TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS BEFORE

             THE CANADIAN RADIO‑TELEVISION AND

               TELECOMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

             TRANSCRIPTION DES AUDIENCES DEVANT

              LE CONSEIL DE LA RADIODIFFUSION

           ET DES TÉLÉCOMMUNICATIONS CANADIENNES

                      SUBJECT / SUJET:

Unresolved issues related to the accessibility of

telecommunications and broadcasting services to

persons with disabilities /

Questions en suspens concernant l'accessibilité des

services de télécommunication et de radiodiffusion pour

les personnes handicapées

HELD AT:                              TENUE À:

Conference Centre                     Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                        Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage              140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                      Gatineau (Québec)

November 21, 2008                     Le 21 novembre 2008

Transcripts

In order to meet the requirements of the Official Languages

Act, transcripts of proceedings before the Commission will be

bilingual as to their covers, the listing of the CRTC members

and staff attending the public hearings, and the Table of

Contents.

However, the aforementioned publication is the recorded

verbatim transcript and, as such, is taped and transcribed in

either of the official languages, depending on the language

spoken by the participant at the public hearing.

Transcription

Afin de rencontrer les exigences de la Loi sur les langues

officielles, les procès‑verbaux pour le Conseil seront

bilingues en ce qui a trait à la page couverture, la liste des

membres et du personnel du CRTC participant à l'audience

publique ainsi que la table des matières.

Toutefois, la publication susmentionnée est un compte rendu

textuel des délibérations et, en tant que tel, est enregistrée

et transcrite dans l'une ou l'autre des deux langues

officielles, compte tenu de la langue utilisée par le

participant à l'audience publique.

               Canadian Radio‑television and

               Telecommunications Commission

            Conseil de la radiodiffusion et des

               télécommunications canadiennes

                 Transcript / Transcription

Unresolved issues related to the accessibility of

telecommunications and broadcasting services to

persons with disabilities /

Questions en suspens concernant l'accessibilité des

services de télécommunication et de radiodiffusion pour

les personnes handicapées

BEFORE / DEVANT:

Leonard Katz                      Chairperson / Président

Elizabeth Duncan                  Commissioner / Conseillère

Timothy Denton                    Commissioner / Conseiller

Suzanne Lamarre                   Commissioner / Conseillère

Candice Molnar                    Commissioner / Conseillère

Stephen Simpson                   Commissioner / Conseiller

ALSO PRESENT / AUSSI PRÉSENTS:

Sylvie Bouffard                   Secretary / Secretaire

Kathleen Taylor                   Hearing Manager /

                                  Gérante de l'audience

Martine Vallée                    Director, Social Policy /

                                  Directrice, Politiques

Sheila Perron                     Hearing Officer /

                                  Agente d'audiences

Lori Pope                         Legal Counsel /

Véronique Lehoux                  Conseillères juridiques

HELD AT:                          TENUE À:

Conference Centre                 Centre de conférences

Outaouais Room                    Salle Outaouais

140 Promenade du Portage          140, Promenade du Portage

Gatineau, Quebec                  Gatineau (Québec)

November 21, 2008                 Le 21 novembre 2008

- iv -

           TABLE DES MATIÈRES / TABLE OF CONTENTS

                                                 PAGE / PARA

PRESENTATION BY / PRÉSENTATION PAR:

MTS Allstream                                    1244 / 7462

GoAmerica, Inc.                                  1339 / 8083

Sorenson Communications of Canada, ULC           1412 / 8550

National Broadcast Reading Service               1472 / 8956

Gatineau, Quebec / Gatineau (Québec)

‑‑‑ Upon resuming on Friday, November 21, 2008

    at 0900 / L'audience reprend le vendredi

    21 novembre 2008 à 0900

7452             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Good morning and welcome to day five, but not the last day, of this proceeding.

7453             Madam Secretary, any opening remarks?

7454             THE SECRETARY:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.  Bonjour à tous.

7455             I would just like to remind you that when you are in the hearing room we ask that you completely turn off your cell phones and BlackBerrys as they are an unwelcome distraction and as they will cause interference on the internal communication systems used by our translators and interpreters.

7456             We would appreciate your cooperation in this regard throughout the hearing.

7457             Please note also that ASL and LSQ sign language interpretation services will be made available throughout the hearing if needed.  Please advise the Hearing Secretary if you require such services.

7458             Furthermore, French and English captioning of the hearing is available on the screens to my left, as well as on the CRTC's Web home page.

7459             If you require assistance during the consultation, our staff members in and outside the hearing room or in the public examination room will be pleased to help you.

7460             We will begin this morning's presentations with MTS Allstream.

7461             Please introduce yourselves and proceed with your 15‑minute presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

7462             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Good morning.  My name is Teresa Griffin‑Muir.  I am the Vice‑President of Regulatory Affairs at MTS Allstream.

7463             With me today are Kelvin Shepherd, the President of our Consumer Markets Division, and Pat Solman, Vice‑President, Customer Care.

7464             Kelvin provides the overall direction, strategy and leadership for MTS Allstream's consumer and small business markets and is responsible for sales, service and operational support for customers in Manitoba.

7465             Pat is in charge of customer care in Manitoba, including special needs assistance.

7466             Now I will turn it over to Kelvin to make our presentation.

7467             MR. SHEPHERD:  Good morning.

7468             I would first like to express our support for the need for us to continue to make accommodations for customers faced with accessibility challenges when trying to use our products and services.  We also appreciate the challenge the Commission is facing in trying to determine which initiatives will deliver substantial and sustainable benefits to these customers.

7469             Some issues faced by these customers have been alleviated by initiatives such as the introduction of Manitoba relay service, closed captioning and described video services that were undertaken as a consequence of previous Commission decisions.

7470             As well, technological advances, particularly in the area of terminal equipment, have played a role in improving the accessibility of communications services.

7471             For example, TTY devices are generally more portable today than they were even a few years ago and SMS, or Short Message Service, is enabling hearing‑impaired individuals to communicate seamlessly with their friends and business associates.

7472             However, the number of diverse proposals from the individuals and organizations participating in the proceeding serve to highlight the breadth of the challenges faced by customers themselves on the one hand and the challenges in developing solutions to achieve economically sustainable seamless accessibility on the other.

7473             Through the course of this proceeding some parties have made proposals that could help achieve this delicate balance.  One such accommodation that may deliver heightened accessibility and that has been requested by and on behalf of persons who are deaf, deafened and hard of hearing, is a national video relay service, or national VRS as it is referred to.

7474             In fact, the Canadian Association of the Deaf even identified VRS as "the top priority at the moment for deaf people".

7475             While we would not be able to implement VRS on our own, we would be willing to participate in a national VRS offering.  Of course, care will have to be taken in choosing a solution that is cost efficient as well as effective in meeting the needs of the users of the service.  As well, a funding mechanism would be necessary to support VRS.

7476             Another theme that has emerged from the varied proposals received during this proceeding is the focus on customer service.

7477             While there continue to be practical and economic challenges, we have been able to retain a special services representative to help accommodate Manitobans with special needs by helping them to find the best product and service solutions to meet their individual communications requirements.  Our service relationship with all our customers is an integral part of who we are.

7478             Therefore, to the greatest extent practicable, we undertake to provide all our customers with a service experience that gives them value.

7479             MS SOLMAN:  This proceeding has highlighted the diverse service needs of customers with accessibility issues.  Because these needs are so diverse, we as service providers face significant challenges in providing services that truly meet customer needs while fitting in with economic realities.

7480             While we cannot tailor all solutions to every individual need, we will continue to develop a number ways to make our products and services more accessible.  To this end, we will be introducing several initiatives in 2009 to improve the affordability and effectiveness of communications for Manitobans with disabilities.  These include improved long distance calling plans for Manitoba relay service users and a wireless text and data plan for individuals with auditory impairments.

7481             We will also be setting up an accessibility product display kiosk in the MTS Corporate Store to provide information about our accessibility products and services.  The kiosk will also allow customers to check out products before buying.

7482             As well, we are examining the feasibility of waiving certain feature charges, like the Star‑69 fee, to assist MTS Allstream customers with visual impairments.

7483             Also, we are using some of the deferral account funds to make our MTS.ca consumer website more accessible to people with visual, hearing, motor and cognitive impairments.

7484             In order to ensure these modifications are of value to our customers with accessibility issues, we engaged an accessibility expert to review the current state of the MTS.ca website and recommend improvements to make the website more accessible.  With the assessment just completed, we have now commenced work on the design of the revamped site and expect to fully launch in Q4 2009.

7485             Our first step has been to go live with a new web page on MTS.ca that provides details of the products and services that MTS Allstream currently offers in Manitoba to enhance communications for our customers with disabilities.  Feedback from customers who use this web page will assist us with future refinements.

7486             Our plan, in keeping with the recommendations made in the accessibility assessment, is to follow the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines version 2.0.  The improvements will enable users with visual difficulties to navigate the website quickly and easily using screen reading software.

7487             As well, all non‑text content that is presented to the user will have a text‑based equivalent.  Instructions provided to assist users with understanding or operating content will not rely solely on sensory characteristics such as shape, size, visual location, orientation or sound.  All web pages will have titles describing their topic or purpose and labels or instructions will be provided when the content requires user input.  Content functionality on each page will be accessible through a keyboard interface.

7488             These are just some examples of the improvements that are being planned.

7489             We are also establishing new internal processes to ensure accessibility guidelines are adhered to for future changes, including the design of new pages on MTS.ca.  Our goal is to have a fluid policy with respect to accessibility.

7490             In the case of the website, this will be achieved by ensuring that as new pages are added accessible functions are maintained.

7491             As further insurance, we will also be putting in place quality control measures, including conducting periodic reviews of the MTS.ca website, to ensure ongoing accessibility for people with disabilities.

7492             This proceeding has increased our sensitivity to the numerous and diverse accessibility needs of our customers.  It is clear that we all face challenges in making services accessible to the widest possible number of customers.  We are optimistic that, in addition to the measures already in place and under way, many of these challenges will be addressed through continued advances in technology and the rapid evolution of devices that interact with our network.

7493             Thank you for this opportunity to participate in the hearing.

7494             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.

7495             I would ask Commissioner Molnar to begin some follow‑up questions.

7496             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Good morning.  Thank you for your presentation.

7497             I am going to begin by some questions related to your telecommunications services and let's maybe begin with the issue of relay services.

7498             Today do you provide relay services in‑house or is that a contract?  Do you contract that out?

7499             MS SOLMAN:  Our Manitoba relay services is provided in‑house.

7500             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  It is in‑house?

7501             MS SOLMAN:  It is in‑house, yes.

7502             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  One of the things we have asked other parties, and I would ask of you as well, is if you could provide us some information or the information regarding the volume of transactions that you have processed through your in‑house message relay over the last five years.

7503             MS SOLMAN:  Over the last five years, okay.  We can do that.

7504             Today the process about 8,000 calls in a month.  That is the current volumes today in the past 12 months, but we can take it back and provide the last five years.

7505             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Maybe what I would ask ‑‑ I may perhaps need to be a little clearer between MTS and MTS Allstream.

7506             Does your in‑house service also provides service for your Allstream business customers?

7507             MS SOLMAN:  No, it only provides service to consumer customers in Manitoba.

7508             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Oh, okay.  That's good.  Thank you.  So if you would provide those details.

7509             Do you have with you the rate you charge for message relay?

7510             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Yes, it's $.25.

7511             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  $.25?

7512             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Yes.

7513             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Do you also charge your business customers?

7514             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  I guess the single‑line business customers.

7515             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.  And outside of Manitoba?

7516             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Outside of Manitoba it would be the rate that the ILEC in those areas charges.  It's just a kind of flowthrough rate.

7517             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Another piece of information that I have asked of some other participants is, if you could, to give us a sense as to what are the primary cost components of providing message relay service in‑house.

7518             Obviously operator services is a key component.  Do you provide the TTY units as part of that $.25 charge?

7519             MS SOLMAN:  No, the customers buy them themselves, the TTY units.

7520             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  So if you could tell us what are the major cost components that ‑‑

7521             MS SOLMAN:  Yes, we can do that.

7522             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.  I note in your presentation that you speak of the national VRS service and you state that you will be prepared to participate in a VRS service.

7523             I didn't see any comments here related to an IP relay service.

7524             Do you have plans today as it relates to IP relay service?

7525             MR. SHEPHERD:  No, we don't have current plans and I don't believe we have really studied the feasibility of IP relay service to any extent.

7526             On the VRS service staff did have some preliminary discussions several years ago looking at the options for VRS and at that time talked to I believe it may have been Sprint U.S., who was interested at least at a high level in the potential of such a service.

7527             However, of course they didn't have French language and other capabilities that would have been required.

7528             I think really the only conclusion we drew from those discussions was that it probably wasn't economic for us to do it independently; that it would have to be probably an outsource or third‑party service and there would have to be a larger initiative in order for us to really be able to effectively participate in that.

7529             I don't believe we have had any discussions or looked seriously at the IP relay service concept.

7530             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Tell me if I'm wrong.  The way I view IP relay service is it is really next generation message relay service.

7531             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes.  As my understanding ‑‑ and I'm certainly not an expert on it, Commissioner ‑‑ it would be an extension of the current MRS to allow broader access through Internet‑based devices, but it would be an extension of the current service.

7532             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.  For the same group of users in effect.

7533             MR. SHEPHERD:  I believe it really would be targeted at the same group of users that would currently access the service, but it would give them a broader access mechanism and potentially perhaps the technology would allow some improvements in the way that access worked.

7534             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.  Would you have any concerns in participating in a national IP relay service initiative?

7535             MR. SHEPHERD:  No, I don't believe we would.  Obviously the concerns would be similar to VRS.  It would be understanding the implementation and how we would participate and the mechanism for cost recovery or funding for the initiative.

7536             But I don't think in principle we would view it as anything that would ‑‑ in fact, we would want to participate if there was such an initiative.

7537             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Really my thoughts ‑‑ and this is only my thought so it maybe means nothing.  If there was to be a national IP relay service, it would seem to me to make some sense to also go to at national MRS operator because of what appears to me to be some economies and synergies.

7538             Would that be of concern to MTS?

7539             MR. SHEPHERD:  Well, I think the issues there would be probably twofold.

7540             Certainly I think in principle an opportunity to improve service accessibility and lower costs would be of interest if it benefited the users of the service.  It would certainly be something we would want to look at.

7541             I think there are some practical issues, because we operate our MRS today in‑house.  There is obviously employment.  It is a unionized workforce so there would be some potential contract issues with outsourcing or contracting out that would have to be looked at.  So there may have to be ‑‑ I think that would be a practical look at it; if we were going to participate in that, how we would be able to address those issues.

7542             I think in terms of the opportunity, if it was cost effective and improved service levels it would be certainly something we would be willing to explore.

7543             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thank you.

7544             I would like to move on to the issue of terminal equipment and particularly wireless and mobile handsets.

7545             Can you tell me if you procure or have available for your customers particular handsets that support the disabled communities?

7546             MR. SHEPHERD:  Specific to wireless handsets we are talking about now, Commissioner?

7547             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.

7548             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes.  Well, we carry a number of wireless handsets that would be compatible with hearing aids or hearing impaired individuals.  Generally those models meet certain specifications.

7549             I'm not familiar with all the details, but we have a reasonable number of handsets that were compatible.

7550             I think we have a number of wireless handsets that are also compatible with TTY devices, and we carry I think at least two TTY devices that will work with those wireless handsets to provide portable TTY service.

7551             We don't have a handset that is specific to a request I often hear, which is for a larger handset, you know, specially designed for people that have more difficulty using a smaller handset with a smaller keyboard.  We at this time don't carry that type of device.

7552             We have had discussions over the years with handset manufacturers about carrying such a kind of specially designed device.  In fact, I think we had recent discussions with one.

7553             Generally speaking we have found it difficult to meet the minimum volume purchase requirements.

7554             You know, typically what we have found in the past is a handset manufacturer will want an order on the order of 5,000 devices, which we have found is uneconomic to commit to a purchase in one year of 5,000 devices of such a kind of specialized device.

7555             So we continue to have the discussions, but we don't carry one of those devices today.

7556             Beyond that, obviously there is a number of what I call more standards SMART phones, text messaging type devices that are used by typically people that are deaf or hearing impaired for text messaging or e‑messaging services.

7557             But we don't offer a handset that is particularly specialized or orientated.  It is generally generally‑available product that people are using for those purposes.

7558             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I'm going to ask the question so Chairman Katz doesn't.

7559             We heard a similar story from SaskTel related to minimum purchase levels and the fact that, you know, the product wasn't available because the company couldn't meet minimum purchase or it wasn't economical.

7560             On the other hand, if you are a consumer who is blind, there is great value in having your service provider provide you that service.  As you know, you get the handset, you get the plan, you get guaranteed service and support, which all falls apart if the terminal isn't brought in by the service provider.

7561             So the challenge that was given to SaskTel, and I think the same challenge given to you is:  How else?  Have you looked?

7562             For example, you run the same network as SaskTel or the same technology.  Have you looked at getting together to meet those minimum buy levels so that you could bring it in and provide a service, you know, a handset that meets the needs of your consumers who have visual disabilities and support that service for them?

7563             MR. SHEPHERD:  Although today we still do some joint procurement with in fact SaskTel and Bell, I believe there have been previous discussions around trying to jointly procure devices.  I'm not sure of all the reasons those haven't been successful.

7564             But I do understand your point, Commissioner, and certainly would agree with you that the optimum situation for the customer is for the service provider to provide a turnkey service that is then supported.  But we don't do that today.

7565             We certainly have had, as I have described, discussions in the past aimed at doing that.  They haven't been successful, but we will continue to have those discussions and, as you suggest, perhaps there are broader alternatives as an industry that we could try to pursue to make some of those things more viable.

7566             Generally speaking, as you say, the technology that we currently are using for wireless is CDMA technology, and it does present some unique challenges in terms of procuring compatible handsets.

7567             Perhaps there are opportunities, even things that will come out of this hearing, as we go forward, that will open up some of those opportunities.

7568             Technologies continue to evolve.  Handsets are continuing to evolve, and we would hope that, at some point in time, we could find an economic way to provide that type of device to customers.

7569             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I think what I heard you say, Mr. Shepherd, is that perhaps sometime it could happen, and perhaps we will have some discussions, which leaves us in a bit of a box, frankly.  If there are no assurances that any of that could occur, then the only way to make those assurances is through regulatory directive.

7570             Unless the industry steps up with some commitments to do it on its own, it is left with the regulator.

7571             And "perhaps" doesn't necessarily help our decision.

7572             MR. SHEPHERD:  Let me go back to my previous comments.  We have had discussions in the past.  We have pursued the opportunity.  We have, in fact, as recently as this year, had more discussions with handset vendors, trying to find a solution.  Those haven't been successful.  We will continue to pursue those.  We will continue to look for opportunities.

7573             I will take your suggestion of, for example, talking to SaskTel, who we happen to be meeting with next week.  I will raise the issue with them to see if that is an opportunity we could work on together.

7574             But we are a relatively small wireless provider, in terms of our handset volume and purchasing power, and I can tell you from discussions on numerous handset issues, not even related to this, that our ability to sway vendors is somewhat limited.

7575             So, unfortunately, I can't make a promise that I can't deliver, but what I can promise you is that we will continue to pursue the opportunities and the discussions, and we will try to find solutions that work.

7576             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Just understand that when you began to speak of discussions with vendors, we are certainly not ‑‑ I wasn't talking about creating new handsets or anything to that extent, but simply procuring and bringing into your product portfolio a product that would work for this community.

7577             MR. SHEPHERD:  Perhaps, Commissioner, I could expand a little bit on that.  I think there is a perception that it is simply a matter of acquiring a handset.

7578             Typically, why manufacturers are having these minimum order volume quantities is that everybody, particularly in the CDMA world ‑‑ I am not as familiar with the alternative technology, but when you go to acquire a new handset, typically the manufacturer creates a custom software load to make it compatible with the network provider.  It is not normally a matter of simply acquiring a handset and acquiring an order volume.

7579             Handset manufacturers are imposing these types of minimum volume requirements because, typically, there is an investment that is required upfront on their part to configure and customize and build the software for the handset.  They want to recover that, obviously, over a volume of handsets.

7580             Then, of course, from a service provider point of view, any handset that is brought in has to be tested and certified on your own network.

7581             So even in the case of perhaps SaskTel and ourselves, which have very similar networks, there typically is a unique software configuration and load that the manufacturer puts in.

7582             Quite frankly, the volumes vary.  Five thousand may seem high, but a typical minimum order volume for a handset is closer to 30,000.

7583             So, even at the 5,000 level, you are already kind of getting to the point where the cost of the individual handset goes up, because of that common overhead cost of configuring and loading it.

7584             There are some practical economic considerations that enter into it.  It isn't just a matter of the handset ‑‑ of vendors having something and wanting us to buy 5,000, there are other cost factors that enter into the decision as to whether you can economically introduce a handset.

7585             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Thanks for that.

7586             Maybe that segues very well into what I wanted to speak of next, that is, handsets that are procured in other jurisdictions.  If you are not providing it in‑house, there are, I believe, some CDMA compatible handsets that meet the requirements of certain consumer groups.

7587             What is your company's position as it regards enabling those on your network and supporting them?

7588             MR. SHEPHERD:  Typically, as I said, a handset ‑‑ CDMA is different from GSM.  Let me start from that point of view.

7589             If you had GSM technology, or GSM stream technology ‑‑ there are several variations ‑‑ typically handsets ‑‑ you will hear the terms "locked", "unlocked", "SIM cards", and there are still some issues, which I could explain, but it is somewhat more practical to take a SIM card from one device, plug it into another device and, essentially, activate it on a different network.

7590             In the case of a CDMA handset, typically that capability doesn't exist.  The software is loaded and configured by the vendor to work with a particular carrier's network, and there is limited capability to take that handset and activate it on another carrier.

7591             It can be done, but generally what happens is, features break and don't work across the different networks, because of configuration.

7592             So, typically, what would have to happen is, the carrier would have to ‑‑ I guess the best way to describe it is reload and reconfigure the handset with an entirely different software configuration.

7593             In most cases they don't do that.  It is almost cheaper to give you a new handset that is configured to work with your network.

7594             Typically, in the past, when networks were simpler, when it was analog, or when it was early digital technology, customers could take a handset that, say, had worked with TELUS, and we would flash it with some simple configuration changes, and they could activate it on our network.

7595             As handsets have become more complex and have a lot more features and software loaded into them, it isn't a matter of simply moving from one carrier to another.

7596             So it is very difficult, I would say, for customers to buy a CDMA handset from Verizon in the U.S. and bring it in, and have us activate it for them, and have it easily work.  It can be done, but it is typically not standard practice to do that.

7597             Generally, we would prefer to try to sell customers a handset that we know is loaded and configured properly to work with our network and can be supported.

7598             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can I ask a question?

7599             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

7600             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Coming from the wireless industry, are you telling us, Mr. Shepherd, that CDMA customers in the United States and Canada cannot roam on the MTS network in Manitoba?

7601             MR. SHEPHERD:  No, I didn't say roaming ‑‑

7602             THE CHAIRPERSON:  It's a phone.  It's a phone coming from the U.S., it's a phone coming from Bell Aliant, it's a phone coming from TELUS, coming into Winnipeg or Brandon, and you are saying that the services and the applications don't work?

7603             MR. SHEPHERD:  Commissioner, what I said was ‑‑

7604             First of all, let me step back and say no.  Generally there are roaming agreements.  It depends on which carrier you are with, but the roaming agreements are in place.

7605             THE CHAIRPERSON:  All that happens in a roaming agreement is that the NPA‑NXX from one carrier is loaded into the switch of the other carrier.

7606             You can find every one of them in North America.

7607             MR. SHEPHERD:  Let me give you an example, though, Commissioner, of what I am talking about in terms of a feature that won't work.  I will give you a specific one.

7608             Take a common service like picture messaging.  The service that we happen to use requires a particular software client to be loaded on the handset.  It's a customized software client.  It works with a particular third party picture messaging service bureau.

7609             If you took that handset, as it was configured, and tried to make it work on, say, the TELUS network, TELUS uses an entirely different service bureau, and an entirely different software client, so you would have to re‑program the handset and reload it with compatible software to get that feature to work.

7610             However, the handset will work in a roaming configuration, because you are really just directing the traffic to the proper service bureau.  But if you try to take that phone and activate it on a different carrier, which has a whole bunch of ‑‑ maybe the same application, but different and unique software configurations loaded on it, clearly, it is not going to work when you try to re‑program that set to be activated on a different carrier.

7611             The basic functionality will work, but many of the enhanced features and services that are provided won't work, and, clearly, no provider wants to be in the position of having a customer with a handset and having the features that they expect will work, or that they may be paying for, not work because of incompatible software.

7612             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I thought it was TELUS that said that they don't have a JitterBug product, but they have an equivalent product, and they are CDMA as well.

7613             So they are bringing this product in from somewhere, or getting it from somewhere.  I doubt if they are buying it in 5,000‑unit lots, either.

7614             That product would work on your network, or would it not work on your network?

7615             MR. SHEPHERD:  I am not familiar with what TELUS is providing.  If the details were provided, I would certainly look at it, and we could tell you the details about what it would take to make it work.

7616             THE CHAIRPERSON:  You may want to take a look at their evidence from Tuesday morning, and perhaps respond in your final submission as to whether it would or would not.

7617             MR. SHEPHERD:  Sure.

7618             THE CHAIRPERSON:  I apologize.

7619             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I tried to deflect him, but it didn't work.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7620             MR. SHEPHERD:  That's all right, he was going to get there anyways.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7621             MR. SHEPHERD:  He's not finished, either, but he'll wait.

7622             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Just before we leave this, you spoke about the economic limitations of bringing in a product that would service the community, and you spoke about the technical limitations of supporting products, if your customers were to go out and acquire them themselves.

7623             Tell me what would be your preferred approach to ensuring that consumers, in your market, are provided access to terminals that meet their needs, acquiring it yourself, or providing service and support to devices they would bring in?

7624             MR. SHEPHERD:  I think it's fair to say that we would prefer the one that gave the best service and the best economics.

7625             Some phones, smartphones, particularly, which we do offer, I know that customers can acquire specialized software and load it themselves, and certainly we support that.

7626             To the point of which one is the best solution, I think that either one is acceptable, but if you had to pick one, I would think that from a customer's ‑‑

7627             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  If you had to pick one, Mr. Shepherd.

7628             MR. SHEPHERD:  If I had to pick one, I would prefer to offer the service, because, quite frankly, it is very difficult in the terminal world for people to acquire what could be a whole different range of handsets and for us to configure and support them.

7629             Typically, when customers buy equipment that we aren't familiar with and expect us to make it work, it is not usually a great experience for them.

7630             My preference, depending on the economics and the other issues, of course, is that we could supply the handset and the service, and have something that we could stand behind.

7631             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I do need to get off this issue, but I want to go back to something you have been saying over and over.  You say, "depending on economics".

7632             As a corporation with a social responsibility, as well as an economic responsibility, this is a group of consumers which, while perhaps not economically ‑‑ you know, not going to top a business plan, still requires service.

7633             When you are looking at issues such as bringing this in, are you balancing those considerations as well?

7634             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes, I would say so.

7635             When I use the term "economics", I am not suggesting that it has to meet the same hurdle rates and margins and profitability that we might expect from a different service, I am simply suggesting that it has to meet some threshold that is affordable.

7636             Certainly, that could include even some view that we provide it at a loss.  You know, we are not even suggesting ‑‑ I am not suggesting that it would necessarily have to break even or be at cost, but, clearly, it's the sum magnitude of that and how much ‑‑

7637             What the reasonable test for that is, it's more a matter of judgment.

7638             Clearly, many of the initiatives that we have taken don't have a payback.  They are taken because we view them, first, as something that is good business practice.  It's an obligation, we think, to try to service the needs of the community and our customers as best we can.  Clearly, there is not a black‑and‑white line on that.

7639             Back to the issue of handsets, it is not that we are applying a test that says, "Gee, this has to be the same payback and return as every other handset in our lineup," it is really more a question of ‑‑ from a cost/benefit point of view, does it meet a reasonable expectation that it is something that would be affordable and be worthwhile to undertake.

7640             Like many of the other initiatives that we take in this area, it is more a question of judgment than a hard number like a return rate.

7641             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I hope it meets your test, whatever that test might be.

7642             I want to go back a little bit to the issue of message relay, but also related to the terminal, and get your perspective as it regards access to emergency services through SMS text messaging.

7643             We have heard some parties come forward and say it is important that they be able to have access to emergency services through SMS, and I believe they are talking through a relay system.  So not direct access to the PSAPs at this point, just being able to access your message relay operators through SMS.

7644             MR. SHEPHERD:  While I haven't followed all of the details, I did hear yesterday's discussion with Rogers, and I think I read a submission on the topic from earlier in the hearings.

7645             There seems to be some lack of clarity around exactly what this service would be, and the expectations around it.

7646             Certainly, I think anything that involves 911 does require some engagement of the PSAP operators.  Whether that is simply so they understand what a message relay operator would be trying to do in terms of relaying an SMS discussion, or whether that is them being able to take those types of messages themselves, there would have to be some consultation from a fairly broad range of stakeholders.

7647             There are, clearly, some serious technical limitations in terms of using SMS.  That is not to say that it might not be a worthwhile service, even with those limitations.

7648             In terms of trying to integrate it into, for example, our own MRS operation, we haven't looked at that.  We would be willing to look at it, but, as I said, I think it would require broader consultation with a range of stakeholders to understand how that would really ‑‑ the service that it would deliver, and, in fact, how PSAPs would respond to those types of discussions.

7649             Clearly, the limitations around SMS ‑‑ the fact that it's a very short service, it is not a real‑time service, it's not guaranteed, and having to have an MRS operator somehow translate that and relay it to a 911 operator, with really no location information to support the 911 operation, I think would be challenging.  I am not saying, though, that it couldn't be worked through, in terms of consultation and process, but it would be a very different service than 911.

7650             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I think that's fair to say, but I was trying to understand, because message relay, as you noted, is now portable.  TTYs are now portable.  So if you could do it on a TTY ‑‑

7651             It's a point of access.  It's a 24/7 point of access for someone who perhaps is unable to speak.

7652             MR. SHEPHERD:  I think there are some substantial differences between MRS ‑‑ first, whether the MRS call is placed from a land line or a wireless telephone.

7653             There is some degree of information available through the ALI/ANI capability.

7654             When you send an SMS message, it has no location information, so you are relying totally on the person on the other end to be able to describe that.

7655             It also isn't real‑time, so it's not easily interactive, if you know what I mean.  It's not like the same degree of interaction.

7656             I agree with what you are saying, it is an extension ‑‑ a potential extension.  I understand some of the suggestion that there may be value, as long as the expectation around the capability is matched properly with what people would be seeking.

7657             It is not something we have looked at, but it certainly is an interesting idea.

7658             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Thank you for that.

7659             I want to move on to issues related to customer service and support.  You used deferral money to enhance your website.

7660             Is that correct?

7661             MR. SHEPHERD:  We haven't enhanced it yet.  We are in the process of enhancing it, and I am sure you will have more questions as we go forward, and we can talk in more detail about where we are at.

7662             I think, today, we have received ‑‑ I guess what I would call an evaluation of design proposal, which we plan to implement over the next nine months or a year.  We will implement those enhancements, and it will be done using the ‑‑ I think $400,000 to $500,000 of deferral account funding.

7663             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So does that $400,000 to $500,000 provide you full W3C compliance?

7664             MR. SHEPHERD:  Well, I am going to take a crack at this and then Pat can hopefully bail me out here when I get in over my head.

7665             First of all, I have to admit I am not an expert on exactly what constitutes full compliance.  I have asked the question, what does full compliance mean, and what I have been told is that these are guidelines.  It is not ‑‑ and the best way they described it to me was to think of it as a grade A, grade AA, grade AAA.

7666             So you can have variations of compliance and I would say that our plan is not AAA.  It would be grade A.  It would be a good step.  I would describe it as a good initial step but I wouldn't pretend to say that there wouldn't be further work that could be done on it to improve it even more.

7667             Some of the ‑‑ maybe the best way to try to describe that is to describe some of the limitations or constraints around the improvements we are making.

7668             So first, it primarily is in our consumer area.  It wouldn't necessarily address all the website products and services but it would address the ones that we think have the most use and application to the broadest customer base initially.  Obviously, we are looking to achieve the maximum benefit for customers from that point of view.

7669             It also wouldn't fully address every element of the website, and by that, what we have done is we have looked at the traffic on the website and we are going to upgrade the highest volume, highest impact, most used, most viewed, if you want to call it, parts of the website that consumers access.

7670             There are some parts of our site, and I would describe our site ‑‑ if you have had a chance to look at it, it is not as sophisticated perhaps as some other providers' sites, primarily in that it is an informational site.  Most of the use of it is to present information.  It does have some self‑serve functionality ability for customers to manage their services through the website but that is quite limited.

7671             So to the extent that some of those self‑serve functions are more complex, I believe that some of those features may be difficult in this first stage, in the amount of funding we have identified, to fully make accessible or as compliant as we would like.

7672             So those are, you know, a way to describe it.  I think the step we are taking is a good step but I would describe it as a first step.  I certainly wouldn't describe it as everything a hundred percent on the site meeting the highest level of expectation that the standard or the W3C guidelines set out.

7673             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Do you have any information or customer services ‑‑ you mentioned the self‑serve abilities ‑‑ where the only way to either access the service or the information is via the website?

7674             MR. SHEPHERD:  No.  We do have other alternative channels.

7675             Certainly, we have phone.  You can access information through the phone.  We also have a retail store channel, which in some areas probably has more complete information than the website because you can actually touch and feel the products and talk to a retail representative.

7676             So I would ‑‑

7677             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So there is nothing that is only accessible via your website?

7678             MR. SHEPHERD:  No, I don't believe so.  I think anything that is on our website, we have alternative channels.  And even the self‑serve functionality, for example, the ability to go on and perhaps change your channel line‑up on your TV service can be done via phone, for example.

7679             I think the only thing, if I think about it in a little more detail, that might only be accessible, there are things that, by definition, have to be done on the web.  Like an ebill, for example, if you want to get your bill electronically, clearly, that is not going to be done by phone or through the store.

7680             But anything else in terms of product information, ordering, technical support or care is basically available through other channels.

7681             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay, thank you.

7682             I would like to talk a little bit about alternative formats.

7683             Today there is, of course, the requirement to provide bills and certain specific information in alternative formats upon request.

7684             What would be the challenge if you were to have to provide all promotional material in alternative formats?

7685             MR. SHEPHERD:  Well, I think the challenge would be primarily one of the cost associated with trying to take every piece of promotional material and put it in that format.  So there is a conversion cost to do it and I think it is principally that.

7686             To the extent that it is available or already in that format, it is less of a challenge but most of the promotional material ‑‑ and this is everything from advertising to other types of product information ‑‑ you know, isn't readily available in those alternative formats.

7687             So you know, we would have to ‑‑ certainly, it would be, I think, a significant cost to try to convert all of that material and to maintain it and to make it available in those formats.

7688             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.

7689             And you know, I am sorry I didn't put this into context for you but, for example, we had Mr. Stark here and they gave a story about receiving a Christmas gift from their wireless provider but when they went to open it, it was blank because it was in a format they couldn't see.  And, you know, their comment is it was a gift, it was a promotion for the sighted.

7690             And so, you know, as promotions and different offers are made available to your consumers, the question is how difficult would it be to ensure that that information is always available in alternate formats so, in fact, it is available to all consumers?

7691             MR. SHEPHERD:  I think it would be quite difficult.  I think it would be quite difficult in terms of the volume of material that is produced and the cost to do that alternative format.

7692             But I don't have any hard data at my hands that would allow me to give you a cost estimate.  But my initial reaction would be it would be ‑‑ that would be the challenge.

7693             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Can you tell me if you provide accessible information on your mobile and wireless devices such as the user guides and so on in any alternative formats?

7694             MR. SHEPHERD:  I don't believe we do.

7695             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I am going to move on to the issue of customer support.

7696             Could you tell me what training is provided to MTS, your customer service representatives, to ensure that they fully understand the products and services and information that is available to persons with disabilities?

7697             MS SOLMAN:  Well, what we have in the call centre is we actually have a special needs customer care expert and she only deals with special needs customers, and published in the White Pages and on our website is her phone number.

7698             And so when reps ‑‑ when we get calls into the call centre, the average rep doesn't deal with those calls.  They are not trained on the actual specific equipment but the calls then are routed to the special needs rep who, in fact, manages those calls and knows those products.

7699             And she doesn't deal with regular customers.  She just deals with the ones that have the special needs and that is her specialty.

7700             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So is this customers who self‑identify?

7701             MS SOLMAN:  They would be customers who would self‑identify, yes.  So if they called in and said, you know, I want some information on some of the TTY equipment or how it works or what products do you have available, they then would be directed to ‑‑ well, her name is Lola ‑‑ to our special needs representative.

7702             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Do you know how many customers you have in MTS who have self‑identified with disabilities?

7703             MS SOLMAN:  Well, she handles roughly 15 to 20 calls a day on inquiries, okay, but I don't know that number in the market as a whole.

7704             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Just following up on that, what is the process?  I expect MTS has an IVR.

7705             MS SOLMAN:  Yes.

7706             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  what is the process for a customer to access Lola?

7707             MS SOLMAN:  Well, she does have a direct line which is, in fact, published, as I said, in the phone book but they would have to navigate, and we all know IVRs aren't easy for special needs people, let alone the average individual.  They provide challenges, and the customer would just have to navigate the IVR like any other customer.

7708             Now, obviously there is that press zero and speak to an operator and then the operator would guide the call accordingly.  So they technically don't have to navigate, they could just press the zero, but they still have to self‑identify.

7709             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Fair enough.

7710             If you are a person with a disability, be it agility or otherwise, you just keep pressing zero and you are going to get a live person?

7711             MS SOLMAN:  Zero will get you to a live person, yes.

7712             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Just once?

7713             MS SOLMAN:  Just once.

7714             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay, thanks.

7715             I am going to move to the issues of broadcasting now.

7716             We heard earlier this week from Mr. Eadie that he is very, very pleased with the broadcasting of described video that is done by MTS.  So I hadn't been aware up to that point in reading your information that, in fact, you were passing it through already.

7717             But you are passing through the described video today?

7718             MR. SHEPHERD:  We are.  I believe we still may have a small number of channels that we are working to enable described video on and we expect to have that work done as part of a major upgrade to the equipment we were doing this fall.

7719             But we have been providing the majority of channels with described video and the few that we have had some technical issues on, we have been addressing and I think certainly by the end of the year we expect that that work will be completed.

7720             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Great!  And it is embedded?

7721             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes.

7722             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.

7723             We have heard about the six‑step process to actually access the described video feed.

7724             What is the process with your service?

7725             MR. SHEPHERD:  It is quite similar.  I have to admit I haven't tried this myself but ‑‑

7726             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  You don't actually have to explain the process ‑‑

7727             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes, but it is ‑‑

7728             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  ‑‑ but you could tell us if it is five, six or seven steps to get there.

7729             MR. SHEPHERD:  Well, that is what I was looking for.  I thought, gee, maybe ours is only five but I think it may be six.

7730             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Six.

7731             MR. SHEPHERD:  But it is a very similar process.  You do have to take a number of actions, both on the TV and on the set‑top, essentially, to enable the service.

7732             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Mm‑hmm.

7733             We have been asking as to what, if anything, your company is doing to try and make that easier for customers.

7734             Yesterday, Rogers was here and they showed us a remote that makes it a push of the button to get there.

7735             Do you have any plans in place?  Are you working with your vendors' middleware or set‑top box or otherwise to work through this issue to make it simpler for your customers?

7736             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes, I heard the discussion on the remote with some interest.  I don't believe we have any initiative today like that.  It certainly sounded like an interesting thing to explore.

7737             Generally, what we have done is tried to address it through support to the customer.  I mean that support could be support by phone consultation.  I believe in some cases we will send a technician to the home to help train, guide people.

7738             But I don't believe we have an initiative similar to what Rogers has described to try to kind of automate it through a remote control.

7739             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.  Let me ‑‑ yes.  It is a bit troubling.  I mean Mr. Eadie, who likes your service, watches it in a separate room because once you get it programmed, it is difficult.  And you probably are not sending your CST out there every time he wants to change the channel.

7740             So there's a couple of options we have explored with people.  I mean one is coming up with a simpler solution.  I don't remember exactly what your existing service remote is but I am thinking there is probably a VOD button.

7741             MR. SHEPHERD:  There is a VOD button.

7742             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So could there be a described video button?

7743             MR. SHEPHERD:  As I said, I heard with some interest ‑‑ I haven't had a discussion with the technical people.  I heard with some interest the discussion from Rogers yesterday.  I don't know exactly what they have done but ‑‑ and I haven't talked to our technical people to see if something similar would be done.

7744             My impression is that it is kind of like a programmable remote control where these steps can be programmed in as a macro.

7745             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.

7746             MR. SHEPHERD:  Off the top of my head, it sounded like it might be an interesting solution.  So I will take that back ‑‑

7747             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.

7748             MR. SHEPHERD:  ‑‑ and talk to people about it but I can't say that we have looked at it and I know if it is possible or not.

7749             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  So let me throw at you an alternative, and this is something that SaskTel discussed and made some commitment to.

7750             If there is not an easier way to access the described video than a six‑step process, if there is not a simple one‑step process, what are your thoughts on providing at least the over‑the‑air channels on an open format or at least providing them on an open format until such time as there is a one‑step process to access?

7751             MR. SHEPHERD:  Just for clarification, by open format, it would be like a parallel separate channel ‑‑

7752             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Separate channel.

7753             MR. SHEPHERD:  ‑‑ that was fully enabled that way?

7754             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Right.

7755             MR. SHEPHERD:  I guess my thoughts are I am not sure that we have explored that.

7756             I think we do have ‑‑ my initial reaction would be we have channel limitations, I know, in our current service in terms of the numbers of discrete channels that we can carry.  So I know there would be some technical capacity limitations around that.

7757             So I would have to look at the specifics of how many channels and what would be involved but I know there would be some limitations and particularly in our existing service because even when we go to add new channels, there are some issues we have with the current system around how many of those we can continue to grow, how big the line‑up can become.

7758             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Is that right?

7759             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes.

7760             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  I just want to be clear, and I am not going to go on forever, but I do want to be clear.

7761             Do you have capacity issues or do you have cost issues?  Because I am a bit confused that there would be capacity issues with your system in running these on a separate source.

7762             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes.  No, there are actually capacity issues due to ‑‑ I hate to even use the word "capacity issues" but let's just say there is a limited amount of channel capacity that we can carry and it is due to the particular design of the technology we have used.

7763             And I guess the best way to describe it, Commissioner, is if you think about the way our system works is you carry say 200 or 250 or 300 channels kind of in a big loop around the city on a fibre optic kind of backbone and then you have to connect those into nodes.  And the switching of the video out to individual customers happens at the nodes.

7764             The interconnection into those nodes has got a limited amount of bandwidth, and so, you know, between your linear channels and video‑on‑demand and pay‑per‑view, and all of that traffic basically goes through a certain number of ports on the equipment and that does limit the total number of channels that can be carried into a node.

7765             It is partly because it is an ATM technology in that part of the backbone.

7766             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

7767             MR. SHEPHERD:  It is different.

7768             We are implementing a next generation IPTV service that we expect to roll out beginning in 2009.  I expect it wouldn't have those same limitations but the current technology does have some specific limitations that are different than, say, SaskTel's network, significantly different.

7769             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Just a real quick answer.

7770             Your capacity limitation, do you have a number?  Like how many ‑‑ what is the number of channels?  What is the limit?  And if it isn't a number, just tell me that.

7771             MR. SHEPHERD:  It isn't a number.

7772             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  It is not a number?

7773             MR. SHEPHERD:  It isn't a number.  It is basically a calculation because you really have to ‑‑

7774             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  That is okay then, thanks.

7775             MR. SHEPHERD:  You have to determine the number of simultaneous video‑on‑demand streams to figure out ‑‑ there is a trade‑off there between how much video‑on‑demand and how much linear capacity you use.

7776             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  But the number of channels you carry today would be in the range of 200?

7777             MR. SHEPHERD:  I think it is probably 250 if you look at audio and other channels, yes.

7778             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Okay.

7779             Can we talk just for a minute about your electronic programming guide.

7780             There have been some discussions around the feasibility of providing an audio programming guide or audio cues on your programming guide.  Is that something that has been examined?

7781             MR. SHEPHERD:  On our current technology, I can ‑‑ I am going to split it into two discussions.

7782             Our current technology, which was, you know, first deployed in 2003 and it is currently what we are offering on the market, the interactive program guide is an integrated piece of software that is supplied by the technology vendor.

7783             That particular program guide has been ‑‑ is not being further enhanced or developed by the vendor, and so we have had extensive discussions around a number of things we would like to do with the program guide that really just aren't feasible because the vendor has essentially capped development of that particular guide.

7784             We are in the process of deploying a next generation TV service that is based upon the Microsoft Mediaroom platform, and certainly, with that product I would expect there's more opportunities down the road and we would expect to see more developments in the program guide.

7785             I don't know what Microsoft's plans are around these types of questions around audio prompts or other changes that might be incorporated into the guide.  From what I have seen in their development road map, I haven't seen that on their development road map.

7786             So I think going forward, given that they are building that product for very large companies such as AT&T in the U.S. and 40 or 50 companies around the world, there could be opportunities certainly to talk to them about those types of things but it is not on their current road map in the next year or two that I have seen.

7787             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.

7788             And on the basis that it's Microsoft, I'm assuming that MTS is not laying out requirements.

7789             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes, they are not too receptive to that.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7790             MR. SHEPHERD:  We are taking their product and putting some I guess what I would call configuration around it, which basically lets us put our name and a different colour scheme and a few elements like that, but certainly not a sophisticated type of capability like has been discussed on audio guide.

7791             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Yes.

7792             I want to move just very quickly to the issue of closed captioning.

7793             The CAB has spoke as it regards quality of closed captioning and, in ensuring quality is there and monitoring quality and so on, that there's a role there for BDUs to play, as well.

7794             Do you have any comments on that?

7795             MR. SHEPHERD:  I'm not familiar with exactly the comments they have made.  I would have to look at them and...unless, Teresa, you have some review of them.

7796             I would have to take that away and review it and provide you some comments back, Commissioner.

7797             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay.  Yes, you can do that.

7798             Finally, I want to talk to you about consultations.  There has been a lot of discussion at this hearing from the groups representing the disabilities that a really important and lacking element today is consultation, ongoing consultation with the stakeholder groups, so I would like you views on a couple of things.

7799             One is a specific proposal that was put forward by the Canadian Institute for the Blind that there be an institute established with members of the CRTC, industry and the stakeholders, funding not yet determined.  So I would like your views as it regards what benefits you think might come from such an institute and how you would view such an institute could be funded.

7800             MR. SHEPHERD:  Well, I will make some general comments.  I think we commented on this a little bit in our submission.

7801             I believe we could see a potential role for such an organization.  It may not address every issue, but I would say that there could be some opportunity for it to play a role and for it to be useful in certain situations.

7802             Funding?  I'm not sure that we have put a position forward on funding.

7803             I don't know, Teresa, if you have any comment on how we would see that.

7804             I think what we have suggested is that these types of ongoing initiatives that need to be sustained probably need a sustainable and supported source of funding.  It shouldn't be a one‑time kind of fund that is established to try to undertake those types of initiatives.

7805             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  I guess, too, though, we would feel not dissimilar to Rogers in kind of having the consultation process, whatever that may be, have specific goals.

7806             Even coming out of consultations for the deferral account use, not every group has ‑‑ well, "the" issues are quite individual in a certain way.  So there is certain value in implementation, for example, post some sort of understanding of what is the best approach, what would have the broadest positive impact for people with accessibility issues.

7807             So part of that would involve some sort of understanding, either through a process like this, but even through this process we can see there's a number of different alternative proposals, and then have consultation as to how to implement, the best way to implement.

7808             So, for us, we looked at it much more like CISC, so we would already have a direction, and whatever that direction was, as an example, video relay service or IP, how the industry would actually put it in place where it would serve the needs of the community that we are trying assist with this service and where the practical aspects of it, from an implementation perspective, for the carriers could be accommodated so that you make sure we are not putting something in place, as carriers, that wouldn't really be helpful to the people we are trying to serve, but that there is some balance between the two.

7809             Broad consultation is a little more difficult.  Just it's been our experience that there are really diverse needs and there's not even agreement amongst all the groups representing individuals with those needs as to what the ideal solution is.  So there would have to be some sort of structure around that.

7810             Then, I guess, the funding mechanism would work not dissimilarly to how we fund a lot of participation today, which is the industry funding, but we would say what Kelvin is saying, it really does have to be put together.  If this is something that's ongoing, the mechanism for funding it also has to be ongoing.

7811             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  By industry.

7812             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Depending on how it's structured.

7813             COMMISSIONER MOLNAR:  Okay, thank you very much.  Those were my questions.

7814             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Molnar.

7815             I have got a few questions and I'm sure some of the other members of the panel have them, as well.  I want to take you back to your opening comments this morning, and I will put a context around it.

7816             We have heard from a number of participants this week that the only way for social improvements to happen is through Commission decision, as opposed to voluntarily, I guess.  I look at your paragraph 2, in your opening statement, and the last sentence, and I will ready it out:

"Some issues faced by these customers..."

7817             ‑‑ and we are talking about customers with some difficulties ‑‑

"...have been alleviated by initiatives, such as introduction of Manitoba relay service, closed captioning and described video services, that were undertaken as a consequence of previous Commission decisions."  (As read)

7818             Do you recall any social initiatives that MTS has undertaken under its own initiative?

7819             MR. SHEPHERD:  Oh, absolutely.  But I guess "social initiatives" has got a very broad context to it.

7820             I mean, corporately, if I go back in our history, we have extended service in a number of areas which potentially was done for broader policy or obligations than simply a profit motive.

7821             In our current environment, we have significant amount of employee and corporate involvement in communities, whether that's volunteer activities, contribution activities, other things.

7822             From a service point of view, you know, I think many of our service policies are intended to try to accommodate customers' needs to the extent possible.  They aren't laid down in regulation or decision that's a requirement, but, clearly, we do try to do that.

7823             So I wouldn't agree with the view that no progress can be made without regulation.  I think just the fact that these hearings are raising issues, and certainly some of the discussion I have heard over the last day or two generates new knowledge and new opportunities that, you know, people can take back and may result, and probably could result, in improvements.

7824             There are areas where, such as VRS, for example, I don't think that is going to be undertaken, personally, by an individual company like MTS on a voluntary basis because of the nature of the service and the requirement of such a broad consensus on how to do it.  And there probably is a role, through some kind of process, to assist the stakeholders in reaching a conclusion on that, but there's many other areas that...

7825             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Clearly, national programs need some national oversight ‑‑

7826             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes.

7827             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ‑‑ I don't dispute that at all, but I guess I was trying to narrow it down to the issues that, I guess, were brought before us this week.

7828             The people that are here before us are people with disabilities. I'm just trying to look out to all the parties and sort of say:  they are telling us that without our involvement these types of initiatives don't happen, even the smallest things, like bringing in phones to meet their particular needs.

7829             This proceeding is one example that actually highlights the fact that there needs to be a funnel for information, at a minimum, because a lot of stuff it out there, it's just not being disseminated or put in the place where it's readily available and marketable to these people.

7830             And I think I mentioned earlier this week ‑‑ and you are in marketing, as well ‑‑ I mean, a huge success is find a need in fill it and if you don't market, you are not going to sell it; if you don't sell it, you are not going to bring it in; if you don't bring it in, no one knows it exists or doesn't exist and, therefore, you are back to square one again.

7831             And a lot of the parties here, not just MTS ‑‑ and I commend you for coming in with some initiatives, as well, but in the absence of this proceeding, it begs the question:  would an awful lot of these parties that are coming before us have initiated these things on their own or does it take some sort of body, some sort of oversight, in order to focus attention to these types of initiatives?

7832             MR. SHEPHERD:  I can't speak for all the other parties.  I would say certainly proceedings such as this are useful.  I think, like, I would hope, most companies, though, we do listen to our customers, we do review complaints, we do review feedback and we try to find ways to address that.

7833             To the extent we could be more successful in that, there's room for improvement, I would agree, because I would be the first to suggest that we aren't satisfying every customers' requirement in these particular areas.

7834             But does that require regulation to make progress?  No.  I think there's a role for regulation; there's a role for the Commission.  But as a service provider, we have undertaken initiatives and will continue to do that on a voluntary basis, working with the community and with the customers that we are trying to serve.

7835             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

7836             I may have misheard your response to the question about charging for MRS services.  Does MTS charge the wireless customers for MTS wireless services?

7837             MR. SHEPHERD:  I don't believe we have a specific line item that appears on a wireless customer's bill.  That's different than for a wireline customer, where there is a specific line item that includes the MRS charge.

7838             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  Not to beat a dead horse, but...

7839             MR. SHEPHERD:  Maybe it's not dead.

‑‑‑ Laughter / Rires

7840             THE CHAIRPERSON:  ...are there no ‑‑ first of all, let me go back one step.

7841             I respect the fact that minimum orders sometimes are difficult to achieve ‑‑ and I have been on the other side, I have been on your side, as well ‑‑ but are there no carriers in North America anywhere that have software loads that are compatible to your software load ‑‑ I won't say the same software load because I understand they are not, but compatible to your software load ‑‑ where a product that's marketed in, I don't, San Antonio, Texas, on a CDMA network cannot readily work on your network?

7842             I mean, I'm sure you guys get together every six months and talk about network developments and topography and new loads coming out and new software, where you can sort of say, Hey, you guys sell one of these products, because we have heard they are being marketed in the U.S.

7843             And I will add to the question.  You are subsidizing handsets today.  I mean, no one's asking you to buy 5,000 at a huge price and give them away, but certainly you can get them from an affiliated company in the U.S. at some price.  And maybe you might have to subsidize it to some extent, but packaging it in and making it available to people who have a need and there's a market there would make some sense.

7844             MR. SHEPHERD:  Well, I don't want to get into a detailed discussion of the issues associated with handset procurement, which have been occupying a fair amount of my time over the last year.

7845             Historically, Commissioner, we acquired handsets through an arrangement with Bell and, you know, so to some extent we were ‑‑ even in that arrangement there was a unique software load, you know, that was customized from the Bell handset, but we worked jointly with them.

7846             Now, we have had a slight parting of the ways with Bell, and so over the last number of months it's become even more clear to me how difficult it is to work with some of these handset vendors.  So most of them do not allow you to take handsets from the U.S., they have to be sourced through a Canadian distributor.  They have pretty strick minimum volume requirements.  And, you know, when you look at some of the CDMA players in the U.S., we have had discussions, it's proven very difficult to find ways to get economies of scale.

7847             But I understand the view that there are devices out there.  It's really a question of trying to find the right way to source them and to make them compatible and make them work.  It's not a technical impossibility, it's really more a question of the commercial arrangements, and the costs associated with it.

7848             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  This is probably a legal question, and maybe you can't answer it today, but you can in the future.

7849             You said you have some contractual obligations that would not allow you the flexibility, that perhaps one of the suggestions I have made could happen.

7850             Can you elaborate, now or in the future, as to whether a CRTC direction to you to, I won't say break a contractual term, but a direction to you to execute, where there is not a part readily available in Canada, notwithstanding something that's written in a contract, would allow you to source directly for this particular purpose?

7851             MR. SHEPHERD:  Let me clarify the comment, because perhaps I haven't been clear in describing it.

7852             It isn't a contractual obligation that we have entered into.  I will give you an example without getting into the names of the parties involved.

7853             For example, we had quite extensive discussions with a U.S.‑based provider, a distributor.  Basically, their business is to acquire large numbers of handsets, a volume purchase from a vendor, from a handset supplier, configure them for individual carriers who are smaller, and then redistribute them.  That, you know, means you can take a 30,000 volume requirement and 15 smaller carriers who will want 1,000 each, for example, can then acquire smaller unit quantities.

7854             We had quite extensive discussions and were quite optimistic.  At the end, the handset vendors have incorporated restrictions that do not allow those distributors to redistribute those handsets into Canada.  So it's not our contract, it's the contract that the supply chain, the vendors, have entered into with their various distributors that really do restrict redistribution.

7855             Now, that's not every vendor.  We have managed to find some handsets and some vendors that will allow redistribution and allow you to participate in a large volume buy, for example, where a larger number of U.S. carriers can then buy smaller quantities.  But there is some difficult commercial arrangements there that handset manufacturers are using to manage their own distribution channel, and I presume they have their own commercial reasons to do that.

7856             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes.

7857             My last question.  In CRTC 10th June 08‑103 ‑‑ and you talked a bit about this with Commissioner Molnar ‑‑ on page 103, you talk about some limitations on your software, and I think I heard you say that ‑‑ for digital video we are talking about now, I apologize, and you indicated that you expect some changes to happen in the fourth quarter.  And in your response here you said:

"...by the end of 2008 to resolve these capacity and technical issues, making described video more consistently available."  (As read)

7858             Is that still on track and on schedule?

7859             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes, I believe it is.

7860             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

7861             The only other question I have, and it was, again, in regard to Commissioner Molnar's comment about the number of channels that you have and the fact that you may or may not have capacity constraints.

7862             Can you tell us how many of your channels are VOD channels?

7863             MR. SHEPHERD:  I'm going to just rephrase the question back to make sure I understand it, Commissioner.

7864             So if you look at our TV service, we would have linear channels, 200, 250 linear channels.  And then video‑on‑demand channels, if you want to call it that, or dynamic.  If you have a thousand customers accessing video at the same time, then you have a thousand channels, but you are asking ‑‑

7865             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let me correct myself, video‑on‑demand and pay‑per‑view channels.

7866             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes.  Well, pay per view is basically the equivalent of a linear channel.  In other words, if you have four pay‑per‑view channels or two pay‑per‑view channels, essentially, they are occupying two channels that would be equivalent to a linear channel.

7867             Video on demand is different, in that, basically, because of the nature of video on demand, when a customer accesses a video‑on‑demand service, they have their own dedicated video channel through the network back to the video‑on‑demand server, because they can pause, they can stop it, they can control it individually.  So it's really more of a traffic engineering example.

7868             And I can follow up with more specific information, but, for example, if you have a total channel capacity of, say, 400 channels, and you allocate 250 to linear, that leaves 150 that can be accessed simultaneously by 150 users.  So it becomes a statistical traffic engineering...how many customers, what the penetration usage of video on demand is.  And that then gets limited.  You know, you have to decide how many of those channels you are going to set aside to handle that traffic.

7869             THE CHAIRPERSON:  If you had to set aside a certain number for described video in an open format, you would have that many fewer for your pay‑per‑video VOD customers?

7870             MR. SHEPHERD:  That's right, you would have that many fewer for linear or video on demand.  It would constrain the service level that you would be able to provide to those video‑on‑demand customers.

7871             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right.

7872             MR. SHEPHERD:  So, as I was saying, it's really more of a traffic engineering calculation.

7873             And it changes over time.  Because we fully expect, as we deploy our next‑generation service, that there will be some migration from the existing platform, and then that probably will, ultimately, free up some capacity in that older technology.  As, you know, you have a smaller subscriber base, you have fewer potential video‑on‑demand subscribers.  It probably acts to free up capacity as your subscriber base migrates to newer technology.

7874             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.

7875             I see it's 10:35.  I am sure that everybody...there are questions along here.

7876             So why don't we take a break until 10:45, and we will resume with other commissioners' questions.

7877             Thank you.

‑‑‑ Upon recessing at 1035 / Suspension à 1035

‑‑‑ Upon resuming at 1050 / Reprise à 1050

7878             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please.  We will continue with Commissioner Simpson.

7879             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Thank you very much.

7880             I would like to go first into talking about the equipment side of things.

7881             One of the things I have been coming to understand very clearly is that there is a new Golden Mile link problem in the telephony business with respect to the devices and the lack of standards with devices and the complications of, as you say, how you acquire your gear and also the matter of really not understanding or having a handle on whether there is a business case to look into this further.

7882             You know, we all understand that the bottom line has to be attained.

7883             What I would like to go back to again is if you are in a transition right now out of a supply line arrangement with Bell with respect to technology, what stage are you at with respect to how you are going to be sourcing your telephony equipment in the future?

7884             MR. SHEPHERD:  The transition discussions or transition I talked about with Bell is particular to wireless handsets.  I believe today we have over half of our handsets that are sourced separately, and we are slowly phasing out or drawing down the arrangement we had with Bell as stocks deplete and those sorts of arrangements.

7885             So generally what we have had to do is go directly to manufacturers and enter into our own commercial arrangements.  The biggest impact of that in terms of from a business impact is of course scale.  We are a smaller buyer and so it is more difficult for us to strike the types of arrangements.

7886             They range all the way from ‑‑ you know, probably the most famous one is, you know, it is a technology issue to some extent, but the iPhone.  Even if we had compatible technology with the iPhone, I can tell you we would never be able to do a deal with them because of the minimums and the exclusivity arrangements and the other types of things.

7887             Many handsets we can't acquire early on in their life cycle because really they are looking at very large players who make big, exclusive commitments.

7888             But having said that, we have relationships with a number of key handset vendors and we are, you know, procuring handsets from those different vendors under different arrangements than we did previously.

7889             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Thank you for that.

7890             When Mr. Stark and his family were here earlier in the week he, in only a way that Mr. Stark as a person with sight disabilities could do, attempted to look us straight in the eye and he said I hope the CRTC hits a home run with this hearing.

7891             I have to be honest with you, I feel like I am playing T‑ball this week because we are hearing consistently that there is an economy of scale issue.  For the most part, there has not been a lack of willingness but a lack of way.

7892             I am coming to the point where beyond the big decision, determinations that we can make that may or may not involve regulatory determinations, I am at the point now where I am so frustrated that I am trying to find any kind of small takeaways that can help me feel better about what I am hearing, to be honest with you.

7893             Yesterday I challenged Rogers to take it upon themselves in the course of their commitment to their website rebuild ‑‑ they have a fairly compliant website right now to the new W3C standards, but they are trying to get into a position where their reach will exceed their grasp and go into even more features that service the disability communities.

7894             I asked them if in the course of doing their business if it is even possible to try to work with competitors, suppliers, industry, government to try and work toward at least a repository of current information on what is available in this world for the community to at least be a better starting point.

7895             You know, I would ask the same of you.

7896             But I am going to ask it with a few pluses, if you don't mind.

7897             My sensation is not unlike our discussions with SaskTel earlier this week.  There was a certain resignation to size issues.  You know, we are just not capable, and I understand that.

7898             But I would also put to you, though, that as small as you may be in your world of telephony, you are still a heck of a lot larger than any representative disability group, and they look to you.  Particularly when you have the leadership role that you do in your territory as a supplier, they look to you.

7899             I ask you to try and sort of sharpen your senses a bit with respect to the relationship that your customer has with you, because what is interesting is as you start having your abilities limited, other senses that you are left with become heightened.

7900             I think that the issue of the relationship you have as a person with disabilities to your telephone supplier, your cable company is very tactile.  You know, it is literally what you are holding in your hand.  Whether it is a remote controller that has a single button feature or a telephone that has, you know, assistive devices that have been designed to try and mitigate some of the problems you are dealing with, it is that real.

7901             It is a hard thing to take that into a business plan, to take that into a compelling case.

7902             I think, to go back to my first point of adding a few pluses, if you are in the midst of new negotiations with suppliers, put the disability issues on the radar.  Put a spec list together and ask those questions in addition to all the network compliance issues and the roaming abilities, and so on.

7903             It is a small thing to ask.  It's a cheap fix because it involves just moving ‑‑ it is an attitude shift rather than something that has a high mechanical cost.

7904             The next thing I was going to ‑‑ and thank you for that.  I saw you nodding so I'm taking that as a yes.

7905             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes, I think it is a good point.

7906             I mean obviously the process of design and procurement has evolved.  I started out as an engineer writing these specs in 1981, and I can guarantee you the spec I wrote in 1981 probably would be different, quite a bit different than the spec today.

7907             So I think your suggestion that we put these issues up and understand, you know, compliancy with them as we would understand any other kind of technical compliancy or business compliancy is a reasonable request.

7908             COMMISSIONER SIMPSON:  Great.  I'm glad we agree on that.

7909             I'm going to give you some more information as to why I think this is something that you are going to want to do rather than have to do, because legislation is wonderful, but it is nicer to know why you are doing something rather than just knowing you have to.

7910             We have been looking at some data in preparation for this hearing, and I'm going to be a little bit all over the map but I will try to be as succinct as possible, which a lot of my fellow Commissioners know is usually a stretch.

7911             We have come to understand just within the hearing disabled community through organizations in the United States who seem to be in possession of some hard data, the American Speech and Hearing Association ‑‑ that is not the exact name of the Association but I can draw you to their information later.

7912             They are saying somewhere around eight to 9 per cent of Americans are suffering some form of hearing disability, and that represents an order of magnitude of a population base of somewhere around 28 million Americans.  There are 301 million right now, according to the 2007 senses.

7913             That is a pretty good whack of customers.  To further sort of parse it down, about 5 per cent have profound hearing loss, so just do the math on that.

7914             Let's swing those numbers over to Manitoba know.  Manitoba is sitting with about 1.2 million, I think, 2007 senses data.  And we have been told by our learned staff, who we have come to love because they always give us the kind of stuff that makes us sound smart.  Right now the estimate is that about 14 per cent of the population in Canada have some form of disability.  That is on the widest possible definition of the term.

7915             If you were to transpose that number to Manitoba population, you are looking at about 168,000 people with some form of disability.

7916             If you wanted to get into the hearing loss customers, which might be of greater interest to a telephone company, you are looking at about 96,000 people by my math.  That's a heck of a lot of cell phones or a heck of a lot of devices.

7917             I'm just saying that that is within the widest range of hearing loss, not those who are severely disabled.

7918             If that isn't enough to try to build a business case around, the other piece of information the staff has been giving us is the part that I don't like to hear, which is that us boomers are falling apart and by the time we are 65 about 43 per cent of us are going to have some form of disability.

7919             That is 516,000 people in Manitoba who are going to be having trouble with their remote controls on their TV and they are having trouble with reading the numbers on their BlackBerrys and are going to be looking for devices to prolong their ‑‑ what I like to call our relevance.

7920             The closing part of this is that the term disability is an extremely wide category, and I think that is one of the reasons why, as you said in your presentation, it has been so darn difficult to really nail it down because that is not job one within your organization.  But from what I am seeing in these figures, it should start to be at least job two or three because those numbers are growing and the range of disability issues are going to become more prevalent.

7921             As I asked our friends at SaskTel, if you are that small and you are that handicapped in your own way by the issues of balance sheet, find ways, find sourcing ways.

7922             Supply chain management is something we all learned in school, and I think that that request of putting the issue of disability on your radar with respect to handset acquisition is something that is going to become a more compelling argument as we go down the road.

7923             Thank you.

7924             MR. SHEPHERD:  Thank you.

7925             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Simpson.

7926             Commissioner Lamarre...?

7927             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Merci, Monsieur le Président.

7928             I'm going to start asking you a question that has already been asked twice but, I apologize, I still don't understand what the answer is.

7929             Talking about descriptive video, you have mentioned that you still have some channels which there is a technical issue.  In an answer to Commissioner Molnar, you said it should be fixed by the end of the year.  In answering Commissioner Katz, you said you believe it is going to be fixed by the end of the year.

7930             Could I have a firm date, please?

7931             MR. SHEPHERD:  It is scheduled and currently on track to be finished by the end of the year.

7932             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Thank you.

7933             Moving to a totally ‑‑ well, not totally, it's still a little bit related topic.

7934             In your submission of July 10th, which was in response to interrogs by the Commission, on page 3 you had a table listing the list of complaints.

7935             First of all, thank you for providing it in that format.  As far as I am concerned, it was quite comprehensive set up this way.

7936             One of the complaints referred to on page 3 was filed in 2007 with the Canadian Human Rights Commission regarding difficulty of a visually impaired person ‑‑ obviously one of your clients ‑‑ in using the EPG, the Electronic Program Guide, on the MTS Allstream BDU.

7937             Could you comment on the outcome of this process and what you have and what we might learn from this?

7938             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  I'm sorry, can you just redirect me?

7939             So we are in 100.  I'm just asking which ‑‑

7940             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Yes, page 3 of your July 10.

7941             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Right.

7942             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  At the bottom of the page.

7943             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Right.  The complaint that ‑‑

7944             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  That was filed, not with you but with the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

7945             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Yes.  So was it resolved to his satisfaction?

7946             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Well, I want to know if it was resolved.  What is the outcome of the process and what we could all learn from this.

7947             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Okay.  Actually the process has yet to have an outcome.  At the time we said to the Canadian Human Rights Commission that we were appearing here to discuss the issue, so they are going to proceed.

7948             Now the individual involved also has appeared here and so we ‑‑ he is happy with our descriptive video but for ‑‑

7949             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  The EPG.

7950             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Right.

7951             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.  So basically you are telling me that the Canadian Human Rights Commission has put the process on hold to see what is happening at these hearings?

7952             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Right.  I think they will resurrect it.

7953             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.

7954             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Have they formally put it on hold?  Is there something in writing that says they are postponing the consideration until after the completion of this proceeding?

7955             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Actually they have just ‑‑ on the day that the individual appeared ‑‑ said they would now proceed because they did not think the individual would be able to appear here.

7956             But there is no decision; there is no proceeding per se.

7957             THE CHAIRPERSON:  But it is not stayed pending our decision.  It is going ahead?

7958             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  No, no, no.  It separate.

7959             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.  And it is still pending, that's what you are telling us?

7960             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Yes.

7961             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  It is still pending in front of the Human Rights Commission.

7962             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Yes.

7963             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.

7964             I have to go back to the wireless handset issues.

7965             I understand the discussion you just had with Commissioner Simpson about procurements.  That, as far as I am concerned, are short‑term solutions.  Like right now we are in a position where we have difficulty finding those handsets.  So in your future, but yet near procurement contracts or deliberations you are going to take that into consideration.

7966             What I would like to know is if MTS Allstream is involved, and if so to what extent, with any lobbying or standardization groups to influence in the long term development of handsets to suit the needs of Canadian disabled people?

7967             MR. SHEPHERD:  I stand to be corrected, but I don't believe we are involved with groups that lobby specifically on that issue.

7968             We are a member of CWTA, and CWTA I believe would be the industry association, the broad industry association in Canada that represents the wireless industry.  That would be the main lobbying group we would formally participate in.

7969             I have to say I am not certain if they have specific initiatives around this particular issue.

7970             Most of the rest of the efforts we would be involved in generally would be directly with manufacturers to try to ensure they understand requirements and our needs.  But as a smaller player we wouldn't have necessarily a great deal of influence with them.

7971             I might say I'm not sure any provider in Canada has a great deal of influence with them.  They are really global entities that manufacture for global marketplace.

7972             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  I must tell you that considering my faith in Canadian entrepreneurship in Canada ‑‑ yes, that's redundant, but still, in Canadian entrepreneurship and its success in the past hundred years, I find it very difficult each time I hear that argument.

7973             There are a number of small companies ‑‑ I get the picture.  I understand the picture.  But what I don't understand is why you present it such as a fatality as if nothing can be done.

7974             So I will bring you back to the CWTA.  You said you are not sure that they have undertaken that issue.  Well, as a member of the CWTA, which groups a number of organizations with similar issues that you have to deal with, would you undertake to take that with the CWTA and make it an issue that they will bring forward in their activities?

7975             MR. SHEPHERD:  I will undertake to have our representative on the CWTA Board raise the issue with the CWTA.

7976             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Thank you very much.

7977             With regard to the 911 calling issue, I understand when you are relating to the fact that there is a part of the equation that falls under the responsibility of the public safety agencies, and I fully appreciate that.

7978             I would like to know just how much you are engaging with those agencies to let them know and inform them of the new technologies that could help broaden the facilities to receive 911 calls.

7979             MR. SHEPHERD:  I would have to go back and consult with the people that are directly involved with the PSAP, and I will do that.

7980             I know we have worked very closely with the two major PSAPs in Manitoba.  There is a Winnipeg‑based PSAP which is really run by the city, and then there is a provincial PSAP located in Brandon which really serves the rest of the province.

7981             We have worked with both of those PSAPs in the past on implementation, enhancements, the rollout of wireless 911 services.

7982             I am not certain that we have had discussions on these issues, but I will go back and find out if we have and undertake to let you know what the state of those discussions are.

7983             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Thank you.

7984             Now, regarding your message relay service, is it currently available in both French and English?

7985             MS SOLMAN:  You know what, I'm not sure.  So I will have to take that one away.

7986             I'm guessing yes, but I don't want to guess.

7987             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Thank you.  I appreciate that.

7988             As far as your customer service is concerned, is it available in both French and English?

7989             MS SOLMAN:  We would be able to provide service in both French and English, yes.

7990             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  You would be able to provide it, but are you currently providing it in both French and English?

7991             MS SOLMAN:  Yes.

7992             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Yes.  Your upgrade to your Internet site to enhance accessibility, would you be doing that in both French and English also?

7993             MS SOLMAN:  That's only done in English.

7994             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  So currently your Internet site is only available in English?

7995             MS SOLMAN:  Aspects of the site are available in French and English, but the consumer market site in Manitoba that deals with the products and services related to accessibility is only in English.

7996             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Any plans to also make it available in French?

7997             MS SOLMAN:  No, not right now.

7998             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  So when you say your customer service is also available in French, does that exclude the Internet part of it?

7999             MS SOLMAN:  Yes, that would ‑‑ when you asked me the question on customer service, that would mean if a customer called in and wanted to understand what products and services are available in French, they would be able to have that information given to them in French, but it would be over the phone.

8000             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.  So how does a person who is deaf and French and living in Manitoba and who is a client of MTS reach customer service in a timely fashion?

8001             Certainly they can write a letter, but...

8002             MS SOLMAN:  Through our MRS service.  So they would go through MRS and then that MRS operator would then notify the customer service group.

8003             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Okay.  Given that it is confirmed that it is also available in French?

8004             MS SOLMAN:  Yes, given that it is confirmed.

8005             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Let's assume that for now.  Let's assume that for now.

8006             MS SOLMAN:  Okay.

8007             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  On page 7 of your presentation you mentioned that, you know, people can go to your stores and there is a kiosk and the kiosk will allow customers to check out products before buying.

8008             Paragraph 7.  I'm not sure if I said page 7 or paragraph 7.  It's paragraph 7.

8009             That brought to mind for me an issue I had with a certain retail service who was offering me to use a product for 30 days and if I didn't like it, I could bring it back and either replace it or, you know, just give me back my money.

8010             So I'm wondering if you ever thought about offering people with disabilities ‑‑ well, you could offer it to all your customers, but let's just limit it for now to people with disabilities ‑‑ a 90‑day trial period with, you know, a new device, a new contract and basically within 90 days if they are not satisfied with the device, the contract basically becomes moot, is over; and if they like it and it is past the 91st day and you don't receive any callback, then the contract continues.

8011             Have you ever considered that?

8012             MS SOLMAN:  No, I don't believe we have.

8013             We have rental TTY.  So if you rented one and you didn't like it, you could just bring it back and get a different one.  But we don't have a trial on the outright sale models, no.

8014             The purpose of the kiosk is so that they can come and see what they are buying, right, versus seeing a picture on the website.  And they can actually go for training.

8015             We actually have training, too, in the building that I work in today; that our special needs rep will provide special training to customers who want to come to the building themselves.

8016             If they are not happy with it, we would probably take it back and exchange it for them, but we don't have a policy per se.  So it is something we could consider.

8017             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Yes, will you, please, because quite frankly I certainly appreciate the initiative having people to have hands‑on.  But I think we have all experienced this.  You don't really appreciate all the qualities and the flaws of whatever device you purchase, either in a home appliance or a cell phone, until you are really trying to get something done with it and you are faced with that possibility of doing it.

8018             So given that these devices are, I would say, of quite a high importance to people with disabilities, it may be worthwhile to serve that segment of your clientele in a more dedicated fashion I may say.

8019             MS SOLMAN:  Yes, we can take that away.

8020             COMMISSIONER LAMARRE:  Those are all questions, Mr. Katz.

8021             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

8022             Are there any other questions from the Panel?

8023             Commissioner Duncan...?

8024             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  I have a few questions.

8025             First of all, I wonder if you could help me understand.  I rather had the impression that it could be a progression, you know, from MRS to IPRS and then VRS.

8026             So I am interested to know ‑‑ first of all, I had also read that the TTY technology was not being further enhanced or developed, although I did note your comment that it is available as a portable TTY.

8027             So I'm wondering what is happening with TTY technology.

8028             I also would appreciate understanding, or your correcting my misunderstanding if that is the case, that IPRS wouldn't be an obvious and important advancement that would warrant more attention, because you said you weren't currently looking at it.

8029             MR. SHEPHERD:  I will try and tackle those one at a time.

8030             TTY is a service.  Most of the advancement in it I think has come from improvements in the actual terminal.  That continues to be developed.  New terminals continue to be made available, and generally the terminals ‑‑ you know, one of the things I talked about is some of them are portable and can be used with a wireless handset, for example.

8031             So there continue to be development by the terminal manufacturers of such devices, and as those become available on the market and we refresh our product line we look for opportunities to bring in new models or enhanced models.

8032             Pat talked about how we operate our MRS internally using internal staff.

8033             One of the I guess disadvantages of doing that is that it is a smaller scale operation.  I believe there is technology that can be implemented in an MRS Center, an operations center, you know, a voice to text technology, for example, that can automate some functions that an operator might perform.

8034             We have not implemented that and it is largely I think a question of the scale.  You know, you need a fairly large investment.

8035             So those are some of the advantages that a larger, more consolidated center, whether it is MRS or VRS, can bring to bear as the ability to support larger investments that can be spread over a larger customer base then.

8036             So I think TTY is certainly not static.  There are opportunities ‑‑ and MRS isn't static.

8037             In terms of the IP relay service, it is probably reflective of a gap in our thinking.  It hasn't been something that, you know, I have been aware of.  Perhaps our staff that are more directly engaged in the area are aware of it, but when I inquired of them they had not undertaken any specific initiatives.  So I think it is an opportunity.

8038             I suspect, like the rest of things based on the Internet and these services, it is going to continue to evolve.

8039             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Now, the TTY, I understood initially that people bought their own, but I believe Ms Solman mentioned that you do rent them.

8040             I'm just wondering what those types of units cost and what they rent for.

8041             MR. SHEPHERD:  We can provide you that information.

8042             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

8043             MR. SHEPHERD:  I know we have a range of I think on the order of a dozen to nine different devices and some are rental, some are purchase.

8044             But we will provide that information to you on the specifics.

8045             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  If a customer purchases it from you, would it likely be at a more discounted rate or a discounted rate to what they could get it somewhere else?

8046             Do you offer any special pricing for your TTYs?

8047             MR. SHEPHERD:  I don't think on the purchased TTYs that our pricing would be different.  It would be a market‑based price.

8048             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Okay.  I have a question following on Mr. Stark's suggestions and I was just interested in your comments on that.

8049             He has recommended that:

"All service providers make available brochures in all alternative formats describing amenities for the users with disabilities and how to obtain them."  (As read)

8050             So they want to know everything that is available in a brochure, so they don't have to wonder, go searching, you know, living without knowing something is available to them; that you would have a brochure.

8051             Is that something that you do or would consider doing?

8052             MR. SHEPHERD:  We don't do it today, but I mean if it is a single brochure that aligns all of the accessibility products plus perhaps other regular products, to some extent, we will review it and see if it is feasible.

8053             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Okay.

8054             MR. SHEPHERD:  We will take that away to have a look at.

8055             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  So would you intend by doing that to give us some comment back on whether you thought that was a reasonable suggestion?

8056             MR. SHEPHERD:  Yes, we will review it and we will provide feedback.  I'm not sure what the timeframe would be, Commissioner, but we will review it and commit to come back with an indication of what we found and whether we intend to proceed or not.

8057             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Okay.  We do have a couple of undertakings that we wanted to add.

8058             First of all, this is with respect to providing information accessible format.  So if you can answer my first question, that would be good too; but if that one is longer, well that's fine.

8059             But these ones we would like to have and legal will let you know what the timing is.

8060             We are wanting to know the cost implications of providing the information that you currently provide in alternative formats for persons that are blind in ASL and LSQ, in an audio recording on CD are on your website and in both official languages and in plain text.

8061             Also the cost implications of providing additional information in alternate formats on how to use MTS services, for example, descriptive video, PVR features ‑‑ I could use that lesson myself actually ‑‑ operating information for cell phones, as well, if you could give us some information on that.

8062             MR. SHEPHERD:  We will look for the undertaking in detail.

8063             COMMISSIONER DUNCAN:  Thank you.

8064             Those are my questions, Mr. Chairman.  Thank you.

8065             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Commissioner Duncan.

8066             Does legal counsel ‑‑ they do.

8067             Go ahead.

8068             Me LEHOUX:  Merci.

8069             Can you provide the responses to the undertakings by December 2nd?  Is it reasonable for you?

8070             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  I think we will be able to do that, yes.

8071             I guess maybe there might be information on the brochure for disability products that might take a little longer.

8072             MS LEHOUX:  Just please advise us if it does.

8073             MS GRIFFIN‑MUIR:  Certainly.

8074             MS LEHOUX:  Thank you.

8075             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  This concludes MTS' participation before us.

8076             We will move on to the next group.

8077             Madam Secretary...?

8078             Thank you very much.

8079             THE SECRETARY:  I will now call on GoAmerica Inc. to come to the presentation table.

‑‑‑ Pause

8080             THE CHAIRPERSON:  Madam Secretary, do you want introduce the panel?

8081             THE SECRETARY:  We will now proceed with the presentation by GoAmercia Inc.

8082             Please introduce yourselves.  You have 15 minutes for your presentation.

PRESENTATION / PRÉSENTATION

8083             MR. BRICK (interpreted):  Good morning, my name is Kelby Brick, I am Vice‑President of Regulatory and Strategic Policy at GoAmerica.

8084             We are currently going through a name change.  We are now called Purple Communications Inc., which may explain some of the difference in our original filing and the PowerPoint that you see here.

8085             Here next to me is Stephen Kane.  He is a Senior Manager of Business Development.

8086             We are pleased to be here this morning.  We have been here all week.  We have been able to listen to all of the different presentations and we are very thankful for the opportunity to present to you this morning.

8087             I am going to be touching on certain slides here, some of the different topics that you see.  I am not going to actually read the PowerPoint.  If you feel like there is something that I have touched on too lightly, feel free to go ahead and ask questions later.

8088             We are a United States‑based service provider.  We provide relay services in the States.  We provide several different manners of access to our consumers.  We are the largest provider of text relay.  We are the second largest provider of video relay service.

8089             We are the largest provider of community interpreting services and that includes interpreting for events such as doctors appointments, meetings.  It also includes CART services, real‑time captioning like what you see going on over there on the two screens over there.

8090             We also provide video remote interpreting services.

8091             We also provide State TTY relay services and we are just recently certified to provide Internet captioned telephone relay service.

8092             So we provide several different relay services and each one are unique and they meet a different need.  It is not a matter of transitioning from one service to another.  One is unique to each consumer base that we are trying to meet the needs.

8093             Some consumers are not able to use all of those different types of relay services and we try to meet all of the needs of our consumers.

8094             Our company really has a long history of being part of the community that we serve.  We have a large number of deaf employees, hard of hearing employees.  We have a strong history of consulting with different stakeholders and that is something that we feel strongly about.  It is something that we feel is important and it helps us continue a high quality of service.

8095             For example, you heard some presentations this week about companies ignoring their feedback, the consumers.  They are the consumers and they are not consulting with the consumers.  We work hard to make sure that our company is populated by employees that are deaf.  Therefore, our employees are also our consumers.

8096             We get instant feedback.  We are able to ensure that we meet the needs of the community as it evolves.

8097             We have gone through a lot of consultations with different stakeholders here in Canada, different organizations, different phone companies, different businesses, different agencies.  That is including our text relay partner, Stellar Nordia, who is a call service provider here in Canada.

8098             Our model is unique.  In the service that we provide we make sure that we provide a balanced approach.  We have several call centers all over the country and you have heard some people having concerns that the impact on the interpreting community.  That is true to some extent, but what we have done to address that in the States is we scaled through several centers, what we call balancing the load.

8099             What we do is when we set up a relay center, we set up a community base and of VRS Center at the same time.  So we are able to meet the needs in that community at the same time as meeting the needs of our VRS minutes.

8100             For example, if there is a lot of need in the community that day, maybe we could pull some of the interpreters from the video relay center and put them out into the community.

8101             So it is a balanced approach.  We are able to balance because we have VRS in the community and we are able to pull and give‑and‑take from each.

8102             We would also be able to route those calls to a different center that could handle the calls as well.

8103             We have heard from several different stakeholders here in Canada that we have a public interest mandate.  They want functional equivalency.  That is an American terminology and I will discuss that a little further on the next slide.

8104             Basically as you have seen and as you have heard all week ‑‑ and I believe you understand it ‑‑ the deaf and hard of hearing community want to have access to telephone communication.  They want to be able to make and receive phone calls.

8105             The economic benefit of VRS is really fabulous.  I can tell you many different stories of people who have come to us and said, you know, for the first time in their life they are able to get a job or maybe for the first time in their life ‑‑ or they have been in the same position for 20 years and because of the access to the communication, they are able to be promoted because now they can actually communicate with their coworkers through phone conferences and so forth.

8106             So just giving them access is able to give them a higher standard of life.

8107             We have been able to have innovative technology, video technology, new ways to innovate the equipments, the platform.  We are able to develop all of those and the key to that is it is created to buy a competitive model.  Companies must be incentivized to provide services to upgrade their quality, to hold themselves to a higher standard, to keep up with the technology changes.

8108             As you see every day in the hearing world, technology changes all the time.  We can't afford to stay stagnant in either side.

8109             We are here to ensure that and the only way to ensure that is by having a competitive model.  What that does is it ensures that the consumers have a choice of which provider they want to use.  If a provider doesn't satisfy their needs, they can change to a different provider.  That is a way that it motivates the companies to keep up with technology changes.

8110             Functional equivalency was established in the States when the American Disabilities Act was mandated and the FCC ‑‑ what that does is it mandates the FCC to set up functional equivalency for people, deaf and hard of hearing people, to receive and make phone calls.

8111             In other words, if a hearing person can do that, we have an obligation to ensure that to the deaf and hard of hearing people that they can do it the same way and that we need to develop the appropriate services, the appropriate technology, the appropriate paradigm to ensure that deaf and hard of hearing people have the same access to routine communication that hearing people have.

8112             Now, the terminology here is a little different and that's fine, but the principles are the same.  As many of you already articulated throughout the week, it is our obligation to provide a functionally equivalent service and that deaf and hard of hearing people should not be left out.

8113             You have heard some concerns about the cost of the service.  I think the real question is: What is the cost of doing nothing?

8114             There is a lot of research out there that shows that the economic impact of the deaf and hard‑of‑hearing being left out, excluded from everyday life, is tremendous.

8115             We are not talking about millions of dollars, we are talking about billions of dollars.

8116             We have already seen in the States that phone communication is the key to ensuring that deaf and hard‑of‑hearing people are included, that they are able to become taxpayers and are included in society.

8117             So, truly, this is a good investment for Canada, as well as the companies.  They can receive a return on investment.

8118             Now you have so many customers who are not getting services because they have no need for them.  They don't need broadband.  They don't need a phone.  They don't need them because those types of things are not accessible to them.  They are not things they need.

8119             They don't need a phone, because they are not going to use the phone.

8120             They don't need broadband, because there is no VRS here.

8121             So as we grow this in Canada, you will be able to see the economic benefit to those companies with new customer growth.

8122             What we are proposing, with all due respect, is that the first thing you do is that the CRTC officially decides that we must have a national relay service that includes video relay services, and an internet text relay service as well.

8123             Once that has been decided, we are suggesting that you bring in an expert to provide a specific analysis.

8124             There is so much information that is already out there, that is already available, you just need someone to bring it all into one place, so that you can see all of the different feedback that is out there, all of the different technologies that are out there, all of the different ways of setting things up that are out there.  Just bring it all here, so you can see all of that in one report.

8125             Naturally, there will be some tweaks that you will have to make to make it effective here in Canada.  One of the ideas might be to have a third party administrator of the funds that are brought in from the phone companies and broadband providers.  Those funds would be used for the reimbursement of relay services that certified providers would be providing here in Canada.

8126             Certification is a way that you can ensure that there is a competitive model here in Canada.

8127             You noticed that I mentioned a certification process.  That is one way that ‑‑ you don't have to deal with fly‑by‑night providers that want to come in and just set up and get the money and not provide quality services.  That is something we have in the States.  The FCC has set up some criteria that you might want to adopt here in Canada.

8128             Again, it is a way to ensure quality services.

8129             Some of the criteria are that you have to have enough capital to provide the service and keep it going.

8130             You have to have current platforms, you have to have experience in managing call centres and those types of relay services.

8131             You have to have a longstanding relationship with your consumer base.

8132             You also have to have expertise in majority and minority languages.

8133             In the States, we are providing ASL to English services, as well as Spanish to ASL services.

8134             There are a lot of parallels here in Canada with LSQ in French, and ASL to English here in Canada, as well.

8135             The process is similar.  Naturally, we would have to take into account the specific nuances that are different here in Canada, but, really, the principle is the same.  The fundamental part of that is the same.  We are providing two languages in the States; therefore, in the long term, I don't see a negative impact here in Canada.  I actually see a positive impact.

8136             I would like to explain a little bit about what I really ‑‑ I have an example of how the competitive model has really shown in the States ‑‑ we have really had a lot of technological advancement.  What I am holding in my hand is the mobile video phone, the MVP.  It is revolutionary for deaf and hard‑of‑hearing people.

8137             The old video phone, what we have now, is a box, and you set it up in a specific room, in a specific location.  If I leave that room, I can't make or receive phone calls.  I'm stuck.  I am wired to that room.

8138             If someone is calling me and I'm not in that room, I miss that phone call.

8139             With the mobile video phone, I can carry it around.  I can take it with me.  I can put it in my bag.  I can make and receive phone calls on the road.

8140             I have an example where, for me, it really ‑‑ it really is transformative for me.  I was on a business trip, and I had a layover ‑‑ and if I was on the road, it used to be that if I got a message that said, "I need to talk to you right now, it's really important," I would have to wait until I got home.  I couldn't do any business on the road.

8141             This summer I was on a business trip, and I had a layover, and I got a message that said, "I need to talk to you.  It's urgent."  I was able to make a phone call in the airport, walking from one gate to the next.  I did my business, and when it was done, I just put it right back in my bag.

8142             That may not be a big deal to you, because you see people all the time on cell phones making phone calls, doing business, while they are moving all the time.  But, for us, the deaf and hard‑of‑hearing community, that is something we have never been able to experience.  We have never been able to make a phone call on the road.

8143             That is something that we need to pursue, to make sure that we have functional equivalency here, to make sure that deaf and hard‑of‑hearing people here are not falling behind.

8144             To be honest with you, we are ready to go.  We would be ready to go tomorrow.  We would be able to turn the switch and go.  We have the platform, we have the technology, we have the employees ‑‑ we are ready to go.

8145             It would take a little bit of time to develop the specific needs that match the Canadian needs.  Your languages and your labour pools, and all of that, that would require time to be scalable, and we could do that.

8146             It's not a problem.  It's not a problem that we foresee having a huge impact.  Like I said, we have expertise in providing majority and minority languages, and we already provide 911 services in the States.

8147             You have heard a lot this week about the difficulties in 911 services here in Canada.  One person even said that 911 services aren't going to be available for another 10 or 15 years through r