantial growth in revenue because of those new licences.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11851             In the case of Edmonton, 2004 revenue with 12 stations was about $52 million.  In 2006 with now 15 stations on the air, the market revenue grew by $12 million.  So there was almost a minimal effect on the incumbent operators because the market grew at that point.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11852             So, again, the $102,000 or the 6 per cent that we show, which is just 1 per cent of the current market revenue, would be of minimal impact to the incumbent operators.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11853             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  We note that CKOV‑FM, Jim Pattison is offering a Country music format targeting a similar demographic.  Is your County format still viable with the decision of Jim Pattison's group to occupy a Country format?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11854             MR. SINGER:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11855             First of all, we believe that the Pattison format, as outlined in our oral presentation, is not the same demographic target.  Certainly, we are both playing country music, should we be licensed for Kelowna, but two totally different approaches.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11856             Perhaps I will ask Dean Sinclair to comment on those differences a bit further.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11857             MR. SINCLAIR:  Thanks, ken.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11858             Commissioner Morin, essentially, just to follow on Ken's lead, the incumbent station right now targets an audience that is younger, about 18 to 34.  That goes without any BBM ratings at this point.  But if you take the style of the radio station parallel to their style of station in Vancouver, and other markets across country, the radio station caters really to playing hot new music, breaking new music and spinning records at high rotation.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11859             It is a small playlist, as we alluded to in our piece today, of about 500 songs.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11860             The difference of that and the proposal that we are putting together is a blended sound that goes back over five decades.  About over 60 per cent of the music that this station in the market currently plays is from the last three years.  Ours would go back over a much greater period of time.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11861             One of the visuals we used in the room, and we talked about it in terms of how we describe the differences, if you took my little yellow notepad of the CKOV playlist, it would be about this big, and ours is about that big.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11862             That is sort of the basis of the style of music that we have, and then how those songs are treated on the air is somewhat different.  We would eventually add the music that the station breaks in this market down the road but not initially.  We would really draw on our past catalogue.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11863             MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, if I could add further to that, when evaluating the differences in the format, I think you also have to take into consideration the other elements of the format.  Many of our spoken word initiatives are clearly targeting a 45‑plus demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11864             So, it is the full service mixture of what we are proposing I feel adds more credence to the overall difference between the incumbent and ourselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11865             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  You are proposing that you are targeting the 55‑plus age group.  Will your proposed service cater to a specific core age group and, if so, what would it be?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11866             MR. SINGER:  I will again ask Dean to give you a bit of an overview on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11867             MR. SINCLAIR:  Thanks, Ken.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11868             Commissioner Morin, actually the main thrust of the radio station is 45‑plus is where it starts off at.  It will certainly cater to 55‑plus.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11869             The footprint of the radio station is big.  In the case of Country radio, if you have a station in markets like we see in Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg, Regina, Saskatoon, where one station leaves off the other doesn't pick up necessarily, so there is a little bit of overlap.  But the bullet target of our station probably is around the age of 44, 45.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11870             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  On page 54 of your written application, you said that there is a significant degree of dissatisfaction expressed by the respondents, including about the amount of information available about local news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11871             What percentage of your broadcasts would be devoted to local news, I mean pure news, excluding surveillance material?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11872             MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, we are proposing eight hours of news and related surveillance.  That does not include the weather, sports and traffic.  Eight hours and 52 minutes, I am sorry, is our figure.  Just about all of that would be local news.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11873             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  As a matter of fact, according to the calculations of the CRTC, news and surveillance would only total five hours and 32 minutes per broadcast week and not eight hours, 52 minutes, as you just said.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11874             Could you explain this discrepancy and how did you get your numbers?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11875             MR. SINGER:  Our news figures, our total minutes are 152 minutes and 30 seconds of news alone.  What does that work out to, Kevin?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11876             If you give me a minute, Mr. Commissioner, I would just like to ‑‑ we have 128 minutes of news, Monday through Friday; we have another 12 and a half minutes on Saturday; and we have another 12 and a half minutes on Sunday.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11877             I am really not sure how that ‑‑ I am sorry, I apologize for the further discrepancy, but if we could possibly file a break out of our calculations as soon as we are finished here today, if that would be allowable, Madam Chair, we would appreciate that opportunity to come back to you with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11878             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, as long as you are confident you can file that before the start of Phase II.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11879             MR. SINGER:  We will get to work on that as soon as we are done here this morning.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11880             THE CHAIRPERSON:  That would be great.  You have a lunch break.  Thanks.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11881             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  As far as the news, sports information and programming is concerned, I understand that four full‑time employees will be involved.  But I see, for example, that one person will be the News Director, reporter and announcer.  So, how much time will this person spend gathering news, the local news, of which I understand the people of Kelowna are deprived?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11882             MR. SINGER:  Our news staff, of course their first priority is the news department and the preparation of the newscasts.  Our News Director, when I say News Director/reporter/announcer, means that that individual will not only direct the department, but will be in charge of going out covering stories and actually being on the air, most likely being the news reporter or news announcer on the morning show.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11883             The other positions, two news positions, would be handling other beats on the radio station in terms of shifts, going out and doing reporting.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11884             We certainly feel that that is a strong contingent for a market this size and do believe that the resources are there to produce the news content that we have indicated.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11885             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Aren't you worried that these employees, and not just this one, aren't you worried that these employees won't have enough time to cover and gather the news, I mean the local news?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11886             MR. SINGER:  We have similar commitments in our other radio stations with a contingency similar to this.  Certainly it does at times provide challenges of being everywhere at all times, but I should also say that under our spoken word programming, we are developing a very all‑inclusive program of spoken word, which will involve many correspondents in terms of community correspondents as news contacts for our News Department and other areas, our Programming Department, who will all be, I guess, helping us to be more eyes and ears in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11887             I am not trying to imply that these are part of our hired staff, but it does make the job a bit easier because whether you have three news people or six news people, you have to look outside for some additional help.  Without question, when you marry these resources and I guess the contacts that we hope to endeavour to develop within the new market, we certainly feel that, once again, we have the resources to deliver on our promise.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11888             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  You project that in the first year you will get a 10 per cent share of the listenership.  This percentage is projected to be 28 per cent by the end of the licence.  What will happen if you only get 15 per cent?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11889             MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, I don't think we would be here today if we were not up to the challenge of whatever lays ahead here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11890             I can assure you that we did not just quickly put this application together and we certainly put a lot of thought into the potential for operators such as ourselves.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11891             But I can tell you this that should we fall short of our expectations, we are here for the long term.  Most definitely, Mr. Fabro and his family have indicated and shown to us over a period of many years the type of support that is behind our operations.  We are well funded and we certainly have the belief that you have to be patient and grow your operations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11892             Gene, if you would like to comment further on that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11893             MR. FABRO:  Mr. Commissioner, my family, as we mentioned, we own Fabmar Investments Limited, which is a family‑owned holding company.  The radio business, CJVR Limited, by gross revenue basis is about 5 per cent of our total annual income.  So there is not a major concern for us if we were to miss the mark on what happens in Kelowna.  We have the financial resources to support this as long as it takes to make it successful.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11894             That being said, I was just talking to Linda yesterday, and we find the top ten employees with us, the longest time maybe have got 19 years of experience on average, and diversified experience, good solid radio experience.  So I don't think there is a problem with us coming into this market and adjusting to make the business plan work, notwithstanding I think we have an excellent business plan right now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11895             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  I appreciate your answer, but I am just wondering about your share projection of 28 per cent by year seven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11896             If you don't mind, could you clarify the methodology and assumptions that have been used to establish this number and those which have been forecasted before year seven?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11897             MR. SINGER:  I will turn this over to Lang McGilp from Insightrix to comment further.  We have been operating in this business for four decades and certainly believe in our format evaluations and the potential format in relationship to what is being offered in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11898             We also understand that there is a tremendous amount of out‑of‑market tuning presently in this market.  So, right off the get go, I guess, by filling a void as identified in our research, we hope to repatriate a fair amount of that listening.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11899             Having said that, I will ask Lang to comment on this further.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11900             MR. McGILP:  Thank you, Ken, and thank you Mr. Commissioner.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11901             A variety of assumptions and estimations were made to develop market share estimates for CJVR with this proposed Country 96.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11902             In the first year, there is obviously an estimate that the size of the market will grow in terms of number of hours tuned.  We have obviously conducted research that suggests that a large portion of people would be interested in listening more often to the radio if a new station was available, playing something that they like.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11903             In fact, 59 per cent of those over the age of 55 indicated that they would listen to the radio more often.  So, that was definitely one element that factored into what sort of share there would be.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11904             In terms of coming up with a 10 per cent originally estimated for the first year, we took a look at those that expressed strong interest with the montage of the Blended Country station that was played to them over the telephone.  Those who said they would very much like the station as in rating it a 5 on a 1 to 5 scale, if they only spend 20 per cent of their time listening to that new station, which is a conservative estimate, and those who rated a 4, which show some level of interest obviously in that Blended station, if only 9 per cent of their time is spent listening to the new station, that comes out to, when you run the numbers, without getting into all those details, it comes out to a 10 per cent market share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11905             For the subsequent years, a variety of increase in listenership due to the fiercely loyal listenership within that age range, as Mr. Sinclair has mentioned, was used to arrive at a gradual increase in market share.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11906             MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, just further to that and very briefly, again because our target is a 45‑plus demographic, and that is clearly the fastest growing and most predominant portion of the marketplace, we feel also that in terms of our projected growth, if we continue to cater to the 45‑plus, we feel that there is a much greater opportunity for that growth as opposed to catering to the 18 to 34s that are being served by at least two of the four FM stations in the market now.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11907             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  My last question:  Why do you believe that your format will provide the greatest degree of programming diversity and represent the best choice of format to serve the adult population of Kelowna?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11908             MR. SINGER:  I can ask Mr. Sinclair, if you wish, Mr. Commissioner, to elaborate further on the musical component, but in a general way, let me say that our full service approach to serving this community with a radio station that provides not just a diverse musical mix with our Blended Country format, but also the very all encompassing spoken word elements, I feel are unique to the marketplace in terms of the broad range of spoken word and special programming we are intending to implement, and most definitely combine that with our CCD initiatives that are not just the cash, but the involvement in the community through those initiatives.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11909             So, our mandate is to engage the local market and to involve them or act as a service to them in every possible way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11910             As far as the musical components, if you wish again to have Mr. Sinclair elaborate further on the diversities of those formats or of our two formats, I would be happy to turn it over to him.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11911             MR. SINCLAIR:  Thanks, Ken.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11912             Commissioner Morin, the other thing I would just add into this in the market now, we have outlined the background of comparison between what the current country station in the market does right now in terms of being a Hot New Country station, we have talked about our target audience of 45‑plus and up into the 55‑plus demographic.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11913             If you look at the spectrums of radio stations is in the market now, one of the factors that plays into our favour despite some of the changes that have happened recently is if you have two radio stations that have essentially abandoned the 45‑plus market already.  One of those was an Oldies station that plays 50s and 60s music that became a News/Talk station recent weeks ago, and then the other stations we have talked about with Pattison CKOV, which essentially was a Soft Vocals radio station with bits of talk and information in there that abandoned that to go Hot Country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11914             Those two stations catered to the 45‑plus audience in the market, and they have disappeared.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11915             What you have now in the market is you have those two stations, one is a News/Talk, one is a young Country radio station and then you have a Rock station that spans a wide range, as we have heard from other applicants talk about, in the market now that caters to 12‑plus, which isn't a demographic really, is a family reunion.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11916             Then you have two Adult Contemporary stations that again start young and go into the upper end.  But again they are getting audience in the marketplace more by accident than by design.  So that upper echelon, that upper audience of 45‑plus presently has, outside of maybe the CBC, nothing to turn to.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11917             I hope that helps.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11918             COMMISSIONER MORIN:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11919             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11920             Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11921             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Good morning, Mr. Fabro and Mr. Singer and panellists.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11922             Mr. Fabro and Mr. Singer, I will address these couple of questions to both of you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11923             Could you please give us your views as to the importance of small independent broadcasters to ensure the success of the Canadian broadcasting system, please?  How important are small independent broadcasters in the Canadian broadcasting system?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11924             MR. SINGER:  Thank you, Commissioner Williams.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11925             We obviously think they are very, very important or we wouldn't have been in front of you as many times as we have in the past two years.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11926             Our industry has changed a tremendous amount in most markets, especially the smaller markets.  Years ago there was quite a balance between the bigger players, which by comparison today, really maybe couldn't be called bigger players, but there were a fair amount of independents throughout the markets in our country.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11927             Today, with all of the convergences and most recently we are seeing the very biggest getting even bigger, it is leaving very, very few smaller independent operators in the business.  I think that has been pointed out on previous appearances at this hearing by the independents once again.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11928             Our feeling is that our type of locally focused community driven radio is still a unique aspect to the broadcasting system.  We make our decisions on the ground here at home base.  We most definitely believe in more of a one‑on‑one with our audience than perhaps some of the bigger operators do.  Consequently, it takes a few more resources, but certainly we believe that that local element of radio that we have practised for 40 years is unique to the smaller players.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11929             We have to work a little harder to achieve a market status, but we feel we have the resources even though we are smaller.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11930             I guess, again, just looking at the change in our industry over the 40 years that I have been involved in this business, at times it is kind of frightening to think what is the next big takeover in terms of, when you look at the cable business as an example, the concentration of ownership in that field, is radio going that direction?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11931             I wonder, Gene, do you have something further to add to that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11932             MR. FABRO:  Yes, I do, Mr. Commissioner, and Ken.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11933             Our coverage area, we think we have the largest FM coverage area in Canada.  Our coverage area on our FM is 58,000 square kilometres.  That is almost twice the size of Vancouver Island.  That is huge.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11934             We service 125,000 people in over 100 tiny communities.  When I go to the station, I am just truly amazed about the culture there and it is all about delivering what people want to hear in their own little tiny communities, whether the bus is running to get to school in the morning or the three hockey teams we cover or the U of S Huskies that are in our coverage area or at least we cover.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11935             It is truly amazing.  Some of the sales staff will actually cover as on‑air staff when required.  They will cover the local council meeting.  They will do interviews with the Mayor.  They will have what we call community salutes, where we actually do a salute to each community in our listening area.  It is truly a different type of radio than what I believe the larger, national operators operate.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11936             They tend to do it more from an economic point of view.  We do it from an economics point of view, but also from a love of the business.  Trust me, you really have to listen to our stations to really get that feel of community driven.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11937             In addition to, like I mentioned earlier, because of the long history we have of the top ten people that run our stations, it is like a big city station in a small city market because we have excellent programming from the music perspective, but we have tremendous life blood of the community.  It is in their veins.  That is the type of thing that we can bring to this market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11938             Could you imagine if we bring the size of Vancouver Island, 125,000 people, come to Kelowna market, which is similar in size and this really concentrated area and deliver the same type of service?  It would just truly be a tremendous thing for the community to bring the life and blood of Saskatchewan and Alberta into B.C.  I think it would really make a difference.  That is a long way around to say that is the difference from the big guys to the small guys.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11939             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  So, small independent broadcasters are very important to the Canadian broadcasting system?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11940             MR. FABRO:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11941             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  How important is local ownership and the accountability that may come with that?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11942             MR. FABRO:  When you say local ownership, Mr. Commissioner, do you mean local as in local right here in the Valley, for example, or local as in western Canada?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11943             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  I think if you can answer both ways, that would be good, local as right in Yorkton, for example, and local as in western Canada.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11944             MR. FABRO:  I think western Canadians tend to have a different perspective.  No slight against people from central Ontario or from the east coast, but we have a different perspective.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11945             My own personal view is we are a little bit more entrepreneurial.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11946             My father was in the coal mining business for his entire life.  Him and his partner developed a coal mine in southeastern British Columbia.  My uncle was in the radio business in Cranbrook.  That is where we got our love of the business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11947             We tend to understand the western aspect of the people out here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11948             I don't truly believe you have to be local in ownership, but I think you have to have a local understanding of what the market is doing and what is going on locally in the community.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11949             I guess the short answer is we are from the west.  We understand the western ways in the fabric of the small western Canadian towns and I think Kelowna is one of those.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11950             MR. SINGER:  Further to that, Commissioner Williams, I think as important as locally owned is locally engaged.  I can assure you our style of radio, the ownership of CJVR is locally engaged.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11951             We are not proposing a radio station to be operated in Kelowna, but directed from our corporate hub, as many of the larger operators do.  We will have a distinctive local staff here, program director, station manager, that, as mentioned earlier, will be making decisions that are best for Kelowna, not necessarily something that is going to fit well for all of our stations.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11952             Certainly there are synergies there, but it is not our intent to have a station here that is merely a wing of our other radio stations, if you know where I am going with that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11953             MR. FABRO:  Can I just add something, Mr. Commissioner?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11954             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Absolutely.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11955             MR. FABRO:  My family is a history of entrepreneurs.  As I mentioned, my father started with a coal mine and my brothers and sister all have had their own entrepreneurial business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11956             When you are an entrepreneur, you have to deal with the big guy and the small guy as competitors.  You have to be quick on your feet.  You have to have the right people, capital, resources and longevity.  You have to have enough staying power to make sure that the job gets done.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11957             As I mentioned earlier, our radio business is around 5 per cent of our total revenue for our holding company.  So we are not afraid to play in the big markets with the big guys and we are not afraid to play with the Pattisons of this world in Kelowna or wherever we go.  We know how to play and succeed in any market that we are in in any business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11958             As a matter of fact, just to go on from there, about the Valley here, the Okanagan Valley, our development company, Sure Developments Limited, just yesterday signed a purchase and sale agreement to purchase some land in The Rise in Vernon.  We believe in the Valley.  We think there's a long‑term growth here.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11959             We are going to look at Kelowna as perhaps a place to develop our condominiums.  We are in discussions with a potential joint venture partner in Penticton.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11960             In addition, the whole Valley here, as there are in places like Victoria and southern Ontario, are where the baby boomers are going to flock to.  There is like 10 million baby boomers in the country, and they will probably inherit something like $1 trillion in the next 25 years.  So there will be a lot of people flocking to the warm sections of the country, which the Okanagan is.  And we think the growth will be tremendous here.  If we are not here in the radio business, we will be here in the development business.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11961             We believe in this Valley and we believe in Kelowna.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11962             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Mr. Singer, you used the phrase "locally engaged."  Given that your company is not from Kelowna, what was the extent of your local consultation prior to submitting your application?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11963             MR. SINGER:  Mr. Commissioner, Kevin and I visited the market quite some time ago at the call of the application.  We walked the streets.  We stopped and visited with people.  We talked to local organizers and a broad range of community organizations, talked to retailers, average people in the market and certainly got a sense of their feelings about the market, the available choices on the radio dial and the future of the market in terms of their anticipated growth.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11964             Then we went into the field using Lang's company, Insightrix Research, to evaluate that further.  Our early discussions were quite clear to us that there was a void here and, again, our broadcasting experience told us there was a void here when we looked at the various things that the radio stations were doing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11965             I would like to point out, too, that our early discussions with the community here, they were very complimentary to the services that are on the radio dial here in Kelowna, but just as importantly, they felt that Kelowna has grown to a size that it is time for more choices on the dial and, in particular, the older the person we talked to, the more they felt that way.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11966             COMMISSIONER WILLIAMS:  Thank you very much, Mr. Fabro and Mr. Singer.  That concludes my questions, Madam Chair.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11967             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11968             I have no doubt of your commitment not only to the medium but to the genre because during the audio clip I saw a few of your heads bopping to the music.  I thought it was great.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11969             I want to understand fully your position in light of the new dynamic in the market, and that is of course the change in format that we have talked about.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11970             You filed your application prior to that change in format of the incumbent and, therefore, all of your projections were based, I am assuming, on you being the only Country station in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11971             Is it your position that despite the format change that you will achieve the audience share that you had filed, that you will achieve, therefore, the revenue projections that you had filed and that, therefore, in other words the change in format of the incumbent will not have a material impact on your financial projections?

LISTNUM 1 \l 11972             MR. SINGER:  We are confident that what we filed prior to the change by CKLV still stands today.  The reason we feel that way, Madam Chair, is that we are focusing at a demographic that is underserved in the marketplace.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11973             Our research substantiated that a Blended Country format was what they preferred.  Remember, we researched the market twice, once with a more Hot New Country mix and we weren't satisfied with what we heard there.  It tested well and clearly at that time there was no other choice other than The Giant in Penticton for country music fans.  So, it tested fairly well and it encouraged us that we should pursue Country, but we evaluated that research and said, gee, you know, it is not as strong as it should be and went back into the field with another sample of 400 and tested an actual montage more similar to what you heard here today, more of a blended mix and a broader range of eras, and clearly the 45‑plus and older demo indicated that is the one.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11974             With Pattison coming on stream and not doing that, we said, well, gee, that is a good thing.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11975             Here is the other thing that has happened too which I think strengthens us holding the line on our original application is that with what has happened with Standard's AM station abandoning another music format for Talk, and that was an Oldies format that was appealing to a 45‑ and a 55‑plus demo in particular, so now people with a taste for that particular music have been left without a musical choice and because the Pattison AM station catered to a much older demographic than they are with their new FM, they have taken a 45‑plus demo and said, okay, now somebody else will have to cater to that.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11976             So, now we have two pods of audience here that have had some local radio interest that have now been sort of set aside for somebody else to target.  Again, I go back to the balance in the market of the incumbent FM stations, the majority of them are now programming again to the 18 to 34s.

LISTNUM 1 \l 11977             So, yes, we feel that it is frustrating, yet that is the reality.  We certainly respect that the Pattison Group change was well within the regulations, but we feel the end result at the end of the day is we still got a strong, strong alternative here and we can achieve those shares that we projected based on serving a very important and significant number of 45‑plus listeners in the market.

LISTNUM 1 \l 1